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thesherrinfordfacility · 9 months

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I would like to know how Neil's interpretation of a scene he didn't write as not being a sex metaphor somehow means he's suddenly decided Aziracrow aren't in love. With how much the Good Omens fandom insists that all headcanons are valid, why does Neil sharing his for one scene suddenly mean he needs to be tricked and bullied into having Crowley and Aziraphale kiss or be otherwise romantic?

Is it because he said a dramatic last ditch attempt at communication in the form of a completely non-sexy kiss is just that? He didn't say it wasn't a romantic kiss, he said it was a non-sexual kiss. He said, to him, the oxrib scene was not a sexual metaphor. He has not said, anywhere, that Aziraphale and Crowley are not romantically in love.

Neil does not need to be bullied or tricked by Michael and David or anyone else to make Crowley and Aziraphale be and show they are in love. He's doing a remarkable job of making them that way all on his own.

hi anon!!!✨ okay, so ive pondered over this ask, and i can't quite parse out from the tone if you might be generally asking/ranting, or if you believe that im - put simply - anti-neil in this whole discourse fiasco? because if it's the latter, i'll happily share my personal thoughts on the matter as to why that is definitely not the case. initially, just to support my point, take a look at my tags on this and this post, because that will give you a little flavour as to my opinion.

essentially, i completely agree with you. first, for full disclosure - i know that there have been quite a few comments that neil has made (in interviews, tweets etc) over the years that have fed into this discourse that i do not have receipts for; so anyone that wants me to take these into account, please feel free to send me them.

okay, now i'll try and summarise my thoughts on this (and some may repeat points you have very rightly - imo - already made):

good omens, and in particular the show, is very diverse, and inclusive. it is a triumph in this respect. specifically, i think aziraphale and crowley's story has been written very cleverly and quite sensitively to provide or reflect representation for a wide array of sexualities, gender identifications, and in general queer experiences.

my second main thought is that there is a difference between author/writer original intent, author/writer interpretation of their own work (retrospectively, as a consumer or critic in their own right), and audience interpretation. none of them have to perish for others to exist; they can exist together, even if they can conflict each other in their conclusion/s. the best stories imo are those that can be read multiple ways.

the ox-scene in ep2 (and im also going to lump 40s minisode in this too... plus multiple other specific Acting Choices throughout the season) can be interpreted sexually. i don't think there are two ways about it, it definitely can. it may not be the author's intent (bearing in mind, whilst likely overseen by neil, ACtO was written by john) to write it sexually, but the direction/acting choices are, i think, undeniably sexual in subtext and tone.

that being said, whether or not this is what the writers had in mind when writing the episode (and im not saying they absolutely did, im not psychic), the literal written narrative is not sexual at all. it's crowley tempting aziraphale into eating, an earthly pleasure that we know aziraphale later enjoys. it is therefore perfectly reasonable for some people, i imagine particularly those that are aspec, to read this scene non-sexually. whether metaphorical for sex or just a complete mukbang on aziraphale's part, i read it as an uncomfortable, intimate, eldritch-like scene. all interpretations are correct, and none are wrong. it caters for many.

the kiss scene is, to my mind, not particularly romantic, and it's certainly not sexual. crowley meant it out of love, no doubt, and hand-in-hand with that love, out of desperation and as an 'everything else has failed' way of communicating. i personally read it as a temptation, as something desperate but almost on the cusp of being possessive and cruel - thats my personal opinion/interpretation. i'll be completely honest, i don't personally see how anyone can possibly read this scene as sexual (imo kisses are not and should not be gatekept by those that are sex-inclined), but where someone does, id be happy to learn why, to try to understand that interpretation. the romantic element is a little more questionable - technically speaking, yes, it probably is romantic, and i do understand how/why people read it as that, but for me it isn't.

the story in totality is however, to my mind, romantic; in my opinion, there is love of the romantic kind between aziraphale and crowley. furthermore, neil has stated that that is the writer's intent; he intends for it to be romantic.

