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gralunaisland · 2 years

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Part 3 of "Why Gray is NOT a Tsundere"

(An Anti-gr///via Post)

[Links to Part 1 and Part 2 are linked here.]

Some Instances of Gray's Lack of Tsundere-ness:

I went and found some moments where Gray is clearly showing how uncomfortable he is. I think it's fitting to provide my own evidence since Author did, but I was going to add examples anyway even if I hadn't read Author's post. Anyway, in anime and manga, the mangaka always makes it clear when someone is a tsundere, always makes the little details show that the tsundere actually likes the other individual. I see no such details in these panels.

Come on, look at how his hair is standing up in the last panel. His hair is literally standing on its end, which is indicative of chills running up your spine and being completely unnerved and freaked out. He's not joking that she's scary, he's not trying to cutely cover it up that he secretly enjoys this. The voice actors do a great job of showing how distraught Gray is by this in the anime too.

Yeah, Gray's face says it all. Those vertical lines on his face are used in manga to show when someone's uncomfortable or feeling some sort of negative downer feeling. And wow just look at her language. Gray right out says he's not into this type of thing, it's not something he's comfortable with, that he doesn't have these perverted hobbies, and yet she responds with "But I doooo~", showing very clearly that she doesn't care whatsoever about what makes Gray happy or at peace of mind, just that her own fetishes and fantasies are being fulfilled. Wow. The more I investigate juvia, the more I am disgusted. I didn't think it was possible tbh, but I suppose I should've known since it's juvia we're talking about, queen of toxicity and creepiness.

Just look how disgruntled and aggrieved Gray is here. He's literally sweating bullets. No ounce of blush, no once of him trying to hide any underlying feeling, just pure unadulterated discomfort and unease. juvia's not even denying what he's saying here (her deplorable behind is actually proud of her actions, which you can see on her disgusting smug expression). He obviously didn't invite her or happily let her in; she literally barged in and would NOT leave his house, which just means that she followed him to his new home, so yeah, the stalking never ends, people!!

I don't even remember which episode this is, but Gray's expression is full of distress and absolutely freaking the heck out. He doesn't find this endearing or cute at all, and he makes it clear that he doesn't even want to be associated with her by others nor to have to deal with her.

Also don't remember which episode, but c'mon, she's a naked chick rubbing up against him, and he's STILL disgusted. Those lines of discomfort on his face and those sweat drops again. Not even juvia's superficial paltry looks can make him interested.

Ah yes, I'm pretty sure this was from an Omake after the GMG where the losing FT team had to do a punishment game or something or other. Again, juvia's naked breast has been whipped out despite no one wanting to see it, what an actual disturbing pervert. (And no, this is not comparable to Gray's stripping habit in the slightest because juvia has full control of herself despite never using self-control, whereas Gray's stripping is sort of an instinct [I've seen some people say it might be a trauma response/coping mechanism, and I think it could very well be that] ingrained into him by his deceased mentor where he actually gets really embarrassed once he finds himself down to his boxers, as he does it unconsciously. juvia however has no shame and is actively sexually harassing Gray by doing this, not to mention just plain copying him with a complete lack of dignity, and she is showing that she literally has no personality outside of Gray and is literally amalgamating with him.) And instead of liking the view, Gray's utterly creeped out. You might think that Gray just doesn't appreciate the female form like that, but Gray shows that to be false through him going gooey-eyed when Virgo changed Lucy in front of him, or when he was excited to check the shower for Lucy when they were looking for her, or how he fantasized about Lucy in a skimpy paper outfit, or even how he blushed really hard when Virgo was helping keep Lucy's skirt down in high winds while her own was flashing him. All in all, Gray likes the female form, just not THIS female form because it comes with a psychopath.

Again, no blush, all freaking out, despite, again, a nigh naked woman glomping onto him full force (which is sexual harassment might I add since he doesn't consent.)

Note here, what's funny is Author used the first panel in their "proof", and yet they coincidentally decided to leave out the very next panel where Gray is clearly creeped out by juvia's refusal to face reality and her refusal of acknowledging his boundaries. Again, all sweat and all seriousness. Nothing about her reaction to his rejection is funny to him, nothing is being hidden, he's genuinely creeped by her (and honestly who wouldn't be?? Pros, think about it. If someone kept pursuing you despite you not being interested and despite you telling them you're not, would you not be creeped out? Why do you support this witch again?)

This last picture is even from the 100yq, something I don't even consider to be canon thanks to Gray being completely OOC, where gr///via has been hammered into being 'canon', and even here there are still scenes where Gray is just grossed out by juvia and completely uncomfortable, in a nervous sweat to boot. You can still commit sexual harassment even if you're dating, I hope y'all know that.

I would love to post more evidence, really, I would, but the internet actually just hates all things Anti gr//////via unfortunately. Looking up anti gruvia just brings up mostly anti-anti gr///via content because of course that makes sense, and I don't feel like rewatching all their "moments" right now because I value my sanity a little bit.

Oh well. That's why I run this blog. Gotta represent.

Whenever I do my next re-watch, maybe I'll take screenshots of all the times Gray is grossed out by her. Does NOT sound fun because I don't want to have juvia's pictures on my phone, but it might just have to be done.

Anyway, all that I put into these three posts (and probably more tbh but my brain is fried from thinking about juvia so much rn) is why I think Gray is NOT a tsundere.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

Closing Notes:

I think I'll just end this trilogy of posts quite unceremoniously here. I've spent hours and hours working on it, so I really just want feedback on it at this point. I hope I don't sound too mean throughout the posts; I tried to be transparent and honest though.

Please do let me know your thoughts on the subject of Gray being or not being a tsundere, and please give me your thoughts on my post! Discussion helps get us closer to the truth! Please remain respectful even if you disagree with what I said, though.

(Also, I would like to know whether my readers like these long, in depth studies into different aspects of Pro gr///vian arguments, or if y'all like my shorter responses to asks instead. If you don't care, that's fine too. I don't do much of these longer posts anymore because I have so many actually amazing asks, so maybe that's for the better, idk, lmk.)

Anyway, thank you for your time, and I hope you enjoyed my analysis! Have a wonderful day/night!

#anti gruvia #anti juvia #fairy tail #anti juvia lockser #anti juvia loxar #defend gray fullbuster #gray fullbuster #anti gray x juvia #fairy tail debate #fairy tail discourse #fairy tail discussion #gray isn't a tsundere #gray is not a tsundere #tsundere #tsunderes #fairytail #gralunaessay

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gralunaisland · 2 years

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Do you think Ichiya's harassment towards Erza is the same thing as Juvia's harassment towards Gray? and if that's the case then why is Erza allowing Juvia doing the same thing?

Double Standard between Ichiya and juvia

I do think Ichiya's harassment is basically the same thing as juvia's harassment. I really like your bringing attention to the fact that despite Erza being a victim of sexual harassment, she allows and encourages juvia to do the same thing to Gray.

Let's examine some of their behaviors side by side, shall we?

(Now it's been quite a few months since I watched FT last so I'm not going to remember every single Ichiya or juvia moment, but I'll write about what I remember off the top of my head. This won't be my greatest post, because of my bad memory haha. Feel free to comment any more similarities I might've missed!)

Ichiya has a habit of calling Erza pet names that have made her very uncomfortable. Tbh I'm not remembering all of them but I think he called her "baby" in the English dub version.

juvia also has a plethora of pet names for Gray that they had never agreed on and he had never asked for, just like Erza hadn't, like "darling" in the English dub. Also whenever she says Gray's name, she adds "-sama" to the end of it, elevating Gray to an embarrassing degree. I'm not an expert on Japanese suffixes, but I know they use that term when speaking to someone of muuuuch higher status than the speaker, like when they're referring to God, they say "kami-sama". It shows a crazy amount of respect and humbling of oneself, and Gray never asked for that and certainly doesn't consider himself better than juvia (though he should because she's pits). If you think about it, it's about the equivalent of this person who's unhealthily obsessed with you bowing down to you and calling you "your royal highness" or "your lordship" or "my queen/king" and actually meaning that level of respect when you never wanted them to in the first place. I think most people who don't have inflated egos would be very uncomfortable with someone who follows them around calling them those things all the time in public and in front of their friends especially.

Ichiya invades Erza's space all the time, sniffing her "parfum" at a very disturbingly close distance, which usually ends up with him getting kicked in the face.

juvia does the same thing constantly, with her even jumping into Gray's mouth naked before. she hugs him (more like tackles him) out of the blue so much, and she didn't let go of his hand when he wanted her too after their unison raid in the GMG. It's really gross to blatantly ignore someone's personal bubble on a regular basis, especially if that person hasn't okayed it. Did her parents never teach her "hands to yourself" as a kid? Someone really needs to now. It's very r*pey behavior to put your hands on someone else, especially lecherously as she does, without their consent.

Ichiya treats Erza as if they're a package deal already despite them being very decidedly not.

juvia also pesters Gray incessantly about being her one and only, very assured that he is in fact hers despite never asking him to date her. she's a weird one. Sometimes she seems like she knows they're not dating, as she tries so hard to win him over, and sometimes she shows she thinks they are dating by being all lovey dovey and expecting Gray to only have eyes for her. she really is just crazy and has no rhyme or reason, so I don't worry too much about what she actually thinks because she clearly doesn't think at all. All that to say, she ignores what Gray wants because he's rejected her before and she doesn't care, and she's delusional from thinking her methods work and are humane.

I guess the last similarity I can think of, that ties in the stuff I've already mentioned, is that neither of them takes no for an answer, which is soooo r*pey (yes, I use this term a lot, but it really captures their behavior) of them. It's just abhorrent to keep pushing and pushing their agenda to obtain the relationship they want even though the object of their disgusting affection clearly pushes back and rejects their advances.

Unforgivable really.

I can't believe this type of behavior is romanticized and humorized in anime and manga so often when it's just gross and criminal.

