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fandomlurker333 · 16 days

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A lot of people are screaming throuple and just writing the porn (which I get! It’s fun!). But reading them come is not enough for me. lol Toxicity is hot until it’s just damaging and sad for everyone. I want real happiness for these three weirdos.

The end of the film was meant to be the very beginning of something. Just the spark of an idea of them coming back to one another. But the real work starts after.

And I think it would probably be a step-by-step thing.

I can see Patrick and Art working to draw closer, with that strong foundation of their childhoods to build off of. Obviously having to resolve the hurt that so much time and distance caused them, and both being willing to forgive. But it’s clear at the end of the film that the door is open for that. They grew up together. There’s a real root of knowing that I think could carry them through the toughest parts early on. Their relationship evolving feels possible.

And Tashi and Art’s marriage would find some breathing room and maybe even some renewed delight for having Patrick present and loving on them both. Kinda seeing each other again through his eyes type thing. Remembering they’re more than who they have been to each other for over a decade (both operating in one mode to survive, never quite enough for each other -- not totally fulfilled and not appreciated in their fullness).

I don’t think Patrick and Tashi would be having sex at this point, but I can see like….tennis dates where they bicker. Just them all learning how to be in each other’s space for extended periods of time and enjoy it.

And maybe Art wouldn’t resent Tashi so much for not being able to give him everything (so much has been taken from her — she just doesn’t have all that much left. She’s been doing her best.) and maybe Tashi would feel more at peace seeing them play each other and knowing Art is really loving tennis, not just playing for her. Connecting with them both in that space and finding joy in tennis again, so it’s not just routine and pain and loss for her.

With that healing happening concurrently (with therapists as support, of course), I think they’d get far. And then once those relationships are more secure, once Art and Tashi learn how they relate to each other when he isn’t winning for her (which would be something new. They don’t know what that looks like yet!) then Patrick and Tashi, having learned way more about themselves in relationship and how to communicate, might start working on their side of the triangle lol.

I could see them all exploring and working out the intimacy over time — not just sex, but intimacy -- what do they each need and how do they need it? And kink too, the various ways they each want/need to give or receive so they all feel truly satisfied.

And of course they’ll be partners co-parenting. All of them.

I can see Tashi finally grieving her injury, the life she lost, and rediscovering her love of tennis, not to win, but for the joy of being on the court. Her sobs the first time she plays again and it’s not competitively, just a little volley, but it’s like she’s finally alive again. Reminding herself she’s a leader in tennis the space still, that she can build success in that world even without Art’s career, but maybe it looks different. I see a healed Tashi learning to enjoy teaching kids. Taking on more protege. And letting Art and Patrick come help at her tennis camps.

Art retiring like he said he wanted, running the foundation as Tashi steps back. Realizing that he’s actually pretty good at this business thing and going back to school for a Master’s in nonprofit leadership. Meeting new people. Making friends (that aren’t Patrick). Getting invited to a pottery class and seeing he loves to work with his hands. Playing tennis with Patrick on the weekends.

And my heart for stay-at-home dad Patrick. Who always forgets to change over the laundry and leaves his keys everywhere and puts the babies' shoes on the wrong feet. But my god he loves those kids so goddamn much. Patrick learning to cook for the family and getting really good at it like he does anything he hyper-focuses on. Patrick finally having a home with the two people he loves most and figuring out how to create some routine and stability for himself within that container.

The love in that home. Ugh. I think it’s possible! I think they can do it! It just takes work.

#challengers #a TRUE throuple #patrick zweig #tashi duncan #art donaldson #I need a fic that does THIS #Cause the fucking is the easy part #artrick #patrick x tashi #tashi x art #artashi #art x patrick x tashi #ot3 #if tashi and patrick could actually communicate #and if art and tashi figure out their shit furreal #musings

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twobeesornottwobees · 13 days

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I have many thoughts on Challengers (2024) and I need to get them out so here we go

First, the tennis.

This movie understands tennis better than any film, tv, book, etc. I have ever seen. You know exactly how the relationship between the three main characters is going to play out just based on how they play. The cardinal rule of tennis is you want to get to the net as quickly as possible. Playing from the baseline (the line that you serve at) is all well and good and it's a vital part of the game but playing at the net is where the action is. The quicker you get to the net, the more likely you are to win.

From the first moment we see Art and Patrick, Art is at the net and Patrick is at the baseline. Then we see Patrick serve. In the language of tennis, Patrick's serve is a crime against beauty. It might work well enough for him but it is ugly. Those two facts put together mean that when Tashi tells Patrick he isn't a tennis player, she knows what she's talking about. Art is not as talented as Patrick and neither of them are as talented as Tashi but Art gets to the fucking net. He understands what Tashi means when she says that tennis is a relationship.

