tolkien tag problems

beren, the lay of luthien.

luthien was the fresh princess of beleriand

melon the maia

high king thingold

fingolfwin finarfingwe

his sons: fingone, turbo & catherine of aragon.

aredhell

the sons of finarfine: finrod, amrod, angryrod & andreth.

ambarassed, twin sons of nerdandel and prince feano.

celebrimbogorm

oropherodreth

settlers of mahtan

nargothmenegrond

princess finder's keepers

finduilas/gwindor, her doomed human lover.

sauron, lessgoth of moregoth.

ancalagon, cursed blade of eol.

anglachel the black dragon

vala the varda

noldofinwe noldo noldor

king olwe of the falathrim

lord cirdan of the falmari

the fortress of angBAD

king regione finaglad

madrose & maygore

þorontar þe eagle

#þe þorn is for emphasis

the mouths of thirion

elros ta minotaur

(alexa, play noldolante)

Hello! I don't know if you've been asked this before, but what are your thoughts on Orodreth? Do you prefer him being the son of Finarfin or the son of Angrod? What do you think he was like as a ruler? Or as a father to Finduilas/Gil-Galad?

Hi! Thanks for the ask! :) Sorry it took me a while to get back to you!

I prefer Orodreth as the son of Angrod, since that was what Tolkien eventually settled on (even though it contradicts The Silmarillion). I just wish we had more details about his wife and his relationships with his children. So this is a really good ask!

The first thing that stands out to me about Orodreth is how much loss he experienced in a relatively short period of time. Angrod and Aegnor were killed in the Dagor Bragollach, and shortly afterward Sauron attacked Minas Tirith and Orodreth was forced to retreat to Nargothrond. (I assume that Eðellos lived with Angrod, so she most likely died in the Dagor Bragollach too. If so, then Orodreth lost both his parents at the same time.) At that point Finrod and Galadriel were his only surviving uncle and aunt (though she may have left Beleriand by this time). Then Finrod also gets killed by Sauron, leaving Orodreth to rule in his stead... Like many of the Noldor, he took on the burden of kingship while also dealing with personal grief.

In terms of how Orodreth was as a father, I think he would have been a loving parent who was very close to his children. I mostly base this on the fact that he lost so many members of his family, so I think he would have been very devoted to Gil-galad and Finduilas. In the version(s) of the story in The Lays of Beleriand, Orodreth is at first skeptical of Túrin when he comes to Nargothrond, but Finduilas speaks on his behalf and Orodreth listens to her, so he clearly valued her advice.

Also, if we assume that Gil-galad was Orodreth's son (which I do), he and Finduilas could have been with Orodreth at Minas Tirith. I don't know... it just lends a certain tragedy and weight to Gil-galad's eventual leading of the Last Alliance and his final stand against Sauron. Obviously all the Elves hated Sauron, but it's interesting to think that Gil-galad would have literally been driven from his home by Sauron when he was fairly young.

Orodreth's wife is never named and or even mentioned, which feels very conspicuous in The Lays of Beleriand because the story is more fully developed. Finduilas plays a large role; I have to assume that if Orodreth's wife had been alive she would have also played a role in the story. For this reason I have to assume that she is dead by that point in time. It would make sense, as terrible as it is to say, if she had been killed when Sauron took Minas Tirith.

One of Orodreth's best moments, I think, was when he expelled the Fëanorians from Nargothrond and didn't let his people kill them. Of course, what Celegorm and Curufin had done was terrible, and Orodreth had every reason to hate them, but I respect him for keeping the moral high ground and not letting his people become Kinslayers themselves. He should get more credit for his restraint. Given how much the Fëanorians took from him personally (they murdered his kin at Alqualondë, they made him and his family cross the Helcaraxë, they plotted to usurp Finrod and indirectly got him killed...) he showed remarkable restraint.

I think Orodreth was generally a wise ruler, the decision to listen to Túrin being the fatal exception to the rule. The fall of Nargothrond was utterly tragic, but I also can't really fault Orodreth for it, because everyone who met Túrin was ensnared in his curse somehow. Still, what's so awful about it is that the fall of Nargothrond led to the death of Finduilas. And of course, if the two of them were especially close, which I think they were, then that makes her death, which was caused by his worst error in judgement, that much more painful.

Hi! Do you have any Curufinrod headcanons?

(Also, I’ve just seen that we share a name!)

