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The Pillars: The Return of OffGun and TayNew

And we're back!

NiNi and Ben bring Shan back to the recording booth to discuss how BL is not just a young man's game. We break down why we enjoyed Cooking Crush and Cherry Magic Thailand so much, and what makes OffGun and TayNew so special.

Come and join us for a healthy mixture of simping, genre appreciation, examinations of conflict writing, and love for queerness in BL.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Intro 00:03:58 - Cooking Crush: A Surprisingly-Good Romcom 00:08:02 - CC: Comedy Ain't Easy 00:16:59 - CC: Dynamite’s Queer Writing and Ten as a Rare Romantic Lead 00:32:08 - CC: Final Comments and Ratings 00:41:14 - Cherry Magic: Beating Expectations and Simping for Tay Tawan 00:54:13 - CM: Relationship Development and the Powers 01:02:15 - CM: Other Characters 01:13:51 - CM: Ratings 01:19:34 - The Pillars: Overall Thoughts

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

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00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Intro

Ben

And we're back. Welcome to the second spring outing with The Conversation. Shan is here with us today. Say hi, Shan.

Shan

Hiii.

Ben

And we're going to review the GMMTV pillars.

NiNi

So, Ben, what are the pillars? Let's do a little GMMTV history.

Ben

So when we refer to the pillars, we're talking about the original BL ships at GMMTV. The two we're going to talk about today are Off Jumpol and Gun Atthaphan, and we're gonna be talking about Tay Tawan and New Thitipoom, who've been together four times now — soon to be five.

Shan

I think what's important in the BL context about these two pairs, OffGun and TayNew, is that they have been at this for years at this point, like nine years, I think this year?

Ben

Nine years? Yep.

Shan

They have been at GMMTV, leading BLs, for almost a decade. And they have aged with the genre. They are now in their 30s. It's great, in my opinion, to see them continue to make shows and come back.

There was this idea that Thai BL was only for very young actors, that actors, once they exited their 20s, would also exit the genre, to move on to, quote-unquote, “mainstream” work that was heterosexual. And I think that these pairs sticking around and coming back to make new shows in their 30s is really important because it just shuts that whole line of thinking down: that BL is only about and for young people, that it is a phase of a career that actors need to quote, “move on from.” And also it gives us the opportunity to actually see adult stories in GMMTV BL, which is not something that we've gotten much of yet. To see stories about adult characters actually played by adults who are the right age for those characters is really refreshing.

So it's been really interesting to see these pairs come back into the public consciousness and to see that the fans are actually happy for them to stick around. I think that's been pretty cool.

Ben

I think what I enjoy the most about these two pairs coming back together is, both of the shows they're attempting have a more grown-up feel than their previous work. And in both cases, I think the fact that these actors are experienced and know each other really well genuinely benefits the work that they're doing.

00:03:58 - Cooking Crush: A Surprisingly-Good Romcom

NiNi

So let's dive into the first of the pillars. We're going to talk OffGun, and we're going to talk Cooking Crush. So, Ben, what is Cooking Crush about?

Ben

Cooking Crush is about how the most effective way to introduce a new actor at GMMTV is to slide them in around a bunch of other veterans.

Shan

[laughs] That's what it's about for you, for sure.

[all laugh]

Ben

Cooking Crush is a college-set BL about a team of culinary students who are trying to win a cooking competition, and the complications in their romantic lives around them. This show is actually really simple. Like, our protagonist, played by Gun, is named Prem. He lives with his grandmother and his sister. His grandmother runs a formerly very popular restaurant, and he has a goal of helping his grandmother's restaurant become more successful, and he wants to open a chef's table type of restaurant in the future.

He and his two friends, Samsee and Dynamite, are kind of the oddballs in their culinary school? They're considered the lowest ranked students. They get kind of picked on a bit. Prem is considered kind of clumsy; Dynamite is just really young, because he's kind of a prodigy; and Samsee is just picked on because he's old, because he's pursued three different degrees without completing them.

They're having some difficulties with school and Prem ends up having an interaction with Ten, played by Off, who is a med student who was a little bit overworked at the time and has accidentally starved himself to be pissy with his dad. The two of them have a very cute moment and a little relationship starts to build between them, originally off of Ten wanting Prem to teach him how to cook more, and Prem basically scamming that man because his little sister lost her tuition money.

NiNi

I think that's a good explanation of this setup. Shan, I want to come to you first. What's your headline on Cooking Crush?

