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sineala · 3 years

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Tony Stark and Arthuriana

Coming to you by special request, a very long post about 616 Tony's interest in Arthuriana, with a focus on all of Tony's run-ins with Morgan le Fay!

I feel like I should disclaim the extent of my knowledge here, which is that I still haven't managed to read anywhere near every issue of Iron Man -- at least, not yet, anyway -- so I'm just going by the things I know I've read, and Morgan le Fay's Marvel wiki entry is frustratingly under-cited, so it's very possible I've missed something relevant, but I'm pretty sure I've got the big stuff down. My other disclaimer here is that I'm not as big an Arthurian nerd as Tony is, which is to say that most of my familiarity comes from modern retellings -- T. H. White's The Once and Future King, Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon, Mary Stewart's The Crystal Cave, Rosemary Sutcliff's Sword at Sunset -- and not so much the usual classic sources on the Matter of Britain, though I've read bits and pieces of them.

(This is because I wanted to read versions of them that were as close to the original as possible but so far have not ended up finishing any of them because, well, that's hard. So I've never read the Mabinogion because I do not know Welsh. I've got the Norton Critical Edition of Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur, which is probably the best student edition if you're looking for something without modernized spellings, as I was. I've also got -- well, okay, it's my wife's but I'm borrowing it -- a relatively recent Boydell & Brewer edition (ed. Reeve, tr. Wright) of Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniae (History of the Kings of Britain), which is, you guessed it, in Latin with a facing English translation. I haven't gotten very far in it because, in case you didn't know this about Latin texts, the beginning is pretty much always the hardest, so I gave up and read some Plautus adaptations instead. Anyway, if for some reason you too want to read Geoffrey of Monmouth in the original Latin I'd recommend that one, but I can't recommend any particular English translations because I've never read one by itself. I bet you didn't think you'd be getting Latin prose recommendations in this post. I mean, maybe you did; it is me, after all.)

Okay. Right. King Arthur. Here we go.

We've got:

Flashbacks to Tony's childhood in late Iron Man volume 1

A brief discussion of Morgan's origin story and Avengers #187

Iron Man vol 1 #149-150: Doomquest

What If vol 1 #33: What if Iron Man was trapped in the time of King Arthur?

Iron Man vol 1 #249-250: Recurring Knightmare

Iron Man: Legacy of Doom #1-4

Avengers vol 3 #1-4: The Morgan Conquest

Civil War: The Confession

Mighty Avengers vol 1 #9-11: Time Is On No One's Side

In terms of universe-internal chronology, we know from Iron Man #287, from 1992, that Tony has been a fan of King Arthur since childhood. This is an issue of a fandom-favorite arc which features Tony having a lot of childhood flashbacks, including the famous "Stark men are made of iron" line (in #286) that for some reason MCU fandom decided it loved; I mean, seriously, I've seen that quoted in way more MCU fic than 616 fic. But slightly later, in #287, we get an entire page devoted to Tony's love of King Arthur.

The narration reads: "Over the next few years, I learned as my father intended. Discipline of body. Strength of character. But in what free time I was allowed, I worked my way through the school's library. At thirteen, I discovered Mallory [sic], who showed me a whole new world. A world of dedication to a cause greater than oneself. Of chivalry and honor. And the fantastic deeds -- of armored heroes."

The art shows Tony as a child sitting under a tree, reading a book labeled Mort D'Arthur by Mallory [sic] -- no, don't ask me why nobody at Marvel checked how to spell either the name of the book or its author -- and daydreaming of King Arthur, the Sword in the Stone, knights, et cetera. Just in case you somehow missed the extremely blatant hint that we are meant to understand that Tony's knight obsession heavily influenced him becoming Iron Man as an adult, we see one of his armors mixed in with all the drawings of knights. So, yes, canonically Tony is Iron Man at least partly because he's a giant King Arthur nerd, which I think is so very sweet. I love him. He's such a dork!

(This issue is currently in print in the Iron Man Epic Collection War Machine, should you need your own copy.)

This isn't actually the only reference to Tony as a King Arthur fanboy in this era of canon, either; a little later, in IM #298, we see that one of Tony's passwords is actually "Mallory." (Yeah, no, they still couldn't spell. But it's cute.)

But in terms of actual publication order, this is definitely not the first time we have seen in canon that Tony is into Arthuriana, as I'm sure you all know. I would assume, in fact, that giving Tony a childhood interest in Arthuriana is because Doomquest is one of the most beloved Iron Man story arcs of all time, and that all started at least a decade before IM #287 here was published.

The villain of Doomquest -- the one who isn't Doctor Doom, at least -- is Morgan le Fay. Yes, that Morgan le Fay. Yes, Arthur's evil half-sister Morgan le Fay. Yes, all of this King Arthur stuff is canonically real history on Earth-616. Morgan's first appearance in Marvel, per the wiki, was in Black Knight #1 (1955), which I have not read, and judging by the summary I feel like this is probably just supposed to be a straight-up comic retelling of Arthurian legends for kids; I don't think Marvel really had the whole Marvel Universe in mind as a concept in 1955, so I'm not sure this was meant to connect to anything else. I feel like this is another one of those instances of Marvel discovering that they can write comics about characters in the public domain for free -- like, I'm pretty sure that's how we also ended up with, like, Norse, Greek, and Roman mythology wedged into 616.

As far as I can tell from the wiki, the first time Morgan tangled with the Avengers (or indeed the larger 616 universe) in any way actually predated Doomquest -- it was in an early arc in Spider-Woman (#2-6) and then Avengers #187, which came out in 1979, actually right when Demon in a Bottle was happening over in Iron Man comics. If you read #187, Iron Man is not in it because he's off the team due to his drinking problem and also his accidentally murdering the Carnelian ambassador problem. So Wonder Man's filling in instead. This issue is part of Michelinie's rather sporadic Avengers run, which makes sense, I guess, considering where we see Morgan next.

Anyway, Avengers #187 is the classic issue where Wanda is possessed by Chthon, but what you may not remember from Chthon's backstory (I sure didn't!) is that he was summoned by Morgan le Fay because she was the first person who tried to wield the Darkhold to summon him. As you can imagine, this did not work out especially well for her and her followers and they had to seal Chthon away in Wundagore Mountain, which was where Wanda found him. (The Spider-Woman stuff is only slightly earlier and also appears to be about Morgan and the Darkhold; the Darkhold is not one of the areas of 616 canon I am especially conversant with, alas. It's on my to-read list.)

Doomquest, as you probably know, was a classic Iron Man two-parter in Layton & Michelinie's first Iron Man run that set up Tony and Doom as rivals; Doomquest itself was IM #149-150, in 1981, and then in their second IM run they came back and did a sequel in 1989, Recurring Knightmare (IM #249-250), and then the much later four-part sequel to that was the 2008 miniseries Iron Man: Legacy of Doom, which was also by Layton & Michelinie but generally does not seem to be as popular as the first two parts. They've all been reprinted, if you're looking for copies; I have a Doomquest hardcover that collects the first four issues and then a separate Legacy of Doom hardcover. Currently in the Iron Man Epic Collection line there's a volume called Doom, which confusingly only collects the 249-250 part of the storyline (as well as surrounding issues), because for some reason the first Layton & Michelinie run isn't in Epics yet but the second one is. So the beginning of Doomquest isn't currently in print, as far as I can tell. I'm sure you can find it anyway.

So what's Doomquest about? Okay, so you remember how Doctor Doom's mother's soul is stuck in hell for all eternity? Well, Doom's obviously interested in getting her back, and the strategy he has embarked on is to try to team up with other powerful magicians who can help him out, and he thinks Morgan le Fay would be a good choice, for, uh, his quest. Doom's quest. A Doomquest, if you will. (If you've ever read Doctor Strange & Doctor Doom: Triumph & Torment, you're familiar with the part where he later ends up waylaying Strange for this and they go to hell together. And if you haven't read Triumph & Torment, you really should, because it's amazing.)

