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zalrb · 1 year

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hi, can i join the buffy S7 hate? i could write ESSAYS but i can’t rant at my sister who loves this show and spike, lol. imo, the most annoying thing about spike/spuffy is how the show manipulates the viewer (and buffy) to feel sorry for him. before S6 buffy’s feelings for spike were hate, contempt and pity, and her more positive feelings were basically her ”rewarding” him./1

and buffy-obsessed spike is basically like the trio of incels in S6 but spike’s behaviour is played for laughs or brushed aside or the show blames *buffy*. like, at the start of S7 spike makes a mocking comment about the rape attempt. then buffy finds out he has a soul and *she* has to rehabilitate him and *she* apologises when she understandably gets startled when spike unexpectedly touches her and then the whole ”you were just using me” when buffy tolerated and gave spike way more than he ever deserved. or her speech about how she wasn’t emotionally available even for spike when it’s like, no girl, spike was stalking and abusing and trying to rape you, you didn’t owe him anything. spike/buffy was all-around insulting. or the ”he’s the only one who has my back” when i’m sorry, was i watching the wrong show, because all i saw in S7 was spike being a useless dude in distress. the show increasingly woobified spike because it was easier than him earning things. i mean, just contrast angel/spike in S3/S7: angel more or less rehabilitated himself, unlike spike who put the onus on buffy. when angel was harassed by the first, he was ready to kill himself so he wouldn’t hurt anyone and he was ready to do it *alone*, without telling anyone. unlike spike who *did* kill people and then tried make *buffy* kill him, again leaving the onus on her. and p.s. spike had a lot better chemistry and more interesting interactions and potential with basically every character who wasn’t buffy so i don’t get why they wasted time on that. (and i'm so sorry, it did turn into an essay lol)"

well, that's the thing. buffy just becomes spike's caretaker and his apologist

feeling bad about him feeling bad about hurting her

and he doesn't actually do anything for her except bring up again and again how he got a soul for her, as if that's supposed to mean anything,

and it's not any different from when he was soulless and just told her he loved her like he was supposed to get a prize

so when she tells him that she's not ready for him to go, i'm like WHY, he hasn't done anything! he hasn't even been a comfort to you, in "conversations with dead people" a random vampire is the person you talk to about the things you don't want to admit to your friends

spike's just there like

or like this

or he's not there and it's like

so what does he actually do for you except be the one to tell off your friends when they act OOC and kick you out of the house just so he can say something people can point to to be like, omg he understands her better than anyone!

and this is why i have problems with storylines in which loving a "heroic" or "good" character is treated as a heroic act in of itself (or loving a morally grey character is treated as a dark act in it of itself) because that's not a redemptive quality on its own. and spike isn't redemptive.

people like to bring up his attachment to dawn as an example of him doing good or being good even when he's soulless but that attachment is directly linked to buffy rather than it being about dawn herself

which is why they don't have any scenes together or why he doesn't even ask about her the minute he and buffy become sexual. even when he gets a soul, there's no relationship there because it's not about actually caring about other people, it's about buffy.

AnGeL wAs JuSt GiVeN a sOuL - but like you said, he earns his redemption, the whole point is that he chooses to do good for the sake of good, buffy is a source of inspiration for him absolutely

but she doesn't determine whether or not he does something good.

and i just prefer that.

#bangel #angel x buffy #buffy x angel #buffy the vampire slayer #BTVS

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deeply-unserious-fellow · 30 days

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No okay bcuz actually I DO want to explain my thoughts from this post here because I love analyzing things and I think talking abt Vox's relationships thru the lens of "this is just like Buffy fr fr" could be fun :)

FIRST OFF: VoxVal as Spike & Drusilla. I do not know their ship name and tbh I'm probably never gonna talk about them again so whooooo cares. To state the obvious, in this situation Vox is Spike and Val is Dru. Now, it's been awhile since I've watched Buffy, but from what I remember, Spike & Drusilla really are THE toxic villain couple, in that they're both like. Not very good to or for eachother, all things considered, but goddamnit they love eachother SO MUCH- which really is the generous interpretation of Staticmoth. I'm not gonna go super in depth into the fucking. Is Staticmoth abusive debate rn. Because I have one million other posts that make my stance on that pretty clear I think. But the uh... nicer interpretation of their relationship is very much Spike & Drusilla I think. Like right down to the headcannon of Vox liking how Val's shit eyesight & temper tantrums makes him kind of dependent on him. Again, could be misremembering, but based off of how Spike was w/ Dru while she was weakened(and based off of how he rebounded w/ Harmony of all people 💀), I get the distinct vibe that, despite his frustrations, Spike did like having somebody relying on him the way Dru(and later Harmony) did. Vox def seems like the type of guy that would get a kick out of feeling Needed and Relied On(why else would he literally route the entire Pride rings power grid through himself-), and Valentino is. Well. Valentino. I'm not gonna go over their interaction before Stayed Gone because it makes me ~genuinely uncomfortable~ for reasons I have, once again, gone into in depth before, but suffice it to say that it's definitely in character for Vox to be into Val relying on him like that. Oh also, like somebody pointed out in the reblogs on the original post, the reason Spike & Dru broke up from s3 all the way to their reunion in s5 is that she cheated on him and that's. Yeah that sounds about right.