Shan

Ohh, Cooking Crush is a warm hug of a show. And I love it. And it's not perfect. But it left me with such a good feeling and I intend to rewatch it, many times.

NiNi

OK. Well, Ben, I think we got your headline: Cooking Crush is about Aungpao.

Ben

That's about him.

[all laugh]

NiNi

Cooking Crush for me… what is my headline on Cooking Crush? That everybody in this is really good at comedy! Except maybe Gun, who's a little less good than everybody else, but everybody that they put in this is a very funny person, including Gun’s real-life sister, who I laughed my ass off at several times.

Shan

It's surprisingly good comedy. This one has been kind of a weird one in terms of the way it's been received by fandom. It didn't really fit the mood of the moment, I think. I think right now Thai BL fandom is very much paying attention to like, these more high-concept shows that are doing really fancy shit. Crazy visuals, supernatural, and mystical stuff. Cooking Crush is just a sweet romcom that wants to be really good at being a sweet romcom [laughs] and that's kind of it. It has kind of modest goals, but I think that people underestimate how hard it actually is to make a romcom that is actually sweet, and actually funny, and actually makes you want to support the couples in it—and this show succeeds at those things.

00:08:02 - CC: Comedy Ain't Easy

Ben

I think that's probably the biggest thing I would want to highlight about this show. Comedy is not easy. [laughs] At all. Comedy and comedic timing is really difficult to do, and Gun’s admitted that it's not his strongest skill as an actor—that he needs a lot of help from the crew and his cast mates to do comedy well.

Shan

Whereas for Off this is where he thrives, and he hasn't gotten to do it before in a BL.

NiNi

I think that they had the right idea in making Gun’s character Prem sort of the straight man of the ensemble, so to speak.

Ben

A great joke unto itself.

NiNi

[laughs] And surrounding it with a bunch of really good comedic actors who could sort of take up the zip and the zing of it all. Like I think that was the right idea. And I did enjoy, like, all that sort of zany, madcap stuff that was supposed to be happening around him from a writing standpoint, and the shape of what I saw it was supposed to be. I absolutely enjoyed that. My little niggle about it was that the direction doesn't zing enough for me, in terms of how I feel like this was meant to go.

It's really surprising for me because this was directed by Golf Sakon, who did my nemesis Fish Upon The Sky, but [laughs] Fish Upon The Sky, for all that we could say about it—and trust me, I have said plenty—it was visually interesting, it was zippy, it was well directed from that standpoint. And I feel like Golf’s direction in this was a little bit flat. It didn't have the zing. That sort of is my main complaint about the show, but the show itself is really, really good. I just wanted it to zip a little bit more.

Shan

Yeah, I agree with that critique, NiNi. I think the directing and the editing—[laughs] cannot forget the editing—is definitely the biggest ding on this show. There was some weird stuff going on in the production. The most notable of course being right in the middle of the show when we suddenly had an episode that was mostly reshoots, which was extremely obvious because Off got a haircut after they finished wrapping this show, a very obvious haircut, and then they had to come back and do reshoots. There was some really hinky editing throughout the show, like some dropped beats, some confusing scenes, some flashback sequences that didn't make sense as flashbacks… They were trying to do some stuff in the editing booth that I just think didn't work, and sometimes really undermined the good work that the writing and the acting was doing.

In terms of overall production, this show was not quite at the level it should have been. In the end, that didn't get in the way of what was a really strong story and really good performances from the cast, and so it still came together well enough, but it's a definite ding.

Ben

I want to talk about the writing portion. Shan, you're usually really good at detailing conflict writing. How about you go through the various major beats of this show and how this show executed them?

Shan

Obviously, we had the main romance, which was between Ten and Prem, and that was a pretty straightforward, simple romance, that actually worked amazingly, because what this show did extremely consistently was it set up all of these really annoying like classic drama tropes for the romance, and then every single time it just knocked them down by having the characters communicate with each other. An obstacle came up for the couple that would normally cause a one- or two-episode conflict. Instead, Ten would insist on talking to Prem about it, coming to some kind of alignment and understanding each other, and they would sail through it. That was kind of the consistent throughline with their relationship, and it was really strong and really lovely to see.