So Doom is off to his time machine to go team up with Morgan le Fay and Tony thinks Doom is up to something -- Doom has been stealing components for his time machine from a lot of people, including Tony -- and he follows him and it turns out one of Doom's lackeys has a grudge and wants to trap Doom in the past forever, and Tony gets caught up in it. Now they're both in Camelot. Surprise! #149 is actually all setup; they don't get to Camelot until #150.

IM #150 begins with Doom and Tony thrown back into the past; there's a fandom-famous splash page of them locked in combat, only to realize that they have found themselves in Camelot.

They are then discovered by knights; Doom would very much like to attack them, but Tony, who naturally would be happy to LARP Camelot forever, persuades him to play nice. Also Doom thinks Iron Man is only Tony's bodyguard so he keeps referring to him as "lackey," much to Tony's annoyance. Somehow everyone thinks they're sorcerers. Can't imagine why. The knights take them to meet King Arthur himself, and Tony has clearly had his introduction all ready to go, as he introduces himself in a timeline-appropriate manner, says he's here to apprehend Doom, and demonstrates his "magic" by levitating Arthur's throne. Doom's response is essentially "I'm the king of Latveria," which is, y'know, also valid. So they're guests at Camelot for the night while Arthur figures out what to do with them.

We then have a page devoted to Tony alone in his room, musing sadly about how alien he feels, how he doesn't know if he'll ever get home, how he could never fit in here without his beloved technology. Then a Sexy Lady shows up to keep him company for the night, and he decides maybe it's not all bad. Thanks, Marvel. I guess they can't all be winners.

Doom is using his evening much more productively; he compels one of the servants to tell him where Morgan's castle is, because he's still interested in having that team-up. Then he jets off. Literally. He has a jetpack.

The next morning Arthur's like "one of you is still here and one of you has punched a hole through the castle wall and flown off to join Morgan so I guess I know which of you is more trustworthy." He then explains to Tony who Morgan is, because Tony professes ignorance, because clearly we had not yet retconned in Tony's love of Arthuriana. Tony offers to go fight Doom and Morgan with Arthur; meanwhile, Morgan and Doom have teamed up and Morgan has offered to help get Doom's mother out of hell if he commands her undead armies against Arthur because for Reasons she can't command them herself anymore. So that's a thing that happens.

So, yes, it's Tony and Arthur versus Doom and Morgan. Fight fight fight!

Tony tries Doom first but then decides to hunt Morgan down, and in the ensuing fight we get what I think is Tony's first ever "I hate magic," a complaint that we all know he still makes even to this day.

Anyway, Tony freezes a dragon with Freon (mmm, technology) and Morgan gets upset and disappears, so the battle comes to an end, and of course Doom is extremely mad at Tony because he blames Tony for Morgan not sticking around to save Doom's mom, because I guess Doom trusted her to keep her word? Weird. (Like I said, for the next chapter of Doom saving his mother, go read Triumph & Torment.)

Doom says if he and Tony work together, the components in both of their armors can send them both home. So Tony has to trust Doom. Which he does, because he really has no other choice. They build a time machine and Tony makes Doom agree to a 24-hour truce when they get back, so they can both get home. So it all works out okay, and they end up in the present, and Doom tells him, ominously, that they will meet again. Okay, then. That concludes the original Doomquest. It's fun! You can see why fandom likes it.

So that's all well and good, but you might have noticed that Tony's ability to get home hinged on Doom actually being trustworthy. And Doom was. But what if Doom hadn't been? What if he'd just stranded Tony in Camelot forever As you may have surmised from the form of that question, that is in fact a question Marvel asked themselves, because, yes, there's a What If about this! What If v1 #33 is "What if Iron Man was trapped in the time of King Arthur?"

The divergence point from canon, as you can probably guess, is the very end of Doomquest. Instead of Doom bringing Tony home, he deceives him and leaves him in Camelot. And since Tony cannibalized a lot of the tech from his armor to make the time machine, he doesn't have a way to go home.

This is not a story where Tony comes up with a way to go home after all. He really doesn't get to go home. But instead of drowning his sorrows in mead -- because, remember, Demon in a Bottle has already happened and Tony is sober now -- he decides he might as well just play the hand he's dealt. So with what's left of his armor, he defeats some enemies that Morgan rounds up to send against Camelot. And for his services, he's knighted. He is now Sir Anthony.

Tony acknowledges that he is both living the dream and would also like very, very much to go home.

He does end up having some fun in Camelot; it's not all miserable. But he obviously doesn't want to be there.

So if you're at all familiar with King Arthur, you know how this goes, right? Arthur fights Mordred and Mordred kills him. And that does happen in this version. Except Tony is right there, and with his dying words, Arthur asks Tony to rule Camelot... and Tony agrees.

So, yes, Tony Stark becomes king of the Britons after Arthur's death and he never goes home again. The end. Man, I love What Ifs.

Heading back to main 616 continuity, there is still more of this arc to go. The original Doomquest was only two issues, yes, but it was popular enough that Layton & Michelinie did a sequel a hundred issues later, in their second run of Iron Man, and that's Iron Man #249-250, Recurring Knightmare. (In the intervening issues were Denny O'Neil's IM run, specifically the second drinking arc (#160-200), and then Layton & Michelinie came back and most famously gave us Armor Wars (#225-232). I would have to say that Armor Wars is definitely the standout fandom-favorite arc of their second IM run; for their first one, I think a lot of people would have a hard time choosing between Doomquest and Demon.) But anyway, yes. Recurring Knightmare.

Recurring Knightmare is... well, the best way I can describe it is "a trip." It is definitely a sequel to Doomquest, and it is also definitely not a sequel you would ever have expected to see for Doomquest.

Much like #149, #249 is pretty much just setup. Fun setup, but the big action is in the next issue. We open with Doom in Latveria, on his throne, pondering which of his servants he should have disintegrated. Anyway, he's just hanging out there when a mysterious object appears. In California, Tony is suited up and entertaining the crowd at a mall opening when the same object also appears! He takes it to his lab. Please note that this is after the Kathy Dare incident, so Tony is still recovering and is walking with a cane. Doom sees on the news that Iron Man has found the same object, which cannot be carbon-dated, and he shows up at Tony's house. He criticizes Tony's taste in art.

Anyway, Doom basically orders Tony to work with him. Tony refuses, and then Doom sends some robots to attempt to steal Tony's version of the object because he thinks if he has them both he will be powerful. Doom manages to steal it, and when he puts the pieces together, both he and Tony disappear.

So where do they go, you might ask? Camelot?

Not exactly. The future! There is a great callback to the Doomquest splash page.

It turns out they are in London in 2093. Merlin brought them there. Tony still hates magic. And in the future, King Arthur is still there, except he is now a child, because he has been reborn. But he does remember Tony from Doomquest, at which point Tony kneels. Doom, of course, is not impressed. He asks why they have been brought to the future.

The answer is that things are going wrong in the future. If you do not personally remember United States politics in the 1980s, I need you to google the words "Strategic Defense Initiative" right now. I'll wait.

Back with me? Okay, so this is a future where Reagan's Star Wars program actually happened the way he wanted it to, and the satellites are still hanging around the Earth in the future and messing everything up, and Arthur and Merlin need Tony and Doom's help to stop them. Doom once again flies away with his jetpack, of course.

Tony is game to help, but he's not in an armor that can stay in space for long. This is when Merlin takes him and Arthur to the mall and Tony manages to get everything to upgrade his armor at Radio Shack. You see what I meant about this issue being weird.

Tony is out in space trying to disarm the SDI platform, which is where he runs into his future descendant, Andros Stark, who is in armor you will probably recognize from Iron Man 2020. He is referred to as "the resurrected spawn of Iron Man 2020" so I assume he's actually directly related to Arno rather than a direct descendant of Tony; Wiki confirms that Arno is his grandfather. This is all from way before Arno was contemporaneous with Tony in canon. Anyway, he's fighting Tony.

