Howdy I was that first ask (sorry I'd rather stay anon, bad xmen fandom experiences taught me to keep my opinions to myself or people will go after you personally). I'm only answering now cuz it doesn't look like we got the same timezones : I found your blog after looking up Margali related stuff (I needed this) and saw the reblog with the tag about "messy timeline". I like putting together timeline charts for my favs so I pulled out my Nightcrawler related one (slightly messy from following Si Spurrier's runs) and decided to give a shot to X-Men Blue. Big mistake. I should have listened to you. My 10 years in the making timeline chart is now only good for the dumpster and I'm done with Si.

I sent my ask to you because everyone is very hush hush about these kinds of complains and I just wanted you to know you weren't alone.

Okay so, I don't hate the Golden Child on her own, it's... How she came to be was unnecessary weird (genetically Kurt is as much her grandpa as he is her dad, wtf). What a weird road to go down instead of having her be like Cardinal. You know the chimera engineered from Nightcrawler's DNA +2 mutants that's straight up Azazel with red hair and eyes ? From PoX ? (Not sure if the editors remember him at all)

Funny stuff about Azazel btw, the demon thing was a retcon on his mutant status done after Austen left (he's back to being a mutant since 2019), Azazel keeps close contact with other Winding Way witches than Margali and Nightcrawler's ectrodactyly might have come from him too because he has been shown in a few comics (when doing his behind the scenes scheming with no one else around) to have that at least for his hands and uses his shapeshifting to hide it... For reasons.

I personally never cared about the Baron because he was a nothing character ? Man didn't even have a first name or canon appearance until TAS and his lastname's a plothole. This gets to the point where having him and Azazel turn out to be the same person, like a secret identity to the latter dude, would actually be an improvement and funny idea.

You're right, that "beloved darling child" is a straight up joke when looking at Mystique and Destiny's actions : They adopted and raised Rogue in 616 since she was a CHILD, raised both her and Kurt together in the "Children in the attic" what-if (Scott Lobdell but Mystique didnt throw Nightcrawler into a waterfall to save herself. Still calls Rogue the child she "always wanted" even then) and straight up let Nightcrawler die saving Hope when they were ready to sacrifice her as a baby to save Rogue (Kurt's death was avoidable and Mystique didn't know he'd be back to life like ever).

Mystique also raised Nightcrawler from birth in Age of Apocalypse where everything is Hell and he gets killed (Apocalypse attacks long after he was born so it's the same chain of events until that) and kept close contact and looked after Destiny's many human children, mutant grandchildren and grand-grandchildren throughout the years in 616... To the point of killing Graydon Creed, her biological son which she kept close watch on until his teens, to protect them. Kurt turns out to have been neglected more by her than Graydon at this point following this one shot.

The change made here on the "definite origin story" complicates and contradict stuff for no reason. It also adds another layer of unanswered questions which goes against the point of a definite story

"Why would Mystique and Destiny plan on having this kid, finally have him then straight up abandon him because of a 'sudden vision' when one of them is a precog who checks the future 24/7 to be sure everything goes perfectly fine but apparently kept things going when she saw 0 futures with that baby in it post due-date and never even once wrote about said baby in her future diaries for Mystique to do stuff for him in the future when she was gone (contrary to Rogue the child they adopted) ?" Si Spurrier doesn't care to think about important elements like that and just keeping throwing stuff on a wall to see what sticks

"Why didn't they rescue Nightcrawler before Xavier at any point and recruit him/secretly raise him with Rogue ?" Nightcrawler's first appearance was him literally running away from a mob (canonically not his first) before being saved by Xavier, one of the 3 people Mystique and Destiny were going to assassinate in their first appearance (Days of Future Past) which directly led to Nightcrawler being one of the first (avoidable) mutant casualties of that timeline. So even without years of baggage, these two didn't care about Kurt within their first X-Men issue with him. But sure the answer to this is probably the future vision excuse again I bet...

Well tell that to Margali Szardos, the circus fortune teller who managed to properly raise Kurt and protect him with half the power, wealth, means, knowledge and people. Oh wait we can't cuz she ded (Weird coincidence that the same writer behind this story which tries to make Mystique and Destiny look like the best moms for Nightcrawler turned Kurt's actual good mom into the complete opposite of who she was then unceremoniously killed her...)

Mystique has also spent her time using her knowledge of his origins as way to get him to do stuff for her then lied about them over and over again (this story makes it the third time she lied). Something she never hesitated or regretted doing

Then you have... Krakoa. So much to say. Most recent example ? Mystique and Destiny abandoned Kurt (for the 2nd time now) in the Sins of Sinister timeline when they left the island before he got switched with his sinister clone and Margali did her full corruption thing. They straight up ignored him when he grew horns in present time from beginning to end. He gets mind-controlled, murders people and has to leave to an Orchis filled Earth without keeping in touch with anyone, no reaction whatsoever from them

This reveal just turned Mystique and Destiny from bad to god awful parents in general (it looks like they never cared because they never raised him themselves) and yet the story pretends otherwise

One, before I get into anything, BIIIG ask. I've never had an ask that big. Two, Before I get into anything, Cardinal my beloved, my son, my beautiful beautiful boy, he and god baby should both be canon and like. weird universeally/timeline displaces siblings. A thing about Cardinal that I personally think is an interesting concept is how, being part Rachel (so a descendant of Jean) would make him probably be on the Phoenixes list of favourite hosts, which I think could be interesting with his anti-violence genes (<- whatever the fuck that was). Also they should remember him, since they made Rasputin 4 canon (I have my complaints about her genetic make up too, considering shes part. illyana and piotr.) Again, long thoughts under the read more

Yeah, again I completely agree on the neglect paart. The reveal managed to make Destiny and Mystique even more horrible parents, but it's trying to paint them as loving their son, which, is kinda nonsensical with past context. As I said, this retcon at this point in time is bad for the characters BECAUSE of the years of plot from the past. From mystique caring for other children to how they both act towards Kurt throughout things like Krakoa, it doesnt really add up. Plus, what would be the reason for them to not tell him sooner? Did destiny specifically see Kurt get a sick ass magic sword and go "this is incredibly important to the timeline" and thats why they stayed quiet? Having them make destiny and raven be heartbroken about the baby having to go and having the description literally be like "neither of us ever had any kids because of love until we decited to have you" It's a whiplash that could technically work if built up right, but this wasn't built up. Because I do think this could've worked with better set up, but its too late for that.

And yeah no, there have been what-ifs of mystique "successfully" raising Kurt, so it just makes the vision a weirdly cruel plotpoint. Plus that means Destiny is now canonically at fault for all that happened to Kurt, because she knew and actively set it in motion through this retcon. Which. is a wild thing to accidentally do.

Though I do like the moment where Mystique is like "I wished for a daughter", that feels fitting to her and kurts relationship.

Also this does make Kurt doing his "make 'em talk by letting them freefall under the threat of letting them splat" to Destiny funnier. You go boy, threaten matricide!

And man, yeah, Margali wasn't a perfect mom, but we have many scenes of her being a good mom or at least trying to be (specifically for kurt). Shout out to her calling Kurt her specialest boy that one time, she loved her baby. We need a Margali comic about her and her powers honestly, she's canonically one of the strongest sorcerers ever, bound by the moody nature of a living dimension, it would be so interesting to see how the way actually effects her and if she's like, bound to certain actions by the way, lest it destroys her or something. She is the sorcerer supreme of it iirc so there is a very specific connection here, especially since the wandering way is alive. With Kurt having the magic sword now too, it would be interesting for margali to come back (cause lets be real, she isnt gonna stay dead (<- threat. by me. at the comics.) and maybe teach him magic or how to work with magic. Let them actually work out the cracks in their relationship, show that they both do love eachother, but time and everything that has come up just kept tearing at them and margalis laissez-faire nature and following of the winding way didnt really help.

also man, krakoa was a good fun idea, i hate that they killed her, you couldve done alot of good with krakoa, the writers were just on their "uuuuh. shit we cant have mutants be happy" path again

pssst can i please ask you to spoiler the raven baby reveal to me...?

So the summary of X-Men Blue: Origins (2023) Mystique is wandering around New York acting crazy and mumbling about her lost baby, Kurt catches up with her and tries to talk her into calming down.

Kurt gives Raven his sword which breaks the mental barriers and it's revealed that while Raven was married to Baron Wagner, she and Irene were an on again, off again, couple who would hook up with other people whenever it helped their goals.

Raven had hired Irene to be the housemaid so she could stay close while Raven was married to Wagner, using his money/influence as they wanted and having a torrid love affair with Irene in private. Azazel shows up and Irene encouraged Raven to have an affair with him as well, because she had visions of the future.

Basically Irene wanted a love child with Raven, but needed Azazel to believe he was the father because she knew that unless Kurt was set on a path to be his constant foe/destroyer of his plans then Azazel would rise to power.

Irene's visions aren't something she can stop and she lives her life according to how to bring about her visions but she doesn't tell Raven any of this until 5 years after Kurt's birth. So she and Raven have a child, Kurt, and from my understanding of the reading, Mystique can copy the genes down to a molecular level and took the gene patterns from Azazel and Baron Wagner and impregnated Irene. So Kurt doesn't have 2 parents, he has 4, well 5 including Margali Szardos who was his adopted mom. Kurt is now battling for the #1 spot for "most parents and most confusing parental origin in comics" and he's up against the Maximoff twins who have gone through 3 sets of parents.

