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hopeymchope · 1 year

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How the Phantom Thieves Became the Bad Guys (OR: A long-ass essay that’s likely to irritate any P5 fans that bother to read it)

PREVIOUSLY: I came to the sad realization that “Joker” — a.k.a. the Persona 5 protagonist, a.k.a. Ren Amamiya — is canonically an asshole.

...so I suppose the logical extension of that is for Joker to become a villain.

And as it turns out, thanks to the third semester of Persona 5 Royal, he can! They WANT you to.

I guess you could say the warning signs were always there.

...of course, alternatively, he might not. Because thankfully, the freedom of player choice still gives you some ways out. But sadly, the “True” (i.e., canonical) ending of the game requires Joker to lead the Phantom Thieves into a very dark place indeed.

Before I delve into why that’s the case, though, I have to give the devs at Atlus credit for creating an ethical scenario that really challenges the player and makes them think. But uh, if you want to feel okay about pursuing the “True Ending,” you definitely shouldn’t think too much. It’s best that you just take the words of the characters at face value and try not to apply real-world morality, okay? Because applying serious thought to the moral debate in the third semester swiftly makes the Phantom Thieves into bigger baddies than some of the palace rulers they’ve previously battled.

Enough of the buildup, however. Let’s back up and dig into the core issue I’m talking about: Takuto Maruki’s quest to make the world a better place.

The Setup

Maruki is a psychological counselor and cognitive researcher as well as a Social Link/Confidant that’s unique to the “Royal” version of the game. He’s also the central figure behind the new storyline that takes place after the ending of the original Persona 5. Said storyline involves Maruki leveraging his work as a psychologist and his studies of the cognitive world + Yaldabaoth’s merging of Mementos with the real world to rewrite reality, creating a new world where people’s innermost wishes are made real. The result? People who lost loved ones in traumatic ways see them now returned to life. People who experienced horrific injuries have had them undone. Rape victims were never violated in the first place. People who lost their dream jobs are suddenly re-employed by them. And so on. This is Maruki’s way of helping people move past being haunted by their traumas and worst experiences; now they can simply never have had such experiences.

Maruki is a very kind-hearted soul from the moment we first meet him. There’s never any doubt that he’s simply trying to make the world a happier, kinder place. And when he first triggers the change into a new timeline, most of the Phantom Thieves are blissfully unaware that the world has been rewritten around them. No less than three of our teammates are reunited with parents who died recently or years ago, although from their perspective, it’s not a “reunion” — it’s just the way things have always been, because those people were never murdered in the first place. Our lead character, Joker, and his rival/ally/antagonist, Akechi, are initially the only ones who remember the old reality. But Joker is soon triggering the rise of conflicting memories within his allies that make them call their new existence into question, even if just slightly...

(It’s cool how well this all aligns with a major area of current psychiatric research. Medical researchers have been seeking a way to target and delete traumatic memories from PTSD sufferers for well over a decade now, moving ever-closer to success. Traumatic memories can be debilitating to a level that millions of sufferers never can recover from their worst experiences even after living many decades more, frequently driving people to suicide; what if you could stop having to relive them? Granted, this wouldn’t literally undo them as it does in Maruki’s solution, but I think the core concept is similar, and that’s pretty neat. Though I have no idea if it was all intended and the devs actually knew about this... )

Concerns?

When I first entered and swiftly understood Maruki’s “new reality” in the game, I immediately theorized TONS of ways in which this could be a very bad thing. And even as I went through the initial phases of his palace/laboratory and slowly learned more about the situation, I continued to come up with new possibilities for why this could be a problem for the world.

...so what’s amazing is how, though a combination of main story dialogue and optional side dialogue, the game successfully addresses EVERY possible problem and erases ANY doubt regarding Maruki’s solution. I assume they were going for a more nuanced moral debate, but in practice wound up in a situation where Maruki’s solution carries only the slightest ambiguity as to its righteousness.

So! Let’s go ahead and break down EVERY concern I had... and how the game either dismisses them or muddies them up quite a bit.

