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ladyandthewalrus · 2 years

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IDV Theory: Laz Cemetery Location and Scottish Andrew

I have been on a lore kick, and wanted to share what I feel is a decently solid theory I haven’t seen broached yet: The Laz Cemetery is is not in Turkey, Germany, or England. It’s in Edinburgh, Scotland.

Buckle up, I have spent several hours on this one!

Part one: connections between Andrew and Percy

- we know for a fact that Andrew, in his work as a Grave Keeper, began digging up bodies for the purposes of selling them to doctors and medical students for study.

-One of the individuals he is procuring corpses for has the initials “M.S.”

-Percy, who is heavily based on the characters of both Victor Frankenstein and his creation, has an assistant named Mikhail. The initials “M.S.” may also be a reference to the author of Frankenstein, Mary Shelley, much in the way Percy is named for her husband, Percy Shelley.

-In the novel, one of the places Victor travels when attempting to create a bride for his creature is Scotland. He spends some time in Edinburgh, which was known as one of Europe’s top cities for academics and scientists. The University of Edinburgh even has an anatomical museum that was constructed in the late Victorian era.

-The very character of Frankenstein is possibly based on a Scottish scientist, James Lind, who was himself from Edinburgh. Mary Shelley met him, and would have discussed with him his interests in experiments regarding galvanism to move the muscles of dead animals. So, albeit indirectly, Percy is based on this man, and it is somewhat reasonable to assume he could be conducting his research in or around Edinburgh.

Part two: Edinburgh’s composition and body-snatching problems+ economic incentives to dig up corpses

-Edinburgh is host to a number of large, elaborate, and very beautiful grave yards. A simple google search will bring up the names of 13 cemeteries located in the city. Many of them have large green areas where the old graves are overtakes by flowers, and most are several centuries old.

-Funerals were very expensive in the Victorian era, often prohibitively so. A poor family spending £5 on a funeral could be expending almost a fourth of their yearly income. Manual laborers like Andrew did not make a lot of money, but bodysnatchers could get a decent amount per body sold.

-IDV plays a bit fast loose with its timeline when referring actual historical individuals and events, but in the 1828, Edinburgh was the hunting ground for a pair of notorious serial murderers who targeted people specifically to sell their bodies to scientists and medical students.

- Based on his deductions, Andrew does not seem to have gone this far; he may have (unwittingly) buried someone alive, which was unfortunately not uncommon in the Victorian era and killed the Night Watchman who caught him bodysnatching. Still not great, but certainly not as bad as killing for the purposes of selling bodies. There was a real problem with bodysnatching in Edinburgh at the time, as generally plagued major cities in the UK in general, as it was often not possible to legally come by a corpse for dissection.

Part Three: Oletus Manor’s location and distance from Laz Cemetery

-Oletus manor is in England. It’s easy to be thrown off because Orpheus has an inexplicably American accent, but the DeRoss family have clear British accents. Additionally, the official map showing the location of the manor in reference to several other important locations places it near the Sacred Heart Hospital.

- The Doctor, Emily, performed work at both Sacred Heart Hospital and White Sand Street Asylum. The Ripper, who was active, as far as we know, solely in Whitchapel, London, was likely a patient there at one point, given the appearance of a small Jack doll in the hallway at White Sand.

- So Oletus Manor is very likely close to London.

-In Andrew’s birthday letter, “M.S.” suggests Andrew head to the manor to lie low for a while after being caught digging up a grave and generally being too prolific in his bodysnatching. He gives him a train ticket in order to get him out of town and to the Manor, where he can bide things over.

- As of 1846, it was possible to take the train from Edinburgh to London on the Great Northern Railway.

- The letter does not imply significant additional travel by other means will be necessary for Andrew to get to the manor.

- From this, we can gather that Laz Cemetery is on the same landmass as Oletus Manor, but sufficiently distant that train is the best option to reach it.

Tl; dr: based on both Edinburgh’s problem with grave robbers, Andrew’s connection to Percy, who was based via his inspiration being taken from Frankenstein, on a Scotsman, and the fact than Oletus Manor is reachable via train from Laz, the cemetery is in Scotland, specifically Edinburgh and Andrew is possibly Scottish too, given he accidentally buried his childhood landlord alive at Laz.

Extra little tidbits:

-Andrew’s surname is German, but I can tell you confidently as someone who has lived in Scotland that Scotland is full of men named Andrew. St. Andrew is even the patron saint of Scotland! Also his ancestry could still be German, as Germans are one of the largest ethnic groups in the UK.

-In his Stormy Night Surprise video, he has an English accent, but consider: Orpheus and Emma are American for some reason. It does not check out.

- In this art of several characters as cats, most of them have “generic” cat ears, but Andrew has ears that turn down, like a Scottish Fold cat!

-Andrew using Scottish slang would be funny. I want him to call someone a dirty scunner.

-Andrew in a kilt is a good idea I think. I do not know if he would enjoy wearing one but I should like to see it.

- If you read this far, I love you and thanks for taking the time to read this!

#identity v #identity v theories #idv theory #idv #speculation #idv lore #Andrew Kreiss #idv speculation #identity v theory

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sirenjose · 7 months

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Hunter Norton Backstory Trailer Analysis

As a rule, the sons of miners follow the occupation of their fathers. Once Norton’s father died, and his mother also likely dead by then too, he had no other choice but to become a miner if he wanted to survive. Especially with how poor they likely were, Norton’s father (and mother) likely left almost nothing for their son, forcing him to work hard to support himself from a young age.

Based on Norton’s comment about living like a “rat” for 20 years, as he is 28 in the present, Norton’s father potentially died when he was 8 (his mother potentially died before then), leaving him an orphan.

A Mine Regulation Act in 1872 prevented children under the age of 12 from working underground. Until then, he would likely have been kept to surface work, such as:

Sorting and transporting materials

Loading and unloading transports

Assisting with general maintenance and cleaning

Delivering messages

Etc…

An Educational Act in 1870, which applied to England and Wales, made schooling compulsory for boys between the ages of 5 and 10, while an Act in 1872 applying to Scotland made school compulsory for kids between 5 and 13.

