Googling a keyword on a DNI and learning about a new type of discourse is always a strange experience, especially when it's effectively transmedicalism

Understanding the difference between systemic oppression and social stigma: Why endogenic systems aren't oppressed for being plural, and why that doesn't mean that their struggles are unimportant

Time for the newest syscourse topic, one that I’ve actually been thinking about quite a bit lately. I had a conversation with my very pro-endo friend about it a while back, and it caused me to realize that the entire issue is really that we don’t understand the distinction between oppression and social stigma, and why exactly endogenic plurals are stigmatized, but not oppressed. And why this doesn’t mean that struggles that they do face are “invalid” (boy, do I hate that whole concept. I hate the whole valid thing. It doesn’t do anything any justice.) 

To start off with, it's important to clarify each of these terms. Oppression refers to the systematic mistreatment, subjugation, and denial of rights by those in power against a specific group. On the other hand, social stigma involves societal disapproval or mistreatment directed at individuals who possess certain characteristics or identities. While the two concepts may intersect, they are not synonymous. 

Endogenic plurals, despite facing challenges in the form of social stigma, do not experience systemic oppression in the same way as historically marginalized groups. The comparison I drew in my conversation with the previously mentioned friend was to communities like furries and therians, who similarly encounter varying degrees of societal rejection. While they may be subjected to ridicule, bullying, or social ostracization, these experiences are not the same as being actively oppressed by institutions and systemic structures.

I would also like to highlight that the challenges endogenic plurals face are largely only present within the Western context. Outside of that, they not only ‘would be’ but are very easily accepted, sometimes for religious/spiritual reasons. I had someone from the Middle East (not going to specify which country because I don’t know if anyone knows who this is and would prefer to not dox them lol) describe to me that they once thought that they were endogenic – they were open to their family and community about this, and were very widely accepted for it. It was seen as creative, and a beautiful thing! But once they discovered that they had formed their system through trauma, and that they had DID, it became different. Suddenly it was something to be shunned – this is largely because it isn’t the system that’s the issue. It isn’t the concept of plurality that is an issue, by and large, it’s the trauma. It’s the fact that this is a disabling condition. It’s the fact that when you have DID, you have a rare mental illness. It’s the fact that you are experiencing trauma responses that are unpalatable to those who don’t understand them. 

That’s far from the only story I’ve heard of that type, and I’ve particularly seen a LOT of Asian systems speaking about acceptance of endogenic plurality vs. rejection of DID in their cultures. This is a very West-centric argument, and also goes to show how narrow of a perspective many of the current larger syscoursers pushing endo oppression as a concept have on the subject of oppression. 

You may say, “But, there’s a potential for systemic oppression and violence against endogenic plurals! We just don’t have enough data, because they’re not “out” yet.” My friend said this! I appreciated the point, because it allowed me to highlight my above argument about endogenic plurality outside of the west and also the fact that historical patterns of systemic oppression and the reasoning for such and the examination of parallels with other marginalized groups and their histories with oppression reveal that such concerns are really just… Not warranted. Genuinely, the struggles that endogenic plurals face are much closer to that of the furry community, or that of the therian community. These groups also have to deal with with societal misunderstandings and negative perceptions. Just as with endogenic plurals, the issues they face stem from a lack of understanding rather than a deliberate effort to oppress. If either of those groups were to be open about their identities, they’d face similar struggles – and they do. It’s not exactly the wisest thing to talk to your boss about being a furry or a therian, and it’s liable to get you some hate/bullying/mistreatment directed towards you at some point. It’s stigma.

While endogenic plurals may experience interpersonal mistreatment and possibly even limited job opportunities due to being open about their identities, these challenges are primarily driven by social stigma and negative perceptions. It's worth noting that any systemic violence or marginalization they encounter often stems from an intersection with already marginalized groups, such as the queer or neurodiverse communities. Sure, many endogenic plurals are queer or otherwise neurodiverse, but that intersection and further the violence directed towards it can’t exist without the existence of those other identities. A cishet, white, NT and otherwise non-marginalized endogenic plural isn’t oppressed. A trans, ND, POC who is an endogenic plural is, but not because of their plurality, though it does create a different (and notable) intersection with a few of these aspects. 