Concern #1: Maybe this reality is fake, and the resurrection people are just illusions/cognitive beings? ANSWER: No, this is not the case. During their first couple of discussions, when Akechi asserts that this reality is phony, Maruki assures him that it’s every bit as real as the one they remember. Moreover, Akechi himself confirms this in his next phone call with you; he investigates the possibility that Wakaba Isshki is either an illusion or cognitive existence, and he confirms that she is indeed the real Wakaba. In fact, his research confirms that she simply didn’t suffer the incident the vehicular accident that previously ended her life... and history was rewritten from there. Per his testimony, this isn’t a false reality at all — it’s an alternate universe or new timeline with its own distinct history. Think of it like we just jumped to a new “world line” in Steins;Gate or something.

The dark side implication of this fact is that it means that if someone WERE to revert reality back to its previous state, that’d be effectively the same as killing them yourself.

Concern #2: Does this mean that people will never undergo loss or pain of any kind? No, negative experiences definitely still exist. Note that Yoshizawa still has endured the loss of a close sister who was killed in a vehicular accident! And the Niijima family is still missing their deceased matriarch. Ann specifically mentions how she was “so sad” when Shiho transferred away to another school. In fact, even Shido is confirmed to still be under arrest for multiple confessed crimes (courtesy of the Phantom Thieves) in this reality! But that last one could be an example of how people who don’t accept this new reality can continue to be trapped in their old struggles. You can see that particular problem in the homeless man in the subway... and even more blatantly in Akechi. He’s very open about his hatred of this new reality and his opinion that he needs his miserable life experiences. He literally defines himself by his trauma, which is... uh, not a good argument. In fact, Akechi is so messed up (and historically has been such a hostile, malevolent force) that his hatred of the new reality feels more like a ringing endorsement than something we should agree with. HOWEVER... it’s worth noting that later on in the “true” story route, Maruki continuously refers to his reality as one where nobody has to suffer. So perhaps the lingering tragedies/problems I’ve mentioned are actually imperfections he intends to iron out? Or it’s possible he’s just simplifying the situation, boiling it down to the essence of his argument even if it’s not strictly the case. UNCLEAR.

Remember: If Akechi thinks something is foolish, it’s probably a very good idea.

Concern #3: Is everyone just going to live incredibly easy lives, then? Everybody gets whatever they wish for now? First: That’s literally impossible. It is inevitable that people’s wishes will conflict with one another. Second: It’s pretty clear that goals/wishes which logically require effort to be actualized will STILL require that effort. Sae Niijima is still said to be working late nights in her job as the district prosecutor ever after the new reality emerges, and Ryuji is literally doing laps around the school EVERY DAY in order to stay in shape and keep his track skills strong. So NO, it’s not like everything just comes on a silver platter without even trying for it. Third: In all other situations beyond ONE thing on January 1st (the first day of this new reality), it seems like the new world isn’t going to just give out every desire you might think of. See, the narrative waters are muddied by the fact that Yoshizawa wishes to not encounter a crowd at the shrine on New Year’s Day... and then, shockingly, it’s mostly empty. But for the rest of the story, this trick is never again employed. In fact, there are situations in which people would OBVIOUSLY be thinking or desiring something other than what they have, but they still aren’t magically granted the perfect life. Just look back at Concern #2: Are you telling me that it never would’ve occurred to Yoshizawa to NOT have such a tragedy in her past? In fact, just rewind back to my second point under this very concern - are you going to tell me that Sae never once wanted to have a lighter workload? And why the helld did Shiho EVER transfer away from Shujin in this new reality, huh? So the most logical conclusions here are either that A) The new reality was still forming (this was its first day after all), finding its footing and still in flux, but immediate fulfillment of random frivolous wishes won’t apply after this point. OR! B) One-off wishes that are specifically spoken aloud might be granted, but otherwise the focus is on granting the SINGLE deepest wish of each person.

Concern #4: Wait, what if some real assholes/terrible people make destructive wishes? In the real world, somebody casually thinks “ugh, I want to die” all over the world at every second, and a few people probably think “Jesus, just blow up the planet” every few minutes, but it’s not like we see random citizens keeling over or the world exploding under Takumi’s new reality. But this is a fictional world, so maybe those kind of thoughts/statements don’t exist there. In which case the fact that Shido is currently still imprisoned for his crimes seems like evidence enough that destructive wishes being granted isn’t going to be a concern. Does anybody really believe that Takumi would hand someone like Kamoshida his greatest (...and probably dark and perverted) wishes? Nah. No fucking way.