And second, the Staticradio twins: Spuffy and Spangel. Why the fuck did I call them the Staticradio twins? I don't know I'm tired as shit and just used most of my brain power on the VoxVal segment now get off my back- anyways, these two are actually pretty easy to explain so I'll just get right into it! Most of the similarities between Staticradio and Spuffy can really be summed up in the song Reat In Peace from Buffy's musical episode. One-sided, obsessive crush on someone who you know deep down will probably never reciprocate. You want them to just leave you the fuck alone and stay gone(hahahahahahahahah), but they just. Aren't. Like even the bits about being a dead guy without a heart beat are spot on because Vox is a motherfuckin DEMON who is a ROBOT!!!!!!! Also the Alastor Body Pillow fanon(which IS fanon. It is. I'm sorry to say but that wasn't a thing on the Instagrams y'all-) does line up with the uh. The Buffy sex bot- it does line up with the Buffy sex bot. Anyways moving on to the Spangel section-

"You were my sire man!" - Spike, to Angel, in his introduction episode. I don't remember if this was retconned in season 5(or 6?) to be Dru siring Spike? It might've been. But for the sake of this post lets pretend it wasn't. Angel was basically Spike's mentor for a lot of their time together pre-show. They ran around in their weird little vampire polycule causing problems for everyone and life was good! Then Angel got cursed. Bro got a soul and then ran away for years without a word to anyone. Then, cut to current day, and Spike is hyped to see him right up to the point he realizes Angel has Changed. And from that point onward to two are RIVALS!!!!! Narrative foils, even. And while it isn't exactly the same as Alastor and Vox's history, it's pretty damn similar right!? Al was(presumably) Vox's friend and mentor for YEARS, like to the point of being comfortable taking a picture with him. Then something happens between them, causing a rivalry to form. Throw somewhere in the mix Al's deal & him fucking off for 7 years... it's like the same pieces being put together in a new way to make a different puzzle. Is Rosie Darla in this analogy? Unclear. Val is still Dru though. Do y'all get where I'm coming from? It's far, FAR from the same thing, like there are so many fucking differences and that's just going off of the stuff we DO know(I want to know more god I can't wait for season 2-), but the dynamics ARE similar. They're narrative foils with a deep history w/ eachother where they were probably-definitely friends, something caused them to become RIVALS, and also one of them is cursed and dissappeared for several years-

Whoo boy this got kinda incoherent- Anyways, that brings me to my brand new fun and interesting point: Vox and Spike are kinda similar characters. They're both antagonists who wanna be Big Tough Scary guys so bad, and like. They are. They are big tough AND scary. Sometimes. But for the vast majority of their screen time, their emotions, capacity for love(no matter how twisted their version of love is), and the consequences of that love going wrong continually get the better of them and cause them to look to us, the audience, like silly pathetic wet cats we found on the side of the road. Then they get Weird about it(Vox's "rivalry" w/ Angel and the. Buffy sex bot.) and we remember oh yeah this guy is EVIL! They also both wear long jackets and are bisexual :)

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nevermindirah · 5 months

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fic writer interview! thanks @energievie for tagging me as part of your lovely annual tradition! tagging @sindirimba @gaal-dornick @laviejaguardia @sweetwithheatwriting @mongoose-bite @what-alchemy if any of y'all feel like it <3

How many works do you have on AO3?

What’s your total AO3 word count?

268,965

What are your top 5 fics by kudos?

problem solved it's dissolved (my first BoN fic! my first ever smut!) My Bags Are Packed (I'm Not Ready to Go) (my first Nile & Booker fic!) I See Your Eyes Seek a Distant Shore (my 65k BoN epic with like another 10k+ in footnotes) Imagine Your Dessert Platter (cute lil SamSteve au! ahhhhh I love this fic it's aging so well) Seneca Falls Selma and Stonewall (MCU ensemble / stucky, spiritual predecessor to ISYESADS but full of things that in hindsight I would've written very differently)

Do you respond to comments? Why or why not?

always! I love the back-and-forth of comments, on my fics and others'. what a lovely way to get to know people and talk more about our blorbos and learn things about writing. and as much as I love to get wordy in comments, I also treasure the keysmashes and emojis and respond in heartfelt kind.

What’s the fic you’ve written with the angstiest ending?

yeah I don't really do angst

What’s the fic you’ve written with the happiest ending?

any ending where our main characters are in love and getting a good night's rest

Do you write crossovers?

sometimes! I have several crossovers among my wips but I don't seem to have finished any… yet

Have you ever received hate on a fic?

many many years ago on what in retrospect was an undertagged and poorly considered mess of a Spuffy fic

Do you write smut? If so, what kind?

Sure do >:))))))))))))

Have you ever had a fic stolen?

no thank you!

Have you ever had a fic translated?

no but that would be so cool!

Have you ever co-written a fic before?

yeah! a few times now!