Aah thank you so much for asking!! I do indeed have a lot of headcanons but I haven't really tried to put them into words so this is probably gonna be a mess I apologise in advance

I imagine that they're the kind of people who appear at first glance to be polar opposites of one another (Finrod is extroverted, friendly, artistic, Curufin is introverted, rude, and more of a scientist) BUT on a deeper level they actually have a lot in common.

They're both very inquisitive and open-minded people, they love to discuss and debate new ideas - Finrod is one of the few people who will happily enter a philosophical debate with Curvo because everyone else is too intimidated, and likewise Finrod struggles to find people to talk philosophy with him because most people (read: his siblings) lose the will to live after about 5 minutes or have no idea what he's on about.

Following on from that I also headcanon them both as being quite lonely people (especially in Nargothrond). Curufin doesn't have many friends thanks to his trust issues(TM) and his personality being like ... that, his relationship with Tyelpe is strained at best (and I headcanon that they never really had the sort of relationship where Curvo could confide in Tyelpe, he was definitely a present father but not necessarily an emotionally available one if that makes sense?), and while Celegorm is probably Curufin's closest relationship I imagine that the two of them didn't always have the healthiest of dynamics either and probably quarrelled a lot, so Curvo overall doesn't really have anyone else to confide in. By comparison, on the surface Finrod appears to have LOADS of people to confide in - he's got his counsellors, his close family (specifically Orodreth and Finduilas), not to mention that he's friends with basically all of his cousins - but, in my head, Finrod actually feels very isolated because he's wrestling with a lot of stuff that he can't really talk to any of those people about. Because I like to see my faves suffer, I really love the concept that Finrod is tormented by visions of his own death, and he knows that his oath is going to be his undoing but he also knows that faith in him is the only thing holding his family and indeed his own realm (not to mention several others let's be honest) together, and he knows the worry and panic sharing his visions with his loved ones would bring. But, lo and behold, someone comes along who knows EXACTLY how it feels to be trapped by an oath that you know will be your inevitable undoing!

I also think that Finrod struggles a lot with feeling like he doesn't live up to the version him that most people see. His followers hold him up as this paragon of wisdom and nobility and kindness but I think Finrod actually sees himself as very flawed. He feels personally responsible for all the people who followed him onto the Helcaraxe only to die there, or only to be killed in battle once in Beleriand, or to survive only to find that life in Middle-earth isn't exactly all it's cracked up to be. Finrod actually finds it really refreshing that Curufin is one of the few people who doesn't put him on a pedestal, who openly criticises him, who, from Finrod's perspective, actually sees him for who he truly is (a flawed person, just like everyone else!).

This ties into my other point which is about good ol' Daddy Issues. I find it interesting that both Finrod and Curufin inherited their fathers' name (in Curvo's case his father-name, in Finrod's case his mother-name, Ingoldo). They are also both described as very much taking after their respective fathers, both in appearance and in personality. I think Curufin probably wins the dubious honour that is having the Biggest Daddy Issues of any Silm character but in all honesty I don't think Finrod's that far off. I think a lot about the impact that Finarfin choosing to turn back after the Kinslaying/Doom of Mandos had on Finrod - he and Finarfin were probably very close, and tbh I think that this was a decision that they argued about at the time. Finrod chose to carry on because he was adventurous and curious about the lands to the east, and because his siblings (primarily Galadriel) wanted to go and he wanted to protect them (I could write a whole other essay about Finrod and Galadriel's relationship but ANYWAY), but if he's honest with himself there was also a part of him that was afraid to turn back and face the Valar after what had already happened. He still feels guilty over everything that transpired, over the fact that his last conversation with Finarfin was less than pleasant, and he also never would have known for sure whether his father was punished or forgiven for turning back, and so Finrod constantly wonders whether he made the right decision and is always imagining what his father would think of him now. I think this is something Curufin recognises in Finrod because (not that he'd ever admit it to ANYONE, except maybe Celegorm) he too worries constantly about what Fëanor would think of him and, deep down, has a lot of feelings of inadequacy and not living up to his father's legacy.

Sooo basically TL;DR I think Curufin and Finrod have a really interesting dynamic because they are in the unique positions of being able to see past the walls that the other has put up and identifying the underlying issues/trauma at play because they struggle with those same issues. I really see them as two sides of the same coin in a way.

Húrin, Morwen and any of their children for the ask game

-@outofangband

under a cut for length

Húrin

Sexuality Headcanon: HoME that says he’s an “admirer of Felagund”, which kinda sounds like a euphemism for something not so straight. the whole family’s bi lol

A ship I have with said character: with Morwen. they’re one of my favorite canon couples in the Tolkienverse. their story is so tragic, and I can’t help but tear up every time I read their last scene. plus the short guy/tall girl dynamic is one of my favorite tropes for het ships.