We also had a side couple romance that was between Fire and Dynamite. That one was a little bit more contentious. It was tied to a couple different things that were going on with Fire, with internalized homophobia, with some struggles that he was having in being his authentic self in his family with his mother. Dynamite was someone who kind of pushed him, and kind of made him aware of the things within himself that he was stifling. And so they had a very adversarial dynamic when the show started: Fire was very committed to kind of trying to be the son that his mom wanted him to be, including dating a woman, and so really fighting against what he was feeling for Dynamite. Dynamite is a great character, who I'm gonna let you talk about more, Ben, but I think their dynamic really pushed both of them along a good character growth arc through their relationship.

Alongside that, we had a couple big threads about the friendship between particularly Prem and Samsee and Dynamite. They were working together on this cooking school dream, they were trying to get through their classes, they entered this cooking competition and there was a lot of story about them as like a group of people who are kind of considered losers within their cohort, trying to get to a place where they were a good and efficient cooking team who could actually play at the level of some of these other folks that they were competing against.

We also had another big thread for Ten’s family situation. His mother had passed away some time ago. He had a lot of anger and resentment with his father about the circumstances around that, and a lot of trauma around his mother's death, and he was kind of working through that as he was falling in love with Prem.

So we had all of these different things flowing into the same story, and one of the things that was so impressive about this show is that they actually did all flow together. The writing was very consistent. The characters were figured out from the beginning of the story. It's one of those things where, once you have all the context of who these people are, you can look back at all their previous behavior and it totally makes sense, and everything tracks. And all of these plot threads came together in the final three episodes through an actually pretty well executed conflict arc, which is something that doesn't happen very often in Thai BL—usually that's where Thai BLs completely fall apart. But here all of the conflicts were well laid throughout the show and built to kind of come to a head at the same point, and then we had them converge in the final arc.

Not everything about the way they played out was extremely perfect or satisfying, but most of it was, and the characterization stayed true the whole way through. So it was some pretty strong writing for a show like this.

NiNi

I have to concur that the writing was really strong on this show. It's logically laid out. It makes sense, the characters behave like recognizable human beings, which I can't always say [laughs] is the reality of a lot of these dramas that we're watching. For example, Dynamite, who is a complicated character—with the mix of the writing and the acting, I could see underneath where his pushing of Fire was coming from, and why it was something that he felt like he needed to do?

We find out through a flashback later, which—was a weird way to get this information—Fire was the one who made Dynamite who he is. He made Dynamite feel like he had to stand up for himself and be out there, and all he's doing is trying to do the same for Fire. It just plays out in this way that I think made some people uncomfortable, but I could see it once the context information was there. This is where [their] editing got hinky, because clearly the character was written this way. The hinky editing needed so that it took almost 2/3 of the show for the motivation to meet up with the character. That's not a writing problem, that's an editing problem.

I found the writing on the show was incredibly strong, everything logically follows on from everything else. There was a lot of surprisingly deep writing around Ten’s whole issue with his dad about his mom, and his feelings about his mom. Around Samsee's feelings of potentially getting left behind because he's older, and they're getting into these relationships and he's starting to feel like, ‘what is there for me? It took me so long to find my people, and I feel like they're leaving me.’ And that was a particularly strong thread that I really enjoyed. I enjoyed Metha, who is Fire and Ten’s friend—hilarious, played by Tum, super good actor. I love him, very, very funny. I really enjoyed the writing on this thing, and I can't always say that for, particularly Thai BL… it was delightful.

00:16:59 - CC: Dynamite’s Queer Writing and Ten as a Rare Romantic Lead

Shan

All the characters in this show are great, but there's a couple that really, really stood out, and I think we should talk about them. And Ben, you should definitely lead us with some Dynamite talk. Tell us why that character matters so much to you.

Ben

Dynamite has the great honor of getting The Conversation’s first blorbo of the season award.

Shan

[laughs] So early in the season, too.

Ben

I know. He is the winter ‘24 blorbo for me! I love this boy. Here's the thing. With Dynamite: he is canonically young, he's like 17-18 in like his third year in school. And his only friends are played by Gun Atthaphan and Dome Jaruwat, who… create this very visibly queer friend group dynamic? This communicates a ton to me almost instantly, very early in the show, particularly with Dynamite living in some sort of like tenement housing, and then having really no one else to rely upon when someone died in the apartment above his, and contaminated the apartment he lived in, so he ends up moving in with Samsee.

It’s a very obvious story to me as a queer person, that he had to finish school early because he could not stay home. And he has no one else to rely upon except his closest friends when he's in trouble. Samsee is communicated as a person who is like ‘I don't want nobody in my house,’ but immediately opened up his house to Dynamite when Dynamite was in trouble, because where else was that kid gonna go?