Once he reached the age of 12, the Regulation Act in 1872 would continued to limit his work hours, which prevented boys between 12 and 16 from working more than 54 hours in 1 week or 10 hours in 1 day. It also required them to have 8 to 12 hour breaks between “periods of employment” (defined as starting when they leave the surface and ending when they return to the surface).

Once he was old enough, regular miners were expected to work at least 12 hour shifts (though this varied from mine to mine) on weekdays. And we know from Norton’s deduction 2 that he worked longer than any of his coworkers, while his 3rd letter states, as a habit, he enters the mines at least 30 minutes before the others.

Conditions in the mine were hot, musty, and cramped (as mine owners didn’t want to spend extra to make them bigger), increasing the chance of accidents. We can actually see just how narrow the tunnels usually were in the trailer.

Miners also worked in complete darkness except for lighting they had to buy themselves. In fact, they had to buy much of their own equipment.

Unfortunately, wages for miners were incredibly low back then. Miners were paid by the quality of what they produced rather than by the hour, giving owners plenty of ways to reduce how they could pay their miner (including by lying about the quality or rigging the scales).

The average wage of coal miners in the 1880s was somewhere between 3s (s = shillings) and 5s per day, with around 4s being closer to the normal, and 5 only if you were lucky. 4 shillings was about $1.20. Generally though wages varied greatly in different districts. After spending on equipment, food, and rent, they could be left with maybe no more than 1s.

Going back to the trailer, it says “Blasting Agent – Mercury (II) Fulminate”. This is an explosive compound made from mercury, nitric acid, and ethanol. It was commonly used as a primary explosive in percussion caps and detonators during the 19th century. When struck or subjected to a shock, it would rapidly decompose and produce a violent explosion. Its role was to initiate the ignition or detonation of the main explosive charge, such as dynamite.

This is the stuff that we see him pouring into the dynamite.

Continuing, we see Norton smiling at a coin, but then his wrist is crushed by the other miners, who steal it from him, taunting him to try to take it back.

Norton actually smiling at the coin helps show Norton’s desire to get out of poverty, an idea he emphasizes later when he describes poverty as a “curse”.

But as we see in the Famitsu Article, people didn’t understand why he tried so hard. It “intimidated” them. Then in Norton’s 2nd letter as well as in this trailer, we see that he was ridiculed by his coworkers. They didn’t think it was possible for him to achieve such a goal. This is reflected with how essentially, at that time “Englishmen recognized if he is in a certain social grade, he is likely to remain there. He’ll never reach a higher class, and didn’t rebel”. Each class “cheerfully” accepted “the lot which providence has assigned” to them.

Norton was different though. He says in the trailer “I once thought the same” after it talks about sons of miners became miners themselves.

He may have initially accepted the same thing everyone else did, but things likely changed over time, the longer he was forced to live this sort of life.

There’s also a good chance part of his change was from working with people like Benny. He learns from them to improve himself (and hopefully improve his chance at earning more), but he also sees how these old miners are, which emphasizes in his brain he doesn’t want to end up like them. He doesn’t want to end up in hospice or stuck in poverty his whole life like they did, just waiting for the day they die.

Norton worked hard, harder and longer than everyone else, in the hopes eventually this would be enough to improve his life, to make it even slightly close to what most would consider a comfortable life, even if it meant only the basics. But it wasn’t enough. The mine owners were greedy. The other miners were all in it only for themselves. His wages were miniscule, and his daily and weekly expenses pretty great. Especially with how back in that time period, mine owners had ways where they attempted to keep their employees indebted to them, to force them to keep working for them, as well as improve their own personal profits as much as possible.

Norton was surrounded by these sorts of people forced to live in such a cruel environment, watching the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. This is reflected in his 2nd letter where he says “This is simply unfair. The poor find it difficult to lead a comfortable life, while all the rich need to do is wave their banknotes around”. He describes all the pain he’s gone through just at the chance to “climb up” out of poverty before describing “how much effort I put into this” as “ridiculous”.

His hard work is exemplified by his 3rd deduction, which describes how he’s done so well his employers always attempt (but fail) to keep him for longer. He works to learn, to improve his skills, and better himself at the chance at earning more and thus potentially work his way out of poverty faster.

We can also see it during the trailer, with him surrounded by all these books and other things.

This quality of his, where he likes to teach himself, to learn, and to improve himself has been implied at other points by Netease, such as by several of his skins or even from part of other collabs, like B.Duck, which described Norton as “full of curiosity” and “likes learning”. It also described him with a “desire to act at MAX” or “highest level of execution”. This means he’s the type of person to put all his effort into whatever he does.

It just wasn’t enough.

We even see the sort of suffering this life has forced him to endure, as in the trailer it shows him coughing due to the damage his lungs have suffered due to his life as a miner.

Hard work wasn’t enough. This is why he eventually turned to the list of 13 mines he learned from Benny, seeking to instead attempt to escape poverty by finding gold.

As explained by @metalIurgy and @Deskdeas, each of the names on this list are European mines or people.

(Also, there seems to be 15 names total on the list, rather than 13)

Von Donnersmarck: House of Donnersmarck, prominent aristocratic family that originated in the region of Silesia. Owned mines.

Georg Wilhelm: Russian military officer and engineer who specialized in mining

Prince Konstantin: prince of Russia, killed in a mining shaft

Ștefan Procopiu: physicist who researched electricity and magnetism

Friedrich Alfred Krupp: German industrialist, developed Krupp steel manufacturer and arms manufacturing company

Saarbergwerke: mining company that operated in the Saarland region of Germany

Romeria: religious pilgrimage (Spain or spanish speaking countries?)

Petro-pavlivska (''Петро-павлівська''): black coal mine located in the Eastern part of Ukraine

Nova Baňa: silver and gold mining site in central Slovakia.