Second, the framing of the narrative as a tennis match.

Patrick wins a set, Art wins a set, we're left looking at the tie breaker. Brilliant. Camera shots from far away steadily get closer and closer, just like if you were in a rally and you were moving toward the net. Tashi, in particular, always moves closer to the person she's talking to and she always wins the point. She goes towards the net.

Third, Tashi as a character.

I love her, your honor. She is in love with the game of tennis. She doesn't give a shit about anyone or anything else. When she says she would stab a child to have the recovery that Art did, she means it. Moreover, we know that the child in question could be her own daughter and she would still mean it. From the first night in the boys' hotel room, she doesn't care which of them gets her number, she just wants to see good tennis. She is unlikable and yet Art is right. Who wouldn't love her?

Fourth, Art and Patrick.

One thing about tennis: your teammates are also your competitors. They are the yardstick by which you measure yourself, the only people capable of making you better, the people that you most need to beat. The relationship between the two of them, even from the beginning, perfectly reflects this.

I would actually argue that not a single one of the three of them is a good person. But the narrative is completely uninterested in whether or not their moral people. All it cares about is if they're good tennis players.

Fifth, the background details.

Art is sponsored by Wilson, his rackets have their logo repainted on (normally, you get rackets restrung and don't get the logos painted back on, only the players that are sponsored get that done.) Tashi was sponsored by Wilson (and Adidas but only for her clothes). Art only switches over from Dunlop to Wilson after they get married. Patrick's racket is restrung, but no logo, he's not sponsored. But, his poverty is at least a little bit performative because you don't smash up a $300 racket unless you have money to spare.

The ad in the background of the parking lot. It still has both Tashi and Art on it while Tashi and Patrick are having sex but by the time the final match starts, Art's half of the picture has torn away.

Patrick's changed serving style. Only when communication is happening directly between him and Art, that Tashi has no way of understanding, do they start functioning well on a court together. Ironically, when Tashi is removed from the relationship she finally gets to see some good tennis.

Anyways, I love this movie.

#challengers #challengers spoilers #challengers 2024 #zendaya #mike faist #josh o'connor

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poshmygosh · 5 days

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Sooo I just watched Challengers and I have so many thoughts!!! Warning: this is a long one..

Honestly, I have seen so many interesting takes on this movie (though I'll mainly be discussing one I've seen a lot that I don't agree with at all) and I figured I'd throw my two cents in there lol.

So first and foremost: Tashi is a vital character to this film, as well as Patrick and Art's relationship as we see it int he future.

I"ve seen so many posts saying that "Patrick and Art should just get together, they're the one's that are really in love" or just overall downplaying the role that Tashi has in the film, I don't know if this is just that thing that some mlm shippers do where they erase the woman in the situation so that can just ship the two men, misogynoir, or something else entirely, but this takes generally doesn't make any sense to me. Obviously Patrick and Art loved each other, even before they met Tashi. They had been best friends for years and their friendship was definitely homoerotic at the LEAST, but the idea that they would have been romantic without her is not true. They had never had any sort of romantic interaction, besides jerking off in a room together in separate beds when they were twelve, until Tashi prompted them too in the hotel. I don't think that would have happened otherwise. Beside the fact I do believe that there was some romantic yearning from both of them at times, they were not in the place to actually explore what that means. Patrick had a girlfriend, Art was clearly not in a place to confront the possibility of a sexual situation between them, and they were headed in two completely different directions in life. Tashi being there with them in that moment in the hotel, with them hanging on to her every word, every command allowed for them to feel comfortable being sexual with each other in that moment. Even if she had left that hotel room and the three of them had never interacted again, the night would have been brushed off as just something they did when they were drunk to hook up with a girl, it wouldn't have amounted to relationship, and even if it had she was still an integral part. She is the catalyst to so much of the tension between them, the sex that they might've shared in that hotel room that night if things had continued, and the sex they share on the tennis court 13 years later.

Another hot take: I do think that Tashi loved both of them at different points of the movie, though she loved tennis most of all.

