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zuko-always-lies · 2 months

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What exactly were everyone's character arcs supposed to be?

This is an interesting question for ATLA, and one sometimes without a clear answer. Some characters have reasonably complete character arcs, and others simply don't, to a degree which is often not acknowledged today. A few are in-between. This not necessarily a function of screen time. Jet and Yue have reasonably complete character arcs despite only briefly appearing, while others with far more screen time do not.

Without further ado, I'll go through the characters one by one and try to give an answer:

Yue, as I said, has a story which feels complete with a beginning, middle, and end. She's a very duty bound person committed a political marriage to help her tribe, a person who was saved by the holy symbols of it in the first place. Then she falls in love with Sokka but refuses to break off her engagement out of duty. And finally she sacrifices her life out of duty to save everyone.

Jet also feels like he has an arc. You can take issue with how it was written and how it plays out, since he really got the short straw, but it's an arc. From being orphaned by the Iroh-aligned Rough Rhinos, to fighting the Fire Nation and going "too far," to trying to make a new start in Ba Sing Se, to correctly getting suspicious about Zuko and Iroh, to being brainwashed by the Dai Li, to dying fighting against Long Feng. It's not nearly as coherent as Yue's arc, but it's something.

Suki, by contrast, doesn't have much of an arc. I've heard before the concept of "character arc" being defined as "either the character changes or the audience's perception of them changes." Neither of those things ever happen with Suki. She remains unchanged, and we learn nothing really about her. The only meaningful character change which happens is that she and Sokka fall in love.

Aang quite obviously has an arc: grow into the position of Avatar, defeat the Firelord, befriend Zuko, and the end the war. And, of course, get together with Katara.

Zuko also has an arc, which the show probably spends more time on than with anyone else: change sides, become friends with the Gaang(although that bit was very poorly written), and reject his abusive father and instead start worshipping his uncle. And I suppose grow strong enough to beat the crap out of his sister, like he's always wanted to do.

Iroh, by contrast, couldn't have less of an arc. Any attempt to read an arc into the mess of extremely incoherent writing he was would require extreme charity. In the end, we're supposed to both accept he "changed" offscreen before the show(that his arc was already mostly complete?) but also that he was "always good" anyways.

Toph doesn't have an arc. 90% of her character development, such as it was, is confined to her first two appearances. After that, she's merely a hanger on to the Gaang. As much as people love her, there is so little to her story. Her character is better defined than Suki, but her story isn't.

Azula is supposed to have an arc. It's supposed to be about falling apart, going insane, and being lain low. But it was extremely rushed and shoved unconvincingly into the last few episodes, and the writers were uninterested in explaining what actually happened to make her fall apart, so I struggle to say she has anything resembling a coherent arc.

Ty Lee also doesn't have an arc. Her arc, such as it was imagined, was supposed to "betray Azula." Yet none of the character development she gets over the series leads in that direction, and we have every reason to believe she would have acted the same at the beginning of the series as she did at the end. And of course there was no "redemption" aside from switching sides for her.

Mai has slightly more of an arc than Ty Lee, but that's only because it involves her getting together with Zuko and eventually sacrificing herself to protect him. Otherwise, it's about as coherent as Ty Lee's arc.

Sokka's arc is an interesting one. I would say that there are four things they experiment with as the basis for his arc. First, there is his distrust for Aang, which is rapidly resolved. Second is his sexism, which is equally rapidly resolved. Third is unease over being a nonbender, but that's only rarely referenced over the course of the series, and is fully "resolved" in the truly awful episode "Sokka's Master" early in Book 3. Finally, there is the issue of his daddy issues and his desire to prove himself as a warrior. That is something his story keeps coming back to over and over again. However, it is almost entirely resolved in the Day of Black Sun episodes, where Sokka leads the SWT in battle, despite a couple weird later references in the Boiling Rock episodes. Thus, I would Sokka has an arc, but it's resolved well before the series ends.

Finally, we reach Katara. I don't think Katara really has much of a coherent arc in the series. In Book 1, it was all about her trying to become a master waterbender, but she achieves that by the end of the Book. After that, her character lacks clear direction. What's her story supposed to be about after that? Getting together with Aang? "Forgiving Zuko"? The daddy issues which show up for exactly one episode? The conflict with Toph which shows up for two? "Accepting that ordinary Fire Nation people are people too," even though she was always shown to be compassionate to ordinary Fire Nation people not actively engaged in genocide? The "mommy issues" which she often brings up but which are rarely taken seriously by the show, and are ultimately used to get her to forgive Zuko (two separate times!)? All of these seem completely unworthy of hanging her arc on, and I have to say, I don't think Katara has much of a coherent arc past Book 1.

If we had to order these characters in terms of coherence of arc from most to least, it would probably go something like: Aang, Zuko, Yue, Jet, Sokka, Katara, Azula, Mai, Ty Lee, Iroh, Toph, Suki.

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balanceoflightanddark · 1 year

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Iroh: The Missed Opportunity

I will be the first to admit it: I am not the biggest fan of Iroh. Or rather, I'm not the biggest fan of how he is presented in the franchise nor by anyone who insists that he was a saint that could do no wrong.

Cause he did do wrong. He was the man responsible for behind the bloody 600-Day Siege of Ba Sing Se. Even if he ultimately relented, that was only when his son was killed and after he had waged a bloody campaign that spread great suffering throughout the Earth Kingdom. It's a black mark against him that calls into question whether or not he's really as saintly as the series (at least post Book 1) makes him out to be. It especially calls into question his position as Zuko's mentor and whether or not he's truly the person who should be guiding him on the path of redemption.

Which...ironically should've been something that made him more fascinating than the jolly old uncle people envision him as.

Think about it: if Iroh was a warmongering general, that would bring into question almost all his advice to Zuko. What experiences colored his perception and wisdom, and how that would affect his nephew who idolizes him. It would bring into question Zuko's own morality and redemption arc if he's basing himself so much on Iroh's approval, a man who not too long ago was fighting for the Fire Nation. Sure, there's no doubt Iroh would want to help Zuko, but his instincts as a general and manipulations into preparing his nephew for the role of Fire Lord would interfere with what Zuko needs now.

