On Episode 5 of "Hazbin Hotel", the fandom, and the treatment of Charlastor shippers

I'm getting really tired of all of the "Haha, I always hated Charlastor, we won, and you lost, fuck you!" people on Tumblr being rude, mean, or even downright mocking and cruel to the people who like Charlastor. No, I don't think that "Vivziepop hates Charlastor", or that there was some sort of conspiracy to "torpedo the Charlastor ship". If she did, she wouldn't have said, to paraphrase, "ship anyone you want from the show". (Hell, she once paired Vaggie and Angel Dust.)

Charlastor shippers have already known for a long time that Charlastor was never going to be canon, so Episode 5 doesn't really change anything we didn't already know. Shipping is supposed to be about fun, not "winning". If you ship Charlastor, that's okay. If you don't ship or like Charlastor, that's okay, too. However, making posts or comments saying "fuck you" to Charlastor shippers, or tagging anti-Charlastor posts as "#charlastor", is deeply rude and offensive.

Harassing or bullying Charlastor shippers is also unacceptable.

I don't think Vivziepop would approve, and as a "fandom oldie" (30+) who also has friends in animation, me and my personal friends are going to keep liking and shipping Charlastor, regardless of what is - or is not - "canon". I suggest other Charlastor shippers do the same.

Been seeing a lot of love for Lucifer's snake form. And don't get me wrong, I love it. It's a classic, and snakes are awesome, but I feel the need to remind everyone just how many different animals he transformed into.

I wanna be able to turn into an octopus during a fight.

(Maybe it's good that I can't. I don't exactly get into fights now, but if I could turn into an octopus, I might start throwing down)

I'm really tired of seeing people use the "AroAce is a spectrum" argument when it comes to Alastor, especially now that the show is getting more popular. I just want to talk it about it a bit, since y'know, I'm AroAce and have a lot of opinions on it.

For reference, I've been a on and off fan on Hazbin Hotel for a long time. The pilot came out around the time I was in middle school and it was a large part of my personality for my younger years. Obviously I fell off it as I got older, but my point still stands.

Alastor was the first time I ever saw a canon AroAce character (that I knew off, I wasn't aware peridot was AroAce), and It was amazing for me. I never got to see myself be represented in a show like that, and even if he wasn't explicitly AroAce, having the creator say he was was amazing, since a lot of the AroAce characters at the time were just popular headcanons.

So you could understand my disappointment when I'd go into fandom spaces and see him be shipped with other characters, be drawn in suggestive ways, and overall his canon sexuality be ignored. Now before you comment and say "Well, Aromanticism and Asexuality are spectrums, so there's a chance he's romance and sex favorable" I want to ask you a genuine question.

Do you think that Alastor is romance and sex favorable because in the show, pilot, or any other official media he is depicted to be that way? OR, do you just think he's romance and sex favorable because it gives you an excuse to write fanfic of him where he's in romantic and sexual relationships?

I have a feeling a lot of you believe it's the second one, but would never admit it. I haven't watched the pilot in a while, but after watching through the show, there hasn't been a single point where he is shown to be romance or sex favorable. Nothing hints to that or points to that in any way.

Because ultimately this isn't about making sure you are representing his character correctly, this is about you guys disillusioning yourself into believing he's romance and sex favorable to that you guys can put him as close to allonormativity without being called out for it. You do not care about real life AroAce people who are romance and sex favorable, you care about your own comfort. And it's easier to imagine Alastor as romance and sex favorable when in reality, he's only been depicted as the exact opposite.

Do you know how I know most of ya'll don't care about real life sex and romance favorable AroAce people? Because AroAce discourse is never ending on this platform. Not too long ago there was a poll going around that had people arguing on whether or not cishet Aromantic men were valid. Aromantic people are constantly villainized and treated like monsters for having consensual loveless relationships. Asexual people constantly have their own experienced denied to their faces, and are told time and time again that they don't actually exist. AroAce people are constantly having to prove that they deserve to be in the LGBTQ+ community, and every few months there is some stupid fucking person who created discourse about a what type of AroAce gets to be in the community, just to divide us and make us feel like shit. And you know what?

You don't care.

You completely ignore or are oblivious to real life discourse surrounding the identity you claim to be an expert on. You ignore real life AroAce people who tell you you're wrong, all while going to war over your right erase an identity you really know nothing about. You would never go this hard for real life sex and romance favorable AroAce people who are constantly told they don't exist, they don't belong in the community that supposed to except them, and that they are either mentally ill or damaged. You don't care about real life AroAce people, because unless they're Tumblr sexy men, they don't matter to you.

