Why do you think there's such a large amount of Swifties that are also zionist?

not a trend I've encountered, personally, so I can't really speak to it. I've mostly noticed heaps of casual antisemitism among the fandom and gaylors in particular.

Fandomization, Fervor, and Fuck Off

A consistent and appalling behavior since October has been the fandomization of the I/P Conflict by anti-Zionists and co. Many of us on this site have documented and talked about such behavior. From my own personal experience it reminded me of certain anime fandoms back in the day when they first emerged. If you weren't talking about it and it wasn't all consuming then you were a problem. I remember conventions being hell as these new fandoms crashed photo shoots and panels that weren't about them. The way in which anti-Zionists crash into other issues to make it about their particular one is reminiscent of these behaviors. As I've stated before, my toes are dipped into a variety of scientific topics as an ecologist. One of them is climate change and for the past few months the conversation within CC spheres has been forcibly turned to I/P and the "wanton destruction of the Palestinian landscape by the evil Jews Zionists. Thereby proving they're not indigenous because no indigenous culture would destroy their landscape." Never mind that the conversation prior to that moment was about pollinator loss due to climate change and habitat loss. This is Fandomization and Fervor. The want to drive your fandom into every single topic and make it everything. But now? We're in the Fuck Off stage, and I don't mean this as us telling anti-Zionists to fuck off, I mean the Fandom is telling people within it to Fuck Off or, at least, shut up. Since the beginning of this conflict there have been moderate voices within the anti-Zionist activist movement. We talk about the outright antisemitic and hate fueled ones here, but don't talk about these persons enough. The Moderates are the ones within these spheres that get pointed to when we bring up antisemitism because they bring nuance to the movement and try to curb the worst of the vitriol. They are the ones that screen capped and held up besides the token "Good Jews". While they didn't necessarily have as much of an impact in the beginning of the conflict due to the lack of numbers and the overwhelming fervor, zealouness, and righteousness of anti-Zionists, they are being noticed now. Many of the spaces I am in that posted incessantly every day and had multitudes of conversations about I/P throughout them have now become relatively silent. There might be a brief conversation over the course of 30 minutes here or there, an article gets posted every few days, and the AJ update is the only daily posting. Now, when larger conversations kick off there is more attention paid to the Moderates and the nuance they bring because it's not rapid fire anymore. People don't have to scroll back through hundreds of messages to find the nuance, it's right there and it's loud and clear. So they're being told to Fuck Off In every space I am in I have seen some variation of "Shut up, every time you talk the conversation ends" told to the Moderates. Why? Because each time they are addressing something that would have radicalized people earlier in the conflict. They are addressing outright hate and/or contradictory messaging. The culmination of which has been talking about the Islamic Republic's recent attack on Israel. I have seen them blatantly call out their activist community for celebrating an attack by a country that stands antithetical to everything its members say they stand for (LGBTQ+ rights, women's rights, political rights, etc...) and jails, tortures, and kills people like them. As such, the Fervor and radicalization of new fandom members can't happen, and I see it angering the people whose entire identity has revolved around the Fandom and the hatred associated with it. The cognitive dissonance that the Moderates invoke in the radicals has resulted in some outright hatred in these communities that I thought was reserved only for us Jews. But now? Now it's clear that the most ardent members of the Fandom are just full of hate. That's it. They don't actually care of Palestinians, they just want to justify their hate and wallow in it.

If you don’t mind, would you explain what exactly it means to be a Zionist, or what Zionism is?

Also, looking at posts here and on news sites I see such pradoxical views, one saying to not support Palestine is to support genocide and the other saying to not support Israel is to be antisemitic. I wonder, and I am going around asking people on different sides of the war, do you believe it is possible to support both the lives of Palestinian people and the lives of Jewish people?

Feel free to ignore this ask or to point out any ignorance on my part. I hope you have some peace in your day/night.