The idea of a flawed father figure isn't a new one, but there's a reason it has a lot of staying power. For example: Long John Silver from Treasure Island is a pirate, yes, but his mentor figure to Jim Hawkins along with their dynamic was what made him an enduring character. Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars kept vital information from Luke about his father which strains his relationship with him, but it's implied he was suffering from PTSD and was having issues with the truth himself. Lord Shimura from Ghost of Tsushima genuinely cares about Jin's wellbeing, but their clashing ideologies leads their relationship to tragedy.

You can make flawed father characters work. And that's how Iroh should've been written. There should've been more doubt. Of what advice and wisdom is coming from a place of genuine heart or from a past of conquest. And Zuko blindly accepting his every word, but then learning to forge his own path would've made for a much stronger redemption arc instead of being handheld the whole way through. Especially since it's that craving for acceptance which led to his toxic relationship with Ozai in the first place.

Instead, Iroh was turned into a saint, a flawless figure. The general forgotten in favor of the goofy wise uncle. And so too was any nuance that came from his character.

#iroh #atla iroh #uncle iroh #iroh meta #iroh critical #...kinda. more about his writing than the character himself #zuko #prince zuko #atla meta #atla critical

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hello-nichya-here · 2 years

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If Iroh doesn't acknowledge Azula as a victim of abuse, that means he can't relate to her, therefore Iroh either wasn't abused by his family or he was abused in a different way from Azula. Or maybe the truth is he just doesn't want to understand her. I really don't get why he's more sympathetic toward his brother who mutilated his beloved nephew's life. Like, what is he thinking, exactly? Perhaps his reasoning isn't supposed to go side by side with logic, but rather with feelings or sth. Here are my only guesses why Iroh doesn't care about Azula

1) She reminds him of his younger self that he wants to forget (which I don't even think has a point in saying how much is unfair to Azula)

2) She's a "hindrance" to Zuko

Sexism??? Idk. Actually no I don't think Iroh is a sexist based on his interactions with other women we saw so I'm not counting it, but you're welcome to correct me.

Iroh is not dumb enough to not comprehend what kind of situation Azula is in, but he's selfish enough to do zero shit about it. And for the ppl yelling "he was protecting Zuko from her" bitch pls. Azula didn't harass Zuko from the day she was born yet even when she and Zuko were children and their relationship wasn't so fucked up (which Iroh totally could have interfered with after he came back from war and even prior to that) he didn't give a shit. This man never cared about his neice, even before they became enemies. (No, the doll was not him showing her love lmao) Tell me then, if Iroh genuinely wants to guide Zuko on the right path and shield him from misfortune, why has Iroh never tried to pit Zuko against his real abuser, Ozai? Or do you want to tell me that Azula has somehow abused Zuko more than him? Why, throughout Zuko's whole journey, has Iroh never told his nephew that the way he was treated by his father, was wrong? Honestly I wouldn’t bash Iroh sm if he set Zuko against both of them yet here we are. Like really, Iroh? You think if Zuko puts her in her place and murders her, he's not going to lose it and be relieved or vice versa? You think making kids nemeses is going to lead to any good? Wisest character", my ass.

Warning, this is gonna be LOOOOONG and I'm gonna answer to your questions along with this ask I got from @profoundkryptoniteblaze after I pointed out another flaw of Iroh's because there are some points you both brought up that can be combined.

***

"If there was ever any moment in which Iroh could be seen as endangering Zuko, it was that one - hell, Iroh realizing he almost got his "son" killed was probably why he was following him during "The Chase" and tried to reason with him in "Lake Laogai."

Y'know it really gets me thinking if Iroh never learned anything from indoctrinating and sending his own son to death and only realizing the wrong of his actions after having lost him. Iroh let his other son chase after false hope and waste his life, exhausting himself physically and mentally for three years and was never shown trying to pry him away from Ozai or the FN's toxic mentality. Later he helped Zuko chase and almost capture the avatar at the north pole, the latter would've been frozen to death as a result had it not been for Aang's sympathy (honestly not just Iroh and Zuko but the whole world is lucky that he's so patient and compassionate) And then Iroh calls Zuko out for his recklessness in "Lake Laogai". Like what, weren't you the one who-- ah nevermind. I've only scratched the surface about how Iroh failed to guide Zuko and yet neither he, nor Zuko, nor the fandom seem to realize it.

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To really understand the issues with Iroh, we need to look at the context behind his actions BOTH in universe and in the sense of "He is a fictional character and can be whatever the fuck the writers say he is."

Iroh as a result of issues with the writting

When Bryan and Michael were still toying with ideas to figure out what story they wanted to tell, Iroh was NOT the character we saw in the show. He was originally meant to be a twist villain who was intentionally giving Zuko terrible advice, to make sure he would never capture the Avatar and be able to come home.

That idea was scrapped and replaced with Iroh being a grey character. He was likeable, nice, and even kind, but he was on the wrong side of this conflict. He could be wise, but he could also give Zuko bad advice, the difference being that he didn't mean any harm and genuinely wanted the best for his nephew. He is far from perfect, but there is more than enough evidence that he can redeem himself.

Then, the writers thought of ANOTHER Iroh. One that had already gone through his redemption and is as perfect as a human being can be. This was the Iroh they decided they wanted.

The problem is that they only realized that was what they wanted in book 2, once they had decided that Azula would be both Aang and Zuko's antagonist, meaning the audience had already seen the morally grey Iroh, and thus they couldn't just go back and rewrite the story with that new version of Iroh in mind.

So, they had three options:

1 - Throw their new idea in the garbage can and stick with the one they had already spent over a season developing.

2 - Give Iroh a deep, complicated, time consuming character arc to lead him from point A to point B. This woudly likely force them to have more than jus the three seasons they were planning, and was a bit of a high risk, high reward situation, since it'd be hard to make a grey character naturally become basically perfect, but it could pay off if they did it right.

