Saw someone complain saying that it made no sense for Frank to call Karen family on the punisher season 1 and that that hug was also out of nowhere which must mean it was all fan service. I was answering but while doing so the post was deleted... so here is what I wrote:

Well she was the only one who cared about what happened to his family and fought tooth and nail for him to get answers and for him to have a reduced sentence.

He started caring about her there and she already cared because she saw something of herself in him (she projected) and understood him. She was obsessed with finding out more about him from the start. And that was not fan service. She thought if he could be saved then so could she. Everyone else thought she was crazy for caring but she knew there was more and she had been through something similar when her brother died. All the lies the town and the local news paper spread because they didn't care to get the real story.

He was ready to DIE. Like- he had given up when he was at that hospital on DD season 2 and Karen came in and showed him that she cared about what happened to him and she wanted to help him, that not all hope was lost, that he COULD find out what happened to his family. She is the reason he decided he wanted to keep living because otherwise they were gonna give him the death penalty and he knew that.

And during the trial and before that she was the only person he would talk to. And that lasted a few weeks. So we can assume they saw each other very frequently during those 3 weeks and had long hours working on his case together. He saved her life more than once and yeah, he used her as bait but it was also to kill the minions going after her. The blacksmith was gonna kill her and he saved her by crashing the car. He put the song in the car first so she would know to keep an eye out. She also spent ALL night at the docks waiting to see if he was there and Matt heard her heartbeat when she thought Frank was dead, meaning he knew she was in love or at least cared a lot about him. That was before "fanservice".

All of this was during Daredevil's season 2. They found a connection through their losses and brokenness. She told him he was a monster because she was talking about HERSELF, again, projecting because she thought if he killed again that meant she wasn't worth forgiving. Even Deborah talked about that. She was just trying to make him stop by any means. If Frank killed the Black smith he was never gonna know the truth about his family. He said he was already dead because he felt like he didn't deserve her help or her compassion. You can see in The Punisher that he isolates himself because he doesn't believe he deserves to be loved. Even curtis says that he can keep pushing people away but it won't stop them from caring. During The Punisher, aside from Curtis, she is literally all he has. The only other person that cares about what happens to him. Believe or not that can mean a lot to someone who's whole family was murdered in front of him and has no one.

Also, the actors pushed for her to be on the show. And even if it is fanservice…. it was well done, their relationship makes sense if you analyze it or at least understand it and I eat it up.

I need the MCU to greenlight a return for The Punisher so we can 

A. See Jon Bernthal return as Frank

B. Actually BE the Punisher 

C. Give us a scene of The Punisher putting an end to Cops and White Supremacists using his symbol for their likeness. And straight up killing them for putting the shitty “thin blue line” on his symbol and being racists and corrupt murdering thugs

Frank Castle is ACAB, fuck your thin blue line

so glad i found someone who also dislikes karen page. i loved daredevil and the punisher, and thought the plotlines and the acting was fantastic in both, apart from one outlier. Karen. She annoyed me so so much and the acting was just bad. It was all little petty glances and hair flips and sighing. Unfortunately when watching daredevil she’s hard to avoid but when im rewatching the punisher I skip her scenes if possible. All the other well done characters and good acting around her make her seem even worse. I also cant stand Kastle as a ship, idc how popular it is I greatly dislike it. Karen anti forever sorry not sorry.

Hi! yeah, Karen is the worst and I don't get how people like her lmao

exactly, she's so bad, and she always looks and acts the exact same way, no matter what the scene warrants, not to mention how she just always inserts herself in every situation and takes charge for some reason? also, she got Ben killed and then took his job that she was suddenly amazing at?? wtf 😂

yeah, when I got like halfway through season 2, I had to put the playback speed the highest it could be during her scenes 😂 thankfully it was still on Netflix so that was an option, but I can't bring myself to rewatch on D+ until they add the playback speed button haha

she's easily the worst actress on both shows, and the worst character I've ever seen in anything 😂

I never saw why people ship her with Frank, or with Matt for that matter - there's no chemistry whatsoever, especially from her side - season 2 of daredevil is my fave, but the beginning with Karen and Matt "dating" is just the worst 🤢🤮

I've never hated a character this much, and I've never really been an anti anything, but honestly, I'm as anti Karen Page as it can get 😂😂

great to find someone who dislikes her as much as me haha (bc, fr, everyone I know irl who watched the Netflix shows loves her and its annoying 😂)

Feel free to block any of these tags so you don't have to see them if you follow me.

