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#janeway goes 'we the federation want--'

isagrimorie · 2 months

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People give Janeway guff about not giving Kazon replicators and transporters. Still, it's proven repeatedly that giving one Kazon faction an advantage over the other would be mixing it up in an internal war that would LITERALLY shift the balance of power.

Klingons at least know the technology they have engineers, even as it's becoming a dying breed over Warriors.

TLDR in Alliance Chakotay and Tuvok convinces Janeway that making an alliance with a Kazon faction is the way to go.

And so she does finally concede on this little experiment but with a lot of reservations going in: That once they leave the infighting will go on, and might actually have been worse.

Tuvok naively thinks it might help and bring about a Federation.

B'Elanna then pushes forward Harry's sarcastic comment about forming an alliance with Seska and then at the first sign of this, Chakotay balks.

And then Janeway says something that I feel is her guiding principle in dealing with hard decisions:

Janeway: "You can't have it both ways Commander. If you want to get in the mud with the Kazon you can't start complaining that you might get dirty."

Again, this is what I love about Janeway -- she gets flack for it but when Janeway makes a decision no one else wants to make it.

As I've mentioned in another post in tags: #right or wrong#i admire how janeway is always the one#who goes#the buck stops with me#she makes the hard choices on voyager#especially during debates#when the staff just goes around and around in circles#like in memorial where she starts just in the background#listening to the senior staff debate#from how janeway started in episode 2 of season 1#where she's presented with the horrific#sophie's choice of neelix dying because he has no lungs#and then subjecting another person to the same fate#to the (now boring debate about tuvix)#to this moment#to the moment on the memorial episode#she will take on that burden#and she will always stare at the hardest choice unflinchingly#because someone has to#as the 12th doctor once said#sometimes all your choices are bad ones#but you still have to choose#

In this episode, she allowed herself to be persuaded but she's not sold on it. But she's letting her crew run with it -- okay so we do this, but if we do this, we commit to it. And yet, at the first uncomfortable decisions... there's already balking. This was Janeway testing the waters if any other person on her senior staff could carry water about making the hard choices.

So far the ones who have stepped up were B'Elanna, Tom, and Neelix.

Anyway, I wish there was more fallout on the whole Kazon vs Trabe conflict because that was actually interesting.

But also Voyager had a Doctor Who problem -- if they meddle in the affairs of a spatial politik, they don't know the repercussions of their actions and just look at Living Witness and the reputation Voyager gained simply by doing a bit of a trade deal.

Voyager can help when they can, see: helping Brenari refugees escape the Devore. (Counterpoint).

But they can't and shouldn't really interfere with internal politics. They're not like DS9 where they can stay in one place and fix things permanently. They're just passing through.

This is also why I think she wasn't really considering Tuvok and Chakotay's thing during the Void episode where they raid another ship's resources. (Also, because after Ransom and Equinox, she knows what faltering in the Federation principles can do).

Crucially, she's also known both Chakotay and Tuvok enough that while she loves them -- Janeway knows neither men have the stomach for their proposals.

The Alliance episode was one example of that already.

Janeway, though, if she is pushed to make that commitment and there was absolutely NO way they can prevent raiding others-- Janeway would have committed to that action 110%. This is why I feel Janeway would actually come to a similar conclusion as Sisko in In the Pale Moonlight.

Especially, if she gets daily reports of Starfleet casualties. I have a feeling, there would be less kicking and screaming when Garak finally does his reveal.

Janeway has rules for a reason. She is fastidious about it. For a reason. Because once she commits to an action, it will take both hell and high water to take her off that course.

/edited

#star trek voyager #kathryn janeway #voyager s2 #(what is it about briefing room scenes in early seasons #why is it so inert? the only thing keeping the scene #interesting was kate mulgrew's force of personality)

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atopfourthwall · 9 months

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Watching thru Star Trek Voyager for the first time. Do you like this series if so, favorite episode?

Posting my full thoughts below a read more because spoilers. But it's a mixed bag at best, favorite episode the two-parter Scorpion.

It's biggest issue is that it refuses to abide by its central concept: a Starfleet vessel lost 70,000 lightyears from home with few resources and in a place the Federation have never been to, made up of a mixed crew of both Starfleet and the Maquis - a rogue terrorist organization set on freedom from Cardassian oppression due to shitty treaties the Federation made in the name of peace.

Voyager goes for seven years and you would think with a premise like this, the ship should be a WRECK by the time it gets home - barely held together with duct tape, flickering lights and debris in spots because there just isn't time or necessity to deal with minor stuff like that when there are bigger concerns to deal with. You'd think the crew has gotten more lax, dirtier or with more rolled up sleeves and casualwear as the situation has made them less of a formal structure like a regular Starfleet vessel and more like a found family, maybe with a ton of alien crewmembers from the Delta Quadrant who have decided to join Voyager along the way because they (and the Federation by proxy) have offered something that wasn't present in their corner of the galaxy, something better and they want to join the mission back home. You'd think the ship itself would have changed in appearance as they've had to patch it with technology and because they don't have regular drydocks to replace lost/damaged systems and bulkheads. Sure, Star Trek has replicator technology, but I can't imagine Voyager has MASSIVE replication technology capable of creating HUGE swaths of the hull. At the very least, you'd think you'd see cracks in the hull hastily sealed up - maybe a kind of Kintsugi thing where the cracks are a different color because of special alien material used to keep it strong. You'd think those Maquis crewmembers, despite being former Starfleet, wouldn't be wearing Starfleet uniforms because why would they? They're here because they're stuck and what's Starfleet going to do if they haven't shined their boots? Throw them all in the brig for however long it takes to get home? More interpersonal conflicts between crewmen as they have to find a way to live together, have different approaches to solving problems, maybe deal with the crippling loneliness and despair that comes with thinking you may never make it home (either because of the dangers of space travel or just because it'll be 70 years on our current technology to get there).

But no. Nothing like that ever happens in Voyager.

Because it followed the pattern that had made Star Trek TNG so successful (despite it having a premise that DEMANDS more serialization), every episode the reset button is pressed. The ship is restored to normal, character development is rare or confined to a single episode. The few attempts at serialization are just… badly written (or just met with a shrug), which probably explains why they mostly dropped it in later seasons. You'd be forgiven for watching the first episode and then the last while thinking "Wow, not much changed except for Janeway's hairstyle."

Oh, but there WAS change… just not very much. A new cast member to replace one leaving… and a character brought on to be the breakout character - one of the few times we brought on new crew from this part of the galaxy - was shuffled away the episode beforehand because inexplicably some of his people were farther out than they ever should have been and he decided to stay with them because he met them for a few days. A romance between cast members that… was okay, but not great. Another romance introduced at the last second because they needed one of their characters to actually DO something because they had spent 7 years inventing boring hobbies and interests for him separate from his identity as fake-90s-Native American-whose-entire-culture-was-thought-up-by-a-fraud-who-tricked-Hollywood-into-thinking-he-knew-what-he-was-talking-about.

A lot of plots could have happened on any other Trek show. A lot of plots dealt with "Hey, maybe we'll get home THIS time!" and they of course would not. They invented a whole new way of propulsion that allowed you to be in every spot in the universe at once (and easily reversed the negative side effects by the end of the episode)… aaand then just pretended it never happened. The recurring villain enemies ranged from godawful to okay, but not fully realized.

Behind the scenes it was often full of office politics before actual quality. Whenever an episode needed some padding? Add technobabble. Have an ambitious idea for an episode? Nope, we're not interested in anything challenging. Do anything that might make the characters look bad or have more shades to them? Noooope. There were plans and ideas, things thrown out like, for instance, a year-long storyline where the ship would get as battered as I suggested… and it was shot down, turned into a two-parter with the reset button pushed hard at the end of it.

There's plenty to like about Voyager. Some really do love the characters and I like a lot of them, too. And there are plenty of episodes that I recommend and really enjoy and rewatch… but it's mostly wasted potential. It's telling that Ron Moore, who joined Voyager's writing staff after Deep Space 9 ended because he wanted to keep doing Star Trek, left after only 3 episodes… and went on to make the Battlestar Galactica remake, which for all its flaws did the Voyager concept considerably better and with all of those ideas I mentioned up top concerning the crew, the damage to the ship, the shades of grey, the hopelesness at times but still hope, etc.

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clementine-kesh · 1 year

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oh fuck yeah harry kim meta for the win!! if it's alright, can you elaborate on harry being 'as starfleet as they come'? (maybe even comparing him to *picard's* idea of what starfleet is and should be? i think they're interesting individuals to put side by side.) thanks!

hell yeah i’m always down to talk meta! by “as starfleet as they come” i was mostly referring to him being the picture perfect model ensign type. you know, top of his class, did a ton of extracurriculars, someone who was happy and thriving within the system. a system i doubt he ever questioned pre-voyager, either. plus, he’s ambitious and has the skills to match. see: non sequitur, where in the alternate timeline he was less than a year out of the academy and already presenting the first update to starfleet’s shuttles in 50 years. it’s not a stretch to say he’d have worked his way up the ladder pretty quickly were he not trapped on voyager.

but of course starfleet is more than just academic performance or scientific knowledge. it’s about people, seeking out new life and learning from it, and harry’s a great example of someone who embodies that. he’s a character who doesn’t assume things about other people and does his best to meet them at their level. there are two scenes that illustrate this really well, the first is when he and tom are eating dinner and he wants to invite janeway to eat with them and tom thinks it’s a bad idea to which harry’s like well who else is she gonna eat with, and the second is when he expresses interest in seven and tom’s like ew wtf dude she’s a borg and harry retorts with well there’s a woman in there, too. in both cases you have someone making assumptions about someone else and harry pushing back on it by being like no they’re a person just like us and we should do our best to connect with them. see also warhead when harry’s like “we’re not transporting this mysterious ai device on board” and the doctor’s like “but it’s just like me 🥺” and that’s what convinces harry. harry might be an engineer by training but his real superpower lies in diplomacy.

contrast that with picard, who is also a very skilled diplomat, but the key difference is that picard is loyal to institutions and harry is loyal to people. harry’s out there pulling shit like staging a mutiny and violating the temporal prime directive just to save his friends. stuff that goes directly against every rule in starfleet’s book. picard could NEVER. he’s a needs of the many kinda guy whereas harry says fuck that everyone matters!! shit hits the fan and harry will always choose to help people over any perceived moral high ground or sense of duty. maybe if harry hadn’t been thrown into the psychological maelstrom of voyager he would’ve turned out more like picard but thank god he didn’t because let’s be real, he’s way more interesting of a character because he’s a little messed up and has some moral ambiguity to him.

i think picard’s vision of starfleet is very much one that exemplifies a lofty sense of enlightenment, of being the pinnacle of civilization. whereas harry’s is way more about actually helping people no matter who they are. see: picard’s reaction to members of the maquis vs. harry’s. picard gets all high and mighty and pissed about them betraying the federation while harry takes a step back and tries to find common ground. if picard were on voyager he probably would’ve been a lot more like lieutenant carey and bitched about the maquis instead of actually trying to work with. becoming best friends with one? again, picard could NEVER

#star trek #voyager

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stitching-in-time · 7 days

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Voyager rewatch s2 ep 14: Alliances

I didn't remember this one, so it was an interesting watch. I like the idea of Voyager trying to find allies in the Delta Quadrant, but the first place they looked being the Kazon was... a weird choice, to put it nicely.

First of all, Chakotay coming to the Captain and being all 'the Kazon are attacking all the time, our Starfleet rules are clearly the problem!' was a little nonsensical, and then he offered absolutely no suggestion for what to do instead of what they were already doing, so that whole scene was kind of a head scratcher. (Chakotay has been kind of a bitchy jerk these past few episodes- why? To what end? Why do the writers constantly try to undermine their main characters on this show??)

The former Maquis crewmen being in favor of giving the Kazon what they want in the hopes they'd go away was an interesting plot development, and I actually do kind of like it when they point out that the two crews haven't actually become the Brady Bunch yet at this point. It was obviously put there to set up later plot points down the line, but Captain Janeway's unequivical response that she would blow up the ship before she'd give the Kazon any part of it was, frankly, badass as hell, and I'm 100% with her. I would die for her tbh, what a queen.

Tuvok being in favor of allying themselves with the Kazon was a little out of character I feel, since he usually advocates caution in nearly every situation. His likening it to the peace treaty between the Federation and the Klingons was a bit of a false equivalency, since the Federation and the Klingons had dealt with each other for centuries before that treaty was made, and they occupied the same reagion of space permanently and knew each other's cultures and motives pretty well after all that time. Considering that was not the case with the Kazon, it did seem like a pretty dumb idea to try to make an alliance with the people who have been actively attacking them from day one.

But anyway, The Captain decides to do it, and almost everybody is like 'omg no!' including Chakotay, who whined to her about it in the first place, and she rightly calls out his hypocrisy in wanting to do something unconventional and then balking when it wouldn't be fun or easy.

I love how B'Elanna was one of the few people to unequivically support the Captain, even to her former Maquis friends when they try to appeal to her Maquis loyalties. She's really come a long way from the first ep when she questioned who the hell Janeway was to give them orders, to telling her Maquis friend not to question Janeway's orders in front of her. I love how B'Elanna has come to trust the Captain so completely in this short time, the respect and friendship that's grown between them is so wonderful, and one of my favorite things in these early seasons.

I hated the scene where Neelix goes to a bar on a planet to get his friend to persuade one of the Kazon sects to ally with Voyager. There was absolutely no reason they needed to have a half naked dancing girl in a bikini in that scene at all, let alone dancing around in the background of the whole scene. Aside from being sick of gratuitous female nudity in everything (and a thong where you could see her whole ass counts as nudity, how were they even allowed to do that on network TV in those days??) I'm sick of the implication that the entire universe is catered to the tastes of straight men from patriarchal societies. Where are the half naked male dancers?? Oh, they don't exist?? The whole universe is made to cater to straight men who enjoy exploiting women?? Sure, Jan. Gag me with a spoon.

Also hated how they just had to keep bringing up how the Kazon hated negotiating with a woman. Creating ragingly misogynist villains on the first series with a female captain was a total dick move. When we should've just been able to have a female character being large and in charge without regard to gender, instead we get constant reminders that she's a woman, and therefore should be considered lesser. I don't care that it was the villains saying it, it's still a gross and shitty thing to throw in the way of a female lead in a world where a lot of people did, and still do, actually feel that way. Why does their garbage viewpoint even get a space at the table? That attitude does not deserve a platform, and Star Trek should be the last one to give it to them.

The maquis guy trying to contact Seska was kind of odd after they found out she was a Cardassian spy (they told the rest of the crew about that, right?? Idk, maybe not lol). You'd think the Maquis, who had been fighting the Cardassians, would hate her most of all, but it's an interesting idea to have all these rogue crewmembers working with the enemy, and it does set up the potential for future conflicts, so I'll go with it.

The Kazon's former oppressors the Trabe being introduced as refugees on the planet, fleeing the Kazon, was a nice twist, and explaining that the Kazon's ships were all stolen from them finally made the Kazon having ships make sense. Allying with the Trabe seemingly made more sense, but the way the Trabe leader was being played seemed kind of insincere, so his betrayal at the conference at the end was pretty easy to see coming, even though I truly didn't remember anything from this episode at all.

In the end, the lesson we learned here was what I thought from the beginning- that they were too new to the Delta Quadrant to be wading into any kind of politics with people they don't really know, and that Captain Janeway was right all along in sticking to their Starfleet mission and principles. Surprise! (But not really.)

I appreciated that it tried to do something a little different in getting more into the politics of the Delta Quadrant, but unfortunately, the Kazon are such one dimensional villains that it made the whole story a bit uninteresting and unbelieveable.

Tl;dr: An attempt to do more of a political story that didn't quite work, but which introduced some interesting plot points to explore in later episodes.

#star trek: voyager #voyager rewatch #rewatching star trek #star trek voyager #star trek

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the-lady-general · 1 year

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I didn't watch Picard because I don't like the River Tam concept and I don't get on with Picard the character, but did Memory Alpha get that right about synthetics being dismantled? In the Federation? Where they're recognised as sentient life? And the articles of the Federation value the self-determin and dignity of all sentient life? What the fuck. What the fuck? Just as a set up? As the justification for a five minute Picard speech? So after the entire senior crew fought for Vic, Kira is just going to step up to Quark and tell him "End programme in Vic's holosuite, that's an order"? They're going to find B4 and pull him to bits? They'll take the Doctor's mobile emitter and throw it in a matter reclaimer while Janeway is just happily on her wawould Vice Admiral and just like "too bad too sad never mind"?

DS9 did genocide ONCE, as the desperate, last ditch solution to a war so big it took everyone except the Dominion several seasons to understand HOW BIG it was going to be. We had the invisible beaming mines, the war of attrition, every model of a Miranda space ship that they could find in LA hobby stores blown up, several scenes with several characters going over casualty lists, the loss of Betazed, It's Only a Paper Moon, In the Pale Moonlight, Sacrifice of Angels with all its deaths, and the club of illegal geniuses projecting hundreds and hundreds of billions of deaths. And then one fringe group of one department within one organisation of one faction goes ahead with the genocide as a top secret move that nobody in the Federation government ever got to see because even the guys responsible for it specifically said "What we're doing is evil and no Federation official should ever be confronted with that choice because even seriously considering it is monstrous". Those were the bad guys that said that.

