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arty-cakes · 1 year

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Mad and angry at how these two joke side characters try so hard to be heteronormative but they really aren't and that's where most of their misery comes from. not all of it but most of it, like it very much keeps them in the cycle, because they seem desperate to find a happy storybook ending and this is how they think they'll find it, by trying to be like the same characters that found that happiness. its never addressed but also painfully obvious with how much they don't fit in with the other npcs dear god these characters are queer coded to hell i could write an essay (i accidentally did)

its not even like bretta and zote are straight cis characters these two are bi and aro canonically but its more to do with the gender roles they're trying to replicate, and failing. they suck at it. he is not this emotionally stoic resilient lone knight he is in fact continuously fighting his emotional pain and if you give him the right attention he will stay forever. he'll get angry that you saved him or that he needed your help because YOU dont fit in his story. she's not a forgiving accepting loving damsel in distress she can take care of herself great and will also drop you like a hat if she sees even one flaw in you. because then YOU dont fit her story either. they care so much about their stories because they reinforce the identity they think they're supposed to have but they're also so disconnected with themselves BECAUSE of these gender roles that they dont realize it makes them miserable

the biggest cause for this is that they are lonely isolated individuals and dont understand or know enough about real people so they have to go off their storybooks and it only keeps them alone. its like you have to be stubborn about saving them and staying by their side so they can get that chance to change and thats exactly what the knight does. its stubborn as hell it will save them again and again and it will fight their dumbass crushes as many times as it takes to make them realize what they're doing is painful. and bretta gets that chance, she leaves the town that isolated her and goes to find something better, most importantly she gets experience. zote gets to stay alive, which is the best thing you can do for him. because now he might get to face his pain, whereas in death he never gets to overcome it, just escape it

its also very funny that when the game pushes them together in this fake relationship its purposely depicted as completely ridiculous and an obvious parody and you also have the chance to beat it to the ground multiple times. whereas the two more meaningful love stories that you get to help happen are mlm and wlw and completely unapologetic about it this game is GAY

#long post #not normal about them sry sry. they're just your typical everyday knights and maidens lalala #like its been a while since i played hk so i could be off but this is the impression i get from both of them everytime #they're a criticism of traditional fairytale love stories and tbh #im not the best when it comes to gender analysis im like clueless about my own. but i am at least 100% about the fact that #brettas ver of their relationship is a parody. it only exists to make fun of inane fairytale romances #so bretta's character says a lot about gender and zote's says a lot about trauma #both things that exist because they were isolated. love loses #idk but they dont seem like surface level characters to me at all. there's always something to say #on top of them being there to have something to laugh at which i do girl.. i do. they're so silly #but i always felt like there was something that tied bretta and zote together aside from their delusions and i guess its this #btw im tired im gonna rewatch tlou s1 its been a few months also its really good.. apocalyptic media my weakness

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ratcandy · 2 years

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My Issues With The Vessel Zote Theory

because I keep off-handedly mentioning that I don’t believe in it and am willing to argue but haven’t actually given my points and We Just Can’t Let That Stand.

And I’m going to start off with some quick disclaimers of I SWEAR I PROMMY I’M NOT DOING THIS TO ARGUE IN FAVOR OF HIM BEING A NOSK, I genuinely have issues with this theory and I wanna line em out. I’m not arguing for him being a nosk here I prommy I swear. I can put my biases aside I can

And disclaimer 2: If you want to go on with the headcanon that he’s a vessel after all this, or if you don’t read it at all and just wanna keep that headcanon, that’s totally valid!!! I’m not trying to bash on anyone that believes in this, nor is my intent to be hostile at all. With how vague Hollow Knight’s lore is and how just about anything is arguable to an extent... honestly, he very well could be, and I could just be talking about nonsense. I just have my own reservations about it, n I wanna share em. Because I like to argue I love debate what can I say BUT JUST TO EMPHASIZE. I do not intend to come off as aggressive in any way . I’m not targeting anyone individually, I’m just lining out the common arguments I’ve seen and my own arguments against them.

