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dmclemblems · 1 year

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A couple things confuse me about the "Edelgard was never the Flame Emperor in Hopes so that's why people are acting differently with her" thing people try to say to explain GW and SB.

1) 3H almost never makes it a narrative focus that Edelgard was the Flame Emperor, just that the Flame Emperor as a separate entity was bad. Barring Dimitri, barely anyone says "hey wow, Edelgard sure is a giant fucking asshole since we know she's the Flame Emperor" - they're more like "wow, can't believe she smeckledorfed us like that, not based and kinda cringe." So many people go "I don't wanna fight her tho, I regret having to fight her :/" as though the fact that she clearly never gave a shit about any of them, proven by her lying about being the Flame Emperor for damn near a year, doesn't mean anything to them. She's still their beloved classmate, no matter what she does to a lot of them, so I don't see why it's only now that they'd suddenly give THIS much of a shit about something they never put focus on before. And to the extent that they'd 180 on their characters just to be chill with her.

2) What actual, substantial difference is there between "I am willing to torture my citizens by turning them into Demonic Beasts," and "I will torture my citizens by slowly starving them through my war that is draining away the country's food supplies"? She is still needlessly and cruelly making her people go through suffering, just because it isn't as loud as Aegir mindlessly pillaging shit doesn't mean she isn't still responsible for mass suffering and death of her own citizens. And this isn't even getting into the rest of Fodlan either, who she is similarly ruining/ending the lives of in similarly cruel, torturous ways. But it's not specifically Demonic Beasts or specifically with TWS, so suddenly she's fine? It's morally acceptable for certain characters to join her for no reason other than her (lying) words? Hell, being a pragmatic, amoral asshole for a second - at least a weapon's being made with the Demonic Beasts method of slow and cruel death, the starving citizens do no good for anyone!

I dunno, just seems like a pretty thin straw to reach for to explain why certain characters (WINK WINK) act so wildly OOC :/

Preface after writing: I'm sorry, this is stupid long and two months late. I hope it being stupid long makes up for the wait. :D... :'D...

Yeah, the Flame Emperor portion of her character has nothing to do with Hopes. Between both games, Dimitri treats her completely differently because she didn't do the same things and he has a very direct attachment to her and TWS both, but other characters don't just like her more because she wasn't the Flame Emperor.

For example, Dimitri never spirals into the mess he became in Houses because Edelgard never hid her identity, and the Flame Emperor was very openly allied with TWS. Edelgard in Hopes broke off her ties with them as soon as the game really begins, i.e. post the prologue (in all routes, but you only see it actually be discussed in her route).

I do agree it's a flaw in the writing that they kind of switch on the whole "the Flame Emperor is a bad person" to deciding they don't agree with that anymore once they know who it is. What she did doesn't change just because she was "someone else" at the time, the same way Dimitri's actions don't change just because he was "someone else" for those five years. Difference being, there are actually allied characters who hold Dimitri accountable for it, and Dimitri holds himself accountable too. Just another instance of the writing making women wound like saints because they gotta sell their merch. I'm saying that as a woman, mind you, and it's frutsrating that gender dictactes how a story gets written. Gender also doesn't define someone's personality and who they are, so it shouldn't make a story geared around uwu waifu not bad, we don't wanna fight her.

The thing is, this is one of the problems people have with the narrative of Houses is not committing. It's true that Edelgard didn't care about a lot of people because she explicitly didn't let herself care, because she went into the year fully expecting and being aware of her inevitable "betrayal" (which I quote because she didn't really intend to be friends with them to begin with, so in her view it's probably not really a betrayal. It would be to them, but not so much to her).

It's also true that she decides to "care" about people who side with her simply for siding with her. Unfortunately the writing can't commit to kepeing her consistent as a character because they don't want her to be the villain because it's harder to market villains. That is, in part, why TWS exists, because they're meant to be the 'true villains".

Basically, TWS exists to make Edelgard look better as a person. Since they made her look pretty and cute, they didn't want to commit to making her a more villainous person, despite openly saying in an interview that they made her the villain. If she were a man, they would have made her more of a villain.

Regarding Houses and her evils:

The characters are sad about classmates being their enemies, but they set aside all the bad things as soon as they know the ringleader is a woman. Remember how they all considered her a horrible villain who had to be taken down when they knew her as the Flame Emperor? They thought the Flame Emperor was a man. As soon as it turns out that, that very same person was a woman they uwu went to school with, they don't think he's such a horrible villain who needs to be taken down anymore.