I acknowledge that romance and sex favorable AroAce people don't get represented enough, but at some point you have to acknowledge that it less about accurately representing the character, and more about changing characters who are canonically sex/romance repulsed so that allonormative people can be more comfortable with them. If you're someone who's AroAce, and you whole heartedly believe he's romance and sex favorable, good for you, I'm not gonna argue with you.

But if you are not AroAce, and you believe he's romance and sex favorable, I want you to reevaluate why that is. I'm not saying you can't ship him, or write your fanfic, or draw your art. I'm not the police. But please try and see it from a point of view of someone other than your own. Please try and understand why taking one of the very few canonically AroAce characters and weaponizing our own identity against us so you can justify the continuous eraser of said identity is kinda annoying.

Also please don't get heated in the comments, at the end of the day this is about a fictional cannibal, I just have too many opinions.

It doesn’t matter if we knew them or not. Someone is DEAD due to bullying and harassment over SHIPPING in the Hazbin Hotel fandom. That you’re even trying to defend the fandom over this, rather than the person who lost their life, is DISGUSTING, DJ.

Out of ALL the things you could say about how this entire situation sickens you, you say “it’s sick you would use her death to fuel your dislike of the fandom”.

Are you serious?!

Hazbin Hotel Episode 4 Discussion:

I’ve seen a lot of nasty posts floating around today criticizing Vivzie and the show. I’m not here to discredit your feelings, but I think that the darker tone of episode 4 merits some constructive discussion beyond a knee-jerk, pearl-clutching reaction.

From what I’ve seen, the biggest complaint from viewers, myself included, is that this emotional episode with some fairly intense depictions of SA/r*pe was not prefaced with a content warning aside from the usual small text in the top left corner. I truly do believe Amazon should correct this going forward so that viewers can feel better prepared for tone shifts between episodes. That being said, here are my defenses of the show.

Hazbin Hotel has had a huge fan following since the pilot release back in 2019, which set the tone of the show. Between the pilot and Addict music video, people had a pretty clear indication of the adult themes that would be present in the project moving forward. The show is set in Hell, the place where the world’s worst sinners are trapped in the afterlife. This is not an excuse, this is an explanation. There are going to be several characters with tainted morality, some of whom are irredeemable. That’s why they’re in Hell. This show is not meant to glorify sins, but to shine a light on flawed, relatable characters who will grapple with ethics and other struggles and come out changed in the end.

“I can’t believe Angel doesn’t leave his situation and stays stagnant.” Have you ever lived through/witnessed abuse? It is never this easy to sever ties with an abuser. They position themselves in power to control and manipulate, and many times, it’s not physically safe to get away from them. Also, this has been ONE EPISODE, you cannot expect a character with deep trauma to be totally different after a 20-30 minute episode. Angel’s character arc will take time, but his interaction with Husk at the end is an important first step in that direction.

“So Angel is supposed to just get over his trauma because he and Husk sang a song about it?” No. If that was your takeaway, I’m truly sorry you missed the point. Husk is the only person who’s been raw and blunt with Angel (on screen) about dropping the Angel Dust persona and being Anthony. Angel is used to having to put on a flawless, sexy act at all times, so much so that that’s how people really believe he is at all times. Husk sees through this mask Angel developed to protect himself and tell him through their song that imperfect and broken as he feels, Angel isn’t alone in struggling with feelings of powerlessness and addiction. He’s not comparing his loss of overlord status to Angel’s horrible SA, he’s finding common ground and empathizing (the best way a Hellbound soul can). This song wasn’t a solution, it was a gateway to vulnerability and the beginning of change for both characters.

“We’re expected to just ship Huskerdust after Angel has done nothing but sexually harass and push Husk’s boundaries?” No. That’s absolutely the wrong reason to ship anything. While it’s true that in the first three episodes, Angel sees Husk as eye candy who might be able to distract him from his suffering, episode 4 brings a necessary shift in their dynamic. Angel is used to everyone around him wanting Angel Dust, the pornstar. But for the first time, someone doesn’t want that coveted persona, and he can’t comprehend this. Angel has no control over anything except the act he keeps up, so he clings to it as a false sense of power. It’s only after Husk tells him that he likes Angel for everything he is off camera that Angel starts to treat Husk with respect, which will pave the way for any future Huskerdust shipping.