Back to your second question: Why is Erza allowing juvia to do the same thing to Gray when in reality, shouldn't she understand what Gray is going through since she has to endure it with Ichiya?

Honestly this is a really good question, and one I hadn't really thought hard into before. I think I might have an answer, though I'm sure Mashima didn't think this far through with his terrible character "development" skills.

First of all, this is just another example of men getting the short end of the stick in media. While Ichiya's advances get rebutted with a swift kick that sends him flying (as they should), juvia's advances are more or less allowed even with Gray's clear discomfort. And no one seems to care that Gray is being harassed. With Ichiya, it's clear we're meant to find him disgusting and a pig through even just his character design, with his very short body (which is usually found to be an unattractive character trait in men in society) and an ugly face. With juvia though, she's designed to be traditionally attractive, with the usual huge breasts and curvy yet slim figure, as well as a "cutesy" face. We're supposed to find her pretty, and therefore "she should be allowed to do all these nasty things to Gray because her pretty privilege turns all her nonconsensual harassments into being cute and acceptable."

News flash, it doesn't matter what you look like, if you ignore consent, you're disgusting and ugly af on the inside.

Just because juvia is conventionally cute and a woman (because so many people don't think women can have the power to do these criminal acts to men), she's given a pass, and we're supposed to root for her.

That's the first reason Erza is encouraging juvia, because Mashima is banking on the fact that everyone who watches/reads FT finds juvia's actions to be acceptable through her pretty woman privilege, and therefore he just wanted a female friend of hers to help her and support her actions. A character in the story, especially an important one like Erza, showing they support juvia is sort of the same thing as Mashima himself showing he agrees that juvia and Gray should be endgame.

Another reason, this will be more speculative and story-based, could definitely be that Erza is just friggin' dense and doesn't realize the parallel between Ichiya and juvia, or that juvia's actions are damaging to Gray's well-being. We're shown throughout the show that she's dense when it comes to certain things, especially how to behave in social settings. This could just be an offshoot of that, that like juvia, she's socially stunted on this front and fails to realize that juvia's actions are exactly like Ichiya's because she's a cute girl.

She's also been shown to be sort of an older sister figure to Gray, and that comes along with her bossing him around. She's used to being obeyed by Gray and Natsu and in general because of her power and her intimidating aura, so it could really be that she's decided that she knows what's best for Gray, that Gray needs some love and romantic affection, and that juvia, since she is a ready resource that's completely willing to provide him that, is perfect for him. Maybe Erza respects juvia's "undying loyalty" -more like undying obsession- since the red-head has had to deal with loyalties and trust being broken before (think Tower of Heaven).

In the end, I think the true answer as to why Erza supports juvia is the usual one, oldy but a goody, that Mashima is just a sucky writer when it comes to all things gruviugh. I think the real Erza would never support let alone encourage juvia's unsolicited acts of fixating on and fetishizing Gray. I'd like to think she would be there for him like a truly good big sis would, and that she would spring to protect him from those who would do him wrong in a heartbeat.

That, unfortunately, is not the case, and yes, it's Mashima's fault for writing her so out of character, but unfortunately, it's how Erza canonically acts. I shake my head at this author yet again.

Closing Notes:

Thank you so much for your patience! I am back! :) Please do comment below if you have any thoughts as to why Erza supports this behavior despite her grievances with Ichiya, or if you have any thoughts at all!

#anti gruvia #askgraluna #ask #anti juvia #fairy tail #anti juvia lockser #anti juvia loxar #defend gray fullbuster #gray fullbuster #anti gray x juvia #double standards #sorry i took so long TvT #anti ichiya #gralunaessay #anti gray fullbuster x juvia lockser

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gralunaisland · 2 years

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Hey, I'm @xanvasofxords! Glad to be talking to you for the first time, until now I only ever saw your posts but never interacted much. But holy shit you speak so true--

Anyways, you know, I don't ship Gray with anyone. Because there's simply nobody I find is a suitable love interest for him in the series. I don't ship Graylu, just as that anon, but I passionately hate Gruvia. Why? Because it's result of a serious character assassination of two characters at once. One of them *cough* Gray *cough* used to be my favorite once before Gruvia brainrot took over Mashima. Sadly, now I don't care about him.

That said, I can't completely ignore his butchered character every time he's onscreen. So I just wanted to elaborate my own thoughts on the topic about Lucy and Erza being Gray's type :

Gray has carried the guilt of being the reason of his master and her daughter's despair. It's pretty normal for him to resist people who express their love towards him. It has to be done slowly, eventually breaking the invisible wall he surrounds himself with. With friendship. There's no other way than friendship.

The friends Gray grew up with mean his world. Why wouldn't they, they've been there since he joined the guild. They've been sharing happiness and sorrows together. Especially team Natsu members are a crucial part of his life. They helped him overcome his past with Ur and Deliora. He needs a person who values the relationships just as much as him if not more.

Gray is mature, but he can be pretty childish too. I think he needs someome to match his energy. She has to keep him in check while also being one with his fun-loving nature at times.

Gray is quite hesitant in terms of being affectionate in public it seems. He needs someone to respect that boundary for him and wait until he's ready. Someone who won't embarass him.

Gray needs someone who isn't dependant on him. Someone who can take care of herself even when he's not present.

I don't think Juvia has even one of these unfortunately. She's completely dependant on him emotionally, will literally drown a town with rain if need be. Doesn't respect Gray's boundaries and embarasses him publicly and even in front of thousand people in a arena. Her only gag is love and love rivals and love rival sensor. She doesn't match his energy except stripping alongside him and picking his clothes. She tries to compare herself with his friends all the time. Can't bear to think about him being alone with anybody, let alone Lucy. She wants him to choose her over everybody. She forces herself onto him with no regards of his discomfort.

I had a conversation with a friend of mine about this who follows you. So here is a piece of my mind! I'd message you off-anon but tumblr would reveal my main blog so sorry for the anon!

Hi, @xanvasofxords! Nice to meet you! I've seen some of your awesome posts around in the anti-tags, and I agree with a lot of what you say! You've got a very refreshing take on certain aspects of FT, so I am delighted that you're stopping by!

Onto your thoughts:

I totally understand where you're coming from, how you don't ship Gray with anyone. In all honesty, as an Anon has sent in an ask before, I would be totally fine if Mashima didn't make any ships canon and kept the focus on friendship and familial love. I think the show had its best moments when it stayed on course with the moral of the story. Not every friendship has to boil down to romantic love, and it's very refreshing to see powerful yet platonic love between friends. I personally think Gray staying by himself would be just as healthy as him being with Lucy, but that's just me, so please do keep doing you in regard to your ships haha.

Oh man, I so agree with you here though, that gr///via simultaneously destroys 2 characters' characters (ha) at once. juvia had all the potential to be a really cool, relatable heroine, who overcame feelings of loneliness and low self-worth with the help of her friends. Gray had the potential to finally put himself first for a change and value his own life so he could live for his friends and for himself and not just throw his life away for them.

But nope.

With the introduction of gr///via, juvia loses all individuality and self-agency. she finds no worth in herself, only in following and slobbering over Gray. she loses all relatability when she begins to act selfishly and creepily and obsessively as soon as someone shows her an ounce of human decency. she doesn't even care about friends, no matter what the once-in-a-blue-moon "i love friends" moments will try to have you think, and she would abandon any semblance of friends at the drop of a hat if it meant she could be with Gray.

With the introduction of gr///via, Gray now is shackled to a woman who doesn't actually love him but wants to possess him, and he's now manipulated into only living for her (not himself nor his friends) and only wanting her to be happy (disregarding himself entirely). There's being selfless, and then there's completely losing your sense of self. You can't help others by neglecting yourself completely, you know. juvia doesn't care that Gray's devolved into this; she just wanted him in her clutches, so she's happy Gray's joined her in her sick, manic, twisted version of love.

Yeah, you put it perfectly: it's a "serious character assassination of two characters at once". Neither of them is the best they could be, and they're no longer recognizable to whom they once were.

I don't blame you for not caring about the current 100yq Gray anymore; for me, I still hold true to the old Gray, the real Gray. The current Gray is definitely not the one we knew and loved.

Onto what you say next, wow.

Just wow.

I'm blown away by your thoughtfulness; you've parsed everything so wonderfully!

I agree with you 100% about your analysis of Gray and how romance would go with him. Wow, you make such good points; I'll give a few thoughts, but I really don't need to, because you've hit the nails on the head, my friend.

There's definitely no way to romance with him outside of friendship. That's the only way he's gotten close to people before, so it wouldn't make sense for him to fall in love with someone he was never friends with. He most definitely was never friends with juvia, considering friendship was never on the table with her, only romantic partners. she doesn't care about what he wants; she just wanted to date him, to own him. That's definitely not friendship. And friends were his whole life, so it makes even less sense that a woman who hates his closest, dearest, female friends just because they're women would become the object of his affection.

As for the rest of the characteristics, all of which I agree with, juvia absolutely doesn't fulfill any of those requirements. she in fact demolishes them by being the exact opposite of what Gray needs in a healthy relationship. I'm not going to reiterate it because you made such a perfect conclusion yourself, but I will say that my gosh, I don't understand how people could like juvia and this pairing when juvia doesn't even exist. she's not her own person; she has no personality or goals or motivations outside of Gray. The only things left to her are her jealousy, her selfishness, and her obsessiveness. Otherwise, she gives Gray nothing, and she herself is nothing, which you can see clearly if you take Gray out of the equation. (I talk more about this in this old post of mine).

I'm happy that we got connected through a follower of mine and a friend of yours! The Anti community is still strong! And don't worry about the anonymous thing, it really doesn't matter to me whether someone uses it or not! Anyway, thank you for sharing your wonderful thoughts! This was such a meticulously written ask, I am very impressed!