Of course! Thank you for being so kind with your questions! 💙 Sorry that it's a bit "all over the place." There's a LOT to cover, and I'll leave a bunch of links to learn about more details.

To start of, Zionism is (by the google-search definition):

a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.

So basically, being a zionist is supporting zionism or the creation & protection of Israel.

Most Jews are Zionists (sources say between 85-95%) of Jews. Something I want to clarify:

Being a zionist, or supporting Israel, does not mean that we support all decisions of Israeli government, especially not Netanyahu. In fact, most Israelis and Jews don't actually like Netanyahu (which I'll be calling Bibi for short). This doesn't mean we don't want Israel to cease to exist. There's multiple sides to even one side in the main argument.

Now I'm going to tackle your harder points:

Also, looking at posts here and on news sites I see such pradoxical views, one saying to not support Palestine is to support genocide and the other saying to not support Israel is to be antisemitic. I wonder, and I am going around asking people on different sides of the war, do you believe it is possible to support both the lives of Palestinian people and the lives of Jewish people?

First of all, I don't support the "Free Palestine" movement for multiple reasons, but get this straight: It's not because I hate the people, it's because the leaders of it are people I don't agree with.

I definitely don't want you to think I think all people in Gaza/'Palestinians' should die. I do NOT think that. But first of all, let me talk about the whole issue of "not supporting Palestine is to support genocide".

It's not genocide, simple as that.

here's the definition of genocide:

the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

In my opinion, you should replace "killing" with "murdering", but you get the gist.

Israel attacking the Gaza Strip right now is not in order to kill the civilians there, it's to retrieve the hostages (hostages, not prisoners of war) and end HAMAS (a globally-recognized terrorist organization. I'll link some pictures of their website at the end), so they can't launch another deathly attack on Israel or Jews as a whole (not to mention HAMAS's other problems with LGBTQ+ and such).

Therefore, not genocide. I do not want the people in Gaza dead, but I do not support Palestine as they want it- Israel gone and a new country. Does that mean I support genocide? That's your own decision to make.

Something I want to briefly touch upon is historical inaccuracy & numbers before we move on to "not supporting Israel is antisemitic".

Like I said, HAMAS is a terrorist organization. Here's a few examples of a website used to show their propaganda & agendas.

This is even from a while back (1-2 weeks)! It's messed up, especially if you take time to read the Stages.

Also, I do not believe that all Palestinians and Palestine-supporters support Hamas, like not every Israeli and Jew support every decision of the Israeli Government. But still, people idolize HAMAS and that is a problem.

People say, "end the 75 (or 76) year occupation!!!!11!!!!!1!!!!" I won't get into history, but the Gaza Strip was ruled by Egypt until 1967 (then it was captured by Israel during a war) and Israel completely left it 2005-6. Can't be 75 or 76 years if you haven't been there for so long.

That was just something I wanted to mention. Now, lets move onto "not supporting Israel is antisemitic."

This changes from person to person, I'll admit. A goy (or non-jewish person) can't decide what is or isn't antisemitic, and a jew cannot really do the same to another jew. Saying that Israel shouldn't exist? Yes, it's antisemitic. Israel (Judea, Eretz Yisrael, etc) is the Jews' land, birthright- we are the indigenous people (whoo boy, I could go on a whole other rant here if you want me to.)

Mostly, I'd say it isn't antisemitic. Some people might disagree. I found a good guide on critizing Israel here - it'll be linked in the end if you want to check it out.

IN ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION: yes, it is possible! i value both israeli and Jews AND palestinians lives (this is not when they tell me to kms, of course)

sorry it took me so long to answer this :')

Here are some of the links I recommend:

@freegazafromhamas Quick information, easy to digest (and a very kind person); probably most in support of a palestinian state

@fuck-hamas-go-israel has been running this blog for over 10 years, I believe. Important picture & video evidence and information.

@elder-millennial-of-zion Again, important information.

@shretl this user is especially good for information! They're very educated & I've learned a lot. Honestly, just looking through their posts is educational...