The point of the first half of Houses is that you're involved in all these happy academy days (as far as their relationships go, less so about the missions and stuff). They all trust each other and see each other as people they will one day have to work alongside. Suddenly they find out a pair among the students were plotting against them and weren't really ever on their side. The people they met in school were, in some ways, "fake". They weren't their true selves because they were in enemy territory the whole time (even if they were safe there, but in their minds these were enemies).

Like, personally, would I feel bad when I found out these people were lying to me the whole time and planned to kill me one day if I didn't agree with them? lol no. The characters went from thinking her actions were horrific to "well let's hear her out because she's actually our friend, even though for being our 'friend' we actually know nothing about her and our 'friend' lied to us the whole time".

Regarding Hopes and her supposed lack of evils:

In Hopes, even though none of that is there, it's still true she lied to them and was their enemy. It's still true she started a war and did all the same things from there, and in fact, some of it she actually had to do herself because she broke off with TWS. This includes trying to invade the Kingdom, which Cornelia was the one to do and succeed in doing in Houses. However, Edelgard herself, and the might of the Empire, is canonically not enough to subdue the Kingdom in Hopes. This does mean, however, that she had to do the deeds herself and cou;pdn't hide behind anyone else.

Breaking it down for why she seems less evil in Hopes though, we have SB. Technically both the Empire and Alliance took on the Kingdom, meaning that the Empire alone couldn't handle it. Reminder that, Dimitri, Dedue and Felix all survive SB, so the Empire can't take down three of the strongest fighters in the Kingdom (so less people die, because in SB she's not allied with TWS and does nothave the strength given to her by them, such as the beasts). Ingrid went out specifically to die because she planned to fight as long as possible so Dimitri could get away, meaning she never intended to survive that battle. Sylvain went out in a fit of rage seeking revenge for Ingrid, so his head wasn't on straight and he wasn't fighting with his brain, but his emotions.

Could they have taken these people down otherwise? Sylvain, no. He's too smart. If he wasn't so angry he would have backed off as soon as he realized he was overmatched in that battle. He wouldn't have died there because Dimitri wasn't there to die for, and neither was Felix. Also, he's not nearly as suicidal in this game. If he wasn't seeking revenge, he wouldn't have died, plain and simple. Could they have beaten Ingrid normally? No, because similarly, she would've retreated if she didn't go into the battle planning to fight until she died. She would've left to continue protecting her friends, home and king.

What this means is that she looks less bad because less people died, meaning her war killed less named and beloved characters. The difference though is that it doesn't make her less evil - it just means that alone, her might isn't capable of taking these people down. She needs to be allied with another army to win her war, which is why she took with TWS in the first place in Houses. Since they wanted her to look better in Hopes, she ditched them... but that means she still needs allies for her war. She knows she can't take down the Kingdom alone and they're allied with the Church, and she knows she can't take down Rhea because Rhea is a dragon.

Then there's GW, which just makes Edelgard look FUNNY. It's Claude who has to invade the Kingdom, because she can't break through the west front. Even after Claude fights in Fhirdiad, she still can't take down the west front. This means that, not only did the Empire have people do their bidding for what they weren't strong enough to do, but they had to take any other matters into their own hands for what TWS wouldn't help with in this story. It means Edelgard had to dirty her hands because they weren't there to do it, and she just wasn't strong enough to win her own war.

Remember, in SB, she doesn't win her own war. Her enemies kill each other, and the Kingdom is weakened because she allied with another army to fight them because she doesn't have the strength to do it herself. She looks less evil in Hopes because, being totally frank and not even saying this out of a hatred for her, she's weak. She's too weak to actually win and conquer, and she looks worse if she wins and takes control of all the lands she stomped on to win. When she loses, she looks better because she's not the tyrannical leader of all of Fodlan. In Hopes, no matter what route you're on, Edelgard does not win the war and does not achieve anything with her own army's strength. In CF, she does win because her allies are TWS for the entire game and they're only defeated post game because the game's duration is her war, which she needed them for the entirety of to actually win.

In GW, she doesn't win the war. She doesn't defeat Rhea, instead leaving that to Claude, who had Shez in his army (and was probably the only one with the actual power to rival Rhea's, for obvious reasons).

This also is why the kingdom survives and is never taken over. In Houses, it was never Edelgard's strength that conquered it. However, it does mean every single thing that happened in the war was on her head, because there was no TWS to take the fall for her the bad things that happened.

How it looks on her character:

So, looking at it from both ways, to sum it up... why are they so upset that they have to fight their classmate, who lied to them and was faking around them? Why are they upset about fighting her when she's been doing all this stuff in the war by her own desires and orders? There's no getting mad at TWS for what she does.