OK. Epic. Got it

Les go. Long post ahead

Obvious points that I could mention but are quite easily forgivable, especially if going specifically with an “early/failed” vessel theory, so I won’t really argue them: - The whole voice/mind/will situation (could’ve been figured out afterwards/later on) - The Mouth (Lumped in with the ‘voice’ part of the former argument; I will not forgive arguments of it being a mutation, though, because then there should’ve been at least ONE more vessel in the baby pit with a noticeable mouth) (Though I’m also not sure how he would develop a mouth like that... considering who the parents would be if he was a vessel? Neither the Pale King nor White Lady have a visible mouth like his, so? Where come from) - Color Pink (It��s not as noticeable in game, and in official art this isn’t portrayed at all. But Zote’s shell, if color-picked from his sprites, is a pinkish color as opposed to a vessel’s white. Which would make absolutely no sense if he was a child of two Pale Beings - how in the got damn would you get pink baby from two blindingly white beings of literal whiteness. If mutation argument see above)

- Those two precepts about Fathers/Mothers or whatever (I mean, honestly, without Zote looking like a vessel, I don’t think anyone would even make the connection. I personally see this as a red herring, but also I totally get why it could be seen as referencing the Pale King/White Lady, so eh.)

- Pronouns (He can be Gendered Child 2 if he wants even if he was born a vessel, I don’t see why not)

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Points that I am Now Going To Argue At Great Lengths:

If vessel, Zote void. This is established to be how vessel work. How vessels were made to work. Vessels void. We agree on that. I hope. Zote not void.

If not void, he could still be a child of the Pale King & White Lady (though the... earlier ‘mutations’ are kinda ??? on how that happened) but not a vessel. Vessels were made for the purpose of containing the Radiance. That is their sole purpose. Hence why they were made with void, as PK figured that would work to contain the Radiance, so long as thoughts/will weren’t involved. A simple child of both of them could... I guess still be seen as an “early vessel attempt,” but... how? Why? Why would they think that would work to contain the Infection? If we’re assuming that PK found out fairly quickly how the Infection works, and realized he needed something to contain it that couldn’t think nor will for anything, why would his first go-to be to just have a child? Without void involvement at all? Did he assume a child between him and WL would just be A-OK to contain the infection due to Higher Being Prowess? And if so, how’d he learn he was wrong without Zote dying/being infected? unless you mean to tell me Zote is immune because his philosophy of “simply don’t dream lol” actually deadass worked

Arguments against Zote being void because I know I’m going to have to prove that now: The easiest and most blatant way to tell a void creature apart from other bugs in the game is the particle effects. Or to tell an infected creature apart from an uninfected one. Infected bugs have orange particles, uninfected have white, and void creatures have black.

Another easy way to tell void creatures apart from non-void creatures is the sound effect that plays when void is struck. Listen closely when Ghost hits the Collector or even their own Shade - there’s a distinct “woosh” sound that doesn’t match the ‘smack’ other hits have.

Zote has neither the particles nor the sound effect. If fighting him in the Colosseum, he gives off white particles. The wooshy void effect isn’t heard, either. Seems pretty cut n dry, right?

Now what I see people mention. And what drives me insane. Is the Grey Prince Zote battle. The only and I’m talking the only thing that points towards Zote being vote at all is the particle effect when he enters the arena and when he dies. Throughout the battle, he’s still giving off the white particle effect when struck. The wooshy void sound is still not heard. Not even acknowledging that This Is A Fake Zote. That is not Zote the Mighty, a knight of great renown. That is a fictional version of him made up by Bretta. Nothing that happens with him in that dream should even be considered as canon real totally valid outside of “Wow, Bretta sure thinks about Zote in Ways.” I will stick by this until I die. Why does he have black particles when he shows up/dies? Gonna be real with u chief, I have no idea. Because it makes no sense. The only things I can think of would either be 1) In a meta-gamey way, Team Cherry thought it looked more dramatic for the funny boss battle and didn’t think it through or 2) The FUNNIER option: Bretta is a fanfic writer and she’s writing about an edgy dark prince or whatever. She wouldn’t know what void is, so that’s off the table, but I’m just saying she could so totally be like HE blEEDS black BLOOD (it’s darkness) (there’s a darkness inside him) . hemolymph dark as night. very beautiful, very powerful