And the Picard Federation government can just sign genocide into its constitution like on a Tuesday? Without investigations and research and risk assessment and proposals and elections, votes of no confidence, parliament walkouts, massive civil unrest and mass protest from Starfleet, who have been working with androids and holograms pretty fucking closely for a while?

I don't like it when people point to DS9, which is precious baby bear, and say it's too dark and not Star Trek enough. Because the whole point they were making the entire time was always "dire circumstances will make you want to abandon your principles, and if or when you do, it will be a tragedy". But then we get Captain Brainy with the genocide as a set up? Without a deep fucking exploration of what that means for Federation society at large? I mean, prohibiting the creation of new synthetics is bad enough, but dismantling existing ones crosses a pretty fucking significant line. Trust in any government person or organisation that did anything less than vocal protest at the knee-jerk, overnight abandonment of the Federation's most important principle should be impossible. Because that means that the people that lead Federation society were always ready to kill an entire segment of its population for reasons that are totally outside of their control. First they came for the Androids style.

And can you imagine actually being in Section 31 for that shit? Because they're evil. They fucking keep saying so themselves. Sisko's In the Pale Moonlight monologue is just business as usual for them. But even those fuckheads do what they do because they're convinced that the average citizen and government and society should never have the chance to become monsters. They're perversely convinced that they're committing evil so that the Federation at large can stand up for the self-determination and dignity of all sentient life. And then they come in to work one day and see that there's just a kill order on an entire group of Federation citizens for something that is entirely outside of their control. Imagine having sold your conscience for that. I'd go apeshit. Step Two would bombing the Federation HQ. I think that would be a measured and sane response.

When the fuck did Lower Decks become the only watchable Star Trek? (Strange New Worlds, You're On Thin Fucking Ice.) When did Star Wars become the TV show that delivers poignant, thought-provoking storylines about human nature and the extremes we can be driven to under hardship, and the importance of friends and community and sticking up for another (hi, Andor), while so much live action Star Trek is shooting for explosion creep action movie where the bad guys consistently end up being the guys who should embody the ideals?

#the lady general rambles #more like the lady general got lost on memory alpha and had a kneejerk reaction without knowing or caring for the context #turning my personal problems into nerd rants about star trek 😎👉👉#in which section 31 of all people almost get good guy status somehow #i like the principles of the federation and what the federation appears to be doing isn't very principles of the federation of them #dead dove do not read #is this enough tags yet not to kill the vibe in hashtag star trek #star trek

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galactic-pirates · 1 year

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Ok I’m going to do it. New drinking game (in no particular order):

Personal anti-wishlist aka do NOT want predictions for Picard Season 3 finale

Screentime is limited. Raffi is either not seen or only in background shots. It’s explained she is trying to sabotage the Titan’s engines or something if she is mentioned at all. Seven and Raffi are barely (if at all) on screen together and their relationship is never mentioned.

Seven is shown carting Shaw to sickbay. She uses her Borg nanites (hello Voyager callback) to help bring him back to life. This doesn’t make him a Borg it is just temporary. Shaw is not grateful and chews her out for it. Says she isn’t StarFleet. Seven agrees and resigns.

There is no Saffi spin-off, no Fenris Rangers. Raffi is never seen again. Seven is either never seen again or…

Shaw gets his own show spin-off. Possibly Seven guest stars one episode so he can save her life, and show he is magnanimous while still pressing the point that he was right and she was never StarFleet.

As part of being magnanimous Shaw pays Seven a compliment. Only it’s something backhanded like “you made really good coffee” and the writers think fans will be happy at the nod to Janeway, and completely overlook the fact that in the 25th century a brilliant woman is reduced to being ‘good at making drinks’.

The only assimilated we see get killed/do bad things are aliens, POC or both.

At the end Geordi is seen hugging his two crying girls and Sydney apologises to him and goes home with him. As part of the end montage she is shown handing him tools to fix the battle damage on the Enterprise-D because fuck that she had dreams of her own to be a pilot I guess.

To gain an advantage in battle Picard uses the “Picard manoeuvre”. Bonus points if it doesn’t make sense as to how it would help.

Even though Vulcan, Klingons etc. have a lot of their own ships nobody can/will help them against the assimilated fleet. Only the Enterprise is fighting the good fight. Sort of like an oblique reference to the hopefulness regarding the Federation shown in Prodigy. That was where StarFleet ships were all taken over by an external force and made to attack each other…. wait a minute *deep sigh* but anyway nobody helps because fuck that stupid kid show right? 😔

Somebody very gravely says “we are on our own”. Despite being decades older, and the odds being 50-1, the Enterprise is so special it manages to hold it’s own in battle long enough for Jack and Picard to save the day.

Even though he is assimilated and it should be impossible Jack is ‘special’ and Picard manages to reach him through his special Dad bond (fuck Beverley as the mother who raised him I guess), and Jack manages to sever the connection/put them to sleep/stop all the StarFleet assimilated.

In a parallel to Nemesis the Borg Queen self-destructs. Picard tells Data to get Jack off the ship and he has to stay behind. They both could have escaped given Picard spent a minute monologuing about friendship and family but he has to sacrifice himself like Data did in reverse.

As the unassimilated were murdered the changelings were all killed. Why/how they teamed up with the Borg, what happened to the people they impersonated etc. is never explained. They are dead, the situation is tied up with a bow. And this “they are all dead” is only an off-hand mention in a single sentence.

Despite name-dropping her Janeway neither appears nor is mentioned unless she comes in for a cameo at the end to lead the memorial/give Jack his medal/commission etc.

Hundreds were killed but the big memorial service only focuses on Picard and how he is the most legendary of all StarFleet heroes.

Jack is given command/made Captain of the new Enterprise even though it’s the flagship, he never went to the academy and has no experience. This is possibly done at said memorial service.

Inexplicably Worf is security, Beverley CMO, Deanna counsellor and Riker as first officer. This is seen with “Captain on the bridge” when Jack walks in. They all look very proud.

Kestra is never mentioned. Who is looking after her, where she is etc. is never explained.

The last line reveals Jack has taken the name Picard so he is “Captain Picard” like his dad and he says the legendary ‘Engage’.

I really hope I don’t reblog this next Friday and cross a lot off. I just really hate how damn plausible I think this list is 😭 this is a do NOT want list universe. Don’t get confused now. This is like worst case scenario for where they could go (in my opinion). So let’s really hope not. Unless of course I have had a failure of imagination and it is even worse somehow 😬

#star trek: picard #picard spoilers #as it references events of episode 9 #sam rambles (a lot)#I've been adding to this all morning hopefully I don't think of anything else once I click post

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delta-queerdrant · 1 year

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Have you ever considered a career in medicine? (s1, e5)

Still a one-handed typist, I have begun tapping out these reviews on my phone, because COMMITMENT. (Also I am well into Season 2 and in danger of losing track of the moving parts in this, ahem, intricately plotted show.)

In “The Phage,” the Vidiians make their first appearance (courtesy the Voyager makeup department), Neelix's lungs are stolen & his deficits as a space hobbit boyfriend are showcased, Kes embarks on her medical career, and Janeway appears in her enduring role as wannabe space cop operating without the force of the state behind her.

Neelix, my dude! I like so much about the energy this character brings to this show - open-flame cooking on a starship; print fabrics that belong in the homewares section of a 90s-era Sears catalog. Perhaps, too, I love Neelix because of my anxious-avoidant attachment style. I am drawn to the perverse fantasy that, instead of turning everything inward, I could just be Too Much all the time, continually vomiting my own exaggerated feelings with a side of Oscar Wilde-esque deflection about the unflattering wallpaper.

This is a Jealous Neelix episode. I have little time for romantic jealousy as a storytelling trope - it almost always fails to capture the nuanced ways in which desire (to be seen, valued, centered) operates in our lives. Inevitably these stories are fixated on solving the question of The Rival - does he like her? Does she like that he likes her? A healthy relationship is one in which jealousy and ambiguity are absent, and boundaries are something to be erected, once, against the outside world, rather than continuously and collaboratively negotiated.

All this to say that Neelix and Kes's dynamic in this episode feels off not just because Neelix is a tool (he is), but because Tom Paris is a Quantum Flirt, an absolute nothing placeholder of a character. Is he making the moves on Kes? I have literally no idea, and neither does the show. Certainly his bland kindness as he guides her through medical decisions for her partner has nothing to do with the self-involved, wisecracking, rough-around-the-edges Tom Paris we have had intimations of in previous episodes. The show's agnostic stance of "sometimes men and women see reality differently, who can say?" relies on the incoherence of Robert Duncan McNeill's performance, and will continue to do so for episodes to come.

Against this messy dynamic we’re given a small gift, the first overtures of mentorship and friendship between the Doctor and Kes. This show is at its best when it's combining science adventures with relationships, and as a result, these two do so much to carry the show through the first couple seasons.

When they catch up with the organ thieves, Janeway is faced with the first of many scenarios in which she wants to send people to Forever Jail and can't. I have many questions about the Federation's criminal justice system. Does it really goes about prosecuting people for crimes that would be better handled by high-level diplomatic negotiations? Like, however you feel about prisons, if the Vidiians are systematically yoinking people's organs, surely imprisoning individual wrongdoers is the wrong move?

At any rate, Janeway cannot forever jail the Vidiians and instead delivers her first "I am an empathetic decision-maker whose heartstrings have been tugged, but also, stay the FUCK away from my ship" lecture. It is a good speech and I suppose there are worse ways to handle conflict. In more ways than one, this is an episode about setting boundaries.

I will end with the very funny image of Janeway eating her meals alone in stately privacy had Neelix not taken over her dining room. Where do our bosses eat their meals? I always imagine them having solitary boxed lunches in their offices, like Victorians sequestered in country houses. Authority must, at times, be a lonely thing.

I’ll award this one 3 out of 5 cytoplasmic stimulators.

#star trek #star trek voyager #janeway #neelix #either the sickbay goes or I do

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itsclydebitches · 3 years

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ngl voyager gets a whole lot of very disproportional hate from the fandom and i'd hazard a guess that a lot of that is just garden-variety misogyny (and probably racism mixed in, considering how many of the most prominent characters are women, poc, or both). like, is voyager perfect? absolutely not. and no spoilers but there was a lot of executive meddling that wound up leading to the finale/conclusion being lacking and there's a lot of reasonable dissatisfaction with that--but again that was largely thanks to the execs fucking the show over and i recommend looking into that if you can once you've finished the show. but overall? voyager is trek right to its very core--it has heart, it's about family, and it never loses sight of that imo, even if some episodes are weaker or just duds (but, like, would it be a trek series without some episodes that just kinda suck but are still fun to watch???)

anyway, i absolutely love that you're getting into voyager, it is my all-time favorite trek series to this day for a lot of reasons, and i hope that ppl like that anon dont put you off bc i'd love to continue to see your thoughts as you watch the series!

Oh, it would take a whole lot more than some anons being salty that others enjoy things to turn me off :D

Thus far (I lost internet last night so I’m still only on Episode 7 of Season 2), Voyager is the Trekiest Trek I’ve watched. Which is a weird sentence, but I mean it in the way you said it’s “trek right to its very core.” What is Star Trek, if we strip the intent of the story down to its basics? It’s about exploration, discovery, that “wagon train to the stars,” wrapped up in the argument that life is fundamentally good. We have problems, but we can work past them. We have differences, but they strengthen us. Diversity is the lifeblood of the universe and the future will continue to improve so long as we embrace that.

Voyager is (again, from what I’ve seen so far!) basically a love song to that premise. I didn’t do too deep a dive because I’m trying to avoid spoilers, but I did look at a couple threads discussing why Voyager is so hated. Again and again I saw the same reason pop up: wasted potential. Now, a lot of fans left it at that (as if the answer to what potential Voyager apparently missed out on is self-evident. It’s not), but those who did expand on the idea consistently claimed that the show needed to be darker than it was, even if they rarely said it like that. Why aren’t the Federation and the Marquis at each other’s throats? Why isn’t the crew going crazy under these circumstances? Why aren’t characters getting killed off left and right in hostile space? “Anything could have happened out there and they played it safe!” but the “anything” here is always... awful. There’s this very pervasive idea that the world is inherently cruel, people are inherently divisive, that when pushed to the brink everything will fall apart... and that (while making for one kind of great story) is very much not Star Trek.

See, Voyager created an unimaginable scenario--lost in space, 75 years from home, forced to live indefinitely with strangers--and their answer to the question of “What happens?” is “People make it work.” They learn to respect one another, they uphold their ideals, they maintain a love of life and discovery, and they create a family. And that’s fucking fantastic. That’s Star Trek! I’m not going to pretend there aren’t problems with the show, with plenty more to come, I’m sure, but I don’t think this is one of them. Why do so many viewers think that hatred, horror, death, and growing jaded is the only potential here? Why would they expect that in a Star Trek show whose premise is the very antithesis of those things?

“But they don’t do enough with those things, even if they have happy outcomes.” They do plenty, they just do it in an episodic rather than serialized nature. I can point to multiple episodes where the replicator rations or Maquis differences are driving the characters’ actions. “But without that horror there’s no conflict.” There’s plenty of conflict. Hostile aliens aside, I just watched an episode where Tuvok and Chakotay are pissed as hell at one another because they fundamentally disagree over how to handle problems, but--because they’re adults with a well-tested respect for one another--they apologize and work through it. “But the characters don’t develop at all.” You mean they don’t grow harder. That’s not the same thing as no development. Tuvok is figuring out how to be more flexible, Chakotay is becoming more willing to accept cultures he doesn’t agree with, Harry is growing more confident now that he’s far from home, the Doctor is learning to see himself as a person, Paris is grabbing his second chance with both hands by making strong ties, and Janeway is learning to command and care for her crew simultaneously. I honestly believe that a lot of people think of “character development” as the character becoming a fundamentally different person, unrecognizable from where they started out. But characters can also grow into the people they wanted to be in the first place. “We’re far from home, in hostile territory, tempted to do horrific things to survive... but no. Right now at least, we’re holding onto who we are. We’re scientists, so we’re going to explore and learn. We’re peaceful, so we’re going to make friends with as many species as we can. We’re members of a society that teaches acceptance, so we’re going to form a family on this spaceship.” That’s incredible!! Did fans miss why Seska was an antagonist in the episode she was unmasked? Because she was trying to convince them to give up everything they believe in in the name of survival, an ends justify the means argument. And the crew said no, we will not give up what we believe in just to make it through. I legit saw a ton of fans saying some version of, “I can’t believe they were that far from home and actually followed Starfleet’s rulebook.” It’s because those rules don’t exist for the hell of it. Overlooking their practical function, they’re a philosophy that the characters believe in, and they’re figuring out how important that part of their identity is to them under these circumstances. Am I willing to steal a specie’s technology if it gets us home? Am I willing to die to help another uphold their own philosophy? (Chakotay in “Imitations”). What regulations should we bend or change to accommodate our new situation? The first two things Janeway does are a) giving the guy who just came out of a penal colony a rank and b) deciding that she needs to be more familiar with her crew than is normally encouraged for a captain because she’s essentially their mom now. Developing doesn’t have to mean characters do a 180 on their initial personality, or characters getting killed off when stuff gets “boring” so that others can do edgy things in response.

Voyager upholds Trek’s premise and runs it to its logical conclusion:

Voyager has the most literal trek--a trek back home.

Voyager has the most diverse crew--a woman Captain, Native American First officer, black Vulcan, Asian-American communications officer, and a White Dude pilot that realizes he wants to be soft and kind towards those who took a chance on him because Toxic Masculinity who?

Voyager has the most literal family--not just a 5+ year mission, but a crew who expects to raise the next generation. They have no choice but to work together, so they indeed come together rather than pulling apart

Except they do, of course, have a choice. In “The 37′s” the crew is allowed to stay on the Earth-like planet with a city of other humans and Janeway is convinced that a sizable number will choose that. After all, they may never get home and this is a safer, kinder future for them. In fact, the real question is whether so many will stay that they can no longer run the ship... but Janeway would never dictate her crew’s choices in that manner. So she swallows her worry down, opens the door...

... and finds that not a single person decided to stay behind. And the show has ensured we understand that this is not just because they all have some unshakable belief that they’ll get home (many don’t), but because this is their family now. This is home.

And fans want to toss that out for a generic, gritty, sci-fi adventure where hope is scarce, the universe is cruel, and people need to be pushed to the limit just to admit that they maybe, sort of, like each other?? Obviously like what you like, but that’s a hard pass for me. I’ll take the bridge crew comforting each other in “Twisted,” thanks. Besides, we already have shows like that. And we already have DS9 which grapples with many of those dark, pessimistic themes. Voyager feels like a breath of fresh air, even within the breath of fresh air that is Star Trek as a franchise. It’s a show that says, “Yes, when everything goes wrong people will come together. They will love each other. They will make it through.”

What’s more Star Trek than that?

#star trek #ST #mymetas #Anonymous

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ieattaperecorders · 4 years

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I’m seeing a lot of TMA Star Trek AU on my dash, and it seems largely TOS-based. I love TOS, but allow me to propose: Star Trek Voyager AU.

