does aziraphale understand suffering?
i spent quite a while last night thinking about this topic following reading this thought-provoking analysis from @lstarart which, as the first bit indicates, early-days aziraphale only understood what it is to suffer in the abstract when it has a direct link to whether or not someone is Good (summarising very poorly!). nonetheless, i thought perhaps the concept of suffering according to aziraphale might need exploring a little further.
(warning: very long post - frankly it's just self indulgent)
suffering from lack of self-worth
one of the most heartbreaking moments in s2 for me is when in ep6 it seems that shax has a penchant for driving right at the heart of insecurity. she demonstrates this with maggie and the insult she directs at her, which to me acts somewhat as a parallel for crowley, culminating in the line “you are unloved, and unlovable. you’re nobody, and you’ll live - and you’ll die - a nobody.” now first of all - crowley isn’t there to hear it, and so only the audience can draw this as a narrative parallel. second - maggie’s reaction is to rise up to meet shax, and fight fire with fire; she looks first back at nina, perhaps for conviction or strength, says to the demons, “my god, you lot are pathetic.”, and appears instead to own those insecurities and refuse to be ashamed of them.
but then shax later turns her attention on aziraphale, who doesn't have that same conviction nor bolster from crowley being physically present, and shax directly drives at the heart of things about him of which he ought to be ashamed. we’ve always seen these elements of aziraphale as being the most lovable parts of him, and are what makes him the enigmatic and dynamic character that he is. however, as is hinted in s1 and now becomes abundantly clear, aziraphale guards these deep in his soul as being his deepest faults, cracks that he has ignored as they have widened, and has carried as a mark of him being lacking:
“Aziraphale… what are you? Crowley’s emotional support angel? The softest touch. The one who went native. Do you need more big, human meals, Aziraphale? Shall we send up the sushi?”
ive written about this before, so a lot of this is going to be repeated, but my thought process on these particular ‘faults’ is this; it is not beyond belief that aziraphale has major issues with self-worth and feeling like he isnt ‘enough’. what shax strikes at are, as i said, elements of ‘fault’ within aziraphale that we have had glimpses of through s1 and into the earlier episodes of s2; she remarks on his propensity for indulgence (sushi/meals), his tendency to be overtrusting and naive ("softest touch"), his lack of traditional angelic quality ("went native"), and the question of what exactly crowley feels for him and what purposes aziraphale serves in their dynamic (emotional support angel").
the way i see it is that aziraphale looks to two sources when evaluating his own self worth; heaven (and possibly god by extension), and crowley. heaven and the archangels completely disregard aziraphale, and are condescending and reductive in how they perceive and interact with him, with gabriel going so far as to insult his corporation (an insecurity that, iirc, we can even glean directly from the book when aziraphale reacts 'with disappointment' to the body he is in after adam splits him from madame tracy).
and crowley? well, to my mind, crowley’s dispensation to overprotect (whilst coming from a good place, of that i’m certain) reduces aziraphale’s agency, especially when crowley essentially talks over him in ep5 (and at other points too), and i could imagine leaves aziraphale questioning what exactly he is able to contribute to their relationship other than being a receptacle for crowley’s sense of loneliness and desertion. we know that's not the case, that it's infinitely more than that, but i could imagine that in this sense of feeling dismissed, aziraphale could see it like this.
then we have the two occasions where crowley strikes at aziraphale in regards to his naivety and belief, (“how could someone as clever as you be so stupid?”, “you’re better than that, angel!”) which, whilst is entirely valid from crowley’s perspective - because aziraphale is naive in his belief in higher power being willing to do the right thing, or be better - from aziraphale’s perspective, he’s struggled through millennia of reconciling his belief system and whether or not the side that he ‘belongs to’ is in fact Good or Right, and he in this he's still struggling. but hes getting there, and crowley has effectively been by his side guiding him through this monumental shift in his psyche; to have it turned on him in this manner had to hurt, even if he knows/realises after the fact that crowley was right.