Foreseeable counterargument someone could bring up is that the kingsmoulds react similarly - White particles until killed, where there’s black mixed with white. And we know the kingsmoulds are made of void. My argument against that point is that what we’re hitting is the kingsmould’s armor, and when they die, then we see the black mixed with the white. Because armor begone. Like 90% of Zote is hittable in the GPZ battle (as in he has no armor), so that excuse wouldn’t work there. And this is also in the Pale King’s ... mind, or something. Honestly, the fact that we see void in there at all is more intriguing than anything,

Alright, listen. One line from a real old kickstarter post by Team Cherry is a dead giveaway that Zote was probably going to be a vessel - or related to Ghost - in some way, at least in an initial draft: “Claiming to be a rival of the Hollow Knight and his superior in every way, Zote has supposedly come to Dirtmouth to defeat the evil creatures lurking in the depths and find the source of the poison.”

My issue with taking this at face value and just running with it has to do with. The fact that this kickstarter post was made in 2014. This is before they even figured out who the Hollow Knight was. The “Hollow Knight” they are referring to here is not the Hollow Knight today. They’re talking about Ghost. This is more obvious in the Nailsmith’s character reveal, wherein it states: “But [the Nailsmith’s] neglect has impact. His discarded nails have spread wide through Hallownest, clutched tight in the hands of creatures possessed. Only in the Hollow Knight's broken nail does he at last see true potential. Distant and difficult to achieve, but it is in there, waiting - a blade to be honed beyond all others, to be forged into a form so brilliant it transcends its metal and becomes myth.”

...And it’s followed by a picture of Ghost next to the Nailsmith.

They also misgender Ghost, and we know TC is pretty adamant now about the vessels having they/it pronouns.

What I’m saying is I don’t take any of the old kickstarter posts to be relevant anymore lmao

If Zote vessel, why is local guy not doing anything to convince me of this

By that I mean... look at how he wanders around in the game. Saying he was called here by the Hollow Knight, like Ghost was, why isn’t he doing anything to further the goal of usurping them? You’d think he’d want to - local bastard touts himself as a hero everywhere he goes. This would be an actual real chance.

But... Closest he gets to a dreamer is that one spot in the City of Tears, and that time he gets trapped in a web in Deepnest. He’s never in Fog Canyon, never even at the Black Egg temple, and instead he’s, uh... at the Colosseum, at one point.

Easy argument here is that he’s just incompetent. Okay, fair enough.

What about him kinda mentioning that he’s from a faraway land or whatever?

Oh, well an excuse there is that he’s a Bitchass Liar. Sure, okay.

How about his thoughts/dialogue? Does he mention or even think about being here for any specific duty or purpose to fulfill? Even vaguely hint at going after the dreamers, or defeating the Hollow Knight, or anything like that at all? Well, sure! There’s that grand old promise he made!... To, uh! Himself...? “A promise of glory! Glory for I, Zote the Mighty! I never doubted myself, never faltered, and now I have achieved everything I desired.”

Well that doesn’t quite give us anything. Seems more like we were led to believe that, with the hints of his promise earlier, perhaps he was deeply rooted into the lore-- only for it to turn out TC was pointing and laughing at us like Haha . You really fell for it huh. Idiot. Stupid. Silly. /j

What I’m getting at is that nothing about what he says/thinks or actively does in game actually... points to him being a vessel. Unless you want to argue that one line of dialogue of “Being overly devoted to one's duties is no virtue” - in which you argue that Maybe He Doesn’t Want To Do That Hollow Knight Shit. Which... I mean. If you want to stretch with everything else considered, sure. Nothing else in his dialogue/thoughts hints at that being the duty he’s referring to, though. His thoughts in that moment don’t even follow up on that idea, as he’s just thinking about the rain.

I’m sure this could all be argued one way or another, though. TC do love being vague as got damn possible about their lore so who really knows

If Zote vessel what the hell is Hornet doing

Shorter point, but Honestly this confuses me a lot if going with the Zote vessel theory. W. Why is she not. Killing him. Why hasn’t she killed him. She kills vessels, she has no issue killing vessels, that’s a whole thing. She also “feels no sadness at a weakling’s demise” or what have you. The only reason she lets Ghost survive is because they proved themselves as strong, and they could be capable of actually stopping the infection.