The crew in Voyager aren’t on a scientific mission, they’re survivors lost 70,000 light years from Earth. It’s campy fun Star Trek stuff, but instead of having the resources and support of the Federation, the crew is alone - trying to get back to known space, forced to depend on one another. Found Family ensues harder than you can possibly imagine.

Captain Sasha James!! Janeway is capable, cool-headed and good at managing the crew on a personal level, but it’s hard to really know her. The pressures of her role mean she wears masks even with people she cares for, which fits Sasha perfectly.

I’m inclined to put Tim as her First Officer – it’s a good role for him, and the Captain and First Officer must be a dynamic duo. Science Officer works for Jon, though with the reduced crew and vulnerable situation, he might end up with multiple roles. I like the idea of Martin as medic (and I’ll get more into that later, because oh boy.) Georgie can take Neelix’s role, (though she refuses to stop saying that the Admiral is the official Morale Officer and she just interprets for him.)

Half Klingon Melanie King!! Half Klingon Melanie King struggling with anger issues and frustrated with people who define her by them!! Who had to push and fight to keep from being dismissed because of her heritage!! Half Klingon Head of Engineering Melanie King!!

THE BORG. THE BORG, GUYS. Think of the possibilities that threat could present to these characters.

Danny Stoker was assimilated by the Borg. It was Tim’s motivation to join Starfleet. He refuses to talk about it until the day the crew is cornered in Borg-occupied space and makes contact with a drone that bears a disturbing resemblance to him.

(Danny Stoker as Seven of Nine and, like, twelve paragraphs of JonMartin under the cut.)

Tense standoffs ensue and the crew escapes with the Danny-drone still on their ship. Sasha (the only one Tim told about his brother) makes the risky call to subdue him and sever his link to the Collective rather than killing him.

Now Tim has the brother that he thought was gone forever, but he’s profoundly changed. He doesn’t seem like the Danny he remembers, he might even be a threat. Meanwhile Danny is lost without the Collective, struggling with the idea of individuality as well as his memories/emotions regarding Tim.

They have to negotiate around both their traumas if they want to heal and recover, but at least they have a chance to know each other again. (And the rest of the crew helps.)

Now, the chief medical officer on Voyager is a hologram - intended to be turned on only in emergencies, but left running nearly all the time due to the lack of medical staff. Over time his personality expands beyond his original programming, the others start treating him less like a computer program and more like a member of the crew, and friendships eventually develop. (It’s one of those “am I a person? What does it mean to be a person?” stories. Voyager has a lot of that.)

There’s two directions I could see that going. One is Helen/Michael slots into the role. (Either or both, who says the Emergency Medical Hologram doesn’t have two interfaces?) Personality-wise they’ve got the campy smugness, and the whole “am I a who or a what?” thing works super well. I mentioned Martin as a medic and the idea of him having to put up with Helen’s bullshit/getting to irritably banter with Helen is very good.

BUT ALTERNATELY, Martin is the medical hologram. Instead of leaning into the “inhumanity” angle, we lean into the angle of being initially overlooked/not seen as one of the crew, then slowly making meaningful connections. (Can squeeze in a “self-worth outside of what you do for others” character arc too.)

Jon is for sure the first one to treat Martin like a person. It’s a reversal of S1 Jon being an ass to him, but it feels appropriate for Jon - who can sympathize with creatures that aren’t human, even when others don’t. There’s another fun parallel - in canon, Martin continues to treat Jon like a person even as he becomes less and less human. Here, Jon treats Martin like a person from the beginning and he becomes more and more of one.

Plus, come on, think of all the “Jon gets injured and Martin has to overclock himself/push past his intended limits to save his life” scenarios. Think of Martin getting a crush on Jon early because he’s Nice To Him, panicking and trying to hide it. Think of Emergency Medical Hologram Martin taking an interest in poetry instead of opera.

The Lonely may not exist in this AU but I bet being turned off feels a lot like it : (

I like Vulcan/half Vulcan Jon, so we can slot him there. (He’s not a parallel for Tuvok, that wouldn’t fit - he’s just Jon and he’s Spock and he’s on Voyager and you’re all going to have to deal with it. Besides, “half Vulcan/caught between two worlds/struggling with the concept of Emotions” is so good for Jon.)

Now mix half Vulcan Jon in with Hologram Martin and imagine the pining. IMAGINE IT.

Jon refuses to accept he has feelings at all, let alone romantic feelings for someone else. And Martin? He isn’t even sure he’s capable of love, if what he’s feeling is real or some flaw in his programming. Jon’s nice enough to him – sometimes Martin thinks he even sees him as a friend, but surely there are limits? The absurdity of a holomatter projection thinking that it’s in love with him must be too much for even Jon to indulge.

They’ll get there after four or five seasons of mutual longing, of course. Probably in some intensely dramatic circumstance.

In fact, that’s a thought - something something backup drive holding Martin’s personality is stuck on a planet that’s incredibly toxic. (Maybe filled with poisonous fog because, of course, gotta keep the aesthetic.) Something something Vulcan physiology, Jon is the only one who can survive on the surface long enough to get it.

He has Martin’s mobile emitter with him while he goes after the drive, and the whole time Martin is trying to convince him to stop. It’s too dangerous, the planet is killing him, Martin’s given up on himself but he doesn’t want Jon to die too.

“You don’t have to do this, the default program for me is still on the ship, it can be reset.”

“That is not you. Your personality, your experiences, everything you’ve gained over these years would be lost.”

“But it has all my medical knowledge. It can do my job just as well, you’ll still have a doctor - -”

*losing all pretense of a Calm Vulcan Exterior* “I did not come here to retrieve our doctor, I came to get you back, and I am not leaving without you!!”

(Of course they get back safely and Jon immediately collapses upon returning to the ship, then it’s Martin’s turn to make sure he doesn’t die.)

Also it’s Star Trek so holograms can be solid, they’ll get those fabric rustles in don’t worry.

#tma #star trek au #tma star trek au #i cannot believe this lives in my brain now

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aion-rsa · 3 years

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Star Trek Villains Who Actually Had a Point

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This article contains spoilers for various parts of the Star Trek franchise.

Last fall, airing just a few weeks apart, both Star Trek and Star Wars debuted season premieres of new streaming TV episodes in which the heroes of each show had to fight a giant, legless worm-monster. In Star Trek: Discovery’s “That Hope Is You Part 1,” it was the deadly Tranceworm, while The Mandalorian’s “Chapter 9: The Marshall” had the murderous Krayt Dragon. The differences between the Final Frontier and the Faraway Galaxy could not have been made clearer by these dueling beasts: in Mando, the plot involved killing the monster by blowing up its guts from the inside, while in Disco, Book taught Michael Burnham how to make friends with it.

The Trek universe deals with the concept of evil a little differently than many of its famous genre competitors. There is no Lex Luthor of the Federation. Palpatine doesn’t haunt the planet Vulcan. The Klingons have no concept of “the devil.” (At least in The Original Series.) This isn’t to say Trek doesn’t have some very memorable Big Bads, it’s just that most of the time those villains tend to have some kind of sympathetic backstory. Even in the J.J. Abrams films!

So, with that in mind, here’s a look at seven Star Trek villains who maybe weren’t all bad, and kind of, even in a twisted way, had a point…

Harry Mudd

In Star Trek: The Original Series, Harry Mudd was presented as a straight-up con-man, a dude who seemed to be okay with profiting from prostitution (in “Mudd’s Women”) and was also down with marooning the entire crew of the Enterprise on a random planet (in “I, Mudd”). He’s not a good person. Not even close. But, he does make a pretty could case against Starfleet’s lack of planning. In the Discovery episode “Choose Your Pain,” Mudd accuses Starfleet of starting the war with the Klingons, and, as a result, putting the larger population of the galaxy at risk. “I sure as hell understand why the Klingons pushed back,” Mudd tells Ash Tyler. “Starfleet arrogance. Have you ever bothered to look out of your spaceships down at the little guys below? If you had, you’d realize that there’s a lot more of us down there than there are you up here, and we’re sick and tired of getting caught in your crossfire.”

Seska

At a glance, Seska seems pretty irredeemable. She joins the idealistic Maquis but is secretly a Cardassian spy. Once in the Delta Quadrant, she tries to screw Voyager as much as possible, mostly by hooking up with the Kazon. That said, Seska is also someone caught up in hopelessly sexist, male-dominated power structures and does what she has to do to gain freedom and power. The Cardassian military isn’t exactly enlightened nor kind, so the fact that Seska was recruited into the Obsidian Order in the first place certainly explains her deceptive conditioning. You could argue that Seska could have become a better person once she had Captain Janeway as an ally, but, the truth is, she was still a spy caught behind enemy lines, but suddenly without a government to report back to. So, Seska did what she had to do to survive, even lying to Chakotay about having his child. The thing is, again, outside of Starfleet, Seska is at the mercy of the sexist machinations of the Kazon, so again, she’s kind of using all the tools at her disposal to gain freedom. Had Voyager not gone to the Delta Quadrant, and Seska’s villainy may have been more clear-cut. But, once the reason for her espionage becomes moot, her situation gets more desperate, and, on some level, more understandable.

Charlie Evans

In The Original Series, Kirk loves telling humans with god-like powers where to shove it. In “Where No Man Has Gone Before,” he phasers Gary Mitchell and buries him under a rock. But, in “Charlie X,” when teenager Charlie Evans also gets psionic powers, Kirk does a less-than-a-great job of being a good role model. For most of the episode, Kirk tries to avoid become Charlies’ surrogate parent, and when he does try, it results in an embarrassing overly macho wrestling match featuring those famous pink tights.

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Charlie was a deeply troubled human being, and there was no justification for him harassing the crew and Janice Rand in specific. But, angry, kids like Charlie have to be helped before it gets to this point. Kirk mostly tried to dodge the adult responsibility of teaching Charlie the ropes, and only when some friendly aliens arrived, did everyone breathe a sigh of relief. But, don’t get it twisted, those aliens are basically just social workers, doing the hard work Starfleet is incapable of.

The Borg Queen

Because the origin of the Borg Queen has dubious canonical origins, all we were told in Voyager is that she was assimilated as a child, just like Seven of Nine. As Hugh and Jean-Luc discuss in the Picard episode “The Impossible Box,” basically, everyone assimilated by the Borg, is, on some level, a victim. The Queen was never presented this way in either First Contact or Voyager, but, at one point, writers Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens had pitched a story for Enterprise which would have featured Alice Krige as a Starfleet medical technician who made contact with the Borg.

Because both Alice Krige and Susanna Thompson played the Borg Queen, it’s possible the backstories of each Queen is different and that maybe they aren’t the same character. Either way, assuming the Borg Queen retains some level of autonomy relative to other drones (likely?) then she’s pretty much making the best of a bad situation. In fact, at the point at which you concede the Borg are unstoppable, the Queen’s desire to let Picard retain some degree of his independence as Locutus could scan as a kind of mercy. The Borg Queen actually thinks she and the Borg are making things simpler for everyone. And with both Data and Picard, she tried to make that transition easier and, in her own perverse way, fun too.

Ossyra

Yes, we saw Ossyra feed her nephew to a Trance worm, and we also saw her try to kill literally everyone on the USS Discovery, including Michael Burnham. However, in the middle of all of that, Ossyra did try to actively make peace between the Emerald Chain and the Federation. And, most tellingly, it was her idea. Ossyra also pointed out one of the most hypocritical things about the United Federation of Planets: the fact that Starfleet and its government rely on capitalism without actively acknowledging it. Essentially, Ossyra was saying that the ideals of the Federation are great, but the Federation has all kinds of dirty little secrets it doesn’t want to talk about. In her meeting with Admiral Vance, pretty much everything she said about the Federation was true—and her treaty proposal was fair.

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The only snag: she wouldn’t turn herself over as a war criminal. Considering the fact that the Federation made Mirror Georgiou into a Section 31 agent, despite her war crimes in another universe, this also seems hypocritical. Why not just do the same thing with Ossyra? Tell everyone she’s going to prison for war crimes, but make her a Section 31 agent instead? Missed opportunity!

Khan

Khan was genetically engineered by wacko-a-doodle scientists at the end of the 21st Century. At some point on Earth, he became a “prince” with “power over millions.” But, as Kirk notes in “Space Seed,” there were “no massacres” under Khan’s rule, and described him as the “best of the tyrants.” Kirk’s take on Khan in “Space Seed” is basically that Khan was an ethical megalomaniac. Most of what we see in “Space Seed” backs this up. Khan doesn’t actually want to kill the crew, and stops short of doing it when he thinks he can coerce them instead. His only focus is to gain freedom for himself and his exiled fellow-Augments. In the Kelvin Universe timeline, Khan’s motivations are similar. Into Darkness shows us a version of Khan who, again, is only cooperating with Section 31 because he wants freedom for his people. Sure, he’ll crush some skulls and crash some starships to get to that point, but in his dueling origin stories, Khan is, in both cases interested in freedom for his people, who, are by any definition, totally persecuted by the Federation.

Khan is still a criminal in any century. But, we only really think of him as a villain because he goes insane in between the “Space Seed” and The Wrath of Khan. The Khan of The Wrath is not the same person we met in “Space Seed.” As he tells Chekov, “Admiral Kirk never bothered to check on our progress.” Had Kirk sent a Starfleet ship to drop in on Khan and his “family” every once in awhile this whole thing could have been avoided. In the prime timeline, Khan goes nuts because Ceti Alpha VI explodes and nobody cares. In the Kelvin timeline, Admiral Marcus blackmails him. Considering that Khan is Star Trek’s most famous villain, it’s fascinating that there are a million different ways you can imagine him never getting as bad as he became. In “Space Seed,” he and Kirk basically part as friends.

In “Encounter at Farpoint,” Q accuses humanity of being “a savage child race.” And walks Jean-Luc Picard through the various atrocities committed by humanity, through the 21st Century. Picard kind of shrugs his shoulders and says, “we are what we are and we’re doing the best that we can.” When we talk about the philosophy of Star Trek, we tend to give more weight to Picard’s argument: the idea that by the 24th century, humanity has become much better, in general than it is now. But, the other side of the argument; that there’s a history of unspeakable violence and cruelty baked into the existence of humanity, is given less weight. We don’t really listen to Q when he’s putting humanity on trial, because we can’t see his point of view.

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But, because Q wasn’t a one-off character, and because he said “the trial never ends” in the TNG finale, he’s actually not really a villain at all. Q exists post-morality, as we can imagine it. His notions of ethics are far more complex (or less complex) than we can perceive. Q is one of those great Star Trek characters who is actually beyond reproach simply because we have no frame of reference for his experiences or point of view. In Voyager, we also learned that even among other members of the Q Continuum, Q was kinder, with a more humanitarian approach to what he might call “lesser” lifeforms. If Q is villainous, it’s because of our definitions of villainy. Of every Star Trek antagonist, Q is the best one, for the simple fact that he’s not a a villain at all.

Which Star Trek villains do you think had a point? Let us know in the comments below.

The post Star Trek Villains Who Actually Had a Point appeared first on Den of Geek.

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antimatterpod · 3 years

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Transcript - 72. What About Manperson?

This transcript is SO LARGE that the first eight attempts to share it broke Tumblr. (Tumblr, sweetheart, it’s a plain text file, if Usenet and dial-up could handle it, I’m sure you can cope.)

You can listen to the original episode here.

Anika: Welcome to Antimatter Pod, a Star Trek podcast where we discuss fashion, feminism, subtext and subspace, hosted by Anika and Liz. This week, we're taking a trip back to 1977 to discuss a write up of a panel on 'feminism in Treklit'.

Liz: And I pushed for this one because I promised us [an episode about] zines, and I had misremembered where the zine archive was. And then I stumbled across this essay, and it was so interesting and wild, and I figured we could probably get some discussion out of it.

Anika: Absolutely. I just want to start by saying that 'Treklit' is the cutest little word ever.

Liz: I know!

Anika: 'Treklit'. I love it so much.

Liz: And there's no, "Oh, no, we mustn't call it literature. It's just fan fiction" about it. Because there were no tie-in novels back then, there were just a handful of novelizations and so forth. So go for it, ladies!

Anika: Really bad ones, too.

Liz: Yeah, yeah.

Anika: I've read those. They're bad.

Liz: The panelists in this discussion were Sharon Ferraro, who was a zine publisher, fic writer and con organizer, and Jean Lorrah, a fic writer, novelist and editor, who would go on to write tie-in fiction, including The Vulcan Academy Murders and the TNG novel Survivors, which we discussed in our tie-in fiction episode. And this panel took place at SekwesterCon in 1976. It was tape-recorded by one fan and written up by the [convention] organizers for a zine.

Anika: Which is also adorable.

Liz: I know! And it sounds like just the whole room got into it. And it was so interesting! I can only imagine the drama if this panel was held today, because they sit down and start calling out authors and fics by name and title. And one of the authors stands up and argues back. And it's just wildly interesting, and a snapshot of fandom, and fic writing fandom, at the time.

Anika: Amazing. You put that note, you know, "Can you imagine if this panel was held today," and I was thinking about it, I was like, it sort of is, but it's in social media and in comments.