Fandoms:

911 abc, anti-arrow, kdrama, star wars, the mandalorian, star wars the clone wars, the mentalist, the bear, percy jackson and the olympians, good omens, the walking dead, life, the x-files, ugly betty, true detective, deadloch, game of thrones, dexter, gossip girl, dc comics, marvel, westworld, doctor who, the fall, the flash, the lord of the rings, grey's anatomy, pushing daisies, the hunger games, luther, once upon a time, elementary, abbott elementary, breaking bad, the dark tower, fargo, we are watcher, ringer, better call saul, insecure, the punisher, daredevil, bridgerton, angel, house md, the rookie, brooklyn nine nine, the last of us, supernatural, shadow and bone, six of crows, interview with the vampire, superstore, yellowjackets, severance, the good place, the resident, stranger things, major crimes, the closer, schitts creek, parks and recreation, sense8, the ones who live, found nbc, what we do in the shadows, wwdits

Characters:

tommy kinard, bucktommy, chimney han, evan buckley, maddie buckley, bobby nash, athena grant, bathena, madney, henrietta wilson, karen wilson, teresa lisbon, patrick jane, jisbon, kimball cho, betty suarez, daniel meade, laurel lance, lois lane, clark kent, clois, superman, anakin skywalker, ahsoka tano, obi wan kenobi, darth vader, luke skywalker, satine kryze, grogu, charlie crews, dani reese, lumen pierce, debra morgan, dan humphrey, blair waldorf, dair, alison cameron, gregory house, hameron, castiel, dean winchester, batman, bruce wayne, dick grayson, nightwing, donna noble, river song, rory, amy pond, iris west, barry allen, cristina yang, lexie grey, mark sloan, meredith grey, derek shepard, peeta mellark, katniss everdeen, alice morgan, emma swan, killian jones, hook jones, captain swan, joan watson, sherlock holmes, sansa stark, jon snow, jonsa, arya stark, brienne of tarth, skyler white, jesse pinkman, walter white, roland of gilead, oy, karen page, frank castle, kastle, kate sharma, anthony bridgerton, kanthony, cordelia chase, cangel, lucy chen, tim bradford, chenford, michonne, carol peletier, richonne,

Misc:

random, fandom, fanfic, fanfiction, lol, text post, movies, quote, book, tumblr, poetry, animals, canon, celebrities, celebrity, dogs, history, art, the killers, mythology, neil gaiman, politics, glmdedit,

From s1 I have shipped Matt and Karen (and I always will) and when S2 of Daredevil came around along with the entry of Frank I loved Frank and Karen’s duo. I shipped them albeit not as much as Karedevil. S1 of the The Punisher for me made no sense because Frank was clearly not over his wife and suddenly Karen is starting to being treated as his love interest. I absolutely loved s3 of of Daredevil because we got Matt and Karen talking things out opening up to each other and essentially starting from scratch which would have developed in s4 of Daredevil if it hadn’t gotten cancelled (I’ll forever be salty about the cancellation) and end of s3 can inherently be interpreted as a new beginning for Matt and Karen in a romantic way which is why S2 of The punisher is just confusing. How can all of the development made by Karen in DD s3 just be erased?? It was like she was a different person and the implication that Karen and Frank have feelings for each other felt so forced. I admit that Kastle is a popular ship and I also shipped them but not after S2 of the punisher because the hospital scene was so forced and clearly a fan service and that pisses me off. Karedevil deserved better.

I haven't watched tps2 but to contribute to the karedevil defense, that hospital scene, repeat after me, is pure fan service. karen was completely ooc, and to say that her having to be a part in saving frank from his mental illness is somehow "healthy relationship standards" is pure hipocrisy, considering what haters have been blaming karedevil for. the writers are baiting fans with a popular ship to get themselves a new season and that's all there is to it.

Daredevil 3 is coming and Kastle fandom’s obsession is very annoying, because Daredevil 3 is not going to be Punisher 2 and you must accept it. Matt’s relationships have already been stolen enough.

If Marvel makes K*stle endgame I personally will fight all living souls at their HQ's

i am on episode 11 so i will be half-listening while fucking around on my phone because, ugh, Karen.