Swansea Copper: Welsh copper mines

Eramet: French multinational mining and metallurgical company

Ivan Polzunov: Russian engineer known for his contributions to steam engine technology

Wowdcole: ?

(Sorry, I can't read the 15th name crossed out in the top left corner of the list)

We know from Norton’s 5th deduction that he tried and failed to find anything at any of the other 12 mines, leaving him with only Golden Cave left.

Back to the trailer, we see him with a map.

The left side looks like it should be a map of Lakeside and the surrounding area, with Golden Cave being the X at the base of the mountains. Count Barriere is the owner of this land, and also the owner of Golden Cave. The right side should be the representation of a map of the mine itself.

Considering how earlier Norton’s coworkers stole Norton’s coin, it’s possible they essentially tried to do the same thing here. Saw him looking at the map, then took it for themselves. Like how Norton’s 8th deduction includes “you need more helpers”, they may have forced him to take them along, and why they explore it on their own without Norton. Especially with the looks on their faces in that scene not showing they had any good intentions.

(A lot of what I’ll say next is said very well by @Yaboku_samaa)

Norton seems to have set all this up in advance, before they came through the mine.

Next we see Norton’s inner conflict. A conflict between morals and vengeance represented by survivor Norton vs Hunter Norton. His Hunter side manages to win out by telling Norton that this is what they deserve, it’s revenge for all the pain and ridicule he’s been put through, all in silence, all without fighting back. He’s forced to keep a façade. To keep his true feelings hidden if he doesn’t want a penalty or reduction in wages. He’s tired of having to live such a hard life of constant suffering and humiliation and hopelessness, and thus why he had hit his limit and the side represented by his Hunter version won out.

(I’m not going to push the idea too much, but it’s possible Norton may have bipolar disorder. That or DID, especially with how he literally talks to himself in his 2nd letter. Especially as both can form in children or young adults who experience long-term physical or emotional distress or abuse. Causes can include childhood trauma (like neglect, abuse, trauma, losing someone like a parent), stressful life events, genetics, etc…)

This decision is shown during the trailer when Norton says “There are ways to make a change”.

Norton’s 2nd letter does an accurate job of summarizing everything:

“Over the last 20 years, I lived like a rat in the gutter. I spent days under the ground in the dark just so I could earn a minimal living. Scars from the blasts crawled all over my face like maggots. The constant scorn and ridicule... I endured it every time just so I'd get a chance to climb up the ladder. It's ridiculous how much effort I put into this—anyway, I've finally managed to crawl out from the rat hole. I no longer have to pick and pull on the disgusting ash. Those who did nothing but laugh at me deserve to stay underground and be stepped on like maggots forever.”

And the trailer visually showing Norton’s inner conflict matches up very well with how quite clearly Norton in his 2nd letter is arguing with himself. The side represented by Hunter Norton is likely the version talking right now, trying to convince him (the side represented by Survivor Norton) to kill the female, “think about how arrogant she is” and all the money he’d get. The fact he is trying to convince himself shows that Norton doesn’t want to do it, and how he isn’t willing to do anything for money. His hatred for his coworkers for their treatment of him for so long was enough for the side represented by Hunter Norton to convince him to trigger the explosion on them, but that motivation doesn’t exist here. Right now, his less moral side is trying to motivative him with money and thinking about others as “arrogant” and essentially mean, as well as the doubt that she could do something to him.

But that may not be enough to convince him next time to actually do it if he’s given a chance. At Golden Cave, that was his last chance to try to find gold. He’d gone through 12 other mines (and 20 years of pain on top of that) with nothing to show for it. Norton may be very stubborn and determined, but even he was growing so very desperate, which is shown well by Norton’s 5th deduction as well as by the trailer itself. So it makes sense that Norton was mentally not in the right place and vulnerable to the sort of temptation we see him going through in the trailer.

Norton is alone. No family. No money. Suffering from lung problems. Has never been shown kindness and forced to grow up in a very cruel environment. The only thing keeping him moving forward and losing all hope is by focusing on his goal of getting out of poverty and achieving some form of a comfortable life with at least the basic necessities. This is shown very well by Norton’s 4th birthday emote “Savings”, where Norton takes out a single gold coin and thinks about simple worn clothes and a loaf of bread, while the description reads “Endure it, Norton. You’re almost there”.

For years he attempted to push on, but little by little, his coworkers, his employers, his environment, it all chipped away at him until he felt he had no other choice. I believe the trailer does a good job of emphasizing how his main motivation wasn’t greed but desperation, hopelessness, and the pain he was subjected to by his coworkers and everyone. It’s life or death, and this mine is his last chance, and his deep misery that pushes him over the edge, so it’s no wonder he doesn’t care about anyone anymore. He’s always been alone, always had to be the one to look out for himself. No one else could be trusted. They would only take advantage of him or even potentially steal what little he had. Yet even still he hesitated to pull the trigger, which I think says a lot about Norton.

Despite the decision being made, he doesn’t run after he sets off the explosion. He accepts what happens. There’s no way he didn’t know what was going to happen, not with how long he’s worked as a miner, and how much he’s learned in his own time. It could be the side represented by his survivor version sees the scar as punishment for his deeds. It could be he knew if he wanted to get his revenge he had to deal with the potential scars.

But he was here not just for revenge, but for the chance at finding gold. Hunter Norton’s character backstory says the accident brought Norton “Golden Luck” or “a gold rush of fortune”, so it sounds like he did find something.

We do know he at least found the meteorite, which is what he made his magnet from, so this could be what is referred to in Hunter Norton’s backstory.

Along with the above, we could connect whatever his “golden luck” was with Memory’s comment during Time of Reunion, where she says “they seemed to be looking for something other than ore”.

This is repeated during AoM with a newspaper clipping about rumors being false of precious metal ore in the mine.

Considering Golden Cave’s rumor is “despite not a single piece of gold was ever found, Count Barriere still got what he wanted with this land”, these statements should be talking about the same thing.