Concern #5: If Kamoshida never was at Shujin and never abused/violated anyone, and Madarame was actually an honest and supportive “master” to his apprentice, and Okumura is a caring boss and devoted father... does that mean the Phantom Thieves never existed in this world? Does that erase the special bond our characters built? ANSWER: No, it doesn’t mean that. I already mentioned that Shido is behind bars in this reality just as he is in the preceding one, and this is (as ever) courtesy of the Phantom Thieves. The Phan-Site is still running and putting out polls, and they’re still viewed as heroes to the masses. The Thief squad still possesses the same special connection they always had.

The Stickiest Wicket: Kasumi and/or Sumire

Ultimately, the BIGGEST concern for many people about Maruki’s actions is what’s happened to Yoshizawa. She no longer even knows her real name (Sumire) or who she was born as. She’s living her life entirely as a deceased person (her sister, Kasumi). She fully believes she is that person, and she acts and thinks and feels just like them.

A lot of people find this creepy or weird, but Maruki originally triggered this change without even knowing he was doing so. Furthermore, it happened because that’s what Sumire wished for. It’s her own desire!

But once Maruki realized Maruki’s argument is based in the trauma that got her here. Because, you see... Sumire is responsible for her beloved sister’s untimely death. Not in a direct “I literally killed her” sense, but I mean... Sumire picked a fight with Kasumi in the streets and then ran away upset, Kasumi naturally/obviously pursued to try and calm her down, Kasumi screamed out to Sumire to not run into the street because vehicles were coming, Sumire ignored her and ran into the street, Kasumi catches up to Sumiere JUST enough to shove Sumire out of the way of an oncoming truck... and Kasumi pays for that with her life.

We are made to live out this experience in first-person view, and it’s harrowing. Afterwards, Joker and Maruki make some effort to calm and/or comfort her. Maruki gives her the opportunity to live her true self from then on and help her move forward... or to revert back to Understandably, Sumire can’t comprehend having to live with this deeply traumatic experience in her mind.

No shame.

I come at this storyline from an unusual perspective because a very similar story happened near where I live when I was growing up. The story of a man who accidentally wound up causing his wife’s death while they were on their honeymoon.. it absolutely shook me to my core when I was a young teen. I won’t get into the messy details because I’d prefer to not pass the horror of a real-life tragedy on to a bunch of people, but suffice it to say that it was absolutely, undeniably an accident. Even so, he was similarly wracked with guilt. The area community watched that man’s psychological state completely collapse. He never recovered, and it was hard to blame him for that.

I can’t imagine how I’d ever recover if I accidentally caused a loved one’s death, either. And hopefully, very few people will ever have to know such horror. If I knew someone in such a situation, of course I’d be there to support them while simultaneously encouraging them to get professional help they can lean on. I’d encourage anyone in such a situation to seek out help and try to support them, naturally. And Joker does do that! But holy shit, when we see flashbacks to the aftermath of the tragedy, Sumire is DEEPLY miserable. She can barely go through the motions If Sumire believes that she is Kasumi, it does more than just help heal her feelings of inferiority — it also means that she endured a tragedy in which her little sister died because of said sister’s own actions As we’ve established - tragedy still exists. Either sister being gone is a tragedy. And Sumire who died - not because of Kasumi but because of her own fault? Its still tragic (once again, reminder: hardships and tragedy still occur here), but it’s not completely debilitating in the same way.

In light of what I saw happen so close to home, I don’t blame Yoshizawa for choosing this life at all. It’d be preferable to just have both sisters alive and together, but it does not appear that Maruki has control over what people wish for. If he did, then maybe he could restore her sister and help build up her confidence from there... that’d be greatly preferable. But if this is her biggest wish — to simply BE her sister and live life with Kasumi’s confidence — then I’m with MarukI: At least this lets her live her life happily and at peace.

I get that it’s not the perfect solution. But I’ll take whatever option is available that prevents a situation like the doomed, self-destructive widower I mentioned three paragraphs earlier.