The Empire when pitted against the Kingdom can't win without allies, and Edelgard presumbly knew that in Houses and had allies - TWS. In Hopes, she gets Claude on her side because she can't do, well, jack shit to the Kingdom without him. Without something unexpected in the mix (the Alliance in Hopes, TWS in Houses), the Kingdom's strength is enough to defend.

Since TWS are her enemies in this story, she never actually wins. She doesn't lose, but she doesn't win. The only reason she doesn't lose is because she allied with another army (who she was canonically losing to in both routes anyway).

So basically, how do the writers make up for Edelgard not teaming up with TWS here? They have her use the Alliance instead, making her look better for not siding with TWS. To make her look even better, they have TWS do horrific things as a third party to it all, independently fucking around and making Edelgard have to go stop them. It makes TWS look like the worst of all scum, and it props up the "less evil" villains.

In GW, Claude does shady shit because ??? and that also makes Edelgard look better because she's very up front and doesn't do tactics the way he does. She's very forthright and if she didn't want to ally with the Alliance, she would have said as much and not have teamed up with them to stab them in the back later. Instead, that's given to Claude because, well, let's face it, it makes him look worse than her. She also gets no flak for killing Rhea in this game because she can't, because she doesn't have the power TWS gave her. She fights Rhea, certainly, even with Shez's power... but it's not enough. Rhea survives everything you do and only dies against Thales.

So basically, Edelgard is just weak and incapable of winning in this game, and it makes her look better and nicer, since she doesn't have the ability to use Demonic Beasts. The characters feel like upset because she did "less evil" things and killed fewer people (again, because she's not capable of doing so).

And again, I'm not even saying that out of hate. Edelgard admits they needed TWS in CF if they were going to win the war. Consequently, she doesn't win the war in any route in Hopes because she splits off from them in all routes.

No, it doesn't make her a better person or more worthy of people's pity, but they used Claude as a means of having someone else do worse things than her to make the characters doubt Claude while believing wholly in Edelgard for being so forthright. Since TWS is worse than Claude, it makes a tier of "bad", and she's at the very bottom of it. Thus, the characters see her in a better light and don't want to kill her.

Other stuff:

In AG it's actually kinda interesting, because even though the Empire has fallen because of Thales, literally nobody pities Edelgard for the situation she ended up in. Nobody feels bad about it and nobody thinks man, we should save Edelgard, she isn't the one who made the Empire fall into ruin like this. They still understand she's the one who started this war and enabled enough of a situation for TWS to take advantage of it. She gave them the opening instead of fighting them in the first place.

Even if you went along with her strategy of siding with the Church to take out TWS, but then she betrays the Church and starts her war against them because she also sees them as her enemy, that would have been the most reasonable strategy. Side with the Church, take out the strongest enemy first so they can't run around wreaking havoc while you ignore them to fight your war, then deal with the Church after when they won't have distractions and a potential other enemy creeping up on them.

Point being, it was stupid to start a war against the Church after simply driving out Thales from the capital. She should've waited to start the war until they'd taken out TWS completely. Why didn't they do this? Because they needed TWS in the story to make her look like a better person. Removing them too soon would mean she can't go back and stop their destruction. She can't seem like the better person because there's nobody worse than her. By making her strategy, well, let's face it, incredibly stupid to the point even Hubert told her outright not to do it/that he didn't agree with it, it made her look, well, honestly, dumb... but a better person in the long run.

Like I said, in AG it's done in a more interesting way because her situation doesn't get pitied by anyone. The people loyal to her are still loyal to her, but that's about it. None of her enemies feel sorry for her. None of them see that her war brought about something bad on her (i.e. being controlled by Thales) and went awww poor thing. She reaps what she sows and faces the consequeces of both starting a war and not being smart about it (i.e. dealing with TWS altogether at the start or remaining allied with them until the war was over like in CF). The characters in AG see it for it was, and Edelgard had to have known that there would be potential consequences of doing what she did.

Even at the very end, Dimitri doesn't pity her when she her mentality reverts to a child's. He doesn't feel it necessary to stain his hands with her blood at that point because the war is over. If she was still a threat they would defeat her but she wasn't, and she also didn't have any memory of starting the war, so killing her would be for nothing but personal gain, which at that point Dimitri didn't have. If anything, it might have staved off even more more because the emperor would be returned home safely, and possibly even by Dimitri (because I can't imagine the Church would do it after she declared explicitly on them, and I doubt Claude would even care to do it because he has no history with her like Dimitri does) or someone he trusts.