I've also preblogged many things in general on my blog!

other pictures:

Online Sources: (this section is taken from @shretl's post) * https://www.israelhayom.co.il/article/865383 - Hebrew article, Title means "Sad ending to a magnificent history: Only 4 Jews left in Iraq".

What was the Farhud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud

History of the Jewish community in Baghdad https://cojs.org/the_jewish_community_in_baghdad_in_the_eighteenth_century-_zvi_yehuda-_nehardea-_babylonian_jewry_heritage_center-_2003/

What are Pogroms?https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/pogroms?gclid=Cj0KCQiAkeSsBhDUARIsAK3tiedM7DuwIaSQX-kRxvXTgCDxN6-zqeo_DNNFgyanSYGyGOhwu_0vfrkaAg6REALw_wcB

The last Jew of Peki'in, Margalit Zinati https://aish.com/the-last-jew-of-pekiin/

Arab riots of 1930s- https://www.gov.il/en/Departments/General/ben_zvi_30 https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-1936-arab-riots

Israel's history from ancient times & timeline : https://www.travelingisrael.com/timeline-land-israel/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=iiUIWnU-Ofk

Second Temple era - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple_period

Forced conversion of Jews across history- https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt18mvnct.7?seq=4

If something is wrong, please correct me!

Most of the time, I don't bother talking about the hate and harassment I get, because I don't think haters deserve the attention. The person I'm gonna write about definitely doesn't deserve any, but they've started harassing others that I know of, not just me.

So this is basically a warning post for Jewish bloggers and bloggers who are allies to Jews, and a request for anyone who can, to report and block this person (if you want to warn other bloggers, then please consider a reblog, too). @staff, This is also for you, proof of a pattern of harassment and abuse. Please do something and protect your Jewish users and their allies.

They first commented here, denying the antisemitism of Hamas, with the url @grizzlyismyspiritanimal and they seem to change their url quite frequently. For now it's @fancowboy but expect that to change again. Since IDK if Tumblr will let the mention (@'ing their url) hyperlink to their blog, here's how you can check out what their current url is, so you can report and block them. Go to this post where they're tagged as @grizzlyismyspiritanimal and hover your mouse over their url, you'll see their blog pop up no matter what new url they changed to. Here's a screenshot of what that looks like:

Here's their first comment on my post, along with my reply. Tumblr arranges these comments with the oldest at the bottom, click to see the image better:

Of course they never provided a link sourcing their claim, instead they provided a link to an op ed, which was not written by anyone affiliated with Hamas. This link did not support their claim that "Hamas specifically stated," but that didn't stop them from ignoring the fact that they couldn't prove their claim. Next, they repeated an already refuted antisemitic conspiracy theory (and I linked them to a refuting source, which they just ignored), while using strawmen arguments (attacking statements I didn't make). Obviously, none of this addresses the point actually made in the post they were commenting on.

When I called them out on the antisemitism of their whole narrative, they pulled the "I can't be antisemitic, because I'm Jewish" line of defense, while also bragging in the same comment about not going the easy route by doing that:

I no longer believe people who say antisemitic things, and then use this defense, after several have been proven to have lied about being Jewish, but more importantly, and this is the point I made to @fancowboy, Jews are not immune to internalizing antisemitism, and repeating antisemitic narratives. But I was curious whether there was any sign of this person having any sense of a significant Jewish identity on their blog. When I went on there, one of the first posts I came acorss was an antisemitic one, claiming that Jews have stolen the Star of David from the Muslims... I know there are a lot of anti-Zionist Jews out there, and that many of them are very capable of saying antisemitic things, but I don't think even they would endorse this false claim.

What's ironic is that the post shares a screenshot from Wikipedia, which explicitly mentions that this Muslim kingdom that existed in the 13th century AD (roughly 700 years ago), adopted the six-pointed star, due to the Muslim belief that it was a symbol on the ring ("seal") of King Solomon, a Jewish king who lived about 3,000 years ago. In other words, this post literally points out that Muslims borrowed this symbol from Jews, not the other way around. And just for historical interest, the first archeological find of Jews using the Star of David is dated to the 6th century BC (around 2,600 years ago).

