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jeannereames · 2 months

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Alexander’s relationship with Philip seemed affectionate but competitive. What kind of father do you think he (Alexander) would have been to any children of his? Did he really intend to marry any of them to Hephaistion's potential children?

I’ve got a couple prior asks that address this question (except the last), in case you haven’t already found them. Then I’ll discuss the kid thing:

How do you think Philip may have felt about Alexander? Review of the evidence for why the supposed conflict between father and son is overblown, at least until the last year. “Affectionate but competitive” is, indeed, more accurate (and the asker may already have read this one).

What sort of father would Alexander have been? Also addresses the question of Alexander IV.

Philippos, Amyntor, and Fathering in Dancing with the Lion. While this addresses the novels, in particular, it also gets at what I think were some of (the real) Philip’s shortcomings as a father (and how I created Amyntor to be his foil).

Bonus! Not a question asked, but it might be a follow-up question….

Why did Alexander take so long to father an heir? A common question/criticism of Alexander’s apparent lack of concern for continuing his own dynasty. Tries to take the 20/20 hindsight out of the equation and adds some (early) political considerations as to why he didn’t marry sooner.

Now, as to the bit about Alexander and Hephaistion’s hypothetical children marrying…. Our ancient sources specifically say that Alexander married Hephaistion to Drypetis, the younger sister of his own bride Statiera,* so their children would be cousins. Those sources do not say he planned to marry any of those cousins to each other. Sure, cousin-marriage was fairly common among the upper classes. BUT.

A son, especially one intended to be heir, would need to make political marriages. The daughter of his father’s most loyal retainer does not count. Ha. (Something Kleopatra bemoans in DwtL: Rise, that Amyntor’s loyalty is not in question, so Philip would never in a million years give her to Hephaistion.)

Couldn’t a daughter of Hephaistion be an “extra” bride, as both Persia and Macedonia practiced royal polygamy? Perhaps. But the heir would need to make several of these political marriages, and to be “just another wife” could be awkward and potentially insulting to her honor (timē) and, thus, to Hephaistion’s. She might get Alexander’s second son, but he’s still the “spare,” so a third son is more likely.

Also, Hephaistion could need to marry off a daughter to create diplomatic ties for himself. His status would be extremely high (if not Alexander/King of Asia-high). So, his second (or third) daughter and a third son of Alexander would be the most likely pairing. (Assuming they each had that many kids.)

Why couldn’t Hephaistion’s son get a daughter of Alexander? Because daughters (and sisters) were alliance commodities.** Alexander would want to keep his unmarried. If Alexander had wanted a sentimentality betrothal, it would likely be a spare daughter of Hephaistion’s to a spare son of his.

I’ve seen some folks comment that Alexander and Hephaistion married the two sisters as a marriage by proxy for themselves, the cousin-offspring as close as they could get to having children together.

This is (semi-)modern thinking. Unquestionably, Alexander’s affection for Hephaistion is the reason Hephaistion was given Drypetis. But the basic concept of two dear friends marrying sisters, or one marrying the sister of the other, in order to unite families is as old as the hills. It’s about creating blood-kinship. Throughout much of history, one’s strongest ties were not to a marriage partner, but to blood kin. Such ties were so important, in fact, one could be executed for the treasonous behavior of one’s (close) blood kin.*** This expectation of kinship debt still colors our legal system today in inheritance, and guardianship of offspring.

Alexander wasn’t creating a proxy-marriage to Hephaistion. He was literally making Hephaistion part of his family. You might be thinking…but isn’t that the same thing? No. Because marriages weren’t for love but (among the upper classes) for politics, and might be dissolved at some future point. Divorce was, if not common, also not uncommon. Girls were considered “loaners” from one family to another for the begetting of legitimate offspring. If her husband divorced her, she went home to Daddy. But any children of the match stayed with the father; they were his, not hers. Thus, becoming uncle to Hephaistion’s children would be a blood tie. Much more significant than a mere (proxy-)marriage tie.