3 - Retcon the past season, acting like Iroh was ALREADY perfect and thus didn't need that major character development, pretending he had always been working behind the scenes with the White Lotus to end the war and never acknowledging that he spent all of book 1 trying to help Zuko capture Aang.

Bryke chose option three, and when we combine that with the fact, to this day, they don't seem to realize that Azula is an abuse victim and child soldier, makes Iroh's flaws and antagonism towards her a bug instead of a feature, since he is now meant to be perfect instead of a deliberately flawed character, whose opinions should NOT be taken as absolute truth.

Iroh in universe

When it comes to the Fire Nation royals, we need to remember that, on top dealing with the cicle of abuse, they're also fighting two wars - one against the nations they're invading, and other amongst themselves, to see who will be Fire Lord - that made their already fucked up family even worse.

Ozai tried to steal his brother's throne, and to assure her son wouldn't die, Ursa had to help him commit treason by killing the Fire Lord and usurping the throne of the rightful heir (Iroh). And Zuko, even though he loved Iroh, didn't recognize the fact that his father had no right to throne until the series finale. He went so far as once referring to himself as rightful heir to the throne due to being OZAI and Ursa's son - and that was while he was banished and being hunted down by Azula, who is either the Fire Lord's heir or the usurper's heir depending on whose side you're on.

But why would anyone side with Ozai? Simple: the Fire Nation has a noticeable pattern of thinking ANYTHING is fair in the fight for power, which makes sense considering they're imperialists that think the whole world belongs to them just because they said so.

THAT is how Iroh was raised to see things. Sozin, his gradnfather and Fire Lord, decided that he could murder his best friend, kill 1/4 of the world's population, and take over territory that belong to the other nations just because that was what he wanted to do. Azulon followed in his footsteps, and had no problem sending his own son into the battlefield - something Iroh also did, and then paid the price.

Lu Ten's death shook him to his very core - but it did NOT make him change sides. Neither did Ozai stealing his throne, nor him disfiguring and banishing Zuko. He was so passive by that point that Ozai just allowed him to stay in the Fire Nation, and even be a part of war meetings.

In said meetings, no woman was ever present, because the only three female warriors we see are Azula, Mai and Ty Lee (a princess/prodigy and two noble girls who are best friends with said princess). The only other women in see in anything close to a position as part "Fire Nation army" was the female guard that Iroh befriend AND the guard at the boiling rock. We also know that Azula would have been the first female Fire Lord ever, which all but states that, even if Ozai had been the heir and Azula had been his eldest child, the throne would have still been Zuko's, because women don't get to be rulers in the Fire Nation. It is very likely that being married to a ruler and having his heirs is the highest position a woman could have in their society. Royal and important, sure, but always in a supporting role.

This, obviously, affected Iroh too. While he doesn't really seem to think anything of women being warriors (which makes sense considering he spent life attacking other nations, and thus probably fought women sometimes - we saw women fighting in the Southern Water tribe and let's not forget the Kyoshi Warriors), we cannnot forget he did things like take advantage of the fact that June was paralized to show that he CAN be a bit of a dirty old man, and that his idea of a perfect gift for AZULA of all people was a doll.

However, that doll also reveals something important: Iroh DID once view Azula as a child, and as someone he had some sort of obligation to - hence him being "fair" and getting her a gift too since he had gotten one for her brother.

But the main problem when it comes to Iroh and Azula's relationship (or lack there of) is also clearly already there: Iroh has no idea who his niece is as a person, and assumes he can figure that out by just using some concept of what she "should" be like, based on her position in their society.

At that point, she is just a little girl. Little girls like things like pretty clothes, playing with dolls, and talking with their friends. Not something he can relate to, but not something that gives him a reason to hate her. She is also a princess, and thus important, worthy of praise and respect, and to be protected by all - just not as much as she would be is she were a prince.

But as we know, Ozai sees things differently - but that doesn't exactly means he sees Azula for who she is either. She is the second child, like himself, meaning she is not meant to inherit anything, only support her older brother. She is also a prodigy and incredibly smart, which could make one wonder if maybe she wouldn't be a better Fire Lord than the actual heir. Ozai was projecting onto her from the moment she was born, hence him naming her after the Fire Lord - after his abusive father that never gave a damn about him.

And that leads to another thing that makes Iroh not as perfect as the fandom sees him: Ozai's dynamic with his own children mirrors how Azulon raised him and his brother. One was the good for nothing child, the scapegoat, the disgrace of the family. The other was the golden child, the one who was absolutely perfect - because they HAD to be. Let's not forget that Azulon's idea of defending the rights of his favorite son involved making him grief both for his son AND his nephew. He also didn't give a shit about the fact that Ursa, Azula and especially Zuko, the one whose death he was ordering, had nothing to do with this shit. Azulon believed EVERYONE had to pay because ONE person fucked up.

This suggest that, even being the favorite, Iroh likely got screwed over by his father many times, and his continued support of him until his death AND the fact that he NEVER said a single negative word about him suggests Iroh is looking at Ozai's treatment of Zuko and Azula, seeing their own dynamic with Azulon in it, and thinking there's nothing wrong with it. I've said it many times, but he is the classic case of "That's not abuse! My parents did that to me and I turned out fine!" when they're not, in fact, fine.

Either way, due to still being too broken after losing his son, he isn't interested in this proxy-rivalry with his brother. But he did develop a genuine bond with Zuko - the first-born. the "heir", the son his brother looks down on. Which means he is sort of having a "passive" role in this weird dynamic, while Ozai is holding all the cards, and likely believes that Iroh is only "choosing Zuko's side" because he is also a "useless" son who just happened to have the luck of being born first.

For many years, Iroh isn't acting, he is reacting. Ozai wants the throne? Fine, let him have it, it's not like Iroh is in any condition to actually deal with that kind of stress anyways.

Ozai is playing favorites? Not great, but hey, isn't that what ALL fathers/Fire Lords do anyway? Either way is not like he has the authority to tell his brother how to raise his kids. It's too late for him to fight for the throne now.

Zuko needs someone to help him on his doomed mission to capture the Avatar? Fine, Iroh will go with him. He likes the kid.