A BROTP I have with said character: with Huor. they both give me wholesome jock vibes and I love it. he probably made a lot of jokes about how his little brother is like a foot and a half taller than him

A NOTP I have with said character: none bc the only ship I’ve seen with him is with Morwen

A random headcanon: he has a surprisingly really good singing voice. he tends to lead the drinking songs at the mead hall. he also sang lullabies to his kids. he never got to sing to Nienor oh no I made myself sad

General Opinion over said character: this man called satan a little bitch to his face, I love him. he’s an extremely tragic character, but also so badass for holding out for so long

Morwen

Sexuality Headcanon: bi and probably somewhere on the aromantic spectrum

A ship I have with said character: with Húrin

A BROTP I have with said character: with Aerin. we don’t get to know much about Aerin, but she seems pretty cool. I can see Aerin standing up for Morwen when she was accused of witchcraft

A NOTP I have with said character: none, I’ve only seen her shipped with Húrin and Aerin

A random headcanon: she has a morbid fascination with death. she used to wander the cemetery, finding a strange sense of solace among the graves. I feel like she could have been a mortician

General Opinion over said character: she’s an interesting character. the fact that she refused to go to Doriath for so long kinda frustrates me, but it’s a flaw that makes her seem more human

Túrin

Sexuality Headcanon: bi

A ship I have with said character: with Beleg. they’re my silm otp and I love them so much. their relationship just hits that perfect balance of softness and angst for me. though I also like him in a poly ship with both Finduilas and Gwindor

A BROTP I have with said character: with Nellas. I see her as a sort of big sister figure to Túrin and I like to imagine her guiding Túrin through the forests and teaching him about the world through the eyes of elves

A NOTP I have with said character: with Nienor, for obvious reasons. I get that it had to happen for tragedy reasons but like, ew. I try to avoid thinking about that part of the story as much as I can. I just really want happier AUs for them where they can just be normal siblings together

A random headcanon: he’s very touch starved. he says he hates being touched, he’s lying. he just really wants someone to play with his hair

General Opinion over said character: he’s an idiot, but he’s my idiot. he’s just a well written antihero and an interesting take on the classical tragic hero

Nienor

Sexuality Headcanon: bi

A ship I have with said character: with Mablung. I don’t know why this ship is so rare, it makes a lot of sense in the plot, they have the perfect set up for a tragic romance. I’ve also seen her shipped with Finduilas and Nellas and they’re cute ships too, I’m always down for femslash

A BROTP I have with said character: I just feel like her and Beleg would get along well if they ever met. I’m thinking about an au where she goes to Doriath as a child and she collects wildflowers for Beleg and he tells her all about their meaning in the language of flowers and their medicinal properties

A NOTP I have with said character: with Túrin

A random headcanon: she also comes back in Dagor Dagorath, and this time she gets to be the one to kill a reborn Glaurung. she’s like “I told you once and I’ll tell you again, the children of Húrin are not craven” and she bonks him with her axe

General Opinion over said character: THE biggest “deserved better” character in the legendarium. poor girl suffered so much. she’s also pretty badass, what with her pulling a Mulan and standing up to a dragon

Can't recall if you've answered this but any headcanons on Faramir's relationship with Imrahil and the other Dol Amroth family members? And just what would they make of him having a fear of the ocean as you've mentioned before?

Oh yeah so I did a bit of that here under the guise of Éowyn, so if it sounds like I’m sort of repeating things that’s why. Here’s Faramir’s side —

Lothíriel

 I’m going to start with her because I think she’s my most controversial take. I don’t really see her as this firebrand as I think the general fanon interpretation is. Instead, I sort of envision her as similar to Finduilas in that she’s a bit more Content with the state of the world and her relationship to it than e.g., either Éowyn or Faramir. Because of this I think Faramir always sees her very much as The Younger Cousin in a way that isn’t necessarily true for any of the Dol Amroth youths. I think he’s maybe a bit conflicted about her marrying Éomer, though largely because I see that as a political marriage whereas he and Éowyn just aren’t. And I think because obviously Éomer and Aragorn are so close, he sees Éomer in the same age bracket (if that’s even possible with these Númenórean weirdos) and not so much with Lothíriel. I don’t think they have a hugely close relationship, but I think the common fanon interpretation that they’re both really into music is delightful and something I sign up to very happily. I think largely they’re maybe not as close as some portrayals (including some of my own) show them. That said, I think they do have a lot of similarities, and I think the people that come to their family dynamic late (Éowyn, Éomer, Aragorn) see it more clearly than they do. I think Lothíriel is more given to that sort of old-world longing that Faramir is, though maybe not in as overtly an intellectual way, and I think she certainly figured herself as a guardian of certain moral and political norms, which Faramir definitely does. Still, Faramir’s like a year away from entering the army (in my HC) by the time she’s born, and that plus the inevitable gendered divisions means they’re maybe not super close. Éowyn’s latter day relationship with Lothíriel certainly changes that though, and this is not to say that they’re exactly distant. They’re just not besties.