——————-

*Just a reminder that Persian women seem to have taken regnal names, so Statiera’s daughter (Barsine) became Statiera at her marriage to Alexander. In fact, this is probably from where Macedonian royal wives adopted the practice.

**See the article by Beth Carney “The Sisters of Alexander the Great: Royal Relics” that I linked in a prior blog entry on Alexander’s siblings, as to why he never married them off once he was consistently winning/became King of Asia. He stood so far above others that his sisters effectively did, as well. In ancient thinking, men married the women of the conquered; they didn’t marry their own women to them. That’s why the Susa Weddings were all one-way: Macedonian Elite men to Persian noble/royal women. The ultimate power-move (and dick-move) was to marry their women but withhold your own in order to demonstrate who has power in any alliance. 😉

***As with Parmenion after the fall/execution of Philotas.

#asks #alexander the great #hephaistion #hephaestion #drypetis and statiera #alexander and hephaistion's children #royal marriage in the ancient eastern mediterranean #susa weddings #classics #ancient Greece #ancient macedonia #tagamemnon

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jeannereames · 2 years

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When exactly was Alexander IV born? Do you think his conception was precipited by Hephaestion's death? Also, I remember once reading that Drypetis (Hephaestion's wife) was pregnant when killed, do you know anything about this?

We do not know how far along Roxane was when Alexander died, but she became pregnant certainly after Hephaistion’s death.

Hephaistion died in October, likely the second half of October. Alexander died c. June 10th. I say “c.” as there is some doubt as to whether he died that morning, or simply fell into paralysis so that they couldn’t tell he was still alive, explaining why his body may not have begun to decompose for two days in the Babylonian summer heat…he wasn’t dead yet.

That’s eight months after Hephaistion died. Roxane did not give birth immediately after his death, although we don’t know exactly when she did.

To the second question, you may have confused Drypetis with Statiera, Alexander’s wife (and Drypetis’ sister) who was supposedly pregnant too—why Roxane had her murdered with help from Perdikkas. How soon after ATG’s death this occurred isn’t specified, but likely quite quickly, as when the officers and troops convened in Babylon just the day after his “death” and then the day after that (it was quite a mess) to choose a successor, only Roxane’s unborn child is mentioned. That hints that Statiera (and baby) were already dead.

Or the reports that she’d been pregnant in the first place and killed were made later in the Successor Wars to throw shade on Roxane and Perdikkas. Given the viciousness of the Successor Wars, that’s not outside the range of possibility. The theories of Alexander’s poisoning also almost certainly owed to Successor-Era rumors against Antipatros.

In any case, regencies and empire partition were decided within a week of Alexander’s death. Statiera was nowhere mentioned in any of this. I expect she was…

1) never pregnant at all, and her murder by Roxane with Perdikkas’ help an attempt to slander Perdikkas’s party. It painted Roxane as a vicious barbarian, even echoing Olympias’s murder of Kleopatra, Philip’s last wife, and her infant daughter not long after Philip’s death. As the regent of Alexander IV, Perdikkas was allied with Olympias.

Or, 2) Statiera was killed inside 48 hours of Alexander, so there would have been no suggestion that they wait to see if she produced a son.

As for Drypetis, Beth Carney has suggested Statiera and Parysatis were the ones killed (if they were killed at all). Parysatis was Alexander’s third wife, also married in June of 324, granddaughter of Artaxerxes III Ochus, giving him a wife from both royal lines. Statiera had higher status as the daughter of the immediate former king, but if Roxane really did decide to kill ATG’s other wife because she was pregnant—or could claim to be—she would aim for them both, in case Parysatis was pregnant too. Killing Drypetis served no concrete purpose.