The Avatar IS alive after all and Zuko is actively hunting him down? Well, those were the Fire Lord's orders, guess they must capture him.

Zuko wants to go capture the Avatar alone, in enemy territory, at the risk of freezing to death if he doesn't find some decent shelter? Well, it is his mission, he calls the shots.

Zuko is upset that his father doesn't love him? Why not tell him that Ozai DOES love him, and that's why he banished him? There's no way this could backfi- WHY WON'T ZUKO LISTEN TO HIM? WHY IS HE BELIEVING AZULA'S OBVIOUS LIE THAT OZAI WANTS HIM HOME?

But then we have the chain of events that make Iroh snap out of it: Zhao tries to kill Zuko, then kills the moon, and, finally, Ozai sends Azula to capture them.

Nearly losing someone he loved again, having his nation do something ungodly dangerous and stupid just to win more power, and then being actively hunted down forces Iroh to wake up and be the Dragon Of The West again.

But he did not heal. He did not change his mentality. He never understood just how horrible of a situation he was put in by his father - and that he is essentially giving into Ozai's game, in which they use Zuko and Azula as a way to hurt each other.

And we have the final piece of this puzzle: Azula is now, officially, his and Zuko's enemy. She is Ozai's heir, is trying to capture them, and her goals are to help the Fire Nation win the war - something Iroh can no longer accept.

He changed sides, but in his mind it is still "Us VS Them", and Azula now happens to be on the side of "Them." She is a soldier of the enemy, and can rival Iroh's chosen heir.

She is in the way, and in a war, people like Iroh are expected to either capture or kill "obstacles" like her. So, he does that, and expects Zuko to do the same, for his own good, because this is war, and if they don't win, they'll be at Ozai's mercy - and we know he doesn't have much of it to offer.

She is also someone who is going against what is "right." She is rebelling against her uncle and true Fire Lord, as well as her older brother and future ruler. They are above her in the Fire Nation's laws and social hierarchy in every way (status, age, gender, etc), and yet she is supporting a traitor who stole the Fire Lord's throne. She needs to be reminded of her place, and she can either accept that or deal with the consequences.

It never occurs to Iroh that it doesn't have to be this way, because this is all he has ever known.

#asks #iroh meta #iroh critical #long post #azula deserved better #zuko deserved better #iroh deserved better #bryke critical

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prodogg · 1 year

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Finally some good atla YouTube essay, Sage's Rain is the only one with good atla essays I’ve watched so far:

youtube

#iroh #iroh meta #good fucking video #pd talks #Youtube

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justanotherthrowaway1950 · 2 years

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Why Iroh is not a Good Judge of Azula's Redeemability

One of the fiercest debates in Avatar fandom is whether or not to take Iroh’s words and actions towards Azula as proof of Azula irredeemability.

For those who think that Azula is irredeemable point to stuff like, “She’s crazy and needs to go down,” or the fact that there was never any indication that he ever tried to reason with her, even when he tried reasoning with war criminals (the Rough Rhinos), someone who was literally going destroy a fundamental aspect of reality (Zhao), and someone who was attempting to rob him at knifepoint (Tycho), as proof that he knew that Azula was fundamentally broken, or that, after he returned from his wandering to the palace, he realized that Azula was too firmly indoctrinated for him, or anyone other than Azula herself, to save.

Meanwhile, those who think that Azula is redeemable point out that Iroh said, She’s crazy and needs to go down,” only after she had repeatedly tried to hunt him and Zuko down so she could bring them back to the Fire Nation for their treason, had attempted to kill Zuko with lightning, and had almost killed him with blue fire. Not to mention, Iroh had to dissuade Zuko from trying to show Azula compassion because, as long as she and Ozai where in power, there was no way they could convince her to change her path, and so to show her compassion, or attempt to reason with her, would end with him, Zuko, or the both of them dead or in chains.

And in regards to the comics, where he never visits her in the asylum to try and steer her down a better path now that she lost everything, including her power, and thus would be receptive to his teachings? Well, if Iroh was willing to retire to Ba Sing Se and leave the arduous task of reforming the Fire Nation after a hundred years of war and propaganda to his unprepared nephew, who he sees as a surrogate son, why would Iroh be inclined to try and help steer Azula down a better path?

Especially when, as far as he knows, Azula is getting top-notch medical treatment for her mental illness(es)?

Not to mention, when Zuko was facing push back to take Azula on the search for Ursa, Iroh voiced his support for taking her, pointing out that it might help Azula find inner peace.

And besides, regardless of the above points, those who think Azula is redeemable point out that it would be highly hypocritical for Iroh deny the possibility of Azula reforming when it took Iroh suffering one of the harsh losses imaginable, the lost of a child, in combination with the White Lotus, who are made up of people victimized by Iroh’s actions, or inaction, as Crown Prince and as a general of the Fire Nation, for him to reform and redeem himself well into middle age.

Well, in my opinion, this debate is a moot one because the foundational assumption for both sides, that Iroh actually cared for Azula, at least at some point, is not actually true.

For the Legacy of the Fire Nation, which in-universe is a scrapbook Iroh wrote to share memories and mementos with Zuko, reveals that Iroh never gave up on Azula because he never gave her a chance in the first place, first, due to seeing her as an obstacle to Zuko getting Ozai's favor, and then, after his own redemption arc, an obstacle to Zuko becoming the savior of the Fire Nation that Iroh knew he could become.

In fact, he shows more sympathy and regret in regards to Ozai despite Ozai having decades to change his path as well as being Zuko, Ursa, and Azula's primary abuser.

And Iroh continues to have such negative views about Azula despite the fact that he begrudgingly admits that it took him decades to change his ways, that he only changed after his own son died despite killing countless Fire Nation and Earth Kingdom sons through his warmongering, and that he engaged in imperialism for the same reasons that Azula did: to make his father proud and because he thought it was his destiny.