And so, with Dynamite, we eventually learn that he was kind of getting picked on when he first got into the school with the rest of them, because… obviously he's a kid, and boys suck. And Fire saves him from this bullying instance, which almost read as a bashing? And this clearly rearranged his view about who he is in his life, where he recognized that he was gonna get clocked regardless. And so he was just going to be who he is. Fire gave off this whole fuck-you aura that he was clearly drawn to, and so he didn't go at Fire timid, because that's not what he saw in Fire.

Dynamite spends the early part of the season determinedly pursuing Fire, who feigns annoyance about this, but is eventually revealed to… not want Dynamite to stop pursuing him. When he gets drunk and calls Dynamite out to come hang out with him, he tells him very directly: ‘even if I say no, don't stop.’ Which, very familiar to me dealing with my own closet issues and a bunch of other closeted folks growing up.

Fire and Dynamite work really well for me, because familial acceptance is something that they're both struggling with. When Dynamite reveals his story to Fire, he tells Fire that he's okay with Fire not being ready to come out. Even if it's something he would prefer they do, he has lived through the worst things you can experience when you come out, which is losing your family support network. I really like that Dynamite’s understanding and belief in him is clearly what allows Fire to rebuild his sense of himself when he finally tells his mom that he cannot live up to this ideal that she has of him. That's built out from him recognizing who he is, because Dynamite has helped him figure that out.

Dynamite hits a really specific queer note for me, because they create a character who I think is genuinely funny to watch, but you can feel a lot of his queer angst running underneath him the whole time, and they don't overextend it and make it be [laughs] way too melodramatic. Like his character’s just not gonna behave that way. I really like the way Dynamite has accepted the reality of his world, and has decided to build his own space in it, and it started with his friends.

Most of these shows often get queer characters wrong in that they don't have like a reliable queer support network around them before they go rushing into some fuckin’ romance with some guy that's supposed to be the romance of their lives. Very glad that in this particular case, Dynamite has rock solid besties as he's pursuing Fire.

NiNI

In terms of other characters that I really responded to—and Shan's gonna like pick up the torch and run with it here—I loved Off as Ten.

Shan

Yeah!

NiNI

I am a recent Off convert. I really started getting into Off around Not Me, because the roles that I was seeing him play, from Not Me and continuing, I could see the growth that he's had over the years, and I really liked the energy that he was starting to bring to his roles, the maturity and the gravitas that he was starting to bring, whether it was something serious, like playing Sean in Not Me, or Mote in Midnight Motel, which I really enjoyed—or even, especially actually, playing Ten in a comedy like this. I mean, I just bought it 100%. They put Off on screen in those glasses, and the first thing we saw him do was argue with his dad, and I was like, yes absolutely, I am here, let's do this.

I love the character of Ten. He's such a combination of tightly wound ball of stress and also incredibly fun and relaxed human being. I don't know how those two things work in one character, but they do, and Off plays both sides of him, I think brilliantly. I really enjoy getting into why he wanted to be a doctor, and the little mini arc that we had towards the middle of the series where he gets to recommit to being a doctor because he had sort of slid off course slightly. And he gets to recommit to, ‘no this is really what I want to do, I want to save people.’ Really loved that. The angst that he had around his mom dying, the angst that he had around his dad moving his girlfriend in, apparently it seems not too long after that… there's just a lot happening with Ten, but through it all he's just so delightful as a character. He saw Prem, he decided: ‘Yep, that's the one for me.’ He pursued him openly, he was just very forthright and honest at every step of the way, communicating all the way through… just love it. Love the character, loved Off in the role. I know. Shan's gonna, like, take that and run with it. [laughs]

Shan

I just want y'all to know—

NiNI

Shan is a babii, Shan loves Off.

Shan

I am living. I am getting my whole life right now. I just want you all to know, all of you listeners, that I was pretty much the lone babii around here until very recently. [laughs] I have always been an Off girlie, I have loved him since way back in the Puppy Honey days, I've always found him so charming.

He started out as a pretty untested untrained actor and we've seen him grow across his roles, and so a lot of people have only kind of recently, in his last couple of shows, like fully come on board. But I have always been an Off girlie. I know that this show has turned Ben into a full blown babii, finally, [laughs] and that NiNi has come around on Off, and it's been very amazing to see.