#im very happy to get more in touch with the anti community #and wow there are some really smart ones out there haha #though all of you are smart to me already!#askgraluna #ask #anti gruvia #anti juvia #fairy tail #anti juvia lockser #anti juvia loxar #defend gray fullbuster #gray fullbuster #fairy tail discourse #fairy tail discussion #romance in anime #gralunaessay #anti gray fullbuster x juvia lockser #anti gray x juvia

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gralunaisland · 2 years

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pros always focus solely on the 'canon' part of certain gruvia moments. Ch 499 especially, they deliberately ignore how forced the scene is since gray & juvia have abilities that SHOULD allow them to escape. Instead they focus on the Japanese translations and go 'See it's canon! Gray loves Juvia!! Double suicide is used in Japan to show love!' Like yeah, congrats you got your canon via contrivances & poor writing, what a win.

The Double Gray and juvia Su*cide Was NOT Romantic

Ugh, I am feeeeling your salt right now, Anon.

"Congrats, you got your canon via contrivances and poor writing, what a win".

I am with you in the amount of sarcasm in this statement. Everything about gr///via is contrivances and poor writing, with an ample portion of toxicity and abuse to boot.

The stupid scene where Gray and juvia must perform a double su*cide is so dumb, I agree. To be completely honest, I never really pored over the scene, either in anime or manga, I just know generally what happens. So, if I get something wrong, someone feel free to correct me. But anyway, it's so dumb how juvia's OP power of being made of water is practically never used, especially for the sake of it being a gr///via plot point. juvia (I presume, I'm still unsure of the nature of the binding magic) should've been able to escape it by liquifying herself.

This isn't even the only time she hasn't used her power when she totally could've! Let's think back to her fight with Gray alllll the way back in the Phantom Lord arc, when she fell off the castle and was acting like she was going to die or some baloney. You're literally water; you hit water, you'll just turn into water, and you'll be fine. Idiot. Moron. Imbecile.

And my goodness, Pros who say "See it's canon! Gray loves juvia!" just because of the double su*cide thing are so grasping at straws because Gray has time and time again tried to sacrifice himself for his friends.

juvia isn't special.

Are Pros really going to pretend like if it was Natsu on the other end of that magic, or Lucy, or Erza, or heck even a supporting character like Max, that he wouldn't throw away his life for them in a heartbeat?

That's literally one of his main issues that he struggles with throughout the show that's literally addressed by other characters, how Gray needs to live for his friends, not to die for them. And then at the end of it, all Gray says is he'll take her feelings seriously for once so don't die instead of "Oh my gosh juvia I love you so much for no reason now."

Honestly, it's such a dumb, brain-dead plot point that presumably Gray starts to fall for juvia just because she killed herself for him. I've already addressed this better in another post of mine, but he didn't even decide to love her, he was just bargaining with her corpse out of misplaced guilt, and then was gaslit and manipulated into thinking these feelings of being indebted to her were feelings of love.

Also, their claims of “ha it’s canon” really do nothing for their ship. Canon≠Admirable ship, which I go through thoroughly in this post linked here.

Anyway, thank you so much for your insight, Anon. You brought up such good points! The double su*cide thing is far from romantic; it's just contrived and construed bs.

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gralunaisland · 2 years

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I feel I have to clarify a tiny something, for informative purposes. You've said before that Juvia using '-sama' on Gray makes him uncomfortable because it's like referring to a god-- I'm sorry, that's a little inaccurate. It does make him uncomfortable, I'm talking about the 'like a god' thing! Sorry if I come off as rude, it kinda bothered me :( Don't worry, your point still stands I just wanna explain more about 'sama'.

"-sama" is indeed used to address god, ("Kami-sama"). But it depends on the context for the level of superiority you're talking about here. It's kind of like the word 'dear' in English, depending on the context, it can be 'Dear Father god', or it can be a formal 'dear' for letters, or it can be a sweet 'dear' like a loving old aunt. (Of course, that is just an example, I'm not saying sama is equivalent to dear, I'm just saying that similarly, context matters.)

It is definitely a high form of respect, you also use it for your Master/Boss in a formal/more historical setting, eg you're a servant or a worker in a mansion, you refer to the Master of the House as 'Lord'. Lucy is also referred to as '-sama' by her maids in the mansion. It is very respectful, but not something as dramatic as divine/worshipping. Juvia using it is displaying a sort of idolisation. Think of it like this-- someone in Japan who is unhealthily fanatical about their favourite Kpop star/Idol/Singer would refer to them as '-sama'. Doesn't the behaviour of a fanatical Kpop stan, who gathers posters and merch of their idol, kind of resemble Juvia's ridiculously creepy room? Of course, Juvia takes things a step further by stalking Gray, and, everything else I will not mention, but at least in part, that is what her '-sama' usage is based on.

Intense idolation and adoration. Which is still not healthy or good, especially since Gray is very uncomfortable about this. He did not sign up to be one, and Juvia, must like toxic Kpop fans, projects her idea of Gray onto him, restricting his freedom in various ways.

Thank you for trying to clarify things for me! And aww don't worry, my friend, you don’t seem rude at all!

I think you might’ve misunderstood me though. I’m sorry if I wasn't clear enough in that post, but let me clarify myself now.

(If people are curious which post Anon is referring to, it's this one, the Ichiya and juvia comparison post.)

I already know that the -sama suffix isn't only used when addressing or referring to God. (I hear it a lot in anime used in many contexts). I'd tried to make that clear in my post too.

Here is the quote from my post that you're referring to in your ask: "I know they use that term when speaking to someone of muuuuch higher status than the speaker, like when they're referring to God, they say "kami-sama". Here, I said like when referring to God, as in kami-sama is merely one example of -sama's usage. I think it's a great example to show how much respect accompanies the use of this suffix, but I wasn't equivocating using it with calling someone God.

That's why I also mentioned: ""If you think about it, it's about the equivalent of this person who's unhealthily obsessed with you bowing down to you and calling you "your royal highness" or "your lordship" or "my queen/king"". I think this shows that I didn't equivocate -sama with Godhood. This is what you sort of say in your ask too, that you would "use it for your Master/Boss in a formal/more historical setting", so we're really agreeing here. Anyway, I used these examples because English doesn't really have a perfect equivalent. The closest thing to it in terms of how it's used grammatically is "sir", I guess, because we don't use suffixes like the Japanese language does. However, -sama is much more respectful than just sir or ma'am, which is why I didn’t mention it.

But I am totally with you that juvia uses -sama to express her “intense idolization and adoration”! That was basically my point when I brought it up in my post, especially that all of those feelings are unwanted by Gray, and yet she forces them onto him regardless. I’m glad you agree that what juvia is doing is wrong and that he didn’t sign up for this. I also agree with you completely, that juvia “projects her idea of Gray onto him, restricting his freedom in various ways”! I couldn’t have said it better myself!

I really appreciate you clarifying everything, especially for those who don't know that much about -sama, but I just wanted to make sure you knew what I meant in that post. Thank you again for taking your time to inform everyone!

#i guess i can be quite confusing in my posts #if im ever confusing pls lmk! ill do my best to be clearer though #i try to review my posts a lot and make it as understandable as possible #askgraluna #ask #anti gruvia #anti juvia #fairy tail #anti juvia lockser #anti juvia loxar #defend gray fullbuster #gray fullbuster #japanese #anti gray x juvia #anti gray fullbuster x juvia lockser #fairytail #fairy tail discourse #fairy tail discussion #gralunaessay

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gralunaisland · 2 years

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The Reason Why Gray Decided to “Love” juvia

(I added this to my "Veritable Essay in Response to a Pro Gr///vian Argument” post, but I’m posting it separately in case no one sees).

The apparent reason for Gray’s polarizing shift from being creeped out by juvia’s behavior to wanting to make her happy over anyone else is because juvia sacrificed her life for Gray.

But what’s the difference between her and any of his other friends who were prepared to die for him?

The answer to that question is that from the beginning, juvia has been declaring her absolute love for him.

That is the only difference. And it’s not even a good one.

He proclaims that he will take her affections seriously for once not because he suddenly likes her, but because he feels obligated, indebted, bound to return her affections; otherwise he feels like he’s disregarded her emotions unfairly somehow, like he owes her since he “hasn’t given her anything even though she’s signed her life away to him”; otherwise she threw her life away “for nothing in return”. He's essentially bargaining with her corpse out of misplaced guilt.

Let me tell you this. That’s a big no-no. Just because your stalker and abuser throws their life away for you does NOT mean you have to suddenly return their feelings. They never cared about your feelings—otherwise they wouldn’t be stalking or emotionally and physically abusing you in the first place!—so why should you care about theirs??

Think about it. Gray never said "I'll take your feelings seriously" to anyoneeee else who had sacrificed or was about to sacrifice their lives for him. The only reason he told juvia that was because she basically bargained her life away for his devotion. she already had her cards on the table, she already let Gray know what she wanted, with her open declarations of love, and all she needed was for Gray to feel compelled to throw his hat in the ring.

In other words, the reason why Gray wouldn't promise to take the feelings of someone like Ur or Ultear seriously, both ladies who also sacrificed themselves for Gray, is simply because they had never told him that they loved him and wanted him romantically.

Yes, that is very obvious, but again, think about it. Gray would never have told juvia that he would try to love her if she had never pounded it into his brain that she loved him. It is that very fact that shows how Gray doesn't love juvia because of how special she is and better than the other women who've done the same thing, it is literally only because she already let him know that she lusted after him, and that is the only reason that makes her different.

You might say, “well it’s not like that was her reasoning for killing herself! she was just being selfless!” To that I say well obviously she was being selfless because she has no sense of self outside of Gray in the first place. her life doesn’t matter to her at all, so it’s no big deal, all that matters is Gray. she doesn’t exist without Gray.

And secondly, that may have not been her goal, but if she really wanted Gray to fall in love with her organically, naturally, for her as a person and not the one thing she did for him, then she would A, not stalk and harass him and would listen to him when he says NO (consent, people! It’s important!), and B, she wouldn’t feel good about Gray returning her love just because he feels indebted to her.