What’s your all-time favorite ship?

Book of Nile <3333333333333

What’s a WIP that you want to finish but don’t think you ever will?

Eartha Grit 😭😭😭😭 drag queen Sam Wilson!!! will the planets ever align so that I can finish this? 😭

What are your writing strengths?

I have them! can't think of specific ones right now

What are your writing weaknesses?

various writing skills etc etc but above all EXECUTIVE FUNCTION DEFICIT MY BELOATHED

What are your thoughts on writing dialogue in other languages in a fic?

I have a thousand-word essay in me about this which I may sit down to write and post eventually. short version, the role of "other" languages in my own day to day speech is significantly different from how most characters in fics would experience "switching" languages, and my thoughts on this in fic are changing as I think more about that and where the line is between that and Gratuitous Foreign Language TM

What was the first fandom you wrote for?

Buffy

What’s a fandom/ship you haven’t written for yet but want to?

a certain crossover that has been in my wips for TWO YEARS now! it would be not only my first time writing this ship but the first time anyone has posted this ship to ao3! unless of course someone beats me to it, in which case I will be very enthusiastically 👀 about theirs while continuing to work on my own.

what ship might this be? Meeka/Vincent from Coming 2 America and Disorder respectively >:)

What’s your favorite fic you’ve written

Not a Gentle Laughter continues to be the fic I go back to for comfort. off the charts Jewish Booker feels with a happy ending because BoN are both in love and in political solidarity, so of course it is, you can't get more me than that.

#fandom friends

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liam-summers · 1 year

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Responding just cause you answered my ask so quick. I agree that Angel and Buffy weren't completely healthy but in terms of comparison, I think just how they treated each other was a pretty positive example of a relationship. (Despite admittedly the unnecessary misunderstandings and jealousy throughout). But nobody's perfect. My only issue with Riley is it seemed like a bit of a power struggle. And then there's the "Buffy doesn't really love you, you're a rebound" thing. And that isn't a good foundation for a relationship unless you both choose each other and I don't think Buffy ever really would have. She was hurting and she isn't very good at choosing coping mechanisms tbh.

On the spuffy bit, all i can say is my biggest flex is I didn't watch season 6 or 7 just because I kinda spoiled myself when I heard they'd be a thing, even tho I kind of always knew they were at some point because I grew up on Buffy. And I doubt I ever will watch it cause I'm a petty Bangel. Childish probably but oh well.

Oh I definitely agree that the way Buffy and Angel treated each other was overall very positive! They had their ups and downs but what relationship doesn’t, right? What’s most important is that it wasn’t abusive and they were always on the same page about their love, respect and support for each other.

I totally get what you’re saying about Riley. I think a lot of the problems in that relationship were due to Riley’s inability to accept that Buffy didn’t need him or love him the way that HE wanted her to. He also had insecurities about her being physically stronger than him and a weird fixation on her relationship with Angel, who he felt he was lesser than, resulting in Buffy having to diminish herself to make him feel more adequate. This is all very problematic and in no way a good foundation for a healthy, long term relationship. I understand that his entire life had changed in a short period of time and this made him question his identity and his place in the world, but that’s a him problem and he made it into a Buffy problem. I also don’t really agree with the narrative that Buffy didn’t love him and treated him like a rebound. For the majority of season 4, Buffy is taking care of and being there for Riley when his world was crashing down around him. She was fiercely protective of him and put him above the other people in her life over and over again, including sending Angel away in “The Yoko Factor”. I also think that she did love him, the best way she knew how. Does that mean that that was enough? No, because they were terrible at communicating and I think they just had vastly different expectations from each other. Riley wanted to be the center of her universe like she was his but Buffy had responsibilities and a higher calling that he was just never gonna be able to understand and she closed parts of herself off from him because of that. So ultimately, it was never gonna last and there were signs of this even at the height of their relationship.

Damn, I don’t think I’ve ever talked about or even thought about Buffy and Riley this much like…ever lol

Hahaha that’s a pretty great flex! Although you’re missing out on some pretty great episodes but I fully support the pettiness 😂

Thanks for the ask 😊

#bangel #briley #ask #jammarammaxxx

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we-pay-for-everything · 2 years

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How do Spike fans still not get the universal truth that Spike got his soul for one selfish reason, to emotionally manipulate Buffy. Or should I say continue to, just in a different way?! He literally says it before he leaves. Oh no, it's just bad writing of my Spikey bear *eye roll* You don't know your fav at all. And btw the SA was NOT AT ALL out of character for Spike. Just stop Spike fans. He is what he is. Own it, or leave 🙄🙄🙄

This ask was in my drafts, so I forgot about it, sorry! Also, I don't remember seasons 5, 6, and 7 enough to answer this ask properly, and my utter lack of interest in Spike and Spuffy don't help... My opinion shouldn't be taken very seriously... Sorry!

I honestly don't know what to say about Spike getting a soul. I personally never thought he wanted to a soul at all, and it just happened. Despite what he told Buffy, I always believed he intended to punish Buffy somehow (give the slayer what was coming to her, or whatever he said) and getting a soul was an unforseen consequence of his pursuit of that goal. But I know that isn't what most people believe, or what Whedon said.