Oh, by the way, Future Doom exists. Future Doom would like to rule this future Earth and for some reason Andros would like to help him. Meanwhile, Present Doom finds out from Merlin that he can't leave except by magic and he can't leave without Tony, so he is reluctantly on Tony's side.

They need help from the Lady of the Lake, except the lake has been paved over and is now a parking lot. Merlin makes the lake come back and then of course they get Excalibur. Arthur is a kid, so he can't wield a longsword; Doom assumes he's going to take it because he is basically a king, and he's pretty grumpy when the sword picks Tony. Tony then uses Excalibur to destroy the space lasers, and I bet that is a sentence you never thought you would read. It's pretty cool. Tony concludes that magic has its good points. Tony stops Andros and Doom stops, uh, himself, and the world is saved and they get to go home. Also, Doom finds out Tony is Iron Man, but when Merlin sends them back he conveniently erases their memories, so neither of them remember anything about this and Tony's secret is still safe. And that's the sequel to Doomquest.

And if you think that's weird, wait until you see Legacy of Doom.

Iron Man: Legacy of Doom is a four-issue miniseries from 2008, also by Layton and Michelinie. Even though it's from 2008, it's set during a much more classic time in Iron Man, continuing on from where we left off in this Doomquest saga. We start with a framing story in 2008. Tony, who has Extremis now, is busy scrapping some of his older armors and reviewing his logs when he suddenly remembers that there was a whole thing with Doom that happened that he seems to have forgotten about until right now. So the whole thing is narrated by Tony in flashback.

Tony's in space fixing a satellite when a hologram of Doom shows up and summons him to Latveria. It's not really clear why Doom needs Tony's help in particular here, but Doom tells Tony that he's discovered that Mephisto would like to bring about the end of the world, which Doom finds, and I quote, "presumptive." So Doom has his Time Cube, and with it he takes Tony to hell.

(Yes, I promise this is relevant to Doomquest. There will be some Arthuriana shortly.)

Doom brings Tony to Mephisto, and it turns out it's a setup! Doom trades Tony for an item he wants from Mephisto, leaves, and Tony's going to be trapped in hell forever! Oh no! (I mean, he's not. But it's quite a cliffhanger.)

At the beginning of issue #2, we find out what the Arthurian connection is, which is that we learned that after the events of Doomquest, Morgan had been granted sanctuary by Mephisto in exchange for a shard of Excalibur that she had somehow stolen. Doom still wants Morgan's help with some magic -- he doesn't mention what it is here, but he says he needs someone of Pendragon blood, and that'd be her -- so he traded Tony to Mephisto in exchange for, I'm guessing, Morgan and the Excalibur shard.

I have probably mentioned this elsewhere, but Legacy of Doom #2 is one of my favorite issues of Iron Man ever, solely because of the next scene. We return to Tony in hell. Howard Stark is also in hell, and he is now a demon, and Tony has to fight him. Mephisto brings popcorn and watches. This is the one time in canon when Tony actually confronts his father, and okay, yes, it's a fistfight in hell and Howard is a demon, but that's comics for you. Howard spends several pages insulting Tony -- specifically insulting his masculinity, but that's a whole other essay -- until he finally insults Maria too, and that's when Tony fights back, because his mother taught him to be good. Honestly if you're a Tony fan I'd recommend this issue just for that scene.

Anyway, we go back to the Doom and Morgan plot, and Morgan casts the spell Doom wanted, which was fusing the Excalibur shard with Doom's armor. Then Doom sends her back to Camelot rather than hell, because he's still mad that she never helped him get his mom out of hell like she said she would.

Tony freezes Howard with Freon -- yes, the same trick he pulled on the dragon back in Doomquest -- and tells him, "You're no father of mine." It is immensely satisfying.

(I had been going to mention that I thought it was a shame that neither canon nor fandom seems to have really engaged with this confrontation, and I know canon never believes in narrative closure but fandom sure does -- and then, anyway, it occurred to me that since the framing story of Tony remembering this is set when Tony has Extremis, there's a very good chance that he no longer remembers remembering it. Goddammit, Marvel.)

(If I got to retcon one canon thing about Tony, I think "the entirety of World's Most Wanted" is up there. I mean, okay, a lot of things are up there, but WMW is definitely on the shortlist.)

Okay. Tony has now engineered his way out of hell, and he's back with Doom in Latveria. Doom has Excalibur. Doom would very much like to fight him. While wielding Excalibur. You get the sense that this is going to be bad. Another cliffhanger!

Legacy of Doom #3 opens with Tony destroying Doom's lab to buy time and running away from Doom and Excalibur. I should probably mention that Doom still doesn't know Tony is Iron Man (anymore), so he thinks he is dealing only with Iron Man, Tony Stark's lackey. Meanwhile, some scientists at SI think there's something weird going on with space. Meanwhile meanwhile, Tony is in a forest taking a breather when a mysterious old man walks up to him.

It's Merlin! Surprise! Merlin wants Tony's help to stop Doom from doing whatever he's doing with Excalibur. The sword makes you invincible and the scabbard makes you invulnerable, so Merlin sends Tony to Scotland on a fetch quest for the scabbard. Doom has now magically sent the sword in search of the scabbard, so the sword flies away to meet it and Doom follows. Turns out the thing that's wrong with space is a thing that's going to hit Earth at the exact place Tony and Doom are. What a coincidence! So Tony and Doom get trapped in a stone circle and fight some stone warriors and then Tony ends up with the scabbard. And by "ends up with," I mean it fuses to his armor. Next issue!

Legacy of Doom #4 is when things really, really get weird. A giant demon made of eyes (???) appears, and this demon is apparently what Doom had been preparing to fight (because it's mad that Doom stole one of its spellbooks), and now he can't, because the sword and the scabbard aren't together. Thanks, Shellhead.

That's when Merlin shows up and says all is not lost. They can defeat the demon... if they put the sword into the scabbard.

"But I'm the scabbard now!" Tony says, uncomprehending.

"Yes," Merlin says. "You are."

Then Tony gets it.

So, yes, Doom has to, um, penetrate Tony. With Excalibur. I love comics. I love comics so much.

So that's a thing that happens.

And then Tony flies off and, I guess, resolves to never, ever think about any of this again.

We head back to the framing story, in which Tony, now having remembered all of this, flies to Britain, buys the land the lake is on, and paves it over, presumably so it will be there for Merlin to bring back in Iron Man #250. The end.

Whew.

Okay, yeah, I know I didn't have to summarize the whole thing, but Legacy of Doom here really is one of my favorite Iron Man miniseries. And I just want to share the love. Please read it. It's great.

But the Arthuriana fun doesn't end there! In fact, now we get an Arthurian-themed arc that actually isn't in Iron Man comics. It's in Avengers! Iron Man is involved, though.

(There is also apparently a Morgan arc in Avengers #240. I actually haven't read it. It seems to be yet another Spider-Woman arc. I get the impression that this isn't really Arthuriana other than having Morgan in it fighting Jess, though, so it doesn't seem quite as relevant. Morgan also apparently has some appearances in FF, Journey into Mystery, and Marvel Team-Up, but those seem like more of just basic villainy. Also, probably not involving Tony.)

Kurt Busiek's 1998 Avengers run, volume 3, is in large part the kind of Avengers run that is a nostalgic love letter to older comics. Heroes are heroes and villains are villains and good triumphs over evil. The Avengers all live in the mansion and are BFFs. I love it. It does assume that you are already a fan of the Avengers, because it starts out by summoning pretty much everyone who has ever been an Avenger and is available to the mansion, and that is... a lot of people. Thirty-nine, by my count. Also, when the entire team is magically whisked away, we are treated to the following narration, as Steve disappears: "And Captain America's last thought, as the world goes white around him, and he with it -- is that Iron Man would hate this."