The Empire would need to focus on dealing with what happened to her, and they wouldn't be in a position to keep fighting or even need to since the person who wanted the war doesn't even have the memories leading up to why the war was started. All they could really do at that point was take care of her and decide what to do about leadership (and in this moment, we're going to prefend Ferdinand wasn't killed offscreen. They didn't say he was, so he wasn't! Got it? Yeah? Great!).

This last part doesn't really have much to do with your ask, but I wanted to add it in as a contrast to the way SB/GW were written and how they did make her seem like a better person than Claude. They made it seem like she was less bad for doing whats he did with her own hands this time because there was no TWS to do it for her. AG flips that on its head and says no, we don't care that she ended up in a bad situation because she brought it on herself. They said no, we're not going to pity her just because someone worse than her came along because she still did what she did.

Imo AG was just a much more refreshing and realistic take. They didn't look at her and see uwu classmate. They looked at her and saw the woman who started a war and knew what she was doing. Just because she lost in her own war and just because someone got the jump on her didn't make her worth pitying.

Instead, we get a wholly satisfying conclusion to the Duscur story, whcih was completely dropped in AM and probably because they ran out of chapters. We can bring a literal army of victims from that tragedy with us and have them be able to face the person who caused all of it. Since Duscur was also allied with Faerghus for a long while at this point, it wraps up that storyline in a nice, neat bow. The only thing left is to assume that things with Duscur went well and that Claude determined starting a new war over the Church just wasn't worth it.

Claude post AG (in contrast to him in the other routes):

Yes, I think Claude considered taking advantage of an existing war to fight the Church and might have done so in Hopes if Edelgard wasn't out of commission, because if she wasn't the war would continue. However, the war was over right then and there and more fighting on his part would just be a really stupid move that would turn everyone around him against him.

The war ended, the person who started it lost, and the third party was defeated. People would not want to fight another war just because Claude doesn't understand Fodlan at all in this game. Quite ironic that Edeglgard's rhetoric to him in VW about not knowing enough about Fodlan to lead it was completely true in this game... or maybe they did that on purpose to make her look better! Again! :D :'D

So yeah, Claude didn't start another war after AG ended. I say that, of course, assuming AG Claude has a brain and knows how to use it. Also, I don't think he would want to make enemies of the Kingdom at that point. If his goal remained to bring people together, he had already succeeded in getting every territory on the same page by allying with the sides opposing Edelgard in the first place.

The only people left are the Empire's people, who weren't in a position to fight and would probably just agree to an allying sort of truce so that all of Fodlan was on the same page. Even without Hubert or Ferdinand, they have Waldemar, and he's smart enough imo to make the right moves there. Claude has no reason to start a new war/renew an existing war that just ended when now that there's no war to just jump into to use as an excuse for something, he can just use words and his presumably route working brain to figure out how to work with the Church. Like, you know, he does in VW.

#this is two months late im so sorry ahjfgsahfd #also I recall it being somewhere in Houses that she knows their army can't win their war alone #hence allying with TWS. her army needed their power to actually get through her win #and I recall her saying that she has to wait to fight them specifically bc she needed them for the war #i.e. she knew if she ditched them too soon that she wouldn't win #that's what made her route sound initially interesting in Hopes bc she did ditch them #but it also proved her points in CF that she didn't have the strength to win the war she started #she was losing to the Alliance in GW and SB both iirc #the best way to win her war would be - well - to ally with someone better than her in strength #get the strong people on her side to fight her war for her bc she can't do it. TWS was also that in Houses #however in CF she actually wins while allied with horrific people. it makes her look worse #in SB she doesn't win no matter what route you're on and allies with normal people #in CF she crushes TWS after the story but she ultimately has an ending that expresses oppression #her ending mural and the fact that she started a war and destroyed all opposing powers is the evidence of that #in Hopes she crushed... nothing. nobody. her enemies crushed each other bc Rhea determined that TWS #was a much worse threat /for Fodlan/ than Edelgard was and so chose to die fighting Thales #presumably she figured whoever was left in Fodlan could deal with Edelgard later without her help #i.e. Claude and Dimitri who are still alive in one version of SB and Dimitri who is still alive in the other #so either way in SB there will ALWAYS be opposition to her war because /she will always be stuck between not winning or losing/#she doesn't get to win and be the big bad leader of Fodlan. it makes her look like a better person #ALSO (him in the other routes): is perfect bc it made a frowny face JKDGUJGF LOL #DCE Ask

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