I've seen some people say that the only real love that exists within the triangle is between Patrick and Art, and that Tashi only loved tennis. While I absolutely agree that tennis was the love of her life, I don't at all think that she never had love for Patrick or Art. One of the reasons why she was so bothered by Art saying that Patrick didn't love her when they were eating together at Stanford, was because she DID love him. She puts up a front, she acts like things don't bother her even when they do (is it clear that this trio need to work on their communication lol?) but she does like to show it. I think that this is also evident when her and Patrick are making out in her dorm later. I think some people think that her trying to giver him pointers on how to play better are her trying to be mean or vindictive but I also think this is a sign of how much she cares bout him. Her dad was her tennis coach, so you can imagine that she grew up in a household where oftentimes the love that was expressed was in conversations about how she played and how she could play better. And she's passionate about the sport and she has so much love for the game. For her, love and tennis are tethered in a way. The fact that she watched his games and was so eager to give him tips and pointers was evidence that she cared imo. And how that quickly turned into a fight between them is her putting up her walls, becoming defensive, most likely because she still has Art's words in the back of her head, and it bothers her.

As for Art, I feel like this could go without saying, but she married him. She married him and had a kid with him, and she didn't have to do that lol. She could've just coached him, we know that she's coached players without having a romantic relationship with them, and she did a pretty damn good job to, so she could've done the same with him. We actually get a really nice scene between them at the diner and we get a small glimpse of them beyond tennis, and you realize what it is that sees in him and why she would be interested in him romantically and not just as a coach to player.

I feel like people misconstrue her disdain and loathing that she has for them as her not loving them. She loves them and at times hates them. She tells Art in the beginning that she would do anything to be able to play again, and yet, here these two are, one who has lost his confidence and motivation for the game, and another whose laziness and carelessness prevent him from reaching his highest potential. Two people who are wasting their greatest privilege and she despises them for it.

Annnnnnd last take (I didn't expect this to be so long): Art is a snake.

Now, don't get me wrong. I love Art. I love all of these characters, and in my head they all quarantined together during covid, found a therapist, learned how to communicate and work through their issues, and are now living happily ever after with Lily, but Art is a snake as are all of them. I've seen some people excuse him trying to break Patrick and Tashi up back at Stanford, for one reason or another, and I'm not really sure why. You can love a character and/or feel sympathetic for them without erasing their wrong doings. You can admit that Art was slimy and manipulative at times and still love him, I promise. None of these characters are real and canonically all of them do pretty awful things in the movie, but you can acknowledge that and love them anyway. I think that if you look at this movie as there being a "bad guy" or a "good guy" you may have missed some things. The movie is messy, and toxic, and petty, and intoxicating, and thrilling because of the characters wrongdoings not in spite of them. And I think that's part of what makes it so fun!

Anyway, this was sooo much longer than I intended it to be lol, but I had so many thoughts I needed to get them out. I don't even know if this makes any sense but it's late and I'm going to post it anyway. If anyone has their own thoughts please please share! I'm literally obsessed with this movie, so reading people's ideas and opinions about it has been really fun

#challengers #zendaya #josh o'connor #mike faist #tashi duncan #patrick zweig #art donaldson #overall really great movie #luca guadagnino you've done it again!!

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socialtomcat · 8 days

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DISCLAIMER. the following post will be discussing characters whose canon consists of around 6 hours of comedic musical improv and most of their personalities are based on stuff i made up/projected onto them or decisions the actors made to be humorous taken deadly seriously. hold my hand. look into my eyes. its all going to be okay.

also there will be challengers spoilers

regarding last post the thing about moshe and neal is theyre both kind of canonically pathetic wet cats so its hard to find tension between them personality wise which would result in the kind of tashi/art vs tashi/patrick dynamic. i think the difference is neals refusal to accept help is more out of principle and in many ways a need for independence makes him much more like patrick whereas moshes difficultness stems from his abandonment issues which means as much as he will huff and get upset when ppl try to help him in ways he doesnt like, he is incredibly loyal and will eventually listen to the ppl around him because he craves both guidance and validation. i think the hotel scene would play out very similar but i think moshe would be more explicit about his desire for an ultimatum (not on purpose) while also emphasising how much he wants to stay with her despite knowing she will never truly love him like that

that post about tashis one true love being tennis and how she will always love tennis much more than she will ever love the boys while also knowing they are her only way to have that rings pretty true for kharm too. like as much as she cares for and loves neal and moshe in ways her true love is performance and connecting with her fans. as much as she spends so much effort trying to maintain her cool persona, she wants to be vulnerable but they all love her so much and place her on a pedestal so its difficult. shes also honest in little ways like telling them her dreams and crushes which feel like a big deal to her but the only time she can really truly connect and be seen is performing and putting her feelings into songs and she knows she wouldnt have that without the rest of the band. when theyre singing together, whether its with a live audience or a jam session, for those moments they truly understand each other and it is kind of like theyre in love. or something. i dont remember the actual quote but u get it