The problem with Spike/Spuffy is that Spike's characterization became a mess. The writers wanted him to be Buffy's love interest and a sort of ally to the Scoobies, so he became too human. They blurred the lines between soulless and ensouled to give Spike a place among the Scoobies, especially in season 6 when he became a love interest. Season 6 is also intended to be the most "realistic" season, so Spike became even more morally gray, in every way a normal abusive boyfriend. For those reasons, I understand why fans were surprised he tried to rape Buffy. It seemed like a line he wouldn't cross, but Spike was still a soulless vampire who ultimately didn't know wrong from right - in theory, he did, but he was ruled by a demon and couldn't feel real empathy for others.

I think the RA was bad writing in many ways. Buffy was feeling vulnerable, but she should've been able to fight off Spike anyway. They wanted to make her a victim, to portray her as a normal woman who wouldn't be able to defend herself. They also used something as serious as rape as an excuse to give the abuser a soul which is gross. On Spike's side, it was also bad writing. Not just because it didn't feel like something he would do despite being soulless - because his characterization had become so ambiguous - but because of his response to it - the fact that he couldn't understand she was saying no. Spike's confusion and almost childlike sadness, because Buffy was rejecting him and he couldn't understand why, did not make sense. It's like the writers wanted to portray him as the victim too, but Spike was not a child who couldn't understand his actions.

I don't even know what to say. Spike's a mess. They fucked up their own vampire lore to keep him on the show which is why people don't even see Spike as a soulless vampire most of the time. But soulless vampires are still capable of showing and feeling a limited range of emotions, as Spike and even Darla did, so the writing for his character was not wholly inconsistent with existing vampire lore (which was in itself rather inconsistent...)

Anyway... Spike trying to rape Buffy makes sense as he was a soulless vampire, but also doesn't make sense considering his behavior up until that point. It's not out of character because he was secretly good and got a soul for Buffy, but it's a bit out of character because it had felt like a line he, and the writers, wouldn't cross, despite all evidence to the contrary...

Ignore my reply, I don't even know what I'm saying. But thanks for the ask!

#btvs #anti spike #anti spuffy #thanks for the ask

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whitewolfofwinterfell · 1 year

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hi, shannen. don't mind all the likes, i'm just doing a steroline rewatch and reading some of your tvd meta. even though i don't ship stelena, it's painfully obvious that they were meant to be the original endgame. but like with swanfire and cs, they switched the love interest out for his ~dark, broody~ counterpart about halfway through. i actually liked delena at first, when they had that whole selfish ~forbidden~ love thing going on. but where i can get into spuffy if i'm in a dark mood, btvs actually portrayed that relationship as abusive, but delena is supposed to be "true love." nope. i don't buy it. damon quite literally sucked the life out of elena and in the end really made me dislike both characters.

Hey Fatima! No problem, like away 😆 I’m not on here as much these days so sometimes don’t even notice when someone spams me with lots of likes, but it’s always appreciated 😄

Yeah, I think it speaks to a wider issue we have within romance as a genre in media that the “bad boy” love interest is often still the most popular one. Clearly there’s something about that trope that appeals to people 🤷🏻‍♀️

I do think it can work in some instances but like you said, it’s all about context and how it’s portrayed. We shouldn’t be portraying abusive relationships as romantic or true love. People will argue that it doesn’t matter because it’s only fiction, but we all know how influential the media is sociologically speaking. What we see in media mirrors our own world and in a lot of instances it shapes our perspectives and beliefs. Therefore, normalising relationships for women where the man constantly oversteps personal boundaries, is controlling, violent and threatening is never good. Hopefully one day we’ll move past this type of relationship being romanticised in media.

#answered #fatimagic

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takaraphoenix · 2 years

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if ur still doing it 9, 5, 12 overall?

Sure am! ^-^ Thanks for playing! But oooh overall is harder than when given a fandom xD"""

5. Favorite canon ship

Mmmmh honestly probably Spuffy? The excitement of rewatching the show and seeing them fall in love all over again every time, the absolute delight I experienced when I (re)discovered the comic continuation and got to see them lovey-dovey.

There are quite some canon ships I love, but I think they just... spark particularly much joy.

9. A ship you will always love to write.

At this point in time, I think KaiShin has proven to be that ship. I've always been able to just come back to it even months or a year after I had last been active, but the amount of love I poured into it this time around really proves that this ship still stays strong with me and is going to stay strong with me for a long time to come.

12. A ship you never cared for before but have grown to like.

Oh! Oh this one is absolutely Clois!!

I have never cared for it, because the writers never cared for it - it's just... there. Most writers, in cartoons and movies, don't care to actually establish them, show why or how they love each other. It's just "these two are together because they're together, you know this so we won't do any heavy lifting for it". That's a recurring problem with comic endgame ships.