It’s possible Barriere was after the meteorite, especially as the only things we know that came out of that mine after it collapsed were Norton and the chunks of the meteorite he carried.

There are potential parallels from Lily’s essence, which connects to Golden Cave, and her essence story says “The mine is filled with special phosphorescent ores, which brought wealth to their ancestors but also cursed them with phosphorescent illness”. Considering in the famitsu article it says the magnet aka the meteorite may have been affecting his brain, it’s possible the “phosphorescent ores” is meant to parallel the meteorite.

If that is what Barriere is after, maybe there’s a chance he reached out to Norton afterwards, and he could’ve been the one to offer Norton all that money in exchange for killing some female. Especially when we know Count Barriere has a lot of money based on Lily’s backstory, as he even offered her enough to survive for 2 years and even more via making her the owner of the IOU likely belonging to Orpheus for him buying Oletus Manor.

Anyways, we also know from Norton’s 3rd letter that he “dug his way out through a mountain creek a few dozen meters away from the mine” with only “minor burns”. We also know from the Famitsu Article that people didn’t talk to him, they said a bare minimum then kept a “wide berth”, and considering the very visible scar on his face, it is possible this was the reason they avoided him (they were frightened of him. Like we see at the end of the trailer, it is possible people saw him as a “monster”, especially back then when these sorts of things weren’t treated or seen as kindly as today).

#idv #identity v #norton campbell #prospector #Fool's Gold #fools gold #Hunter Norton #idv norton #identity v norton #idv prospector #identity v prospector #idv fool's gold #identity v fool's gold #idv fools gold #identity v fools gold #idv hunter norton #identity v hunter norton #sirenjose analyses and theories

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mintytealfox · 4 months

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Ey yooo Frederick is an absolute mess but these right here caught my eye

Those look like burns 👀

maybe those are from when the place just combusts into flames 👀 so maybe he does make an appearance in the last game instead of being KO'ed from the get go lol

Norton and Frederick comparing burn scars pfff

#just thoughts #identity v #idv #identity v composer #idv composer #identity v frederick #fredrick kreiburg #idv frederick #frederick kreiburg #idv theory #minty musings #minty speaks

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eclairris · 3 months

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Drabbles from Re-Playing AOM

OKAY SO- woe Spoilers and speculations upon ye

I'm still reflecting on the card that's deliberately put into Alice's room underneath a picture frame of the Deross family. It's probably just cut and dry like "ohhh Alice is a sacrifice" but I can get more nitpicky with it

On the back it says "Welcome to Join the Hunting Game" which could be two things

Either A really poor translation on IDV's part, and is further saying the obvious that Alice is a sacrifice (Which would make sense given how we've pretty much gotten hunter versions of da capo excluding her, if you count Frederick being a hallucination influenced by Orpheus' exposition, and how Melly is on the near horizon).

Or it could quite literally be saying "Here pookie, stop running and succumb to the delulu" and putting hunter Alice into concretion But I think it's also probably just saying regardless that Alice is the direct sacrifice that Orpheus believes will keep the games going (clearly something went wrong) given how lambs are treated within religion and folklore.

I also did replay It and select every visit option I could for that sweet loredrop and I haven't seen anyone talk about this either.

The person literally saying that is young orph (orphan, If you will). The whole muse corridor points into details about the raid itself, which is odd because just a cutscene prior was Alice getting chased by hallucinations down that same corridor. It got me thinking about how IDV developers have considered giving Alice a hunter form.

So what do I know about this bird?? Uh the bare minimum actually but it can serve as some type of drop with how the story's going. He's not saying Alice is the Nightingale. He's saying she's better than it, which could resort to the potentiality of hunter Alice taking on the form of a "nightingale" if we go off the fact that most identity swaps with heavy lore (at least in da Capo's case) is based on either regression, repression, or insecurities.

Norton - Repression. He's not keeping up face when it comes to his identity swap. Literally chaos incarnate. Orpheus - Projection. Nightmare can quite literally be called Orpheus' Mary Sue oc. That's the post. Mary/Frederick technically isn't influenced more by Frederick himself but rather Alice's way of seeing it. Which fucks up a lot but let's not talk about it. I'd say it leans more towards Identification.

Melly could potentially have some correlation to the odd point Orph brought up

"After all, there's a price to pay for being unfaithful, isn't that right Mrs. Plinius."

Which is probably saying that Mr good ol plinius wasn't loyal and probably either had an affair or did something behind melly's back.

If the point of Alice being braver than the Nightingale is anything to go off of and whatnot then it could be safe to say her identity could be based off that if she ever gets one. It could play off of her bravery and need to look towards the future as opposed to Orpheus being stuck in the past. It could also explain why we haven't heard or seen much when it comes to Nightingale, because of two reasons

they're saving her for some big story update much like the rest of the da capo identity swaps.

Orpheus has been PROVEN to be an unreliable narrator. Surely wanting to dissect Orpheus under a microscope isn't delusional enough.

#identity v #alice deross #norton campbell #orpheus #idv theory #fan theory #ramblings #melly plinius #journalist idv #novelist idv #frederick kreiburg #composer idv #idv entomologist #idv #eclairs nonsense

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quoththeowl31 · 7 months

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Soo I also jumped on the bandwagon of "Orpheus is behind everything" theory.

So I have honestly a theory and though this is probably not really what's gonna happen I still want to write it out.

I've mentioned to others how I find that Orpheus often puts himself in a sort of "Heroic" role. Granted whatever's going on with his head after inhaling all of those drugs, still at his core, he feels he needs to be a savior but it's pretty twisted by now.

Whatever he was for the DeRoss family aside from being Alice's playmate, it's clear they were close and the events of what happened deeply scarred him especially if he couldn't do anything to save his loved ones (he was a child) and that afterwards he couldn't reunite with Alice, the only other survivor he knew.