Back to the story, Raven dumps Azazel who is such a pathetic loser, I love that lol. Raven fakes being pregnant by shapeshifting to look like she is pregnant as the months go by. Baron Wagner discovers his wife's affairs, and being the homophobe he is, is stabbed by Raven who then spends the next few months switching between forms to make people believe that the Baron and his wife are both still around, waiting until Irene gives birth. I'm guessing because Raven intended to use the Baron's money/pretending to be him so she and Irene could live in comfort or until they wanted to move on.

Irene is the one who gives birth to Kurt, and Raven overcome with joy/love for Kurt doesn't want his first sight of her to be human so she reveals herself.

The townspeople are of course in an uproar, want to kill the demon woman and her demon child, Irene tells Raven to get to safety and that she would be ok, but Raven fears for Irene so she leaves Kurt under a tree and rushes back to kill the people who would hurt her wife and discovers Irene is missing, she runs back to find Kurt and he's gone too.

Five years pass and she finds Irene again, this time watching a young Rogue, Irene reveals everything to Raven, the Azazel vision, Irene needed Kurt to be raised as an outcast etc. Raven and Irene both know they are in a toxic relationship, but they love each other too much so they went to the one man who can make everything worse, Charles Xavier. Of course Xavier does what he does best, erases people's memories and implants new ones.

So now Kurt has 2 deadbeat mutant moms, 1 deadbeat demonic mutant father, 1 dead human father, and 1 adopted mother and they all give him the most drama & trauma that you will ever see in comics! Love wins (?)

I am currently taking donations to hire Kurt a therapist (who isn't Professor X), save an elf's sanity and donate /jk

I will say that this origin, though very messy, does at least confirm that Irene is just as messy/toxic as Raven, so I hope they continue to be totally bad for each other and 100% in love, which is very refreshing to see in wlw couples and I really hope they do not try to soften their edges, especially Raven's, I do not want a "good mother Raven", but time will tell. Also finally Kurt is Baron Wagner's son technically due to partially copied genetics so it finally makes sense for why Kurt has the Wagner last name, which is something that always bugged me, because imo if he had zero connection to the Baron then he wouldn't have the Wagner last name. Also this doesn't invalidate the Azazel retcon from before because again technically Azazel believes Kurt is his son, and Kurt does have partially copied genetics from Azazel.

I think it was a really tough balancing act to have to write, I wish it could have been written a bit better or the thoughts of Rogue actually being Irene/Raven's daughter would have worked better. Like imagine if Raven and Irene were both pregnant, Irene had Rogue and Raven had Nightcrawler or Irene had them both as twins, then they wouldn't just be foster/adopted siblings but also bio siblings, and it could have opened up the door for more stories involving them as brother and sister trying to deal with their mothers. Marvel constantly ignores the potential for Rogue and Kurt's sibling dynamic and I wish we got more of it in the comics. I get that the writer was trying to keep to the old canon while creating the new canon and using the original plan for Kurt's parentage, so while I feel it's way too complicated this is also comics where complicated plots and retcons have been a long standing tradition meant to torment us readers.

seems like there's a lot of people like that anon who genuinely do not know the destiny and mystique parentage was not only NOT the original parentage for nightcrawler but that was scrapped so early on, we got a decade of stories with claremont that couldn't have made it a thing without completely retconning what he effin wrote. i think what didn't help this were fans who spent two entire decades falsely repeating it so many time like it was a mantra that it got seared into the minds of folks who don't even read xmen (no joke)

i used to be a big fan of a blogger called nathan summers on world press. technically i still am but dude dropped off the map years ago... maybe comics finally broke his heart. he was an old claremont fan at heart and even he knew that parentage wasn't the original one (he also highlighted that the writer who first mentioned it being the original plan wasn't even claremont, it was lobdell). he even gave evidence that claremont might have started thinking about it years after he wrote dofp, after he introduced rogue as being raised by mystique and destiny, after he introduced margali, after he clearly gave mystique a power limit, after he came up with nightcrawler's backstory with the szardos, ... like claremont would be retconning himself with that one parentage. it was thanks to NS that i found out about the nightmare parentage being a thing and his evidence for why it was the first and really original one was editorial interviews at the time (you can still find that trivia fact with a reference on wikipedia pages of nightmare too) and traces of the scraped idea in issues that did come out

it never hit me back then how super weird it was for nightcrawler's backstory from present day to when he was baby to be all revealed in a crossover book with doctor strange. it never registered with me how out of place that was to reveal it here and not in a normal xmen book or story (as opposed to magneto, rogue, madelyne pryor, storm, cyclops, ...). so when NS talked about the nightmare parentage, it all just clicked in my head. the way nightcrawler's inferno went down must have been how that scrapped idea would have went "according to plan" before it was shot down by editorial up until margali was revealed (instead)

then there was another proof NS gave that sealed the deal for me for how the mystique and destiny parentage really wasn't the original idea at all and it was in the same book claremont started giving nightcrawler's backstory

if nightmare was originally the father in the scrapped concept, nightcrawler's biological mother was canonically a poor gal that was just dead because that very crossover literally had her dying right next to him when margali found them. this also answers the age old question of "why is nightcrawler's last name wagner if he was raised by the szardos family who never met his parents?" : it's because margali took him under her care FROM his biological mother as she was dying right before her eyes and said mother probably told her the first name she wanted him to have and his full name to legitimize his parentage

I know but I really just have to stamp it down that it wasn't the original idea because that isn't how chronology works lol, its not even hard to find this information online I found it years ago when I first became a Nightcrawler fan. I don't get why people think Destiny/Mystique was the first idea or some are so invested in that narrative that they just bend over backwards to make excuses of how "well Nightmare was thought of first but um well you see um it was scrapped so early on it can't be the first idea" like what are you talking about? You just admitted it was the first idea.

I don't blame Nathan Summers for dipping out, around the 2010s Comics started an even worse decline as the events became more frequent and storytelling took a backseat. But yeah even on his blog there's some details about Mystique such as making her in her 30s which means at one point Mystique was intended to be closer to Nightcrawler's age which would have made her unable to be his mother. And as you said they originally stated his mother died besides him hence how he had the name Wagner instead of Szardos.

I used to think Mystique was always intended to be his mother but even that is wrong because apparently Cockrum never stated Nightcrawler's mother was Mystique in his pitch to Legion of Superheroes. So yeah Nightmare was originally the only major character that was going to be Nightcrawler's father, his original intended parent was going to be a Demon and he was going to have inherited his mutant side from his deceased mother. That demonic parentage angle for Nightcrawler that these fans hate so much was the first idea for his father by Claremont.

I always feel so frustrated with how unimaginative Marvel is with Remy, the only interesting things he's had is New Sun and X-Factor. Idk if this is true, but I read there was some rumor that Remy was gonna be an alter ego of Sinister, which would've given the writers more to work with imo. I think why some writers like Rogue and Erik more since they're much easier to work with outside of shipping. Same with Kurt, whom I sometimes think Remy is a pale imitation of (Catholic, martial artist, looks demonic, ladies man, even his powers suit a thief more than Remy's). If Kurt and Rogue weren't siblings, I'd sooner ship Rogue with him than Remy. Also, since Remy can only charge non-living things, it just makes him look weak and limited compared to other characters. I don't say all this shit to be mean, but I do get frustrated with how little material he's given, and can understand why his character is constantly put on the back burner in various media compared to other X-Men characters.

Yeah I remember reading somewhere they'd thought about doing something like that with Remy and Sinister and I think instead went with New Sun? Something like that. Also considered having him be ANOTHER Secret Summers Brother and I'm glad we didn't go this route lol we need to stop the Summers-Grey family tree from taking over the whole X-verse while we can.

I'll say that I don't feel that Remy is a pale imitation of Kurt mainly because I feel Remy deals with a lotta things that Kurt really doesn't on a personal level (true parental abandonment like no margali in SIGHT kinda shit, street life, crime, child soldier gangland shit, the greys and blacks of morality etc). You see more of those things in his solos which can even get a bit of a noir vibe to them which is nice but people just rarely wanna put in the time and effort with Remy. They rarely get him so they knock him down into say, the TAS 90s Gambit mold and call it a day. Which is just ....... no one wants that. Not Gambit Haters, not Gambit Stans.

And I get what you're saying about his powers but I think if he could charge living matter constantly like he can as New Sun homie would be so comically OP. I think the real issue here is just again, fuckers don't know how to write him so they go for whatever's easiest. So it's all lame, dumb and boring. If they let him get funky with his powers a bit more it'd could be super cool.

The pro of Rogue and Magneto when made scene partners is that they do have much more solid pre-existing characterizations, vibes and "story packs". As a writer you can walk in and already there's a couple of things you can do which are kinda like Rogue or Magneto Classics. Remy not so much so he ends up being like, Rogue's loser sidekick which sucks.