The narration doesn't tell you why Iron Man would hate this, or how Captain America would know that Iron Man hates this. This is not explained later on. But if you have read comics -- or if you have read the above summary of Doomquest -- you know that Tony is absolutely, one hundred percent, thinking, "I hate magic." And Steve knows it.

The reference is not relevant to the plot; if you don't get it, you'll be fine. But that's what I mean when I say this is a nostalgia run. There are definitely Easter eggs for people who have read a bunch of comics. Busiek does this a whole lot in his work -- there's a reason you can buy an annotated edition of Marvels -- and, yeah, it happens here too. Just know that there will be references you're not getting, if you're new to comics.

Anyway. So Busiek's run actually starts out with an Arthurian arc, #1-4, "The Morgan Conquest." The name is a dead giveaway. Yes, Morgan le Fay is back. Again. For once, Doom is not involved.

The Avengers are all back from their sojourn on Counter-Earth after fighting Onslaught -- don't worry about it -- and mysterious things are happening. There are a lot of monster attacks. So pretty much everyone who has ever been an Avenger is summoned to the mansion, at which point we learn from Thor about some mystical artifacts that are being stolen. (They are the Norn Stones and also the Twilight Sword. That sounds like something from a Zelda game, doesn't it?) The Avengers go to try to stop this, end up in Tintagel, and then they run into Mordred. He wants to capture Wanda, presumably for Magic Reasons. Morgan le Fay casts a spell on all of them, reshaping reality. Yes, all of them. Surprise!

So now all the Avengers are living in a medieval castle and/or town; Morgan is their queen, and thanks to the power of mind-control they are all basically living in Ye Olden Times. The Avengers are all some variety of knight, except for Wanda, who is chained up in the dungeon so Morgan can steal her magic and use it to fuel all this reality-warping.

Wanda calls for help, and that snaps Steve (Yeoman America!) out of the mind control (or altered reality or whatever you want to call it) pretty fast, because Steve's always been very good at resisting mind control, and then Steve promptly goes and snaps Clint out of it, because I guess Steve is also good at inspiring people to snap out of mind control. "Oh, man!" Clint says. "Not another alternate reality! Not again!" (I assume he's referring to Counter-Earth? Maybe?)

So Steve and Clint go around reassembling the Avengers and orienting them as to reality. They get Jan and Monica easily, but then Steve insists on trying to get Tony because, I guess, he likes Tony and would really like to hang around Tony, who is half-naked and asleep in his bedroom, and certainly I am reading nothing whatsoever into this. Clint tells Steve it's not going to work. Tony has historically been fairly susceptible to mind control; it was only pretty recently at this point that he'd been doing Kang's bidding in The Crossing. But the more serious impediment is that this is Tony Stark and he would obviously like to LARP being a knight forever and ever. Tony, therefore, does not believe Steve, and throws him and Clint out of his bedroom and into the barracks.

"Iron Man's a good guy, normally," Clint says. "But he's waaay too into his whole nobleman/lord of the manor trip. That spell musta hit him right where he lives!"

Clint speaks the truth, clearly.

Anyway, they go around and manage to make pretty much every Avenger in the room other than Tony snap out, and attempt to rebel against Morgan while Tony is stil fighting them because he is Still A Knight. There's a lot of punching, because some of the Avengers still aren't free; they weren't ones Steve found.

The day is saved when Wanda manages to channel Wonder Man and break free. This gives the Avengers a fighting chance against Morgan and the Avengers are all lending Wanda their power when Tony finally snaps out of it and is on the side of good.

Then they take Morgan down, go home, and attempt to figure out which of these thirty-nine people should be on the active Avengers team. Hooray.

But that's not the end of Morgan le Fay showing up to screw around with Tony's life! There's more to come! Not much, but there is one that I know of, and at least one more memorable reference.

(I haven't read all her appearances or anything, but one of them definitely involves Tony; I can't swear that he doesn't appear in any of the other books Morgan shows up in, but it'd be a cameo for him, because I only know of one more arc that she's in in a book that Tony stars in.)

In a few more years, we have now entered the part of Marvel Comics history where Brian Michael Bendis writes all the Avengers books at the same time for, like, seven years running. It was sure A Time. There were a lot of word bubbles.

And the thing about Bendis is, Bendis looooooves Doomquest. If you're familiar with the very end of his tenure at Marvel where he made Doom be Iron Man after Tony got knocked into a coma in Civil War II, you have probably figured out already that he likes Doom. But he also likes Doomquest, specifically.

I mean, if nothing else, the giant splash page in The Confession where Maleev redrew the climactic Doomquest fight while Bendis had Tony talk about how deeply meaningful to his understanding of the world this all was -- and how it allowed him to predict Civil War -- was probably a big clue, right?

As far as I am aware, Morgan le Fay makes exactly one more appearance in Tony's life. And that's in Mighty Avengers vol 1 #9-11. Only one of those issues is named, so I'm going to assume the arc is named after it: Time Is On No One's Side.

You remember Mighty Avengers, right? The deal with the Avengers books at the time was that after Bendis exploded the mansion and made the team disband in Avengers Disassembled, the main Avengers book was no longer called just Avengers. Instead, the main Avengers book was New Avengers, and that was the only Avengers book. Then Civil War happened, Steve got killed, and New Avengers became the book about what was left of the SHRA resistance (i.e., Steve's side) after the war. So about halfway through New Avengers, Mighty Avengers starts up, and Mighty Avengers is about an extremely fucked-up and grief-stricken Tony Stark trying to run the official government-sanctioned Avengers team, with Carol's help. This is the comic with the arc where Tony turned into naked girl Ultron. You remember.

So, anyway, there's this Mighty Avengers arc where Doom is Up To Something (there are symbiotes and a satellite involved) and somehow Tony and the Avengers end up in Latveria, punching Doom. Also, by the way, Doom is visiting Morgan in the past because he likes her. The Avengers attacking his castle made him have to come back to the present, so he's kind of cranky. And he fights Tony, and in the course of the fight, his time platform explodes and sends Doom and Tony and also the Sentry to... the past.

This is one of those times where you should definitely look up the comics if possible because the way the past is visually indicated here is that it's colored with halftone dots the way you would expect old comics to be colored, although they have modern shading and color palettes. It's very charmingly retro.

So the three of them are stuck in New York in the past, and naturally they would like to leave. There's one person in this time who has a time machine and it is, of course, Reed Richards. Doom and Tony have a lot of banter in this arc; I think it's entertaining.

Sentry has to be the one to break them all into the Baxter Building because of that power he has where no one will remember him. So they do that, travel forward in time, and end up in Latveria in the present again except Doom is gone and also things are currently exploding where they are.

Doom, of course, has made a side trip to visit Morgan again and he asks her to help him build an army, because I guess this is what their relationship is like. So the rest of the Avengers are captured by what look to me like Mindless Ones and are in a cave in magic bondage, because comics. Jess comments that at least they aren't naked, because she too is remembering that memorable New Avengers trip to the Savage Land. Doom threatens Carol in some creepy sexist ways and eventually it turns out that Tony and the Sentry are fine and everyone kicks Doom's ass. Business as usual.

And the last page of the arc is Morgan alone, wondering where Doom is. So technically Morgan and Tony don't come face to face here, but I think she counts as being at least partially responsible for ruining Tony's day here. And then Secret Invasion happens and Tony has a very, very bad day.

There are a few more Morgan appearances after this, but, as I said, I don't think any of them involve Tony. She shows up in Dark Avengers, apparently, which was one of the post-Civil War Avengers titles I didn't read, and I know that recently, on the X-Men side of things, she's been in Tini Howard's Excalibur one, which I have only read a little of. No Tony there. Just a lot of Morgan and Betsy Braddock and Brian Braddock and the Otherworld.

If you are interested in Morgan's other appearances, you might like this Marvel listicle that is Morgan le Fay's six most malicious acts. I pulled some of the Darkhold backstory from their discussion, but it's not really focused on Morgan and Tony.