taking the writer intent out of the equation however, for a moment, admittedly i think their story even throughout s2 could be seen as very lovingly platonic, right up until the kiss. but even then - as I said before - the kiss for me doesn't read as completely romantic. i think one could argue that crowley just simply saw it as something he could do because 'humans do it!'. the script itself doesn't confirm outright it is romantic - it strongly alludes to it, sure, but there has been no indisputable declaration of romantic love. therefore (whilst, again, i do not personally think this to be the case - i do see romantic love here) it is entirely possible to interpret the narrative, text and subtext, in completely different ways and those interpretations still be valid.

where the story, and their relationship itself, goes and concludes is unknown. they could have multiple kisses of the romantic variety in s3, or they may never kiss again. they could just hug, or hold hands. they could have a full-on sex scene, or potentially have a scene that could be interpreted as leading to one. they could even have a conversation about being willing to try sex, another human experience, but agree that if neither of them like it, they don't do it again (but will still love each other), and the conclusion is left purposefully ambiguous. there may be a love confession, an outright declaration, or something could be said in a subtle way such that can be interpreted as both platonic and romantic.

i agree that neil doesn't need to be bullied by anyone into writing the story he's going to write... there will however be jokes about it, mainly from the hyperbolic perspective of michael being quite vocal that he too sees aziraphale as being in love with crowley. michael has admitted (jokingly? professional research?) to reading fanfiction that helped inform him on this personal confirmation, and this may have informed him on his acting. there are some of us that joke about the 'feral-ness that is michael in being hellbent on getting a sex scene' etc., and i know some have taken that joke further in saying that michael should essentially campaign for one, but i think we can all safely say that neil will write what he writes, and michael will continue to play aziraphale absolutely perfectly, and according to the script and direction offered to him. they are professionals, colleagues, and im fairly certain are definitely friends; the jokes are jokes (on this blog at least, anyway).

final point; i think neil has a fairly difficult task - whether he actively pays a deliberate mind to this or not, or it just comes naturally - in continuing to write a story that can be representative of everyone. he has his intent, sure, and his later own interpretation, but he has provided something amazing; characters and a story that is supernatural in setting, but entirely human in nature. that can speak to so many people, of so many different walks of life. that everyone can see a bit of themselves in these characters, can recognise parts of them in their own spirit. sees them go through decisions and experiences and joy and pain that each of us have at some point probably encountered ourselves.

that balancing act - again, whether he purposefully does pay this any mind or not - cannot be easy. i do not personally see him as homophobic for what he said in that tweet. i do not personally think he has queerbaited, or led anyone on to think that the characters/narrative is something that it's not. that's my opinion, and i fully respect that others will have theirs (and id be happy to hear them!), but i think he is respectful that people will have their individual interpretations, and leave it at that. he may even agree with some of them - he has said that he has liked metas etc based on merit and effort, out of respect too i imagine, but not necessarily as a veritable stamp of approval that the post agrees outright with his original intent or personal interpretation.

in any case - why would he agree to one interpretation if that could mean that that could upset someone else with a different one? that's not fair on anyone, so i think it's more than fair that he sticks to confirming what he intended in what he wrote, and not comment on how it should be interpreted. its because of this - brass tacks time - that i think any questions about interpretation should be kept out of his askbox... sure, ask about what is literally in the script, or what physically happens on screen, or background 'canon' info, but don't ask him for how you should interpret it, because i think it's fair to say he is only ever going to give back his original intention, or how he personally interprets it.

that doesn't automatically mean that he thinks any other interpretation is ridiculous or inaccurate, or not valid; everyone else's interpretation can exist at the same time too. he might disagree privately, but that's up to him - same as the rest of us✨

#anon again im not sure if you thought that i was gettkng shitty about neil but i hope that if you did this ask clarifies #and by god do i hope this rambling mess makes sense #do i need to state that for legal reasons this is my opinion only and not reflective blah blah blah? if so well there you go #opinions stated are - unfortunately - entirely my own #good omens #ask #do i dare tag mr man #nah probably best if i didnt

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ididit-allofit-foryou · 10 months

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@ididit-allofit-foryou masterlist

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Hi! My name’s Rain, and I’m a chronically ill, queer, and nonbinary author, poet, and artist. I mainly post about supernatural (subsection: destiel) and disability content! I also post my art and writing sometimes! My pronouns are they/them, but they/he is also okay! I hope you’ll stick around a while, and feel free to talk to me!! :D

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incarnateirony · 1 year

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Genuinely did not expect to go on a like 2 day transmasc platforming spree, but between the post, and people in server actually genuinely asking questions and stuff lately, I've been on a whole bender.