imo, all of these elements strike at the notion that aziraphale is not “good enough”, especially in the eyes of the two entities to which he needs most to in fact think of him as enough, exactly as he is, in order to affirm any sense of self-worth. as i said in another post on this point:
“he's good enough to guard the eastern gate, but not good enough to keep adam and eve from temptation. he's good enough to guard and monitor the antichrist, but not enough to be truly accepted as part of the heaven hive (his physical sentry post on earth notwithstanding). he's good enough for crowley to run away with to alpha centauri, but not enough to convince crowley to choose to stay and fight with him to prevent the apocalypse… right up until ep6 when he's good enough to be loved by crowley enough to spend eternity with, but not enough for crowley to sacrifice his hang-ups with heaven and help him rebuild it as a team so noone else ever has to suffer what they both did.”
what point am i trying to reach here, as regards aziraphale’s perspective on the concept of suffering? well, to me, in this context, he knows suffering very well. he knows suffering of the personal kind, and it has never left him. It might have burrowed its way down, hidden under the affirmation that ‘i’m happy with myself, and crowley seems to want to know me, so it’s fine’, but it never has left him. he has been essentially ignored and neglected and traumatised by his experience with heaven, and slowly dismantling that belief system has been difficult and painful. however, instead of resolving to replace the source any sense of self-esteem with a belief in himself, he appears to have instead replaced it with crowley. and that's not fair on crowley, to be put on that pedestal (yes, my favourite topic of pedestals rears its ugly head).
aziraphale takes the opportunity with heaven given by metatron not only as one that would prevent further harm to him and crowley but also to others, an opportunity arguably of a more altruistic kind, but he sees it as an assurance that he, as himself (someone who is not wholly Good and in fact has faults), is what is needed to bring change to a broken system. it wouldn’t surprise me if in s3 aziraphale initially changes his emotional allegiance to heaven, away from crowley - a mirror of his resolution at the end of s1 - because the opportunity he’s been given, in his eyes, shows that heaven considers him enough, even if crowley no longer does. he channels his suffering in a wholly unhealthy way, unable or refusing to find self-worth in anywhere but a third party where he lays his absolute loyalty, whereas instead he needs to find it within himself first and foremost.
suffering from fear of discovery
somewhat leading on from this is aziraphale's fear of his and crowley's relationship being discovered. ive covered this in multiple other posts, but please be mindful that i go into this section under my own interpretation that neither crowley nor aziraphale have been in love with each other since the pre-fall scene. aziraphale is clearly crushing on the angel who crowley was (AWCW), that much is obvious (and AWCW is rather... ignorant of this), and even in a short space of time aziraphale comes to care enough for AWCW that he experiences concern and fear for the repurcussions should he start asking questions. but i don't think he's in love.
arguably, aziraphale and crowley from eden onwards begin very much as acquaintances. this evolves into allyship and burgeoning friendship, but the tone of their relationship to each other doesnt seem to shift until 1601, when aziraphale vocalises his worry over their arrangement, "but if hell finds out, they won't just be angry - they'll destroy you." aziraphale doesn't express any kind of concern for himself, only for crowley.
now this, i think, is a reflection of aziraphale's prejudice on hell being the black in the black and white; even if heaven found out, whilst they'd be angry, they wouldnt do anything drastic because it's the side of love and mercy. hell by contrast is torture and pain and cruelty. but beyond this - because i do think at this point aziraphale has started to truly recognise that crowley is not of hell himself - i think it is also out of genuine concern compared to that of his own wellbeing. the two reasons are not mutually exclusive.
this kind of continues into 1793; crowley tells him not to thank him for rescuing him, and aziraphale seems to recognise that crowley has a point - he immediately rewords his thanks as being "very grateful", and instead offers a transaction to express his gratitude. maybe not as deep and meaningful, but he seems to recognise that placing crowley under any scrutiny, however inadvertently, could spell for disaster. there is also the suggested risk of heaven now potentially keeping a closer eye on aziraphale, which is compounded by the legendary chocolates scene that didn't unfortunately make its way into the final cut.
that being said, the scene is in the script book - and as such, im mindful to accept it firmly as canon (can't remember if neil has confirmed it canon or not, given its not in the show). as a recap: in this, gabriel and sandalphon turn up unexpectedly to aziraphale's bookshop just before its opening in 1800, tell him he's being commended, and is required to return to heaven, thereby abandoning his sentry post on earth.