I definitely think during the events of AoM that he knows Alice is Alice DeRoss and he's set up the game in a way to possibly "save" her. But first, he needs her to break. So he's biding his time and putting her through much of what the others are going through, drugging her, and messing with her head. In a sense he needs her to lose her sense of agency which is something she fought tooth and nail for since the tragedy.

Then we have Norton Campbell who honestly probably has a lot in common with Alice in a sense of the need to establish a sense of agency in his life and to him that looks like joining the ranks of the wealthy despite how much he resents them and was pushed to his mental limits and has become desperate.

Often we've seen Norton cast as the villain compared to Orpheus, but Orpheus is established as an unreliable narrator and if you look at quite a few of Norton's skins, he's often a sort of Anti-Hero at least.

I definitely think Norton is being set up. He was lured in with the promise of money to play a role and what's supposed to happen is that Orpheus comes along and "defeats" Norton (kills him most likely) and "saves" Alice and possibly in a way claim her. I theorize that he wants to own her if the drugs potentially mess with her head enough that she loses herself.

However this could very much turn on its head because Norton is smarter than people give him credit for and Orpheus, no matter how much he wants it, can't control everything.

But this is a theory and at the very least a fun little what if story.

#identity v #idv novelist #idv journalist #idv prospector #identity v theory #alice deross #norton campbell #idv orpheus

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neoplasm230 · 3 months

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Laios and Luchino outfit swap

#dungeon meshi #delicious in dungeon #laios touden #identity v #idv #idv luchino #idv professor #luchino diruse #spoilers ahead!#two autistic massive biology nerds #who are friendly to people but largely alone regardless #have a deep respect and understanding of nature that other humans usually don’t understand #experiment their theories using their own bodies #and because of their relentless pursuit of knowledge end up becoming the monsters they study #these two silly billys scratch a very specific itch that my lil autistic brain loves

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akuma-tenshi · 14 days

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hello fellow idv'ers i made a twitter thread on ithaqua, nathaniel, the morningstar essence, and its parallels to the canon story and how it's basically itha's power fantasy

full transcript + the pictures i used under the cut if you don't want to / can't use twitter (completely understandable), just a warning it is LONG

the post i was quoting got deleted before i could finish this. so anyway here's a thread on my thoughts on the morningstar essence, its parallels to itha and nathaniel's dynamic in canon, and how i think it's the perfect example of canon themes in an essence

before i start: this may be heavy on speculation on itha's personality. itha is a character who feels like we're given both a lot of content on his personality and none at all, so if what i say comes off as a reach, take it with a grain of salt. i'm not the arbiter of itha.

also this thread is not very nice to nathaniel. he's grown on me as a character after looking more into him for a fic but itha isn't nice to him here so i won't be either. i also refer to ithaqua as itha for the sake of the character limit. i'm aware that isn't is full name.

so my best friend and i have talked about this at length, and it's been in my thoughts for a while. at the end of the day, morningstar is itha's power fantasy, the strength he wished he had over nathaniel. at the end of the day, he won, he killed nathaniel, but nathaniel perhaps got off easy in his eyes. a quick death was possibly a mercy, as he couldn't really afford to make him suffer; at the end of the day, itha likely cares a lot more about protecting his mother than hurting her tormentor, meaning he just needed nathaniel out of the way.

however, it's likely itha wishes nathaniel did suffer. it's very interesting how in morningstar's trailer (which will be referenced a lot here), he's portrayed in chains, very similarly to how itha's mother is seen in her captivity in itha's original trailer.

and while yes, "show the character chained up if they're imprisoned" is just imagery 101, it's still an interesting parallel, and i doubt it's a coincidence. the difference here is that nathaniel is the one in chains, not itha or his mother; nathaniel is the powerless one.

it all really screams "i'm going to make you suffer the way you made my mother suffer", and while that isn't the theme of the essence itself, it's absolutely something that carries through from itha's original story. the use of themes that only really hit right if you take in the context of the original character is honestly a genius way to get people invested not only in the essence storyline, but the character as well, and like mentioned above, they use it a lot. however i do think it's best applied when it comes to the morningstar essence.

another interesting detail is that nathaniel was a king in the morningstar essence, being literally referred to as a "walking sun". and it takes this a lot further than just "parallels with itha and his mother" — instead of being in a disadvantaged position and persecuted for simply being a scapegoat, nathaniel is in a position of power — one that was possibly unjust or cruel, given other skins in the essence; we'll get to that later — and fell, was overthrown by his brother who was cast out. again, mirroring their dynamic in canon.

again, i'll get to the "possibly unjust ruler" thing later, but the idea that itha is less interested in a direct reversal of their roles and more in making nathaniel "fall from grace", and that being, in his eyes, a more fitting punishment than what he got, is fascinating to me.

i also want to discuss the use of colours. in canon, itha and nathaniel are opposites — itha's association with cooler, darker colours (mostly black / grey with a bit of bluish-teal) against nathaniel's brighter, fiery red cloak.

morningstar initially took me aback because it's such a departure from the theme we'd seen with this hunter: a character heavily associated with ice and wind and snow being given an s-tier that is so heavily reliant on reds and fire and sun imagery. but it makes so much sense if you think about how he's now in nathaniel's place. the tormentor, the jailor, the king dressed in fiery red. notice how he still keeps the darker colours: black still dominates his design, with the red cloak (a clear imitation of nathaniel's) taking on a much darker shade than the reds commonly associated with nathaniel. every bright colour used is either toned down or contrasted against something darker. and not only does that fit with the eclipse theme — a bright sun covered by a dark mass — but also itha's reflection or imitation of nathaniel.

so about the "unjust king" idea. this doesn't really come through in the original trailer, but it's expanded upon in the descriptions of the skins themselves. and while i do think the idea is a little confused and not fully realised, it does add some context to the story.

first of all, uh.. slavery exists!! or existed. it's made clear in the descriptions of the encroached, the chosen, the suffered, and (possibly) the zealot's descriptions that there was a clear class divide, with a suffering under-class and privileged upper-class.