But thanks to the Arrowverse, I have actually come to like them a lot! Superman & Lois is the first time I got to see them really love each other, see why and in what ways they love each other, how supportive they are of each other and how much it's a love of equals. I seriously love Clois on that show so much, because this show captures what makes them work and it shows both sides supporting each other.

Just because a ship has decades of history in another medium doesn't mean you can get away with short-handing it. Show the ship, show what makes them special, what makes them work! Show in your version why I should care about this relationship right here, right now. And Superman & Lois does that, so well.

Ship Ask Game

#Spuffy #KaiShin #Clois #Ship Ask Game #Buffy the Vampire Slayer #DCMK #DC Comics #send me asks #Superman & Lois

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buffysummers · 3 years

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Hi! As someone who has watched TVD and BtVS as well, how do your opinions of Damon and Spike differ on a general level? I’ve seen many similarities between the two characters, but notice that you are strongly anti-spuffy and pro-delena and I guess I’m just curious at what makes them so different in your opinion! Love your blog btw!!

Hi! I don't really see a lot of similarities between Damon and Spike. They're both vampires, they both rock a lot of leather, they're both sarcastic. But that can be said of a lot of characters. For some reason, both fandoms are so hung up on this idea of Bangel=Stelena, Delena=Spuffy, Angel=Stefan, and Spike=Damon... simply because Julie Plec is a huge Buffy fan and both shows are about vampires. Does the TVDverse rip off a lot from the Buffyverse? Is it influenced and inspired in a lot of ways? Absolutely, but that does not mean they're the same. Also I want to point out that in no way does Buffy=Elena, and that's a massive distinction considering they are the two women involved with these dynamics.

You can draw comparisons between these four dynamics only on a surface level, in that Bangel are soulmates, and the show makes the claim that Stelena are soulmates. Elena and Damon start off as "enemies" (I use that term loosely because I don't ever really consider them enemies. Stefan sure wanted that, though) and Buffy and Spike start as enemies. Delena and Spuffy both fall into the same romantic trope of enemies-to-lovers (and I use the word "lovers" very loosely in terms of B/S), but so do so many dynamics. That does not automatically mean they're the same. This is a popular trope for a reason.

I watched Buffy way before I watched the Vampire Diaries, and I watched TVD as it was airing. I never saw the comparisons between Delena/Spuffy, although I did notice some between Bangel/Stelena. Bangel is just an incredibly influential couple though so it's not unusual for couples to be influenced by that dynamic, especially concerning vampire fiction.

If you're looking for a more in-depth analysis, my good friend @sulietsexual has written some amazing meta on this topic. I don't really have the energy to just reiterate what she says but I agree with most of - if not all- of her takes on this topic.

#anonymous #answered #just because i'm pro delena does not mean I justify or excuse every little thing that happens between them #or every little thing damon does #I have my own grievances even with ships I love #the problem is that most spuffies don't #despite the very very LOUD and obvious abuse #anti spuffy

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herinsectreflection · 2 years

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What is it you don't like about Spuffy?

For what it's worth, there's a lot of stuff I do like about Spuffy. I think their dynamic is very interesting and brings a lot of great stuff to the show. Some of their scenes together are among my favourite scenes in the show. I think they have great chemistry and their blossoming romance is compelling. I have a (small) Spotify playlist for them. I love Spuffy. But also, sometimes, I hate Spuffy. I contain multitudes. So here I will focus on what I do not like. I just don't want to be pigeonholed as a "Spuffy hater" or whatever because that's not me, and also that's a boring way to interact with media. But also I have opinions and sometimes I do hate Spuffy, so here we go.

Fair warning, this is more a subjective rant that substantial media critique.

My problems with Spuffy lie almost entirely with the way they are used in S7. Actually - scratch that, because S7 contains their best scenes. Their gentle holding in Touched is one of the most romantic moments in the series, and the church scene in Beneath You is a genuinely brilliant bit of television. The problem is that almost nothing between those two moments works for me.

I feel like there's a missing section in Buffy's arc. She goes from being pretty standoffish and conflicted about him in Beneath You (which makes perfect sense to me) to passionately singing his praises by Never Leave Me. I think that "I've seen your penance" line is what breaks me. Because... what penance? What has Spike actually done up until that point? All he's done is be crazy in a basement and hypnotically murder people.

It presents Spike choosing to get a soul as redemption in itself, that alone completely wipes away any negative feelings Buffy might understandably have towards him. This is where the show loses me on this relationship because I wanted a much slower burn, with Buffy gradually growing to trust Spike and open up to him in a new way. What I feel like I got was Buffy accelerating to this passionately pro-Spike position in a few episodes, and then being locked in that mode for the rest of the season. It's an inadequate response to what happened in Seeing Red and Buffy's trauma, and it's just a more boring story for me.

This is related to my wider frustrations with how S7 uses Spike. Spike is one of my favourite characters, and I don't think S7 serves him well at all. Like a lot of stuff in S7, there are the bones of a wonderful arc, taking him from a lost boy broken by his own choices in Beneath You to a "champion" in Chosen. But the meat is entirely lacking. Where is the actual arc? Where are the moments he is challenged, that he makes decisions, that he changes his course? He is made an object in the first half of the season - being crazy, being mind-controlled, being captured. His big moments in the second half involving reclaiming the metaphorical skin of a woman he murdered and then verbally torturing her son - not exactly "champion" material there.