Why I feel like Netflix’s Punisher show did not understand Frank Castle

Despite the show being good and great acting, I don’t feel like the show understood Frank Castle as a character.

As a huge fan of The Punisher I felt it lacked severely in one major area that being the actual Punisher. It never feels like Frank gets to be the one man killing machine who goes on to kill criminals, it only happens if they have connections to his family’s deaths. He barely wears the skull nor does he feel like The Punisher

Jon Bernthal did really good, he’s badass, charismatic and gets the tragedy of Frank Castle down well, but it just feels like he never got to be The Punisher. It only feels like in Daredevil season 2 is when they get him right, felt like he was straight out of the comics and especially from Punisher Max.

But in his own show, it feels like they just changed everything about him. The show started to rewrite or undo what makes The Punisher great in order to make him more likable as a leading man. Cut out some of his more dark aspects of his personality. Immediately after he kills everyone responsible for killing his family, he stops. He wants to distance himself from his violent past and try to find some peace. Frank struggles with a central conflict that's just kind of wrong for the character, he isn't sure if he wants to keep killing, he's conflicted about taking further steps towards revenge but finds himself constantly being compelled to  it either by outside sources or by his own internal sadness. 

But if there's one thing I associate with The Punisher, it's not having qualms about morality of killing. Let me ask you what does the Punisher do? He hunts down and kills criminals forever, regardless if they had anything to do with his family's murder. He's in perpetual war with organized crime, he sleeps in a van or whatever warehouse he can rent out to keep all his equipment, he devotes his every waking moment to the battle of the killers and abusers of the world. Does he ever feel bad about it? Does he ever regret any of it? Does he ever want to take a break and live a normal life? Not even once. He certainly would not care at all what Karen Page would think about him. 

Let's compare comic Frank's history to Netflix Frank. Frank Castle was only conflicted about killing at one point in his life but now he is not and will never be again. Frank discovered during his time in the military that he loves killing people, he feels comfortable when he's in the middle of a war. It gives him purpose, it gives him drive and motivation and it allows him to be creative and express himself and it's even an outlet for his aggression. Basically Frank Castle feels like he's his best self when he's in the middle of war and it only feels right if the opponent can fight back, which is why he didn't start butchering any random person on the street after he got discharged. He enjoys a target that requires a strategy and forethought and he gets off a little on the danger. The thing he was conflicted about was who he could possibly choose for his new war now that his official one had ended. Now he finds himself adjusting to a normal life with a family to take care of and responsibilities as a man he placed ahead of his urges towards violence he couldn't let himself give up being a normal person no matter how much he wanted to hurt people, his love for his family kept him grounded enough to shake off all those urges, but he wasn't truly happy, sure he lazily limited to life as a bystander and life felt empty even with his wife Maria and his kids Lisa and Frank Jr. He no longer had a calling or a direction. He certainly wasn't going to unleash his infinite fury on the cops or government or innocent civilians. He respects good men in uniforms who were just following orders. But then something tragic happens. The Castle family goes on a picnic in central park and they witness a mob hit and Frank and his family are executed because these guys can't have any witnesses, but by some miracle or curse, Frank survived his wounds and now things have changed, he found his answer to the magic solution to his inner conflict. He no longer had a family in a personal life holding him back or keeping him in the realm of sanity. Everything that pushed him to remain human and good was gone and worse yet he now had a target that he could go to war with and feel no guilt ocer. His war with crime will be neverending and he knows they'll always fight back presenting him with new challenges so he can adapt and overcome. Frank lost his family that day but he found himself his true calling in life was dropped right in his lap and now he can use all sorts of excuses to justify it as some kind of moral crusade. He mourns his family and he misses them, but he avenged them after a few days of being The Punisher, they can't be his sole motivation for doing what he does, sure he tries to promote the moral high-ground aspect and preach that the law doesn't work but that's all bravado really, he argues that he's there to protect the world in a way the law can't, but we all know that the idea that no one gets a trial and no one can be rehabilitated and no one deserves a second chance is well kind ofbullshit. The fact is Frank really could have chosen anyone to start his new war with because strategically killing armed oppoents is his happy place and it was an eventualities you go back to it, but hardened criminals just happen to fit his criteria well enough and he doesn't feel any lingering guilt over it, there is no moral conflict for him. Frank Castle doesn't want or care about revenge and he certainly isn't a versed of violence or conflicted about it unless he thinks he's done it to someone undeserving. If he thinks he feels like he's killing people who deserve it, he'll never flinch. Frank only finds himself conflicted if he hurts someone who isn't a bad person which even then he doesn't want to admit because of his pride he'd rather die than admit he was in the wrong. Because of all this Frank Castle is one of the most interesting fictional characters out there, but I say if you find his method and ideology reasonable, then you're just as out of touch as reality as Frank.