So there you have it! That's everything I know about Tony's love for King Arthur and every run-in I know about that he's had with Morgan le Fay! One of two terrible people in Tony's life named Morgan! Actually, I don't think we've seen Morgan Stark in a while. I wonder if he's alive. There should be a Morgan & Morgan team-up. I should probably stop typing and post this.

The tl;dr point is that you should all read Doomquest and its sequels, especially Legacy of Doom. They're great!

#posts i actually wrote

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sleepymarmot · 4 years

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A couple of thoughts about Meng Shi and Meng Yao inspired by the article linked in the previous post. (Yes, I understand that the article is about a later period than the ones the fantasy world of MDZS seems to be based on.)

1) Both in the book and the show, Jin Guangshan talks with contempt about the idea of an educated woman -- in general, and Meng Shi specifically. And in the book’s brothel flashback, Meng Shi’s fellow prostitutes speak of her ambitions in the same way:

AnXin, “The things your mom wants you to learn, things like calligraphy, etiquette, swordsmanship, meditation… How are those things going?”

Before she even finished, the clients began to chuckle as if they found something to be funny. AnXin turned around, “Don’t laugh, I’m telling the truth here. His mom’s raising him as a young master of a wealthy family. She taught him how to read and write, bought him all those swordsmanship pamphlets, and even wants to send him to school.” (...)

AnXin switched up a grin, “She sure did. She was set on bearing a child. Could a woman keep up her looks after she gives birth? If not because she could manage to live off her past name of being ‘talented’, there might not be any who comes to her. I say it’s all because of the books.”

A client showed his deep understanding, “Of course. Those who’ve touched ink always have that inexplicable pride with them. They don’t want to give up the notion.”

AnXin, “If she could feed herself with the books she’s read, then I wouldn’t be saying anything, but it’s just a gimmick to attract men after all. I’m gonna be blunt here—we’re all bitches, and you’re better just because you’ve read some books? What’s the pride for? Not only do the people outside look down on her, do you think our other sisters here like her either? The clients here sometimes choose to see a young maiden keep up her modesty as a change of pace but who’d pay for an old, ugly one? It’s long since her fame dwindled. Everyone knows, and she’s the only one who doesn’t understand…”

(Chapter 105)

So, both worlds judge Meng Shi for acting above her station: a common prostitute trying to act like a courtesan, or even like a woman with a high position in society. And then, when her son manages to enter the cultivation society, people judge him for exactly the same thing.

2) Would JGY’s reaction to the insult “prostitute’s son” be considered indicative of filial piety or the lack thereof? Is he being a good son by taking it seriously when people refer to his mother as an insult -- or a bad son by being ashamed of her? I wonder if any of the collections of stories about filial piety contained examples of children of prostitutes or other marginalized members of society, and if so, what the model behavior for them looked like.

3) The statue of Guanyin bears Meng Shi’s likeness. Here’s how the book comments on it:

As one sect leader saw the features of the Guanyin statue, he first paused in surprise, then pointed at it for others to see as though he found something new and interesting, “Look at its face! Doesn’t it look like Jin GuangYao?”

Everyone mused after they looked, “It’s his face indeed! Why would Jin GuangYao make such a thing?”

Sect Leader Yao, “To declare himself a god with wild arrogance, of course.”

“Arrogant indeed, then, hahaha.”

Wei WuXian thought to himself, No, not necessarily.

Jin GuangYao’s mother was seen as the lowest prostitutes, so he decided to carve a Guanyin statue with his mother’s appearance, receiving the worship of tens of thousands.

(Chapter 110)

The wiki retells this as “he built an entire temple in his mother's image so that she would receive the praise of thousands, allowing her to reincarnate into a better life”. And while that’s true, I think Sect Leader Yao’s interpretation also makes sense (o horror!)... he just didn’t know whom JGY was declaring a god. Guanyin is a bodhisattva usually associated with mercy and compassion, who in stories may appear before humans in various disguises to help them. By depicting Guanyin with the face of his mother who loved and supported him, doesn’t JGY imply that Meng Shi herself was a manifestation of Guanyin, or, less metaphorically, someone who embodied her qualities?

#the untamed #blah blah blah #meng shi

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winterhawkremix · 4 years

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These can also be found by clicking on the FAQ link on the blog.

What is a ‘remix’?

This is a tough question to answer, because everyone’s definition is a little bit different. Basically, you can change the length, the mood, the POV character, whatever you want. The only two things you have to keep the same are the pairing and basic plotline – otherwise it’s a whole new fic, and not a remix.

For some examples of remixing methods, please see the Fanlore page about them: https://fanlore.org/wiki/Remix

Do I need an AO3 account?

Yep – all remixes will be posted on AO3. If you don’t have an account, send us an ask with your email address and we’ll email you an invite to join.

What if my fic isn’t on AO3 at the moment?

That’s fine! There’s a place on the sign-up to let us know where to find your fic

What counts as an eligible fic?

A fic is eligible if it’s at least 1,000 words long and a completed work, not a WIP. It must also focus on Clint Barton and Bucky Barnes and their relationship.

What’s the difference between submission and posting?

Submission is when all remixes have to be uploaded onto AO3 by. These fic will not be public at this point, so you won’t see them in the tags. They’re essentially wrapped presents – they’re there but you don’t know what they are.

Posting is when all the fic go live, and they all become readable, aka the fun unwrapping of the present. However, all the writers will still be anonymous at this point.

Author reveals is when you find out who the actual writer is.

So how do I post my remixed fic onto AO3 anonymously?

More details on that nearer the time!

What do I call my remix?

The usual format is ‘Original Title (The _____ Remix)’ similar to song remixes. The blank depends entirely on how you changed the story. You can see examples of remix titles here.

What if I need to drop out?

Please tell us ASAP! We can make sure your assigned person still gets a fic by asking if anyone wants to pinch-hit (aka sub in and write something on short notice).

Fandom isn’t the most important thing in the world and we understand that, but if you drop out without telling us, things get a whole lot more messy and you may be excluded from future WinterHawk Remix Challenges.

What do I need to take part?

Because this challenge involves taking someone else’s existing fic and remixing it, you need to have some existing fic. And everyone likes a little choice, so we ask that you have at least five fics of 1000 words or more, OR three fics of 3000 words or more, all focused on Clint Barton and Bucky Barnes and the relationship between them. You can also have a 'safe’ work, which you nominate, which your remixer cannot remix, the 3/5 fics should be in addition to this fic.

To make things easier for your remixer, you’ll need to have a place - such as your AO3 profile, or a tumblr post - which contains links to all the fic available for this challenge. You will be asked to provide the URL of this list during sign up and one of the mods will check you meet the minimum requirements.

What is a safe fic?

You can nominate one fic of yours that you do not want someone to touch – that fic will not be eligible to be remixed. You still need at least 2/3 other eligible fic to sign up for the remix.

Are polyships allowed?

Short answer: yes. Long answer: this challenge is focused on Winterhawk, so ideally Bucky and Clint will be the main characters in your fics and in the fic you write as part of this challenge. However, we want this challenge to be accessible to as many people as possible, so you can enter with polyship fics, as long as that polyship includes Bucky and Clint as major characters and they are the main focus of the remix fic you write. The remix fic you write should only include a poly relationship if the original fic is a polyship fic. If you do not wish to write polyships, you can mention this in the Do Not Wants section of the sign-up form.

How much do I need to write?

This isn’t a big bang, so the minimum word count isn’t huge. All remixes should be a minimum of 1000 words. There is no maximum word count, but bear in mind that there is a deadline.

When is the deadline?

Important dates for this remix are:

March 27th - sign ups open April 15th - sign ups close May 1st - remix assignments go out June 20th - fic submission to AO3 June 25th - anonymous fic reveal! June 30th - Author reveals!

That gives you just under 2 months to write your fic!

I don’t like [insert trope here] can I stop my remixer from using it/can I not remix fics with that trope?