anyway this ties back to art/patrick & moshe/neal playing together without realising the vulnerability in it thats been there the whole time. i think moshes style kind of mirrors art in the way of like his verses are sometimes a little clunkier he might get focused on one thing and have to jam it in there, art might be a weaker player than patrick but he has tells in the same way moshe is kind of involuntarily showing his inner psyche when he sings, and they still connect to each other. havent thought this part out much but moshe being the new kid at school and being welcomed by the others vs art being a “late bloomer” and patrick helping him are definitely linked. if i follow this thread any further i will start experiencing vertigo but u get where im going

im not sure if they would get a similar satisfying ending like the movie solely because theyre very prone to messiness and poor communication and as im typing this im realising thats kind of challengers whole thing so idk. maybe theyd work it out. i think moshe does sort of have enough admiration and love for neal that he could accept it but he might also spiral and get upset and do moshe things etc u get it. i am not going to talk about did system moshe but it definitely adds layers to this that could either bring it closer to the events of the movie or complicate things further (in a fun way) but also tbh moshe does that on his own anyway

ummmmm also blair witchproject is there

#long post #idk whether to tag this epic theyre pretty far removed at this point probably i cant even tell anymore #fuck it #every place i cry #pspsppsspsps please anyone talk to me about them #reply post #mrrow

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destinyc1020 · 21 days

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Hi Destiny. I also felt the same way about the white boys line 🤣 I read the leaked script 2 years ago and I literally had to stop reading after that 🤣 I loved the film (have seen it 3 times) but I don’t think the script is the best, I feel the music elevates it (I saw it with subtitles), like remove the music and some of the lines flop/cringe (imo: the milf line,the fan club line (though I loved it)).

The Vulture magazine lady had me gagged with her line about Zendaya not working with a full black cast or black director, till I remembered:

- (couldn’t find the article),when Malcom and Marie was released there were discussions because JDW was dark skinned and Zendaya wasn’t.

-She doesn’t go for parts that are meant to be played by dark skinned actresses.(big side eye to Zoe Saldana)

-There was no need for that Lady to bring Zendaya down to rant about HW ,which I personally think it got lost and reads more about her diminishing Zendaya’s success.

-Zendaya has addressed being hollywood's black it girl because her skin complexion. Yet she doesn’t appear in many films and tv shows as that Lady and so many people think.

-I agree with your point in regards the lack of need to address race in every single black film, but I feel if Art and Patrick were played by black actors, then the film would be different

Hey girl 👋🏾

Thanks for your input! 😊

Yea, I think the music worked in some areas, and didn't in others. Sometimes, the music was just way too freaking loud! Rofl 🤣 But it was hype though lol.

I also felt like the timeline and flashbacks were a bit confusing at times, but maybe it's just me? To me, I kinda feel like they should have done one flashback to the past and showed the story progress from there, instead of jumping back and forth in time, but again, maybe that's just me. 🤷🏾‍♀️

Re: M&M....

I don't recall articles saying that Zendaya should have been dark-skinned in that film, but I'll take your word on it.

Personally? I don't care what hue a black woman is onscreen, as long as she's not playing a historical figure who's dark-skinned (I see you Zoe 🤨).

Marie could have been played by anyone imo. 🤷🏾‍♀️ Marie could have been played by a white woman for all I care. It's not like she was some real person in history.

I don't think Z should limit herself from working with black creatives just because she's afraid of what the black community might think or say. She worked with a black cast before in Disney's KC Undercover, and nobody said a thing. Idk why she can't do that now? 🥴

I know Z has addressed her privilege in Hollywood, so at least she's acknowledging it. 😊

The funny thing is, she might not be taking roles away from darker black women in "BLACK films", but one could argue that she's taking roles away in mainstream Hollywood films that could have actually gone to a darker black woman. 👀 (i.e. Chani, Tashi, Anne Wheeler, etc)

So, it's like.... you really can't win either way. 🤷🏾‍♀️

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fandomlurker333 · 23 days

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My Argument for Homosexual but Panromantic Art and Aromantic but (Something)sexual Tashi

@seek--rest I AM SO SORRY BECAUSE THIS IS A BOOK. That's why I didn't put it in your asks, so I could put it under a cut.

Okay, so I think it should be acknowledged before I get into my thinky thoughts that art is up to interpretation and I am not really trying to convince anyone of my perspective. There's a certain amount of bias that anyone comes into any experience with and it's going to color their perception no matter what. And that bias could be anything.