Which brings me to the Netflix version. In Daredevil season 2, he's everything he needs to be. He's driven, remorseless, brutal and excessive. He humiliates his biggest detractor Daredevil by forcing him to break his own moral code. He comes up with eleaborate and conniving plans like putting a corpse decoy in a truck for the police to shoot at or placing a razor blade in his own arm to free himself after getting caught on purpose and he even admits that killing felt good to him, he takes every opportunity he can to hurt bad people like this creep to tries to sell him child porn when he just needed information. This is the most Punisher moment in any adaptation. This guy had nothing to do with his revenge plot, he didn't have to kill this guy, but boy did he want to, so he did and he could sleep like a baby at night knowing he only tokk out his rage on someone that was a scumbag. It's easy to have Frank act more like himself when he's the antagonist and eventual reluctant backup for the hero of the story because that's exactly what he was conceived as a villain turned anti-hero and after trying to kill Spider-Man, he eventually decided to help him out because he felt no honor in killing him because Spider-Man's not a criminal.

As for his own show, they decided to turn him into a Wolverine and Jason Bourne type character. He lives a normal quiet life, swore off violence and killing and suddenly something happens forcing him to kill again and go after some bad guy that's wronged him or someone he cares about, throughout the story he proves to be a efficient killer which both impresses and frightens his allies and every time he kills someone else he feels both an exhilaration and a shame. He can't decide betweeen battling his inner demons, he was used to become a machine for his whole life and now he's afraid that it's all he's capable of and he pines for something more. That's a random Wolverine story, but that's what they do for Frank Castle in his own spin off show and instead of his family killed by a mob hit because they were witnesses, they die because of a Jason Bourne type plot. Frank Castle is a scary concept. He's an unhinged violent man that only finds solace in taking human lives, but he builds himself up on a perceived moral high ground so he doesn't have to pay attention to any of the people telling him that what he's doing is wrong. He acts like the real hero while it continues to be by definition a serial killer. I don't find The Punisher fascinating or interesting because I agree with his methods and viewpoint, I find him to be an amazing character because it's interesting to get in the mindset and philosophies of someone that is so far gone. The Punisher is a man with no humanity left. For him it's only his obsession with the ongoing war that he's chosen of his own free will to partake in. He's just going after any and every Mafia dirtbag he can find for decades in the comics because it's fun for him, sometimes they'll mix it  up a little and chase a super villain or a terrorist cell, but all that really matters to him is keeping the mission going. Not wiping out all crime, it goes without saying that killing every killer in the world is an impossible goal and he's content with that he's the dog that chases his own tail forever knowing full well that he won't ever get it because it's not about catching the tail. The Netflix version of Frank Castle never finds himself at a point of becoming utterly hollow. He comes damn close, but he doesn't quite reach that well-oiled unfeeling unwavering machine of death, maybe given a few more seasons of the show we could have finally gotten that, but as of season 2 this series ends with him just on the cusp. The Netflix version of the Punisher never just randomly hunts down a group of criminals to mowdown for catharsis. Every person he hunts down in season 2 of Daredevil is directly related to his family's death and then in season 1 of his show, it gets a little repetitive by revealing it was all just some crazy Jason Bourne conspiracy cover-up to take him out of the picture. Which is then punctuated by an entirely new group of dozens and dozens of people he needs to get revenge on while building up to wearing the skull. He essentially has to go through the same character arc twice in a row and by season 2 of his own show he's along for the ride in this other conspiracy theory that he just randomly sucked into with his own teen sidekick. He never really gets to be The Punisher from the comics.

Frank Castle is not heroic and making him heroic for his own show is just bad. Stan Lee himself is insulted whenever a fan suggests The Punisher is a hero, Stan is disgusted by this idea because he knows Frank Castle is a serial killer.