The primary focus of this challenge is not a gift exchange, so we’re not as focused on likes/dislikes as other challenges. That said, we don’t want anyone to be triggered or upset by this challenge, so there is a section in the sign-up form so you can indicate any tropes you do not want to write/read. We’ll match you up as best as possible, but it’s possible your remixee might have some fics with tropes you don’t like, they should have enough other fics that you can avoid those.

As far as stopping your remixer from using tropes you don’t like, you can list things you absolutely can’t stand, but remember that we don’t want to limit the remixers too much, so try to keep this as limited as you feel you can. You know your own limits best.

I don’t like any of my remixee’s fics, what do I do?

That sucks. Sorry. But take another look and see if there are any ideas in there that might inspire you. While we hope you find fics you love, a fic doesn’t need to be your favourite thing ever for you to remix, in fact, if it were your favourite fic ever, that might be worse. The whole point of this challenge is to retell someone else’s story in a new and interesting way, so try to find a fic that you can retell in your own way. If you really can’t manage it at all and you want to drop out, then contact the mods at [email protected].

This is so much fun! Can I remix more than one fic?

Sure! As long as they’re finished by the deadline, you can definitely do more than one. You can even sign up as a pinch-hitter to help out if someone needs to drop out (please do, pinch-hitters are the heroes of every fandom challenge). You can remix any of your remixee’s eligible fics apart from the fic they have designated as their 'safe’ fic (if they have one). No one’s going to say no to more fic!

This is a cool idea, where did you get it from?

Well, we’ve taken part in remix challenges before. For a more comprehensive look at the history of the remix in fandom, take a look at the Fanlore page: https://fanlore.org/wiki/Remix

My remixee has fics that aren’t WinterHawk, can I remix one of those/can I make one of those WinterHawk?

We’re glad you found so much fic that inspires you! However, this is a WinterHawk challenge, so we ask that all fics involved have Clint and Bucky as the main focus, and the relationship between them. There are other remix challenges out there that are more general, or if you can’t find exactly what you’re looking for, it would be great to start one of your own.

Why are the fics being posted anonymously?

Partly for fun, partly to make sure this challenge isn’t too daunting to people who don’t write much fic or aren’t ‘big names’ in the Winterhawk corner. This seems the fairest way to give every fic a chance to shine, and every author a chance to be seen. We hope you find new authors to love!

Isn’t this plagiarism?

No more than fanfic is plagiarism in and of itself. Almost all of Shakespeare’s plays are based on pre-existing stories, but he retold them in his own way. Disney’s Maleficent is a remix of Sleeping Beauty from the antagonist’s perspective and Thor knows how many versions of Cinderella are out there. Mostly a remix is an entirely different fic, although in some cases dialogue might be copied from one to another - for a POV retelling for example. Don’t think of the original fic as a blueprint, think of it as a jumping off point. Don’t copy it, reimagine it. Don’t be afraid to let your imagination loose!

#Winterhawk Remix #Winterhawk #FAQ

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kingofthewilderwest · 6 years

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I can't stop thinking about how beautiful Lotor and Allura's children would be if they ended up being together

Oh goodness. Lotor is unfairly pretty, as is Allura. That’s quite a lot of way-too-pretty genetics all in one place! XD

Now… I don’t like raining on anyone’s parade, and I know you just want to have a friendly squee, but I hope it’s okay to bring up how Lotor and Allura have been written throughout the Voltron franchise. I want to write this as a fair warning in case people don’t realize what the issue with Allotor is. Now, technically, if we were looking just at VLD, Lotor and Allura’s interactions have been fine, so I can see why people who lack context to the full franchise would jump into a ship with these two. But the ongoing history of Lotor and Allura hasn’t been so innocent. It’s consequently why I personally would be uncomfortable to hook them up.

The longstanding tradition between Lotor and Allura has been… Lotor lusting after Allura, and trying to force her into a romance.

It’s not been pretty.

Beast King Golion (1981-1982) is the main source material from which the Voltron franchise developed. It set the stage for many things, including how Lotor (Prince Sincline) interacted with Allura (Fala). Even one summarizing paragraph from the Voltron wiki gives us an extremely unpleasant situation:

Sincline’s obsession with Fala was revealed that she resembles his mother and that his obsession was rooted in an Oedipus complex. Sincline’s infatuation with Fala is a constant motivation behind most of his attempts to defeat Golion to which even his father warned him to stop. Because of that obsession, Sincline kidnapped Fala’s identical cousin, Princess Amue of Heracles, rapes her, and attempted to execute her after she foiled his plans.

I own the entire Beast King Golion series on DVD, and I can confirm that Sincline does indeed try to pursue Fala and take her against his will. These screencaps all come from just one episode:

Fala is unconscious, Sincline steps over her, declares he’s going to make her his wife, and then picks up her up to kiss her. Obviously this is as “not okay” as you can get between Lotor/Sincline and Allura/Fala.

Voltron: Defender of the Universe (1984-1985) takes the animation of BKG but edits out and tones down its most disturbing content - avoiding deaths, blood, etc. - but it still keeps the concept of Lotor constantly pursuing Allura. This is the corresponding DotU episode from the BKG screencaps I gave you. “Give Me Your Princess” is also about Lotor deciding he wants to take Allura as his bride - something she obviously doesn’t want. And this becomes a recurring conflict throughout the DotU series.

Voltron: The Third Dimension (1998-2000) is part of the franchise I haven’t gotten to yet, but it’s written essentially as a sequel to DotU. Though I haven’t watched T3D, I have seen a few clips, and in E3 “Building the Forces of Doom,” Haggar shows Lotor his dreams and his fears. The dream he desires is… you guessed it… Allura…

The history of Lotor chasing after Allura makes its way into the comics and graphic novels. The Devil’s Due Publishing omnibus (2008), which retells DotU with more depth, grit, and maturity, is perhaps my favorite telling of Voltron. I’ve had my suspicions since S4 that VLD has been influenced by material within DDP, given as it contains a story where Sven (aka Shiro) is rejected from his lion, seems to get brainwashed by Haggar, betrays Voltron, and teams up with Lotor. There’s a point where Voltron and Lotor make a temporary alliance to fight against Yurak/Sendak. There’s a fight for leadership and power within the Drule (Galra) Empire. And it’s the only material in the Voltron franchise that seems to write a strong psychic bond between the Voltron pilots, their lions, and each other. Sound familiar?

So, one other thing that DDP brings up is the idea of Zarkon and Alfor initially being at peace, but then Zarkon capturing the planet Arus/Altea when Lotor and Allura were children. In this telling of Voltron, Lotor and Allura knew each other during childhood.

This gets slightly closer to what we see in VLD, but it also perpetuates the impure nature of Allotor. When Lotor reunites with Allura, he grabs her and says, “Now I’ve returned. And by rights, the spoils of war are mine for the taking.” This proceeds into a fight where Lance tries to stop Lotor from doing anything.

(Apologies for the terrible picture I took with my phone).

So what’s repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly been the case in Voltron canon for thirty years, starting back in 1981 and going well into the 2000s, is Lotor pursuing Allura and attempting to take her without consent.

The creators of Voltron: Legendary Defender have consciously cut away many of the franchise’s historic problems regarding issues like gender representation and misogyny. They’ve done away with the trope of one female character existing in an otherwise all-male team; Pidge, originally, Darrell Stoker, has become Katie Holt. They’ve written Allura far more favorably, with much less emphasis on her being the “pretty one” who’s not as good fighting because she’s “just a woman” (yes, this was in BKG). Instead of giving Lotor a harem (yes, this was in BKG and DotU, too), VLD has Lotor working respectfully with women generals. The writers have also intentionally promoted racial diversity by giving Hunk a Samoan background, Shiro a Japanese background, Lance a Cuban background, and designing Allura with a darker skin tone.

And VLD - praise God - seems to have consciously cut away Lotor lusting after Allura, trying to capture her, and trying to force her to marry him.