Amrothos

I didn’t actually realise this was a controversial take until quite recently? But Amrothos is a HUGE nerd to me. He’s basically Faramir if Faramir got to play al his personality faults to the end instead of being forced to engage with reality/politics as they really are. And not that Faramir exactly does that a huge amount pre-death of everybody he loves, but Amrothos really doesn’t have to do it. Actually in a lot of ways Amrothos is my shameless self insert whenever I write in that he’s a huge dweeb who isn’t super interested or capable of interacting with other people and mostly self isolates. I like Altariel’s interpretation (on AO3) that he’s there for the Osgiliath bridge but in my HC he’s way, way more sheltered than that. It’s no knock on him, I think in a lot of ways he ends up acting as a brilliant bridge between the Third and Fourth Ages aa someone who remembers the war but isn’t necessarily scarred or made cynical by it, but definitely believes more in the prosperity of peace etc. He and Faramir get on like a fucking house on fire; at first, when he’s younger, Amrothos trails Faramir like a puppy, but later once F’s been to the war, he sees Amrothos more like a touchstone and definitely does whatever he can to spend time with him.

Erchirion

lmao I love the idea of Erchirion as a huge himbo???? I’m so sorry, he’s just my Lancelot and there’s really no avoiding it. Erchirion is the embodiment of what Faramir sees Boromir as: brazen, arrogant, a bit hedonistic. To clarify, I don’t think Boromir is these things, but I absolutely think Faramir casts Boromir in those terms when he’s at his crankiest. Erchirion, however, absolutely is those things and is supa, supa proud of it. He’s definitely got the most contentious relationship with Imrahil, but I think Faramir sort of treasures his relationship with Erchirion because it gives him the chance to gently tease/chide someone who, to him, embodies Gondor’r worst excesses. Though he and Erchirion of course are similar in that they are (for their pre-war lives) both the second son and therefore largely absolved of any real responsibility, I still think there’s a bit of a gulf there in that Faramir feels like this military shit is forced onto him by circumstance whereas Erchirion kind of picks it. Still, I think it’s sort of cathartic for F to rib Erchirion and Erchirion absolutely does not give a fuck because he’s rich, good looking, and connected to hella power.

Elphir 

I think they’ve actually got the closest relationship of all of Imrahil’s kids, largely because I think Elphir’s of a similar sort of attitude to Faramir. I think Elphir’s very much been moulded in Imrahil’s likeness, and I think he’s got that sort of flamboyant charisma I imagine Imrahil to have, but it’s been way, way toned down in light of his ongoing service in the war effort (whatever that looks like). Also, he and F are quite close in age so they’ve just had more time to mellow out their relationship and sort of play the Woe Is Me, War Is Shit stuff, which really brings them together. Elphir is married and a father well in advance of Faramir, and so I think Faramir occasionally looks at Elphir and sees something of what his life might have been like. Not in a bitter or jealous way, just in a very detached, academic sense of wonder.

Imrahil

I am getting hella deja vu here because I feel like I’ve said this before but I think Imrahil’s relationship to Faramir pre, say, TA3001, is basically exclusively familial with no political edge to it. Once Faramir comes Of Age relatively speaking, I think Imrahil realises Faramir’s far more amenable to taking divergent positions from his father’s line and tries to use that to his advantage. Not in a cruel way, just in a way that’s realistic about how politics works. Sometimes F agrees, sometimes he doesn’t. Either way, that long term negotiation with his uncle re: politics means that when they get to the point of F being steward, they’ve got a really good sense of how the other works and an inarguably honest relationship. Probably bluntly so. I’ve always imagined that Imrahil is the one to break the news about Denethor’s death to Faramir and that’s as much about defending his sister’s last living son as it is about protecting the fraught political situation.