at this point, unnoticed by gabriel and sandalphon, crowley turns up armed with a gift box of chocolates. aziraphale pushes that he needs to remain in earth, citing that only he is able to properly thwart his hellish counterpart, adding that crowley is wily and cunning and brilliant - prompting gabriel to remark that it sounds like aziraphale admires him. this aziraphale understandably immediately denies, adding that he can't possibly like or admire a demon, but does respect him. crowley at this point has disappeared, but later enacts a pantomime that gabriel overhears, and gabriel resolves later to keep aziraphale stationed in earth.
if nothing else, this must put the alarm bells in aziraphale's head that heaven can turn up any time they want, and it could be at the most damning time; in this instance, it very nearly was. i would like to think that crowley understood why aziraphale had to say what he did, understood it was nothing personal, and aziraphale absolutely does not think this himself, and it was instead a ruse to protect them both from discovery. but following on from this scene? it would stand to reason that that fear is always in the back of aziraphale's mind; that heaven is just as capable as hell of ripping them apart and potentially making them suffer for it.. and in this case, the separation would have been a byproduct. imagine what their sides could do if they actually tried.
but back to 1827, where crowley is pulled down the hell hatch; what i personally believe to potentially be a direct consequence of aziraphale complimenting him on doing a good deed, and hell potentially overhearing. but this moves swiftly into 1862, which starts off tense and cold, for reasons that ive recently parsed out. aziraphale is placed into an incredibly difficult position by crowley's request for holy water. crowley is desperate for it, his body language and certain cues in that scene support that, but aziraphale doesn't fully know why. we, the audience, can hypothesise that it's likely a direct result of the 1827 yeeting, but aziraphale doesn't necessarily know that - a) because he's not truly listening to crowley in that conversation, and b) crowley presumably hasn't told him. at the very least, aziraphale doesn't seem to put the puzzle pieces together until 1967.
he immediately refuses the holy water because it could harm crowley, and to boot would mean that aziraphale himself would come under scrutiny. in the same breath, he reduced their friendship to fraternisation, either out of hurt/upset of crowley having ghosted him for (what we assume is) 35 years, or to put distance between them for crowley's and his safety; it'll be horrendous enough to be discovered for that, let alone if either side find out how far the fraternisation has actually gotten. if you bring the 1800 missing scene into this, that reaction would make sense.
1941 is rather self-explanatory, because it openly poses the risk that if aziraphale and crowley's relationship were discovered, crowley would be subject to a pretty shit existence in hell. aziraphale saves them though, and all is well, but it was a remarkably close shave. i do think that we are missing a key part of context that will be revealed in s3, but for the moment let's speculate that there is a trilogy aspect to 1941, and in that last part they get a little too close to More, and/or the reason behind the holy water request is revealed and discussed, but for sake of crowley's immediate safety aziraphale once again refuses.
between then and 1967, aziraphale seems to come to the conclusion that crowley having access to holy water is the lesser of two evils, and even if it is dangerous, it is infinitely more palatable than crowley being subject to whatever hell could bring to him. aziraphale hands it over, but is still beside himself at doing so - that he could be responsible for crowley's destruction - and physically and emotionally distances himself from crowley because of the implications of it. but nonetheless it seems that aziraphale firmly places crowley's wellbeing above his own, and risks discovery in order to ensure that crowley has a way out if things go tits up again.
i think it can be accepted that crowley and aziraphale don't truly interact again until 2008(?) when the antichrist business begins. aziraphale visibly blanches at gabriel's mention of crowley in the sushi bar, which i think can be interpreted as being out of that long-stagnating guilt of their association, reawakening the fear of heaven finding out, and also just out of good ol' fashioned pain of the separation aziraphale presumably enforced following, "you go too fast for me".
their interactions from st james seem stilted and tense (even in the ritz and the bookshop, to me it all feels very business-like, especially from aziraphale's perspective), up until tadfield manor, where their old dynamic seems to rise to the surface for air, and they settle into their old familiarity. crowley gets aggressive about being complimented, but it seems that aziraphale's fear of heaven finding out about them takes a backseat. that express lack of fear doesn't really come back to bite aziraphale until the archangels later accost him, and accuse him of consorting with the enemy - aziraphale denies this, not knowing that they have literal evidence of it.