I feel you tho on the shitshow that is comic Rogue-Kurt dynamics. I too can see the appeal and charm of them as a romantic ship just as much as I can see them working wonderfully as a sibling pair. My beef around them has been for years that we get this Big Reveal that Mystique is Kurt's Bio-Mom but after he has his initial freak out for a couple issues in Excalibur or Uncanny or w/e he was in at the time I forget I just remember Amanda is there this whole thing-- IT NEVER REALLY COMES UP AGAIN BETWEEN HIM AND ROGUE AND THEY JUST ACT LIKE NORMAL AND OCCASIONALLY MENTION THEY'RE SORT-OF RELATED IN A WAY THAT'S MORE OF A REMINDER TO THE AUDIENCE????? LIKE IT'S FUN TRIVIA INSTEAD OF A PLOT POINT OR IMPORTANT RELATIONSHIP????

their first serious non-combat interaction was basically Kurt telling her to drop dead when she comes to Xavier for help when she's 17 and he's 21. He finally cuts her some slack after she ALMOST DIES IN A SUICIDE BY VILLAIN ATTEMPT to save Wolverine's fiance which makes Wolverine go "yeah okay fine your not total dogshit ig" so NOW Kurt'll stop being a raging asshole to the mentally ill teen lol (I'm shit talking Kurt rn but this is genuinely part of why I love him). Then there's MAYBE a couple of scenes that are outside of Action Stuff before the X-Men "die" in the late 80s and we get Excalibur where the two of them interact, the biggest of them is him FLIRTING WITH HER.

Uncanny X-Men (1963) #192

Now-- it's Kurt so this isn't anything really all that crazy. He jokingly flirts with like 90% of the X-Men. It's just the kinda silly funny quirky guy he is. But when I'm trying to think of say, Rogue-Kurt moments POST the Mystique Reveal that really feel like People Connecting or them Actually Being Siblings I draw a blank. This flirting scene is more iconic and stand out than basically all of their 00s and on interactions because it feels like a natural and very emotional conflict they WOULD have. He goofs around like he always does, her feelings get hurt, he realizes what he's done and feels like an ass and wants to fix it. EMOTIONS HAPPENED HERE, CHARACTERIZATION AND CONFLICTED OCCURRED. THIS CONFLICT AND LATER RECONCILIATION WILL LEAD TO A BETTER FRIENDSHIP AS WE GO! THANKS CLAREMONT!

Even at her wedding he's basically just like "well I AM her brother (remember? did you see that watchmojo listicle? have you read my wiki recently) and I AM blue so I should ALSO be in the wedding."

There's really not a lot of content of them like, hanging out, post 2004 or so. Some of that is just them being in different books but a lot of it just no one putting in the time or effort. X-Treme X-Men (2001) was all about Rogue looking into shit related to Destiny's writings and grappling with some Family and Personal Grief at the start there. Kurt shoulda been around for at least the first arc. Not thunderbird that absolutely nothing of a dude. It was the perfect setting to work on this issue that the 6 degrees of Mystique™ has made. One of the only other encounters between them I can think of that's post-90s is this:

Rogue (2001) #4

And this interaction is set like VERY SOON after she joined the X-Men!!!! So it's not even a truly modern scene of them just vibing!!!!

To me, they're NOT siblings. Not in the way Kurt is with Amanda who's his ACTUAL adoptive sister or even in the way that Rogue is with Bobby, Sam or Scott who she just has Massive Broship Energies with and it's entirely because their 6 Degrees of Mystique™ is tenuous at best for how much it would really matter to them. Kurt HAS a family! He HAS siblings! Mystique abandoned/lost him and never looked for him or intended to tell him about their connection until forced to. He was raised by Margali and sees HER FAMILY as HIS family and they think the same! Like that's a standard ass adoptive family vibe.

Rogue is found by Mystique and Irene and raised by them in near isolation ON ANOTHER CONTINENT and is never informed about Kurt even in a past "i had a baby and lost him" tense kinda way or Graydon either. To her knowledge growing up she HAS NO SIBLINGS OF ANY KIND. She meets and fights against and then beside Kurt with no idea there's literally anything connecting them but that they're both mutants and x-men for like, YEARS even IN canon. Their whole relationship is rocky as shit for a WHILE there and then she gets YEETED SECRETLY TO AUSTRALIA AND HE THINKS SHE DIED. And let's be clear-- sure he's upset about her "death" too but he is MUCH more upset over the "deaths" of Logan, Ororo and Peter who he ACTUALLY NAMES WHILE TALKING ABOUT THIS GRIEF. Because you know... THESE RELATIONSHIPS ACTUALLY HAD FUCKING SCREENTIME.

Excalibur (1988) #1

He's not a monster, he does give a shit about her, but realistically over the years VERY little time has been put into building ANY relationship between Rogue and Kurt of ANY kind and it's frustrating when they really wanna act like they've got one. They don't. And it pisses me off because realistically Rogue/Kurt is less fucked up than Amanda/Kurt and guess which one is canon. Because of the 6 Degrees of Mystique™ people don't really ship them even tho there's an even more Yikes Kurt ship that's canon and Does Not Seem To Fucking Die, there's been no real development of ANY kind of relationship between him and Rogue, they've lived their ENTIRE lives not knowing each other or not really being more than coworkers and Kurt has NO INTEREST in truly claiming Mystique as his mother which is valid-- she fucking sucks.

I think Rogue/Kurt has legs and it's aggravating to me because I also really like Rogue & Kurt siblingship! I grew up watching Evolution! The sibling vibes and friendship that grow naturally up between them even BEFORE the Mystique Reveal in that show are just CHEF'S KISS. But in comics they IMPLY a familial connection that really.... doesn't mean much... and then they don't show these two deciding it to make it mean something or organically falling into a good sibling relationship... so they cut off the dynamic at the knees. You'll be shit on if you try to go off script and explore a more romantic angle because "ew they're rElAtEd" (ignoring all the previously stated flaws in that argument), there's nothing in canon that helps you figure out how friendly they even truly are so good luck building something canon compliant and they just generally don't seem to even give a shit about this dynamic at all so without dipping into other adaptations/AUs it can be hard to find something to even SAY about them.

Like I'd love to see Rogue and Kurt engage like, finding out what the Mystique Reveal means to them and how they see each other. I'd love to see them becoming friends and then family. I'd love to see them making that CHOICE. Because really in this context it's a CHOICE. She's not his adoptive sister, Amanda is. She's not his bio sister either in 616, that idea got shot down early on. She's a girl his bio mom who is a stranger to him raised an ocean away while he was raised in a loving home with siblings he adores. They met when she was a villain, he vehemently disliked her until she almost died saving someone's life then he tried to at least be civil and friendly. He finds out Mystique is his bio mother and asks Rogue about her but at the end of the day feels no real connection to Mystique or her life. His mother is Margali. The circus was his family. He cares about Mystique, Irene and Rogue because he's a decent human being but like, not in the same amount or extent as his adoptive family.

You can't have a scene of him flirting, even jokingly, with her in the 80s then think a 1993 mom reveal some how totally erases that vibe. Especially when you then put like no effort into exploring that GOLDMINE OF A PLOT THREAD. They've got so few non-combat just hanging out and engaging in character development interactions in 616 canon I can count them on my hands. At this point you could spin a wheel and decide to give them any relationship dynamic and it could genuinely work because there's no real content of them in comics to use contest it.

Like at her wedding they bring up that he's her brother again. That shouldn't be something we have a "turn to the camera and remind the audience" moment about. That should be as "well duh" to me as Bobby being her best man or Scott and Alex being brothers. It's not. It's just not. Their connection is just a factoid at this point and I hate it. You can't close off all these other potential dynamics for them (romantic/enemies/rivals/shitty roommates/etc whatever) by making them connected via Mystique, having an line every like, 10 years that reminds us they're "siblings" (are they tho? are they really? is that how this works?) and kinda vaguely imply they don't hate each other which is really just riding on the fact that pretty much ALL the X-Men like Kurt and we the audience like both of them and then GIVE US NOTHING WITH THAT STATED DYNAMIC!

MORE TIME AND EFFORT WAS PUT INTO MAKING NATE GREY SEE MADYLENE PRYOR AS HIS MOTHER OVER JEAN THAN HAS EVER BEEN PUT INTO MAKING ROGUE AND KURT FEEL LIKE THEY'RE EVEN FRIENDS LET ALONE SIBLINGS AND I'M VERY MAD ABOUT IT!!!! EITHER GIVE ME WHAT I WANT OR CUT THE REINS AT LET ME DO WHATEVER!!!

fsdkjghksdl so i just get VERY heated about this it's a pet peeve of mine.

I've been wanting to react to the new!Nightcrawler!origins! buuut instead I fell asleep every night. anyway I haven't gotten to read it so I'm going by summaries.

Overall impression: Way too convoluted. Even though Mystique/Irene parentage was what I wanted as well, they lit had to tie canon into pretzels to get there. But what does X-men canon even mean anymore? Well, that's the other half of my impression: Why even bother, since someone can sweep in ten or twenty years from now and undo all of this the same way they just undid The Draco? lol

Not that I'm not dancing on the moon because The Draco is gone. That is vindictive dancing though. I don't like that one of Kurt's few biggish storylines is kaput now... except also kinda not??? like i said convoluted. And that has a ripple effect on nearly every other storyline he's had since The Draco too, because so many of them have been linked to Azazel/the afterlife. You can worm about to keep the parts of them you like, sure, if things are already this messy then why not let them be even messier!