But nope.

she’s just happy Gray-sama is finally not rejecting her disgusting advances.

In any event, that’s never a good start/factor of a relationship anyway, with one side madly and blindly obsessed with the other, and with the other side being in the relationship ONLY because of an overwhelming sense of guilt and debt and duty to the other.

Closing Notes:

I hope this post makes some sense. And as always, thank you for your time and have a wonderful day!

Edit: Thanks for reblogging and reading the comments, @crystallos-sol ! It means a lot that a well-known protector of Gray Fullbuster likes my post!

@absolutezerotolerance

#anti gruvia #gray fullbuster #fairy tail discourse #anti hiro mashima #anti gruvia fandom #anti juvia #anti juvia loxar #anti juvia lockser #fairy tail #defend gray fullbuster #anti gray x juvia #fairy tail discussion #gralunaessay #gruviugh #gruvia can burn #gruvia sucks

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gralunaisland · 2 years

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Is Juvia's sole purpose in life to have Gray to herself?

If that's the case, she needs serious help, and Gray needs a protection order or something to keep her away.

She made herself sick because she wasn't with Gray anymore for 6 months, but never tried to find him. That's how dependant she is towards Gray, but somehow her stans turn her around and blame him for this, even though he actually had a reason to not have any contact with her.

A scene that angers me is when Juvia tracks Gray down to Isvan. If she was truly in love with him, why wait a week before telling him about her defeating Keith? Wouldn't she try to tell him as soon as possible? I think that's the scene that made me really dislike her. I feel like she wanted to be alone with Gray so that she could be the only one at his side when he lost it. Not to mention that she kind of made it all about herself.

juvia's Selfish Sole Purpose in Life

I’m glad you asked, mon ami, because yes, yes it is.

You said it perfectly, that her sole purpose in life is to have Gray all to herself. Everything she talks about, thinks about, with very rare exceptions, is Gray Gray Gray, and even then she’s not thinking about the actual Gray or his actual feelings, just her imagined version of him and their relationship.

she never once listens to what he tells her, never notices his discomfort, and presses on even when rejected to her face because she has the delusion that he’s hers no matter what he says. “I love it when you put juvia in her place” is what she said to Gray’s rejection of her feelings, and despite agreeing that being rejected is her place, she doesn’t really comprehend the notion of being rejected and really literally couldn’t care less what Gray consents to, hence her continuous chasing after him despite his wishes.

And ofc it proves to us that juvia’s sole purpose is to have Gray in her clutches because of the scene you mentioned where she gets herself close to death because she can’t find him.

I agree wholeheartedly about the protection, though I think Gray needs more than a restraining order, because juvia would just ignore it anyway. she needs to be locked up in maximum security prison forever.

And definitely, the fact that she worried herself to sickness and dreariness perfectly showed her absence of character growth. It could’ve been an opportunity to show that juvia had gotten past her childish and downright criminal treatment of Gray, that she wasn’t so dependent and needy and parasitic. But nope, she just reverts to who she was before Gray, a worse version of the original Rain Woman because here she was sick and had no purpose and was useless.

All that was just to make the audience feel bad for her of course, and to guilt trip Gray further even though, like you said, he had a legitimate reason not to tell her (namely because she would’ve insisted on following and helping him and would’ve ended up blowing his cover).

she’s less than pathetic, because I have no sympathy for her lackluster attempts to find Gray and then to just give up on life. Goes to show how she doesn’t exist without Gray, which is extremely unhealthy and disgusting since Gray doesn’t want that.

I agree about the Isvan scene, though I’d go as far as to say she stalked him to Isvan, because that’s just how awful juvia is: to continue to violate Gray’s privacy even if it had to do with his dead parent. I think you bring up a good point, one I hadn’t really thought of before, that she could’ve told him before he went to Silver’s tomb that she was the one who beat Keyes.

Instead, she used it as emotional leverage against him. she knew she had to beat Keyes, and even Silver told her to beat Keyes, but instead juvia tried to guilt Gray by acting like she felt guilty about it, hence the manipulation, even though doing it was necessary. she wanted to tell him alone and make the whole situation about her when really, she as a person had nothing to do with it.

If anyone else was squaring up with Keyes, they’d all have to beat the demon too. But nooo, now because juvia did what had to be done, juvia doesn’t deserve to love him anymoreee. (As if she ever did!)

she definitely invalidated Gray’s grief, making it all about her feelings and her sorrow. You’re right, I’m sure she made it so he would have to rely on her; that’s why she wanted to ambush him alone, even if it were subconscious, because after guilting him somehow even though she did something good—not because she’s a good person of course—she could be the one to “support” him. I say “support” because after Gray breaks down sobbing and grasping at her on his knees, all she does is, with visibly less tears in her eyes and an obvious blush on her cheeks, tells him that he’s warm.

Yeah. she oh so clearly cares for him so so so much. -_-

I’ve personally hated her ever since she met Gray because unfortunately she’s never changed as a person and is the same awful human being that she was in the beginning, but I’m glad you started to really dislike her in that scene since it really is one of the most despicable scenes of her! Downright evil.

Thank you for the ask! And thank you for all your very astute observations!

#juvia needs to be dropkicked into the sun #every time I think about what she’s done I just hate her more and more #ugh juvia is just awful #poor gray #being manipulated into thinking she actually cares about him #anti gruvia #askgraluna #gray fullbuster #defend gray fullbuster #isvan scene #ask #anon #anti juvia #anti juvia loxar #anti juvia lockser #fairy tail #gralunaessay #anti gray fullbuster x juvia lockser #anti gray x juvia

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gralunaisland · 2 years

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Canonicity of Ships ≠ Admirability of Ships

Here’s another argument Pro-gr///vians use to either defend their ship or to put down ships that clash with their own:

“Gr///via is canon! GraLu (for example) is not, so you need to shut up. Gr////via is better because it’s canon and your ship will never be.”

This “argument” is just another weapon Pros sometimes use to invalidate other shippers. These types of shippers can never seem to just be happy with their own ship and have to make sure everyone who disagrees with them doesn’t get to like their own ship in order to feel better about themselves.

Here’s some examples, which pictures are shown below, of the people a fellow Anti friend of mine has had to deal with. (They’re not talking to me here btw, they’re messages my friend sent me pics of). It’s not even the worst I’ve seen, they’re just recent. I shall provide a rebuttal beneath said pictures.

^ For this last one, I could debunk every pseudo point they said. I might just do so on a later date.

This argument is absolutely ridiculous. I don’t think it counts as one.

I know I should justify this point, and I shall here, but honestly I don’t see the need to. It’s so surprising and disappointing to see it used by Pros. I shall explain my position anyway, even if those Pros don’t for their own, and to do that I have some questions.

Now, on to my response:

Since when did the canonicity of a ship determine the value or quality of it?? Are we going to pretend the author is always the pinnacle of goodness and the expert on healthy relationships, so whatever they decide is the best? I sure don’t.

Just because an author decides they like a ship enough to make it canon does not prove it’s a good ship, and just because an author decides to not make a ship canon doesn’t suddenly mean those characters don’t have chemistry or potential as a couple. Authors aren’t omniscient and they sure as heck don’t determine good or bad. Saying the canonicity (which basically translates to the author’s decision) determines a ship’s goodness makes the Appeal to Authority fallacy.

And since when did you have to only ship couples that are canon??? Why do you get to tell others that their ships suck and they’re pitiful and they should shut up and they don’t get to appreciate their ship just because it’s not literally penned into the media???

I’m actually baffled some Pros think they’re so much better than people who ship Gray or juvia with anyone else. Just because Mashima forced these two into one of the most toxic and unhealthy “canon” ships I’ve seen does not make you better because exactly that—it’s toxic and unhealthy. You don’t get to feel superior for supporting abuse, and you definitely don’t get to make others feel inferior for not supporting abuse and for supporting a healthier ship that harms no one.

I’m usually of the philosophy to leave people alone in their ships. If it makes them happy, then why not? Even if it’s not canon, which should be a non-factor of how good the ship is, it is a fun part of watching anime or reading manga to ship the people you like together. However, I don’t leave toxic, unhealthy, abusive, and disgusting ships alone.

Protest that it’s fiction all you want—fiction is where lots of young people learn things and fiction is where things are first normalized and introduced into society as good or fine. To ship p*dos or incest or r*pists or stalkers with their victims is just repulsive and insensitive. I could talk about this all in its own separate post, but it’s a dark and sad topic that I don’t feel going into too much detail for now.

Back to the point, if canonicity really does equal better, then you have to acknowledge that even if an author makes an immoral ship canon, (again, p*do, incest, r*pist, stalker etc.) you’ll support it wholeheartedly because the author said so.

I’ll try to summarize and re-lay out my points concisely here.

• The author is not an untouchably moral person. Using their approval of your ship by making it canon as a reason to prove it’s good does nothing, because since they’re a fallible person just like everyone else, they could’ve either accidentally or purposefully made a toxic couple. Therefore, canonicity does not prove a relationship is good.

• You can’t pretend you’re better since you ship a canon couple because the only difference between you and a person who ships a non-canon couple is the amount of moments between the characters. That literally only means you have more moments to enjoy. Does that invalidate their ship? Is that how you are going to measure the goodness of a ship, by comparing the amount of moments? What if those moments are contrived and terrible for both characters?

I think the value of a ship is how much it gives you joy, and that’s quite subjective. (Still won’t excuse evilly perverse ships as subjective though.) And even if a non-canon shipper has less moments to be excited about, it simply makes those rare moments all the more valuable and appreciated, so there’s no loss of happiness here.

Also, I mean, is this what you want to feel proud about for, to feel superior for, shipping an established couple in an anime? Woohoo? Congrats? You haven’t accomplished anything besides blindly following the author’s pen and word like a sheep, especially blindly if it’s a toxic ship. That’s not to say liking a canon couple is bad all around, it just doesn’t make you special somehow, (kinda the opposite actually because canon shippers tend to be a majority and therefore not rare or special) so stop pretending like you are and stop pretending like everyone else isn’t.