I pointed out to @grizzlyismyspiritanimal / @fancowboy that I no longer believe they're Jewish, because I don't believe any Jew would reblog this antisemitic lie. In response, not long after, this "I'm not a coward" and "you would've blocked me (aka fanatic)" person blocked me. Instead of addressing what I said, or taking responsibility for their wrongdoing, and deleting this antisemitic post. Our exchange started on Jan 5 IIRC, this post was reblogged by them on Jan 4, and as of Jan 25 it is still on their blog, as you can see here (post and current date highlighted in this screenshot):

A minute after they blocked me from the above blog, they commented on my pinned post with links to my fandom content from another blog, @verygardenerland and this comment made it clear that it was the same person. I made a mistake, I wanted my fandom space free from antisemitic harassment, so I deleted that comment, which means I don't have that piece of evidence that it's the same person, but I do have another bit of proof. Remember how this person claimed to be Jewish? This is how they presented it:

(again, using a strawmen, I never said all Muslims are terrorists, and never would, because it's simply not true, and if anyone made that claim to me, I would be correcting them)

Well, this is the VERY similar way @verygardenerland talked about their supposed Jewish identity, in a post they made solely to harass and DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender) me:

Jews were almost completely ethnically cleansed from Muslim majority countries, so the likelihood of a random online stranger being a Jew from a Muslim country is generally incredibly low to almost non-existent, and two who just so happen to both harass me on my blog one minute apart is probably less statistically likely than winning the lottery.

It's poetic irony that the one comment the above post got from another blogger, is someone else also calling this person out on the antisemitism of what they're saying:

Gotta love the bonus misogyny with "bitch."

I'm also going to offer you this following antisemitic comment (which distorts the Holocaust, and refers to Jews insultingly as "the chosen ones"), which I also don't believe any person with an actual Jewish identity would make:

And here's also one of the last comments this person made from @fancowboy before blocking me on that blog and continuing from @verygardenerland. Just notice how we have the same antisemitic abuse themes from both of these blogs:

Once more, extra touch of misogyny with "that much of a pussy."

(I have to address the white phosphorus claim. There are 2 ways of using it in battle, one legal, the other's not. Israel stated that when using it, that's only in the legal way. There is no record to show the contrary. People just exploit the fact it's used, to pretend it's automatically illegal. But I accept this is an antisemitic libel against the Jewish state, that sadly some Jews might repeat. The rest is what makes me think this person isn't Jewish)

@verygardenerland noticed I write fandom meta, and harassed me on these posts. Here's one example:

Then they searched related tag/s, and proceeded to harass me by calling me names in comments they left on random posts from other fandom members. These are posts that had nothing to do with me. One of the people on whose post they were calling me a Nazi is someone I have never even spoken to. The OP deleted the harassing comment, but this time I did get a screenshot before that, so here it is, as an example:

Now, on top of all of the above, @verygardenerland also started stalking my main blog at the same time they made their first comment from this url, as well as my two back up blogs. One's last post was on Mar 2022, the other's on Apr 2021, so it's completely pointless to follow them, other than as an intimidation tactic:

And they sent me anon hate. The thing is, they made it explicitly clear through what they said and the language they used, that it's them. They sent more than one message, but the one I'll attach here was obviously meant to freak me out the most, because it falsely starts out as a fandom ask, and then transitions into abusive language, as well as telling me there's more blogs they're stalking me from, basically making it clear that even if I block this url, I'll still not be safe from their stalking and abuse:

From a certain point on, I told them that whenever they make a comment to me, all I'll do is just remind them repeatedly that they're an antisemite, which is exactly what I've kept to. That's when I even bothered to respond. I postponed blocking their second blog, 'coz I wanted to put this post together first. Now I'm done with them.

