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drwcn · 4 years

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Hey I hope you're doing well! I have a question I hope you can answer. Jin Guangshan adresses JC as Jiang Cheng instead of Sect Leader Jiang or Jiang Wanyin ?? like, is that usual ? or is that considered rude ? I mean despite their Sects having been considered brother-sects or smth like that it's not like jc and jgs actually had a decent relationship whatsoever? so shouldn't he at least use his courtesy name? o,o i noticed this at the banquet episode after the hunt and??

Hi Anons, I don’t know if you’re the same person, but you guys popped into the inbox next to each other and the questions are fairly similar so I’ll just answer it in one go.

For how sect leaders should address each other, I reblogged a [post] I was tagged in awhile ago. :)

The TLDR in that post is basically saying, if Jin Guangshan wanted to be REALLY courteous and if he and Jiang Cheng were strangers when they were introduced and Jiang Cheng was already a Sect Leader then yes, technically, Jin Guangshan should call Jiang Cheng “Sect Leader Jiang”. But because Jiang Cheng’s parents and Jin Guangshan and his wife Madam Jin were (likely good) friends, Jin Guangshan is considered a “zhangbei” 长辈, someone of the older generation. He is treating Jiang Cheng as a child, and not as a fellow Sect Leader. Therefore it is not weird that he would call Jiang Cheng by his birth name. From a purely language point of view, it isn’t rude, not at all, and I want to stress this point.

For Jin Guangshan to call Jiang Cheng by his birth is not rude. His sister once had an engagement with Jin Guangshan’s son. Jiang Cheng is very young, and his parents had been friends with the Jin family. In modern context, Jiang Cheng would’ve had to call Jin Guangshan Jin shushu or Jin bobo (Uncle Jin).

Imagine for a second that Jin Guangshan is not a shit face, and that he deeply cared about the Jiang children. In that case, his calling Jiang Cheng would not be seen as an impertinence but a show of familiarity, of their close relationship.

What is insidious in this case is the intent. Technically, since Jiang Cheng is Sect Leader now, he should be paid a higher respect. While it’s not rude of him, Jin Guangshan’s intent is very obviously to diminish Jiang Cheng’s importance and his weight in the political landscape. Oh, you’re just a boy, you don’t know anything.

To show familiarity but also respect to a wanbei (someone of younger generation, like a pseudo-nephew), a polite term Jin Guangshan could’ve used is xianzhi 贤侄, which means “gracious/kind nephew”. In context, imagine like... a historical novel written in English where one person can say to another “my good man” - it has the same connotation. Obviously, Jin Guangshan is a shit, and we all know this.

As for why we don’t see other people use Jiang Cheng’s courtesy name, I think that’s a just a bias of narration. For most of the story, we see Jiang Cheng interact mostly with family (mother, father, brother, sister, and nephew). All of these people would’ve used familial terms (either A-Cheng, Jiang Cheng for WWX, or jiujiu for Jin Ling).

Pre-Sunshot Campaign, the only other person we saw who was close with Jiang Cheng was Nie Huaisang and he used Jiang-xiong, which is a term for close friends.

Subordinates of other sects would’ve referred to Jiang Cheng as Jiang-gongzi, or Jiang-zongzhu when he became Sect Leader.

If you think about it, who exactly in his generation would’ve had opportunity to call him Jiang Wanyin to his face? Not that many people. Jiang Cheng’s name exists in Wei Wuxian’s narration, and he is always Jiang Cheng to him, because that’s his brother. However, if MDZS was told through... say Lan Xichen’s point of view, Jiang Cheng would’ve certainly been referred to more as Jiang Wanyin.

The people that could conceivably call him Jiang Wangyin to his face are Jin Zixuan and Lan Wangji.....that’s it. I guess, Jin Zixun too. Lan Xichen is too polite, Jin Guangyao is too scheming, and Nie Mingjue doesn’t know Jiang Cheng well enough. NMJ probably would use Jiang Wanyin if he doesn’t default to Jiang-zongzhu like Lan Xichen. If Wen Qing became friends with Jiang Cheng, I can certainly see her calling him Jiang Wanyin. That would be within her character trait. (And she does, in my fics ;) )

Finally, some notes about names in Chinese in general. In modern context, friends use each other’s name all the time. Classmates would definitely have no hesitation using each other’s name. This is true in the historical context too: so during their time at Cloud Recesses, Lan Wangji, Nie Huaisang, and Jin Zixuan should’ve all called Jiang Cheng Jiang Wanyin, and I think Lan Wangji does.

The Chinese culture loves to use variations of honorifics when talking to each other. Everyone is a xiao (little, used for young adults, younger adults), a lao (old, used for older adults), a brother, a sister, an aunt, a uncle, a grandpa, or a grandma. Chinese youths do not refer to their parents’ friends as Mr. or Mrs. Name, it’s Uncle or Auntie Name.