It could be the experience of having been cheated on and really loathing any kind of infidelity, emotional, sexual or otherwise. It could be being queer and therefore more fluent in queer subtext (though, of course, this movie was pretty blatant -- bananas and churros and boners abound lol) or being a black woman and sympathizing with Tashi's experience (which I am and do), or having been homeless/hungry and sympathizing with Patrick or any number of other life experiences that lends us to partiality toward one character or another, or more aversion to/disidentification with one or another character's plight.

So, I just wanted to start with that universal acknowledgement first. And then also say that I love each of these characters in their own ways and so when I say something that could be perceived as negative, like Art is petty or Tashi is cold, or Patrick is trash, I mean it in the most loving of ways. lol Because I enjoy seeing complex characters come to life. I don't need them to be right all the time, or for their motivations to be simple. I prefer the more complicated motivations and relationships, tbh, which also plays a part, I think, in how I see them. My take on these characters is the least kind. I see them all as their worst selves lol

So my point is that some of this is just down to what we think. And we won't ever be on the same page, because we're different people. With all that said...this is why Art's feelings for Tashi are ambiguous to me and why I think Tashi could be read as aromantic (not just not in love with Art, but not in love with Patrick either. Not in love with anyone, just in love with tennis.)

It's been clearly stated by the director himself that the movie is queer, which is, in large part, a reference to Art and Patrick's non-platonic relationship to one another. Poly relationships could be argued to be inherently queer, even if the relationships are all hetero-romantic, but I don't think that's how it was being used. Everyone, down to the actors themselves and the people who made the soundtrack are aware of the movie being about "Unending Homoerotic Desire". That's gay. lol It's not JUST gay, but it is gay.

And to me, this desire is seen to be mutual from pretty early in the film, both by how they look at each other and interact with each other and through Tashi's recognition of their intimacy. i.e. working deliberately to get them kissing (not holding hands, not hugging, kissing, something romantic/sexual) -- Tashi, to whom tennis is a relationship. Who noted that they are Fire&Ice and was drawn to them (Both of them together, not separately!) enough to come into their space and fuck around. lol

We learn quickly that they've shared bunks since they were around 12 years old, that Patrick was essentially Art's first sexual experience, that they're incredibly tactile, attached at the hip, and that they move in unison.

My read of Tashi here is that she's young and having fun, and she has her whole life of tennis stardom ahead of her. And she's an enigma to them. I would argue that much of both their attraction to Tashi has much to do with her dominance on the court, her ferocity, her skill, and her take no bullshit attitude. I think it has as little to do with her gender and her physical makeup as it has to do with her race or whether she's left-handed. Tashi OWNS the Tennis court and that's hot.

But if we're going to talk just about physical attraction and sexual desire, I'd argue Patrick's desire is put front and center. Art's is....more questionable. Patrick is the one who shows Tashi to Art. He's the one who has been following her game, knows who she is. Has watched her play. It's established right away that Patrick finds her "hot". Art asks why he's into her "Is it her game?" (his first thought is her skill, not whether she's pretty), and Patrick clarifies, no, she's the hottest woman he's ever seen.

Small, yes. And something I can see a lot of people disregarding, but since it's already been established this is a queer film, and we have little dialogue to go off of, I think it's significant that Art's frame of reference, or the way he relates to women is immediately presented as non-sexual. For a horny 18-year old this is notable.

Then we have Art say, "Look at that Backhand" in a dreamy voice. Not, look at those legs, or look at that ass. Patrick grabs his leg in excitement, eyes only on Tashi. And then we have two boners. lol Okay, yes, Tashi is without a doubt a part of this, but the camera didn't show that touch for no reason. Patrick is not outside of the bubble of desire for Art, even here. He's adding to it. And later we get something along the lines of Art saying, "that scream". Okay, so Art's drawn in by her, yes. He seems to be mesmerized and in awe of her power and skill, how wild she is on the court.

Later at the party, again, Patrick is the one to articulate sexual feelings tied to whatever makes him mesmerized about Tashi Duncan, "I'd let her fuck me with a racket," visceral, physical, sexual, tangible.