Maruki is Doing the Same Thing the Phantom Thieves Did... But Better

Based on the above, this seems pretty win-win for everyone (although Sumire is certainly a debatable case). Well... it’s a win-win for most everyone except Akechi; he interprets any change to the current timeline as a removal of his free will. (Which obviously isn’t completely true; we watch a whole load of characters making clear decisions and choices during this arc, even before they are ‘awakened’ from this reality and, if they accept Maruki’s reality? Even AFTER that, too. So Akechi is full of shit, ofc.) In fact, Akechi is so dead-set on following the path he already chose that he’s still grimly adamant about doing so after finding out that he’s dead in the original timeline. Akechi insists that only HE can choose what is the truth, which is very much aligned with how he used to frame people for crimes in order to get credit for their arrest :P .... AND also not at all far removed from Maruki’s stance. Except Akechi’s “truth” is self-destructive, and Maruki’s “truth” is a positive for goddamn everybody.

Explained another way: The Phantom Thieves as a whole are doing the same thing as Maruki, just on a smaller scale and without actually addressing the societal problems that create such unfairness. The Phantom Thieves have spent this entire game forcibly changing the hearts and cognition of criminals and awful people, but they’ve never bothered to examine the root of such problems. Maruki is simply taking a single swing at erasing systemic injustice and sudden-onset cruelty in the world. The Phantom Thieves are firefighters; Maruki is an architect. The Phantom Thieves are whacking down whatever moles may pop up, but Maruki? He’s dismantling the whole rigged-ass game.

And y’know, considering how much Joker and the Phantom Thieves talk about carving their own future and free will and stuff in the “True” ending.. they sure do strip a whole lot of people of THEIR free will during the game’s campaign, don’t they?

But look, I’m sure they don’t care about that. Because somewhere along the line — and it’s hard to pinpoint exactly where —the Phantom Thieves stopped caring about other people. As in: Anybody outside of their own group.

The Phantom Thieves’ Great Big Selfish Dick Move

In the “True” route, once the Phantom Thieves remember their past lives, they struggle for a bit with the idea of whether they’re doing the right thing by opposing Dr. Maruki and the new timeline. He’s only trying to help people, after all. Including all of them.

But Ryuji gives a little speech that gets everybody on-board with changing Maruki’s heart and returning to the former reality.

WOO! FUCK everybody else who is living their lives happily! FUCK all the people who are now LITERALLY ALIVE in the new timeline! Let’s re-murder them, re-traumatize people we know (umm wasn’t Shiho literally raped in the original world? but not in this timeline?................... so WTF are you fucking doing you fucking monsters??????), because ONLY WE CAN DECIDE ON OUR REALITY! And we remember the old, shittier one right now, so let’s .... default to that one I guess! Despite the fact that this is one is already established to be EQUALLY FUCKING REAL.

Shockingly, the rest of the team chooses THIS is the time to finally fucking respect Ryuji. (NOTE: The time to respect Ryuji was, in truth, every single damn day BEFORE this one. He’s an excellent human being. Or... he was. Before this moment.)

BUT NOT EVERYBODY BELIEVES IN IT, YUSUKE! What about all those people who are happy here? And what about the fact that this reality isn’t any less real than your original one? Remember: This is LITERALLY happening. This is a valid AU. There’s no trickery employed. No illusions. This is a new timeline that is VERY real.

So, why?! WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS?!?!

.........................towards the end of the chapter, there’s an argument made that humanity has to suffer and overcome trials and struggle in order to develop and grow. Of course, we’ve fairly well shot down the idea that there’s zero suffering in this reality (see Concern #2 above) or that there’s no effort required (see Concern #3 above). But even if we hadn’t, there’s a bigger question to face here: Is there any evidence to suggest that people WON’T grow or evolve without struggle and suffering? Can we actually back that up, this idea that we have to “overcome” in order to become better people?

I submit that we cannot. I further submit that this is the argument of the downtrodden; the argument of the sufferers who wish to justify their own misery to themselves. But in reality? They can’t say for certain that loss and trauma are “good.”

In fact, let me argue right now that such things are inherently BAD. People who suffer from PTSD are far more likely to have suicidal ideation, and a 2021 study showed that suicide rates are more than four times higher for people suffering from PTSD than without. If we could really erase trauma and PTSD from our world, I think we can safely say it’d make a VERY lasting impact that would be EXTREMELY worth doing.