Post-S5, there is a real dearth of Spike having meaningful relationships with anyone that isn't Buffy. People talk a lot about his affection for Dawn, but they have nothing after Bargaining, and Spike is an active hindrance to her and Buffy's relationship in S6. Obviously Joyce is gone. He stops having scenes with Xander, Willow, or Giles like he did in S4. He almost stops existing outside of Spuffy. Which is great if you're really into Spuffy but is frustrating if you want to see Spike form bonds with many different characters. His romance starts to feel like a straightjacket on his character, confining him to one thing rather than expanding his horizons. It reminds me a lot of Angel in S3 - a character constricted, not able to reach their full potential until they move over to AtS.

Honestly, this is all just stuff that I wish was better than stuff that is actually bad. On its own, this would just leave me with a relationship I generally liked and would cut a bit of slack. However, S7 also does its best to make me actively resent Spuffy.

"S7 ruined Buffy's relationships with the Scoobies in order to make Spike look better" is an old take that I think doesn't do justice to the complexity of the situation. I don't like to agree with it because it almost seems boring at this point, and I don't like to take boring perspectives. And yet... I can't help but agree with the general gist, if not the specifics. S7 repeatedly pits Spike against every other character, and then comes down hard on Spike's side. It seems to take Spike's insistence that he is "the only one there for [Buffy]" in S6 (there I think a transparently self-serving narrative) and swallow it wholly unironically. And all I can think is what an awfully unromantic idea. I can't imagine anything worse than a relationship that is oppositional to friends and family. It works for S6, which is meant to be this fascinating toxic codependent mess, and I love it there. But S7 wants to present a better, healthier version of their relationship, and yet this aspect feels obviously unhealthy.

And it's just... so unnecessary. There is absolutely no reason for these relationships to be in competition. There should be space for all of them. And yet the LMPTM/Empty Places debacles destroy Buffy's platonic relationship, and hold up Spike positively in comparison. As someone who is far more invested in Buffy's relationships with Giles, Xander, Willow and Dawn than I am her relationship with Spike, it makes me resent the latter when they should be able to coexist just fine.

Where I disagree with the aforementioned "S7 ruined other relationships to prop up Spuffy" take is that I don't think the writers are trying to do this. I think they're trying to say something about self-reliance and the toxicity of concentrated power. Judging from the way they are written in Chosen, I think S7 thinks it's repaired the broken Scooby bonds. The problem is that it never did - it skipped actually resolving Empty Places and so it ends up feeling like some relationships were torpedoed and others were propped up.

Kind of related sidenote - one of my largest pet peeves about S7 is how it shows Buffy's growing affection for Spike by having her prioritise his health/safety over others. Like Xander will be bleeding out from a huge gut wound or Dawn will have a metal bedframe thrown at her head, and Buffy will rush to Spike who has, like, a cut lip. I get why Spuffy fans would find this cute (and I know they do because I've seen the gifsets) but I find it irritating rather than endearing. Girl he is fine. He's a vampire. Your best friend is dying. Have some priorities.

(Spiral does this the right way round when Buffy ignores Spike's booboos to concentrate on Giles, and actually makes me like Spuffy way more.)

And kind of related to that - the way that LMPTM presents Buffy as being willing to sacrifice Dawn to save the world but Spike is a line she cannot cross*? Absolutely dire, bottom 5 moments in BtVS history. No love interest should come above Dawn, ever. I hate it. LMPTM actually makes me livid like four separate times.

(*Yes I know it's not literally saying that because there is an actual military/tactical reason to not just let Spike be murdered but the episode is structured as if it is saying that and that matters.)

Spuffy is almost an Uncanny Valley ship to me. It contains a lot of tropes and themes that I usually love in romances, and there are times when I absolutely adore them. But there are so many little things that are just a bit off from where I want them that I have moments of not being able to stand them. They're kind of the opposite to Bangel - a ship that just personally doesn't appeal to me but I find basically fine for what it is and never annoys me (in S1-3. I have some issues with the way it's used after this point). They're a ship that is absolutely my kind of thing and I feel like I should like more than I do, but has moments where the way it is written enrages me.

So I end up feeling the same about them both - I see the appeal, I respect each of them for what they are, and I think they are both very important relationships for different times in Buffy's life. But ultimately I find both Spike and Angel more interesting as characters outside of these romances, and I want Buffy to move on from them both.

Finally - and this is something that has nothing to do with the actual show and is entirely down to my own fandom experience - but I think I've just seen too much Spuffy lately. It's very popular here, and I think I followed a lot of pro-Spuffy blogs because honestly I tend to agree with Spuffy shippers on most parts of the show outside of Spike being Buffy's true love or whatever. And you know when something is just fine to you, you don't really have passionate feelings about it but everyone around you is obsessed with it and so you start to be irritated by it? That used to be BBC Sherlock for me. Lately it's been Spuffy. There was just too much of it on my dash and it has made me more negative and petty about the relationship even though there's plenty I love about it. I've had to unfollow a few people - not because they've done anything wrong but just to reduce the proportion of Spuffy on my dash. Honestly, ask me about Spuffy in a few months and I'll probably have a different take because I am 100% being influenced by my own fandom habits here.