Now here’s the reason why I don’t like the concept of Lotor and Allura hooking up in VLD. In the DreamWorks show itself, there’s nothing wrong with Lotor and Allura’s interactions. That’s totally fine. If we look at it in a vacuum, it’s fine. And I like that it no longer writes that poisonous material between them. However… how disrespectful would it be for VLD’s creators to take a relationship that’s been written for 30 years as desired rape… and turn it into a romance? By writing an Allotor romance, they’d be acknowledging all the material that’s come before… all the very, very, uncomfortably impure material that’s come before. However you write an Allotor romance in the present day, there’s no way to deny that the firmly-embedded history of Allotor is non-consensual.

I don’t like the concept of taking something that’s been so thoroughly written as unhealthy, and which is well-known within old time Voltron fans as unhealthy, and making it into a new healthy ship. It’s not that it would “legitimize” the old, gross Allotor stuff. But it would… sweep aside all the problems behind it. It’s far more respectful and less controversial to simply delete Lotor’s romantic interests in Allura altogether.

I mean… if you think about it in terms of real life… if you were someone who had been sexually harassed by someone in the past, and then people wrote a novel about you based upon your real life where your harasser was now a nice prince charming… wouldn’t that feel… disturbing and disrespectful… to you?

So it means that I don’t want VLD to write Allotor. The way VLD has set up Allura and Lotor, yes, it would be alluring on its own. But the problem is that it’s not on its own. And it also means that I’m not going to hop onto any fandom ships for these two, either. I don’t enter ship wars. I don’t. I always want people to have fun shipping! I’m happy with people shipping whatever they want, just so long as they don’t hit any of the following three points: incest, pedophilia, and inherent abuse/lack of consent. Allotor rubs me wrong because of point number three.

So like you’re seeing here, if I see people hit upon one of these points, then I like to kindly inform people why I think it’s not the best ship to ship.

If VLD is going to write in a reciprocated romance between Allura and another individual (and they might not), they have some good options that also have franchise precedent, or at least franchise basis. Allura kisses Lance’s cheek several times in DotU, making him blush. Allura and Keith get engaged in Voltron Force comics, there’s a long Kallura plot arc in the Devil’s Due Publishing Omnibus, and Allura professes Keith as the one she loves in other DotU comics, too. And of course VLD always has the option of going on a new romance that hasn’t been done before, as I’m sure Shallura shippers would be quick to pipe up.

Again, I’m sorry to rain on your parade, since you’re so happily imagining how good looking Allura x Lotor children would look like! I know how much fun it is to imagine these things with our ships.

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twdmusicboxmystery · 6 years

Text

Titles Meta, Part 2

Good morning! I wanted to get the second part of my titles meta posted today before I post my thoughts about the MSF, because I think what I say in this post will help shed some light on my thoughts about the MSF.

Check out Part 1 of the Titles Meta HERE.

Remember that @thegloriouscollectorlady and I collaborated on these titles metas. While Part 1 was mostly my thoughts with a few of hers sprinkled in, this post is the opposite: mostly her thoughts with a few of mine sprinkled in.

Today I want to focus on specific groupings of titles, including titles that begin with a similar letter.

In Part 1, I say that we always see a pattern of three or more episodes grouped in the middle of the season, which deal with something different than the first episodes dealt with, and often the back half of the season is about dealing with the fallout of these three episodes in the center.

So, for example, in S4, we had episodes 6-8, which were all about the Governor, and culminated in the downfall of the prison. Those three episodes were very different than episodes in the first part of the season, that dealt with the virus. Then, the back half of the season (4b) dealt with the fallout of the prison's loss. We've seen this pattern at least loosely in all the seasons since S4.

C-Titles:

I mentioned in Part 1 that in season 5, we have three C-Titles right around the MSF where Beth was shot: Consumed, Crossed, and Coda. And remember that Crossed was originally called Straight, but was changed for unknown reasons. I'm sure it was because they were trying to brand those three episodes around Beth's "death."

So while talking about this, we tried to figure out what the C stood for. My first thought was that it was "Christianity" because Beth is the Christ figure. I also considered the title Conquer, which was the final of S5, and the last time we saw the music box. So I thought maybe the C could stand for "conquer" or "victory, " because if Beth is alive, there's some kind of victory in each of those episodes.

Then after hearing @katkhaos's theory about Morgan being the coda, we realized we'd missed the most obvious meaning of C: Coda.

So our working theory is that every episode that begins with C is directly related to or about the coda structure of the story. Of course there are other things going on in those episodes as well, but the episode is most focused, through symbolism, character development, and/or plot on the coda aspects.

So in S4, we have Claimed. In this episode, Rick escapes from the house where the Claimers come in. It's one of the biggest foreshadows of Grady we had in S4. He's imprisoned, has to go through a window, does so with scissors in his hand, then reunites "up the road" with his family (Carl and Michonne). There are also foreshadows of the wolves and the Alaska theme, which I'll talk more about next week.

Then in S5, we have Consumed, Crossed, and Coda, which are obviously all related to Beth's arc and the coda. Conquer was interesting because it's specifically the episode where Morgan reunites with TF. I'll talk about Morgan more tomorrow, but he was kind of the "first" coda. The first character to disappear, first in S1 and then return in S3. But obviously his story wasn't over then. We were really left hanging in that episode. Now he's returned again. And when/if ever he dies, I'm sure it will be in a way that closes his arc entirely, just as they did with Sasha. Remember, everything gets a return. So if Morgan reuniting with TF in 5x16 is a template for Beth, obviously that has everything to do with the coda structure. We also saw wolves stuff in that episode, and hints at the Sasha/Tyreese stuff from the missing 17 days, all of which revolves around Beth.

The only other episode we may be able to relate to this is The Cell in season 7. That was obviously all about Daryl, but had major callbacks to Beth, especially through the music (X), and major development (in a negative way) for Daryl. Obviously that could be related to the whole coda structure.

Let's move on to A, I, and F titles.

First, though, check out this line that jumped out at me while re-watching 7x13 this summer:

After Benjamin is shot, Gavin yells at Ezekiel saying that from now on he will deliver his offerings to the saviors on time and it will all be there, or else. He says, "It's As or Fs, no Is." I'm assuming that means letter grades. A would be the highest or top of the class. F would be failing. Is would be "incompletes" which the saviors won't accept. Just keep this in mind while we talk.

I-Titles:

All I titles without exception come from S4. Infected, Isolation, Indifference, Internment, and Inmates. There have been no other I titles since S4. At one point in 4a, Rick says to Hershel, "was that indifference?" When talking about how he'd stepped down from leadership and been a farmer. So I've always thought the I-titles meant having some kind of negative attitude toward the situation at hand. But based on Gavin's line in S7, maybe the I-titles represent something being incomplete. That's interesting because there are a lot of things from S4 that have never been explained.

A-Titles:

Before we get started, check out this info @katkhaos found:

1. Atlanta used to be called Terminus.

2. There’s a phoenix statue in Atlanta.

3. Origin of the name, Slab Town (from wiki):

I didn't know most of this. I knew that Atlanta was originally called Terminus, as that was highly circulated back when S4 aired. But I didn't know the other details, especially about Slabtown. How many times have I said that Slabtown is a weird title? Obviously it was put in purposefully and with intent that makes sense, given what was going on at Grady.

So we've gone over a lot of things we think the A in the titles might represent. A has been a big visual symbol in the show throughout the seasons, as well as a frequent letter for starting titles.

We've talked about it meaning trials and death, because A block was where those sick with the virus were put. It was "death row." And every time we've seen As it's been in conjunction with major trials, such as the train car at Terminus, the A on FG's church, which was when Bob died and the Termites attacked. We saw it at Alexandria around Sam, who later died, and Carol saw it specifically after the wolf attack in 6x02. Then there's the A on the back of Daryl's shirt at the Sanctuary.