It seems that the “spirit of rebellion” within the Phantom Thieves extends to “any decision or idea any adult has ever implemented regardless of merit.” They’re teenagers, after all... and not a single one of them is as mature as someone like P3′s Mitsuru, so I accept that their knee-jerk rebellious instincts might be overriding their ability to think logically.

Or, let’s be more charitable about it. MAJOR DIGRESSION: This could be a situation kind of like writing Star Trek: Insurrection. (I know most of you won’t understand what I’m referencing here. I’m sorry.) That movie presents a sticky ethical debate: Is it OK for a government to forcibly relocate a population of 600 people if their current homeland contains some natural healing mojo that could be used to save *billions* of people across the galaxy? Patrick Stewart once said that he was forced to make Picard very narrow-minded in order to serve the needs of the movie’s story. Because if that same story was presented in the format of multiple TV episodes, there would’ve been time to explore a bunch of alternative solutions that weren’t as binary as “force them out and take all the healing mojo OR leave them be and don’t take any of the healing mojo.” There would obviously be multiple negotiable middle grounds that just aren’t discussed because of time constraints. (To his credit, Picard DOES try to throw up a bunch of alternatives during his confrontation with a superior officer. They’re all shot down with hand-wavey explanations, but at least a few are suggested.)

DIGRESSION OVER. My point? Maybe that’s how it is here, too. Maybe the Phantom Thieves just can’t afford to sit around and discuss this matter in a serious debate because the game is already SUPER long; they need to get the fuck on with it and not just pump you full of non-interactive cutscenes, so Ryuji simplifies everything. ............. It’s just that he does so in a manner that makes the squad look really short-sighted and selfish.

In Conclusion

I took Maruki’s deal. That was MY ending to the game. And it might very well be the best ending available! Although I’d be willing to at least consider the original Non-Royal, didn’t-completely-Maruki’s-Confidant ending as a semi-contender... but DANG, yo. It’s tough to beat the Mega-Happy New Reality Ending. (I subsequently watched the rest of the “True” ending only on YouTube playthroughs, which is where I nabbed these screenshots.)

Taking Maruki’s deal results in basically everybody getting a fulfilling, beautiful life. Although I admit that I have no idea how Akechi is now part of the new reality... because he was never going to accept it, right? And we established repeatedly that those who don’t accept it can’t really reap the benefits, so... why is he now a legitimate “detective prince” whose external behavior from the first few chapters of P5 is now actually who he is inside? How’d THAT ever happen? Not sure about that shit.

Even so, it’s a long and beautiful ending full of gorgeous art of the squad all living their best lives. Morgana is relegated to just carrying “Miss Ann’s” bags while shopping, and he doesn’t even care - he’s just happy to be there. Makoto and Sae get to have dinners with their father again. Haru is more directly involved in the “Big Bang Burger” business, working to keep it ethical and respectful of the neighborhoods where they open as she prepares to carve her own path after high school. Makoto and Haru even get to graduate.

The whole thing wraps up with Sojiro inviting Joker to finish his high school experience in Tokyo. That’s right - he’s asked if he’d like to stay at the cafe and Shujin for his third and final year. Naturally, he’s happy to accept the offer. That means he’ll even be there for an overlap with Futaba’s FIRST year in high school. (Plus he no longer has to return to his small suburban town and his parents who NEVER ONCE CALLED OR MESSAGED DURING THE YEAR, WTF??? ............ or uh, maybe that happened offscreen?)

It’s really weird how the writers of Persona 5 Royal SO THOROUGHLY argued against any possible downside of Maruki’s new reality. I get that they wanted a complex issue to grapple with, but if they really wanted us to choose to reject the new world and pursue the True Ending, they should’ve given us some kind of good reason, right? Even if it’s just a small reason, there’s got to be an argument that’s better than “I don’t like the idea that the timeline has changed”... which is ultimately all they’ve got. But I listed all the possible concerns above, and... they didn’t leave a single one of them standing. If they’d put just ONE of those potential problems in place, maybe I’d find the matter more debatable.

Well, probably not Concern #5. That’s not really enough to justify erasing all this societal progress.

In the end, I’m left to ask you this:

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