You don’t have to agree with what I’ve written, and I absolutely don’t blame you if you’ve realized this show is not content you can comfortably consume, but please understand that depicting difficult material is not the same as glorifying or excusing it. This episode was hard for me too, because I care about Angel Dust, and I am so eager to watch his growth as the show continues. My heart goes out to anyone struggling from triggering this episode caused. I hope you’re able to safely navigate away from this show while respecting the viewers who continue to watch.

Honestly, as an asexual, it feels infinitely more respectful to me to treat Alastor as just another character, than to put him in this exclusive category of "can't write smutfic about him at all"

Nothing is wrong with being majorly squicked out by the idea of him having sex, or being uncomfortable with people that don't write Alastor as explicitly ace. That's a universal fandom thing.

But it feels like you're trying to protect this ideal of asexuality at the expense of both fun, and real ace people (that might want to read and write about a character they relate to)

It actually kind of bothers me that like 90% of hazbin and helluva ships are straight or guy x guy. In terms of main lesbian pairings we basically only have Chaggie. and like, don't get me wrong, I love Chaggie, but it just feels kind of imbalanced, you know? there's just...like...so many gay guys. and so few lesbians. Idk I'm just obsessed with demon Yuri and I need more of it.

I'm not saying every critism of hazbin hotel is invalid, but I do certainly belive that the discourse surrounding it would be a lot healthier if adults who only watched children's cartoons stopped expecting it to behave like a children's cartoon.

New flavor of anti spotted

“I don’t think harassment is ok when cosplayers cosplay villain characters, but I will excuse harassment if I see anyone shipping that abusive character with their victim”

like ok you don’t have to like it but at the end of the day the characters are fictional

Hazbin hotel controversy is always like " YOU ARE A RAPIST " and its cunt moth man

OKAY SO!

I should make a note that I will not tolerate straight-up Valentino bashing on this blog. If you reblog my posts to go YEAH BUT HE'S XYZ THING AND I HOPE HE DIES then you can FUCK THE FUCK OFF.

Valentino is my favorite character. This is a complicated thing to explain to people.

Yes, I recognize he's a piece of shit. He's literally the Heel. This is literally Hell. There is not a single person in the cast that is an Innocent uwu Baby except Charlie.

He deserves to be mistreated but he is also not a one-note monster and he is not the worst of the Vees. Period.

Oh, look, yet another fandom discourse thread about Alastor being aromantic asexual on Reddit. Can people stop doing this? People have been making the same post over and over again for weeks.

I am saying this with as much malice in my heart as I can muster: if you redesign Valentino to be 'ugly' in your eyes? To be fat in a way that you find unattractive and 'disgusting'? You missed the entire point of his fucking character.

You missed the point of Angel. You fundamentally misunderstand abuse and how it operates. And not to catastrophise but you have thinking that is actively dangerous and puts you at risk of being manipulated, abused, or being disbelieving of those who have been abused themselves. You also have A LOT to unpack in how you see fat people and those you find unattractive.

If "Valentino" the narative device was real? He'd be an irredeemable person. But he's not real. He is a villain written to be the charming abuser. The real kind that make all your friends not believe you when you say they abuse you. The kind that isolates you 'for your own good'. The kind where you ignore the red flags because while the cold spots are cold the warm spots seem like the sun. The kind where society gives them the benefit of the doubt BECAUSE they are attractive. The kind of real abuser that use their attractiveness as a shield and a lure.

To act like every abuser is a 'fat greasy creepy uncle' is to ignore all the ways abusers hide themselves. It is Crystal Clear within the story that Valentino love bombed Angel and even now the facade had dropped? Still has moments of 'loving him' in order to control him. It misses the entire point of Angel's character, his struggles and what he represents, to remove Valentino's deceptive charm.

Anyway saw an absolutely gobsmacking redesign that made me question peoples basic media comprehension skills and now I need to lie down.

Tldr: Redesigning is fun but go fuck yourself if you make an abuser character palatable to you by removing design nuance and making them the fat ugly abuser stereotype.

Building off what I just posted about Alastor, I wanted to link to this post I made a while ago for people to read.

This is mainly because I don't want people to think this is something I only care about now, when in reality I've been talking about it for a while.

Also while I'm here I'll add on some things:

I've gotten asks saying that Viv only claimed Alastor was ace and not aro. The person who claimed he was aro was an ex employee. I want to acknowledge that, however my point still stands since a lot of people (myself included) view him as AroAce. However, either way, I should've done a little more research before posting that, and for that I apologize.