But what motivation is there for a reader of X-books to care. X-books are so short-sighted these days that nothing means anything anymore. Things I wanted to see happen so, so badly when I was in high school could happen now and would have like a tenth of the impact, because everything is just forgotten/erased when the writing staff changes and the new staff isn't interested what the previous guys did.

Back to the origins themselves. There should be some appreciation for the inclusion of so much pro-gender fluidity. On the other hand, it's Mystique, lol. I'm not sure how to feel. Mystique has been many things over the years, and since much of it has been a messed up psychopathic sex idol, it's been nice to see them giving her a lot more nuance a la Claremont. OTOH, this is all just because of Jennifer Lawrence isn't -__-; That Mystique is the most boring incarnation of her ever. I really don't want to see Mystique that way in the comics. She needs to tread the line that never comes too close to angels. But that does make it tough for her to represent a marginalized community... since she's also a serial killer, I mean.

Irene's part is fine. I don't really have complaints except it's again just so involved.

The Azazel bit is incomprehensible. Whut.

And last, this is very much just my personal feelings... but I just don't think Nightcrawler should be this Shining Light Hero. He's always been my favorite X-man, and yes, I always wanted better storylines for him. But IMO it is always stupid to parade before a character with drums and trumpets, shouting "He's the good one! It was prophesied!" I was already side-eyeing the Hope Sword REALLY HARD and now you tell me Irene manipulated things so Kurt would be raised by Margali instead of Mystique? AND this was SO important that they even got Xavier to wipe their minds AND HIS OWN so none of them would remember what Nightcrawler really is? Whyyyy???

I know every time they change something people complain so. What can you do. To me Nightcrawler will always be the best supporting character with main character energy. ALL the X-men are both supporting cast and main cast at the same time. There should never be one front and center X-man who hogs all the limelight *cough* and is Teh Special One *cough cough* because it's X-MEN not "Wolverine and the X-men" *WHEEZING COUGHING UP A HAIRBALL*

The summaries seem to suggest - though I'm not completely sure - that Irene... wanted Nightcrawler to suffer? So he'd learn compassion, I guess??? As if being a blue, demonic-looking monster from birth didn't already guarantee that... I'm hoping either I or the summary I read misunderstood that bit bc it really makes no sense to me. But her leaving him with Margali to protect him from suffering doesn't make sense either, all things considered... I can only assume Irene was thinking about Kurt Darkholme, who was raised by Mystique, or maybe that one What-If where Mystique kept him upstairs and wouldn't let him interact with the outside world at all, and he ends up fusing with Rogue...

It's hard because I WANT to like this retcon, but I'm so damn wary of what they're going to do with it! It's just as scary that they might actually go through with whatever they're planning for Crawler as it is that they might NOT, since they almost never make good on anything they promise... Like what the fuck is up with his missing soul is that whole storyline still a thing or not!?!?

But I'll end on a positive note: At least he's not lusting after Stacy X, encouraging mutant strippers to morph into female friends, or any of the other lad fuckery Austen tortured us with. Also bye bye Draco, yay.

If you could develop your own canon storyline with Kurt, what would it be and why? How would you want it to affect the character going forward in terms of his legacy in Marvel Comics?

And also: GIVE US YOUR BAMF HEADCANONS.

For Munday, anonymously ask the mun something you want to know about them, their portrayal, or what they will/won’t write. | accepting

::ooc:: I don't think I'd change it drastically, mostly his past; probably the circus background cause I've always found it confusing. I need to sit and think of a proper timeline cause you know how Marble is with those and all these countless retcons.

I'd write him pagan, Margali is a witch and she wouldn't hide it from her family, in my head that makes no sense. He certainly would have a little knowledge ( not as much as Margali and Jimaine though ) and obviously, Jimaine is just a sister. I believe she'd try to kick his ass along with Margali after finding out he killed Stefan.

And Stefan's death? He didn't unintentionally kill him (to align it with my main/default verse); it was completely on purpose and that's something that always torments Kurt no matter how justified it is.

Kurt becomes catholic in his late teens and that's thanks to father Wagner (I have a lot to explain about this part of his life tbh) and that's how he adopts that last name. He was previously Kurt Szardos.

Aaaand... I'm going to stop right here cause I'd write pages of what I'd like to do, I've put a a lot of thought over this for decades.

Most of the things I'd change would be to make more sense, I don't really dislike any of Kurt's background besides The Draco and that's mostly because of what Chuck Austen did however... These things are part of him, even his death so, i'd probably just re-write here and there to make it more cohesive and I'd obviously add Raven and Irene.

I've always considered him the underdog despite being a well known loved character and honestly? I like that for him so, I would and want to keep his legacy. He represents something important that other mutants won't and will never because of his physical appeareance.

Now, regading the Bamfs, I do have a few headcanons, I'm linking them here :) [1] & [2] and, I don't mention this often but I have it in my muse page, Kurt is sans bamfs in my main/default verse and I'll aways write him lbamfless unless they're requested so, if someone replies to me and adds/mention the bamfs I'd go along with the flow but I think it's important to mention this, to clear things up cause I'd love for my verses to be acknowledged by my rp partners.

You once got an ask about Margali Szardos in here, right? There's a cover variant of Legion of X 9 that has her on it so she might be coming in nightcrawler's solo... Tho last time I checked she was, like, super dead and I haven't seen her get resurrected at any point? (not even through the mutant's process which I don't think would even work for her since they don't have her mind file or even DNA) so that's another retcon to add to the list.

Aww look at her! This is a seriously awesome cover, thank you for telling me that this even exists! While I don't pay attention to them very much, variant covers are always super cool, even if the comic they're covering doesn't reference what's actually happening xD

I don't really want to theorize too much because I don't know a lot about Szardos' character in modern comics... but it would be cool to see her come back and help the Krakoans with a magical fix. Or at least see Kurt. He could use some family support😭

Post #17: UXM Annual issue 4 and UXM issues 139-140

Before I get into this annual, which I do really like, I have two things to note. The first is that as soon as I started reading, I realized I forgot to mention the guest artist on the last annual, George Pérez. Pérez is one of my favorite comics creators ever, mainly for his Teen Titans run, which was at this time about to start. He also tragically passed earlier this year. The artist for this annual is John Romita Jr., my favorite Spider-Man artist, who'll come back to Uncanny in a few years. The second is it's placement in the series; I cannot for the life of me understand why they chose to set this between issues 138 and 139. Losing Jean, Ororo replacing Scott, and Warren and Kitty joining are all things that need to be addressed in the main series, so here they're either brushed over or ignored. There's no continuity errors, it's just kinda jarring thematically. I feel like it would have been really easy to throw Warren in and say it takes place later, but what do I know. Anyway, on to the story- it's Kurt's birthday. This is the first issue without Scott, who's been the lead character for the entire history of the X-Men, and the big question on the reader's mind is who will step into the spotlight, but Claremont dodges the question by writing a Kurt-centric story that Kurt's barely in. His friends throw him a surprise party, which starts out great but quickly goes horribly wrong when he opens an unmarked package that explodes is his face and kills him. Before the shock can really set in, Xavier has called his friend Dr. Strange, who's spells reveal that Kurt's soul has been stolen, but it can be restored. (He also discovers that Kurt is completely human, not a demon, so suck it Azazel.) Suddenly the culprit, a witch named Margali, appears and sucks Ororo, Peter, Logan, and Strange through a portal. They wake up at what appears to be the gates of Hell as described by Dante, with Kurt alive and with them. They enter, hoping to find answers, and are greeted by Minos, who casts Kurt into the pit of Hell. Ororo saves him, but is herself stabbed by a harpy, sending her into the pit. Our heroes set out on the path of Dante to find where she's being imprisoned, and we get some brief insights into their religious beliefs, one of my favorite topics in the series. When Logan sees the pit of the wrathful, he thinks about how he could be condemned there someday. But he's unafraid and unashamed of who he is. Logan will over the course of his life make friends and enemies of countless gods, and occasionally be one himself, but I don't think he ever puts any thought into religion. Logan is a true realist; he lives in the present always, focused on what he can do, and doesn't really care about any afterlives that may await him in the far future. Peter was raised atheist, and doesn't want to believe in any god that would condone the existence of such a Hell. And Kurt is, of course, a Catholic, which is only briefly mentioned here, but will become important to his character later. He also reveals to his friends what he did to incur Margali's wrath- he killed her son, and does not regret it. The heroes fund Ororo in the eighth circle among the thieves, transformed into a snake. They free her and restore her to her body before venturing down into the final circle, where they find not Satan but Margali and her daughter, Jimaine, who unsuccessfully pleads for Kurt's life. Kurt yields to Margali, ready to accept the punishment that he feels he deserves, but Strange uses the Eye of Agamotto to reveal the truth. Margali took Kurt in as an infant and raised him alongside her children, Stefan and Jimaine. Stefan made Kurt promise to kill him if he ever succumbed to his rage and killed an innocent, and Kurt agreed, never imagining that it would happen. But it did, years later, and though Kurt tried to peacefully stop him, he accidentally snapped his neck. Margali and Jimaine both disappeared, and Kurt has been living with the guilt ever since. Margali forgives Kurt and frees him, before Jimaine reveals that she's actually been Amanda Sefton, Kurt's girlfriend, all along. This relationship is really weird and incesty. Later Kurt's relationship with Margali will be softly retconned into more of a foster mother situation where  Kurt was kinda raised by the community, but after a long flashback about Kurt and Stefan calling each other blood brothers, it's really creepy and uncomfortable to see him kiss Stefan's sister. Moving past that, there's one more sweet moment when Logan sees Kitty, who's still feeling out of place with the X-Men, standing alone, and invites her to join the group hug. This Logan is a far cry from the loner who refused to look anyone in the eye, and his bond with Kitty is one of the best in the franchise. I think Kurt actually got the least thought bubbles of any of the leads in this issue, but that was worth it for the backstory twist at the end, which adds a whole new dimension to Kurt's character. His cheerful and outgoing extroversion isn't a false mask by any means, but it is a part of himself that he actively chooses to encourage. He has to; in this instance, and periodically throughout the next few years, when he drops that part of himself he starts drowning in Catholic guilt. But he's always able to find himself again, and in this way he's very different from Ororo and Peter; the latter two, when confronted by darkness and killing over the next few years, often crack in ways that take them years more to heal. But Kurt lets darkness in and balances it with light, which is probably the most emotionally healthy way to handle being an X-Man and makes him probably the kindest hero in the Marvel universe. He's also a fascinating foil for Logan; the main differences between the two of them are Kurt's optimism and emotional control. In broad strokes and first impressions they're at opposite ends of the pacifism spectrum, but they have very similar hearts that are tempered by very different outlooks on life.