As for Drypetis being pregnant—highly unlikely. If Drypetis had been, given Alexander’s state of mind after Hephaistion’s death, I’d fully expect her pregnancy to have been made much of, and so noted in our sources. It’s the same reason I don’t think he had any issue (that he knew of). Again, eight months passed between the deaths of the two men. Sure, it’s possible she was just barely pregnant when Hephaistion fell ill, and so would have been only in her final month or so at Alexander’s death, but I find it more likely she never had time to get pregnant in the first place. She was married to Hephaistion in June, and he was dead by October. That’s only 3-4 months.

Note that Alexander didn’t get one (or both) of his wives pregnant until after. And not because he was sexually faithful to Hephaistion (or otherwise disinterested in women). Rather, I find it probable that Hephaistion’s death reminded Alexander of his own mortality, and he decided he’d better get a wiggle on. I doubt he was emotionally up to it in the first few months, but he had at least Roxane and possibly Statiera knocked up—and far enough along to realize they were pregnant—by his death.

I’ll also note the Metz Epitome states that Roxane had been pregnant once already but miscarried in India. Given her youth at her marriage (14-16), that’s no great surprise. In addition, Darius’s wife, Statiera’s mother, supposedly died in childbirth just before the Battle of Gaugamela, well over nine months after she was captured by Alexander. The babe was almost surely Alexander’s. If I remain skeptical that Herakles was ATG’s, largely because he’s never mentioned until post-mortem, it’s not outside the realm of possibility that Herakles was his child by Barsine.

In short, he did his duty with women well before Hephaistion’s death. We have evidence of at least two prior pregnancies, and possibly three with a live birth (Herakles).

#Drypetis #Statiera #Hephaistion #Hephaestion #Alexander the Great #Roxane #death of Alexander the Great #asks #Perdikkas #Perdiccas #Barsine #ancient Greece #ancient Macedonia #Classics #ancient history #tagamemnon

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jeannereames · 3 years

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What do you think of Roxana? Personally I think she did what she had to survive (if the tables were turned I doubt Stateira would have acted differently), that she lived for so long after Alexander's death suggests that she was probably intelligent and shrewd. I don't know why people 'pit' her against Hephaistion: if I'm not wrong she was under his care for a time in India, and wouldn't have been so if they didn't get on. Is her reputation just another example of the historical double standard?

Roxana, Olympias, and Potential Conflict with Hephaistion

May I just say, Damn, I’d like to have been a fly on the wall when Roxana first met Olympias! Talk about two powerhouses. Can you imagine?

Yes, misogyny is at the root of Roxana’s bad rep, same as for Olympias. Occasionally she’s rehabilitated in fiction—far more than Olympias. And that, I fear, owes to ageism. The Cute Young Girl can be perceived as nice, or at least misunderstood, but Olympias must be the Mean Old Mother.

Anyway, Roxana was a survivor. She did what was necessary. I understand why she had Statiera killed, even if she didn’t know her child would be male, or even live. Had Statiera been allowed to give birth, and the babe was male, it would absolutely trump any son she had. Ergo, Statiera had to die. I’m not sure why she also killed Drypetis, except as a witness. Or maybe both princesses of the blood had been classic Mean Girls to Sogdian Roxana from the hills. She doesn’t seem to have bothered Parysatis, who wasn’t pregnant.

As for pitting Roxana against Hephaistion, I suppose a few may assume it because Roxana killed Drypetis as well as Statiera, but see just above.

The REAL reason I suspect they do it, though, is a mix of anachronistic and overly romantic thinking. To be in contention, they’d have had to be vying for the same place in Alexander’s life/heart/court.

I mean—WHAT the everloving fuck?

Seriously. The whole Alexander-Hephaistion-Roxana-Bagoas love square, or whatever you want to call it, drives me flippin’ BUGGY. It needs to DIE. It’s so distorted, so modern, and so flat ridiculous. I blame the Olive Stone film for that and his crazy Oedipal complex crap too (although he stole some of that from Renault).