And to make things worse, the TTRPG, which was created in collaboration with Avatar Studios, reveals that Iroh learned lightning redirection before Lu Ten’s death. So even if Azula was under Ozai's thrall, he could have stopped her abuse, as well as Zuko's in addition to ending the war sooner, by challenging Ozai to Agni Kai after returning from his wandering and killing him by baiting Ozai into shooting lightning and then redirecting it.

“But what about Iroh voicing support for Azula to go on the search for Ursa? That at least proves that Iroh has some care for Azula, right?”

Iroh’s support for Azula going on the search for Ursa could easily be explained by Iroh not wanting to go against the wishes of his beloved nephew, especially since he knows that Azula is the only one with relevant information in regards to Ursa’s location due to Azula burning all the letters in Ozai’s secret trunk save for the “Zuko is a bastard” letter, as well as him knowing that him vocalizing his true thoughts on Azula would make him look unwise and/or cause friction to arise between him and Zuko.

And besides, it is not like Iroh has ever lied to Zuko or others about his true opinions and allegiances before, especially when he, rightfully or wrongfully, thinks it is in everyone’s best interests for him to hide them, right?

“Why do you think that Iroh had a responsibility to challenge Ozai to an Agni Kai and kill him? For don’t you remember that Iroh said, in regards to Zuko asking him to fight Ozai during Sozin’s Comet, that he would not fight Ozai for the throne since history would just see it as two brothers trying to kill each other for power, and so it had to be the Avatar who defeated Ozai?"

My response to that argument is the famous phrase, “The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing.”

If Iroh already had his heel-face turn and realized that the war was immoral, wouldn’t the morally righteous thing for him to do is end the war as soon as possible? Especially since he was the person best equipped to stop it considering, unlike the audience, no one in-universe knows when, if ever, the Avatar would return?

Besides, why should we care for Iroh’s opinion in regards to the ramifications of him fighting Ozai for the throne when he, after telling Zuko that he could not fight his own brother to death since history would view it negatively, in the same breath told Zuko to essentially fight his own sister to death for the throne?

So to conclude, why should people care about Iroh's opinion about Azula's (ir)redeemability? Especially when, if people applied his standards to him and Zuko, neither of them would have been able to redeem themselves?

#azula #iroh #zuko #ozai #atla #atla comics #the search #legacy of the fire nation #avatar legends rpg #iroh meta #iroh critical #iroh is not a flawless saint #justanotherthrowaway1950meta

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witchzoe · 2 years

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Iroh is known in the Earth Kingdom as The Dragon of the West. Dragon is a title you get for slaying a dragon, with Zuko stating that Iroh killed the last dragon long before he was born (meaning this happened before Iroh's redemption arc.)

In the same episode we also learn that, instead of killing the last dragons, Iroh learned the true meaning of Firebending.

So if i interprete this correctly, Iroh learned that fire was life and then used that knowledge to wage war against the Earth Kingdom, culminating with the siege of Ba Sing Se?

Because if he did that, that is honestly very fucked up.

#atla #iroh #iroh critical #iroh meta #sun warriors #ran and shaw

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phoenix-king-ozai · 2 months

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The avatar fandom when Iroh has committed war crimes and likely was just like Ozai but less outwardly unpleasant until Lu Ten got bodied: I don't see it.

Bro if there was an Iroh prequel it'd be ugly as hell.

Crown Fire Prince Iroh systemically starved Ba Sing Se for nearly two years straight non-stop while slaughtering Earth Kingdom soldiers trying to defend and protect their wives, children, family and fellow citizens from the ruthless, brutal and cruel invading Fire Nation army to protect and defend Ba Sing Se.

I’m pretty sure Iroh during his prime years such as during his thirties and before Lu Ten was born was pretty ruthless and savagely competent as Grand General in the Fire Nation’s Army. My headcanon is that Iroh and Ozai have a fifteen year age gap difference. Meaning that in canon at the end of ATLA, Ozai is forty-five then Iroh has to be sixty. When Iroh was thirty during his prime years, Ozai was a fifteen-year-old teenager.

I think both Iroh and Ozai were viciously ruthless commanders and fighters on the battlefield during Fire Lord Azulon’s reign. However, Ozai probably was far more crueler, aggressive, and merciless than his older brother and more like their father Fire Lord Azulon instead. This ruthlessness, brutality, and aggression is what fire nation imperialism and aggressive firebending is based on and what Ozai wants Zuko to inherit and embody as his son and Crown Prince.

This is because in my headcanon Fire Lady Ilah has a much more kinder, gentler, compassionate, and sympathetic personality than her husband Fire Lord Azulon toward other nations suffering in the Hundred Year War due to her having more of a spiritual connection and having her life saved and spared by a Earth Kingdom Princess. This challenged her Fire Supremacist views of people from the Earth Kingdom and other nations made her contextualize their pain and suffering from nearly a century of nonstop war and violence.

Despite both Ilah and Iroh still being staunch imperialists. Ilah made sure to teach Iroh the values of compassion, mercy, and kindness. These values weren't taught and passed down to Azulon and Ozai in comparison. Nor have Azulon or Ozai ever had their Fire Supremacist views challenge and are heavily impacted by decades of propaganda and hatred created by Fire Lord Sozin.

Another headcanon theory of mine is that Fire Lady Ilah died in childbirth while giving birth to Fire Prince Ozai. Iroh was a fifteen-year-old teenager at the time as well. Fire Lord Azulon probably wanted a second child in case of Crown Fire Prince Iroh's possible death on the battlefield along with the return of Sozin’s comet nearly fifty years in the future. However, Ilah probably was in her forties and childbirth was more risky. My dark headcanon is that Baby Ozai burned his mother Ilah from the inside out and the Fire Sages had to perform a lethal C-section on the dying Fire Lady. Fire Lord Azulon loathes his second-born son for being the cause of his beloved wife’s death but this is a coping mechanism due to the fact that Azulon pushed and forced Ilah to have another child.

This is the main reason Ozai is more ruthless, brutal, and vicious than his older brother Iroh. Iroh had and took after Ilah's influence and parenting style whereas Ozai had and took after Azulon’s influence and parenting style. Iroh probably is brainwashed and naivete to believe that the Fire Nation truly cares about the prosperity of the other elemental nations whereas as Ozai is extremely realistic and pessimistic regarding the so-called “benevolent” plans for the other nations.