Issue 139 is where we start to really explore the personal ramifications of the Dark Phoenix Saga. Which again is kinda jarring that they skipped over it in the annual, but it's not like grief would be over and done in one issue so it's fine that there was a buffer. Warren is on the team and struggling to readjust, and I do wish Claremont would at least mention his time leading the Champions. Building off of a brief mention in the last annual, Kitty is still scared of Kurt, and he notices, but rather than letting it get to him he just decides to keep trying to get through to her until she gets used to him. Kitty's crush on Peter is also growing, and pretty soon I'll have a lot to say about that. Ororo's taking well to her new leadership role. Her leadership is different than Scott's; whereas his goal was to turn the team into one well oiled machine, she views everyone individually and directs them as such. Scott is a great leader, but for this team specifically, Ororo is a better fit for the job. She and Peter are also both making more jokes than usual, a slightly weird coping mechanism for Jean's death. Logan, now wearing his new orange and brown costume (my favorite Wolverine costume of them all), tell Xavier he needs to go sort out his issues with Alpha Flight, and at Xavier's suggestion invites Kurt to come along. Meanwhile, Ororo takes Kitty, who's new codename is Sprite, to the dance studio of Stevie Hunter for a lesson. Kitty was already growing up fast, between skipping several grades and her parents' impending divorce, and now that she's an X-Man, she'll be growing up faster. She reminds Ororo of a younger her, and Ororo wants to help her hold on to her childhood in a way Ororo herself never could. Meanwhile, Logan and Kurt arrive at the house of James and Heather Hudson, who Logan says are the only friends he ever had before the X-Men. Kurt is also the first X-Man to learn Logan's name, when Heather calls him by it. Kurt asks why he never told them, and Logan just says they never asked. Heather directs them to where Alpha Flight is hunting the Wendigo, a monster that Logan fought on his first mission against the Hulk. Logan jumps at the chance to not only save the Wendigo's victims but also fix the only mission he's ever failed and patch things up with Jimmy. Kurt leaves him with his old teammates to get their gear, and stops to watch the sunset, which reminds him of Jean. He starts sobbing and prays to God, first in anger that He let this happen, and then to hope that Jean is at peace. The X-Men are for now grieving separately and privately, unwilling to share the pain with each other. I really like the recent focus on Kurt's religious beliefs, which add another great level to an increasingly complex character. Unfortunately, his prayer is interrupted when he turns around and sees the Wendigo.

Issue 140 starts back at the mansion, where Peter is distracting himself by doing some landscaping. Warren arrives and asks him if he misses life as a farmer, and Peter says that he does in some ways, but he can never go back after being an X-Man. He still likes farmwork though, because it reminds him how small and powerless he is in the face of nature. He would love a simple life, but he knows he'll never have one. But he's not complaining, because he has a new family and a purpose in life. Xavier and Warren discuss the X-Man, who Warren likes with the exception of Logan. He thinks he's unstable and dangerous, but Xavier believes in his potential as a person and as a hero. Meanwhile, Ororo goes to pick up Kitty from class, drenches a creep who's been harassing her, and finds herself jealous of Stevie's role in Kitty's life. Finally cutting back to the action, Kurt barely survives the Wendigo's attack before being saved by Alpha Flight. Logan and Annie, the Alpha Flight shape shifter Snowbird, go after the Wendigo, and there's a rare Logan flashback to his life with Jimmy and Heather. They found him stranded in the wilderness years ago and saved him from what appeared to be certain death. He loved them like family, but soon the Canadian secret service recruited him and turned him into their most dangerous operative. He hated being their tool and left with Xavier the first chance he got. Logan is happy to do dirty work if he believes in it, but he hates being a pawn. Now that he's accepted the X-Men as family, he's glad to take orders, but he never wanted to work for nameless suits. He stayed out of loyalty to his friends, but even that had its breaking point. Back in the present, he's caught up to Wendigo, who's about to eat his hostages. Logan releases his berserker rage on the monster, but he's able to turn it off to get the victims to safety. Being an X-Man has been good for him; instead of being pointed and shot at targets by the government, Xavier, Scott, and now Ororo tell him to point and shoot himself. He's able to control his rage now, making him even more dangerous towards his enemies and less scared of himself. The Wendigo recovers and attacks, but Annie has returned with reinforcements. Logan is saved by his old and new families working together, but the turning point is when Annie shapeshifts into a wolverine to defeat Wendigo. She's overcome by the brutal nature of the animal, but Logan is able to talk her down. He feels the same primal bloodlust she does, but he's learned to control it through the support and love of those around him, and he extends the same to Annie. Kurt and Logan have a mini philosophy discussion about the morality of Logan's violence. Logan only never goes for a kill until his enemy tries to kill him, at which point all sympathy is gone. Kurt calls this reasonable, logical, and justifiable, but not right. In his life, Logan has probably killed many people who could have been saved, and Kurt's refusal to kill may have led to the deaths of those people's later victims. The world sometimes needs Logan, but Logan also needs Kurt to keep asking him these questions.

so we state how we got there then ask our question/share an opinion...?

okay i came here because i was actively checking for tags, any tags, that mentioned Margali Szardos by name (it's a cycle : i get obsessed by this same niche character at the same period every year but it's my first try on tumblr). your blog was like a lighthouse in this ocean of indifference so here i am

now my ask is, have you read strange academy by any chance ? cuz i feel like Margali would have been a perfect fit for that universe and setting instead of Legion of X. they have every magic user from Wanda to Illyana teaching there and helping out all kinds of magical children so Margali would have been right at home with new students and colleagues. hell you could have a subplot of Margali mentoring another Winding Way user and actually give more lore on that kind of magic. they also had evil magic users from other dimensions show up as well as Dormammu. just lots of potential for fanon works and a personal favourite read of mine

now for an opinion, i hate nightcrawler's new backstory. i genuinely do. firstly because the writer acts like his origins matter way more than they actually do (Kurt is +35 rn not a young adult or teen and literally never cared about that aspect after he heard the first few versions) and secondly because this truth reads like a blatant lie and slap to the face after everything that's ever happened to him in a "he never had any free will in his life actually since this moment was gonna happen regardless of what he did since Mystique and Destiny wanted and predicted it since he was born otherwise they would have intervened". the outcome and interactions following the reveal makes me think Mystique isn't the only one here with memory issues from the way Nightcrawler acts in this situation (Krakoa's chronic brain damage i guess). i think these origins would have worked way better for Rogue (it makes perfect sense for her really) and felt less like a spit to everything Nightcrawler went through in his life and with Mystique... and now Destiny... and Azazel too because these two threw him into Kurt's life for lolz basically : Nightcrawler gave up his soul because he needed to keep Azazel out of heaven since red guy used their biological blood ties and soul properties to get there and play captain hook but now ? now you're stuck wondering how that thing even worked back then since it's still being brought up by Azazel in dark xmen now

Sir (genderneutral for the bit), this is a dennys.