Another point: putting Hephaistion into conflict with Roxana and/or Bagoas for Alexander’s romantic attention is really reductive. It makes Hephaistion no more than a love interest. NOT A HIGH-PLACED MARSHAL. It’s not only horribly modern but also heteronormative.

KRATEROS, not Roxana, much less Bagoas, was Hephaistion’s chief rival.

Roxana and Hephaistion were never in conflict. Roxana could never displace Hephaistion. Hephaistion not only wouldn’t have cared if Alexander married her, but he probably favored the wedding (unlike most of the other high officers). He seems to have supported, perhaps even encouraged Alexander in his Persianizing for pragmatic reasons. Marrying the girl would get them all out of Baktria, which had become a nightmare scenario by that point. Philip had made an art of marrying his way to peace. The main objection from most of the men wasn’t to Alexander taking the girl, but honoring her with his first marriage. If he’d already had a couple wives, they might not have cared as much. But she was too foreign (even more than a Thracan).

Alexander also needed an heir. If Roxana wasn’t as highborn as Statiera (and almost certainly Alexander already by then intended to marry Darius’s daughter), she still had a womb and could give him a son in the meantime.

So I see no reason at all for Hephaistion to have objected, or to have disliked the girl, who was probably half his age anyway. Nor would she have had any reason to dislike him, even if he was sleeping with Alexander still. If anything, she’d likely have curried his favor, especially if he had encouraged Alexander to marry her. She needed an ally, preferably more than one. By the time she murdered Drypetis, he was a year dead.

Anyway, truth is, she may not have seen him much. She’d have been in the baggage train most of the time. She might have seen more of Krateros, at least after India, as he took the baggage train inland by the safer route. So if she did dislike Hephaistion, maybe it owed more to being on Team Krateros in that infamous squabble. Ha.

But yeah…no Roxana-Hephaistion spat. No Bagos-Hephaistion spat, either. The fact so many Alexander fans even know who this quite obscure figure (of Bagos) IS owes entirely to Mary Renault, Oliver Stone, and W.W. Tarn’s homophobia. He gets a couple lines in Curtius (and a few other sources), who primarily use him as a dog-whistle for Alexander’s growing Orientalizing debauchery. Curtius is writing about Roman emperors as much as Alexander.

#Roxane #Alexander the Great #Roxana #Sogdiana #Olympias #Statiera #Drypetis #Hephaistion #Hephaestion #Bagoas #ancient Macedonia #ancient Persia #ancient history #Classics #Tagamemnon #asks

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jeannereames · 3 years

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Historically and in your books, Hephaistion and Alexander (and/or Alexandros) meant everything to each other. And in your books, Hephaistion grew up surviving so many family tragedies. Hypothetically, in reference to dwtl, if Alexandros died first, would your Hephaistion have been able to recover?.

On a tangential note, historically and/or in your books, if both of them had survived to raise kids/heirs, do you see them as kinda co-parenting each other’s progeny?. I recall reading in one of your earlier posts that you expect Hephaistion taking kind of a kingmaker’s role if Alexander had died earlier but left heirs.

I’ll tackle the second first, as it’s an easy answer. Yes—but not only because of their importance to each other. Hephaistion would have been part of the palace, so his wife Drypetis would have remained in the harem with her sister Statiera. Ergo, from infancy, their children would have been raised together. When (Greek) boys reached 7, they left the women’s rooms, so any cousins would have been educated together, then no doubt entered the Pages as they reached early teens. As Alexandros and Hephaistion would each have been uncle to the other’s children, they’d have had authority over them in ways typical of Greek and Macedonian society. Notions of “co-parenting” were assumed to a much greater degree in their world.

As for the first question, would Hephaistion have been able to survive Alexandros’s death—I think he would, because he’d long been prepared for it.