It's really important to recognize that conflating social stigma with systemic oppression oversimplifies the experiences of truly systemically oppressed groups, while at the same time not even doing any justice to the issues endogenic plurals themselves DO face. If we can just… Understand that these are two very separate issues, the distinct challenges that endogenic plurals DO face can be more accurately and effectively addressed and advocated for. If we can just ACKNOWLEDGE this, that’s already contributing to a broader, more informed discourse that fosters so much more inclusivity and empathy than what we’ve got right now.

The more I try to get involved in the tumblr NPD community, the more obvious it becomes that we have a serious problem. This community is extremely hostile toward endogenic systems. Now, I'm well aware that many of you want this to be the case, and see no problem with it. This post is for you.

If your justification for hating and excluding endogenics is because "science says it's not possible", you're wrong. Here is a list of professionals acknowledging the existence of endogenic and/or nondisordered systems. Here is a list of studies into non-traumagenic causes of plurality. It's true that CDDs have a high correlation with childhood trauma, and I honestly believe that the vast majority of the time trauma is the cause of them. However, correlation does not equal causation, and belief is not the same as fact. I cannot, in good faith, argue that it's impossible for endogenic systems to exist. For one thing, the vast majority of endogenic systems aren't claiming to have a CDD at all. And the ones who do typically blame trauma for the CDD itself, they simply believe that their plurality has a different cause.

If your justification for hating and excluding endogenics is that "they do [insert bad behavior here]", you're a hypocrite. That's the same logic narcissistic abuse believers use against us. It's true that there are some endogenic systems who behave badly, just as it's true that there are some narcissists who behave badly. However, you don't get to brand an entire group as acceptable targets of ostracization and harassment just because some members of that group are awful. It's not okay when they do it to us, and it's not okay for us to turn around and to it to anyone else. Respectability politics will not save us.

I'm not saying that I don't understand why this community is hostile to endogenics, because I do. Both the CDD community and the NPD community have latched onto the explanation of "I'm like this because of trauma and therefore your attacks on me are invalid", so it makes sense that this would morph into hostility toward, and exclusion of, anyone claiming to have the same or a similar experience for any non-trauma reason. It feels like an attack on your own validity, but it isn't. Your brain works the way it does, and people need to accept and accommodate that no matter the cause.

That being said, being understandable doesn't make a behavior acceptable. We will never defeat ableism by throwing people we don't like to the wolves. We will never be able to tear down any system of oppression by casting out anyone who fails to meet an arbitrary standard of validity. There is not any one of us that will be free until every single one of us is free.

That includes endogenic systems. It includes people whose NPD didn't come from trauma. It includes every single mentally ill and neurodivergent person who fails to fit the mold created by a psychiatric system that would sooner grind us under its heel than allow us to have true self-determination and autonomy. Endogenic systems, especially those with NPD, deserve better.

We're shooting ourselves in the foot if we can't do right by them, so get your shit together

You agreed it's two different issues so another question. Do white singlets get a pass because they feel connected to a nonwhite name and they get to use it or do alters just get a pass with connections? Do you think everyone should get to use any name they want no matter what or is it just systems who are an exception? /Gen trying to understand what's all going on

EDIT: WE HAVE HAD THIS PROPERLY EXPLAINED TO US. OUR OPINION HAS CHANGED.

My personal belief is that a name is just a sound that people make to identify you. So I 'personally' don't understand the issue. But I am not someone who has experiencd oppression based on my name (beyond when we changed it to be gender neutral) so I am trying not to speak over those that have. At the same time though, as I have said in another post, I do think some of this issue is fighting for the sake of fighting. But Systems are different either way.

Singlets who choose their name are going to introduce themselves as that name. They're going to fill out paperwork with that name. They're going to apply for jobs with that name. So I can completely see why that would be an issue for POC. Because that is a public declaration of identity. I understand that to a degree. But even on this case so many names are derived from other languages we now accept as 'english/white' so where do we even draw the line with this? Again I am asking for real./gen

But with Systems? The chances of them ever using that name outside of closed communities online, wherein no one knows for SURE what their race is are very slim. I think it's important to look at the impact, because as far as myself and most people I have spoke to see it- this doesn't affect ANYONE but the System itself. A white System is still likely to introduce themselves as their white, bodily name. Real Systems aren't out here walking up to new people going "Hi I'm Naruto!" Or "Hey I'm Spawn.", you know what I mean? (Outside the Endogenic Community, I mean. They'll say anything.) And the people they do tell are aware of Systemhood and it's doubtful they'd think that person was part of that community.