Ivriniel 

I think Faramir constantly has a similar relationship to her that a rowdy teen might have to a strict mother. I don’t think that ever changes, even when he’s literally the Steward of Gondor and, in fact, I think that brings a tremendous and invaluable sense of normalcy to both of their lives. I think F doesn’t have any strong opinions on her and Éowyn sniping at one another except that it’s good craic.

The Faramir being scared of water HC is wholesale plagiarised from @khokali but I think Imrahil, Elphir, Erchirion, as sailors of some sort or another, are all fuckin merciless about taking the piss out of Faramir for it. Amrothos is sort of ambivalent except that he thinks it’s weird that Faramir doesn’t take even a distant scholarly interest in the sea, and Lothíriel is very, very empathetic but doesn’t really outwardly argue for that. Ivriniel absolutely does not give a fuck, she has more important things to think about than children being scared of water.

Edit: I should say— after a certain age I think Faramir is (correctly) taught that his emotions are very political, and so learns to be careful about who he reveals them to and when. Unfortunately, he cops to the ocean-fear stuff when he’s a kid so that shit sticks with him for life. It’s really not until Éowyn comes along that he learns how to process emotions as not inherently a political statement and as something that can be felt and understood independently of pragmatic considerations. So the Dol Amroth mafia know about the sea-fear, but nobody else does, and for a very, very long time it’s his only ‘visible’ weakness.

DVD: that one scene from your fic about Dirhaval, with the elf lady and the two of them being really intent with each other over the fire. "Do you love me" et cetera. I hope that makes sense I'm on mobile.

omg IT DOES although since that fic barely has scene divisions I’m going to take this excuse to do… a lot of it.

“I have remembered something,” she added, inconsequentially. “My aunt’s husband was Guilin’s steward. Everyone in my family hated him because he always making up to us with stories about the great princes. He said that Gwindor and Finduilas fought much over the Adanedhel’s love for her.”

I… I love this OC. She’s not even a box of rocks, she’s like, a box with one rock in it. Selectively dense; elsewhere, airheaded.

Dírhaval considered the fish with great interest. He had been told triumph lent him a fierce expression. He had no wish to scare his friend off now.

I can’t remember if @crocordile​ and I had a conversation before or after I wrote this about Dirhavel being like, not necessarily a big but an energetic guy who’s frequently seen around the camps doing SUPER WEIRD athletic shit to see if some of the feats he attributes to Turin were physically possible—anyway, whatever the timing, that concept was what I was psychically tuned into when I wrote this description. He has a beard and it bristles despite his best efforts to keep it trimmed.

“Raised voices—he overheard—Gwindor said, ‘Why does he seek you out, and sit long with you, and come ever more glad away?’ And that was true, I remember; they sat together in all kinds of places, on the terraces, in the treasury, and even by the earthworks for the bridge. No doubt he told her much you would be glad to know. But as for me, I think Gwindor a fool; few men would have loved her for listening. It reminds them what they hold dear in themselves.”

It was really hard for me to strike what seemed like a reasonable balance between hearsay and direct observation, but I leaned on the idea that Nargothrond, though huge, was not like, “modern city space” huge, more “sprawling overdeveloped apartment complex and you need a permit to go above ground”—so in five years and with perfect memory, everyone has a decent chance of stumbling on everyone else’s attempts at fresh air.

“That’s true,” he said. The first time he had interviewed her, she had spoken for an hour about the cavern of assembly, like an egg on its side—but so vast!—and with stalactites Finrod himself had sung down into pillars, or was it that he had worn holes in the walls parting small caves, she couldn’t decide; and the window on the river, whence a grey light came, like a shadow thrown on the gliding light of a thousand lamps and torches.

I think this description of the great hall is kind of cute but I have to acknowledge it was influenced, consciously or subconsciously, by the great hall in the Rats of Nimh.

And now when she spoke it was matter-of-fact and with hardly a jibe at her uncle. She was Túrin to him in that moment with her straight-sloping neck, the flushed skin of her neck and jaw with her face as fair as fair could stay at sunset, the cupful of shadow under her chin. He had burned the roof of his mouth. The fish was tender, almost flavorless, flaking between his teeth like a cake of river-flesh; a little muddy, even, as all water here was. He ate the crisped-black skin for a whiff of charcoal, which coated his mouth. “Don’t you love me, your loyal hearer?”

She gave him a startled wink; and smiled, and smiled.