They both watch her on the dance floor, again, there IS desire, but that desire for Art is not articulated, and STILL Patrick is present, being very vocal about his. So, for me, it's all tied together -- there is no separating Art's desire for Tashi from Patrick's desire. We only see it with Patrick present. (Throughout the whole film! Because scenes with just Tashi and Art, throughout the entire film, are without the evident heat, fire, and urgency that is very much present with Patrick and Tashi. I'll get to Art's ahem performance issues in a bit, but yeah )

Then the introduction, Okay. There's this kinda immediate back-and-forth with Patrick and Tashi. And Art's quieter, almost left out of the conversation until he inserts himself. Then she leaves them dizzy in her wake. And Art says they should go. Some might say, "oh poor doggo just didn't think he'd have a chance." Maybe! Or maybe he really was just going to leave without shooting his shot because he wasn't running this show, flirting with her wasn't driven by his desire. It was driven by Patrick's. It was enough for him to meet the future Queen of Tennis, may she forever reign. And they could go back to the room and jerk off in separate beds thinking about her, just like they had that other girl.

He said, "okay let's go". and Patrick just sat there, and Art smiled knowingly, seeing he very clearly was not getting up to walk away. It was Patrick who pushed this. And then again, in the room, Patrick who was STILL talking about her. And Art said, offhandedly, not sounding miserable or even all that hurt, just kind of knowing and teasing, "she's not coming man." Patrick is obsessed, the way you are when you're really into someone. Art is...neutral. Did he find her magnetic? Hell yes. But does he see her as a person who he wants to pursue and further connect to? Not sure.

Okay, and then we have the lovely scene where Tashi asks if they've ever.....and Art get all flustered and No No NO, and Patrick is the one to let slip. And we're also given this lil tidbit that Patrick has dated girls, is apparently somewhat of a player, and Art is...what? Said to be dating no one, possibly having dated no one? Patrick jokes "of course he cleans up with that face", but it's pretty much implied that Art hasn't dated. Again, small things. But now they're starting to add up for me.

Between Patrick being his first sexual experience, Art apparently not being all that into girls in general, and the already established intimacy that they share, I'm thinking hmmm, maybe Art is in the closet. First thought, right out the gate. But maybe not enough for some people. Cool.

Then we get the game. And one could argue Art wanted to win to date Tashi. OR one could argue Art wanted to win so that Patrick wouldn't date Tashi. Hold my beer. lol

Lbr, do you know any 20-year old lad that, had they lost a bet or a game, and promised they wouldn't try and talk to some girl because they'd lost, wouldn't try to slide into the DMs anyway? Like, be for real. Art is quieter than Patrick, but he's smart, talented, cute, he is the one who makes calls during their double's games. He isn't some delicate flower who can't have a conversation. He can hold his own when he wants to.

He does just fine telling Tashi he wants to kiss her when he's good and ready, so if he wanted her, why not go after her? Or at the very least, why not attend her games at Stanford? Why not ask her out to lunch? Why not get close to her under the guise of exchanging messages for Patrick? Folks seem to want to paint him as a saint. He's a teenaged boy. No one takes dating all that seriously at that age, especially not in college, when everyone is hooking up. I'm not saying he isn't loyal to Patrick, but the occasional conversation? Or just being friends to be in her space, since he had so many feelings? Nothing?

And then the FIRST time in a year -- a year of Tashi and Patrick dating -- Art sits down with Tashi and he doesn't talk about her game. He doesn't talk about how beautiful she looks. He doesn't talk about how much he's missed her or what he'd love to do with her (or have her do to him), he talks about.....Patrick. lol wtf.

When Tashi asks him if he's in love with her, what does he say? He doesn't say yes. He doesn't even jokingly say yes, in a flirty, teasing way. He says "who wouldn't be." Think about how carefully that sidesteps her question. Not "of course I am". "Who wouldn't be?" That is not a yes, fam. That's a general, anyone would be in love with you because you're Tashi Fucking Duncan. Thanks, she knows, that's not what she asked. She asked if You love her, and we know how perceptive Tashi is, how astute.

She knows what she's not hearing. That's why she asks again 3 years later, slyly, "you still in love with me, Art?" knowing damn well that man never said he was. (This isn't just about what's being said, this is tone, body language. We speak with more than our words, you know? Anyway...)

So, Patrick comes in to visit. And Art is visibly happy to see him. And then Patrick says it's for Tashi, "Why do you think I'm here?" and look at Art's face. The man is NOT happy. Why? Because Patrick wants to see his girlfriend of a year? Who he talks to weekly? (Who Art already knows he talks to, because they've been dating?) Maybe. Or maybe because Art and Patrick have literally lived in one another's back pockets for 7 years and they've been separated, and the one time in however long Patrick comes back to visit and it's for Tashi. Might that bother him? No?