E.g.: if my last name was Wang, and I’m a young person in my twenties. My boss at work could easily call me xiao-Wang. If I was 45 yro and male, my colleagues could easily call me lao-Wang. Notice, lao (old), is only used for older men. Older women become jie (older sister). So since I’m female, a younger colleague can call me Wang-jie.

So why don’t we see Jiang Wangyin used a lot? Well, maybe the author was just lazy, but the sad truth is Jiang Cheng doesn’t have people in his life who would call him Jiang Wanyin to his face, unless they’re angry with him.

#cql meta #cql #jiang cheng #jiang wangyin #the untamed #i did not proofread this #if there are errors im sorry i suck at typing #Anonymous #corie replies #cql reference #culture

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sleepymarmot · 4 years

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Re-liveblog: eps. 4 & 10

Here's something I've been planning to do for a while -- rereading the liveblog of The Untamed I wrote a couple of months ago and looking at my own initial reactions to Jin Guangyao's storyline with new eyes. Returning to old liveblogs is always fun, but particularly when the perspective on something changes so much by the end of the story!

Of course, this turned into a monstrosity with word count in thousands that sat in my drafts for about a month, and involved rewatching most of the scenes the liveblog mentioned, and some that it didn't. Please be warned: this series of posts is not meant to be a comprehensive analysis, and will jump from one point to another or highlight only the things I have changed my mind about, or haven’t talked on this blog before. It is going to include some very personal interpretations and opinions, sometimes possibly (or definitely, in the case of this very post) unpopular or negative. I am here to reflect on my own experience of watching the show almost as much as to write meta about the show itself.

[All re-liveblog posts]

[ep 4]

is this shy illegitimate son the same person who summoned WWX in the first episode, or are they two entirely unrelated bastards? I don’t think the ages match up…

Oh, so that's what I was thinking during Meng Yao's introduction scene: trying to figure out whether he was the same person as Mo Xuanyu or not. That's funny.

[negativity ahead!]

Of course, I was also admiring Xichen's elegant way of Using His Privilege For Good, but I thought that was self-explanatory enough not to put in the liveblog. It didn’t occur to me this scene could be interpreted as a sect leader openly hitting on a disadvantaged youth, or that such an interpretation would be popular, especially in a literal and positive way as opposed to a dark or subversive headcanon. So even if this is ever confirmed to be an intended message of the scene, I’d just say “I recognize the council has made a decision...” and continue to disregard it. Kind of incredible how it manages to squick me in at least five ways -- and xiayo is one of my main ships in this fandom! And not only squick -- in my eyes, sexualizing LXC’s intentions in this scene not only adds something that I don’t like, but actively detracts from the textual, surface meaning and narrative function of LXC’s actions (establishing LXC as a Model Authority Figure who masterfully manipulates the social power dynamics not for self-interest, but for justice, kindness, and peaceful conflict resolution; see also the following scene with the Wens). And from the other side, I think Meng Yao is shocked and impressed specifically because someone like LXC would do this for someone like him without an ulterior motive; I suspect that if he saw this as LXC making an excuse to touch someone attractive, he would only be turned off: a sect leader who can’t keep his hands to himself is nothing new and nothing good from the point of view of JGS’s illegitimate child.

But if this brief brushing of hands holds any in-universe significance in addition to a possible foreshadowing of this relationship’s future importance -- I think I just finally realized what it must be! This interaction is an adaptation of the following scene from the book (which, to be fair, happens when MY and LXC already know each other, not during a first meeting):

Meng Yao had been a famous joke for a certain period of time, which was why a few recognized him. Likely thinking that the son of a prostitute perhaps also carried some unclean things with him, the cultivators didn’t drink from the cups that he had presented with both hands. Instead, they put the cups to the side and even took out white handkerchiefs. As though it felt too uncomfortable, they repeatedly wiped the fingers that they’d touched the teacup with, either intentionally or not. Nie MingJue wasn’t someone mindful to such things. Wei WuXian, though, caught sight of this through the corners of his eyes. Meng Yao acted as if he didn’t see anything, his smile unfaltering as he continued to pass around tea.

As Lan XiChen accepted his cup, he looked up at him and smiled, “Thank you.”

He drank a sip of the tea immediately afterward. Only then did he continue to converse with Nie MingJue. A few cultivators began to feel uneasy as they saw the scene.

(Chapter 48)

So CQL!Meng Yao’s eyebrows twitch in pleased surprise because the sect leader not only personally approached to verbally support him, but took something directly from his hands, not even trying to avoid him or flinching at skin contact. As if it didn’t even occur to the majestic Zewu-jun to think of Meng Yao as dirty or disgusting.