#would you believe i already had that meme saved in my phone #spuffy #anti spuffy #<- i don't like using that tag because I'm not 'anti' anything i don't like interacting with the show that way #but if people have blacklisted it because they dont wanna read negative stuff then that's fair enough #btvs #spike #s7

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willowrosenboob · 3 years

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Def Mood on the whole part about bangel's wedding being played for drama and angst but also, for me one of the main reasons is because even with all of their scenes together, their dynamic still felt underwhelming when you take out all the dramatic angst scenes? Like sure ok I will sit through seasons 1 2 and then 3 while I watch them but I always end up liking their conversation more in season 7 which is ironic, given that it feels kind of thrown in, but it's also just one where it felt like both were more or less on an equal footing to me. Buffy was older and a lot more experienced while being a slayer, she didn't take Angel's crap when he was jealous of Spike, but she was also honest about her feelings in general towards him. I guess part of the reason why I liked it is because it didn't feature Angel having more say in what happens to them, but Buffy does for once, since he was the one that broke them up in season 3 and then in "I Will Remember You", and while I don't think it was necessarily bad, since it did end up being a good choice for him to go his own way, it still felt a bit unbalanced to me bc again, Buffy had no real say in it. And I can never really be into the season 5 scene either (when Joyce dies) mainly because it just feels like Buffy is in mourning, and she's trying to cling onto the one thing she previously knew and felt something intensely for.

I know you just made that post to highlight one reason and that's def valid, so I hope this doesn't come off as me correcting you bc I also agree.

don’t worry, I really appreciate that I get a lot of long opinionated asks. it’s a lot of fun to talk about btvs. it is my favourite show after all. and I’m always honoured when people wanna send their opinions to me 💖

as for what you said about bangel, I don’t really have a big problem with the wedding dream other than my own personal distaste towards most weddings, but I get finding them a bit boring together. in my first watch through I barely thought about them at all. and especially in season 3, their relationship can be downright confusing. I used to always forget when they were dating and when they weren’t, cause they were always flip flopping between two extremes.

honestly I’m really surprised you like the chosen scene. it always bothered me how the kiss came out of nowhere, and joss & co were obviously trying to throw both bangel and spuffy shippers a bone without fully committing to one or the other. but honestly I do love how mature buffy is in that scene. and seeing her be so confident in her identity in a way she’s never been before. I actually liked the forever scene a lot. I liked that buffy could take comfort in something familiar, even if just for a while. also it was the only post s3 angel cameo that I didn’t found completely out of character when I first watched btvs.

honestly I always felt like their relationship was very unequal. it’s certainly not equivalent to what a real life relationship between a teenager and a 20 something would look like, but I always felt like angel had more autonomy and choices in the relationship, and there’s lots of evidence that he still viewed her as a kid (remember when he straight up called her a brat? big ole yikes there). it’s not a coincidence that buffy broke it off with angel twice in s3 and spent a lot of time trying to avoid him, but it’s angel who actually gets the last say. and he did it in such a shitty way too. I think he was in the right to break up with her, since their relationship was clearly doomed, and he actually became his own person once he left sunnydale, but he used such self righteous reasoning, and he made buffy’s struggles all about him (like in s2 when Buffy said she wanted a normal life and angel was like “before me” 🤡🤡). it was good for angel, but it was not good for buffy. he told her he wanted her to have a normal relationship, and you know what she did? she immediately rushed into a relationship with a normal guy and got hurt. buffy was way more vulnerable in their relationship than angel was, and I just can’t find myself to care about angel as much as I care about buffy in their dynamic.

honestly I have so much to say about their power dynamic. it’s not even the age gap, it’s just that angel has so much baggage that he dumps on this teenage girl without caring about the emotional consequences for her. also all the ‘old man angel’ jokes on ats just make me sideeye their relationship even more. and this is probably an unpopular opinion, but I feel like angel traumatized buffy way more than spike did. before s6 spike was pretty much just a nuisance that was rarely taken seriously, and even in s6 buffy was already going through some tough shit. he really only made up a small part of her struggles. compared with the stuff with angelus that made buffy feel like loving her was dangerous and synonymous with death. over the years she felt so much shame for her decisions (that were not her fault at all), and her experience with angel overshadowed her relationships in a way that is not romantic at all (I hate how some people romanticize buffy struggling to tell her love interests she loves them, as if it’s because she’s still in love with angel and not because she’s scared that being vulnerable in that way again will only lead to suffering for both her and everyone around her). and obviously a lot of it isn’t his fault, but it unfolds in a way that makes me really fall on buffy’s side.