To wrap this up, here are some final screenshots of their antisemitic abuse, how they obsessively comment on my posts, or posts that in their mind are related to me, and how they have started directly addressing random people who are commenting on my posts, telling them not to talk to "it," meaning they're also using de-humanizing language when referring to me, and of course once more employing the DARVO tactic by accusing me of that which they're guilty of:

My activity feed yesterday:

And not just yesterday. Love the bonus hateful language towards those who are disabled...

And this is just one of their comments on a post simply mourning the death of Israeli soldiers, and putting it in the context of multi-generational Jewish trauma:

To summarize again, please:

report and block this person

reblog this post if you feel comfortable to, in order to warn others

@staff please do something to stop the abuse. Thank you in advance!

I hadn't seen much, if any, antisemitism on my dash. I'd only seen you talking about it. But then I came across a post about an actor who is making "zionism is sexy" stickers and OH BOY. The notes on that post are full of antisemitism. 🙃

"Well of course he's a zionist, he's Jewish" being the most common sentiment. Yikes.

I can't say I fully understand the ins and outs of this conflict (which is why I've stayed away from talking about it on my own blog), but statements like that seem pretty antisemitic to me.

GOD YEAH THAT POST. Literally any post about Jewish celebrities has been absolutely vile.

I'm glad you haven't seen much otherwise; I've been unfollowing people left and right for weeks now, especially a lot of Native mutuals that I really did trust and respect before they started spewing antisemitic bullshit. It's just been really heartbreaking and frankly scary, especially since I have plans to convert eventually (when I'm able; being housebound and poor in the rural US sucks lmao) and now I'm faced with how many people would reject me from my own communities for that.

I don't really have the best understanding of the conflict either, because it is just incredibly complex, but I know that I strongly relate to Jewish struggles and experiences as an indigenous person and this flood of antisemitic hate and talk of "Zionist" conspiracies is absolutely unacceptable. We can support Palestinians in their battle for safety and rights in the home without denying Israeli people and Jews the same thing. We can hold governments accountable for their crimes without holding the citizens and diasporic communities responsible too. The fact that we can understand that with American citizens, with Russian citizens, with the citizens of any other country but we suddenly forget it when talking about Israel is incredibly suspicious to me personally.

Prefacing this by saying I'm not an antisemite, I'm just a troll.

If anti-zionism is (BY THE RECENT HOUSE RULING) antisemitism, and antisemitism is the "crime" being "punished" so to speak. The operative term here becomes "semite." Which refers to any people who speak a semitic language-- i.e. Jews and Arabs¹

This isn't the first time the federal government has used vague language as a catch all, or that presumably specific terms have been made vague. The 2nd amendment famously allows the public (a "well regulated" militia) to keep and bear arms as necessary to the security of the free state². Which, by common conception, implies the right to use the same weaponry as the military. Or at least the same weaponry as the military at the time of writing. (hence the numerous greentexts about deffending one's home with smoothbore pistols and cannons loaded with grapeshot, "As the founding fathers intended.")

This is, while played for comedy and usually unserious, an example of malicious compliance. Doing something that is technically within the rules that, by all means, defeats the purpose of having them and/or breaks the system that upholds them. It's a valid form of protest for the most part. Famously, the sit-ins of the civil rights era were used as a form of non-violent protest against racial segregation and the Jim Crow laws that allowed it. The sit-ins were the very definition of malicious compliance, and it worked.

Of course, those who make the rules are then forced to pick one of two options that end the same way. Governing bodies can very easily tighten the rules to prevent malicious compliance, thus starting down a slippery slope of freedom restrictions until the rule breaks the system or the system breaks the rule. The other option is to repeal the rule to preserve the system. This is the best way to prevent the sort of Buggs Bunny escalation that Americans are known for.

As a survivor of the new-millennium interwebs, I pass a warning to ye young'uns, troublemakers, and governing bodies alike: A Troll's favorite food is vague language.