Okay, so yes. I do love this moment, I hope it does a lot of things at once; basically I want 1) Dirhavel to be ironic in a nice way about his elf friend attempting to invent the term “emotional labor,” which reflects both a male impatience with this attempt to generalize everything to men talking women’s ears off, but also some vague species-based edginess about him trying to construct this human story out of testimony from elves, and like, navigating elves’ possessiveness of Turin but also the way they patronize him in the same breath, Adanedhel. And at the same time having to confront the fact that people are people and the elf-human boundary has gotten increasingly blurry with the end times, however much he might want to retain a sense of lofty apartness, whether as a human among elves, a writer among subjects, a man among women, whatever—that tension between observer distance and involuntary empathy is another big theme of this fic. And 2) I want the cook to catch it but not quite get it—like, she knows he’s making fun of her but she doesn’t necessarily interpret it in the same way he does, what she gets is that he’s talking about the limits of different kinds of love, that you can love someone and it can still go just so far: that’s why it triggers her next thought about Finduilas –> Turin.

“I do not think Finduilas loved the Mormegil either. Or, that is, I believe they loved one another as sister and brother.”

I said this in my commentary on an otherwise VERY different LOGH fic but I love when characters are wrong. Every time. Also, I love childish oversimplifications that have good reason for existing—that is, I like when you can really see why a character would with all their heart want to believe x, because the alternative is both messy and depressing.

Trying to lick his fingers clean just spread around the soot. Among the things she had told Dírhaval was that she was an only child. But he was inclined to believe her, almost. To Finduilas Túrin should have been a child. She must have wanted to love him like a brother—it would have been best, by far clearer and finer, to love him as a brother, even when her death walked near. The death he handed her down to; but if they were kin, it would have been her right to love him, blaming him.

“Do you not agree?”

Dirhavel takes this basically as like, confirmation for his thesis that all real love is irrational and unconditional (see also Gwindor wanting Finduilas and Túrin to be happy at his own expense, a few lines down) but only familial love has the “excuse” to be so. So the distinction is not, “would I love him whatever he did to me,” but rather, “do I feel fucked up and guilty about that fact or not.” In a vague way, this is supposed to set up the extremely bleak lines he gives Nienor after she gets her memory back: twice beloved.

“I can’t say.” Up again to pace. She followed him, basket on her arm, and settled onto her haunches when she saw he had no journey in mind. He stood when he performed, which was not hard, but it made him more restless when alone.

See above remarks about Dirhavel’s acrobatics, and also maaybe his ADHD

“I think—by the time—no, Túrin did not love her, and as for Finduilas, well, surely she cared for Gwindor? If they argued. Let’s see. And Túrin pursued her at last and fell in a swoon on her grave, we know that. And he loved Gwindor; how not, when Gwindor was with him at Ivrin? But Gwindor—I suppose—Gwindor must have hated him. No. He must have hoped Túrin loved Finduilas, and that was why he couldn’t be persuaded of the truth. For he would have wanted her to be happy, in the end.”

“Oh, no!”

His mood tipped down at once. “Oh no,” he agreed, and took his sandals off and stepped into the stream.

Again, I just think this interaction is fun. I mean I like the placement of his realization about Gwindor, but I LOVE the cook being like “oh no!! that’s so sad!” I hope other people enjoy “stories about the process of idiotic sadstuck brainstorming” as much as I do.

His mother had said once that both he and his father were happier than other men, but that they had no ballast, to keep steady the craft. If he took on an ounce of grief he’d sink, and yet he felt the flood almost as freedom. It made him more the master than had his dry, feckless race, his high-riding. As long as he struggled he had yet to succumb; that was the rule for a wasted night. He ought to go beg a bowl of sour milk from Linnor, or go and sing a service for the king. He could see as far as a night of stars.

I wanted to communicate a particular kind of mood downturn here where you can still clearly remember being happy, and the rising tide of discontent isn’t overwhelming on its own, it’s just depressing because you know where it leads—but for the same reason it’s also a relief, in that you know where it leads. Whereas joy is weird and easy to get lost in and you never know when the plug will be pulled. But I’m not sure the boat metaphor really works.

But it was day, it was red evening. It was his companion’s grief, filling his mind from above. She crouched and watched the far bank huge-eyed, not a tear in evidence, eyes opened but sealed, as it seemed, against sadness that strove for entry, not escape; she sat with wide mouth cracked, nostrils flared, sucking in great absent sniffs of sea-wind. She was besieged as an afterthought, safe and calm except besieged.