I also think a lot of people are focusing too much on the shipping aspect of my post, which wasn't my overall point, and I should've made that more clear. In reality, I was upset over the fact that people use "Asexuality and Aromanticism are spectrums" to excuse shipping characters that are heavily considered to be romance/sex repulsed. In my personal opinion, it comes off less as you trying to accurately represent a character, and more so you trying to justify putting them in heteronormative situations. Because of this, it seems like a lot of people only care about the fact that Aromanticism and Asexuality are spectrums when they can put them as close to allonormativity as possible without technically erasing their identity. It just comes off as weird and makes me uncomfortable, especially when the representation we have is already so limited.

I also want to acknowledge that most of the blame for this is on Viv herself rather than the fandom, since she doesn't really seem keen on confirming or denying his aromanticism. According to a few other post I've read, Viv in the past has refused to confirm if Alastor is Aromantic because she's afraid of backlash. I can't say for sure this is true, but honestly I would believe it since Alastor is a Tumblr sexy man and one of the few characters a lot of the female audience base think they can ship themselves with, which keeps him popular. This makes me upset since she doesn't shy away from confirming the sexuality of other characters, again like Angle Dust and Charlie, who I'm pretty sure she's confirmed are gay and bi (again I could be wrong). This comes off as her wanting to reap the rewards of having an aromantic character, without facing any of the backlash she'd know she'd get if she'd just confirm it.

I know the post hasn't been up for long, but I think I'm gonna delete it soon since I do want to write for Hazbin Hotel, and I really don't want people constantly coming to me with this discourse. So, I'll keep this up so people know, and I'll delete the post later.

Your account is so cringe and a prime example of hazbin hotel fans being embarassing.

Okay, and???🤨 According to your account, you clearly hate women.. got anything you wanna say about that?🙄

With Hazbin getting released, I just have a few thoughts because I'm tired and internet culture/etiquette online these days has gotten out of hand.

If you do not like something, keep it to yourself. If you don't have anything nice to say, just move on and don't interact with it. Or instead of making blatant, hateful statements, open a discussion so everyone's perspectives can be heard and seen. Please. For the sake of other people who find joy in different types of media. In a shocking turn of events, Hazbin Hotel is not real. It's not based on true events, it's not made to be some social discussion, it's made for entertainment purposes.

If you are not entertained, you're allowed to leave the show and find something that DOES entertain you. Please stop shitting on other people for enjoying something.

Stop shitting on the actors, stop shitting on the writers, stop criticizing this show frame by frame, moment by moment. The full season isn't even out! People are so quick to judge and assume things about this show. Before it even came out and things were leaked, people immediately jumped to conclusions and were sending death threats and hate to creators and if you were not aware, that isn't normal behavior.

Viv has her issues, sure. We all do. We're human.

I just want to enjoy a show I've been so hyped about for months now that just brings me a little joy in a world where it's hard to find. I want to enjoy it without scrolling and every other post seeing criticism, hate, or 'I like this but--' No buts. You can like something without tearing down something else. If you think something could have been better, that's what fanfiction is for. That's what fanart can be for. Make the content you want to see. And if you can't make the content you want to see, go looking for it or shocker, just ignore the show. Ignore the content. It's not hurting anyone else.

Vitriol and hatred on the internet are becoming so normalized and its getting tiring. You can curate your own online experience.

People need to learn to read as well. If you don't like musicals or think the singing is too much, then don't watch Hazbin. It says in the first sentence of the description that it's a musical. Ding ding ding, red flag, you probably won't enjoy it. In the warnings at the top of the screen, it says it has foul language. If you don't like that kind of thing, it probably won't be for you.

Please for the live of all that is good and holy, just allow people to enjoy something. There are shows I really don't like but I'm not going to waste my mental energy or thoughts on hating something I don't like. I'd much rather pour that energy into something I love!

I'm just a little guy trying to find some joy in a fucked up world and if I can escape by watching a show about hell, please just let me. It's not that hard to block people. It's not that hard to simply ignore.

TL;DR: stop hating people for liking/enjoying/interacting with different forms of entertainment and put that energy into something else, please.

Curate your online experience and find a little joy in something instead of tearing down people/creators.

To those who enjoy the show, to those who just pour all of their love into it by making fanart, fanfictions, thoughtful commentary, discussion boards, headcannons, etc, you all get forehead kisses and love. Thank you for sharing in my joy and fueling my love for these goobers. ♡