And like, it ain't like I'm an expert. The rant itself is literally about social imbalances that have completely jacked over trans conversation and pushed out the most vulnerable the conversation are supposedly here to protect and so on.

Well that and like.

I really. really wish gender never got attached to trans stuff. and i support gender and like, want everyone to have all the gender. But the lines blurred man. There's a 0.5% pop getting trampled under All The Genders. Everyone's Genders. Genders for everyone. Like yeah we we have genders too but that's not the point.

What I said that made it click for someone: You have your gender. It's cool, and great, and I want you to express it and it's special and it's yours. I have a boner. These are not the same thing.

And I just. Wish I could illustrate how difficult the conversation has come to be. Since starting this I'm not walking two people through trans journeys that FINALLY UNDERSTAND THEIR OWN DYSPHORIA NOBODY EVER TALKED ABOUT ON MAIN CUZ THATS ILLEGAL NOW I GUESS. And weirdly they're identical to mine. XYZ. Got uncomfy. Packed it down. Figured I was ace. Tried not to open schroedinger's boner box.

Yeah, I know, there ain't many of us but we're all living it and it's a pain in the ass to navigate to find the discussion cuz the gender stuff got all tangled up in it and like. Something about feelings and maybe you don't need dysphoria?

One thing I beg of in this fandom is to recognize it is still an inherently woman led space, and that you are not immune to rafical feminism. Not even if you put on a gender tag. And conveniently, there's about a bajillion of you with gender tags that have made it real hard for some of us to talk about certain problems. And then we die.

It may be my comms history making me cynical, but replacing transs*xual (after declaring it a slur like some try to delete Queer with) with transgender seems exactly like the kind of bullshit to delete a very tiny community by getting them overwashed by another that thinks it's there for Good* or Support* or whatever.

Like. If I was a psycho that hated trans people, that's basically how to do it in a media comms game. Make the old form of it Bad in name first, then in Concept (eg talking about bio stuff at all = truscum or other scary accusation), and then everything brought into the gender arts category rather than anywhere approximating the original conversation.

Like yall i love gender but you kinda really came in, trampled on the flowerbed and set up your own HOA telling the locals what to do, and there's a billion of you and like ten of us, you get how that's fucking up the social leverage even before undressing things like misandry vs rightful rage at the patriarchy. right. Like. I sure hear a lot of Gender voices in my friends that I love very dearly but curiously trans men are just. Like shiny pokemon.

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faithlehanemademegay · 7 years

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so i just need to rant for a hot sec but

living in nyc is honestly the most Depressing thing ever in some ways

i love it to death so much like my job is my dream i’m living in my dream city it’s fucking inSANE i never want to leave basically

but not knowing anyone is so detrimental to my health! if i didn’t know anyone anywhere else it’d be different, but this city is full of the most Amazing ppl that i know would be my best friends but not being able to know those ppl bc u just don’t know how to meet them sucks!!

today i met up w/ this girl who’s my mutual on IG (lol my last post is about her) but like tiny crush aside she is so fucking dope and like MY kinda person AND she’s queer (my lack of queer friends is so annoying) and i’m so lucky that i could meet someone like that but she also has like an established friend group here and she’s gonna be a senior and i’m gonna be a sophomore and she’s had a gf of literally 2 years who’s already like working at buzzfeed full time so like there’s still this divide and all i wanna do is find ppl my age who i can vibe with and have similar interests but are still decent ppl lol and it’s just like... impossible

in college i’ve met some rly fucking dope ppl but they all wanna work for the fucking government like none of them want to move to nyc and it’s just kinda depressing for me and :/// there’s this tiny dude in the back of my brain that’s telling me to transfer to a school in the city but idk if i’d even be happy going to school here i’m jsut like :// i wanna fast forward to when i graduate and move here full time and just have the time of my life

i love college so much i rly do, but being here has made me Think a lot. like the girl i met today said how college isnt rly her thing and that she thinks the best years of her life will be post grad and i rly vibed with that but then again i go to one of the most expensive schools in the fuckin country so like.. is it rly worth it?

gw is offering me a great education on women’s studies but comm!! haha fuck that!!! that program sucks!!!