A good comparison between Iroh and Ozai would be Bjorn and Ivar from the Vikings series. Along with the immorality standards of the German Wehrmacht soldiers and SS-loyal nazi soldiers that are completely brainwashed by the ideology of nazism and imperialism.

#atla #sozin #ilah #azulon #iroh #ozai #avatar the last airbender #avatar #atla meta #fire nation royal family #fire family #fire fam #fire nation royal family meta #ozai meta #iroh meta

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innocentimouto · 2 years

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The thing about Iroh not stopping Zuko from getting burned or possibly from any other abuse is that it’s very consistent with how, in our world, adults used to be opposed to how children were abused treated harshly but did the minimum to help them.

They may say it’s wrong (never to the child though) or attempt to offer help, but the minute the parent (in many cases parents or guardians) opposed, they would back down. And they looked sad and sometimes would get angry about it, but they’d never really make the effort to do anything else and at times would actively encourage the child to forgive or be around the parent/guardian.

It’s almost like a token action so they wouldn’t feel guilty. Or maybe they felt they were generous people by simply feeling bad for the child when no one else even cared.

He may also have felt this way for Azula, but maybe not. I think being opposed to abuse is considered a great level of kindness in the Fire Nation (maybe in atla as a whole), so maybe Iroh didn’t feel the need to consider Azula abused.

This would also explain why Iroh would never tell Zuko directly that his father treated him horribly.

#Iroh #Iroh meta

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dragomer · 6 months

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Why is Iroh such a confusing, inconsistent, messy character

Eh, I wouldn't say he is particularly confusing or messy, he has some inconsistencies (basically the entier 'White Lotus' nonsense) and like one very minor possible retcon (his boast about how he got his title of dragon of the west by breathing fire but it could have just been a cool one liner instead of something he meant literally) but that's not worse than say Katara's inconsistencies or Mai's inconsistencies.

It's pretty rare to have a show with that many episodes with no inconsistencies after all.

Thanks for the ask ^^

#atla #avatar the last airbender #iroh #iroh meta #thanks for the ask ^^

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firenaition · 5 months

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god i love fallible characters, but specifically zuko in the catacombs. choosing his sister over his uncle just to get to sleep in his childhood bed again. earning katara's kindness and empathy and stripping it all away in minutes because he ached for the familiar. fighting on the wrong side of history just to see his father smile with pride. knowing he could have done the right thing, but what is being good when you could be terrible but loved.

#zuko #avatar: the last airbender #avatar the last airbender #atla #atla meta #prince zuko #ozai #azula #iroh

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outpastthemoat · 2 years

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one of my personal favorite dichotomies in atla is how iroh, once the top strategist and highest-ranking general of the fire nation, now directs all his energy and considerable tactical experience towards attempting to keep his teenage nephew from throwing himself into life-threatening situations AND IROH REGULARLY FAILS TO PREVENT HIM FROM DOING SO.

he lead a six-hundred day siege and now iroh can't keep up with a sixteen-year-old armed with two swords and a passionate deathwish. zuko's motto is "act first, think never" and he's running rings around his uncle. it's like!!! who's gonna come out on top, iroh's west point education vs. zuko's deep and abiding commitment to always choosing the stupidest possible course of action, and zuko manages to win every single time

#iroh #zuko #atla #it will NEVER stop being hilarious to me #my meta

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zuko-always-lies · 1 year

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One of things I think people miss about Iroh is how passive he is. He the sort of person who just generally goes with the flow and follows the easiest option. It’s rare for him to take that active of a role.

#Iroh #Iroh meta

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kilucore · 2 months

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So I've started rewatching ATLA to cleanse my palette, and I only now noticed this foreshadowing from the very first episode, the second scene with Zuko in the entire series.

The show introduces the idea that Zuko's firebending isn't sustainable and is fueled by rage right at the beginning, which of course comes back in The Firebending Masters, where he can't firebend anymore because he doesn't have that rage. Basically that Zuko is cutting corners in his firebending through brute force and anger (a la "you will teach me the advanced set!"), and Iroh knows, or hopes, there will come a time that Zuko can't firebend like this.

Just, so cool that I can always notice new things and nuances in this show no matter how many times I watch it.

#atla #atla meta #zuko #iroh #avatar the last airbender

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hello-nichya-here · 2 years

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Does Azula have a superiority complex?

I'd say that Azula, Zuko, and Iroh could all relate, in different ways, to a particular line in Buffy The Vampire Slayer: You do have a superiority complex, but you have an inferiority complex about that.

They were taught that they're better than everybody else, that they have the right to do whatever they want and that the world should obey them, so they naturally find themselves seaking power at different points of the story...

But it doesn't bring them happiness. And they can't understand why, and even though the ending of the show tries to frame it as "Iroh and Zuko found a way out of this never-ending cicle of misery, but Azula did not" when you really look at it, the two of them are still just as lost as she is.

So yeah, she does have a bit of a superiority complex, but it goes hand in hand with a bunch of self-loathing, self-doubt, anxiety, and a ton of pain and loneliness.

#asks #fire nation royal family #fire nation fuckery #azula meta #zuko meta #iroh meta

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prodogg · 2 years

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Iroh’s and Azula’s post war reconciliation.

(I newly got Photoshop and I was bored lol) First of all I have to say why I write this post, I write it because after reading some fics with a Azula and Iroh reconciliation I was deeply dissatisfied. Why was I dissatisfied ? I can tell you that, its because everything was made Azula’s fault and it was claimed that Iroh always believed she was good and she just needed to be beaten to appreciate him, and that is just false IMO. Iroh was never shown to speak positively about Azula or that he extended kindness to her, wait before you comment with “what about the doll” Iroh gifted the doll to Azula when she was 8 and it looked more to be as an offhand polite gesture to an relative he doesn’t know.