I also wanted to include some telepathy! As always! Dirhaval I imagine to be something of a natural, who probably has had some experience with elf mind-speech at this point—enough to recognize it but not really to manage it. I like this description of the cook in pain, I think it works well with her established personality and also evokes Nargothrond itself, which is of course the thing she’s actually grieving for. I mean, and she identifies it with Gwindor, reasonably enough, and takes unhappy pride in him as a lord of Nargothrond, and in this moment is kind of shot through herself not just with the fact of his defeat but the like, honorable necessity of his defeat, knowing that on some level he accepted it.   

(Gwindor surely wished Finduilas joy. Finduilas, dying, remembered Túrin, and told him where his quest should end. The feathered tops of the reeds glowed on dark stems, like a fire in a field of reeds—there before nightfall he planted for ever the standards of the Noldor and their unsheathed swords, kindling in the dawn.)

I’m so proud of this stupid line lol, it’s just the reverse of Tolkien’s—“The light of the drawing of the swords of the Noldor was like a fire in a field of reeds”—but I LOVE THAT LINE, it’s so perfect for Dirhaval as an author and Sirion as a place of memory/last battlefront/first battlefront for this long war. And its conclusion, still to come.

He washed his hands and greasy beard in the river. “Your fish will be cold,” he advised. He had abandoned hope of dinner until she brought it, but that was no reason to encourage bad habits in her.

Dumb friends. Dumb friends are great because they are attuned to the hazards of stupidity, and can help each other.

Then he had to pick some scales out of his teeth, and couldn’t elaborate, but he heard her uncover the basket, anyway.

He had met her before with a handful of salt, pressing a few grains to her mouth to check their purity. “Dírhaval,” she said wisely, mouth full. “Dírhaval, I have forgotten how to cook.” Meaning she had no spices, witched ovens, and trained assistants—maybe, with her, it really was as though she had forgotten; at least it was something else she had lost.

Yeah… the focus on memory in this is another unexpected link to the LOGH fic uh, an inevitable byproduct of writing about a historian, and it’s also supposed to reflect that loss of separation between elves and men, since so much of what distinguishes elves is… their wealth of resources, psychological and material. And the material resources are essential to and interwoven with the psychological resilience, as noted here, so I really wanted to capture that sense that *not having* all the wonderful things she used to have baffles her as much as a hole in her memory. Because the default is that you keep everything forever, right? Another feeling which is not unique to elves. God I love………………………… “people.”  

a tolkien-proof character meme: 1. Haleth 2. Caranthir 3. Prince Imrahil (of Dol Amroth, not the other one)

Haleth

1-3 things I enjoy about them1. That she was really the only female leader in Beleraind. There wasn’t another female ruler until Tar- Ancalime hundreds of years later. And she was so important the Haladin became known as the House Of Haleth.2. The fact that she was independent and wouldn’t take handouts but the Haladin overall were really open to outsiders (they let the Druedain run with them when everyone else thought they were weird).3. Her personal guard of women warriors.

Something interesting about them based on tenuous circumstantial evidenceI think Haleth specifically didn’t want to get married because she was cautious of the fact that a man might reduce her power. I also think she was barren as a result of a wound and so the idea of marrying never made sense. Instead she raised her nephew like her son.I know a lot of people headcanon her as a lesbian and I totally get why but I always saw her as kind of bi and demisexual. Like, she had sex with a man and then a woman and both times thought, “that was fine but whatever.” She doesn’t fall in love easily at all. But I also headcanon her as Caranthir’s secret wife so yeah.

A question I have about themHow did she convince Thingol to let the Haladin stay on his lands. He hates everyone. What did she even SAYA random relevant line I likeAny line about her honestly.My preferred version, if there is more than one version of their story (or part of their story)There aren’t different versions as far as I know but I think I do have a tedency to age her down in my mind. I think she’s supposed to lose her father and brother when she’s in her forties but I alays age her down to anywhere in the 23-35 range.Favorite relationship(s)With Caranthir, either platonic or not. I like how they learned a lot from each other and Caranthir became more tolerant of Men as a result (although this did bite him in the butt later). I like how they seemed to form a real alliance. I like how they are both very stubborn and strong leaders. In a non-platonic sense, I like the idea of them marrying in secret and then having limited contact after she leaves Thargelion because they both know their relationship is doomed anyway because she will die. I like the idea of Caranthir telling people he’s married but never getting into specifics about how she was a human. I like the idea that they were able to sort of feel each other’s thoughts from far away because of the bond so they never really left each other in a way.How would they react to Tom BombadilCuriousity. First she’d want to know if he was friend or foe and be ready to fight but then she’d just want to know what he is and why he’s here. She’d probably offer to let him roll with her crew and then become disinterested when he says no.Optional: Something about them that I think people forgetI already included a bunch of these before so I’ll go broader. I think people forget that the Dunlendings are descended from the Haladin. This is actually really importat to be especially because of the fact that the Dunlendings are portrayed in LOTR as the aggressors against Rohan when from their perspecive Rohan stole their land. This is made even more interesting when you consider that the Dunlendings are often portrayed as people of color (usually kind of hispanic looking). As a result I think of the Haladin as people of color too (in canon they are described as having dark hair and eyes and being shorter than the Beorians or Hadorians).