I don’t know if this is an intended interpretation either, because I don’t remember anyone specifically avoiding physical contact with MY in the show, and on the contrary, there were examples of both friendly (from Huaisang) and unfriendly (from the commander) touch. But I certainly prefer it to the other interpretation, and ignoring the interaction altogether seems a bit intellectually dishonest.

[/negativity]

On another note, much is said about JGY’s performativity, but check out LXC’s! Someone’s being bullied in his classroom? Not on his watch! Time to descend from his pedestal like truth coming out of her well, Very Pointedly and at length explain how this person Has His Official And Personal Approval And Is Very Welcome Here, then take the gift from him personally instead of letting a disciple do that. Note how in the following scene, he also personally accepts the gift from Wen Qing as a peacemaking gesture. I love how LXC’s character establishing event is about defusing not one but two uncomfortable situations in a row. Of the two brothers, all social skills went to him...

I have no comment on the goodbye scene. Just sadness.

Oh wait, after rewatching the entire show and coming back to the post, I do have something to say. This episode is the only time I can say with all certainty that all of Meng Yao’s words and reactions are fully sincere. After this point in the timeline, it will never happen again. :(

It’s a shame that the gifs I’ve seen of this scene end with the iconic stopped bow, because the final shots are also great! As soon as MY turns away, his face becomes clouded again, and seconds after the Sect Leader himself held his arms and assured they were peers, he felt the need to bow and lower his eyes as some unnamed disciples walked by. And the bitter look he sends after them tells the viewer how much he is aware of falling from the dreamland where a nobleman would compliment him like three times within three minutes, back to the regular life where it is better not to be noticed at all. Meanwhile, Xichen looks him in the back like “I want it to grow strong and healthy, I want to tell my friends and neighbors about it”.

[ep 10]

Alright, when 10 minutes ago I thought “Meng Yao, sweetie, kill that clown”, this is not what I had in mind

SOMEBODY GIVE MENG YAO A HUG (after some emergency medical care) HE HAS DONE NOTHING WRONG IN HIS LIFE. Can Xichen adopt him now?

Ah, the joys of the first viewing.

At this point, I was thinking of both Lan Xichen and Nie Mingjue exclusively as of father figures for Meng Yao. For LXC I think I slowly started to notice the romantic tension later but made a complete flip to the romantic interpretation only during the "late light talks... no sign of curse on his body" conversation. For NMJ it was during the head flashback. And as much as I like these pairings, it does feel like a loss that their existence displaces the very different pseudo-family dynamic. I think a story in which NMJ, LXC, WRH and JGS are all openly presented as competing father figures would be interesting; has anyone written that?

On rewatch, I was outraged by all of the blatant manipulation that I bought completely on the first viewing. MY is very good at playing a wounded bird -- especially when he's literally wounded. I had wondered why he just limped away without treating it, but now it's obvious he is using Stoic Suffering to invoke pity and admiration. Just like, a few minutes earlier, he showed NMJ that he was ready to be struck down, and it saved his life. He tells NHS with a sad but brave face “I won't be able to take care of you anymore” and on first viewing it worked on me just as he intended -- I thought “Poor boy, so trained to serve, he puts his duty to others above his own feelings even in this situation”. Ha...

And NMJ is only helping his case. He had the chance to explain everything and share the truth of MY's actions. And in the novel, he does take this chance, retelling the incident to Xichen (who chooses to turn a blind eye). Instead, NMJ basically confirms MY’s narrative: by hiding the reason for the exile, he makes it seem like there was no respectable reason at all. NMJ, all by himself, makes himself look like an irrational tyrant, and MY like a victim of an arbitrariness. And he does it in front of Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian, no less -- an heir to a major clan and his brother! By trying not to discuss internal problems with outsiders, he achieves an opposite effect. Luckily for him, JC and WWX don't give a shit... But imagine how different the plot would be if they had this information from the start?

What I still don't understand is -- what was Meng Yao’s plan in this episode? Who was he working for? Who was his accomplice, whose feet we saw in the later flasback -- surely not Xue Yang himself, he’s supposed to be under arrest! Was he working with the Jin secretly already? (I don’t think so: in a later scene, JGS asks him about this incident, seemingly ignorant.) Or with the Wen (I don't remember -- did Xue Yang go back to the Wen afterwards)? Or just with Xue Yang directly, setting him completely free just on the promise of future cooperation? This seems most plausible -- but to risk and lose everything over such an uncertain gamble doesn’t make MY look very smart.

I have some other things to say about the events of this episode, but they’ll be in the post about the flashbacks in episode 41.

#the untamed #jin guangyao #lan xichen #nie mingjue #blah blah blah #jgyreliveblog #starting with a risky one likely to alienate most of potential readers

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