For my money, Ten is Off’s best character. They found the perfect character at the perfect time for him to play to all of his strengths. What's great about Ten — everything that NiNi just said is true, he's a very well written, very well-rounded character, and I love him specifically as a romantic lead. He has some really important qualities that you typically don't see in romantic leads, and that's why so many romcoms and romances are frustrating. Ten is a very honest person. He's a straightforward person. He is loyal. He kind of insists on building trust and on talking things through.

One of my favorite things that happened in the final stretch of episodes was, Ten found in Prem’s room this sticky note that Pang had written, that said something like ‘the money from scamming Doc’ or something like that, basically making a joke about Prem scamming Doc for money. Ten found this sticky note and… he got his feelings hurt about it. He was like, ‘wow like, this kind of seems like you all were mocking me, this hurts my feelings.’ And in a typical drama you would see that turn into a big conflict. You would see the person who found the sticky note not saying anything about it, maybe be passive-aggressive, probably leave and go sit in their hurt feelings by themselves and then later it would blow up into a big fight. That's not what happened here, because Ten wouldn't let it happen. He takes the sticky note directly to Prem and he says ‘I found this, it kind of hurt my feelings, can you explain what this is about?’ And then he actually listens to Prem. And Prem apologizes because it was kind of mean-spirited, and he admits that. And then Ten says ‘OK, thank you for telling me. I forgive you, I'm gonna let it go.’

And I just love that! You don't see that kind of mature communication very often in romance at all, let alone in BL that's typically centered on younger characters. That was what Ten was like through that entire arc. He was just so honest. He wouldn't let silly misunderstandings get in the way. He always made sure to be very clear with Prem about what he wanted and what he was feeling. And he was respectful when Prem wanted space, but he always made sure that Prem knew that he was waiting there for when he was ready for more. Such a good model for a romantic lead, and because of those qualities in him, he and Prem ended up becoming a great couple that just—were a team. They faced things together. Our friend Twig called them a battle couple. They faced challenges together and didn't let things come between them.

We haven't really mentioned Chef Chang Ma, who sucks and we hate him.

Ben

Sorry, Victor, your character sucks.

Shan

Your character sucks! He's a mentor to Prem, but he's also trying to hit on him the whole time. He's super inappropriate, he's always crossing boundaries, he's kind of a piece of shit, if I'm being real honest. But that guy was not able to get between Ten and Prem at any point, because every single time he tried, they communicated with each other, and figured out how to get back on the same page, and worked around him or shut him down.

This couple's gonna stick with me in that they were able to work through so much together, and that they really sincerely made each other happy and made each other more confident and better at the things that they wanted to be better at. It was just lovely. I really loved this romance.

Ben

I'm going to continue behind Shan and continue praising Off Jumpol on this one, because I have not been kind to that man for the last decade. [laughs] He has not always been necessarily my favorite ambassador for BL. He's come a long way. This is definitely his best BL role.

I'm making a Venn diagram after we're done with this recording, and it's just going to be Patts from La Pluie and Ten from Cooking Crush, because these characters have a lot of great crossover traits I really like. They're really kind with their partner and their friends, but… they have a temper, and it comes out with people they don't like. Off is funny, but also he's really good at playing… kind of pissy characters, and I'm really glad that they were like, ‘we gotta have Off be pissy with somebody. Let's make the correct choice for once, and not make it Gun that he's gonna be pissy with.’

Shan

[laughs] The crucial change!

Ben

Let's make him be pissy with his dad!

Shan

Mhm.

Ben

An excellent choice. And why is he pissy with his dad? Because his dad's a doctor. He didn't save his mom. That's a fairly valid reason to be pissy with someone about. And I think it works in terms of the family dynamics they go into. The dad's not going to tell his son that he's hurting because he feels like he failed to save his wife, the only woman he says he'll ever marry. He clearly cares about his son, because despite the way his son’s always talking out his fucking ass at him, he's not really punished him in any way. Despite the fact that Ten is clearly upset about the mom, and the dad in relation to that.

Shan

Yeah! Ten’s scenes with his dad were intense, and he was not being respectful and backing down in those scenes, ever. In this finale, he, like, took a power pose across the table from his dad, sat down at the other end of the table, planted himself firmly, and was like, ‘this is my boyfriend, and you are gonna fucking deal with it.’ I love that shit!