If you've read this far and followed along, I thank you kindly. Chances are some of you have already connected the dots, and I thank those of you who have once more. You are shining examples of reading comprehension of which the internet is always in short supply.

For the sake of those doomscrolling at 3am or perhaps those that lack the required history to understand the implications, do not fret, here's my point:

In the opening of this post, I speculated that antisemitism is the operative term of the House's recently infamous provision. They can't outlaw anti-zionism outright, it adds clarity to a situation that the powers that be wish to keep muddy. I also defined antisemitism. At its core, its a bias against people and groups thereof who speak semitic languages. In short, Jews and Arabs.

By definition, antisemitism is bias against those who speak/write arabic! Can you guess who does a whole lot of both? That's right! Palestinians! Can you guess what vague language acts as the lynchpin for the new provision, and as such has become more potent? That's right! Antisemitism!

Therefore by the powers that be, the same rules that prevent anti-zionist rhetoric also prevent anti-hamas and anti-gazan rhetoric. Because it's all antisemitic

That means that sure, while you can't protest against zionism without being prosecuted, you also can't be prosecuted for protesting for palestine.

For the trolls, this little loophole can be stretched to the moon and back again if you'd like. Name an arabic-speaking figure, group, organization, or country. I'm not saying you should, but you can, you know. Just a little trolling.

References:

1) Oxford Language.

2) 2nd Amendment, The United States Constitution.

Points against Zionism: Moral vs Pragmatic Arguments

The Israeli framing of their atrocities is often as a sort of tough pragmatic decision: Maybe it's ugly, but they have no choice. It needs to be done

From that starting position, some ppl then work themselves into sadism & dehumanization to ease the cognitive dissonance of hurting people to do so, telling themselves they are not hurting people, but monsters who deserve it, but not everyone goes so far. There's enough people who say they don't like the pictures, they don't like Netanyahu, but it's needed to protect their people.

Often the counterargument is done in a kantian, moralistic fashion: (No end could possibly justify these means) coulpled with moral shaming (if you support these evil means, you're a bad person)

However, this is useless.

Zionists are indoctrinated to be paranoid & think all non-jews intrinsically want to kill them.

They're in self-preservation mode:If someone is coming at you with a knife and it's you or them, and you kill them in self-defense, most ppl will say that was justified: It was you or them, you are not obligated to die. From the zionists' pov, they are being asked to just die or at least take a big risk.

Let's notice that this isn't unique to them: Many ppl say that they would kill to protect their family. Few would say that if it's between their family or a stranger they pick the stranger.

So the moral shaming doesn't work: It sounds like being shamed for not obediently dying.

The survival instinct is one of the most powerful drives in the human psyche, which is why politicians love to trigger it & condition ppl so as to make it more easy to trigger.

It's kind of evil genius.

This belief is often planted at toddler age so it's pre-rational and triggers an indistnct child-like emotional response that can be hard to dislodge... at least by discourse.

There are so many videos of ppl who instantly quit zionism after just witnessing a Palestinian being normal & nice. Though even those mention having a conditioned fear response - just that when they did, the murder they expected did not occur, proving the falsehood at once.

This is also probably also where you get these "everything is antisemitic" discourse things that, idk, get bent out of shape over goblincore aesthetic, cosplays or cartoon witches, rather resembling a conspiracy theorist looking for evidence of illuminati in a music video or otherwise seeming to look for confirmation of a pre-determined, feared outcome, than any other anti-discrimination awareness that would be concerned with manifest, statistically measurable unfair treatment, harassment or stereotypic portrayal of real people. (which of course does without doubt actually happen to jewish ppl at times)

It's not a rational fear, & it's infuriating to see the faction with the bombs talking of being scared, but while they are scared they can't rly absorb information, neither empathy or nor logic based arguments. Scared ppl get worse at both.

Now, on the other hand the response cannot be to coddle the fear or treat is as rational, because that gives it leverage, plays along with bullshit & concedes their assumptions

What to do instead:

Counter pragmatic arguments on a pragmatic level.