Hephaistion is extremely strong, emotionally. He has fundamental resilience, thanks to his father (and brothers). In his teen years, he liked the idea of being mysterious and moody and melancholy…but he actually isn’t. He’s level-headed, discerning, and serious by nature—not the same thing. So, for instance, he self-harms once, but it doesn’t become his coping mechanism. He needed to go down that road far enough to know he doesn’t need it. By the end of Rise, he’s grown up enough to leave his teen angst behind. He’ll always have a jealous bone, though, primarily because loyalty is so fundamental to him.

He truly misses his father, but it was his father who prepared him to lose him. It’s what (good) parents do, and Amyntor doesn’t leave Hephaistion wondering if he was loved, or feeling unsure of himself. So, while he mourns his father, it’s “uncomplicated” mourning. The most complicated part is his anger at Alexandros, which he deliberately sets aside, It hasn’t gone away, something I addressed in the short little cut scene, “Family Rites.” The reason I did cut that scene is there would be no immediate follow-up book, so I didn’t want to leave that thread hanging. (It’ll come back, eventually.)

So this is a round-about way of saying that Hephaistion is as strong as an oak with a deep taproot. You can’t knock him down. Losing Alexandros would leave him bereft, but he’d get over it in a way Alexandros can’t get over the loss of Hephaistion. Hephaistion is his bedrock.

#asks #Hephaistion #Hephaestion #Alexander the Great #Dancing with the Lion #DwtL #Historical Fiction #childhood in ancient Macedonia #classics #Amyntor

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jeannereames · 3 years

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Did hephaestion have wives or children ?? Are any lovers of his mentioned in historical records??

His only known wife was Drypetis, the younger sister of Statiera, daughter of Darius III. We don't know exactly when in 324 the Susa marriages happened; my guess is spring. So they were only married about six months. They had no known issue, nor do we know of any bastard children. I doubt he had any or we’d have heard about it after his death.

This was a super-high status marriage. Alexander made him his brother-in-law. That's the reason given for the marriage, in fact. Alexander wanted their children to be cousins. Sweet. :-)

Otherwise, we know absolutely nothing about any romantic ties or sexual arrangements, other than the obvious probable one to Alexander himself.

Not too much should be made of that. We don't know a lot about prior marriages for most of the upper echelons unless they went on to survive Alexander and it became important in the era of the Diadochi. For comparison, we know Krateros married Amastris in Susa, and later married Phila, Antipatros's daughter (who gave him his only son, also Krateros, probably born posthumously).

But the entire period before the Susa weddings. We know nada about any prior marriages or mistresses or boyfriends for Krateros.

So yeah...those details weren't a priority of our historians.

#Hephaistion #Hephaestion #Alexander the Great #asks #Hephaistion's love-life #Hephaestion's love-life #Krateros #Craterus #Drypetis #Macedonian sexuality

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jeannereames · 3 years

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I know that had Hephaistion survived his illness, it's unlikely (or at least less likely), that Alexander would have died either. For the sake of argument, assuming that in a hypothetical world, Hephaistion outlived Alexander, what would he have done? Killed himself? Ruled as regent? Do you think the other generals would have conspired to murder him, or would he have become an important part of the Wars of The Diadochi?

I think he’d have stepped in as regent. He wouldn’t have killed himself; Alexander was more dependent on him emotionally, due to royal isolation. While Hephaistion was isolated as well, his position wasn’t as elevated so he suffered less. IMO, he’d have felt it imperative to preserve Alexander’s legacy by protecting any heir. I also think they both assumed Alexander would die first, due to his insistence on being at the forefront of battle. Part of what shook up Alexander so much was the unexpected nature of Hephaistion dying first.

But a lot might depend on WHEN Alexander died, as to how Hephaistion’s survival would have affected a number of things. There are a couple of moving parts.

First, would Roxane and Stateira have both become pregnant? I don’t ask this to suggest Alexander was sexually exclusive with Hephaistion, or even that they were still having sex at all. But one not uncommon reaction for the bereaved to the death of a close, childless family member or friend, within a certain age demographic, is to hurry up having children themselves. E.g., Hephaistion’s death without issue/heir may have convinced Alexander to get on the horse and do something about the fact he didn’t have an heir either. He wasn’t getting any younger.