• Also you have no right to tell someone to stop shipping something else just because your ship is canon. Since when did we minority shippers have to listen to the majority shippers? Leave harmless shippers alone. It just shows how insecure you are if you have to invalidate every other ship you don’t approve of in order to feel like your ship is the best or valid.

• Lastly, I’m still not convinced Gr///via is truly canon in the main story. People keep throwing around “Gray confessed his love for juvia” and I still haven’t seen any proof. Also 100 yq, from what I’ve seen, seems more like a fever dream fanfic than canon story (very badly written not even just bc of Gr///via) and Gray doesn’t act like himself anymore. And no, it’s not because of “character development”. He’s an arguably worse character for giving in to his abuser. Their relationship is contrived and forced and basically Stockholm Syndrome. But whatever, even if it’s actually canon, then just look to this post again.

Canon does not mean the ship is loving and respectable. Shipping a canon couple doesn’t make you superior. Kindly get over yourself.

Closing Notes:

This post seems heated I guess, but it doesn’t make me happy to see some Pros bullying Antis based on stupid, mean-spirited reasoning and a false sense of superiority. Anyway, as always, please tell me what you think respectfully! I hope I was coherent enough. Please have a nice day and thank you for your time!

#stop being so pretentious just because your ship may or may not be canon gosh #anti gruvia #anti gruvia fandom #anti pro gruvia #anti pro gruvians #anti hiro mashima #anti fairy tail fandom #anti fairy tail #fairy tail discourse #fairy tail discussion #anti juvia #anti juvia loxar #anti juvia lockser #fairy tail #gralunaessay

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gralunaisland · 2 years

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Given the backstories Mashima gave his characters, he could have done something great with their development, even with juvia who is plain toxic in canon. She was apparently rejected her whole life, why not show the effects it had on her without trying to paint it as comedy ? It's a real shame because most of the characters could have been developed so well but were sacrificed to become love interests or plot devices.

FT Characters (especially juvia) Reduced to Being Love Interests or Plot Devices

You make a fantastic point, Anon!! I agree wholeheartedly.

I’m pretty sure I mentioned something related to that in one of my posts before actually, buried underneath my babble somewhere.

Anyway, juvia would be so much better as a character and way more relatable if Mashima had built her around her hardships and had her character growth come from finally opening up to people and being accepted for who she was with her rain and whatever and them bettering her. she seriously would’ve been actually likable if she hadn’t flipped her crazy switch at the first act of kindness given to her and instead took a while coming out of her shell.

Way more people would’ve been able to relate to her, because I’m sure many of us, if not most, have felt lonely or overlooked or even shunned at times. she could’ve been the bullied outcast people got to sympathize with, and she could’ve gotten the redemption and the hard-earned happy ending lots of us desire for ourselves.

But nope, the juvia we get is the most un-relatable, off-putting, toxic thing ever, which drives people away from supporting her. (Except for her fans who overlook all her bad qualities in order to like her, I guess. At that point, though, honestly, without trying to be mean, Pros— do you even like her at that point? Aren’t you in love with your ‘delusion’ or fantasy of the character and not the character herself? We may never know.)

While lots of people do feel lonely, conversely, I bet most people don’t stalk and harass and have clinically insane delusions about their crush, and yet juvia, who does all this and more, is the one we’re somehow expected to root for.

I really can’t empathize with a crazy, r*pey chick, nor do I want to.

And you’re right that there were lots of other characters that were sacrificed in the name of pleasing the shipper fandom; Gajeel and Levy are most prevalent in my mind after gr///via (and the travesty that is the death of Gray's character in 100yq).

Levy wasn’t a super interesting character to begin with; she just had two guys who were the biggest fans of her for no apparent reason, which she didn’t care about, and she didn’t seem to care about them too much, ignoring them completely when they wanted to be her partner at Tenrou for the mysterious "misunderstood" dude. Overlooking that, she was pretty nice and smart, but that was it. She could’ve definitely gotten a part of an arc dedicated to her breaking past certain barriers and expectations of her petite, waif-ish, and unassuming self, but something that only remotely resembles that only came with her mashed forced pairing with the bad boy, Gajeel.

For Gajeel, I think his redemption was rushed way too fast, and his 180 didn’t make much sense to me, but instead of really exploring his struggle with overcoming his darker nature (I mean if you watch Phantom Lord, he was a real b*stard honestly, beating up helpless Lucy for fun until she was near dead), he just turns over a new leaf with no problem at all, and everyone forgives him despite him not really apologizing to most of them. And then he somehow fell for the uninteresting bookworm whom he’d beaten up and strung to a tree before… idk, Mashima relied too much on the good, book girl and bad boy cliche in hopes of creating a popular pair.

People should be more than merely a cliche or a plot device or romantic interest, because when your identity is solely rooted in loving another person, as I've said before, you cease to exist. You have no personality trait or motivator without your dependency on an outside factor, and that's undoubtedly unhealthy for all parties involved.

Anyway, thank you very much for your ask! Sorry it took a lil while to respond. I loved your observations and points!

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gralunaisland · 2 years

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if you were writing fairy tail how would you go about developing Graylu as an endgame couple?

Endgame GraLu

Thank you so much for asking! I think I talked about that a little already if you want to check out my other #gralu posts on my blog, but as for how I would develop them? That's a good, hard question. I feel like my answer might not be satisfying, but I’ll give it a shot! This won’t really be as fluffy or fanfic-y as my other posts, just me kinda spitballing about it.

After they started dating, (here's a mini fic about how I might write that and how their relationship might look like in this post, I highly suggest you read that and this post about why like GraLu for a full understanding of why/how they’d work as an endgame couple), I would have Lucy and Gray finally confront juvia and the guild for their mistreatment of Gray. All that gaslighting by their guild-mates and juvia's incessant slobbering over him--yeah that's gotta end first and foremost. Lucy certainly wouldn’t accept it, and would stand up to everyone on his behalf. Gray would draw from her impetuous strength and would also finally put his foot down and not humor juvia any more.

I'd want them to have the time to develop more of a relationship: going on quests and jobs alone together, exploring the world, just hanging out, learning how to synchronize their magic etc. They basically would need more one-on-one time, which they would enjoy immensely no matter what they did, but since they both love their guild so much, they wouldn't leave the guild and would still spend a lot of time with Fairy Tail. I think they’d still go on tons of adventures with Team Natsu because they are Team Natsu. UNLIKE SOMEONE, they can have lives outside of their romance.

Lots of people would definitely tease them about it, from Happy to Mira to Erza to basically everyone (I’d imagine Natsu would be a mite jealous so he wouldn’t), but they all would agree that each completes the other.

I don’t think the two of them would act that lovey-dovey in public ie in front of Fairy Tail members. It’s not so much that they’re too embarrassed—though Lucy definitely gets embarrassed by all the teasing and constantly has to tell people to shut it—it’s more because when they’re with the guild, they like to enjoy the community and wouldn’t want to act like they’re excluding others or in their own world. Their friends are their family after all. Dating wouldn’t change that.

juvia would have a hard time accepting this as you’d imagine, might even try to kill the two of them as she’s shown to be capable of attempting several times before, and might just in the end up and leave the guild (if she isn’t expelled because of her trying to hurt Gray and Lucy), plotting vengeance one way or another. Lucy would be relieved just for Gray’s sake; she’s not the jealous type after all. Gray would be relieved for his own sake too haha, might feel bad for her though because he’s a big softie sometimes, but Lucy grounds him well, affirming him and letting him know he’s safer now.

Anyway, if I was the author, I’d just make more sweet moments between them. I think they already have the perfect basis for a relationship, being best friends who can joke and be themselves with each other, so barely anything would have to change, just the amount of moments really.

In the manga I’m not sure I’d go as far as to show how they get married, though I’d definitely want them to be eventually. If I did though, I think it would be really cute if they had the wedding in the cold mountains of Gray’s hometown to honor Ur and his parents who couldn’t be there. This would’ve been Lucy’s idea. They would have ways of keeping the guests warm through magic I’m sure. Lucy would have a custom made winter wedding dress, and Gray would wear a black suit (going naked is going a bit too far in honoring Ur haha). Everyone from Fairy Tail and the guilds that they both have friends in would come, and there’d be lots of tears. Aquarius would find a way to be there despite her broken key, huffing and saying it was about time Lucy got married, but also crying nonstop. It’d be funny if during their first dance, Gray danced like he did in the Eclipse Celestial Spirit arc with Cancer, but maybe that’s too comedic haha.

After the reception, I think Gray and Lucy would honeymoon by traveling all over the country and beyond. They would first make sure to visit the graves of Layla and Jude, and then to Isvan to Silver’s to pay their respects, but then the sky’s the limit on their honeymoon adventure.

Idk how much time one could spend on that since there are other characters and storylines to be written, so that might be it for that lil arc.

Both of them definitely want to have kids. Gray wants to be the father he lost so young. He doesn’t want his children to feel as helpless as he did, and wants to protect them like Ur protected him. Lucy also wants to be the mother she lost so young, being just like Layla and teaching her children to be kind no matter what. She really appreciates it how she doesn’t have to worry about Gray becoming like her father, and yet she would only tell her kids about all the good things Jude did.

They wouldn’t have children super soon—they’re only teens in the anime anyway—and I’m sure they’d have lots of work to do saving the world time and again, but when they did, while still in their prime ofc, I’d want to break the trope of having one boy and one girl, so I think I’d have them have both boys and maybe they’d be twins. They might name them Urek and Layland to honor Ur and Layla (yes yes lots of honoring their parents/parent figures but they were really important to these two you know?) One would have Gray’s eye shape and the other something more similar to Lucy’s but not quite bc her eyes are too big for an anime dude, but maybe both of their eyes are a deep brown, and one had blonde and the other had black hair. (Maybe I’ll try to draw these two!)