Local zote is notoriously not strong. If local Zote was a vessel, w. Why is he not killed by Hornet. We know she’s capable.

She doesn’t mention him, either. Nothing like “there’s two of you wandering about” or “there was another, but he’s a slippery bitch and somehow got away from me” the latter of which I CANNOT imagine,

Only possible explanation here was that she reasoned Oh No He Couldn’t Be for reasons listed above, and she just dismisses the idea entirely. I guess

Narratively... why?

Zote is a character that’s supposed to be a foil to Ghost. Zote exists to be a contrast - he’s supposed to be a “flawed” version of Ghost. A cheap offbrand version, if you will.

On first glance, they look physically the same, but Zote’s differences are meant to highlight aspects of Ghost. Zote has asymmetrical horns, he’s hunched over, his shell is that off-white pink color, and he’s got a mouth. Ghost is symmetrical, upright, and pure white.

Zote’s loud and chatty, whereas Ghost doesn’t talk at all. He’s self-centered and seemingly uncaring of others, whereas Ghost... if they save him, are shown to be the opposite. (As a side note, this is why it makes me a little... A little mad when people say Zote serves no purpose. His whole purpose in the game is to characterize Ghost, that’s what a foil is. If he’s saved, that characterizes Ghost as someone with sympathy, or perhaps not entirely hollow. Brushing by him and not saving him then characterizes Ghost as just as selfish and uncaring as he is, because they don’t know anything about him in that timeline. In a timeline where Zote isn’t saved, Ghost just left a bug to die Because... why? They don’t know Zote is an asshole there. They just let an innocent bug die. And walked onward without pause. Without saving Zote, he as a foil doesn’t exist. No character then really serves to characterize Ghost. They don’t really do anything else out of their way to give them character outside of the flower quest, I guess. Even sparing the Nailsmith doesn’t really count here, as if they brush past and not kill him, that doesn’t necessarily mean they spared him. They just didn’t follow his order. It’s not integral to what they’re supposed to be doing, so why should they? Anyway side tangent done.)

A lot of Zote’s “story” is also built up in a way that almost leads you into thinking there’s something deeper at work, but then turns around and slaps you for thinking that with his ending. His “promise,” which builds up intrigue, turns out then to be “a promise to himself for glory.” It’s nothing actually interesting. It’s intentionally disappointing.

To me, and this one is the only truly opinionated point rather than relying more on what’s objective, it doesn’t make... a lot of sense for him to be a vessel with the narrative that TC has given us. You could have a foil that’s also a vessel, and you can make a vessel that’s supposed to be disliked, but for Zote specifically it just... I feel like it’d be the wrong idea? If you made Zote a vessel, I think he’d fit more into the role of a parallel/mirror than a foil. Coming from the same place but branching off, then. Having more similarities than the other realizes, having somewhat similar paths (coming from the void, leaving Hallownest, then coming back at the Hollow Knight’s call)... But still being different people by the end of the day.

I just don’t really see it that way.

N furthermore, everything about this bastard is fake. Whether that be blatant lying or just his delusions of grandeur. Even his actual hard boss battle, GPZ, is fake. It’s not real. So why would he be a real vessel, despite everything else?

Why should we even believe his appearance is real? Why shouldn’t we believe he’s a nos-- [I’m shot and killed]

AAAAAAAND THAT’s all. Yea. I said the Zote things. I don’t think he’s is a vessel. N that’s it. U believe whatever u want though I think it’s a fun idea to play with, don’t get me wrong!! That’s a given seeing as I started Tinnitus!! I j. Well yknow

Ok bye. I didn’t reread over this if it’s full of clunky wording or typos ‘m sorry I’m tired

#clamtalk #zote #zote the mighty #hollow knight #VERY long ramble #tl;dr: I'm tired. I don't think zote's a vessel because it doesn't add up enough for me. Lore and narrative wise #but at the same time . y'all believe whatever u want #the hk lore vague as fuck and I'm just spouting what makes sense in my head #if i need to clarify anything more u let me know I'm always ready to do so #or if u just want to tell me I'm wrong that's ok too #hollowed bugs

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