Okay. Then the fight, then the accident. And now suddenly Art doesn't talk to Patrick for YEARS. YEARS??? Someone explain this to me. Your here-to-fore best friend's girlfriend gets hurt, (and yes that's what I'm arguing Tashi was to him at this point, because aside from one awkward lunch that's all we have of their interaction) and you see it. And she's understandably mad, because she has to blame someone. And you're....Also mad??? Why, again?

Because she's the love of your life? Hmmm, reaching imo, Art barely knew her. They hadn't spent any TIME together. And this is where the realist in me comes out. Very romantic to imagine one night on the beach (with Patrick present) and a snog in a dank hotel room (again with Patrick present) made him fall in love with this woman, but I'm not buying it.

No, his longest lasting and most intimate relationship to that point is Patrick. And that's why the silent treatment is so peculiar. Even Patrick doesn't understand why Art stopped talking to him, and it's not because he's an oblivious dick. Patrick knows Art. He knows Art's patterns, his habits. And he knows Art's years-long freeze out just did not make sense, especially since Tashi had likely stopped blaming him years ago. I mean, Tashi clearly didn't blame Patrick for her injury when she and Art met up 3 years after college. So, if Tashi's not mad anymore (at him, specifically. she's mad in general at the world -- she's bitter and angry and in lots of pain. but she's not holding a grudge at him.), if she wants to move on, why are YOU still mad Art?

Make it make sense.

I argue Art was mad at Patrick for all of it. For leaving him at Stanford, for choosing Tashi, for taking their friendship for granted, for not prioritizing him. And then, somehow, for Tashi's injury too, because Patrick had the nerve to choose her and then be so insecure he couldn't go one day without fucking it up. And then Tashi got hurt and that somehow made it Art's fault (in his mind) and he resented that too. I think Art's resentment and anger was real and intense and I think even he didn't completely understand that this level of betrayal wasn't appropriate for a friend. But that's my take. lol

Anyway, then we get into Tashi and Art. And we see that it's been 3 years since college when they meet up again. So, Tashi had time to fully understand that the career she thought she'd have is never going to happen. And Art says she should be his coach. And she's a better coach than anyone could be, and Art, Art is good at flattery, and he's good at saying the right things and showing her that he'll basically be the anti-Patrick. He will listen to her, he will do as she says, he won't try to take anything she doesn't want to give, and he'll let her lead, he'll let her take him to his wins.

And Tashi, god Tashi needs that. Not a dick inside her. Not a tongue in her mouth. A body. A healthy, working body to mold and shape and make a winner. That's what she needs.

And so let's come back to the opening scenes. I saw someone say it was so crazy to see Art go from getting dragged out of bed to a physical therapist who stretches him out, to a nutritionist who feeds him and gives him his meals, to Tashi who instructs him and trains him. The man doesn't own his own body. He barely has autonomy. He's given it all over.

And if they love each other so much, they should happy with their arrangement right? But look at them. They sit on couches and benches five feet apart. They don't talk about anything but tennis. There's two scenes in the script (only one in the movie) where Art can't get it up for sex and Tashi is trying to coach him into an erection. Literally coach him through sex.

Not like...he has E.D. or he's depressed; then she wouldn't be trying to Jedi-mind trick him into getting hard. In the scene as written, she says something like "come on, you can get there. We always do" Always. As in every time they are trying for sexual intimacy -- which Tashi clearly wants, or she wouldn't be trying to get him there -- this is what they're doing. Working to get him hard enough. Yikes.

At their age, this is pretty confusing. So, this goes into my pile labeled, "things that make me think Art is not sexually attracted to women".

And then we have Art saying "I love you" and Tashi saying "I know." Art saying "I just need to know you'll still love me" and Tashi refusing to give that to him. Art having to beg for affection "just hold me?" and Tashi literally looking dead in the eyes as she acquiesces. This is not a couple that is happily married, if they ever were.

I think they've always had these issues, this mismatch in their needs. But Tashi needs to win so bad and Art needs so badly to give that to her, and to be something other than what he fears he is (nothing, no one). That, I think, is his biggest fear. That Patrick leaves him -- as he did -- and he's got no identity, no function. (This is where that part about co-dependcy the director talks about comes in. The codependency is not just between Tashi and Art). He needs to be able to be something without him. So he sets out to prove that and in the process what he becomes is hollow -- a machine. A body to be used for Tashi's win (HOT! okay, moving on lol).