I feel like this was a really brain dead post of mine, but I tried spurring my sleepy brain to put something down, so please forgive the randomness of it TvT Please send another ask if you’re not satisfied and wanted something specific!

#now I wanna draw gray’s and lucy’s kids though 0.0 #askgraluna #anti gruvia #ask #gray fullbuster #anon #gralu #graylu #defend gray fullbuster #anti juvia #anti juvia loxar #anti juvia lockser #fairy tail #gray x lucy #gray fullbuster x lucy heartfilia #gralunaessay #lucy heartfilia #defend lucy heartfilia

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gralunaisland · 2 years

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tbh as much as I like graylu I think a version of fairy tail where there's no ships would be much better. Gray & Lucy have great chemistry don't get me wrong but I think any romantic relationship would take focus away from the importance of the guild and the theme of family.

Fairy Tail Doesn’t Need Romance

I completely and totally agree!

Because really, in the end, I’m fine with headcanoning everything from just seeing Gray’s and Lucy’s interactions, and I’m fine with them only ever being friends canonically for the exact reason you have, Anon. That way, they’re not changing into worse characters just to be together.

I think most people are like that. I mean, look at other fandoms like BNHA or JJK, where most if not all of the major ships are completely non-canon but are beloved anyway! It doesn't have to be canon to be appreciated and supported. u_u This way, fans can also have more fun by having to be on the lookout for moments of chemistry between characters rather than being spoonfed the canon relationship moments by the author.

About Fairy Tail, the characters’ individualities and independent agencies depend on Mashima keeping them separate beings apart from their ship, but he unfortunately didn’t do that and made the people in his canon ships turn into mirrors of each other, effectively eradicating their original character.

I wholeheartedly agree that Fairy Tail would’ve been so much better off with just staying focused on its true theme of friendship and family. It can be very refreshing to focus on the platonic relationships that are actually the majority of all human relationships. It's a very good moral of the story too, to treat everyone as friends and family in the way that you don't let them get away with bad things and are always there for them, even if you don't have the extra motivator of romantic feelings to do so.

Thank you so much for sending this ask, Anon. You addressed something that really needed to be said!

#friendship and family yall it's important #shouldn't let romance change your entire character #still love gralu qwq #but i definitely never needed to see it be canon #the fact that gruvia is though is just a travesty #askgraluna #ask #anti gruvia #anti juvia #anti juvia lockser #anti juvia loxar #fairy tail #anon #gralu #graylu #anime ships #romance in anime #gralunaessay

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gralunaisland · 2 years

Text

A Veritable Essay in Response to a Pro Gr///uvian Argument

Because I hate myself and love bashing gr///via, I forced myself to look up “why gruvia is a good ship” (heretical, I know) to find some points made by pro-gr//vians on why they think it’s a good ship, because I sure can’t think of any on my own. This is a post I’ve happened upon, posted below for your viewing displeasure. I shall attempt to dissect each point in this person’s post below the picture.

Here goes nothing.

However, fair warning, this is a doozy. You might need a break during this read because of its length. I'd hope people could finish though so I can see what y'all think!

The "forced anime relationship/ not real life” point

- So this point.

Does Anon (anonymous poster) not realize that a “forced relationship” doesn’t mean that Mashima had a gun put up to his head to force him to write gr//uviugly as canon, it means that the relationship is a product of poor writing?

I don’t know how many times I can rehash just how poor this ship has been written, but I shall do it as many times as I need to I suppose.

Here we go, a lightning round:

Obsession and idolatry are not healthy to either partner. juvia is selfish and insane. Stalking and gaslighting should NOT be fetishized. Gray’s wishes are ignored. What they have is not true love since it's the product of gaslighting, manipulation, abuse, and ego.

Those are only a fraction of the reasons why it’s a disgusting ship, but I shall leave it as that for now because we have lots to talk about. All these reasons (and more) are why this ship is the product of poor writing and therefore is a forced relationship.

All throughout the anime (which I shall use for reference because I never read the manga) Gray shows disgust for juvia, at the very least for her actions. Any hint of affection he displays for her is merely because she’s a fellow member of Fairy Tail, and therefore he treats her accordingly. However, he displays the discomfort he feels from her actions clearly, freaking out every time she gets in his personal space and even going so far as to call her “CREEPY” during the Grand Magic Games. I don’t have the brain capacity to provide all the times he rejects her right now, but if you don’t believe there are many, I believe you and I watched different shows because 80% of their interactions from the beginning were with her lusting over him and him cringing.

All this to say, this is the norm for almost the entirety of the show.

(It should be noted that I have only watched up to after the disbandment of the guild and a few episodes of the last season, the Avatar arc, anyway, and that was enough to see the part about the juvia and Gray sharing a house. I do know, however, about the gr///uviugh garbage that takes place in the 100 Years Quest, and I remember hearing some about Gray and juvia being in a situation where they have to kill the other that results in juvia having a scar.)

Anyway, all the affection that Gray gets for juvia is super rushed and out of the blue after the Tartarous arc. she had done nothing out of the ordinary for Gray.

Risked her life to save his? As if Erza and Natsu and many other people haven’t done that already.

Always been there for him? Well, that is literally the creed of the Fairy Tail family, although unlike them, she has dirty motives for doing so.

All this to say again, the huge switch from being grossed out by her to becoming affectionate is insanely sudden and jarring. Any relationship written like that is poor writing, to have it one way the whole time and then to flip it on its head out of the blue.

And of course the apparent reason for this polarized shift is because juvia sacrificed her life for Gray, as I’ve said. But what’s the difference between her and any of his other friends being prepared to die for him?

It’s that from the beginning, juvia has been declaring her absolute love for him.

That is the only difference.

He proclaims that he will take her affections seriously for once not because he suddenly likes her, but because he feels obligated, indebted, bound to return her affections because otherwise he feels like he’s disregarded her emotions, like he owes her since he “hasn’t given her anything in return even though she’s signed her life away to him”.

Otherwise, in Gray's manipulated, traumatized mind, she threw her life away “for nothing in return”. Think about it. Gray never said "I'll take your feelings seriously" to anyoneeee else who had sacrificed or was about to sacrifice their lives for him. The only reason he told juvia that was because she had basically bargained her life away for his devotion. she already had her cards on the table- she already let Gray know what she wanted- with her open declarations of love, and all she needed was for Gray to feel compelled to throw his hat in the ring.

Yes, that is very obvious, but again, think about it. Gray would never have told juvia that he would try to love her if she had never pounded it into his brain that she loved him. It is that very fact that shows how Gray doesn't love juvia because of how special she is and how much better she is than the other women who've done the same thing, it is literally only because she already let him know that she lusted after him, and that is the only reason that makes her different.

You might say, “well it’s not like that was her reasoning for killing herself! she was just being selfless!”

To that I say well obviously she was being selfless because she has no sense of self outside of Gray in the first place. her life doesn’t matter to her so it’s no big deal, all that matters is Gray. she doesn’t exist without Gray.

And secondly, that may have not been her conscious goal, but if she had really wanted Gray to fall in love with her organically, naturally, for her as a person and not because of the one thing she did for him, then she would A, not stalk and harass him and would listen to him when he says NO (consent, people! It’s important!), and B, she wouldn’t feel good about Gray returning her love just because he feels indebted to her.

But nope.

she’s just happy Gray-sama is finally not rejecting her disgusting advances anymore.

In any case, that’s never a good start/factor of a relationship anyway, with one side madly and blindly obsessed with the other and with the other side being in the relationship ONLY because of an overwhelming sense of guilt and debt and duty to the other.

- I know this was supposed to be tacked on with the first question, but like what even is this, “it’s anime, not real life”.

Well... obviously???

Who said just because it’s anime and therefore not real life (again, isn’t that obvious?) it gets a pass at being poorly written and just plain terrible? (That doesn't even make sense- there's no script for real life anyway!) Those of us who actually appreciate character depth and chemistry would certainly not give it a pass.

Now, whether you support NaLu or not, I shall use an aspect of it as an example. Their ship has at least some character depth because Natsu has saved Lucy many times, especially that first time when she was almost kidnapped in the first episode, and he introduced her to the guild of her dreams and, most importantly, to the family she loves today. Of course he would be important to her. From the beginning, Natsu was special to Lucy, but the most important thing to note is that it wasn't romantic from the get-go. He annoys and exasperates her all the time, and she initially just viewed him as a weirdo. As for Natsu’s feelings for Lucy, he instantly clicks with her like any other person in FT, but it’s only after Natsu witnesses more of Lucy’s love for FT and its members does he start to treat her a little bit differently. Love for friends is of utmost importance to him, so it makes sense that he’d notice her in his dense way because she loves FT more than many. With him, it’s hard to tell when he’s acting differently because he’s so friendly with everyone, but an example is him acting bummed during that Rainbow Cherry Blossom festival. If he thought of everyone as equal in importance, he wouldn’t really mind one person not being there and would soon forget himself in the merriment. Obviously, we know that’s not what happens.

With all this, we see at least some development and depth. The chemistry is easy to see as well because they’re always bickering good-naturally or palling around with Happy tagging along. Honestly, Natsu's side could definitely use some more growth in terms of the ship because Natsu still doesn't treat her all that much different from other people from what I've seen, but my point is that there's a least some development in leading up to the ship. ALL THIS TO SAY (sorry for saying that so often), NaLu is an example of, while far from perfect, at least a start to a non-forced relationship.

In anime, no less. -__-

See, no excuses for poor writing. It doesn’t have to be a true story to be a good one. Before anything, they’re best buds, and I think that is the key point to this.

They did not start off as romantically inclined.

Aside from like all of 10 minutes after juvia initially met Gray, she has obsessed romantically over him for the whole time she's known Gray. juvia literally cannot be more obsessed with him, and that means there was no room for romantic development except from one side, i.e. Gray's. He could do no wrong in her eyes, and she needed to have him all to herself. Just because he was kind to her once, she believed she owned him.