I'm not a rant blog for opinions two people just saw me and agreed with my takes and that temporarily turned me into one today dsfgdfgdfg All I am is a dude who likes comics and specifically nightcrawler a Normal Human Amount (lying) But yes! I know strange academy and I actually quite like it. I still gotta get the series to read it fully but I love the concept and uh. Very funny of you to bring that up cause in the last little rant ask that I got, I noted in the tags that I think she would be an interesting teacher for the school. In general, I think margali should get a series for herself, she's super interesting with alot of lore behind her (being stronger than old comics stephen strange at one point, knowing wanda from when she was a child, possibly being a three time sorcerer supreme (earth, winding way, possibly limbo at one point), having powers that depend on a living dimension etc) Also I just want to know more about her past, she was supposetly born in france, so like, how did that effect her? did she grow up there for a while? How did she get into magic? (I am ignoring mother righteous i am ignoring mother righteous I AM IGNORING MOTHER RIGHTEO-)

I already talked about my takes on the whole. bio-parent thing in these Lovely Posts if you care for my opinion, but yeah no, its messy. Though, again there might be a. thing they did if I understood the comics wording right where Kurt is kinda the result of Raven using the Baron and Azazel as blue prints for having the kid?? So in theory, biologically he's christians, azazels, ravens and irenes kid (though raven also notes "countless others" so. infanite bioparents glitch kurt lets fucking gooo) But I might've missunderstood the panels and the idea that they made kurt just have. all the bio-parents was too much of a absolutely gorgeous idea to not take it like that.

Either way another one on the pile of "writers love pulling the stupitest shit with kurt specifically"

remember when he had a daughter in a new reality that he forcefully forgot because he didnt want to break the rules of the new reality because people loved him, and then he realized that he should care for his daughter and promised her to finally be there for her, only for that really to be deleted. that reality was like a bubble thing. that daughter was flesh and bone. they never talk about it but he lost a child he just got back. (age of x-man, 2019) I rember. I think of it alot.

So, I'm curious, who would be on your ideal Hellfire club?

Okay so I am a BIG fan of the classic 80s lineup---Sebastian, Emma, Harry, Pierce, Selene, Tessa--but I also very much love the little-knowns. If I was going to do an adaptation of the Club, like for a TV show or a movie, I think I would do the classic 80s lineup plus Shinobi. I think that’s a good intro to them. If I was going to do a 616 comics story, I think I’d try to AVOID the typical choices. I love Emma, but I would leave her out of it, because I think that any story with Emma in it is just going to end up being all about Emma, particularly if the other characters aren’t “big” enough to compete with her...and honestly, she doesn’t need to be tied to the Hellfire Club for everything, she’s a hero now for a reason. So as much as I love her, I wouldn’t have her in it. I’d also be wary of including Sebastian or Madelyne for the same reasons, despite my love for them, but at the same time I feel like Sebastian hasn’t had a story in waaay too long that wasn’t about Emma, and he deserves a chance to come back as a good villain again? Up until the issue where he kills Shadowcat, he was a pretty limp villain for the 2010s. Madelyne isn’t really synonymous with the Club in the way that Sebastian, Emma, and Selene are, but she’s likewise just got so much going on that I feel she’d take over the story for me. So, no Emma or Selene or Maddie, but TENTATIVELY one or both of the Shaws. Tentatively. And tentatively Harry Leland or RED LOTUS But more importantly, the women. We know the Hellfire Club has a ton of badass women, but what about the less prominent ones? First off, BENAZIR KAUR is a longtime one-issue wonder fave of mine, I want her back as White Queen. Sat-Yr-9 was also the White Queen for one story, and while I have always wanted to see her back in that role, I think for this setup, I would instead cast VIPER as the Black Queen. Viper served as Sat-Yr-9′s bodyguard (”White Warrior Princess” that is not a chess piece or position Viper) but she’s a longtime major villain in her own right with a ton of backstory. I think her criminal empire in Madripoor would make her a good fit. But speaking of Madripoor and criminal empires, you know who else I think would be a good fit? TYGER TIGER. She’s like...a very ambiguous character, she’s like the good guy gangster type, you know? Like...Viper allowed slavery and sex trafficking in Madripoor, Tyger Tiger did NOT but she’s still allowing the sale of slaughtered tiger pelts. That kind of thing. And she and Viper have beef between them as two rival badass Madripoor lady crime lords so that makes for a good dramatic setup, there always needs to be a conflict in the Hellfire Club, they can never be a united group. Maybe Tyger is Black Queen and Viper is White King! Women can occupy the King seat, after all. And Viper was Prince of Madripoor for a bit! So, I think that Benazir Kaur, Tyger Tiger, and Viper are a great mix for the ladies, and while Red Lotus will probably get involved, Harry and the Shaws will stay out of it, haha. I would actually still LOVE to have Emma and Madelyne there, but like I said I feel like they would take over the story? I feel like Sebastian risks that already so I might cut it to just Shinobi and Harry plus Red Lotus. Of course, if I threw out concerns about story constraints, the lineup would be a HUGE clusterfuck of:

Sebastian Shaw Shinobi Shaw Emma Frost Tessa/Sage Selene Madelyne Pryor Harry Leland Benazir Kaur Sat Yr 9 Viper Tyger Tiger Red Lotus Monet St. Croix (she was White Queen for an issue and I was so excited about that and NOTHING CAME OF IT) Haven and Monsoon Fabian Cortez THE HELLIONS And I’d have the London Branch pop in for a bit! They had some interesting characters--- Emma Steed aka Damask, Scribe, Margali Szardos (yes as in Kurt’s mom!) and the Red King, who was never given a name but was a sword-wielding fellow of Maori or Kiwi heritage:

And I certainly wouldn’t mind seeing Emma’s siblings again, especially Cordelia! That lineup would be insane to juggle, of course. But they’re all characters I like who either were canonically members, or that I could see being members for whatever reason (wealth, status, etc) who I like. I would also REALLY love to see the Paris and Hong Kong branches! 95% of the Hellfire Club stories are specifically about the Manhattan branch, to the point that when anyone says “Hellfire Club” that’s who they mean, and I think most writers have forgotten this but there are FOUR branches---Manhattan, London, Paris, and Hong Kong. I think maybe the Madripoor drama could focus on the Hong Kong branch, since Madripoor is a southeast Asian country and thus would be closest to China. Of course, building those Inner Circles might just plain call for designing new characters!

okay I'm putting my tinfoil hat on and calling it now :

the only reason margali got bastardised this badly for the past year and treated Kurt so horribly out of the blue after being MIA for nearly 10 years (she last showed up in his 2014 series so yeah, about a decade) is just so mystique appears better as a parental in comparison when the new origin story drops. (... gonna throw destiny in there too because we're at a point where the plot getting this stupid is 100% an option)

if i'm way off, I'll rejoice. if not...

would that even be a win?

Anon stop reminding me that the early 2010s was 10 years ago! Time is not real!

Lol, still though its surreal to me how much time has passed. I feel less connected to marvel as a fan really, I haven't actually felt super connected to the fans for many years now beyond a few of my friends I made through Marvel and DC fandoms but we don't even really talk about marvel anymore.

Yeah honestly I think Margali may always be written badly to make Mystique look better even though Mystique's characterisation is less consistent than the quality of food from a restaurant in kitchen nightmares. Seriously I don't understand the motivations of Main universe Mystique. Is she a well intentioned extremist? Does she want to make things better for Mutants? Is she just selfish? Does she care about her children? Or does she just use them for her own ends?

I know some may make the argument that the lack of consistency makes her so mysterious but personally I don't think it works for a story like X-men. We don't need Mystique to be the Joker, we need to have her show another side of the Mutant Extremist ideology. Honestly for all the faults of the Fox X-men films I feel like their reboot take on Mystique was a lot stronger characterisation of her than most of the comics. I also think Evolution Mystique is another good incarnation of her.

@sophiaforevs​

Also I just think the dynamic between Nico/Karolina and Strange would be great. Strange being all abrasive/arrogant and it really getting under Nico's skin but then her using sarcasm to just tear holes in his ego and Karolina getting a rise out of Strange because his caustic attitude just has no effect on her carefree attitude.

Yes! Yes to all! But in the end Nico and Stephen get along because they’re both soft. And Karolina and Wong smirk at each other because they been knew haha

@drstrangesorcerersupreme​ said:

What if

Magik was already a Sorceress Supreme of another dimension?

Oh wait she is the Sorceress Supreme of Limbo. Or was. The wiki says former but the source they linked is busted.

Seriously Marvel

Did you like forget that some dimensions if not all of them have their own Sorcerer Supreme? Or did you throw that logic out the window when you threw Clea out of the Marvel canon? Because she was (I think still is) the Sorceress Supreme of the Dark Dimension.

Next thing I will probably hear from them is that Magik is actually the daughter of Clea and Stephen and definitely not a mutant at all (this is sarcasm)

She was indeed the Sorceress Supreme of Limbo, as we can see in New Mutants #50!

I think the concept is a bit different in Limbo, tho. I know for sure that the true ruler is the strongest being/demon in that dimension. When Illyana defeated Belasco, she became the new ruler. And S’ym is always trying to dethrone her (with or without aid). It doesn’t mean the next ruler will become Sorcerer Supreme automatically. But it’s not that hard to wonder that because it’s a dimension made of magic. And well, one must control magic in order to become its ruler But, unlike Earth, there’s no Vishanti Tournament - which honestly means nothing because Stephen first became Sorcerer Supreme with the Ancient One’s blessing. Belasco was not the former Sorcerer Supreme when Illyana dethroned him. But Illyana learned magic from him and Storm. Not to mention that she traveled through time in order to become Stephen’s apprentice, except we don’t know exactly when.