if i didn’t have anxiety about making new friends and starting over and not missing my old friends and not absolutely loving it at the next school i’d transfer, i truly would, but it’s just like.... i don’t have the means to honestly it’s just not worth it considering a part of me does love gw i’m in love with my student org it’s such an accepting school if i didn’t go there i may have never realized i was a lesbian so it just means a lot to me but honestly the type of ppl i see myself being best friends with for life don’t go to that school (don’t get me wrong--i have some amazing loving friends that i love to death, we just have such vastly different interests and idk)

ok this has been a rant that makes no sense bc at first i was describing nyc as depressing but now that i think of it i do have some friends here that i love (or will get to love) and now i’m sad bc i’m gonna be leaving them for a whole year and i just wish i lived here full time :-( i knew this would happen lol

#personal #actually makes no sense

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incarnateirony · 4 years

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Why do you think so many people in fandoms of tv shows, movies, games and pretty much anything have such a strong resistance to a character being revealed to be LGBT? I've seen it so many times, and I know you've seen it a lot as well, and it's just so weird to me how offended people are by this. A recent example is in the fandom of a videogame I'm in, were many are just outraged by the notion some believe that a main character, a white, male soldier that exists since 1997 could, maybe, be LGBT.

The fight over this crap is kind of intersectional. Everything from homophobes to our own. This is heavily tied to (America, since this is intersectional with an american show, but also global) opinions shifting on things like oh, gay marriage. (x) Such as modernly 15%~ of citizens are homophobes and think The Gay Sexinating should be illegal. Which sounds shitty as all kinds of fuck until you scale that against 43% in 77′, and 77 was actually *before* the AIDs epidemic really became central or anything so you can imagine what those numbers realistically became then.

We’ve made progress, and there’s still progress to be made, but it was literally less than half a century ago – two generations ago – here, in many of our lifetimes, or at least in the lifetimes of people the younger reading audience here *knows* – that this landscape wasn’t even *recognizable*

So socially speaking this works in waves of conversation– be that the gays being cursed by god yadda yadda and thus deserve to die of AIDS and be treated like lepers – down to “Why do they even need included in anything” following shortly after, with a mindset of “perversion” still heavily steeped in the population that would plague children of the 80s and 90s heavily. You wanna deal with some internalization, there’s some internalization.

Keeping a thumb on the fact that the needle *has* shifted is a great deal of it, I think – obviously not “OK! WE’RE DONE NOW!” but being aware there’s not a 50%~ chance someone you walk by thinks you should be arrested or killed anymore, that more than 1 in 8 douchebags are going to be whole thundergeese about it, and that it is what it is, and it sucks, and we’re waiting to get further-again. Also there’s whole other issues WRT MLM vs WLW and what earns what kind of resistance but that’s a WHOLE other rant.

The thing is, when people grow into an environment of being *disadvantaged*, if they don’t as much take time to celebrate our *progress* as much as rant about everything that *isn’t going perfectly right*, we lose our scale. It maintains this feeling of being the completely 100% hated unseen minority that the whole world still hates, when we can’t look back and go, you know what, in 2019, 83% of people don’t think it should be illegal, 2% have no opinion. That’s just a very congealed residual screaming mass of assbags and subconsciously we all know it, but continuing to gear the conversation as if we’re fighting from the pits of the 60s or 70s is??? really weird???

But at the same time understandable?

So on the one hand you get The Gays arguing from being an angle of being incredibly more disadvantaged than they are. And then, you get people from this shifting demographic – be it the 15% remaining douchebags congealed into a screaming lot, or the 40% slide that have come to realize we’re just minding our own business and loving who we want between 77 and now – that, still lost *in* that dark history and frankly propaganda hold onto *resistances*. So if we’re talking about a character that, say, probably straight white guys have attached to since the 90s, if they attached to that character in the 90s, odds are, they were fairly developed and at least 15 years old if not more already. And odds are, they were subject to everything from the impact of the epidemic to just older nonsense clouding their vision, and whether we like it or not, these people *will* have likely resistance.

Because we may not like that chapter of history, and we give no excuse for homophobia, but in perspective when an entire country’s homosexual population was ravaged by something ignored by government and hospitals, and dismissively packaged as a curse by evangelical america in a country about 75% christian, just how *much* that *completely* fucks up people’s internal understanding. It’s the same dehumanization that was used against anyone else genocided, in other major historical moments we all know about. It doesn’t make the passivity right, but welcome to how literal propaganda can fuck up entire populations.