Also, Im not going to say how their relationship was during the war, there are enough blogs with excellent metas on this topic, but I want to say one thing, Iroh doesn’t know Azula, he saw her when she was 6 before the siege, then with 11 and after that with 14 and boy the reunion wasn’t good at all.

Anyways, I really can understand the appeal that Azula working at Iroh’s teashop has, also Iroh and Azula playing Pai Sho is also a cool idea and them talking about topics like the military, but if the foundation isn’t right you cant build on it. Let’s start with Iroh, what would need to happen to let them have the beginning of a good bond and have Iroh being involved in Azula’s healing. Iroh would firstly need to admit some stuff for himself, there is that Azula is a victim too, that she is a 14 year old child, that he misjudged her and that she isn’t just some obstacle that needs to be overcome.

Then he would need to make the first step towards Azula because he is the adult in this situation and he would need to make sure to Azula that he doesn’t just care now because she was beaten and “put in her place” no, he would need to probably tell her that he was wrong about her, that he made a mistake in writing her off and no saying Azula couldn’t be helped at that time is not valid, this is more from the viewer view but not Iroh’s reasoning for not reaching out. Hopefully I haven’t forgotten anything I wanted to mention.

Now too Azula, Azula would need to recognize that Iroh’s attempts at helping and atonement are sincere and are coming from compassion rather then ulterior motives and an attempt to make he a docile shell of herself. Azula would also need to recognize that maybe most of the stuff her dad told her about her uncle aren’t true or really what they seem to be on the surface. Then she would need to start to open up, what I mean is that she shouldn’t shut him down directly. They both probably would need to have a deep talk in which Azula vents off her feelings, e.g the favoritism her uncle expressed towards Zuko. You see I can only see them reconciling or dare I say become even a family if Iroh does the heavy lifting in this one. Otherwise I couldn’t see them ever reconcile, maybe become apathetic or indifferent but not close or on a regularly talking base. I also present a suggestion by the wonderful @juniperhillpatient had:

“I think post war It could start with them both wanting what’s best for the fire nation. Perhaps Azula and Zuko reconcile first. they both (Iroh and Azula) want to help Zuko improve the FN. They also both care about Zuko. That could be a start but for them to ever be close on a familial and emotional level? I think Iroh would need to acknowledge that he could’ve done more for Azula in her childhood. This is also again under the assumption we’re talking about a more mature and healed / redeemed Azula who recognizes the flaws in her upbringing. Perhaps under those circumstances they could improve their relationship.”I could see this happening some years later after the wars end. My post addresses more immediately or short time after the war has ended their possible reconciliation or rather how it could come to one. Azula and Iroh are actually rather similar IMO and I could see them connect over that. Anyway I needed to make this post and get this off my chest, because I read to many reconcile arc’s about Iroh and Azula and it always was all Azula’s fault. Anyways I would like to hear your feedback 😊. Also I would be interested in recommendations for good reconciliation fic’s between them, I personally only read one good one.

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justanotherthrowaway1950 · 2 years

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Iroh Should Have Taken the Throne After the War, Not Zuko

On the surface, Zuko becoming Fire Lord seems like the cherry on top for his happy ending.

For him and Mai, who thankfully survived committing treason on Zuko’s behalf, are now able to rebuild their relationship on healthier grounds now that they are no longer under the yoke of Ozai’s regime, he has gained true friends in the form of the Gaang, he finally realized that Iroh was his true father all along and managed to rebuild his relationship with him, his abusive father and toxic at best sister are locked up and unable to hurt him or the ones he loves ever again, he atoned for the most part for helping Azula take over Ba Sing Se, and is now posed to help his nation redeem themselves like he did in regards to himself.

However, if you dig deeper, you start to realize that Zuko’s happy ending is not so happy after all. For he has no blood family that doesn’t hate him and isn’t rightfully locked up except for Iroh, who decided to spend his retirement in Ba Sing Se as a tea maker thousands of miles away from Zuko, and thus is hard to reach in a timely fashion.

The Gaang may be his friends, but they also have their own lives, responsibilities, and families, and so they won’t be able to stay in the Fire Nation for long outside of diplomatic meetings.

Not to mention the fact that they can never again be just friends like the couple of weeks they spent together fighting to end the war, for Zuko is no longer just their friend, but also Fire Lord of the reforming Fire Nation as well.

And with Ty Lee, until the Kyoshi Warriors become his bodyguards, moving to Kyoshi Island so she can be a Kyoshi Warrior, the only person who he trusts who is constantly in his life is Mai, who loves him dearly, but is ill-equipped to help Zuko deal with his emotional struggles as he continues to heal from his upbringing, let alone the political struggles Zuko will encounter as he attempts to de-Sozinfiy the Fire Nation.

Especially since Mai is a 15 year old teenager who also needs to continue healing from her upbringing and has no relevant experience when it comes to governing.

LIke if we are being honest, Zuko never really had a chance to figure out what truly made him happy.

For instead of getting time and space to figure out what he wants to be now that the war is over and he is free from Ozai, Zuko instead has to be Fire Lord at least until his heir is of age since Iroh said that it was Zuko who had to the take throne, with Zuko obliging due to wanting to please his real father his sense of honor and responsibility.

All this even though he was only crown prince for two years and the couple of weeks he was in the Fire Nation after his banishment was lifted, which does not bode well for someone trying to reform a nation that has waged an immoral war of conquest for over a hundred years and is so heavily steeped in propaganda to the point that the average person considers airbending demonic.

Hence, why I think the show should have ended with Iroh taking the throne with Zuko as his heir instead of what ended up transpiring.

That way, not only can Zuko continue his crown prince education, an education that was almost certainly interrupted by his banishment, but also so that Zuko has the space to heal and grow without the burden of guiding and reforming the post-war Fire Nation weighing him down.

Especially since guiding the Fire Nation through the early steps of de-Sozinization would be a struggle for even an experienced monarch, let alone a 16/17 year old with no real experience in governing.

This is because Zuko has no experience, as far as we know, dealing with court politics or running the administrative state of an industrial superpower.