There are other Sorcerers Supreme in Limbo, like Jimaine and Margali. So I really don’t know how this works haha. I think Illyana was dead when this happened, but I’m not sure. Her wiki says she’s the former Sorceress Supreme and ruler. I’m currently reading Ghost Rider v9, and I believe it’s true. Belasco is seen on his throne, but I have no idea how he got it back.

And I’m not even talking about Clea. She was the Sorceress Supreme of the Dark Dimension, while Dormammu and Umar aren’t, even though they all wore the Flames of Regency. Makes sense? No.

In short: I’m confusion haha. Basically, if you’re the most powerful sorcerer of your own dimension, you’re allowed to proclaim yourself supreme. Only Earth is full of sorcerers so they kinda created a tournament in case people want to prove themselves. Comics and their continuity, am I right?

Sorry for the long reply!

Heard about some things going on with my boy Nightcrawler recently. I haven't paid attention to X-men comics in a year, and before that I was just barely clinging to it... I can't even remember the last book I read, it was the one where Nightcrawler chills with Legion and whatnot. So I know, or knew, about Krakoa and House of X, but around the time Moira's powers were revealed (and then stolen) I was completely checked out. Only heard about that last bit from bf.

But I'm interested in these new developments. Not enough to start reading X-books again (lol) but enough to want to write about them on tumblr :P

So since I'm not really reading the books, I don't have the full story. This is just me sort of going "huh, might be cool" about stuff I've heard/scans I've come across.

One: Nightcrawler's "Hopesword." (Someone on CBR called it his Care Bear sword lol) What I like about it is: well, they did this before, right? There was a whole solo series where Crawler turned out to have Illyana's Soulsword stuck inside him, a subplot which went exactly nowhere. Like, all that happens regarding Crawler and the Soulsword in, um, what was it called? Inferno? is he gets the sword stolen back xD Very pointless. So to me this "Hopesword" business has the makings of the kind of story I'd hoped for with the Soulsword. I'm not sore about the Soulsword - imo it should be with Kitty anyway, not Kurt, if Illyana doesn't have it - but I'm not just going to let the waste of a storyline slide

Yeah, "Hopesword" is kinda kiddie, like some fans are saying. He saves people with the power of his kind soul! (Some people are using the word "pure" and while I suppose they're not wrong, I've always thought of Piotr as the pure one. It's kind of important to me because Kurt being kind despite the struggles he and his friends go through is an entirely different sort of strength. But it does seem to me that "pure" is associated with Kurt too these days in the books :/ but I digress) I think how kiddie it turns out will be up to how it's written. It will be very easy to overdo something like that, or water it down so much it loses relevance. But on the other hand, I want to like it because I think kindness should be up there along with courage and perseverance and wisdom as a vital superhero strength - as well as a manly one. Buuut it is very VERY easy to veer into Fifth Element "the answer was love all long!" territory... and this is an X-book. So I'm not even sure what to expect from this. Although I find it amusing that apparently Sinister's Nightcrawler clones, because they're cloned from him, make a flat out, totally anticlimactic refusal to be the teleporting assassins he wants them to be, and instead just leave lol. I approve.

Two: Horns! Monster transformation! Well, I'd say Nightcrawler getting horns was always gonna happen. Round the time they introduced secondary mutations, we Crawler fans were all on edge waiting for when he was gonna get horns lol. Took decades but it's finally happened. No, I don't like them. I want them gone. But I will learn to love them if they stick. As for the monster: like the Hopesword, this is clearly also picking up on "stories that would have been cool but weren't." In this case, that time Illyana transformed Nightcrawler into a mindless monster and it was just sort of a thing that happened and then we moved on lol. This time looks to be more serious and I don't know what it means for the future. Shocked by Margali's role though. I don't know what she could be getting out of working with Orchis. But it's cool to see her back. I had been wondering if we'd see her soon back when the X-men in Krakoa started doing stuff in Otherworld or whatever it's called.

Three: this one is much smaller than the others, but Margali brought up Kurt's stint in Heaven. Which I think we all thought was retconned. I'm definitely surprised because in that specific story, Nightcrawler also sold his soul, so if it's still canon what exactly is the Hopesword? Or, I guess, it's a Hopesword because without a soul it couldn't be a Soulsword...? xD Idk but I'm mostly glad to see that lost soul storyline might not be a total loss. I know it doesn't mean we'll get a good story out of it... but like I said, I'm just not letting wasting storylines slide!

What I like overall is the "go big or go home" approach. Previously X-books never wanted to do anything too extreme with their popular characters. As a result they just languish in the status quo. When you introduce big changes, a lot of people are going to dislike them. But even as they dislike them, they might be on the edge of their seats wondering what will happen next. As a storyteller you've got to take that chance, in my opinion. I always complain when I think reimagined characters/stories are too much of a departure from the original material, BUT I also complain when we just get more of the same over and over and over. So I'm gonna give kudos for taking these ballsy moves with Nightcrawler, who is decently popular, even if he's not super well known like Cyclops or Wolverine. And I'm gonna give kudos for sticking to his kindness being a source of strength, even if it sometimes comes off cheesy.

... For me, tbh, a lot of the cheesiness is coming from Spurrier's writing style ^^; Which I don't want to knock on because I remember I was enjoying his books more than others when I was reading them. His voice for the characters isn't to my taste is all. It's a mix of kind of pretentious, but with a lot of sentences ending in question marks, which sounds in my head like the way teenagers talk. It's fine when it suits the character, but everyone gets this treatment, even scary bad guys lol. I feel similarly with Claremont - in fact, my complaints about Claremont are almost exactly the same: half the time too grandiose, the other half too laid back. For me, anyway. That being said, another major factor is simply comic books themselves. It's not the medium that's the problem, but the limited page number and the required amount of action per issue etc. That's why I'm doubtful the things I think are cool will turn out in a way I really like... but hey, maybe I'll at least kind of like it.

There's tons going on in X-books that I don't know about which are no doubt way more important than the things I mentioned. It's just really great to see my long time favorite in a role where things happen - things that don't then just get swept under the rug la-di-da. In the world of superheroes, where writers can change whatever they want whenever they want, there really isn't a reason not to just write the interesting story you want to. After all, if no one likes it it'll just get retconned. And if they do like it, it's like wow, superhero comics can still be genuinely fun and not just nostalgia trips through yesteryear.

When Will Marvel Stop Being Cowards And Let Nightcrawler Be Amazing?

In AGE OF X-MAN: THE AMAZING NIGHTCRAWLER #1 by, Seanan McGuire and Juan Frigeri everyone’s favorite blue and fuzzy mutant is the most popular and famous figure in the world. This is the best indication we have that this alternate reality is actually the utopia it is claimed to be. Over forty years past his introduction and it still shocks me the Kurt Wagner isn’t the biggest name, not just in comics, but in media as a whole. Nightcrawler possesses the winning combination of an incredible and visually exciting design alongside a charming and likable personality. He has been beloved by X-Men fans for generations but has not been able to teleport himself out of that bubble and into solo success.

It isn’t that Kurt has been ignored, writers pretty much immediately got the appeal. Nightcrawler was a pet character for his creator, Dave Cockrum. While Dave was drawing UNCANNY X-MEN and Chris Claremont was writing, Nightcrawler seemed to be the break-out character, pulling a lot of focus. This lessened after John Byrne began drawing the title and wanted to focus on the Canadian Wolverine. Still, Nightcrawler remained a popular mutant. He was the second X-Man to get a solo mini-series and briefly led the X-Men in the mid-80s. During the mutant madness of the early 90s, Nightcrawler was positioned as the lead character in Excalibur. But as time went on it became clear that no one was able to figure out what to do with the character.

Credit to Marvel, it hasn’t been for lack of trying. Nightcrawler just started his 5th solo series, but none of them have lasted past issue #12. While the jury is still out on THE AMAZING NIGHTCRAWLER (it had an enjoyable but imperfect first issue), only one of his solo series actually got to the core of what works about the character. Dave Cockrum’s 1985 NIGHTCRAWLER limited series sees Kurt on a swashbuckling adventure where he gets to become a pirate, save a princess, and live out his Errol Flynn fantasies. It isn’t a self-serious character piece or an examination on the human condition, it is just a beautiful drawn romp by way of Edgar Rice Burroughs. This is the sweet spot for Nightcrawler.

Other attempts to kick off a story about the character fell on their face by looking at the wrong aspects of Nightcrawler. Chris Kipiniak and Matthew Dow Smith’s 2002 NIGHTCRAWLER for the Marvel Icons line examined a relatively recent (at the time) development for the character, his ordination into the Catholic priesthood. Ignoring the fact that no one involved in this story knew how priest work, it is an interesting angle, but one that fundamentally changes the character and his appeal. Up until around 2000, Nightcrawler’s faith was an aspect of the character, but not the defining one. He was religious in the way most religious people are. It was part of his life sure, but it didn’t define every action he made. Kurt wasn’t one to go on moody diatribes about the existential nature of faith. This series focused on that at the expense of the joy and energy that normally comes when Nightcrawler is on the page.

I’m curious why external media choses to play up this aspect of the character. In both his appearance on X-MEN: THE ANIMATED SERIES and X2: X-MEN UNITED, Kurt’s defining characteristic is his piousness. Perhaps the creators see the appeal of exploring the duality of a demon on the side of angels, but in execution it never goes deeper than that. I wouldn’t advocate for eliminating his faith, it is an interesting dimension to the character, only to balance it with other aspects of his personality.

Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa and Darick Robertson tried again in 2004 with a book that leaned really hard into the supernatural. This is post-Draco, a horrible story when Kurt was revealed to be the son of a satan. It mixed those ideas with the well-established concept that his adopted mother, Margali Szardos, and his sister/lover were both powerful sorceresses. Again, this could be a fun concept if it was just Nightcrawler plus magic. Instead it became an overly dark and serious story about exorcism, abuse, and the destruction of relationships.

The crux of this twelve issue series deals with Nightcrawler’s brother Stefan Szardos. Kurt was forced to kill a demon possessed Stefan to prevent his brother from murdering children. This led to the formation of the mob the chased Kurt in GIANT SIZE X-MEN #1. It’s a dark origin for the character, and one most writers tend to leave in the past. It doesn’t play to any of the swashbuckling strengths that Nightcrawler has and doubles down on some of the worst tendencies of mid-00s comics. The last issue is Nightcrawler having an existential crisis while talking to Mephisto. It isn’t what anyone wanted from the character and that tone is a big reason why it didn’t resonate with readers.

The closest we have gotten to a Nightcrawler ongoing that actually worked was Chris Claremont and Todd Nauck’s 2014 series. It came in the aftermath of Nightcrawler fighting his way out of heaven and hell to come back to life in Jason Aaron’s AMAZING X-MEN. Tonally, the book hit a sweet spot, while probably leaning into the X-Men elements of the character too much to make it stand out. The first arc dealt with magic thanks to the return of Margali Szardos, but it was done in a whimsical, Excaliburesque way. Claremont smartly built up a unique supporting cast around Kurt, including the students Ziggy and Scorpion Boy, and an antagonistic love interest in the form of The Crimson Pirates’ Bloody Bess. Nauck’s artwork elevated the series by providing a joy that is essential to the character.

Unfortunately, the series had several roadblocks to success. Claremont’s tone and character voices were as good as his plots were bad. It was a mishmash of canon that was better left forgotten with a writing style that never evolved out of the 80s. The market dynamics at the time did little to help the book last. AMAZING X-MEN had just recently begun, and it was already marketed as the “Nightcrawler book”. Many customers weren’t going to double dip on the character. At the same time, Marvel was starting solo series for MAGNETO, CYCLOPS, STORM, and DOOP. Those existed in tandem with five other X-Men team books, two Wolverine books, and two books featuring secondary X-Teams. The market was flooded with X-Men and Nightcrawler didn’t stand a chance.

Even with these failures, Kurt Wagner remains beloved and his current mini speaks to that. In the Age of X-Man, the only intelligent thing Nate Grey did was make Nightcrawler the biggest star in the world. He is a celebrity in every sense of the word. He is beloved and iconic as a movie star and the premier superhero. It is no coincidence that the book is titled THE AMAZING NIGHTCRAWLER, or that the logo is a riff on Spider-Man’s. In the Age of X-Man, Kurt is as loved and well known as Spider-Man is our world. The trick is replicating that adoration.

Nightcrawler should be a slam dunk as a solo hero outside of the X-Men. If writers can lean into the swashbuckling adventure and away from existential questions of religion, they have a shot at making Nightcrawler a world-wide phenomenon. Let Kurt fight The Spot or Kraven The Hunter to get him out of the bubble of the X-Men. Let him join the Avengers and prove his mettle against the biggest threats. Let my dude be what Spider-Man is, the iconic character of the Marvel Universe. He deserves it.

PS: Give him his damn beard back!

Ngl this sounds perfectly on brand for the Krakoa era to have brain fart moments like these even this late in the game

Reminds me of the "Healing Gardens" the writers introduced at the start (2019) that are supposed to provide healthcare for everyone as the only infirmary on the whole island thanks to the 6 beds, the 1 certified surgeon/md in emergency medicine and 1 mutant with healing abilities they have.

You know, 6 miserable beds, 1 experienced practitioner and 1 active staff member for the 250.000 mutants and some more that could potentially require special medical devices or contraceptives (they still have those saucy-funtime spots around the island), need a specific kind of diagnosis (psychiatry, pediatrics, ophthalmology, ...), get pregnant and require a midwife (following the 1st law), start a medical record or be hit by a big scale epidemic (*cough* Margali's magic illness *cough*) at any time

Btw, the Healing Gardens are also used to perform the autopsies of strangely deceased mutants

... I'm no germophobe but if I get sick on Krakoa, I'd rather wait it out than go to the Healing Gardens and catch something worse

Super weird I haven't read anything about the healing gardens yet.. do you know which comics they might have discussed this in?

But yeah I would have to agree with you, I can't help but try to place myself and my own personal situation into Krakoa (pre or post fall) and you just can't ever win🤪

DKLSJDFJKFKSFJ That doesn't even sound like a retcon or miscommunication it really just sounds like the writers saying "reality can be whatever I want" 😭😭😭😭

duvete replied to your post “duvete replied to your post “I was going to say that my favorite...”

Oh man, it almost sounds like the characters don't act like real people. From women reduced to fighting each other over dumb stuff to Nightcrawler shouting Bible verses at people, and wasn't there a Romeo and Juliet-inspired story with one mutant dude with RED wings (so he's ttly different from Warren) where people quoted Shakespeare lines at each other? Austen's writing confused me so much, none of the characters or stories were appealing anymore.

I was pretty unpicky with X-Men, too, I enjoyed just about every single issue I read... until Austen.  :(  I was happy to hear that later writers just completely ignored Austen's stories as if they never happened, though! That's probably for the best.         

I read  #428 tonight and I’m starting to wonder if I’ve been giving Chuck too much credit, because he totally botched “The Draco” on the prologue.   On the recap page, he explains that Mystique might be Nightcrawler’s mother, but only she would know for sure.  That’s kind of dumb right there, because Mystique as Kurt’s mom has been a thing since like 1981, and it eventually got confirmed in X-Men Unlimited #4.    From what I understood, “The Draco” was supposed to be about Nightcrawler’s dad, but Austen seems to want to toy with the idea that Mystique may not be on the level either.   Then he goes and tells the story of Mystique giving birth to Nightcrawler anyway.  The only reveal is that she conceived him with some demonic character named Azazel. 

I’ve seen people criticize this idea, because ‘Crawler’s whole deal is that he merely looks like a blue demon, when he’s actually just a mutant human.   Having him actually be the literal son of a literal demon is too on the nose, and I guess I can understand that argument.   But I was always under the impression that Nightcrawler’s dad was supposed to be Belasco, the demonic X-Men foe who kidnapped Colossus’ kid sister and turned her into Magik.  They look a lot alike, except Belasco’s red and Nightcrawler’s blue, so I just assumed that this relationship was always implied by the writers, and it would get revealed the same way as Mystique being Kurt’s mom.  

Also, Kurt already had a bunch of supernatural baggage thanks to X-Men Annual #4, where we found out his adoptive mother was the sorceress Margali Szardos.   So making Kurt a half-demon/half-mutant never seemed like a stretch to me.  

No, what really irritates me is that I’m on the first page of this flashback story, and it’s set “Twenty Years Ago”.   So we’re saying Kurt Wagner’s less than 20 years old when the story starts?   That’s ridiculous.  Even if we assume the story is set a little further back than that, it still doesn’t jibe well with all of Mystique’s other backstory.   UXM #429 has her living with some rich baron, perfectly content except that the Baron is infertile so she can’t have a child.   By the end of the story, she gets outed as a mutant and has to start over from scratch, which I guess implies that this is how she got started as a mutant supervillain, but that still doesn’t leave much room for her to hook up with Destiny and adopt Rogue, or to give birth to her other son, Graydon Creed.   I’m pretty sure Graydon ought to be older than Nightcrawler, since he ran for President, and he would have had to be 35 to qualify for the office.  So if Mystique had already given birth to Graydon, why would she have been so worried about having a second child with anyone else?  

This sounds like I’m nitpicking, and I am, but that’s kind of the point of stories like these, where the writer basically announces: “Now I’m gonna tell you all what really happened.”   I love those kinds of stories.    My favorite Avengers story is Avengers Forever, which spends a lot of pages explaining plot holes and stitching together conspiracies from old issues of Avengers.  And it’s great, because the guy who wrote Forever actually paid attention to the source material.   If he hadn’t, the story wouldn’t have resonated properly with the audience.  Austen’s over here trying to do this big reveal about Nightcrawler, except he doesn’t seem to know any of the guy’s lore.   So it’s kind of fitting that later writers just ignored his work, I guess.   From what I understand, Azazel went on to be the main bad guy in one of the X-Men movies, but I’m not sure how big a deal that is. 

You’re right about the characters feeling phony.   It’s hard for me to take anything that happens in Austen’s stories seriously because they all act so erratic.   I’ve seen this happen a lot in comic books, usually ones from the mid-1990′s, where they’d just let anybody write anything because they were putting out way too many books.   A lot of Doctor Strange comics from 1994-1995 were virtually unreadable, for example.  They just didn’t make any sense and the characters behaved completely unlike themselves.  I just would have thought Marvel learned their lesson by 2003, but I guess not.