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: But like, even there, there's not really so much of a -- there's a lot of discourse, you know how we use that word now, "discourse", sort of to mean something completely different than what it actually means.

But if there's that there's still sort of this, etiquette to it, I would say. If someone leaves you a nasty comment on a fic and you didn't ask for it, everybody will come in and say, "That was inappropriate, you shouldn't have done that."

And even online, if you're going to say, "Oh, I've just read this horrible Star Trek fan fiction, it was so bad and so ridiculous," like you don't use the names and you don't link to it. You protect the anonymity of the person. And so it's sort of like, yeah, even even though we can still be just as vicious and just as critical, there is sort of this accepted way of doing things.

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: That this discussion sort of flies in the face of, which is interesting, it's like, huh, you know, they can you can go both ways on that. That has pros and cons.

Liz: Yeah, there was a discussion on Twitter a few weeks ago about racism in fandom and on AO3. One person cited a very specific Michael/Lorca slavery AU, and I knew exactly which fic she was talking about. And I have shared her opinion, and that fic is vile, and I hate it. And I hate that it's on AO3 and there's no way to block it when I search for Lorca fic.

But no one was linking to it. No one was saying this to the author's face. Apparently people have tried to go, "This is a very bad idea for a fic," and she's just like, "LOL, whatevs!"

We are critical. But there's also just too many people in fandom to get all of us in a room or on one mailing list to be part of this discussion.

Anika: It's so interesting that you mention mailing lists, because I was there for the mailing list, um, Trek stuff. And I do remember, you know, there was a lot of -- I guess it was like camps, you know, people who would be on one side or the other of a discussion. And that could get pretty intense sometimes. I don't have any -- it was sort of the end of it when I was involved, so I feel like I witnessed the move from email list to online, I don't know--

Liz: Blogs.

Anika: Yeah, like blogs and all, your own space, I guess.

Liz: Yes.

Anika: As opposed to -- we would like email each other our fan fictions, and they wouldn't go anywhere else, it would just be on this email list, and the copy of the email list that was in Yahoogroups, or whatever.

Liz: And if you were, for example, part of a Janeway/Chakotay group, you weren't necessarily with your friends or people you knew. Certainly for me, my first mailing group was JetC22, and I just signed up and was allocated to this particular group. And there were some people there that I liked very much, and there were some people there that I really, really disliked. And--

Anika: Right.

Liz: --from there that gave me a foundation to go to the people I did like, "Hey, let's start our own group with hookers and booze."

Anika: Right. It's amazing and crazy to think, "Oh, we could just all have a conversation in one room and discuss it all." And that was cool.

Liz: I'm sort of glad that we don't have to go back to those days, but at the same time, like, I like to think that these ladies would look at my fic and go, "Oh, yeah, she's totally feminist by the standards of 1976."

Because the essay starts off, "Feminism in much of Treklit can be regarded as non-existent, particularly in GRUP type stories." And GRUP was an adult content zine which took its name from the slang for grown ups in the TOS episode "Miri. And I'm like, I can't think of a worse thing to name your smut zine.

Anika: I know! That's so, so bad. I'm turned off immediately, but that's just me here in 2021.

Liz: Right. And it's interesting that they're complaining here that the smut fic was very much generic, which I think is still a complaint these days. Sometimes you read a fic and you're like, "I don't think that really taught me anything new about the characters, I have no insight into how this author feels about them, save that she's sort of mashing her action figures together." Which is not a bad thing, but it's not what I enjoy in fic

Anika: Right, it's definitely not what I enjoy in fic. I think that my interests are very well known at this point, and it's pretty much never sex.

Liz: No.

Anika: So. Oh, well!

Liz: It goes on to say, "Some stories are anti-feminist in that women are segregated out of them. Action is all concerned with the male characters. And the implication is that women are not liable to participate in such matters." I like to think that fandom has moved on.

Anika: Well...

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: Yes. Yes, fandom has moved on, but has society?

Liz: Well, no. I think what's notable here is that they're not specifically talking about slash fic, they're probably talking about, I guess what in the X-Files fandom was called case files or casefics, where it's basically, "I'm writing a Star Trek episode, but in prose format." And they're sort of reflecting The Original Series in that it is very dudely.

Anika: Yeah, absolutely.

Liz: You know, we say, "Oh, fandom is so subversive, fic is about reclaiming the narrative." But honestly, some people write fic because they like the narrative and they want more of it. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but if you're not applying a critical eye to your source then maybe you're reproducing its problems.

Anika: Hmm, it's interesting. I mean, I just said I, I have very specific likes and dislikes. And there's a lot of stuff like -- casefic, I don't really need, because I can watch the show for that. But curtain fic, which is, like --

Liz: The domestic...

Anika: -- the characters just, like washing the dishes or arguing about Netflix, like that. I eat it up. That's my favorite thing. There's no saving the world, there's just, "We saved the world, and now we're going home to relax and, and decompress--"

Liz: Yes.

Anika: "-- and do whatever we want to do." Like, those are the fics that I like.

Liz: And "what happens after you save the world?" is a good story.

Anika: It's not subversive, but it is something that's not in the fiction as it stands.

Liz: I think it is subversive in a small way, because you're adding the domesticity which has been excluded from the primary narrative, and in doing so, highlighting that it, too, has value.

Anika: It definitely has value.

Liz: I really like casefic that's character-driven, that's about the people. And I used to have that itch scratched by tie-in fiction, and it doesn't so much anymore -- Una McCormack, thank God, she exists. But, yeah, it's not really something we see so much now that tie-in fiction exists.

And also, I think there's a stronger impetus to file serial numbers off and turn a fic into an original work. And if you're going into all the effort of writing a plot anyway, just throw in that little bit more effort and make it original. I feel like there's less need for casefic.

Anika: Yeah, I agree. But I don't search it out, so maybe it's there, and I just don't read it.

Liz: Yeah, possibly. I have this idea for a Lorca/Cornwell casefic, where they're in their thirties, and they have to go undercover as a married couple on, like, a human settlement that's outside of the Federation. And the reason I haven't started writing it is that I'm like, well, it's not very shippy, so where's where's the hook?

Anika: "Right. So why am I doing it?"

Liz: Yeah!

Anika: I get that.

Liz: The essay goes on, "Other fics concern women, but in a very negative light," and they go on to discuss two fics in particular. One has the rather spectacular title of "Murder, Rape and Other Unsocial Acts". And it's -- I looked it up, it has a Fanlore page of its own. -- it's about a Klingon family, and there's a lot of comedy rape because it's the '70s. And ... yeah, it seems like something that would not really fly these days, and obviously, it was subject to criticism at the time.

And the other fic is titled "An Abortive Attempt", in which a human gynecologist is effectively extradited to Vulcan to face charges for performing an abortion on a Vulcan woman.

Anika: Amazing!

Liz: This is such a specifically 1970s concept. And I have to disagree that this is not a feminist story. This, to me, is a wildly feminist story. Just because something bad happens to a woman -- I'm guessing that this -- I couldn't find it online, but I'm assuming that this is not actually pro-life propaganda, and therefore it is a feminist story, defending choice. I guess? Probably?

Anika: I guess. It's amazing that -- just thinking about, you know, what do Vulcans think about abortion is like -- oh, my goodness! What a great thing.

Liz: Because we would go, "Well, obviously reproductive rights and controlling fertility down to the micro level is very logical." Pardon me, I'm losing my voice. We would think that extreme reproductive rights and micromanaging fertility is very logical.

But then you think, "Well, they've got these arranged marriages, and it's really hard to get a divorce, and Spock is actually quite sexist in The Original Series." He's sort of the logic over feelings guy, as opposed to feminist Jim Kirk, who's like, "But feelings, Spock! They have their place. Women! They're so beautiful!" So, for the '70s, it's a logical extrapolation of Vulcan culture

Anika: Of pro-life Vulcans?

Liz: I guess?

Anika: I mean, yeah, I get it, I get it, but it's also -- I can't imagine it would happen very often on Vulcan, just because they know their cycles so well -- that sounds so weird. And so, if something came up, I feel like there would be a logical reason for it to be needed. I don't know. I just I feel like you could use logic to come up with [a reason] why you should have an abortion easier than why you shouldn't.

Liz: No, I agree. Like, I kind of perceive the Star Trek universe as being a lot like Lois McMaster Bujold's future, where we just control fertility so well and we have extra-uterine gestation anyway, so unwanted pregnancies aren't really an issue for people very often?

Anika: We can only hope.

Liz: It's a nice idea. But it's just interesting to me that this fic is such a reflection of the time in which it's written. And in twenty years, will people be looking back -- on their podcast that's broadcast straight into people's brains -- and going, "Wow, there were a lot of fics about gay marriage back then. Gosh, that's such a product of its time."

Anika: Oh, my goodness. I mean, again, we can only hope.

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: I would love for our progressive future to actually be progressive.

Liz: Yes, yes! I would love to do a thesis on something or something about tracking social progress through issues in fan fiction and depictions in fan fiction. One day, when I have time to do a PhD, and can also go to Iowa to go through their zine archive.

Anika: Cool.

Liz: Then we get to the discussion of specifically anti-feminist stories. And here they discuss a fic called "How About a Raffle?" in which -- it's a Kirk/Uhura fic, and Kirk accidentally sells Uhura into slavery.

Anika: Yikes. I don't think that just happens. Like I was gonna say it happens, but no. No, that's not not true. It doesn't just happen.

Liz: They're dealing with some Orions, and Uhura enters a dance contest, but it turns out that the winner is, like, the top slave or something.

Anika: Oh my God.

Liz: It's still racist.

Anika: I like the attempt to world build for the Orions

Liz: Don't get carried away. Mary Louise Dodge, the author, quote, "Rose and astonished the floor by stating that they were anti-feminist, and anyway, the Orion dancers were only humanoid, not human or intelligent."

Anika: Big yikes!

Liz: Big yikes indeed!

Anika: That is straight up from, you know, stories about masters--

Liz: Straight up slavery?

Anika: Yeah. Like, you know, and, yeah, bad. Bad. Don't ever go there ever. [laughs] I don't want to be an anti...

Liz: Well, it's interesting! I looked up Mary Louise Dodge, and she was involved in fandom for a really long time. She was on the Welcommittee, she ran the mailroom, she organized cons. She wrote a lot of fic. And I feel like we would have crossed paths, had I been in fandom at the time, because she was very much a het writer. And she wrote a lot of Kirk/Uhura, which I probably would have shipped back then.

And she was very vocally anti-slash and anti-porn. I've actually put a note here, that I guess you could call her fandom's first anti. After one con, she wrote a famous letter to a bunch of zines, complaining that there was smut -- smutty zines and smutty art openly displayed on the floor and in the art show. And, you know, "why can't we get back to the good wholesome values of the 1960s?"

Anika: Yay for concern trolling having a deep history.

Liz: You know, I do think smut should be opt-in. And certainly, she is the person responsible for, like, age statements in zines and stuff. And there were a lot of things in fan culture at the time that wouldn't be acceptable today, like dressing up as Spock and Kirk's erect penises. Can you imagine going to, like, Comic Con in that costume?

Anika: And seeing that?

Liz: Yeah, yeah. But at the same time, like, she's not talking about consent, she's talking about -- she just hates smut and hates slash, and is quite deeply homophobic.

Anika: Right.

Liz: And doesn't apologize, which I enjoy, but I've sort of started thinking of her as the Phyllis Schlafly of fandom.

Anika: You're Wrong About, the podcast, just did a deep dive into Tipper Gore versus, you know, like heavy metal, basically,

Liz: It's sitting in my podcast feed, but the Reply All expose on Bon Appetit came up and took precedence.

Anika: I understand your priorities. But it really reminds me of all this stuff. Not just what we're talking about here with Mary Louise, but also with the whole anti culture now.

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: And even in academia, the idea that should you put a content warning or not on your syllabus? And there is a difference between opting in, like, having it having it be clear what something is, versus censorship.

Liz: Yes!

Anika: And it's like, we've been talking about this for fifty years, and we still haven't figured that out. And it's just really interesting.

And the issue is that if you look at what Mary Louise has problems with, versus what Tipper Gore has problems with, versus what the whole anti-Reylo crowd have problems with, it's like the bar shifts, but what it comes down to is, "I don't like this, and therefore, it shouldn't be a part of society."

Liz: Yeah, as opposed to, "I don't like this, therefore, I don't want to see it."

Anika: Right. Which is the whole argument for, you know, using tags.

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: And using databases and having the little sticker that says explicit lyrics. It's not hurting anyone. But if there was like -- they wanted the occult stickers, and it's like, guys, you can't just go around saying, you know, "This is the occult." There are certain things that are subjective, and you can't decide to have a label that has that level of subjectivity.

Liz: Yeah. Yeah.

Anika: That's a slippery slope towards, you know, "Oh, now we're gonna have Muslim stickers, or we're gonna have Jewish stickers." You know, it gets really bad really quickly.

Liz: And there are certainly parts of America where Catholicism would get an occult sticker.

Anika: Exactly. So it's just really -- there are levels. And this is a conversation that, like I said, we've been having for a long time, and I think we're going to continue having for a long time.

Liz: I think it's good that we keep having this conversation, because the context is always changing. And we need to keep examining it.

Anika: As much as we were talking about the Lorca and Michael slave fic, that I'm not going to read and I'm not going to encourage in any way. But I also am not going to say she can't write it or post it. I just want to opt out.

And the same with Mary Louise and her "Let's accidentally sell Uhura into slavery." Like, that's nothing I ever want to read, and I'm kind of upset hearing about it. But okay, you're, you're allowed to do that. I don't want to read it. And I want to know that it's gonna happen so that I don't have to read it.

Liz: And, you know, the problem with AO3 is that there is no way to block this author, or to stop this fic from appearing in every single tag that the author applies. And I think particularly blocking someone is an option that they really need. When you look at zines, it's much, much harder to avoid -- unless you only subscribe to zines whose editors won't publish Mary Louise Dodge. And I'm sure that there were some, she seems to have been incredibly polarizing. But what if you want, you know, Nice Hetfic Zine issue three, and it has five great stories and one Mary Louise Dodge?

Anika: Right, exactly. The reason that we keep talking about it is there's no easy answer. There's just compromises. And it's hard. It's a thorny question.

Liz: And for the record, I would have subscribed to Nice Hetfic Zine issue three. And then I would have written a snarky letter to its letter column complaining about Mary Louise Dodge and her terrible fic, because that was acceptable at the time.

Anika: Exactly. That's the other thing. It's so interesting.

Liz: Yeah!

Anika: It's so interesting. And then, you know, comments on AO3 are like I would say at least eighty percent positive.

Liz: Yeah. And I think that's because comments are for the author. Whereas this is a review culture rather than a feedback culture.

Anika: Oooh, that's good.

Liz: So the discussion is less -- it's more readers talking to readers, than readers talking to writers.

Anika: Yes. That's another thing that I kind of wish we still had, fanfic treated as -- like, I would love to read some reviews or a deep dive into one author's recurring themes, or something like that. I would be super into it. I understand that people wouldn't like it -- the authors. But I would love it. And honestly, I wouldn't mind if people did it for me.

Liz: I was just going to say, the themes of domesticity -- and you write a lot of baby fic, but it's not because [you're going], "Oh, babies are so cute. I love children!" I'm sure you do, babies are cute. But it's about, "What do we, as flawed parents, pass on to our children? And how do we make them better than -- how do we make their lives better than what we've had?" And this seems to recur in all of your fics that I've read in any fandom.

Anika: So strange that I'm obsessed with the relationship between parents and children and their parents! Mm, so strange. And trauma. I know the things that I focus on. I focus on adoption, I focus on identity. I focus on sibling relationships. Like, these are things that are -- I think I've said before that everything I write is actually about me. I don't have to put a Mary Sue in anything, a nd I don't have very many original characters. But I one hundred percent give Katrina Cornwell my own backstory.

Liz: Right. And I've seen that in your fic. She -- often in your fics, she has lost a parent at a young age, and is dealing with that even into adulthood. But it doesn't feel like, oh, yeah, that's just Anika putting her own thing on Kat. It feels like exploring.

Anika: Yeah. Yeah, at least that's my intention. But yeah, so I would love to be even a part of like, a book club, or something where we meet each other and talk about it. Like, I think that would be so fun. And I'm sort of sad that that culture doesn't exist anymore.

Liz: It's sort of like how bookmarks on AO3 are for readers rather than writers. And sometimes, like, there's a piece of feedback that was attached -- it wasn't feedback, it was just a note attached to a bookmark of one of my fics that said, "really good handling of disability." And I was like, "This is the greatest feedback I have ever not really received."

But the other thing is, quite a few years ago, in Doctor Who fandom, I created a sock puppet and started reviewing the fics that were nominated for an award. It started out as a very mean, bitchy sort of thing to do, because I thought that the fics being nominated were not award-worthy -- note my own fics were nominated. So I was not a neutral observer.

But I wound up finding like it was a really interesting way of reading outside of my usual field and going, "Okay, well, this is a Ten/Rose fic, and I don't ship that. And this fic is almost entirely made up of things that don't resonate with me at all, and now I understand why I don't read this fit this sort of in this genre. But this is actually a really good fic, and I think that if you were a Ten/Rose shipper, you would really like it."