so yeah. I have Many Thoughts ™ about this, which is weird cause I honestly don’t dislike bangel half of the time. I think a lot of their scenes are cute, and I sometimes get wrapped up in the dramatic romance too. but they had some major problems, and I just really dislike the idea of them ending up together. they’re just such different people at the end of their respective shows, and maybe if they had a fresh start they could make it work, but buffy had so many of her insecurities tied up in her relationship to angel that I just don’t think they could ever get past that. even if buffy herself gets over it, there’s always gonna be that implication that their relationship only leads to pain, and I don’t want that for buffy. that’s why a lot of my preferred buffy ships involve more internal conflict. it leaves room for them to change and grow together, not forcing them to be apart, and having to deal with the wreckage by themselves

#answers #anonymous #anti bangel #ooh boy I hope that tag doesn’t become common for me kshgddhdgd #but thank you. I really do love getting messages like this #it’s just a lot of fun <3

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herinsectreflection · 2 years

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Would you ever consider airing some of your spike thoughts with a warning for those who may not wish to hear them? I feel like you express yourself so well and would love to hear how you parse this very complicated character but obviously understand your reservations x

Yeah, it's not like they're unspeakable or anything. I just don't bring them up unprompted like I do most other thoughts that spring to my mind.

I'll put under a Read More because I'm going to tag this for my own system and if you're the type of person who tracks the Spike tag then you might not enjoy my thoughts (even though I adore Spike). Also if we're mutuals and you're a Spike fan please forgive me I do not mean it personally.

Honestly, the "problems" I have with Spike boil mostly more down to fandom perception than the character in canon (although I also find him to be a big problem in S7 (but not as much as is sometimes made out)). There is a tendency to soften him to the point of painting over his worst qualities, and to present him as this secretly-good uwu softboy who loves very purely and who always has Correct Opinions. Basically, I love Spike as a character but I think he is a much worse person than is often made out by other people who love Spike (this could also apply to nearly every character. this fandom in general could do with relaxing and just enjoying characters being awful sometimes).

I've also found myself growing irritated at the "lesbian Spike/lesbian Spuffy" reading that has grown itself a niche of popularity. I understand this isn't an issue at all outside of a very specific section of Buffy Tumblr, and even there is I think mostly a meme/joke. But it ties into some other things that bug me about the fandom perception of Spike, and as a lesbian it has started to actively grate on me. It's starting to feel very "female-coded Kylo Ren".

Spike is a man and Spuffy is an opposite-gender relationship. It seems trite to say but I saw a tag the other day that referred to faith and spike as "two lesbians in love with buffy" and it made my eye twitch. Because look, Faith is not canonically a lesbian. I can't honestly call her "representation". But there is a plethora of evidence within canon to read her as one. I read her as one. Faith can be a lesbian within canon, because she is a woman whose feelings for another woman can be read as romantic. Spike cannot, because Spike is a man. He cannot be a read as a woman - there is no evidence for him being anything other than a cisgender man (and no, painting his nails does not count). He expresses a lot of toxic masculinity, including sexual violence and blaming women for his own emotions. This behaviour is gendered, and it is a misreading of the text to ignore that aspect of him, and of Spuffy. A little coding and queer resonance in the Spike/Buffy arc does not make it a queer relationship.

Again, this is really just me being grouchy of a minute sector of fandom that is mostly just having fun. And I feel bad, because I have mutuals that I like and respect who I know enjoy this reading, and I do not want to make them feel sad or disrespected. And I know a lot of this is just having fun and not meant in total seriousness, which I respect (honestly, a lot of my posts are not meant in seriousness either, and I could see someone who isn't fond of Fuffy for example get annoyed when I put on my Fuffy goggles and do some silly gay liveblogging).

So when I get annoyed by a common Spike take and need to grumble in a way that I know won't go down well on Spike/Spuffy Tumblr I just vent it into the drafts and watch it bob there like a horrible grouchy turd. Not because I fear retribution - there is nothing especially scary about Spike/Spuffy fans - but because I'd feel bad. As I said, I am a fan of Spike's character and have written a lot of meta about him, and as a general rule my feelings on the show tend to overlap a lot with a lot of Spuffy fans, so I am following/mutuals with a fair few of them. I'd feel I was spiting them.

(Also, when I've made tongue-in-cheek dunks on other characters or ships I occasionally get reblogged by people who actively hate those characters/ships and get involved in the shit-flinging, and that's really not my bag. I make shitposts but I want to analyse Buffy as a literary text first and foremost, that's why I keep my Good Writing pinned).

But hey, in the interest of airing turd-covered laundry - here are some of the cheap shots that I have kept from public consumption because I just can't be bothered to deal with the fall out (and I only partially agree with them myself). Enjoy. Or don't enjoy. It's not meant personally.

(The especially bitter one I thought but didn't make where I do the D.E.N.N.I.S system but with Spuffy because the post doing it with Bangel that went around a few weeks ago very much irritated me and is the exact kind of ship-based squabbling and hypocrisy I can't stand).

#this is a longer answer than I expected to make and ended up mostly bitching #i promise I will get into spike as the Reflection goes on and try to unravel his many many many layers #long story short I have Complicated feelings about spike #spike #btvs #answer #anonymous

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