this is also mentioned in the design / story notes of the essence. that under nathaniel, there was a clear divide between the classes, and that with itha's help, the enslaved / outcasted were able to rise up, help overthrow his brother, and establish a new order in the chaos.

it's clear that nathaniel's "order" could only be maintained with this hierarchy, and when it's challenged and overthrown, he and the tower fall, replaced with itha's "chaos". again, it's not a fully realised story and has its holes, but it's fitting nonetheless.

it's also mentioned in the description for morningstar. "witness them break free from their shackles and bring down the sun" is not only a banger line imo, but also a VERY strong connection to itha's position and how, despite being in a "weaker" position than nathaniel, he was still able to overpower and kill him. the idea of an oppressed under-class rising up and overthrowing their oppressors is not only a common storyline, but also very much matches to itha, thrown away and forgotten, besting nathaniel, who was raised to be more powerful.

there are also luchino and "nathaniel"'s descriptions, which convey the idea of itha being born into this position but being cast out, only to return later, which is present in both storylines.

in canon, itha was believed to be stillborn. not wanting his birth to be a stain on the family, his parents abandoned him in the woods and claimed nathaniel as their only son. the "witch" took him in and raised him as her child before she was captured by nathaniel and his mob and itha had to kill nathaniel in order to rescue her. itha being cast out against his will in both storylines — being abandoned at birth due to his "stillbirth" in canon, and being sentenced to death / exiled in the morningstar essence — only to return and exact his revenge is an interesting addition that further ties the two stories together.

one more detail i'd like to include before finishing this thread is the inclusion of talk of gods (including false ones) and demons. morningstar is clearly inspired by lucifer, who is also referred to as both the morning star and helel (which is not just a fandom name; morningstar is referred to as helel in the official backstory to the essence). i won't get too into the religious stuff but lucifer is known to have been cast out of heaven for proclaiming himself to be above god — also a crime committed by itha in the essence.

i could do a whole other thread on the religious ties in this essence, but that's the long and short of it. there's a lot of discussion of the "word of god" and "beliefs", and even references to the tower of babel, another biblical tale.

so why am i talking about this? first of all, witch hunts, which nathaniel and itha's backstory heavily draws from, were not only infamously known for targeting almost exclusively women, but were also religiously motivated. those who led them believed they were doing the righteous thing by hunting down these "witches", and that they were only doing what was right in the eyes of god. nathaniel himself was most likely religious; i can't speak on itha, but i do think he at least knew of religion, with his talk of gods and demons in his trailer.

and that gets into my second point. in itha's trailer, he talks a good bit about gods and demons, particularly their atrocities committed against his mother. the use of and references to religion in this trailer are put front and center and expanded on in the morningstar essence, helping to give more light to the themes touched on in itha's trailer.

in conclusion, while i don't think the morningstar is the very best essence, i do think it's incredible and is the best example of the creators taking a theme that's present in the original story, expanding on it, and making something wholly new and incredible.

i hope this thread has been interesting and perhaps given a new appreciation for both itha and his essence. thank you so much for reading if you got this far. tune in next week where i analyse all of ganji's skins to make a point about how integral freedom is to his character /j

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mrgreyishere · 5 months

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OMG THE PUPPETEER BACKSTORY VID FINALLY CAME OUT I WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF A QUICK MATCH WHEN I SAW THE NOTIFICATION

Anyway, it was kinda confusing but I watched it back a few times and slowing it down, here's what I noticed:

- When Matthias opens the door towards the end to see the puppet in the coffin(?) In the newspapers on the ground, you can make out that the fire was documented. Indicating that this is either right after the event, or years after the event (which I think is more likely considering that it seemed like he hadn't seen the puppet in a while) also, you can read on the newspapers that the "head" of the act's wife died in the fire. (Or something along those lines)

- "Louis" appears to be the name of the puppet, so I'll be referring to the puppet as such. Towards the end, when "Louis" is covered in flames, if you wear headphones, you can hear what sounds like children shouting his name. (Maybe the kids he was performing for?)

- At the end, there are dates appearing to the birthday song, this could mean that's when Matthias's birthday is.

Some theories and assumptions I'm making based on the video:

Theory #1 - I think a really cool idea would be that as a child (or an adult), Matthias helped with his parents shows (I'm assuming the guy holding Louis is his father) was used for Louis's show to give the allusion that the puppet doesn't have strings or something, essentially scamming the audience. This would explain why he hates Louis so much, having to always hear Louis's name being cheered instead of being given the credit he feels he deserves. It also explains why he wants to destroy the puppet, inevitably burning it.

Theory #2 - (I believe this theory to be more plausible) Matthias could genuinely be trapped inside the puppet, like his soul or spirit is embedded in it or something. This would explain why he is always "trapped in a nightmare" it would also explain why he looks so injured (his missing eye, torn shoulder, facial scars) maybe Matthias died and somehow (perhaps his father?) Was able to embed his soul into it. Also, this would be perfect considering that it was leaked that his ability is turning into his puppet. I mentioned before that the dates at the end could be his birthday, considering that the whole video mentions birthdays. But I also think that I could also be his death date. If this theory is true, this means that the date that pays first could be his birthday, and the second, his death date. One thing that his theory doesn't explain though, is how Matthias burns Louis, it could just be a metaphor, but it could also be literal.

Thank you if you read this far! If you noticed something in the video that I didn't, or have your own theories and interpretations, please reply!

Edit: Also I've heard that he's prolly connected to the Moonlit river park, and that he may have started the fire there

Edit #2: I also find it interesting that they don't show how he got his injuries, perhaps it'll be revealed in his deductions or letter (?)