Frank Castle is best when he's just himself, a tactical genius of violent and unstoppable force of nature and a man with nothing to lose. There is a reason why I say Marvel villains don't tel ghost stories, Marvel villains tell Punisher stories.

oh poor emotionally injured grown man frank castle, he's just so righteously american and heartbroken by the loss of his perfect american dream family that he can’t help but go around shooting people uwu theres no way he could deal with his own shit without harming others lol and because of this we should feel very sorry for him. trauma automatically removes all responsibility from a person no other defending arguments needed

an anon asked a while back if i could write an essay explaining why i hate karen and kastle and me, being me, saved it in my asks until i could further explain to full capacity. my response?

absolutely. i’ve had this ask in my inbox for quite a few weeks, since before the release of the punisher. in order for people to understand my view points and beliefs, we must take off any shipping goggles we might have and view it from a fairly objective view point. (i’ve also added my own gifs to this because eh, why not?) also, this got quite long so under a cut it goes. also, it sort of gets messy but bear with me. (word count: 2.5k)

we’ll first begin with miss karen page. first introduced as a girl being framed for a murder she did not commit; a fresh breath of air, of sorts, in a show focusing mainly on foggy and matt, two men. as the first season moves on, we see that she’s interested in discovering more about union allied, who attempted to frame her, and that eventually leads her to ben urich, a reporter who, in his heyday, followed thrilling and intense cases and wrote groundbreaking articles. now, though, since he’s aged and has more concern for his life and job--which he needs to support his dying wife while she’s in the hospital--he writes whatever his editor wants him to. he’s fine with this. in fact, he’s comfortable with this.

the issue, though? karen essentially pushes him back into this type of work, bringing him into her hunt on union allied which he explicitly stated, multiple times, that he did not wish to do. he knows how this will likely end--he even tells her as much, reminding her that he’s old now, and he’s “a lot less stupid”. while we can’t entirely fault her for coercing him into working with her, since he is a grown man and he can make his own decisions, she was the cause of the events that led up to, and caused, his death. yes, a white woman caused a black man’s death. unsurprising news when you’re black.

after his death, though? karen--who holds absolutely no relation to him--gets the ownership of his car, which could have gone towards paying his wife’s hospital bills, and his job, despite having absolutely no credentials or prior experience. that is a fine example of white privilege. never worked or trained a day in that work, ever, and yet she gets his job. i know this isn’t real life, but it’s a piece of realistic fiction. it should be realistic---which, i guess, it is, since the only way someone with no credentials or experience in journalism is going to get a job is if they’re white. also, this is marvel netflix’s first example of violently murdering a black person in their series (which they do in every one of their series), so that leaves a foul taste in my mouth, as a black person.

and next came the, what i like to call “weirdly random ooc #female badassness! wannabe episode”, aka the episode where she kills wesley, stating that she’s fired a gun before and insinuated that she’s killed before. not only does she get off scot free for this (which, by the way, never would have happened unless she was white), but it’s also never mentioned ever again. it was a needless act that was ludicrous in execution and inserting into the narrative. it was just a way to say “look! our blonde haired beauty is a badass haha :)”

season two comes along, and it’s shown that she’s digging up information about the punisher while also going on dates with matt. eventually, though, she meets frank for who he is and this is what i call the sort of beginning of manipulation, at least for her, but i’ll be getting more into depth about this later. in the last few episodes, she gives frank an ultimatum -- stop being the punisher, or she’ll walk away. you’ll recall that in the defenders, she also gave matt the same ultimatum, which is a form of manipulation and underlying abuse. karen can not accept that these mens’ alter egos is who they are inside, and that causes for her to make them choose between her and doing what they want to do. having experienced such abuse from the hands of ex friends in the past, it sealed the deal for my disdain for her.

the main thing i dislike about karen is how she’s written in a way where it’s as if she can do no wrong. and fandom’s behavior definitely perpetuates that. she’s seen as a “#perfect cinnamon roll” or a “#goddess” or a saint or whatever fandom is referring to her as. she truly is not all that, yet the writers tend to portray her as such. (needless to say that in the comics, she sold matt’s identity as daredevil for drugs, but that’s beside the point.) she does not deserve to be held to such a high pedestal, and fandom, specifically certain individuals in the fandom, should not hate people who point out valid criticism of her because they can’t see it from any perspective that isn’t their own.