but once we cycle through to the airfield, it feels like all bets are off; because as far as theyre both concerned, they're breaking away from heaven and hell. they do their little body swap, get them momentarily off their backs, and they don't have to hide anything anymore. we find out from crowley's perspective in s2 that that isn't entirely the case - that shax and beelzebub still manage to work their way into his life - but he doesn't tell aziraphale, and aziraphale assumes that they're free to live - and love? - as they please. this is evident in how gung-ho (by aziraphale standards) he goes in demonstrating his affection for crowley throughout s2.
aziraphale suffers for his association with crowley, and crowley for vice versa. and they both know that the other suffers, or at least surmises it. aziraphale specifically knows that their relationship, if the full extent were truly discovered, could lead to their respective downfalls, and this is where i think the true point of suffering comes into this context. aziraphale is obviously apprehensive of what heaven would do and how they would react to their relationship, but it's never really explicit what exactly he fears - he never mentions a fear of falling, for example. no, instead, the only true fear he vocalises is what would happen to crowley - a much more powerful and compelling motivator for hiding the truth.
and that has to hurt aziraphale, this being of love who wholly cares and (post-1941) loves crowley (and arguably also realises that crowley might have Feelings for him too), but the safety of the subject of that love is directly compromised should he act on it, or even acknowledge it. the only time he truly does is at the end of s2, by pleading with crowley to finally be with him where he (in his mind) thinks they won't have to hide anymore - who would dare challenge them? - but crowley can't do it.
and that's understandable, but it will require them to not only mask what they feel for each other from their respective sides (as if metatron didn't know already - he explicitly states that he knows about their association), but also now, once again and with the aim of not fully feeling the pain of their separation, from each other. the need to mask and hide and camouflage that love is suffering of a different kind, and again - aziraphale knows it all too well.
suffering from crisis in belief
now this is where i think we get to the kind of suffering that either aziraphale can't understand, or refuses to acknowledge because of the implications threatening to shake apart a core tenet of his character.
for this, im going to start back at the beginning, and specifically with adam and eve. aziraphale seems to know that without a literal weapon to protect themselves - which so happens to be a flaming sword, he went all-out - their lives are going to be rather short ones. eve is already expecting a baby, and aziraphale sees the absolute need to protect human life as paramount. he is a guardian, so this would track. he seems to understand that they would come to harm, that they would suffer, if they didn't have a means with which to defend themselves. the only key point that he and crowley both seem to miss is the implication of knowledge, specifically between good and evil, could also lead to suffering in humanity.
aziraphale just seems to know that it must be bad, even after literally seeing the fall (presumably) first hand... there is an issue with knowing the difference between good and evil, because it leads to conflict. but when crowley brings up that god should have made it more difficult to get to the tree, if it would lead to this, aziraphale chalks it up to all being 'ineffable'. he justifies that whatever happens to humanity - and by extension whatever suffering it encounters - it will all have been for a reason. that being said, he obviously feels some degree of doubt; he gives them the sword.
then we come on to mesopotamia, a thousand years later, when aziraphale is faced with the flood. he tries to excuse the flood by way of remarking that it only appears to be localised, and even then some humans are going to be spared. but crowley quite rightly points out that there are children that will be killed, and aziraphale meekly agreed, giving the suggestion that he too thinks it immoral, but that they cannot judge the almighty, and once again it must all be for a Reason. this extends into uz, when aziraphale battles directly with disobeying god's orders to bring suffering to job and his family when they have done nothing but be loyal and faithful in god. he remarks that he doesn't think that this is truly what god wants, but evidently can't be sure - and yet nonetheless fully commits to ending their suffering, and in turn expects to fall for it. he doesn't.
we then fast-forward to golgotha, and both of them watch as god's son is crucified, this time adding that he doesn't get consulted on policy decisions - intimating that if he did, if he had a choice, this wouldn't be happening at all, and he would end jesus' suffering. this one is difficult, because we as the audience know that the wider context is that jesus is submitting himself to die for humanity's sins; we could assume that aziraphale doesn't necessarily know this, but maybe he does, and to know might hypothetically cause him further internal conflict. does he save the one, and ensure the suffering of the rest? to have that dilemma would bring him too close to acting god, but it's an interesting prospect nonetheless. in any case, aziraphale seems to recognise jesus' suffering.