Zuko has no real connection with his people despite his banishment forcing him to interact with and empathize with Earth Kingdom commoners. Thus, it is hard to see how Zuko can craft policies to help de-Sozinize them, let alone gain their support for such policies outside of the implicit threat of the Avatar.

Whereas Iroh, despite also being a traitor, was once a beloved war general, and so he can use his status, even if it is heavily diminished by his actions during the end of the war, to get people to buy into his de-Sozinzation policies.

Though I admit that Iroh, like Zuko, has no real connection with Fire Nation commoners.

And Zuko would likely struggle to determine what type of relationship, if any, he would like to have with Ozai and/or Azula after everything that has transpired. And if he chooses to try to interact with them, he is likely to get manipulated like he did in the comics.

But if he doesn't have the throne, at least the consequences of such manipulation would only be limited to his personal life, and not have dire consequences like what happened with Yu Dao or the lingering threat that an escaped Azula presents in canon to the post-war order.

Not to mention, I think Zuko not getting the throne because he isn't ready for it would send a good message of how just because Zuko redeemed himself doesn't mean that he is now perfect, and thus doesn't need to further heal and grow, as well as avoid giving Zuko the thing he wanted at the start of the show.

For Zuko in the start of the show wanted the throne for validation, and while after betraying Ozai he never expected it until he met with Iroh in the White Lotus encampment, he ultimately ends up getting what he wanted all along. But if he didn't get the throne, at least for the time being, I think it would better show that Zuko has moved past the throne being (external) validation, as well as strengthen his claim that he didn't betray Ozai for the throne, at least in-universe.

This is because even though we the audience know that the Zuko betrayed Ozai's regime due to being horrified by Ozai's plan to genocide the Earth Kingdom, the general population doesn't.

And so it is likely to appear to them, or at least a significant proportion of the Fire Nation population, that Zuko betrayed his father, sister, and nation in order to get the throne he knew he would never get due to not being his father's favorite, even if it meant becoming the Avatar's puppet.

Also, while it is true that the other members of the Gaang all play active roles in the post-war order despite being pre-teens or teenagers themselves, none of them are formerly engaged in politics or ruling outside of Aang, who is the Avatar, and thus sadly can’t delegate his responsibilities to an adult until he is emotionally and mentally ready, a burden that the show and comics took great pains to highlight as tragic.

And while it is true that there have been world leaders who have had successful reigns despite taking power as a pre-teen or teenager, the closest to those rulers in ATLA is Azula, who showcases, among other things, what tends to happen more often than not when you put too much pressure on children to rule, and is a prima facie case for why Iroh, and not Zuko, should have taken the throne at the end of the war.

“Ok, ok, you have some good points, but don’t you remember how Iroh all but said during Sozin’s Comet that he could not take the throne, or even confront Ozai in the case that Aang was missing, since no one trusts him in a position of power except for the White Lotus and the Gaang? So even if Iroh is the most qualified man for the throne, he was right to not take it since the sight of the Dragon of the West on the throne is liable to cause people in the Water Tribes and Earth Kingdom to start another war, or at least launch terrorist attacks, to get him off it.”

Iroh’s point about how no one outside of the White Lotus and the Gaang trusts him in a position of power after decades of war mongering makes sense on the surface, but when you dig deeper, it makes no sense at all.

For Iroh, despite refusing the mantle of Fire Lord, is still in a position of great power: Grand Lotus of the White Lotus, a secret, world-spanning, information gathering organization that is made up of some of the most powerful leaders and benders in the world.

An organization that not only mobilized within a few short weeks to reconquer Ba Sing Se during Sozin’s Comet, but also became Avatar’s version of UN Peacekeepers under Iroh’s leadership.

(Legacy of the Fire Nation all but says the White Lotus starts taking a more active role in the world while Iroh is still an active Grand Lotus. In fact, Xai Bau starts the Red Lotus in response to this change, with Iroh not only being aware of the Red Lotus’ existence, but also not understanding why taking a more active role is a betrayal of the White Lotus’ anarchist roots.)

Like outside the Avatars and other world leaders, Iroh is one of the most powerful people in the world. And yet, despite operating a tea shop in Ba Sing Se under his real name post-war, there is never indication that people attack him for assuming such a position of power, let alone for his past.

Not to mention, Iroh at times becomes interim Fire Lord for weeks on end with actual power (ex. Iroh created National Tea Appreciation Day when he was interim Fire Lord during the search for Ursa), and even at times actively plays a role in international affairs, like when he stood in for Zuko during Yu Dao’s inauguration ceremony. And yet, as far as canon is concerned, there is nary a peep from anyone outside of the Fire Nation.

Therefore, Iroh’s excuse that seeing the Dragon of the West in a position of power to influence world affairs again, let alone on the Fire Lord’s throne, is liable to send the rest of the world into a frenzy doesn’t hold up when scrutinized.

So to conclude, Zuko was not emotionally or mentally ready to assume the Fire Lord mantle by the end of the show since his crown prince education was basically non-existent and he still needs to continue growing as a person. Especially since attempting to reform the Fire Nation after the Hundred Year War is a task that even the most experienced and savvy leaders would find challenging.

However, Iroh does have the relevant training and emotional and mental maturity to help guide the Fire Nation during the early post-war years. And even on the surface the world may not stand for him on the throne, considering they are more than fine with him being a Grand Lotus of the White Lotus, or serving as interim Fire Lord, the world, in my opinion, would be more than fine with Iroh on the throne.

Especially if he makes it clear that he would abdicate once Zuko’s crown prince training is complete and he is emotionally and mentally ready to take the throne.

So the fact that Iroh did not take the throne after the war is quite odd and does not reflect well on someone who is supposed to be wise and loves his surrogate son more than anything in the world.

For if Iroh was truly wise and loved Zuko as much as he, along with the narrative, says he does, why would he abandon his “son” to the metaphorical wolves?

#iroh #zuko #fire nation #water tribes #earth kingdom #atla #atla comics #legacy of the fire nation #iroh meta #zuko meta #fire nation meta #water tribes meta #earth kingdom meta #iroh critical #zuko is not done growing #iroh is not a flawless saint #justanotherthrowaway1950meta

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