And then, you know, one of my so called friends revealed my identity on an anon meme, and there was wank, and people still think I'm one of the worst people in Doctor Who fandom which, yeah, it was a whole thing. I don't recommend doing this. It was not great. But in terms of reviewing fics as pieces of literature, it was a really interesting experience. And I actually had people say, "Hey, will you review my fic?"

Anika: I don't use beta readers very often, because I have a very particular way of writing, and I like my style, and I don't want to change it. So I don't give it to people and say, "Does this make sense? Did I forget something? You know, is this good?" I just don't need someone to tell me that before it's published.

Liz: Yep.

Anika: But once it's published, I would love someone to read it and critique it. I don't know why.

Liz: You are flying without a wire!

Anika: I just don't want to change it while I'm writing it. But I would love to know what people think of it after the fact.

Liz: That's -- that's very interesting!

And I do use a beta reader -- hi, I know you're listening -- because I have this problem where I don't close quotation marks, and she's very good at finding stuff like that. And she also knows when to tell me that I'm disappearing up my own butt, and when I am doing something really cool that she's enjoying, and I appreciate that. I appreciate you a lot.

Back to the essay, Jean Lorrah replied that it was not the treatment of the Orion women that was irritating, but Kirk's condescending good old boy attitude, "the cute little girl is drunk," and that that attitude coming from the female characters was unfortunately common in Trek literature. "Do my thinking for me."

Anika: Yeah.

Liz: They sort of move on to original characters. And apparently there was a trend of pairing off McCoy with a sweet, innocent eighteen-year-old girls.

Anika: Again, I don't want to be an anti. But why? What is that about?

Liz: Yeah, it's not the sort of thing that I find appealing.

Anika: My note here is just "yikes". I mean, doesn't McCoy have an eighteen-year-old daughter?

Liz: Yes. And according to Mary Louise, there was a lot of fic where he slept with his daughter. And I know--

Anika: No, no.

Liz: But because I don't fully trust Mary Louise is a source, I'm like, is that one fic she saw and it was an outlier and probably written to shock, like the notorious Draco/Lucius skullfucking fic, or was it an actual trend? And I'm pretty sure I really--

Anika: I'm disturbed. But I'm also like, wow, what was going on? What was that about? I'm very curious. I mean, I guess because McCoy is the oldest, and is the most paternal, but he's also the most, like, I don't want to say feminine, but, like, feminine.

Liz: He's a very caring person.

Anika: And so it's interesting. It's very interesting, you know, and I could definitely imagine being an eighteen-year-old girl, and deciding that I wanted to date, McCoy. Or like, I could imagine, of all of the people in Star Trek, he would be the best relationship, I can sort of see it going that way, and ending up with this crazy fic. But if it was a trend ... I'm just so interested. It's so weird.

Liz: And the thing is, these weren't eighteen-year-old girls generally writing these fics, these were, like housewives?

Anika: Yeah, housewives.

Liz: Yeah, adult women.

Anika: It's like the whole "Twilight is read by teenage girls and their mothers" thing.

Liz: Yes.

Anika: This is what it sounds like. To me.

Liz: This is not to disparage either housewives or mothers who read Twilight, because I feel like housewives, stereotypically, and middle aged women are as dismissed as teenage girls. But it's just interesting.

Anika: And they don't make anybody any money.

Liz: There's a very nice remark here. "Some of the reasons for badly drawn female characters is simply bad writing, and male characters are just as unrealistic, but this can improve." And then they talk about a specific series again, it looks like a series, like, pairing Sarek with a lady named Lorna. So Sarek gets his own Mary Sue.

Anika: I have to go off on a tangent on this because Lorna is a very specific name. It's pretty old fashioned at this point, like now, but my last name, Dane, is taken from Lorna Dane, who was an X Men character created in 1968. She was introduced in 1968, but then she joined the team in the late '70s. So Lorna Dane is Polaris, and she is Magneto's daughter, at least seventy-five percent of the time.

Liz: Right. His kids seem to have fluctuating identities.

Anika: And she's my favorite X Men, X Men, X Woman, whatever. X. My favorite X. So when I was published in a book of comic book essays, I was published under the name Anika Dane Milik. And so when I got divorced, and I changed my name, I just went to Dane.

Liz: That makes sense. Yes.

Anika: But it's like, it's Lorna, it's Lorna Dane, that's who it is. And this idea that this character that was created in the mid to late '70s, as Sarek's wife after Amanda died, I'm like, so, Sarek is now a part of my identity. And I am really excited about that! And apparently, Lorna's last name is Mitchell, so it's like Gary Mitchell's daughter, Lorna. But she's from the past. Everything about it is amazing. Everything about this, I had to look it up, and I'm so excited by the whole idea.

Liz: This sounds fantastic.

Anika: I love it. I love it, and now I get to be, in some universes, married to Sarek.

Liz: I am deeply sorry for you.

Then they go on to remark that from Lorna in one fic to Lorna in another, "there has been a vast elevation of consciousness". And it's like, as I read that, like my clothes turned into flares and my hair centre-parted... just peak '77

Anika: Yeah, you started hearing … what's that song from Hair.

Liz: Oh, I was dreaming about Hair last night.

Anika: It was like in my head. But, you know, the morning song.

Liz: Yeah, yeah.

Anika: "In the... nah, nah, nah." That song. Anyway, you start hearing that song, I start hearing that song, just can't remember the lyrics.

And that sentence is also so supremely Lorna Dane. The reason that I love Lorna Dane so much is that she's completely different every single time you meet her. She has all of these like, weird relationships with her parents, both Magneto and then her adoptive parents. Her relationships are all crazy. And she never feels good enough, and she's an only child, and all she ever wants is siblings. And she's -- there's so much. And it's literally crazy. I mean, everything in the X Men is crazy. But she is, by far, one of the most -- like just the fact that every other story she's either Magneto's daughter or not is enough.

Liz: Honestly, I'm getting very powerful Wanda Maximoff vibes from this?

Anika: Oh, yeah, exactly.

Liz: I find it interesting that Magneto's daughters tend to be sort of very fluid, dynamic characters whose personalities and backstories are always changing.

Anika: And going back to something we were just discussing in this essay, there's this sort of idea that Magneto can be super powerful, and be able to destroy the planet at a whim, and he is very serious and sad, and we have a lot of respect for him even if we don't agree with him.

Whereas Wanda and Lorna have the same amount of power and can destroy things, and they are crazy. And they need to be, have to be--

Liz: They're unstable and they need to be stopped.

Anika: --locked up, and are a danger to themselves and others. And it's like, okay, so Magneto definitely tried to take over the world four times, but he's not a danger to himself or others? You created an entire prison for him that no one else would ever need, yet he's not considered crazy or unstable or dangerous the way that Wanda and Lorna are.

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: That's a thing.

Liz: The next note in this essay is that a common theme in feminist Treklit is responsibility, and stories about women being given responsibility and handling it properly, or needing to learn responsibility and doing so.

My note here was, "Are women people?" but it turns out that this is a story that the comics and superhero genre, at least, is still grappling with, and I think WandaVision is doing it in a really interesting way. And Wanda's allies are Monica and what's her face? Darcy.

Anika: Darcy

Liz: Yeah. And Jimmy Wu, and to a lesser extent right now, Vision. But these, with one exception, are not white people -- sorry, not white men. And--

Anika: And Vision is played by a white man but I don't -- like he's one of those on the line kind of people.

Liz: Yeah, I'm just -- Paul Bettany...

Anika: He is a white man but he's also not, in the context of the story.

Liz: My feelings about Paul Bettany are very complicated for Johnny Depp reasons. So I'm lukewarm on wanting to see him, ever. But his performance is great, and all. And I just think it's depressing that this [storyline] is still something that media struggles with.

Anika: And it one hundred percent is. It's something that -- I mean, look at Rey.

Liz: Yes. So--

Anika: That's gonna be my answer to everything. Yeah, women are not people is generally the key. Women are vessels that we can put ideas onto, I guess, is the way it goes.

Liz: Yeah. And then the other issue they discuss is issues that are of specific concern to women, or of special concern to women, rather, and they talk about a fic where, quote, "a rape case threatens to obscure the issue of a female officer's rights by triggering an overprotective reaction".

Which, again, going by TOS alone, seems like a pretty valid basis for a fic -- look at look at all those episodes where Janice Rand is attacked, and the only people she has to go to about it are Kirk, Spock and McCoy. Even if it was Kirk's evil double that attacked her.

Anika: It's just bad.

Liz: It's -- yeah.

Anika: Again, I'm really interested in this idea that they wrote -- they were writing stories about rape, and not -- I mean, I haven't read the story, but it doesn't seem like it was sensationalizing rape. It seems like it was, "Hey, this is a thing that happened in canon that didn't get the treatment that I want. And so let's talk about that."

Liz: Yes. "And let's talk about how, not not the rape itself, but the reaction afterwards impedes justice, and recovery." That's super interesting, and still contemporary!

Anika: And still contemporary.

Liz: And then they talk about Mary Sue, and, you know, everyone on the Enterprise is extraordinary. But if you create a woman who is extraordinary, then she's a Mary Sue. And they debate, you know, do you write a male character and then make it female? Or do you try and create a three dimensional woman?

And I still see these discussions now, and I'm like, whatever gets you to a good character is a valid technique.

Anika: A couple of things really jumped out at me. One was "showed some problems Spock could have if he had been female, as well as first officer."

Liz: Yeah!

Anika: I'm very picky about gender swap fic. Because it can be done so poorly, so easily.

Liz: Yes.

Anika: But that's a really interesting question. If everything was the same, except Spock was a woman, what would that mean? I'm interested in that. And if it was done well, then it could be a really amazing story.

Liz: Right?

Anika: So I love that they're bringing these questions up. And then another one was, "when one writes a female officer onto the ship, and part of this usually lies with her occupation: what does she do? Why is she on the ship, and what is her function when she is sent down to the planet?"

And I'm just like, uh, I'm pretty sure you'd have to ask those questions about any original character that you made up?

Liz: Yeah. Men can have jobs too!

Anika: And so what it comes down to is that -- it goes back to the earlier comment about how there weren't women in the show, and the women that were in the show didn't get to do what the men did, that Uhura got to take command once, ever.

Liz: Yes.

Anika: And it was too late, basically.

Liz: And it was in the animated series. Which to an extent--

Anika: Which, who even watched?

Liz: Yeah, I don't want to say it doesn't count. But it's only just now being treated as a serious and valid part of the Star Trek universe. Aside from "Yesteryear".

Anika: So really, it's really interesting that they were sort of asking these questions seriously, amongst themselves, you know, and treating it with any kind of gravity, 'cos (a) I think the answer is obvious.

Liz: Yes.

Anika: And (b), we shouldn't have to answer this. What it's just the whole thing of "let's create a male character and, and write it as a man and then switch it at the end." Like, yeah, sure. And if you're not going to do that, which is fine, because gender does have an impact -- or you know, can, I should say can have an impact -- it's okay for someone's gender to have a meaning to them. But you shouldn't have an emotional and intellectual quandary about why this woman is on this ship.

Liz: If you wouldn't have that same quandary for a male character, why are you having it for this lady?

Anika: Right! They belong on the ship. That's my answer.

Liz: She's on the ship because that's her job. It's where Starfleet told her to be, the end.

Anika: Finally, the one that really, you know, just made me smile. "One dead giveaway of a Mary Sue is when everyone on the ship loves her except Kirk." That is my favorite fun fact that I've never heard before.

Liz: No, me neither. I've seen Mary Sues where Kirk loves her and Spock doesn't. And I've seen all sorts of Mary Sues, and they're all great.

Anika: It was just amazing. I I loved that idea. The idea that people are reading a story, and all of a sudden Kirk doesn't like someone, and they're like, "Mary Sue!" And that's it, that character is tainted and you can't see that character as anything other than a Mary Sue. It's just crazy. But amazing. And I'm not saying that it's not true. I just think it's hilarious.

Liz: I don't think it's a data point that became universal. Like you don't see this in Star Trek Mary Sue litmus tests. Remember litmus tests? Wow. Speaking of fandom history!

Anika: They were like 80 questions long.

Liz: I know!

Anika: And you had to put it in, and then it would tell you if your original character was a Mary Sue or not. And I will tell you, I don't write a lot of original characters, like I said, I never put in any original characters. But I constantly put in my version of canon characters. And the thing is that more than fifty percent of my answers were canon. I wasn't making things up about these people.I was reading the canon, when I was answering the question as my interpretation of the character that I saw on screen.

Liz: No, this makes perfect sense to me because -- I think it's Seanan McGuire who had an essay on LiveJournal, pointing out that "Mary Sue" is just another word for protagonist.

Anika: Exactly. So usually I would get, "You are close to the line of crossing over into Mary Sue-dom and you should take away at least one flaw," or, you know, something like that. It's just like, okay!

Liz: Whatevs!

Anika: I will tell Gene Roddenberry?

Liz: Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry, I need to summon the ghost of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle to tell him that Sherlock Holmes is a Mary Sue.

Anika: You know who's a real Mary Sue? Watson.

Liz: Yes!

Anika: One hundred percent a Mary Sue.

Liz: I feel like Holmes is the idealized Mary Sue and Watson is the self insert Mary Sue.

Anika: Mm, I can see that.

Liz: "The panel then fled from Mary Sue stories."

Anika: As did we all.

Liz: And they talk about how it's difficult to create a good female character, because there aren't many templates to draw from in Star Trek. And--

Anika: Like I said.

Liz: Yeah. "There are plenty of strong masculine characters to work from, but very few women."

Anika: And that's the thing. Again, here in 2021, every woman in Star Trek has been called a Mary Sue at least once.

Liz: And honestly, most of [the women in TOS] are pretty interesting. Like, they're not necessarily strong people. But generally, they're more complex than we give credit for.

Anika: Right. So it's --first of all, just stop talking about Mary Sues and let it go. That's that's my take number one. And take number two, just because a woman is a woman and a new character in an old fandom does not mean that they are a Mary Sue automatically.

Liz: Yeah.

Then they talk about -- it's sort of a digression, which obviously we're familiar with here. "Most blonde women were dependent and ineffectual, well, brunettes were usually forceful, and control their own destinies." And they give the example of Majel Barrett, who goes from Number One to Chapel.

I had never thought of this, and I think overall, as a pattern, it holds for The Original Series. But I also think that there were, you know, existing stereotypes about blondes versus brunettes.

Anika: Yeah, I don't think that Star Trek--

Liz: No.

Anika: I don't think Star Trek created that idea.

Liz: No, you know, [in] Marilyn Monroe movies, she always has a brunette offsider, who's a lot smarter and more together than she is.

Anika: So strange, it's like, blondes are more beautiful and have more fun, and people are more interested in them. But the brunettes are the smart ones. And the ones with depth. That is just -- like, this is weird, okay?

Liz: Unless you get the sort of Hitchcock blonde who is terribly intelligent, but also cold and damaged. And that's Seven of Nine.

Anika: Yes.

Liz: But it's also interesting that they cite Chapel, because the whole reason that I wanted to do an episode on zines is that I have a paper copy of issue 25 of T-negative, which has a wonderful essay about Christine Chapel, basically saying, everyone writes her off as a dumb blonde with no agency who's only in love with Kirk. [Obviously I meant Spock, don't @ me…] And actually she is a really, really interesting character. And then the author goes on to discuss Christine in both canon and in fiction.

It was a wonderful essay, and I was going to cite it -- we talked about doing a Chapel episode, but Women at Warp had just done one. Justice for Christine Chapel, who's not even a character I really care about. But this essay made me want to.

Anika: Right, that's my take on a lot -- you know, there's the characters that I really, really, really care about, and everybody who listens to this podcast could name them. And then there's all the other women characters who -- like, I will meet you in an alley and punch you--

Liz: Right?

Anika: --to protect them, I will one hundred percent go to battle for every woman on Star Trek.

Liz: Yes. Even the ones I don't like

Anika: Because all of the arguments against them are sexist. That's where I'm at.

Liz: One day, I'm going to present the argument that Lwaxana Troi is narcissistic, and not necessarily fully abusive to Deanna, but she is not good to Deanna. And that's the only argument that I will accept against Lwaxana.

Anika: And the difference is that that is a critique of Lwaxana as a person, which is totally fair.

Liz: It's not just "she's middle aged and thinks she's sexy."

Anika: Right, we shouldn't put women on a pedestal, either. But the critiques aren't critiques, they're just, "I don't like" -- again, it's, "I don't like this, and I'm going to write them off." I just watched Star Trek 2009.

Liz: You did!

Anika: And I am so ready to go to battle for Uhura. Like, it's upsetting to me. I've seen that movie many times now. You know, like a dozen, let's say, -- I don't know.

Liz: I've seen it twice!

Anika: And I can just hear all the negative comments as I'm watching the show. Like, I'm sitting here and I'm watching the movie, and I just hear all this chatter. You know, Uhura is telling Spock to put her on the Enterprise, and there's eight hundred voices in my head saying how she's a nagging girlfriend. And I just like, "No, no, she is not!" She is standing up for herself the way that any person should, and the fact -- their relationship is a wrinkle to it. It is not the reason for it. And if Kirk did exactly the same thing, people would be applauding him.