Edit #3: For now it's safe to assume that the injuries were from the fire, unless the whole "soul embedding theory" is true

#matthias czernin #idv matthias #matthias czernin idv #idv puppeteer #idv #identity v #theory #puppeteer idv

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fishandships · 1 year

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so now we have FOUR versions of the "Manor Family Photo" - two with Orpheus; the one with just him and his parents and the one with Bane's parents, their faces obscured:

and two with Alice, one with normal eyes and the newest one with button eyes:

and all that confusion aside, i'm most intrigued by the significance of button eyes vs. regular eyes. we know it's significant who has them and who doesn't, and we've seen plenty of examples of this.

the earliest example we see of this contrast is in "Go Hunting"/"Da Capo", where Orpheus and "Memory" have normal eyes while Norton has button eyes (EXCEPT in his Hunter form/when he has Detention):

and then even more intriguingly, we got to see Luchino's eyes change the literal second he was bitten by the mysterious reptile, even before he became a Hunter:

see also Yhidra's followers permanently having one button eye and one normal eye, implying that this condition is related to Yhidra somehow.

but of course all the Hunters have normal (or relatively normal) eyes and all the Survivors have button eyes (in their shorts and in-game, although we've seen pre-game portraits where they also have normal eyes), and the family portraits and "Memory"/Alice show that there is a significance beyond that. one could argue based on Luchino's short that the difference is a particular connection being made, but Norton going back and forth between the two states, as well as the Survivors being seen prior to the Game with normal eyes, disproves that imho.

AND THEN THERE'S THIS.

according to NetEase, "humans" have normal eyes, and "puppets" have button eyes. but again, why do Yhidra's followers have one of each? why does Luchino become "human" when he is bitten by Yhidra's reptile? why does Norton only appear "human" sometimes?

NetEase what is the explanation???

#feel free to share your theories i've given myself plenty of headaches over this #idv #identity v #river's idv deductions #river babbles

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omgnorton · 1 month

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Similarities between Alice and American mcGee' Alice (also Alice madness returns included)

Ok look when u look at both chars in depth it's not similar but if u squint real hard it matches

Warning:I'm bad at writing these things

Ok first of all the artstyle in Alice's background story and cutscenes from Alice madness returns

Second both their families have been murdered and house goes up in flames

(OK NOT SUPER ACCURATE BUT I NEED U TO SQUINNNTT)

Third they both seek the truth and like someone that they trusted trying to make them forget their trauma from the massacre

Ok I don't have photos for Orpheus shhh I'm gonna reach the image limit

Fourth they both get "special treatment" in other words hella experimented on

I'm not a good essayer but I had a vision ok

I had to make u squint bc alice madness returns has very dark themes when it comes to story and lore and this is prob an Easter egg at most if it is one and won't be useful in predicting the story

#identity v #idv #alice deross #alice madness returns #idv journalist #crack theory

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jellykinss · 8 months

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IMPORTANT WAX ARTIST LORE UPDATE. I’M NOT SURE IF ANYBODY ELSE REALIZED THIS MAYBE I’M JUST SLOW (most likely conclusion) BUT HOOOLY SHIT BUCKLE IN BECAUSE THIS IS GONNA BE A POST AND A HALF.

➪ WHY PHILIPPE AND CHRISTINA’S CHARACTER DAY IS APRIL 16TH.

ok so. we know that philippe as a character is based on philippe curtius, a swiss physician and wax sculptor who served as the mentor of marie tussaud, aka madame tussaud, creator of the famous celebrity wax sculpture exhibition of the same name and who christina is based on.

the two were closer than just mentor and student. marie saw philippe as an uncle, possibly even a father figure. definitely not the brother-and-sister relationship our philippe and christina have, but obviously idv backstories are never 1:1 with their irl counterparts. anyway, at the age of 88, tussaud passed away in her sleep, either from old age or another unknown reason.

but what day did she pass?

this leads me to believe that in-universe, christina also died on april 16th— or more accurately, philippe returned home and found her dead on that day. i know i said idv backstories are never 1:1, but it’s too specific of a date to not mean anything!!! but of course, as always, this is just a theory of mine, and we’ll have to wait until next year’s character day to get any kind of confirmation. but if it does get confirmed, i’m gonna brag so fucking hard about it.

#on today’s episode of jelly spergs about her f/os:#identity v #idv wax artist #idv philippe #idv christina #lore post #theory #bipoc selfship #autistic selfship #feifei.com

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alexnettaker · 2 months

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Norton and Orpheus Theories

does anyone have any Norton and Orpheus theories? id love to hear some considering i have some of my own that i haven't seen most people mention!

#orpheus idv #norton campbell #identity v norton #identity v #idv #idv theories #ask

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sirenjose · 6 months

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Analysis of the Food/Diet of the Lower Class in the Victorian era

(It was a bit tricky for me to find sufficiently detailed answers about the time and group I was looking for, as I wanted a bit more than the basics. Apologies for any mistakes)

Bread was a staple of the lower-class diet, such as wholemeal, rye bread, unleavened bread (like oatcakes), etc.. For the poor, it was often made of cheap-quality flour and likely denser than modern bread.

These could be supplemented with whatever vegetables that were cheapest as well as locally available at that time of year. Onions were among the cheapest (half penny for a dozen, cheaper if they were bruised) and available all year. They were more expensive in late spring, at which point they could be substituted by leeks. Watercress was another cheap staple (halfpenny for 4 bunches from April to January/February) and were regularly eaten at breakfast. Cabbage was cheap and easily available, along with broccoli, with lettuce and radishes available in summer. Carrots and turnips were inexpensive staples, especially in winter, and they along with cabbage were often used in stews and soups.

As for fruit, apples were the cheapest and most commonly available (from August to May). Cherries were also fairly cheap (from May to July). Pears, blackberries, and plums were available throughout autumn. Then there were gooseberries, plums and greengages (in late September), raspberries, and strawberries. Not all fruits were affordable, like oranges, which were imported from Spain in winter but were expensive and often given as gifts, and pineapples, which were a sign of wealth.

Potatoes were another staple and were prepared in various ways, including boiled, mashed, roasted, or fried. They grew well in Britain’s mild weather, making them easy to produce and sell, meaning they were cheap and thus became a frequent meal.

In terms of meat, the lower class ate it infrequently, maybe once a week, with the worst off even less often. Pork was 1 of the most common types of meat, when it could be afforded.