So to roll back to the Nonnie: These fights in general seem to strike me as a mix of intersectional… lack of understanding. Young Gays that don’t really get what the world was like 40~ years ago or even 20~ are absolutely baffled why anyone would get so reactive to an idea. Old Gays do want better representation, but some have had a hell of a time *from* internalizing those ideas. The Straights of the time have a WHOLE other mess of shit to sort out in their heads before coming around to being open and understanding. Everybody’s talking across each other, instead of talking with each other, and some have unfortunately entirely convinced themselves they are still as hated as they were back then, which turns into more circular representation visibility fights, which turns into another circus, yeehaw.

Which sometimes even turns into striking down their own representative work (be that SPN here or the goblins we all know on this hellsite that tear down anything that looks vaguely like representation because it isn’t XYZ enough). Because in the interest of arguing with *maybe 15 percent of the population that doesn’t think you have the right to exist* about *fictional content* being made to *represent YOU, not them*, we ironically do a lot of damage to our queer canon by just stomping on current incrementalization and expansion without minding the history and steamroll it. Which frankly makes us all look like disorganized lunatics trying to Make Everything Gay™ even if that’s not what it is remotely.

And because I know this will be misunderstood I’ll continue to frame this point from a few angles before it’s misrepresented: Wanting rep/seeing queer narratives wherever you go is fine and the nature of the fight, I’m just trying to explore the divide between r/NiceGuys that get mad at the gay vs the modern LGBT comm and frankly the general bloated, inflated relevance they have that the community at times lets, or even invites dialogue of, their heteronormative framings, often rooted back from times of REALLY DARK PROPAGANDA AND GENOCIDE and how it affected culture – to damage and bury their own content, generally in the logic “if they don’t see it, then it doesn’t count!” when, if-and-when queer coding or open in your face textual coming-out canon or even just low-visibility text is conscious, that is content for *you.*

And it’s not saying “stop and settle” to put this into perspective. It’s “don’t piss on the work everybody else did before you – or worse on what they’re doing right now – just to argue with the couple of assbags left in the universe.“ They’ll go away too eventually. It doesn’t happen overnight. And they’re not going to stop happening overnight. No matter how many gay video game soldiers you find at this type, no matter if Dean Winchester just quietly voices his repeat encounters with men in a way that landmarks it so loudly you NEED to break out alt-right dialogues those same 1 in 8 have that I have beaten to death – to choose to interject that kind of long-ago-addressed conversational edge is literally to choose to interject homophobic dialogue into conversations of how LGBT rep should work and honey if you need an indicator that you may be leaning in the wrong direction, there’s your sign.

But it can be hard to unplug and stop thinking the world is still as bad as it is back then, BECAUSE you run into those assbags that resist it loudly. But like many things, numbers show they’ve died off into a minority. We still have a way to go, but this is a weird ongoing self-inflated fight that seems heavily unaware on WHY people react like that (as per the original ask) much less how ridiculous it is to keep dragging dialogues born in the AIDS epidemic days into these discussions.

Simple point? If you aren’t able to really mobilize on content (yelling online generally ain’t it, chief), ignore them. Enjoy your content if it’s yours, because there’s a lot of effort in simply erasing normalizing queer content because if it’s not EXTREME enough to win against THOSE GUYS *POINTS AT* then NYEAAAAAAAAAH.

It was never gonna be enough to win on those guys, even if it was full queer cinema canon LGBT stories and not stories that just include LGBT people normally.

Look I don’t even know what soldier you’re talking about, and I don’t care. Enjoy your shit your way and remember how easy it is for a minority to be ruthlessly loud when they can connect themselves across the wholeassed internet.

But until people really learn the history of why certain mindsets cropped up or how they invaded conversation or what rattled entire generations to their core, prople are gonna have a hard time fucking communicating with each other instead of just talking over each other. And sometimes even talking over their own within the community/engaging in deletion/the carousel runs in a circle.