on that note, fandom is a large part of my hatred for characters or ships. fandom never knows how to be normal and they either detest you for not liking their favorite character / ship, or don’t listen to you at all.

when it comes to kastle, though, things are more simple to explain. (as of writing, i am currently on the third episode of the punisher and going slowly through it for obvious reasons.) the entire reason frank does what he does, is because of the death of his family. of his children, of his wife. he relives that all throughout season two of daredevil despite claiming to not have ptsd, and we see it even more intensely in the punisher. he thinks of his wife and children every day, without fail--often times its the first thing he thinks of, and the last thing he thinks of. even a year to two years after their death, the wound is still raw and he is very much not over it.

so why, pray tell, is the ship kastle a thing? he is not, in anyway capable of having or maintaining a healthy relationship as of right now--nor might he ever. the fact that people could excuse this obviously damaged man’s feelings just to ship him with fandom’s white fave, thinly veiled self insert character is saddening and bordering on disgusting. he hasnt even had the chance to heal or breathe and everyone’s already shipping him with her?

matt said that karen deserves better than him. “better than [matt]” does not equal “you should date frank”. frank, himself, says that karen is in love with matt. he compares that love to him and his wife, who he’s not over. karen understands this and accepts this -- she is in love with matt, just as frank is in love with maria, still.

his love for maria is further solidified in the first episode of the punisher, when he repeatedly relives good moments that he had with maria and reminisces on the things that he loved about her through his memories. he, in every way, needs healing. what he does not need is a relationship. that would be one of the last things that he needs, especially after going through all that he has. the death and loss of his family was one of the most traumatic things he’s experienced, to the point that he takes it upon himself to track every single person connected to their murder and kill them, even going so far as juarez, mexico, to do so. six months after that is not enough time for the emotional stability that frank needs before a relationship with anyone could even be considered.

after frank kills schoonover, karen is visibly upset.

she didn’t want him to kill someone, and she even goes so far as to tell him that he can’t keep doing what he’s doing, otherwise, they’re through, and she’s walking. (to which he obviously keeps doing what he’s doing and doesn’t look back as he leaves her in the woods.)

going back a bit, in episode ten, after his escape, she’s afraid of him to the point that she draws a gun on him.

(needless to say the scene right after this is everyone’s beloved #zomg kastle!! scene. everyone seems to ignore what happened right before that scene though. hm. wonder why.)

does that even seem like a good relationship build up? he makes her cry out of a fear for him, she gives him an ultimatum, manipulating him, she pulls a gun on him and absolutely can kill him, as seen since she’s murdered wesley and has apparently done so before in the past. he has no reason to believe that she won’t pull that trigger, and the audience, aside from knowing that the punisher is too iconic of a character to kill off, has no reason to believe that she won’t pull that trigger. why not? she’s done it before on screen, and she showed us what she’s capable of doing.

she doesn’t get the chance to because her apartment is shot up and frank, the good person that he is, ducks down and protects her. because he’s a good person, and she’s someone he can consider, at this point, to be a sort of “friend”. (i’m like, 90% sure none of you guys have ever had any good things happen to you from good people or that yall have friends and cant tell the difference between friendship love and romantic love, since yall ship this, but i rest my case.)

a fun scene i saw pop up in the anti kastle tag -- a post written by a shipper -- was the scene in the punisher where someone refers to karen as “his girlfriend, and takes that as a sign. please, i know we all know better than this. people tease people all the time when it comes to friends, especially attractive ones, typically those of the opposite gender. i can’t list the number of times that one of my childhood friends was called “my boyfriend” by my family or i was called “his girlfriend” by his. it would be completely ludicrous to presume that that sort of comment meant anything other than a jest or a poke at frank’s expense. that’s what friends are like, that’s a universal experience for most people who have friends. it does not hint towards that ship or somehow verify it. thats not what the comment was. by thinking it verifies the ship in some way, you’re all effectively making a mountain out of...dust.

finally, let’s talk about fandom’s need to show their ass when it comes to their ableism. frank castle has ptsd, albeit he is in denial of such a fact. fandom often writes fics and headcanons that if kastle was canon, karen could “fix” frank of his ptsd and “make the pain go away”. for one thing, ptsd does not go away. it doesn’t. being with someone does not make it go away. i know fandom likes to see karen as a saint or an angel or a goddess, but she’s human. even if kastle were to happen, the ptsd would still be there. frank isnt going to magically be “cured” because he’s dating karen page. the fact that this is such a common fandom headcanon is ableist in and of itself. as an abuse survivor still living in an abusive situation, fandom needs to understand that ptsd does not go away. it can be lessened, yes, but it does not go away. an event such as watching your entire family get slaughtered before your very eyes does not go away, especially when said person repeatedly has flash backs of said event. you cannot expect it to. this is part of the reason why the fandom, itself, sickens me.