Liz: Yes, yes.

Anika: So I can't. As I was watching the movie, every single thing that Uhura did, I imagined Kirk doing it, and having all of the people like you know, saying "Oh, he was the best version of Kirk." I was just like, ugh! And I know I'm saying that as someone who thinks that Chris Pine is the best version of Kirk...

Liz: You know, there are credible rumours that Strange New Worlds is going to feature a young Uhura. There's a casting call for a young African American woman to play a comms officer, whose name in the casting call is African, just as Uhura is based on the Swahili.

And I see people going, "Oh, good, Strange New Worlds is going to fix Uhura, they're going to do her properly." And I'm like, no, they're just going to do her differently. Peck!Spock is not better than Quinto!Spock. They're just different interpretations of Nimoy!Spock.

Anika: Mm hmm.

Liz: Anyway.

Anika: Yeah, so sorry, tangent, but I just get super defensive of these women characters because people are against them for really silly reasons.

Liz: Moving on, we hit a marvelous piece of fake news. "Another problem with female characters is that feminism can become too much an issue."

Anika: Oh, dear. I love this because literally like two paragraphs before that, they're saying that feminism is the reason like -- that the lack of female characters is the reason that it's hard to write female characters. It's like, guess what, guys, you're being feminist in that argument. And so now, these women are saying that there's too much feminism in my Star Trek, and I -- again, I'm pretty defensive.

Liz: They cite this amazing sounding fic when Number One is now -- it says in this recap, she is now an alien ambassador. But according to the Fanlore page for the fic itself, she is the captain of the USS Hood. And any Friends of DeSoto can just take a moment to say, "Best boss I ever had."

She sits down with a Romulan commander and they both, quote, "bitch interminably about being trodden on by the men in their lives, losing the plot amongst the complaints."

And like, maybe the fic is sort of hijacked by this, and the story it promised to tell is not the story that eventually came out. I just really, really want to read this fic.

Anika: I really want to read it too. And that's what I'm saying, that is the kind of stuff that I love to read and write in fic, which has absolutely nothing to do with the plot, but is all about their feelings and their lives and their interpretation of what's going on.

Liz: And I just love the idea of Number One and a Romulan, comparing notes. I'm just saying, the Romulans had women in command before the Federation.

Anika: Yeah. I ship it.

Liz: And they note that the theme of women cooperating with women is a good one, and just beginning to develop. And, you know, I still get a weird warm, self-righteous glow whenever I write that in my fic, so I'm glad it's still a thing. I wish it was more of a thing. And then they move on--

Anika: This is the best.

Liz: --to the most important question. What about the men?

Anika: Okay, so again, I have to tell a story about today. My most popular fanvid on YouTube is a vid about the animated women in Star Wars. So it's all animation, Rebels and Clone Wars. And that's -- actually, I made it before Resistance. So that's it, Rebels and Clone Wars. And this one is what I'm one of, if not my best -- and it's my most popular, right? And it's ages old now. Like I said, pre the last season of Rebels.

And I still get comments all the time, because, again, it's the one that shows up in the algorithm or whatever. And today I got this amazing comment that was just one question. Four words. "What about man person?"

Liz: Man person!

Anika: Man person! And I just started laughing and laughing. I was like, Okay, I'm designing a T-shirt that just says, "What about man person?" and I'm buying one for all of my friends, because that is an amazing comment.

Liz: I think that we need to release stickers on RedBubble that say, "What about man person?"

Anika: "What about man person?" Like, that -- it was just so good. That's how I ended up with "social justice Klingon warrior" in my Twitter bio, because somebody accused me of being a social justice warrior for Klingons, and I was like, yup, yes I am.

Liz: Well, we've found this episode's title.

[I realise that Anika specifies that it's four words, and then I used three in the title, but, ummmmm, anyway, changing these things post-release is a pain.]

Anika: What about man person?

Liz: What about man person?

Anika: Like, okay, dude, this video is literally a celebration of women. That's, that's the title. That's what it says, Star Wars: Women. I made one for Star Trek, too: Star Trek: Women.

Liz: But, Anika, what about man person?

Anika: Go watch Star Trek! Go watch, literally the entire original trilogy and most of the rest. And you can find all the man person you want.

Liz: So the discussion here, what about man person? Why aren't men writing Trek fic? "There are many males in Trek, why aren't they writing? One suggestion was that men can't take criticism very well. And women are used to it."

Anika: I mean, every answer that they come up with is actually kind of great.

Liz: It is! But I'm like, people call us misandrists, and look at this!

"Criticism is a good tool. The Star Trek world would seem to appeal to males. One expects Marty Sues but gets Mary Sues. But many male Trekfen don't want to write about it, instead want to be in it."

And I think this is really interesting, because if you look at the fanworks which are dominated by men at the writing and production level, it's fan films. And there's the perennial post on the Star Trek subreddit, "Hey, I just wrote a Star Trek novel, how do I get it published?" And they never want my AO3 invite.

Anika: Yeah! I mean, I think that this is actually a really amazing insight that is absolutely true. Like, in, in all fandom--

Liz: Yeah. And I think--

Anika: --men--

Liz: Go on.

Anika: Do that. Like women -- I think we've discussed before how there's the transformative versus, like, critical or or--

Liz: Collecting?

Anika: Collector, yeah. Yeah. And, again, we just said there aren't enough women doing stuff in Star Trek in 1977. And so they were, they were saying, "Hey, I'm going to create a woman character who does something." And whereas the men are like, "I'm going to, you know, make a movie where I play Captain Kirk."

Liz: Yeah.

Anika: And somehow, they don't see that as fanfic?

[Note from Liz: it's not that there's anything wrong with that approach! I just find it weird how things like Star Trek Continues are treated as semi-canonical, whereas fic mostly … is not.]

[Oh no, do we need to start doing eps on fic the way other podcasts do eps on fan films?]

Liz: No, no. A few years ago, pre pandemic, I saw the play Puffs, which is essentially a Gary Stu fic in the form of a play. And it's a professional piece of theatre! You can see it on Broadway Online or something, and I highly recommend it. It was a good evening. I have very mixed feelings about Harry Potter these days, but it was a lot of fun.

But it struck me that "the ordinary kid gets his Hogwarts letter and goes to Hogwarts and is on the periphery of the events of Harry's school years" is a fic that I have seen many, many times. And the difference is--

Anika: So many times.

Liz: The difference is like those fics were mostly written by women. And this guy was like, "Oh, yeah, that's a valid idea. I'm going to write a play, and I am going to make it enough of a parody that it is a professional endeavor." And it's just interesting that men are more--

Anika: Willing to do that.

Liz: Yeah! And I think it's -- I love fan fiction, and I love that we have this community of amateur writers who love something, but do we, as the women and marginalized people of fandom, need to be more open to also being professionals? Or does something get lost in that?

Anika: Yeah. It's a really good question because I am very much of the opinion that if all you want to do is write fan fiction, more power to you.

Liz: Absolutely.

Anika: That is absolutely valid. That is you're still a writer. You can call yourself a writer. You are a creative. You are coming up with something that someone else didn't do. Your fic is original, even if it's fanfic.

Liz: Right, and even if it's using tropes and ideas that have been used before, unless you are literally copying and pasting from someone else's story, it is still unique.

Anika: Right.

Liz: They speculate that boys aren't interested in writing. "It's cute in girls and effeminate in boys in the high school years, and boys should go out and do it, not daydream." And I think there might be some level of truth in that. Or certainly, there may have been then. And, you know, toxic masculinity and all of that.

Anika: So here's what I wrote after I copied that over into my notes, that sentence, "writing is looked upon as cute in girls, effeminate in boys". And the sentence that I wrote is, "Hey, is it possible that this nonsense is why we have so few women writing trek novels right now?"

Liz: Ohhhhhhhhhhhh.

Anika: Just an idea. Just a thought.

Liz: They do go on to note, "most SF writers and men, but that that isn't Trek."

Anika: And also, that's not true.

Liz: Yeah. Even back then that was not true.

Anika: Sorry. That definitely wasn't true in the '70s. There were many women writing science fiction in the '70s.

Liz: This was the age of McCaffrey and Butler and Le Guin. And more. Those are just the ones we remember!

Anika: Literally everything I read in the '80s was written in the '70s. So that's just wrong.

Liz: Joanna Russ was writing Kirk/Spock fic and also science fiction novels.

Anika: Exactly. It's society. It's not us. It's not me and you who's keeping Una McCormack as the only woman allowed to write Star Trek right now.

Liz: Right, right.

Anika: Like, it's the people in charge. And the people in charge have decided that science fiction should only be written by men, and they are going to like, make that happen.

Liz: Right? And so it's interesting that men seem to self exclude from fan fiction. I think that's less true now than it was then. But it's certainly interesting because they go on, there's a bit down here, "at least a third of Trekfen are male." [laughs] I died!

But they speculate that "perhaps the dearth of men in zines is self perpetuating, since male writers are reluctant to submit their precious manuscripts to female criticism."

Anika: That is true. Like, I will say, I know some male writers who have not submitted their manuscripts because they don't want to hear it. And I said a while ago that I don't have a beta reader for the same reason, so I'm not saying that they shouldn't be like that. But it is a thing.

Liz: No, no. What struck me was that with the internet, like the gatekeepers in the editorial process disappeared for fan fiction and we see some more men now than we had then. But still not that many. And it's like it's a mystery to me.

Anika: I don't know any.

Liz: Writing fan fiction is great. Why would you not?

Anika: There aren't any men in our Kat Cornwell discord. There are a couple of non binary people, but no men?

Liz: Certainly no cis men. Is it just not a community that's appealing to cis men?

Anika: And why? Is it because they're not paid for it and you have to like, you know, "I hunt and gather and bring everything in"? Again the patriarchy is bad for everybody. Capitalism is bad for everybody.

Liz: There's a very strange and amusing digression here: "Cogswell and Spano ((MAY SLIME DEVILS INFEST THEIR TYPEWRITER)) were mentioned as trotting around at cons, getting opinions for Spock Mess--but again, those are pros ((SUCH AS THEY ARE))."

And I assume that Cogswell and Spano are nicknames. I don't know what Spock Mess is. I didn't really get any useful Google results. It might be a zine.

I was wondering if maybe they were nicknames for Harlan Ellison or Isaac Asimov or David Gerrold, who were all part of the fan community and were certainly known as people who trotted around at cons. Gerrold was deeply hated by a lot of women in fandom because he's a complete donkey, and was not able to say "I don't care for slash" without also saying, "slash is written by fat ugly housewives who need to get laid."

Anika: Ugh. Yeah, so--

Liz: Thanks for the tribbles, mate, you can just move along.

Anika: Again, fine, you don't have to read the slash. But that's just "I don't like this thing...."

Liz: If anyone out there knows who this aside refers to please, tell us because I require much gossip.

Anika: Also, I kind of want to have an opinion on Spock Mess.

Liz: Yeah, I would very much like to know what it is so that I can have an opinion on it.

Anika: I'd really like to have an opinion about it. So let me know what that means.

Liz: "It's a waste if we can get mediocre rotten and fairly good ideas from female authors, why not from male?"

Anika: Okay, look, I don't actually need men to have a bigger footprint in fandom, because they have reality.

Liz: It's true. It's true. But fandom was so female dominated back then, "at least a third of Trekren are male," that I understand why, in these formative years, it would have been nicer to have 50/50.

And then it goes, "Masculine domination of straight SF was brought up again, with the observation that SF is written by and large for adolescent males."

No, that is not true! That was not true in the 70s!

"And that the field has been changing to human relationship or alien relationship stories, largely on account of the female writers." Who did exist!

And I love that they discuss original SF alongside fic. "Treklit."

Anika: Yeah, that they're basically talking about them the same way. Like, these are both forms of science fiction writing.

Liz: Right. And like I said, Joanna Russ was writing Kirk/Spock fic. And these days, Naomi Novik is the founder of AO3, and also writing acclaimed novels, which I personally do not care for, but I don't read them and don't complain that they exist.

Anika: Because there's a lot of stuff that I don't read and don't complain that it exists. I'll just put that out there.

Liz: Because I'm sort of in the con organizing scene, I pay a lot of attention to like Hugos, and I nominate and I try to read as many of the nominated works as I can. And sometimes I'm like, No, no, this is a bad year for works specifically designed to appeal to me.

Anika: I probably read more fan fiction than published science fiction. I'll be honest.

Liz: A lot of people do.

Anika: Partly because it's free. Partly because it's about characters I already love.

Liz: Yeah. And it is so hard to care -- like it takes real skill to create original characters that other people care about. It's hard!

Anika: That is true.

Liz: It's a real skill!

Anika: That is very true. And even when you do -- like, let's take Daenerys Targaryen--

Liz: Alas.

Anika: George R R Martin created her, right? Whatever. Him

Liz: Yes. He made you care about her.

Anika: I guarantee that I care more about Daenerys Targaryen than he does. And I also guarantee I care more about Daenerys Targaryen than DB or the other D.

Liz: I don't know about GRRM, but I absolutely agree with you on that. You win that easily.

Anika: So that's why I'm gonna go read fan fiction about Daenerys Targaryen instead of caring about when Winds of Winter ever comes out.

Liz: But also, you know, you're entering into a contract with a fic writer where they're saying, "Look, I love this character, and I care about them too." And you're like, "Cool, I'm gonna sit with you and we're going to care together."

Anika: Right, we're gonna care together, I'm -- we're going to fix -- like, you know, fix it fic is like a really popular tag for every fandom because every fandom needs to be fixed for someone.

Liz: I was very against the idea of fix it fic as a concept because I'm like, Sure you can change and you can alter what the show does, but ultimately, you know, what I love is canon. And then they blew someone up and I am very pro fix it fic. I am a Cornwell denialist.

Anika: It's interesting. This is where my love of alternate universes comes in, where I can -- like a fix it fic is just an alternate universe, it doesn't mean that the canon didn't happen. It's like, here's a different way it could have gone.

And I love that, because characters who are thrown into many different plots and many different situations and circumstances and the way things went, seeing the similarities, the throughlines, and their strengths and their skills and their innermost being, like, how it comes out? That's what's interesting to me, that's the identity stuff that I'm always talking about. That's like, this is what matters to this character.

Liz: And there's a really interesting writing trick where, if you're not sure you understand your original character, you should go and write an AU of them. So if you're trying to write a fantasy, go scribble out a coffee shop AU and see, see what is actually essential to that character.

Anika: Exactly, yes.

Liz: And now I'm wondering, is the reason for the whole Mary Sue discourse, and this whole discussion about original characters in fan fiction, because a lot of these writers were novices and didn't have the skills to make people care about their original characters?

Anika: Absolutely! I still have some of my fanfic that I wrote when I was 13. And it is bad. Even -- there are two Voyager fics that I wrote way back when that I put on my AO3, because they're the two that I think are acceptable, and they are still bad.

Liz: Oh, yeah.

Anika: They are … like, I put them up because I'm proud of them. But I'm proud of them twenty years ago. You know, it's like, thank God, I have improved since this time.

Liz: The first fic I actually finished was a Savage Garden songfic where Q watches Janeway and Chakotay dance. It is not good at all. But in my defense, I was 14 years old.

Anika: Exactly. And I think that that's, that matters. One thing that I really love about fanfic, and that I love about having a profile on Archive of Our Own, is that I can go back to this stuff that is fifteen years old, and I can say like, Oh, this is like, I'm telling this, this story again, in this new fic. But look at how much I've improved, look at how I've been able to, like, tease those ideas into something so much like -- into so much more of a blossom.

Liz: And with these women who are writing fic in the '70s -- you know, the general profile of a Trekkie back then was a middle-aged, college educated woman who had married straight after college, had children. Maybe she had a part-time job as a receptionist, or a secretary or something like that. But this was her first creative outlet in decades. And her first writing work in decades. And it is the work of intelligent, educated but untrained writers who are practicing. And - - -

Anika: Exactly, practicing.

I love that fanfic doesn't have to have a beginning, a middle and an end. You don't have to waste time on telling them about the character, you can just tell them about what the character is feeling right now, because I already know who Spock is.

So you don't have to tell me who Spock is. You just have to tell me what Spock is doing right now, and how it makes him feel, and how it's different from what he feels in the episode I just watched.

It allows you to hone your skills with a very low like bar. You don't have to prove anything. The worst thing that happens is someone doesn't like your fic.

Liz: And we talked at the beginning, and I guess this brings us full circle, but we talked at the beginning about how the criticisms in this panel were not the sorts of things that would fly today, and people could be really upfront about not liking stuff.

But I read some of the letters of comment for big fics around this time, and there was one, and it's a very well known writer, and I cannot remember who she was - possibly even Paula -- no, not Paula Smith.

Anyway, the letter of comment was basically, "You need to slow down," or, no, "she needs to slow down," it was a letter to the zine, not to the writer.

"She needs to slow down and consider her pacing and really take time to settle into a scene and let things unfold. Because she is not a bad writer now, but she is going to be really, really good when she's comfortable enough to take her time."

And that's really, really fantastic feedback. And put really kindly And so yeah, fandom hasn't changed that much.