As a result, the poor made the most of it (using and eating every part of it). For example, a cook would boil a piece of beef or mutton with vegetables one day (probably Sunday, the only day many people had off from work), then return to the boiling pot the next day and skim the fat off from the top to be used for frying or pie crusts. Then he or she could set the liquid back to boiling, adding a stingy amount of oatmeal (one recipe recommends a tablespoon of oatmeal for every pint of liquid) to produce another nourishing meal from the broth. Recipes call it a pot liquor soup; we’d more likely call it gruel.

Gruel, made by boiling grains, like oats, rice, or barley, in water or milk, was a common food option for the poor as it required minimal ingredients and was easy to prepare. It often served as a breakfast or basic meal.

Porridge refers to a thicker and more substantial version of cooked grains, usually oats, in water or milk. It was typically cooked for a longer amount of time, resulting in a creamier and heartier consistency. It was also a popular breakfast choice due to it being nutritious and filling.

They tended to buy cuts and trimmings of meat no one else wanted, which were referred to as “block ornaments”. Examples included sheep’s organs, shanks, gristly bits, and heads. Most of these cuts were tough or didn’t have much meat on them, but they could produce a filling broth. Tripe (lining of stomach of animals like cattle, sheep, and pig), liver, meat on the bone (shin or cheek), and offal (aka organ meats like brains, hearts, sweetbreads, liver, kidneys, lungs, and intestines) were also cheap.

Chicken was rare, as the birds were kept for eggs, and usually not eaten unless the bird stopped laying eggs.

Later in the Victorian era, bacon became a popular choice at breakfast (alongside kippers aka a type of fish made from herring, eggs, and porridge).

Drippings was another common part of the lower class diet. Drippings refer to the fat that is collected as a result of cooking meat. When meat, such as beef, pork, or poultry, is roasted or grilled, the fat present in the meat melts and drips down into the pan or tray. This fat is then collected and saved, typically in a container or jar, for later use. They add flavor and richness to dishes and are commonly used for making gravies, sauces, or to enhance the flavor of roasted vegetables, as a few examples.

Since meat was a luxury, the lower class tended to go for cheaper proteins, like eggs and legumes.

Many East End homes kept hens in their backyards, with a couple hens able to produce up to a dozen eggs per home per week. Hard cheeses like cheddar was produced countrywide and so available all year round, meaning it was able to enter the diet of the lower class. It was a good protein, kept well, and even stale it could be eaten toasted with bread.

Regarding legumes (ex: beans, peas, peanuts, lentils, etc…), they were a cost-effective source of protein, fiber, and nutrients. Dried legumes were more affordable and available all year round. Beans (good from July to September) were a staple for many lower class, often cooked in stews, soups, or baked dishes. Peas (affordable from June to July) and lentils were also commonly consumed.

In terms of drinks, tea was very common. It became more affordable with the help of increased trade, improved transportation, and advancements in production methods. The poor drank tea that tended to be weaker, as they reused the tea leaves several times before disposing of them. Black tea was common, the most popular being those imported from countries like China and India.

Milk was widely consumed but not usually in large quantities, due to cost and adulteration fears (aka fear of contamination). Beer was also common (made with low alcohol content so you didn’t get drunk), even for women and older children, as water wasn’t safe to drink back them (easily contaminated, but the brewing process killed off the germs). Coffee was another option, but it tended to be more expensive than tea, beer, or milk.

Sugar became cheaper at least after 1874, but still tended to be relatively expensive, especially for those on lower incomes. Thus it remained more of a luxury item and consumed in mostly smaller quantities or for special occasions.

Butter, like sugar, would’ve also been considered a relatively expensive item, and thus not as widely consumed. Instead, they used cheaper options of fat, like lard and dripping.

Nuts were another slightly more expensive item. But there were some options if a poorer individual could afford them. Chestnuts were the most common (favorite street snack in chestnut season, running from September to January). There were also filberts and hazelnuts (available from October to May) and walnuts (seasonal). Imported almonds and brazil nuts were more expensive, but commonly consumed around Christmas as a “treat”.

Even if they could afford things like sugar, butter, or nuts, the lower class likely would’ve typically used their income on more basic necessities and things they needed for their job or life.

Individuals were paid on Saturday, and that plus the absence of refrigeration affected the weekly menu. It’s possible the lower class at least may have possessed basic cooking utensils, like a skillet, pot, or kettle. The ‘best’ and relatively most expensive meals were taken on Saturday evening and Sunday, though the poorest would often buy food at the end of Saturday trading, at the cheapest possible prices. Menu choices became cheaper through the week: purchases of food would diminish in quantity as the food budget shrank, and meat would often only be purchased once a week, though vegetables and fruit were usually purchased and consumed on a daily basis.

The very poor might purchase cheaper older fruits, vegetables, and meat on the verge of edibility, though this didn’t really diminish the nutrients in them much.

The lack of refrigeration facilities meant that meats eaten hot on any one day were almost inevitably consumed (cold) on the second day. Any more leftovers were, due to incipient spoilage, curried or hashed on the third day. Spices and the higher heat involved in frying the hash would disguise any taint to the meat and lessen the chances of food poisoning.

Men worked on average 9–10 hours per day for 5.5-6 days a week, giving a range from 50–60 hours of physical activity per week. Factoring in the walk to and from work increases the range of total hours of work-related physical activity up to 55–70 hours per week. They likely required around 5000 calories a day.

The daily wage for poor miners back then may have been around 3-4 shillings, with the weekly wage then around 18-24 shillings. In dollars, 3-4 shillings was likely around $1. In today’s money, 3-4 shillings a day may be around £4 to £5 or $5 to $6.

#idv #identity v #norton campbell #prospector #fool's gold #fools gold #hunter norton #idv norton #identity v norton #idv prospector #identity v prospector #idv fool's gold #identity v fool's gold #idv fools gold #identity v fools gold #sirenjose analyses and theories

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