we don't really then have any further flashbacks of aziraphale being faced with human suffering until 1793, with the reign of terror. it doesn't go into detail on the intricacies of the terror or indeed the revolution, but he does remark that the execution of suspected and confirmed counter-revolutionists was "terrible". he remarks to crowley that he had heard france was getting rather "carried away", which would indicate that he had at least heard of what was happening and why.
we could take this in either two ways; that aziraphale, as a foreshadowing of 1827 - doesn't see why the people were revolting (and resulting at this point in robespierre and the committee's measures) - doesn't understand why people would be driven through their suffering to revolt, or he does see it and still feels that the measures they've resulted are not suitably justified. we don't have enough narrative of aziraphale in this particular setting to be able to reliably gauge what aziraphale's reaction to the terror truly is.
if i were optimistic, however, i would say it was the latter, because that would indicate that aziraphale has a higher level of thought on suffering, but still finds that the terror is unjustifiable - i think that would be a perfectly fair conclusion to arrive at, objectively. but unfortunately i think it is the former - that he doesn't really stop to consider why the people are revolting, doesn't see why the objectively awful thing they are doing may actually have moral justification, and what has driven them to these extremes. again, we don't know the reason why this might pose internal conflict for aziraphale... but we definitely do in 1827.
everyone knows this minisode, i think; a lot of it hinges on aziraphale being faced point-blank with reconciling why morality is not binary, and is always dualistic. he sees elspeth digging up bodies, desecrating them, and selling them to a surgeon for money. this is bad. he justifies his conviction because it is an immoral thing to do, and instead elspeth should have chosen another, more righteous, good, path. crowley correctly points out that that is difficult - if not impossible - when to do good is not an option that you can afford, or it has not been afforded to you. aziraphale argues that in fact to have experienced suffering, to start from the bottom, gives you more opportunities and more choices to chose the good thing simply because it's good. he further argues that it is ineffable, and that suffering is ultimately for a Reason.
but then he learns what is done with the bodies. he cradles the tumour of a young boy that didn't survive because doctors and surgeons didn't know what it was. he is confronted with the prospect that what he believes to be bad is in fact good, because it leads in this instance to human advancement and the possibility of ending suffering to more people. and he still misses the point. it's not as simple as switching out the label, because nothing is wholly good or bad; everything is a bit of both.
digging up bodies has the potential to hurt the people that mourn that person, but it educates others into ensuring that medically-preventable death doesn't need to happen. you could extrapolate this to elspeth - giving her the money doesn't guarantee her a better life, it could even make her a target, but it gives her a chance to feed and house herself away from the streets. preventing her suicide is good because her life is worth living and she could give and do so much, but she'll now presumably live her life suffering through the grief of losing morag. all he - and crowley - can do is give her the choice, and that is the right thing.
i think the ultimate issue with aziraphale being confronted with the suffering of humanity is that it directly plunges his belief into crisis, and specifically the belief that god is good, that god is benevolent, and god is ineffable. he watches as people suffer - all the examples ive listed above - and it directly contradicts his steadfast confidence in god and her action/inaction, because it leads to the question 'why'. further than that - what if he doesn't agree with the answer, if it's ever given? he definitely sees and acknowledges suffering, but doesn't look deeper into why they are given suffering in the first place, because of what answer he could potentially find.
aziraphale opts to turn a blind eye, to deliberately not see it, because he is scared of the possibility that he doesn't agree. he might not even realise he's doing it; that he's avoiding confronting the fact that he might not like what he finds. as i alluded to in the golgotha example, to potentially know more would be to place him in the position of god; able - and potentially enticed - to change the paths that people are going down that they should be able to follow or divert off of by their own choice.