In short, it brought home to him his own mortality.

If Hephaistion hadn’t died, Alexander might have been more lackadaisical about producing offspring with any of his wives. He might have been too busy planning his next campaign.

If there were no offspring for Hephaistion to protect, he might have cared less. (Not that I think he’d have killed himself, even so.) But he may have settled back into a “king-maker” position. I don’t believe he had any desire to be a king himself; that’s one reason Alexander wasn’t threatened by him. But the support of Hephaistion would have been not unlike the support of Parmenion to Alexander, right after Philip died.

If there were any offspring, especially if two were in the womb, Statiera might have been better protected from Roxane and both babies might have seen the light of day, although both may not have been boys. Had Roxane produced a male child, Hephaistion might have decided to work harder at getting Drypetis pregnant, hoping for a daughter to betroth to the prince. Politically, that was smart both for him, as well as for Persian stability (to have a grandchild of Darius married to Alexander’s son). I wouldn’t be surprised if Alexander had intended something similar himself.

Second, Alexander may well have lived longer than June of 323. Even if we assume his over-stressed body would fail sooner rather than later, if he’d had another few years—and more importantly if Hephaistion had—some of the changes instituted in Babylon may have better solidified. Not to mention, Hephaistion would have had a more secure handle on power as Chiliarch.

I can say there wouldn’t have been any real question as to who would be regent. Whether the other Marshals would have honored that is a good question. 😉 But he’d have had more recognized authority than Perdikkas. I still suspect the “to the strongest” comment (krastistos) was a conveniently misheard “Krateros.” Krateros wasn’t there. Hephaistion would have been, at least if Alexander had died in Babylon, making it harder for a clear appointment by Alexander of Hephaistion to be ignored/misheard.

Again, that doesn’t indicate war wouldn’t have occurred. I suspect it probably would, especially if Alexander had died at that juncture in Babylon. But if he had managed to live another couple years, the power dynamics may have changed—but not necessarily in Hephaistion’s favor.

Third, I’d like to point out Alexander was a conqueror, not an administrator. He seems to have intended for Hephaistion to stay behind in Babylon, with Peukestas in Susa, to run things while he went galivanting off on more adventures.

The piece that’s somewhat overlooked because it wound up coming to nothing, was the fact Krateros had not returned to Macedon to take up the regency—nor do I think he was ever meant to—but was sitting on the coast drumming up a fleet. Why on earth would he have needed a fleet to go back to Macedon?

My own supposition is that the fleet was, yes, partly intended for the Arabian campaign, but that was being set up in Babylon. The fleet Krateros had been assembling and babysitting was, I suspect, intended to attack Carthage. If Alexander had meant to go west, as it seemed, the BIG power out there at the time wasn’t Rome. Carthage was a much more juicy (and wealthy) opponent. And Alexander had not forgotten that Carthage had supported Tyre against him.

Such a campaign would have taken some years, both in terms of preparing and then executing. So Alexander would have been physically distant from Hephaistion at that point, quite possibly with Krateros at his side. Krateros was supposedly in ill health, which was why he was sent back to Macedon, but again, that could have been subterfuge.

If Alexander were to have died while in the west, with Krateros at his right hand, then you might have had another Perdikkas/Antigonos/Kassandros/Ptolemy mess, but with the two most powerful men at the court. Hephaistion would probably have been in charge of any heir or heirs. But Krateros would have had a good chunk of the seasoned army and the seal.

THAT would have been a clash of titans worth the ticket of admission.

#Hephaistion #Hephaestion #Krateros #Craterus #Alexander the Great #Diadochoi #Successor Wars #Alternate History #ancient Macedonia #ancient Greece #Carthage #Classics #Tagamemnon #asks

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