To see what I mean, look no further than this recently publicized discussion with Biden, where he is telling them to "maybe be nice pretty please", & Netanyahu responded that the USA used carpet bombing of German cities and nuclear bombs to win WWII.

On the american side this really shows the absurdity of the foreign policy blob & the US playing world police when it's the biggest rulebreaker. If they don't follow the rules, why should weaker countries?

But on the Israeli side, it's a pragmatic argument: "Ugly acts solve uglier problems. Why don't you let us do what needs to be done? YOU did." this is why biden's weaksauce beseechments do nothing (that, & his refusal to use actual leverage), from their pov he's asking them to forgo the thing that works to look good, even though biden's country didn't in the same situation, he looks like a hypocrite.

But the big problem here, on a pragmatic level, is that it assumes carpet bombing & nukes are why WWII was won (and not because the fascists picked fights with all their neighbors at once, which was just never gonna work)

That is not true. The idea of "strategic bombing" is based on faulty psychology. Surveys done after the war show that carpet bombing did NOT lower axis morale (but rather gave the Nazis fuel for propaganda, in which they claimed the allies were the genocidal ones. they kinda pioneered that DARVO thing that Israel is also fond of) & the nuke was dropped when Japan had already pretty much lost the war.

The allies really should've known that seeing has Hitler's attack on civilians in London did not lower British morale either, they just kept-calm-&-carry-on'd right through it. Though they attributed it to their superior Britishness & thought the enemy would be different.

Wether or not carpet bombing civilians is moral doesn't matter here, because it's INEFFECTIVE.

the means will NOT archieve the ends, justified or otherwise.

It's the same thing as with torture. It doesn't make ppl divulge infor or change their allegiance, ppl end up making shit up to tell the torturers what they wanna hear

(Though, as in all these things, the most efficient ppl at convincing are gonna be the in-group. If an outsider speaks, they're easily dismissed as "just another one of THEM" but an "us" is seen as a person & given the benefit of the doubt, their opinion is seen as mattering.

The best way to fight sexism is men not laughing at sexist jokes, the best way to fight racism is white ppl acting embarassed of racist relatives (that, and systemic reforms, but I'm talking the individual layer here. The systemic remedy to zionism is probably international pressure. I think systemic & individual measures are best combined because you can't neglect either half, but that's a different essay)

In that sense I'm grateful to all those Jewish protesters.)

I don't mean to sound agressive, I genuinely want to learn and understand. In a recent post you shared, it said that this showed that a bunch of people "had a sleeper antisemite agent and it got activated", and the next person added "I'm not talking about people who want to help Palestinians or people who criticize the Israeli government. (...) What is not normal about this situation is Jewish people all over the world getting harassed, threatened and attacked." So I completely agree with the second statement. Attacking Jewish people because of this war is dumb, goes against "defending innocent people". But from my perspective (which I will admit is very limited, I am a non-Jewish french person) it looks like most people are not critizising Jewish people as a whole, but the Israeli government specifically? Of course, there are idiots that are attacking Jewish people around the world, which is terrible, but it definetely doesn't feel like "87% of the world" to me. I do understand that antisemitism is real, and people pretend it doesn't exist and "has been solved" when like... many of the contenders for president here in France were openly antisemites. So yes, antisemitism is real, it's terrible, and it's usually hidden under the rug by "well meaning people". But is critizising the irsaeli government, and how it is handling this war, not what the second poster was talking about? Like, I feel there is a difference between "I don't like how the israeli government is treating palestinians" and "I don't like Jewish people". How is "I don't like how the israeli government is treating palestinians" inherently antisemite? Anyway, I know you're not here to educate anyone, sorry if this message is too long and annoying. I just really want to understand the perspectives of everyone involved in this, beyond the safe "I'm far away and it's easy to judge from here" stand.