This argument feels like it falls along the same lines as 'you can't have Alters from problematic sources!' It's the same kind of attempt to control how a System forms and functions. So let me just say this: REGARDLESS of your view on this topic, IT'S NOT UP TO YOU. I understand the position- but this is a mental illness that forms without our consent. The parts of this mental illness are NOT controlled by the System- they are simply a part of it. So it isn't anyone's choice how an Alter feels they look or what name they relate to. You don't get to decide that a System MUST change their Alters. They're people- and it's up to them and how they feel. As long as they're not infringing on your rights (which they aren't), leave them alone.

This is the FINAL ask I will be posting publicly about this topic. I have said all I will say on the topic until someone can present me with a reason that has valid points and evidence of impact? I will continue to believe that an Alter forms how they form and it's not okay to ask them to change.

I'm keeping this completely off my blog. I'm not in the mood for endo bullshit tonight. I'll answer the question though. Warning, there's gonna be a text wall.

Short answer? Yeah. I am anti-endo. But like, I don't think they're faking, I think they're just misled. Long answer? It's a basic scientific fact that one cannot be plural without the system forming to cope with childhood trauma. The very basis of endogenic systems is that they exist without the entire reason for systems existing.

That said, I don't think endos are lying - I think they are, in fact, systems. However, a major symptom of DID/OSDD is that you don't remember your trauma, or that only certain alters remember it. I know I sure as hell don't know why we're a system, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna go and say "We're an endogenic system because I don't remember any trauma that caused us to become a system!" Many endos say they've been a system as long as they can remember and that they were born a system. This is scientifically impossible, but hey same hat - we've also been a system for as long as we can remember, because DID/OSDD forms in the early childhood stage of development.

More things endos claim make you endogenic are literally just things that happen - alters forming because of just stress or whatever, switching a lot, switching rarely, lots of alters fronting, only a few alters fronting, headspace, no headspace. You name it, an endo has tried to say it's an endo thing, when it's genuinely just a system thing. "My system didn't form because of trauma!" Yes. Yes it did. Trauma not only varies from person to person and situation to situation, but is frequently forgotten. Amnesia around it (and also in general) is a literal symptom of DID/OSDD because your brain is trying to protect you from stuff that was bad enough to fracture your identity before it had the chance to actually form, more or less.

Endo philosophy is also harmful to the plural community in general because a lot of it is general ableist bullshit that basically frames all psychologists as evil, therapy as evil and in general trying to recover as evil, claiming that all that's gonna do is final fusion (which is often framed as "murdering" alters when in reality it's restoring the system to one person - but not all systems do this because they'd rather function as a healthy system as opposed to that, but the ones who do seek out final fusion aren't wrong or bad for doing so). They paint traumagenic systems as evil, horrible people who parade their trauma around like a banner to "oppress" them because we call them out on their harmful (and frankly ableist) rhetoric. They're transphobic, calling traumagenic systems "sysmeds" or "traumascum" because we have the audacity to exist as systems. The transphobia continues though, because they coin mogai-like "identities" like "pillowgenic" (for when your system formed out of comfort) or "naturagenic" (for when you were meant to be a system). (Note: as somebody who identifies with xenogenders, I obviously fully support mogai. I do not support asshole endos who are being transphobic.) They even play on schizophrenia and psychosis, saying that systems are a supernatural phenomena.

They've taken our safe spaces, our terms, our words and they've twisted them into weapons to be used against us. And yet, I can't help but feel bad for them because a lot of them are just systems who were groomed into a certain way of thinking, practically abused into radical inclusivity, thinking they're something that physically can't exist because of literal symptoms of DID.

Anyway, I think I've ranted enough. tl;dr Endos get your heads screwed on straight. You're systems, but there's no way a system can exist without trauma. Endogenic stuff is harmful, ableist and even transphobic.

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