Those are all major red flags.

Some might protest that it was simply love at first sight, even though none of that sounds like love, and is in fact not love, but even if it was love at first sight, in terms of a relationship, it's still not a good beginning. she "loved" him for having basic human decency and even swooned for him just from looking at him, so it was all surface level attraction anyway. We don't get to see any natural development of feelings and loyalty between the two because one is already there and has always been there, and the other has to be pressured there because, again, the other one is already there. There isn't any organic falling in love from either side.

The “blame it on the storyline etc.” point

- I don’t think Anon realizes that that’s what anti-gruvians are doing essentially. It’s really what any person who has a problem with any piece of fiction that someone makes is doing…

Yes, we hate the character juvia and her interactions with Gray, but it’s not like she’s a real person.

We realize this because we’re not insane.

Mashima is obviously the true culprit regarding her bad character, but I mean... We can claim that in one sentence with no real meaning.

“I blame Mashima for writing juvia as a bad character."

Okaaay, then how is she portrayed as a bad character?

“Well, she’s a stalker and an abuser etc. etc.”

Even though it was the author’s will that made a character the way they are, which is how it works, by the way, we still have to scrutinize that character’s actions as if they had their own agency in order to properly judge a character’s goodness/quality.

Okay, anon, we blame it on the storyline, on the author. Does that mean she’s free of critiques, that we cannot dislike her as a character?

Nope, because if you believe that, no one can have opinions on anything people write, because just as there are reasons why we dislike characters, there are also reasons why we like characters. No one asks “does the fact that Mashima is the one making juvia act the way she does mean we cannot like her?”, and you certainly wouldn’t say “I blame Mashima for making juvia likeable”. It adds nothing to the conversation to shift the blame to the author. It doesn’t make juvia any more likeable because guess what, she’s still the same character no matter if we blame her or Mashima, and therefore she’s still unlikeable. I feel like I could've articulated this better but it's 2 AM, so if anyone is confused, just send an ask or comment.

The "juvia is a perfect character” point

- I kinda hate that these words have to be uttered on my page. It is no exaggeration that she is the single most hated anime character I’ve ever watched in my life. ANYWAY. Saying that juvia has had the most character development out of any of the FT characters is such an astonishing thing to say. Sure, she goes from doom and gloom to cheery and obsessing over Gray, but rather than that being character development, it was really just a plain 180. Nothing developed, it was just poof, juvia's crazy about Gray.

Gray did nothing and said nothing to her in their first fight than what a decent person would do, though to be fair, her whole life hadn’t been filled with decent people. Even if he was the first one to be kind to her, the fact that she threw everything away to turn into one giggly stalking obsessive fan-girl for Gray is insanely creepy and concerning and cannot be described as good character development.

It took the span of, what, 2 episodes, for her to change?

she has had some nice moments, like where she opens her heart to Lucy in the Tower of Heaven, or when she saves Cana by sacrificing herself in the Battle for FT (both of which I have problems with anyway), but she is the opposite of consistent with those instances. Instances of her being a good, kind member of FT to people other than Gray are few and far, far between. A few instances of her being ridiculous and unkind just off the top of my head are her trying to drown Lucy by making her air bubble smaller, her wishing harm on her fellow Grand Magic Games FT people so she could fight alongside Gray, her lying to her guildmates that she’s worried and wants to go find Wendy on Tenrou Island when she really just wants to find Gray, her throwing the Grand Magic Games (even though it’s extremely important to all the other members to make amends for all the humiliation and grief the FT members who didn’t get the 7 year skip had to go through with losing all their best members) because she’s too obsessed w Gray, and how about her deliberately ignoring Gray’s rejection at the Ball in the palace.

she looks like a pretty stuck, one-track-minded character to me. she only joined FT because of Gray after all, and although she’s sometimes nice, she would obviously follow Gray wherever he went, even if that meant leaving FT. Unlike Lucy, who searched endlessly for her former guildmates after the guild disbanded, juvia merely followed Gray off and had the time of her life barging into his house and living with him. she didn’t care at all that the guild had disbanded, so long as she had Gray.

That brings me to next part about how she’s apparently “had the most character growth”. My next point is a great point made in an @absolutezerotolerance post, but basically they posted a picture of juvia when we are first introduced to the she-devil, as the Rain-Woman (who was so much better than the fan-girl juvia we unfortunately are stuck with) and a picture of juvia in the rain after being abandoned by Gray after the disbanding of the guild. Same girl, surrounded by rain and gloom, practically dead to the world, and being in a self-induced sickness no less. she remains near dead until being reunited w Gray.

Now tell me.

If a character only experiences character growth after attaching themselves to another character, and more than that, if you take that attached character away, they revert to their old self (and an even worse form of their old self on top of that), would ANYONE call that character development???

NO!

Development is when the character develops for themselves. That is not to say another person cannot help you grow, but to be so dependent on them to maintain your development means you have not developed and are just leeching off that person. This type of person changes only for that person, not because it’s good for you or that person or anyone else, and they have therefore not grown at all.

What's more, her so-called “growth” isn’t growth at all, it’s just different because she’s not a better person after turning into Gray’s groupie. she’s just now suddenly intrusive and insane and manipulative when before she'd just been depressed and depressing.

The "Natsu's had the same personality throughout the anime" point

- If you’re trying to prove juvia’s growth just by putting other characters down, that’s not much of an argument. This, however, might be indirectly Anon's best point. I will admit, like they said, Natsu’s character development isn’t that great. I think that's a product of the nature of his role in the story though. He’s kind of already your standard perfect MC. His ideals are steadfast, he’s fiercely loyal, and he will do anything to protect his friends.

I will agree with Anon that his “personality” stayed the same, though I think when they said that, they revealed that by character growth, they just meant personality change, which juvia did most definitely. Personality does not equal character growth however, especially when your personality takes a turn for the worse. To do such a 180 as she did so easily and quickly just shows she had no solid character to begin with.

Anyway, in regards to Natsu’s development, I’ll say a big thing he has over juvia is that he’s already a good person, someone who will beat sense into you if you’re wrong like with Jellal, and someone who will not kill an innocent man just because of what he might do in the future like with Rogue. juvia is just generally not a “good person” nor “selfless” unless it has to do with Gray (and even then, her “goodness” and “selflessness” is EXTREMELY debatable). That is not consistent character, nor is it commendable.

For Lucy, I think she discovered what it meant to love others, considering that fact that after her mom died, she didn’t have much love given to her. While mostly silly at first, she became to realize the true bond of friendship, well-displayed in the Phantom Lord arc. She learned she was not alone and could rely on others. She sacrifices her body and pride to save Bisca’s little daughter, a girl that Lucy isn’t super familiar with like she is with her team, in the GMG against Flair.

juvia would definitely do that kind of thing... if it were for Gray. juvia did do it once for Cana, but after Tenrou, she became one-track minded again. Also, I have problems with that Cana sacrifice thing for several reasons, but this is long enough as it is. (If you want to learn why, I made a post about it here.)

As a general note, I will say I don’t think Mashima does well with character development. I think Erza’s had some great strides at least once with the whole armor thing. After that, the "no armor" thing has just basically been her go-to OP mode which doesn't make much sense. Gajeel is definitely fighting for good now, as well as many enemies in Fairy Tail's world. But a lot of the characters seem a bit stagnant to some degree. With juvia however, I will say that I just don’t think she’s really changed, and her personality change isn’t even a good thing.

- Continuing on, about the "comparing to juvia" section of the point, I feel like Anon accidentally proved us right about gr///via.

Yes, you're right, Anon, juvia had been in Phantom Lord for a while, and then she went on to try to join Fairy Tail for the sole reason of her "sense of attraction" to Gray.

I really don't see your point.

Is that supposed to show any kind of character development on her part? Anon does realize that this switching of guilds is actually on par with her almost nonexistent character, right? she joined Phantom Lord ONLY because they were the first to act like they wanted her, so she would do anything for them blindly, disregarding the fact that her guild was hurting another guild for no reason besides jealousy, rivalry, and greed, not to mention almost killing all of them with the Jupiter cannon (and especially Makarov with the magic-sucky-suck move), and trying to kidnap a girl.

Just goes to show how blindly she'll follow anyone who shows her an inkling of kindness back in her early days (because subsequently, people are kind to her like Lucy, and yet she treats them like dirt because of her delusion that she owns Gray).

Then Gray was nice to her, and she imprinted on him harder than a baby chicken. That being her sole reason to join Fairy Tail shows that she didn't suddenly get a change of heart to try to make amends and become a good person, like a good plot development of her character would be, she actually just joined, disregarding the bad things she did to Fairy Tail, dumping her old guild mates except Gajeel as an after thought, because of her addiction to all things "Gray-sama".

Are we supposed to pretend like that's a good thing? A good thing for Fairy Tail? Or a good thing in terms of character growth? It really was neither. Something I hadn't thought of before is that although juvia was the reason Lucy got kidnapped, literally drowned her until she passed out, instead of trying to make amends with Lucy, even do so little as to apologize, she harasses her whenever she's in Gray's presence. The mean-spiritedness of that just shocks me.

How awful of a person do you have to be to be an absolute a-hole over a delusional romantic interest to someone you hurt so badly?

[This reminds me of Kazutora in Tokyo Revengers. (Spoiler warning!) He killed Shinichiro, Mikey's brother, while trying to steal a bike for him, and in order to make it make sense, he lost his mind and blamed Mikey for his own actions, when he was the one who was wronged by Kazutora and lost his fricking brother. Yes, Kazutora tries to redeem himself, and I can sort of understand it since it was clear that he was mentally unstable and unwell, but even so, during that period, I hated Kazutora. He did the same exact disgustingly toxic thing juvia does: create a victim and then blame and harass that victim.