hi anon, thank you so much for approaching this with understanding and good intentions. i'm at work right now, so i can't find the post you're talking about right now and read it again

criticizing the israeli government is not antisemitic, but a lot of the people are starting to slide into hating israel as a whole, and tying the citizens of israel to its government. to me, there is no hating israel as a whole that isn't antisemitic. you can't call for the destruction of a country without harming its citizens. there's a post circling, from a person who's not even from israel, about how removing the current government is not the solution, and that not even the israeli left is interested in the well being of palestinians. this post is absurd to me. not even israeli citizens are aware of every single thing the government is doing, so an outsider saying even our left is completely useless? and saying the solution is to dismantle the government (as a system) as a whole, without giving a shit about what happens to the israeli jews? it's just a fancy way of telling us to die

to what you said "it looks like people are not criticizing the jewish people as a whole" from october 7th, the second worst massacre of jews since the holocaust, i've read:

go back to your countries

to back to your penthouses in NY

every bomb launched at you is deserved and more

tumblr is hiding pro-pali posts bc the owner is jewish

saying everything is controled by the jews

calling us white colonizers

calling most if not all jews zionists on the spot

i personally gotten an anon asking me if i'm a zionist or "just living here"

holding jews both outside and inside of israel responsible for the actions of the government

and that's including murdering jews throughout the world, burning synagogues, sparying doors and graves of jews with swastikas, killing jewish college students, and many more hate crimes.

so yeah, it does feel like 87% of the world to me. i'm still losing followers talking about antisemitism. i have friends outside of israel who are worried about their safety, or had their families harmed

so no, criticizing the government is not antisemitic, but a lot of people have used it as an excuse to hate the citizens.

if you have more questions, or if you wanna send a dm (i promise i don't bite), feel free

I was very happy to see that Pedro posted about Doctors Without Borders on his Instagram. And perhaps it was a weird synchronicity, but I was also happy to see that he did not attend Sarah's event in person, but he still sent a video. I am sure it's hard to be close friends and have strong opposing views. I love Sarah and was sad to see that she so immediately pro Zionism and signed a letter thanking Biden. I think there is a lot of misinformation and chaos on both sides..... young westerners supporting Hamas (which is literally like supporting ISIS or Bin Laden), or ripping Israeli hostages pictures off the streets of NYC (those people might be more privileged than Palestinians yet they are still human beings suffering and dying becuase of terrorism) or saying 'From the river to the sea' which is a call for the erasure of Israel. I am definitely PRO Palestine in the sense that I think that they have been occupied, colonized and abused from 1948 onwards and today's carnage has NO excuse, none. At the same time, I support Jewish people and stand STRONGLY against antisemitism. Yet antisemitism DOES NOT EQUATE anti zionism. It's a complex issue and a lot of madness is coming out of the social media frenzy of quick action and little context. Having said all of that, it warmed my heart to see Pedro take a stance. That post is all he had to do to convince me that he talks the talks and walks the walk - and even if he is an ultra famous, ultra wealthy actor, he is definitely caught in complex interrelations with colleagues, friends and bosses who are staunch Zionists. You can't escape that if you work in Hollywood. So his gesture was measured, respectful and brave. Go Pedro <3

I don’t agree with some stuff you said, like saying « from the river to the sea » is a call for erasure of Israel is just untrue. The liberation and freedom of a people should not threaten another people, that’s just projection (again).

But other than that yeah I think it goes without saying, people who stand with Palestine also stand AGAINST antisemitism, our Jewish brothers and sisters that are not zionists are on the right side of history and deserve to be safe like everyone else. Of course some antisemites are gonna take advantage of the Palestinian cause to spread their hate, but we don’t agree or stand with them period.

About Pedro, his gesture was only measured in my opinion, not brave at all. Some of his peers, who are as famous as him, have done more even if they’re not usually necessarily vocal. And they’re still famous rich and working.

No hate for him though

EDIT : he has spoken out about it since then and has shared multiple stories to spread awareness