heres where i come to the example of maggie; she is struggling with paying the rent, and resolves to move out. aziraphale initially doesn't fully comprehend that she cannot pay, just chalks it up to him being absent-minded and forgets the concept of not being able to pay for things, but when she clarifies, he offers up the opportunity to just forget the debt. ultimately, it means nothing to him, but i don't think he means this in a superior way; he's a supernatural, millions-year-old being where money is frankly irrelevant. its obvious that forgiving the debt, regardless, benefits him, and acts as his main motivator (and he even acknowledges this to crowley, "it hardly counts; a purely selfish action."), but he is being indirectly benevolent and kind through that selfish action. a bit of good, a bit of bad. maggie is grateful, but he doesn't take any gratification from it - if anything, he looks uncomfortable.
i think it's possible that now, following his historical experiences, being in the position of being able to do good somewhat makes him more uncomfortable that he's willing to admit. because to do good like this would be to acknowledge suffering. acknowledging suffering by way of countering it puts him in the position of having to understand why the suffering exists. and if suffering exists, then that shakes his belief of god - and himself - being good in the first place.
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Where can I see HG birth chart you mentioned. Is it still an “arrangement “ or is there now love between them?
You can't. It's not online.
For LGBTQ+ we look at Uranus. If it has significant place, role in someone's chart - we can expect them to be with different sexuallity than the physically assigned one at birth.
HG does not have a prominent Uranus placement. He has many of his personal planets in 1st house of self and in 7th house of relationships.
This may seem odd or strange but if you look at 12th house Chiron - it all makes sense. His entire existence in this Earth Plane is planned around PAST LIFE CHILDHOOD TRAUMA.
Je has Pluto in 5th house in Scorpio. Child /Children will come later in life, with difficulties and will be a lifelong PASSION and OBSESSION.
Going back to the chart from a different angle: he is born on 29th. This is a KARMIC date of birth. Souls born on this date have CHOSEN to take on clearing the karma of those in the family that came before them and clear the path of those that will come after them.
If children are BORN and come into the family before the ancestral karma is worked on - such children feel like a burden and like not belonging. If they come after - they will be a blessing.
A blessing is not a cure, cuddly, obedient child. A blessing is a child that you feel has your character traits, your smile, looks like you and you life them more than life itself for it.
Now- souls who CHOOSE to reincarnate into the lineage that needs divine purification are usually the ones who created the knots in the tapestry of this family's lifeline.
(Exception is - if the lifeline is cut off or dies out like the one of the guy who created the plastic. in such cases the soul moves to a family line close to their karmic behaviors - like the glitter producers).
It is highly possible that HG is the reincarnation of someone in his family who had started it all.
Now, what is that ALL. If we turn to numerology - HG has a karmic debt. This is his PERSONAL karmic debt. It is about over-indulging because he can. It is of no coincidence that he was given not only the oppulence but also the responsibilities at an early age from the passing of his father. It is a blessing really.
He needs to develop self-discipline when it comes to self-indulgence and when it comes to other people and commitments - he needs to work on showing his vulnerability but also making sure that he is not overtrusting the wrong people.
This is about his personal karma. It will be a challenge one way or another his whole life.
However, he is here as a beacon of light for his ancestors. They will support him, the from beyond support is tremendous. BUT the WORK on cleaning up his ancestral dust bin is ON HIM. So he needed to be nudged to work on his personal karma quicker.
Now, the Chiron in Cancer wound. He can find in his family history this ancestor. And will be a good exercise to see how down the line every single one of his ancestors felt it and since he became a duke at a fairly young age he can feel it as the burden of all before him on his shoulder.
This is the burden of: "Love does not exist. It exists. But maybe not for me. I am worthy and attractive with what I can offer, not with my bare CORE. To others I am nothing. A dollar sign or a favourable connection. I can fight it but then I'll still not find THE Love. I value RESPECT. I want to be respectable. A marriage deal will give me this. And LOVE - who needs it anyway. "
His big lesson is to find his worth beyond the worth of his posessions. If there is an arrangement and such arrangements have been done since the beginning of his family's history, then he can meditate on BEING LOVABLE.
There is a famous hypnotist - Marisa Pier. She has one such self-hypnosis audio about remembering that you are lovable.
Respect is something that also starts with self-respect. If someone wants to marry your posessions, then they are seeing your self-worth as NILL.
"is there now love between them" - that is a good question for contestants in martied at first sight type of show. We are not in this scenario so I am not sure if this is good question for the cards as it is now. Maybe try to reword it a little?
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