also, there are volatile tendencies on both sides. as karen isn’t the sole person to blame for why this ship borders on toxicity (almost as bad as the fandom); frank is, as well. due to his volatile nature, and her stubborn and subtle manipulations, as well as the fact that neither of them, specifically frank, are in a position to be in a relationship with anyone (karen as well, considering matt, who she canonically loves, has just appeared to die), makes this ship unable to work. it cannot work and it does not work despite fandom’s perpetual pleas to make it work, likely due to the fact that karen is the self insert character for women all across the fandom, typically and most often, from what i’ve seen, the white women. (needless to say that comics canon karen is so vastly different from show karen that she might as well be a self insert oc at this point.) these are the same white women who will likely regard this as “misogyny” and label it as just “another hater hating”. that is not what i am, but if thats your prerogative, to demonize a black woman for pointing out valid criticisms and flaws found in the beloved ship and the white woman, thats not my problem.

so, in conclusion, why do i hate karen? mainly due to the fact that her white privilege gets her a job, a car of a dead man with a dying wife, who’s dead as a result of her actions, and, of course, fandom and their constant push to make her a savior of some kind, here to “fix” frank. why do i hate kastle? because of fandom’s desire to show their ableism in wanting karen to “fix” frank of his ptsd and thinking that a relationship with the woman who gave him an ultimatum and manipulated him in order to act the way that she wanted him to is anywhere near “romantic”. volatile relationships built on past fear of the other and aiming a gun at the other is not a good foundation for any ship. since their meeting, they were known as being in love with other people, and they are currently in a space where they believe their loves are dead. why would someone’s first reaction be to ship them with each other? why would someone’s first reaction be to ship the man who regularly has nightmares and panic attacks about the death of his family and his wife with someone else when he is obviously still in mourning? why would someone’s first reaction be to ship the woman who was crying, sobbing as she attempted to keep him from doing what he wanted to, who was so afraid of him to the point that she held him at gunpoint? where does any of this set the foundations of a good ship?

and why would one ship it?

Um, well, this is a thing. I wrote this late at night, mostly based on conversations between these two lovely people @tiffanyvalentineisqueen @soft-murdock I hope it is nice to read! Fratt is good for the soul, afterall!

//I do hope this doesn't offend, it wasn't meant to! Not your cup of tea, don't pay any mind! C:

Frank let out a soft, almost inaudible noise at Karen's continuous whining about the mission he was on, his heart beginning to leap dangerously up to his throat. Frank could take some whining, but from Karen? The woman who reminded him of his daughter so much- he couldn't take it. All it did was make him see images, all of them of holding dead bodies, flesh and guts, all of them dead, dead and he couldn't- Frank's breathing began to get ragged and his fists clenched. He knew what was coming, he knew what was-

"Karen, Fog, Frank!" Came an oh so familiar voice, and the tension already started to leave. /Red/. Right when Matt entered the room Frank knew the man sensed something, because he was over to him in an instant. "Frank? Hey, are you okay?" Matt murmured, the altar boy almost whining. "I just... Need to step out, I need-" Frank got bad at communication before his attacks, but Matt knew. "The color red, huh?" Their precious code word. Frank nodded hurriedly, and in mere moments Matt had Frank in a seat in another room, stroking through his hair and whispering soft words. Whenever Frank would think of Karen, his pulse jumping, Matt would whisper and pull him back. The blind man was everything to Frank, he helped much more than any therapist. He was Frank's world, a much less toxic one than Karen provided.

“Karen is Frank’s friend and confidant, but more importantly, he couldn’t do it without her. Woll told BUST that although “[they] established a pretty strong bond between Frank and Karen, in Daredevil season 2” their relationship isn’t romantic, but just “a really nice, natural, organic way to carry that through” into The Punisher. “ Deborah Ann Woll for Bust

Don’t mind me I’ll be over here sipping patiently my hot tea waiting to spill it all over y’all