Anika: You know, you can go to college for literature, or whatever, and mostly you get beaten down. And you get told, you know, this is what you're doing wrong, and this is the way you need to do better.

And fanfic is the opposite, where it's like, they're not going to tell you how to fix things necessarily. They're gonna encourage you, and even when they say something negative, it's in an encouraging way. And I think that the balance of both is the perfect, you know, that the best way to make a writer is to have both.

Liz: Absolutely.

Are we done? Should I outro?

Anika: I think so.

Liz: Okay. It's really hot here. I need another shower.

Anika: I'm sorry.

Liz: I'm sorry for Texas!

Anika: It is. Yeah, it is cold and snowing here.

Liz: If I could send you my excess heat...

Anika: And I'm not Texas. Thank God.

Liz: Thank you for listening to Antimatter Pod. You can find our show notes at antimatterpod.tumblr.com, including links to our social media and credits for our theme music.

You can follow us on Twitter at @Antimatter Pod, and on Facebook, because as far as Facebook is concerned, we are not a news source. That's a bit of Australian humour for you.

If you like us, leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you consume your podcasts.

The more reviews the easier it is for new listeners to find us and join us in two weeks, when we'll be discussing bisexuality and Star Trek.

Anika: It will be great!

#antimatter pod #podcast transcripts

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marci-bloch · 4 years

Text

I'm quarantined because of Corona so naturally the first thing I think about is how Star Trek shows would deal with the situation

TOS: the trio beams down, McCoy gets sick and helps Spock figure out an evil computer is behind everything, Kirk talks it into blowing up.

TAS: the same but faster, and for some reason the evil computer now has a robot body Kirk must fight.

TNG: we are the B story to Data learning to knit, Picard preaches directly to the viewers, LaForge reverses polarities and we are saved in the last five minutes.

DS9: Starfleet uses Corona as a reason for overthrowing the Federation, Sisko stops cooking, shouts at everyone and punches the conspirators in the dick. Quark makes a fortune selling expired hand sanitiser. Odo hates Quark.

VOY: we're a Delta Quadrant backwater colony. Either Janeway sacrifices time and resources to have the Doctor save us; or she torpedoes our butts with her infinite supply. Which one depends on what the writers felt like that day.

ENT: they let us die because the virus is "more evolved".

DIS: Somehow a mega space battle ensues. The day is saved because future Burnham comes from the past with a fleet of the faction she met last week in a parallel universe where time goes backwards. Somewhere along the way the Corona plot line was completely forgotten but Saru exists and makes the whole thing enjoyable anyway.

PIC: Picard wants to help but is kind of an asshole about it. Everyone shouts at Picard. Seven comes back from the Voyager episode and Corona surrenders.

#star trek #star trek fic #fanfic #DS9 #Voyager #TOS #TNG #star trek discovery #coronavirus

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e-louise-bates · 4 years

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“Every utopia since Utopia has also been, clearly or obscurely, actually or possibly, in the author's or in the readers' judgment, both a good place and a bad one. Every eutopia contains a dystopia, every dystopia contains a eutopia.”

-Ursula K Le Guin, No Time to Spare

I’ve been feeling disheartened over the tone of Star Trek: Picard as it has been presented thus far (disclaimer: I haven’t watched any of the episodes yet, but I’ve been reading recaps on a few different sites, and that combined with Sir Patrick Stewart’s own claims about the nature of the show have given me a fairly reasonable feel for the tone). I’ve also not been impressed with the tone of Discovery (which I have watched, so I can speak a little more confidently there). The sense of darkness, of emptiness, of--dare I say--hopelessness (though I’m still trusting that changes for Picard by the end, though not soon enough to convince me to watch, despite--or perhaps because of--my love for Seven and the Voyager crew. I’m sorry, I’m just not interested in a future where Icheb is tortured and Seven is forced to kill her adopted son out of mercy and apparently Janeway is doing nothing because Kate Mulgrew isn’t a guest star on this show) in the future, of a universe where humanity turns out to be ultimately self-serving and small-minded, is not an attitude I look for from Star Trek, of all places.

So when I came across this Le Guin quote in No Time to Spare, I took comfort in the idea. This grim, glum, joyless, empty version of Star Trek is the inevitable backlash to the utopia the Federation was presented as in the earlier shows, something flirted with in DS9 and Insurrection but never seriously challenged. For every eutopia there is a dystopia, and the shows now are simply exploring that aspect.

(It’s also the inevitable outcome of a utopia based on humanism--to quote Dorothy L Sayers:

“The delusion of the mechanical perfectibility of mankind through a combined process of scientific knowledge and unconscious evolution has been responsible for a great deal of heartbreak. It is, at bottom, far more pessimistic than Christian pessimism, because, if science and progress break down, there is nothing to fall back upon. Humanism is self-contained - it provides for man no resource outside himself.” -Dorothy L Sayers, Creed or Chaos?

I think the pessimism we are seeing in the world today as to the state of social affairs and the lack of justice, truth, and love in the world, especially in the realm of politics, is exactly what Sayers was speaking of, and since Star Trek did envision the utopic Federation as the result of a world without religion, an entirely humanistic utopian, perhaps this was what it was headed for all along.)

So I can understand why the choices have been made to present ST in this way, and it is, perhaps, more realistic than a still-hopeful ST, still believing in the power of humanity to achieve perfection through science and progress. My heart is eased by coming to this place of acceptance.

But because I DO believe in hope, in truth, in justice, and in love, you better believe that I am also busily constructing a head canon where Janeway has been spending the last fourteen years working to fix where the Federation has gone wrong, and finally now realizes that it never was what she believed it to be, that the principles she held so strongly to in the Delta Quadrant were her own, not the Federation’s, and so she gathers all the Voyager crew who wants to leave, along with their families, and calls in all the favors she is owed by Q (senior and junior) to transport them lock, stock, and barrel back to the Delta Quadrant where they can build a new coalition of planets and start fresh. And oh yes, Q Jr. goes back in time and saves Icheb.

There’s a lot to ponder here, the nature of eutopias and the belief system of humanism, and what happens when they break down, especially compared to the eucatastrophic nature of Tolkien’s “long defeat.” On the one hand, the latter would seem more pessimistic, and yet in the end it is more hopeful than the rosiest vision of the future as presented by humanism. I haven’t worked through all the implications yet, and I’ve strayed rather far from my original thoughts based on the Le Guin quote, and used far more parentheses than is reasonable, but there you are.

#ursula k le guin #jrr tolkien #star trek #star trek picard #star trek voyager #dorothy l sayers #eutopia #eucatastrophe #this should probably have gone on my blog instead of here #except it's been so long since I've blogged I've practically forgotten how #so it gets dumped here instead #apologies #spoilers #I guess

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thesummerstorms · 4 years

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So I've been watching too much Trek, by my own admission, and reading and playing etc etc. So now even though I know I'm not a dedicated enough fan to ever actually WRITE Trek fic, I've been brainstorming a Janeway & Seven centric fic that's technically canon compliant to the end of Picard while giving reason for Seven's isolation without doing a disservice to Janeway/Voyager.

I openly admit to stealing liberally from the plots of the Beyer Voyager relaunch novel "Eternal Tide" and the Voyager episode "Shattered", but doesn't fanfic always involve synthesis?

Anyway, the idea is to explain why Seven no longer has any ties with the Voyager crew (other than the Picard showrunner not liking Janeway) so it would probably open with a prologue.

Seven, who has kept some back channel communication with Janeway despite being a Fenris Ranger and some tensions between that and Janeway's role as an officer reaches out to Janeway when Icheb turns up missing. Seven is desperate and turns to Janeway for help. Janeway can't say much from her official channel but asks Seven for three hours and promises that at the end of that time her plan will be "obvious". Seven argues that they don't have that kind of time, but Janeway reprimands her then asks for her trust. Reluctantly, Seven agrees to give it because this is Janeway.

Except that Janeway's deadline comes and goes with no sign. Seven can't even get her on comms again, and eventually, feeling betrayed and having lost a lot of time, Seven takes off to find Icheb herself. Of course, we all know how that turns out. Seven is bitter and grieving and furious and avoids the Federation for some time afterward... So it takes her a lot longer than it should have to realize that the Federation is trying to hide the fact that Admiral Kathryn Janeway has disappeared without a trace.

She doesn't know what happened. She just has a sinking feeling that she was too late a second time.

Most of Voyager's crew are still Starfleet, and after what happened with Janeway, Seven stops contacting the ones who haven't already cut ties with her for being a "vigilante".

Flash forward to the end of Picard Season 1. Soji now has access to at least a partial Borg Trans Warp Conduit, and La Sirena is well away from Federation Space, deliberating their next steps when Rios picks up a framented, badly damaged distress beacon from none other than Admiral Kathryn Janeway.

Picard immediately demands they go after the signal because she's a) a missing Starfleet admiral and b) a friendly colleague who he respects a great deal and c) Seven's old Captain.

Raffi has ALL the bad feelings about this, but the mystery of it is too great to resist. Agnes is a little starstruck.

Soji has no strong opinions and Elnor is mostly keying into Picard's, but Rios is apprehensive- how the hell do they know that whatever disappeared the great Admiral Janeway, who survived the Delta quadrant for 7 years, won't take them out as well.

Everyone expects Seven to argue for going after Janeway, but she hesitates. Unbeknownst to them she's still angry (at herself or Janeway she never decided) and is afraid of finding the dying or dead body of another old friend. But ultimately she gives faint assent and they go after the signal.

The next part is still incredibly blurry in my head, but basically they find a multipart Temporal anomaly, kind of like happened in Shattered, except the anomalies are centered on Janeway herself rather than Voyager. They include fragments from episodes in the series (including of course the Year of Hell & Deadlock & Endgame) but also slivers of Janeway's past (probably involving an incident on the Al-Bhatani or her capture and torture at the hands of the Cardassian from the novels) and of alternate potential futures or timelines.

Ideally each "sliver" would have to do somehow with an alternate timeline/space time anomaly of its own that Janeway experienced.

Haven't worked it out fully, but they have to somehow fix the fractures from within and end up separated. They all end up in the places they personally feel least prepared to help. Someone ends up in the Year of Hell. Rios is in Deadlock watching another suicidal Captain. I almost want to say Elnor ends up somehow in The Killing Game, because that would be hilariously confusing for him, but I don't know how to make that relate to Temporal flux. Same for Soji or Agnes and the Cardassian skirmish, but same problem.

Picard is possibly traveling with Seven, uncertain, but Seven DEFINITELY ends up having to work through her complicated feelings about "Endgame" (the beginning of a negative part of her relationship with Janeway and her mistaken past with Chakotay) and then in a new, alternate timeline where Janeway is functioning about as well as YoH Janeway.

I do t know how that problem develops or is ultimately resolved, but when they do finally save Janeway, it's revealed to be partially the fault of Q Jr, who was trying to protect Janeway from some separate Temporal power but got met with so much pushback that the time around Janeway fractured. (Time traveling Section31? Idk I have a goal not an antagonist.) He stepped in to "save Aunt Kathy" and his father shows up incredibly late to the scene.

(Neither Janeway nor Picard is thrilled about that last event but he explains he'll be needing both of them and will see them soon.)

Seven and Janeway reunite and Seven has to face her emotional block re: the Voyager crew. She's still conflicted because of some of the problems she and Janeway had before but mostly because Q Jr and Icheb had been friends... And Q didn't lift a finger for Icheb. Still, she gets some encouragement from Raffi after a pep talk from Picard falls incredibly flat and she admits to having missed Janeway who is after all her "family". The two start to make amends.

Ideally, somehow it would go from there I to a sequel fic where Janeway works with Sisko for some sort of time anomaly plot while Seven handles a related thread of the disaster with Picard and Raffi, and also Elnor meets Harry Kim. but let's be real, I'm not that great at writing plots.

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summahsunlight · 4 years

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This Way Became My Journey, CH. 17

Harry Kim entered a subdued mess hall for lunch. The news that Commander Chakotay and Counselor Barrett's shuttle was missing had spread like wildfire throughout the ship. With a solemn glance around the room, Harry went to the replicators to replicate himself a sandwich for lunch. After the food had materialized he grabbed the tray and made his way through the sully crowd to a table in the corner that Tom Paris was occupying.

The young pilot, who had become Harry's friend in the last three weeks, was eating what looked like soup, and staring out the windows at the stars moving by. Harry set his tray down across from Tom and took his seat. "So much for the Karvaians being a morale booster," the young ensign mumbled. "The way people are acting around here, it's like we've already had a funeral for Commander Chakotay and Counselor Barrett."

Tom ran his tongue over his lips. "I didn't care for Chakotay too much; guess it was because he was right about me on a lot of things. However, I'm going to miss Sarah, she knew how to make me feel better and was easy to talk too. I feel bad for the Captain, having to replace her first officer, again, in a matter of weeks."

"You're one these people who make it sound like they're dead," Harry replied. "We don't know if they are."

"We don't know if their alive, either," Tom retorted, solemnly. He leaned forward. "Listen Harry, we have to be prepared for the worst here. It's not like we're home and replacements can be sent. We lose our first officer, we lose our first officer. And… no one else on this ship has the credentials to be counselor."

Harry took a bite of his sandwich. He thought back to the last time he had gone to speak to Barrett. It had been two days before her and Commander Chakotay were due to depart for Karva. He had been homesick; she had made him laugh with some ridiculous story about when she was a kid. Tom was right, she was easy to talk too and he was going to miss her. Her presence alone had been comforting, not too mention she was quite pretty; her smile alone could make anyone feel better. Realizing what he had just thought, he snapped back to attention. "Let's not think about replacements unless we have too, okay?"

"Sounds good to me," Tom said, pushing his tray away from him. "So, are we still on for Venice?"

Harry had completely forgotten, in all the excitement, that Tom had arranged for them to go on a double date with the Delaney sisters, yet again. Of course Harry had been against it from the start, seeing how he had a girlfriend back home, but Tom had forced him into that first date with them by guilt tripping him and now was setting up another. "I don't know, Tom. The last time didn't go over so well."

"The last time you were too preoccupied with your girlfriend back home. It wouldn't have hurt to have said a few words to Jenny," Tom said, with a smile. "Let your girlfriend go Harry. She deserves to have a life, be allowed to fall in love again. Besides, you really think she's going to wait seventy-five years for you?"

"We've had this discussion," Harry pointed out. "But… you're right, I do need to let go. She probably doesn't even know I'm alive."

"If it makes you feel any better, Harry, none of our families know if we're alive," Tom said. "We're all in the same boat."

Harry smiled sadly. "Counselor Barrett said the same thing to me."

"You've been seeing a lot of our resident psychologist," Tom said, smirking, meaning his gears were turning. "Perhaps it's her you want to take to Venice and not Jenny Delaney."

His friend frowned. "Knock it off Tom. Counselor Barrett is a nice person to talk too, I'd even consider her a friend, but that's it."

"For now anyways," Tom said, noticing Harry roll his eyes. "Oh come on, Harry. It's okay to admit you have a crush on her! She's pretty easy on the eyes."

"So why don't you ask her on a date?"

"I did," he said. "She turned me down, gave me some mumble jumble about us being too much alike that it would never work out. Not too mention she said I was a walking hormone."

Harry suppressed a chuckle, and grinned, "Is this why the sudden attention on Megan Delaney? You were rejected by one pretty brunette so now you're going after another?"

"Oh, so you do admit Sarah's pretty," Tom tried changing the subject. "You know, if she's still alive, and we end up finding them, you better make your move before some else does. I heard several crewmen have made a pass at her."

Harry didn't know why but that bothered him, a lot. Could Tom be right, that he did have a crush on Sarah Barrett? Harry finished his sandwich and pushed the tray away from him, glaring at Tom. "This is crazy, Tom. I shouldn't be jumping into a new relationship on the chance we're going to live the rest of our lives out here. Maybe, Chakotay and Sarah found a wormhole and are in the Alpha Quadrant right now, trying to find a way to get in contact with Voyager. If that's the case I could be sitting down to eat dinner with Libby tomorrow."

"Or, you could be stuck out here for seventy-five years, a lonely old hermit if you keep that attitude," Tom argued. "I think she'd understand if you went on with your life, especially if she goes on with hers."

"Senior officers report to the bridge."

The conversation about girlfriends, the Delaney sisters and Sarah Barrett ended, as the two officers got up from their table and went to recycle their trays. However, Harry couldn't shake the emotions that Tom had stirred up inside of him. I only have a crush on her because she's helping me cope with being away from home, that's it; nothing more. But uncertainty kept creeping into his brain as they stepped out of the turbo lift onto the bridge.

Captain Janeway was standing in the middle of the command station, hands on her hips, an alien ship on the view screen.

"They're hailing us Captain," Tuvok reported from tactical.

An image of a humanoid alien appeared on the screen, with skin in various shades of green with navy blue spots blotted down the temple all the way to the collarbone. He, or she, had yellow eyes, a slopping forehead, and did not look particular happy to be speaking to Voyager. "My name's Captain Kathryn Janeway of the Federation starship Voyager, what can we do for you?"

"You can turn your ship around and leave Rupor space," the alien responded, dryly.