But *why* that mindset exists? It’s not difficult. It’s because this nation got saturated in propaganda that warranted letting the homosexual community suffer and die in numbers that would make your head spin, where everyone knew someone with it, as coffeebrainblog has said, where we were treated like lepers, or “cursed by god”, or as lesser, inhuman things and climbing out of that hole has been a hell of a ride, but the community has to also de-internalize that propaganda and realize WE’RE PRETTY MUCH THERE. Like the road isn’t over, the war isn’t 100% won, but if the statistics alone don’t get you, if you *really* sat and read this reply, maybe where the din and eternal upset has buried our *progress*, you’ll realize that progress has dramatically pitched that into being the minority.

But it keeps everybody arguing from disadvantaged levels and even some choosing to self-handicap by creating their own definitions, rules, boundaries and almost states of the universe they’ll accept, because 1 in 8ish people hate them, but they’re still stuck in a world where 1 in 2 might want you dead, somewhere in your headspace. It’s like setting your own handicap bar which… is kind of the opposite? Of what we’re supposed to do? We’re supposed to knock down those cages? And point out we’re the same as everyone else? Running to prove things to people who still think we might carry God’s Plague And Be Judged that haven’t listened to decades of correction so far, just to dissect and dismantle your own contents or enjoyments – it’s a really, really weird backwards pedaling thing to aim for.

I *get* why people think it’s the right way, again, as per all of this, but it’s… it’s pedaling backwards and thinking it’s moving forward.

So while I don’t know what soldier you’re talking about, it was a chance to address A) why there’s resistance in some generations B) what that did to us, as a community C) where sometimes we lose track of ourselves in a carnival of competition.

EDIT:

This note by @amitywho rings home:

Excellent analysis. I’m extremely ancient - I was a grown-ass adult in a flyover state back in 1980 when the first whispers about “the gay cancer” in New York and San Francisco began to make their way to us. I had to drive 150 miles to find a bookstore that carried any kind of gay-positive literature. We parked across the street to watch and see who might be loitering in the neighborhood - if they had baseball bats, no one would be coming to help.

I’ll also add there seems to be OUSA influence, but I centered on the american demographic of an american show; but it still impacts online worldwide net conversation. That OUSA influence varies between highly oppressed countries having heartier ala-80s POVs on LGBT, to on the exact opposite OUSA fans not really having their heads wrapped around the American side of the history beyond what it means in a few articles if they came from more progressive countries that didn’t, like, genocide their gays. So even older LGBT OUSA people look at it from the disembodied angle of a few headlines they remember, not being in the blast zone and resulting fallout.

Also to drift to another topic of LGBT exploitation: If you want to know why CW has “dare to defy” as a slogan just behind the idea that they have PoC or gays on their channel, I really need someone to sit and think about that. Welcome to a bunch of older people that remember these days that see it as *DEFIANT* to do at our current intersection. Nevermind them now exploiting that to try to find a new center for their network after CBS fucked them WRT Netflix, but hey. Yeah. Put that in scale. Why does it need virtue signal marketing, and moreover, what are they “defying”? This. This kind of mindset. Which is heavily sourced in an age demographic likely to be the core of CW Exec boards and marketing.

If you want an idea how deep rooted in our psyche stunted dialogues are, the fact that few people even blink at that says a fuck of a lot to me. No, we dared to defy decades ago, you’re just trying to profit on what you still run through marketing and demographics and ho-hum but think you can pull money from. There’s a difference. But it does betray the minds behind it. It should be more like “DARE TO LOSE 15% OF OUR PROFIT MARGIN AND HOPE WE GET THAT 20-30% OF GAYS INSTEAD” – it’s profiting off of the work the LGBT community did and acting like they’re brave for doing it at a point that they actually risk more losses to NOT start. It’s signaling themselves as heroes in a battle they had nothing to do with. And it’s pretty standard fare.

(And, ON that aside, it spins me out how often I’ve seen in misc fandoms fans acting like queer content that is canonically queer doesn’t count if it’s not overtly marketed and shopped explicitly as LGBT content, rather than content that happens to have LGBT elements – why are you BEGGING to be exploited before you consider yourselves valid, I’m confused. We’ve already had our big grand coming out stories and tales of struggle and there’s a whole queer canon history I’ve posted about this. The whole point of our current junction is getting content everywhere that reflects how normal-and-everywhere we are, why are y’all like this)

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