Caranthir

1-3 things I enjoy about them1. His capacity to learn and change his opinions about others. He shows so much personal growth for a Feanorian. Possibly the most. He might be the only one who becomes an actively better person.2. The fact that he is really independent compared to his brothers. He ruled his land entirely alone and showed very little interest in the Oath.3. The fact that he’s the only person in Beleraind who seems to know how to run an economy.

Something interesting about them based on tenuous circumstantial evidenceI have tons of these.I imagine that he likes the finer things in life but is not excessive or flashy. He’ll spend money on good food but his home and clothing are very elegent and understated. He also wears darker colors which I kind of base on his insular, independent-ness.I imagine he was trained in smithing but that he was not very technically skilled. Specifically I think aside from Curufin that Maedhros and Caranthir got the most smith training (Maglor’s early musical talent excused him from it and Celegorm kept fucking off to hunt). I think Maedhros had expert percision and could made superior weaponry but he had no creativity or innovation to truely make him Feanor’s heir. Caranthir was the opposite: sloppy execusion but very creative. I imagine he made things for the Haladin (specifically a crown type thing for Haleth).He was closer with his mother. She seemed to have some slight foresight (i.e. let one of the twins stay) and that Caranthir was the one who inheirted it. This made him a little weird as a kid and made him closer with his mom especially after Feanor directed his attention to Curufin. She was more appreciative of his logical and mathmatical skills than Feanor who prioritizes the ability to invent over the ability to know.Caranthir’s famous anger is not always of the “throw things across the room” variety. It is often quiet and judgemental.

A question I have about themThis is so dumb but I want to know if you can swim in the black lake. Is it dangerous. What lives in it.A random relevant line I likeThe one where he goes off on Angrod.My preferred version, if there is more than one version of their story (or part of their story)Well in the History Of Middle Earth it said Caranthir had a wife but there was absolutely no information given about her. It’s Haleth. Fight me.Favorite relationship(s)See everything I wrote above under “Haleth.”How would they react to Tom BombadilHe’d try to trade with him.Optional: Something about them that I think people forgetHe constantly gets thrown in with Celegorm and Curufin as a set but Caranthir has virtually nothing in common with them. Celegorm is an attempted rapist and kidnapper and Curufin is his dumbass accomplice. The strongest connection Caranthir has to them was that the three of them died during the Second Kinslaying.

Prince Imrahil(This is going to be hard since I remember very little about him)

1-3 things I enjoy about them1. That he carried Faramir back to Minas Tirith after he nearly died AND that he noticed that Eowyn wasn’t dead yet. They kind of owe him.2. He was pretty much third in line to the throne of Gondor after Aragorn and Faramir.3… . that he’s from Dol Amroth and I would want to live there if I was in Middle Earth. Wait, am I misremembering this or was Imrahil the one who told Legolas about the sea and Legolas knew he wasn’t supposed to go there because then he’d never want to return to the forest but Imrahil made it sound so great that Legolas basically messed up his life. Not sure.

Something interesting about them based on tenuous circumstantial evidenceThis is definitely coming from fanfiction but I feel like Imrahil was a cool uncle. I imagine that he and Faramir had a close relationship specifically because of the way that Denethor kind of ignored him and because I always imagined that Faramir reminded Imrahil more of Finduilas than Boromir did.I imagine all his kids are really educated because he made this a specific priority for them. 

A question I have about themI kind of wonder how he gets along with Eomer since his daughter married him and I view Rohan culture and Gondor culture as being different enough that marriages between the two can be awkward.A random relevant line I likeThat line about how they are nuts for attacking the Black Gate with so few soldiers.My preferred version, if there is more than one version of their story (or part of their story)As far as I know, this is all we got.Favorite relationship(s)Well we don’t see much in the story so I’m going with Imrahil and Faramir.How would they react to Tom BombadilHe’d be very respectful and polite and not badger him with questions.Optional: Something about them that I think people forgetThat his army were called Swan Knights and I’m guessing they had some pretty silly uniforms.