I do feel there is love between them. You don't maintain a relationship, even a very broken one, for 13 years without loving the person in some way, somehow. I believe that Art has a lot of respect, admiration and affection for Tashi. I believe he loves her, truly. He might even be in love with her, but, from what I'm seeing in the "text" as you say (lol fancy term), I don't think he wants her. I don't think he's sexually attracted to her. Does he need that in a relationship? Maybe not, but he certainly needs a level of physical affection that Tashi does not seem very wiling to give him. Not if he has to beg for it.

Meanwhile, Patrick says Tashi hates Art, a little. And I think he's right. I don't think she wants to hate him, but Art is healthy. More than that he's recovered from an injury and she didn't! And even though he's well enough and good enough to win it all, he'll never want it like she wants it. He'll never eat, sleep, breathe, fuck, die for tennis. He wants to be good, he wants to play well, and he does. But that hunger? That drive that Tashi had (that Patrick also has) to be the best, to dominate on the court, that crazy, insane love with the game of tennis? That's not Art. Art is tired. And he wants to retire. And that makes Tashi hate him a bit.

Now, I don't think he's just a "dick and a racket" to her, but I do think it's interesting that she said it that way. We can't take dialogue just at face value. Dialogue is always doing more than one thing, especially in film, where screenplays are just dialogue and sparse action. She says it, not Patrick. And she's defensive about it.

This is another little clue on the pile of "signs Tashi loves Art but is probably incapable of being IN love with him". lol He isn't just a dick and a racket. He's the father of her kid (maybe! o__o), and the man who gives her what she needs to survive (the wins). But that's...pretty close to being a dick and a racket. lol And well, being a racket is a pretty big deal for Tashi.

Now their engagement didn't seem to be a particularly joyous affair. Tashi was drinking a scotch pretty moodily with that ring on her finger. You say you can't see her marrying without loving him romantically. And that's, again, a very sweet sentiment. But people get married for all kinds of reasons.

Art was already hers in the most important of ways. He'd given her his body. If he wanted her to marry him, why wouldn't she give him that? Who else was she going to marry? She'd gotten into bed with him (figuratively) for his entire career. Her life is getting him to win the grand slam. Her ultimate romance is winning that.

Tennis is her love affair. Why wouldn't she marry the only person who could possibly get her as close to her dream as she would ever get? They get the tax breaks, he binds himself to her even tighter. What's the downside?

And as far as the kid, I have theories (look at her hair!), but suffice it to say even If that's Art's kid, people choose to have/keep kids for all kinds of reasons, no? And it's not always "I love this person, I want to make a baby". Again, very sweet, but sometimes people decide to keep kids cause they hope that shared purpose brings them closer together. And I can see Art wanting the child and Tashi agreeing very practically, because why not? It's what families do, right? They could afford it -- they had present parents, and their kid would be the best tennis player this world has ever seen.

For all her passion and fire with Patrick, for all the sex and good feeling there, she doesn't seem to be particularly enamored of him. He's arguably, the person whose gotten the most from her, the biggest rise out of her, seen her underbelly, and he's the only other person in life she's gotten into bed with repeatedly (presumably). But she's not overly concerned with keeping him for herself. Or getting anything else from him. Monogamy. A confession of love. Affection. She even says it herself,

"Did I say I wanted anyone to be in love with me?"

Maybe she doesn't because she can't give that back.

Sex is shown to be something she wants and participates in with gusto. Romance? Mmmm. Not so much.

The most romantic thing she's ever said has been about tennis. Falling in love across the net. THAT is her romance. It's why she was drawn to Art and Patrick in the first place, Fire&Ice. She saw their intimacy and wanted to see it play out in another way. But ultimately she didn't even stay to watch them fuck -- she just wanted to see some good fucking tennis. And the most alive she looks in her adult life is after their match.

To me, you can see she's unhappy -- that she only feels satisfied when Art plays good fucking tennis, but Art only plays that way with Patrick, and Art was determined to freeze him out, so they were both miserable. Art without romantic love and affection, Tashi in a sexless, unsatisfying marriage. It takes Patrick coming back in to give them both what they need. They don't work without him, love him or hate him.

So yeah....that's my take on Art and Tashi. I think there is so much there, comfort and partnership and mutual need, but.....the romance people are seeing I'm just....I'm not seeing it.

And I didn’t really get to Patrick/Tashi, but THIS is part of it too.🤣

#challengers #challengers 2024 #art x tashi #tashiart #tashi feeling alive when she sees some good fucking tennis #tashi seeing art and patrick and knowing immediately based on their doubles game that the relationship they share is magical #art donaldson #tashi duncan #ot3 #if tashi and patrick could actually communicate #and if art and tashi figure out their shit furreal #musings

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