"We mean you no harm," Janeway tried to assure the alien, "but maybe you could help us. I'm looking for two of my crewmen, who may have crossed through your space a day or so ago. Have your people reported any unidentified crafts passing through the vicinity?"

"No," the alien snapped. "Except you."

"Perhaps then, you'd be kind enough to allow us to search your space for them. We'd only be here about a day-."

The alien glowered. "No! You are to turn your ship around, there will be no compromise!" He disappeared from the screen and the bridge crew all looked around perplexed at one another. Tuvok reported that the tiny scout ship was in retreat.

Janeway glared at the blank screen, straightening her uniform. "Tom, hold our position here," she ordered the young man. Tapping at her combadge she requested that Neelix join her in her ready room. And before anyone could ask her what she had in mind, the woman disappeared back into her private sanctuary and was gone.

"The woman is insane!" Neelix sputtered as he entered Kes' quarters after meeting for an hour with Kathryn Janeway in her ready room about the Rupor. "No one attempts to travel through Rupor space! No one!"

"But if Commander Chakotay and Counselor Barrett are in trouble, it maybe her only choice," Kes replied, softly, trying to use her tone of voice to sooth him and calm him down. She had to admit she knew very little about other species outside of her own and the Kazon, so she had to take what Neelix said seriously. "Wouldn't you want her to do the same for you?"

Neelix looked speechless for a moment, but then stuttered, "Well yes. But that's not the point, Kes. The Rupor are fanatical when it comes to outsiders entering their space. If the Commander and Counselor crossed into their space even for the slightest second, they would have pursued them, and quite possibly shot them down."

"But they didn't attack Voyager," Kes pointed out. "Maybe Commander Chakotay and Counselor Barrett's shuttle didn't pass through their space at all."

"They didn't fire on us because Voyager packs a bigger punch than a shuttle. A Rupor scout ship would never have fired on Voyager," Neelix replied. " Smaller crafts, that a different story. They offer for you to surrender and if you don't, they shoot you down. They gave Captain Janeway their warning and are no doubt sending a warship to deal with us."

Kes got off her bed and went to place a hand on his shoulder. "Neelix we just have to trust the Captain's judgment."

"I know," he grumbled. "But sometimes that woman is more trouble than she's worth."

Kes rubbed his shoulder and smiled. "Would you rather be stuck trying to make a living in a debris field?"

"No," he answered. "I guess the fact that she has allowed us to journey with them is a redeeming quality. But if we survive traveling through Rupor space, we'll be lucky." The ship lurched suddenly with weapon's fire and red alert was immediately activated. "It seems that the Rupor have already showed their displeasure in our presence here," Neelix told her. "I wouldn't be surprised if this ship is destroyed within the hour."

"Return fire!" Kathryn Janeway bellowed from her command chair, as conduits and consoles sparked around her. "Mister Paris, evasive maneuvers."

She had expected to be confronted by the Rupor, since she was after all ignoring their request not to travel in their space, and from what Neelix had told her, they were not friendly to outsiders. But they had traced Chakotay and Sarah's ion trail this far and she was not about to give up searching for them. What she had not expected was the ferocity and quickness of the Rupor attack.

"Shields are down to seventy-three percent," Tuvok reported.

"I'm detecting hull breaches on decks four and five, repair teams are on them," Kim said through the shaking of the ship under constant bombardment.

Janeway ran a hand over her face and then with a determined stare, stood up. "Tuvok, target their weapon's array, and fire two photon torpedoes."

"Aye, Captain."

She watched on the view screen as the torpedoes made their way through space and hit the alien vessel square on. She held her breath for a moment, praying that they had disabled their ship. And then, let it out as Tuvok reported that they had indeed taken the alien's weapons off line. "Mister Paris, get us out of here, warp seven, following the shuttle's ion trail. I have a feeling that the Rupor are going to be back and they're going to come with reinforcements."

"Yes ma'am, setting course zero one five mark nine, warp seven," Paris echoed, fingers running over the conn.

"Engage."

"Captain," Neelix's voice said, not to Janeway's surprise. "Can I have a word with you?"

Janeway kicked a piece of debris away from the command station. "I'm a little busy right now, Neelix." With an audible sigh, she turned to face her Talaxian guide. "I have repairs to make, officers to find, and aliens to keep from tearing my ship apart. But…I suppose I could squeeze you in."

"It's just that, the Rupor, they'll come back," Neelix said.

"I figured as much."

"No you don't understand," Neelix rasped. "They were just testing your capabilities. Now that they see you can disable one of their ships, they'll come back with even more and won't stop pursuing you until you're either out of their space or destroyed."

"I'm not leaving my people behind, Mister Neelix," Janeway snapped, eyes narrowing on him.

"Your people are most likely dead," Neelix retorted. "They wouldn't have given that tiny shuttle the chances they are giving your starship. Chances are a scout ship has blasted them out of the sky."

"Captain," Kim's voice said, strained, from ops. "I've traced the ion trail to a Class L planetoid, three light years from here. I'm also picking up traces of ignited plasma in the planet's atmosphere and some debris." He put the image on screen and immediately the bridge crew could see that it was part of a nacelle.

Janeway felt bile rising in her throat. "What about weapon's residue?"

"I'm picking up two signatures, one is Federation, the other Rupor," Tuvok answered, stoically.

Bastards, Janeway thought, angrily. "Any sign of the shuttle?"

"Negative, Captain."

The news wasn't about to stop her though. "Maintain course, Mister Paris. I'm not about to give them up for dead, not yet. The Rupor can go to hell for all I care."

"Captain, I'm picking up an automated distress call," Kim said. "It's on a Starfleet emergency signal. It's badly damaged, it's going to take a couple of minutes to clean it up."

"Do it, Mister Kim."

A few moments later he had cleaned it up as best he could. The message was distorted and faint, but Sarah Barrett's voice came through loud and clear to everyone on that bridge. "Voyager, we're under attack, repeat we're under attack. We had to land on an L Class planetoid. We need assistance. Our systems are heavily damaged, again we are in need of assistance." The message ended and Janeway felt her heart sink lower into her chest.

"Mister Paris how long until we reach the planetoid?"

"At our current speed, I would estimate forty minutes ma'am," Paris reported.

"Captain," Tuvok said, "long range sensors have picked up a Rupor fleet moving in to intercept us. I estimate that they will do so in forty-five minutes."

"Well that doesn't leave us much time then," Janeway said.

"Time to do what?" Neelix asked.

"Get to the planet, get our people, and get the hell out of Rupor space."

"Rise and shine, Lieutenant," Chakotay's voice stirred her from a light slumber. "We've survived our first night."

Sarah Barrett opened her eyes to see Chakotay standing over her, holding a medical tricorder in his hand and running the hand scanner over her body. "Anything from Voyager yet?" she asked, noticing a burning sensation in her lungs. That can't be good, she thought, arching her back slightly, trying to find a comfortable position. The movement only made her lungs burn more.

"Not yet, but I'm sure they're on their way," Chakotay answered her with a shake of his head. He put the tricorder away and looked at her grimly. "I'm afraid your injured lung is filing with fluid, you've contracted an infection. I've given you something to stall its progress, but until we can get you the proper medical treatment, I'm afraid that your lung will continue to fill and the infection will spread."

"It's okay," she said, trying to sound positive. "Voyager will find us soon. Captain Janeway won't rest until she does."

That much he knew, he had seen her loyalty to members of her crew while spending five days with the woman trying to locate Harry Kim and B'Elanna Torres after they had been abducted by the Caretaker. The thought of Janeway's loyalty comforted him. "Are you hungry?" he asked the counselor. "We've got fresh ration bars for breakfast this morning."

"Sounds delicious," she replied, sarcastically as he handed her a ration bar. "But I guess it's better than nothing." She munched on the ration bar for a few seconds, watching as he carefully lowered his body back down onto the floor of the shuttle and gazed out of the open hatch. "At least the view is nice."

Chakotay nodded his head, resting his hands on his knees. He had watched the sunrise over the mountains that morning, half hoping to see Voyager in the distance, swooping into a low orbit to search for them. However, he couldn't be sure that Captain Janeway knew that they were in trouble or missing from the diplomatic mission on Karva. Letting out a frustrated breath of air, he nudged the stones he had warmed the night before with phaser fire, long ago burnt out.

"Something on your mind, Commander?"

He looked at her, dark eyes studying her face. "Yesterday, when we talked, you told me about your father, the pressure to live up to his Starfleet standards, what about your mother? You only spoke of her that one time, in the shuttle before it crashed, that she was killed at Wolf 359."

Sarah fidgeted nervously. "Well, my mother and I weren't particularly close. I mean, yes I grieved for her after her death, but it didn't devastate me like losing my father did. What about yours?"

"Still alive, but always trying to talk me out the Federation and then the Maquis," he replied, with a small smile.

"My parents couldn't push into the Academy fast enough," Sarah said. "Especially when my brother decided against a career in Starfleet, the pressure to be their little Starfleet darling was even greater."

"You're brother must be worried about you now, with Voyager missing," Chakotay ventured.

She scoffed. "Luke? No way, after my father died he ripped me apart for not being there for the funeral, that Starfleet was the reason our parents were both dead at young ages and that I was only going to end up like them if I didn't leave. Of course I couldn't just up and leave, I had my work on the Borg to complete and Starfleet had already asked me to infiltrate a growing group of terrorists who were calling themselves the Maquis."

He chuckled, "We could have known each other sooner."

"Well, no, I never went on that mission," she replied softly. "After Luke basically told me that everything in Starfleet disgusted him, including me, I ran into some narcotics dealer on some deep space station, and thus began my battle with drugs. He pushed away further from me when he learned I had been arrested and was being court martial. I haven't talked to him, well, it's been almost two years now."

"He never came to visit you in rehab?"

"I never told him I was in rehab. As far as he's concerned I'm serving my time at Auckland."

"He must know by now you aren't at Auckland. I'm sure Starfleet would have informed friends and family that Voyager had disappeared," Chakotay mused.

Sarah shrugged her shoulders. "I'm not sure it would change a thing. He always told me that Starfleet was going to kill me one day." She laughed then, looking down at her blanket covered legs. "I guess he was right, look at me now; hanging on to dear life on some barren planet in uncharted space."

He gave her hand a reassuring pat. "You said yourself that Captain Janeway won't rest until she finds us."

"Yeah, you're right I did," she said. "What about you Commander, if the situation were reversed and you were in command, looking for the captain, would you not rest until you'd found her?"

It was an odd question, but one he knew she had to ask, to see where his loyalty lay. "Three weeks ago if you had asked me that question, I would have said, no, because the thought of joining Starfleet again was the furtherest thought from my mind, let alone being forced to serve on a Federation vessel. But, today, after all that has happened in the past three weeks, the Kazon, the Caretaker, quantum singularities; yes, I wouldn't rest until I was certain of her demise or otherwise found her."

"Even though she's Starfleet, through and through?"

"She maybe Starfleet, but she's my captain now," Chakotay answered her, tensely. "Have I given you any reason to doubt that?"

Sarah shook her head, the lose pieces of coffee hair falling in her eyes. "No," she whispered. "I'm sorry, Commander. I shouldn't be questioning you like this."

Chakotay felt immediate remorse. "No, I should be the one apologizing. I suppose my loyalty being questioned is still a sore spot, probably will be for a while." He saw her wince in pain, as she tried shifting about to get in a more comfortable position. He reached for a hypospray. "Speaking of sore spots, here's something for the pain again." Pressing the hypospray to the fleshy part of her neck, he asked, "How are you holding up?"

Sarah fell back on the makeshift pillow he had created for her using his uniform tunic and an extra blanket. "I've felt better, that's for sure."

Chakotay stood, getting her a glass of water and noticing that their supply was going down. "Here, take this. I'm going to go get some more snow so we can melt it down again."

"Keep an open comline like usual?" she guessed, drinking the water.

He grinned at her. "Of course, there's still so much that I want to learn about Sarah Barrett."

"Oh, but we were just getting to the fun part; learning all of your dark secrets," she snapped back playfully.

He laughed, gathered up the storage containers and once again trudged out into the rocky terrain to find their only source of water, snow in the higher elevations.

Usually she spent lunchtime with the children, but duty called that mid afternoon. Instead, Kathryn Janeway replicated a pot of coffee and some finger sandwiches to nibble on while Voyager cruised closer to the planet they believed Chakotay and Sarah's shuttle had landed on. Since they first traced the shuttle to the planetoid and found debris and weapon's residue on long range sensors, Kathryn had felt a feeling of dread in the pit of her stomach. Neelix had mentioned the Rupor were relentless when it came to outsiders in their space.

Voyager had already had one brush with them and she was sure that the ship would not be able to withstand another attack. They might have been able to disable the warship that had come to greet them, but Voyager had sustained heavy damage as well, seeing how many of her systems had been under going repairs in the first place. Voyager would not survive another attack by the Rupor. She was faced with a frightening choice; if the Rupor attacked again before they reached the planet, for there were no guarantees that the fleet Tuvok had picked up would be the first to intercept them, she would have to either turn the ship around and retreat into friendly space, leaving behind Chakotay and Sarah to die; or she would have to press onward to save her people, thus writing all of their death sentences.

There was no easy answer and she wished that her counselor was there to help her sort through the fog.

Kathryn leaned forward to pick up a finger sandwich off the plate, which was resting on her round coffee table. As she did so she felt something cold brush against her neck and she instinctively reached underneath her undershirt and pulled out a gold chain. On the end was her engagement ring, a simple gold band with a sparkling aquamarine gem in the middle. Welded to the engagement ring was her wedding band. She had taken the rings off her finger when she had gone back to active duty, after Ava's birth. Even though her marriage had ended, by the tragic death of her husband, she was not ready to part with the rings yet, so she had purchased a gold chain at some starbase, and thus started wearing them around her neck, hidden underneath her uniform. Running her fingers over the cool metal she felt tears press her eyes. I'm in over my head, Bryan. I wish you were here to give me the answers that I'm seeking.

She could almost hear his soft voice telling her that she would figure it out, his gray eyes smiling at her, how his arms had felt so sheltering when she felt out of control. She hated being out of control, hated having control taking away from her, like it was now with the Rupor breathing down her neck. Bryan I can't do this, I just can't.

But you can, Kathryn, you can, she could hear him speaking in her head, or at least what she imagined he would say to her. Bryan had often told her that he had never met a stronger woman than her; it was one of the things he loved about her, her resolve. It was the first thing he had said to her when he proposed to her.

Suddenly she was overtaken with emotion and shoved the necklace back underneath her tunic, trying desperately to fight her tears. I will not cry, I cannot cry, not now, not when I have crewmen to rescue.

Voyager shook with weapons fire and red alert came on. Tuvok's voice could be heard over the comlink, "Captain Janeway report to the bridge."

Burying all the emotions deep down inside of her, Kathryn stepped out onto the bridge, asking Tuvok for a report. The Vulcan brought his dark eyes up to hers and she could see them flicker to the view screen. Following his gaze, as he rattled off his report that Rupor warships had come in undetected by their sensors and proceeded to open fire on them, she could see three large warships, sleek in design and packing a deadly punch.

"We barely had enough time to raise our shields, Captain," Tuvok said, finishing his report.

"Hail them," Janeway ordered, still hoping for a diplomatic solution. Tuvok told her the channel was open. "This is Captain Janeway, we mean you no harm, we're simply trying to find our people."

"They are not responding, Captain," Tuvok reported.

"Return fire!"

"Firing phasers," Tuvok said. "They had no effect Captain."

Voyager groaned with another hit, and Janeway had to grip the railing near tactical to stay on her feet. Someone was yelling that their hull was losing integrity and then Paris was yelling that they were losing warp drive.

Janeway felt like the walls of the bridge were closing in around her as the Rupor continued to fire. Consoles were exploding, their shields were failing, and causalities were being reported all over the ship. If she stayed in Rupor space she risked losing more than just Chakotay and Sarah, she risked losing her entire crew, her children. Swallowing the bile that had risen in her throat, she turned to Paris. "Do we have enough power to the warp drive to get us out of here, Mister Paris?"

"Yes ma'am," Paris answered, blue eyes studying her face.

"Set a course out of Rupor space, maximum warp," Janeway instructed a tone of dread in her voice.

"Aye, captain."

Janeway felt the ship lurch with the new course, the walls seemingly getting smaller and smaller the further they moved away from the space that Chakotay and Sarah were trapped in. I've abandoned them, she thought miserably. No captain should abandon her crew, should not leave them behind. I'll be damned if these aliens bully me into leaving my people to die.

"The Rupor are not pursuing, Captain," Kim said, and then in a soft voice asked, "Does this mean we're giving up the rescue attempt?"

The Captain spun on her heel, tears threatening to escape her eyes, and Kim could see the fire smoldering in them. "No Ensign, they may have us back on our heels, but I refuse to give up trying to rescue Commander Chakotay and Lieutenant Barrett. Contact the Karvaian Prime Minister, maybe they can help us."

#star trek voyager #star trek voyager fanfiction #kathryn janeway #chakotay #tom paris #sarah barrett (oc)#harry kim #tuvok #neelix #kes #the doctor (emh)#janeway x chakotay #tom paris x ofc #this way became my journey

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