And yet unlike Kazutora, juvia never completely comes out of her stupor. she never begs Lucy or Fairy Tail, or most importantly of all, Gray for forgiveness. she never acknowledges that what she does is utterly immoral and wrong. And that makes her infinitely worse.]

And yet Anon has the gall to use the only defense pro-gr///vians have addressing her terrible treatment of other women in Fairy Tail, that "it's only comedy".

Of course, thanks to the nature of comedy, this seems like an impenetrable defense since comedy is subjective. All they have to do is claim they find it funny, and therefore they are justified in liking the way she treats women whom she views as romantic rivals. While the subjectivity of comedy may be true, I believe there exists humor that just shouldn't be found funny on a moral standpoint. I'd rather not give examples because then it can get very dark, but if you imagine the worst things that happen on this Earth, there are plenty of things that no one should make light of.

Continuing to elaborate on why I personally don't think her actions are joke-material, I firstly want to say I have never found her fits of fury and passion funny. Even before I shipped Gray with someone else, even when I was a 12-year-old watching this show for the first time almost a decade ago, juvia's disgusting behavior perturbed me to no end. I hated seeing her on-screen at all. Seeing her hate Lucy rubbed me the wrong way- Lucy, who is just genuinely trying to be everyone's friend in the guild, considering how she considers them her family, maybe more than most of them do. Fairy Tail is her life, and for juvia to join it just for Gray and to hate Lucy just because Gray had the audacity to say he'd die to save Lucy from her clutches, when he owed nothing to juvia because they had literally just met, the attraction was one-sided, and they were MOST CERTAINLY not dating.

I mean, look at juvia's level of maturity when Gray said that in the Phantom Lord arc. she was allll prepared to step aside, abandon her guild's goals just because "ice boy hawt" and decidedly not because she was trying to do the right thing, but as soon as Gray shows his passion for protecting his guild mates, she freaks, yelling that Lucy, whom she's never really met before besides the time she KIDNAPPED HER, "cannot be allowed to live", and then proceeds to try to boil Gray alive.

I am struggling to see how that's funny.

That's just immaturity and insanity, and I would say downright evil. Lucy had done nothing to juvia, yet she was prepared to kill both Gray and Lucy even though her guild was the one that was in the wrong in the first place.

It is insulting to say that juvia is still a good person even after doing those kinds of things "for comedy's sake". Regardless if it is over-the-top to make it funny to some people, they are still actions she took very seriously. I find no fault in judging her on those actions as if she meant them, because she does. Never once does she laugh it off whenever she called Lucy a blonde bimbo or said she'd kill her, or when she suspected Lisanna for going after Gray when she offered to help her in the S Class Trials etc. etc., nor does anyone else laugh it off. The receiving end or the onlookers of the harassment are always uncomfortable and put off by her behavior. (Yet of course they somehow still all support juvia in her manic quest for "Gray-sama's" affection. I don't know, man, what can I say? Terrible writing and absolutely despicable behavior by Gray’s guild mates.)

- However, I shall say this on the "it's just comedy" front that so many pro-gr///viughs protest about juvia's overexaggerated obsession with Gray. Just like how I don't find Mest/Doranbolt's pedophilic tendencies/implications towards Wendy funny or cute in the slightest, so also do I not find someone who stalks, who creeps, who lashes out at innocent people, who creates out-of-character delusions of you, who creates a loofa made of your face and uses that same loofa to wash her privates and finds pleasure in it, who forcefully intrudes and lives with you while also trying to sleep with you in your own bed even though you say no, who gaslights, who manipulates, who doesn't take no for an answer, who doesn't ask for consent to touch you and say sexual or romantic things you don't want to hear, who assumes she owns you when nothing you've done suggested that you wanted that and in fact told her the opposite, to be funny in the slightest.

The fact that she's a woman makes many people find it harmless and comical, but as many before me have said, switch the genders and people would label a male juvia as a filthy pervert who doesn't respect a woman's consent. Why is she not viewed as a filthy pervert who doesn't respect a man's consent? That is literally what she is, and I am still to this day unsure how people find that perverse and r*pey behavior humorful... But I suppose there's no helping that if you truly do find it that way I suppose.

The "hating juvia bc she's obsessed with Gray and give me input on Lucy" point

- With this point, I was almost at a loss for words. Not because Anon had stumped me, but because of the ridiculousness of the argument.

Why can't pro-gr//vians just give a darn argument for their ship without putting other characters WHO ARE NOT RELATED TO THE SHIP down?? That doesn't make your argument stronger, it makes it more easily destroyed. Instead of providing a rebuttal for why juvia's obsession with Gray is a bad thing, Anon proceeded to COMPLETELY DUCK AROUND THE POINT and attack Lucy?? Even if you don't like Lucy, that leap in logic makes no sense.

You can just ask yourself:

"Okay, so I don't like Lucy, but what does that have to do with gr///via??"

(Personally I like Lucy, but it changes nothing whether you do or not because she is just not related to the argument for gr///uviugh at all.)

The answer to that question is it has nothing to do with that ship whatsoever. Anon just started hating on Lucy for crying a lot over the course of the show for no good reason. Not only that, Anon exaggerated their hyperbole to "she cries every episode" and "ngl 99% of the show was her crying".

I'm sorry, I think you are completely out of line with that comment, not because I'm a fan of Lucy, but because that statement is ONE, verifiably untrue (do I even need to prove that? Like seriously, she was not crying every single episode and no, Fairy Tail wasn't 99% Lucy crying and 1% gr///uviugh. Who would watch that?), and TWO, does nothing to prove why juvia's obsession is a "good thing."

Plus, crying harms no one. Even if you find it kind of annoying to see a lot, are you going to fault someone who cries at truly sad moments? She's never crying for no reason. Plus, almost every main character has cried at least several times in the manga. It just gives the situations our heroes find themselves in depth and meaning.

Anyway, crying shows Lucy cares that much about her guildmates, who were her family when her own family crumbled; crying shows how deep and expansive her heart is for others. She empathizes and loves deeply, and to say that's a bad thing is quite heartless. But see, where her crying harms no one, (crying is not abuse, and I have no idea how Anon is claiming someone's crying to be on par with someone's stalking), juvia's obsession harms Gray quite deeply. Again, no consent and no regard for his feelings, plus all the manipulation she enacts on him to make him think he loves her.

juvia's distrust of all women also harms her relationship with them, and the fact that her bullying did nothing to harm her relations w the guild is another example of Mashima's poor writing. her obsession harms herself, as she brings herself to the point of death from sickness when Gray disappears. So much harm. Again, this particular "point" made by anon just might be the worst one they have made here.

The "I'm in the mood to drop this" statement

- I am not surprised at all that you are, because you have made no good argument for the ship. I applaud the effort, however.

The "I hated the anime but watched it bc of juvia's personality and therefore I am biased" point

- I have no qualms w you wanting to watch an anime for just one character. I am glad you acknowledge that you are biased. MY PROBLEM IS is that while you say this, you still have said nothing to back up why her personality is good in the first place. You can't just say "sometimes people just favor one character over the other and that's normal" in the context of an argument, as that is not an argument for why she is likable.

Yes, in the end, I am not trying to convince this person to hate juvia. We all have opinions that are very hard to change. However, I am picking apart her character bit by bit to show why I do not think she is likable, and Anon is there trying to defend why she's likable and the best character by putting down other characters, by saying "I like her personality" when Anon would have to further clarify what about her personality is likeable, by saying she has more character growth than others when that is objectively false whether you like her or not, and by saying "I just like her more and that's normal".

The entire post made by Anon is a non-argument.

The "I don't see why you have to make a thread bashing a character" point

- Just like how you are able to make a whole post defending a character, so can people make posts bashing a character. It goes both ways, Anon. Since we are all entitled to our opinions, it's just something we can do. If we are frustrated with a character, why not rant about it on the internet? You say "you could make a thread bashing Lucy, but you don't because you're not childish", but seriously, Anon. Half your argument in response to why juvia's obsession is a bad thing is that Lucy sucks, so I have no idea why you think bashing a character is childish.

You are literally as childish if you really think ranting on a character is childish, according to your own definition of childish, Anon.

Just like how you love juvia so much and are allowed to expound on her good attributes (*cough cough* there are none) on the internet, so too can someone hate on her just as much. The internet is and has never been a place where you can only say positive things about people or things. If it were, it would be a place even more filled with lies because not everything has good sides to it.

Other people on the internet owe you nothing. They don't have to hide their opinions just because you love a character. Don't believe the world revolves around your opinions, and especially don't think you're somehow above it all when you literally kept bashing a character yourself. (By the way, I do not find bashing a character to be childish, nor do I find praising a character to be childish.)

Have some self-awareness.

Disclaimer

Yes, in the end, who really cares whom you like? It's all fictional characters, (although I believe popular media affects real life) and this argument was more for fun than any real attempt at changing people's minds. No essay on Tumblr will probably ever change a pro-gr//uviuggo's mind, and that's okay. We'll all live. Won't stop me from bashing her though >:3

Closing Notes:

Well, I think I have covered every base. I hope this all made sense. To be honest, I was planning on cutting this up into several posts considering how behemoth this post is, but then I thought people might not see my response to every point given so I just left it as one mega-post. I am sorry for the length; I hope some of y'all survived.

If any of you think I made a bad point, have any questions, or if you would like me to go more in depth on anything, please feel free to comment or send me an ask. I have my asks on so I hope that is working; like I said before on my blog, I am very new to Tumblr. Thank you for your time! Have a wonderful day.

#anti gruvia #natsu dragneel #lucy heartfilia #gray fullbuster #gray deserves better #pro-gray fullbuster #ft #defend gray fullbuster #defend Lucy heartfilia #fairy tail discourse #anti juvia #anti juvia loxar #anti juvia lockser #fairy tail #anti gray x juvia #gralunaessay #gruviugh #gruvia can burn #gruvia sucks

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