We've also discussed it meaning "first" bc it's the first letter of the alphabet. So TF = the first family of the apocalypse. (Hey, it could just mean Apocalypse, right? ;D) I've also thought it might mean reunion, because in 4x16, the A train car WAS a reunion for most of TF. Beth wasn't there, but nearly everyone else was. And many of the As we've seen have been right after the group as a whole or specific characters came back together.

But given the info above, perhaps A means Atlanta. Perhaps all episodes that start with A point back toward Atlanta in some way.

So in S4, we have After, Alone, and A. Obviously the group was still just outside Atlanta at that point, but obviously Alone and A are very Beth-heavy. Alone: obviously. A because we had the sheriff's hate flashback in it. After is less obvious but we do have a lot of Beth/Carl parallels in that episode, including scissors and bats, and the fact that Carl goes off on his own and survives. So they do all point to stuff that happened in or around Atlanta, both literally and symbolically.

The only other A title we have is in S6, Always Accountable. And that has SO much Beth symbolism in it, including the Cherokee Rose, so it's really interesting if this episode is meant to point us back to Atlanta.

F-Titles:

I wanted to touch briefly on these bc of Gavin's line. If F = fail, then maybe all the F-Titles (and there aren't many) have something to do with a failure on TF's part. There are none in S4. In S5, we have Four Walls and a Roof. They conquered the Termites, but with a great deal of brutality. Plus Bob died in this episode. So where TF's humanity is concerned, it might be considered an epic fail.

In 5b, we have Forget. The fails are much smaller here, but I’m thinking of both Daryl and Sasha. They are two of the three characters from Them who were very lost at this point in the story. Daryl tried to go in to the dinner party, but couldn't bring himself to do so. Sasha went, but had a bit of a meltdown while there. So the Fs may stand for when TF or particular characters try to do things, but fail. (There's also the "try/trying" theme to consider, though we don't see that in the titles.)

In S6, we have First Time Again. I think that title is mostly about the beginning of the retellings, but we do have Operation Lead the Walkers Away to consider. Overall it was not a success. Half the herd broke off and went toward Alexandria, so you could call that an epic fail too.

There really aren't any other titles that start with F. There is "The First Day of the Rest of Your Life," but that actually begins with "the" and I'm going to talk about "the" titles in a minute, so I'll come back to that one.

S-Titles:

We have quite a few S-titles. @thegloriouscollectorlady noticed that, specifically in S7, the S Titles seemed to revolve around TF searching for guns for the war. So we have Service, where the guns were taken from Alexandria by Negan. Swear, where Tara finds Oceanside, which is where TF will eventually take a bunch of guns for the war. In Sing Me a Song, while Carl is at the Sanctuary, Rick and Aaron are out searching for supplies (to give the Saviors) and Michonne is on a mission of her own, searching for the Sanctuary. In Say Yes, Richonne is specifically looking for guns. In Something They Need, TF goes to Oceanside and filches all their guns.

So while in S7, most of these revolved around guns, I'm going to make the assumption a little broader and say that S-Titles are about searching for something. Something they need. (S = search.) The reason is that there are other things besides guns they search for. And then let's look back at other S Titles:

S4: Still. Wow. I could really go down the rabbit hole with this one. I could go on and on about Daryl and Beth were emotionally searching for a lot of things. For each other. Freedom from their negative pasts. A way through their grief. A way to let go of the tragedy at the prison and move forward. In terms of plot, they spent a lot of the episode searching for supplies, and for booze.

And @boltthrutheheart and I have had extensive convos about how interesting it is symbolically that the moonshine is a much stronger drink than the peach schnapps Of course Daryl was totally looking down his nose as the fruity drink, but even in terms of alcoholic percentage, moonshine has a MUCH higher proof than the schnapps did. And that's interesting because of Beth's, "I am strong." She COULD have drank the schnapps of course, but she needed to be stronger than that. And was. So moonshine was much more her drink symbolically. She held her liquor very well. Almost unrealistically well given that it was her first drink.

Okay I'll stop. But definitely things being searched for in Still.

In S5 we had Strangers, Slabtown, Self-Help, and Spend. In Strangers, TF looks for food at the food bank, you could argue FG is looking for redemption. But most important is Daryl looking for Beth. This is the episode where he and Carol take off for Atlanta (A).

Slabtown was Beth's episode, so I doubt I have to explain it. In terms of searching, she's searching for a way out, searching for her own emotional strength, and searching for her family, though she doesn't get to do so very actively bc she's imprisoned at the hospital.

In Self-Help, they're looking for D.C. in order to figure out the cure, which doesn't work so well. (You could also argue that in all of these S-Titled episodes, they hit major walls while searching for things.)

Finally, there's Spend. Plot-wise, in Spend, they're looking for micro-converters for the power grid (Lamp Theory). And of course Noah dies, so we get a lot of phoenix symbolism from this episode.

In S6, we have Start to Finish. Tons of Beth symbolism in Sam's room at the beginning. I almost need to re-watch this to figure out what's being searched for here. Sam's searching for his courage, which he never really finds. They're searching for a way out because they're surrounded by walkers. And I know Deanna talks to Michonne about figuring out what she wants out of life. (2 episodes later, Richonne happens, which is really NOT a coincidence.)

I already went over S7 S-Titles. In S8, we have Some Guy, the most recent episode. In it, they are still trying to get a hold of the weapons/guns. Carol almost got them but let them go to save Ezekiel. In the end, it seems Rick and Daryl finally got them by running the jeep off the road.

"The" Titles:

We've noticed that any time a title starts with "the" it tends to focus on the development of one character. It's not always a bottle episode, but at some point it focuses on one character's reaction to things.

So in S4, we had The Grove, which was obviously all about Carol's arc. Ty was there too, of course, but the focus was on Carol, and it affected her the most moving forward.

In S5, The Distance. Again, most of the characters are in this, but it focused on Rick's eyes and what he heard before going into Alexandria. So it focused most on his development and whether he could accept this new community.

In S6, there's The Next World and The Same Boat. Both of these, imo, focus on two characters. TNW was really about both Rick and Daryl, with slightly more emphasis on Daryl. But I think it was about both of them because in this episode, we saw a reversal. In 6x01, Daryl was advocating finding more people to bring in and Rick didn't want to. Here, we see Daryl saying Rick was right and Rick saying Daryl was right. But it also focused on Daryl staring forlornly out the window, so this was one episode where they showed us his sadness.

Similarly, in The Same Boat, I think the episode was about both Maggie and Carol, but with more emphasis on Carol of the two. Also interesting to note that both episodes had a lot of Beth parallels.

In S7, we have The Well (Carol episode) and The Cell (Daryl episode), and The Other Side. TOS focused on both Sasha and Rosita, with perhaps more emphasis on Rosita of the two. But it also led directly to Sasha's death, which included about a billion Beth parallels. Just saying.

The First Day of the Rest of Your Life is harder to pin down. It's a "the" title, but I'm not sure who it focuses on in particular. Possibly Maggie because she got the final speech. Possibly Sasha because it was her death episode. It's kinda on it's own because it's so long. So many words. Much longer than just, "the well."

So far in S8, we have The Damned. Again, hard to say who the focus was on in this episode until we see how the rest of these arcs play out. Overall, I'd say Daryl both because of the handcuffs and also because of the brutality we saw from him in this episode. Rick's reaction to his brutality put emphasis on it. But you could also argue the emphasis was on Rick because of Morales. Again, we'll just have to wait and see where it goes.

There are other, smaller patterns in the titles. For one thing, the titles Last Day on Earth, The Day Will Come When You Won't Be, and First Day of the Rest of Your Life are all related. And all of them, I think have to do with the end of Glenn's arc. The beginning of the end, his death, and then a final homage to him in 7x16.

I'm sure there are others as well, but these are the major trends we are seeing. I'd love to hear if anyone else has picked up any other title patterns!

#beth greene #beth greene lives #beth is alive #beth is coming #beth is almost here #td theory #td theories #team delusional #team defiance #bethyl

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