Ben

This is what I mean with the implied writing, because the way the stepmom is playing, she is way too familiar. It's very clear she's meant to be read as younger…

Shan

Mm-hmm.

Ben

And is trying to figure out what line she's supposed to take between being the partner of an older man, but also being closer in age to the kids. And like they mirror the positioning, she's sitting next to the dad, at the same position that Prem is sitting next to Ten. And there's this whole, ‘you brought this woman here. I wasn't consulted. This is my boyfriend. You're not getting consulted.’ And so I think the conflict between Ten and his dad is really great. Off needs to have, like, hostile conflict with other characters, because that's what we want to get out of him as an actor [laughs], directed in useful ways at his dad and at Chang Ma, and not at Gun's character, which is usually the problem I have with them in their shows.

00:32:08 - CC: Final Comments and Ratings

Ben

I was really glad to get a solid romcom out of OffGun. They also gave us some really ridiculous hilarity moments, like, they got that shot with their hands in the oven glove, twice? [Shan laughs] Unhinged. Holy shit.!

Shan

The interior oven glove shot? Amaaaazing.

NiNi

Off getting hit in the face with Chinese kale? Not something I ever knew that I needed, but oh my god, I needed it.

Shan

Ten—he’s a big-ass goofball, which we saw with his fantasy sequences! Every time they were having cooking lessons, he was having fantasies in his head about Prem and various food items. [laughs] And they were the wackiest shit. Listen, I wish GMMTV would stop playing these games, but there was a YouTube version that had a lot of scenes cut from it and a WeTV version that had the full scenes. A lot of these food fantasies got cut from the YouTube version, but these sequences just really let you into Ten’s head, how wild and weird he was getting in there, and I just loved seeing that aspect of his character.

NiNi

It was a lot of fun. I have some dings, I have some critiques. The final episode went a little bit flat. They did round out and complete every single arc, except maybe one. But it did feel a little pat at the end? And out of left field, Pang and Samsee getting together in the end of the final episode.

[all laugh]

Shan

That was quite a choice—I was shipping Metha and Samsee for the whole show.

Ben

I was—

Shan

I was kind of disappointed.

Ben

I was disappointed.

Shan

I didn’t expect to actually get Metha and Samsee, but I kind of hoped that they would have left the door open for it. Firmly closing that door with having him get together with Pang at the last episode? I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it either.

NiNi

It was a choice. But. It did kiiind of work, and the only reason that it kind of worked is because of my first nominee of the year for the Mark Pakin 6th Man award, and that is Dome Jaruwat.

Shan

Mmm! Dome was great.

NiNi

Dome is a great supporting actor.

Ben

You wanna know how good Dome is? I've been half joking about rewatching Until We Meet Again since we started doing this show. I haven't actually started until recently, because watching Dome every week reminded me that he sang on the Until We Meet Again soundtrack. And I had to go back and start watching the show.

NiNi

Yeah, cause Dome is primarily a musician, you do forget, but he is actually a very good supporting actor. When he shows up, I am always delighted anew by how good he is.

Shan

I've seen other shows that had him in it, but this is the first one where I really sat up and paid attention to him. He was fantastic as Samsee. And he got some real shit to do. One of the big conflicts in the final run of the show was about the way that these new romances were affecting the friendships. Dynamite and Prem were paying attention to their boyfriends, they were blowing Samsee off, they were missing cooking practice, and he was feeling some kind of way about it. He was kind of feeling a little bit abandoned. And it was just awesome that the show actually took that seriously, not just in letting Samsee express his feelings and get mad and have the other characters take that seriously and care? But they actually very deliberately, in the narrative, prioritized the friendship reunion and makeup scene over Ten and Prem getting together and making their relationship official. They had Ten approach with the intention of asking Prem to be his boyfriend, and stop and see that they were repairing their friendship in that moment, and back off and walk away.

Ben

It felt really important for BL, because BL friends are so ridiculous. BL friends are basically shippers half the time. Like, if they see, like, one of the boys is possibly getting with another boy that becomes the only thing that that character cares about.

Shan

Everyone's a fujoshi.

Ben

I like that that wasn't the case here! I like that Samsee had genuine beef with his friends deprioritizing him, when they were in the midst of something really important to them as a group that they've been working towards for a long time. Like, are you all fucking up our big project for dick? Come on!

Shan

This show really let its side characters shine. It was a really good showcase for a couple of actors: I think Dome and Aungpao, in particular…. Tum also got great stuff, Neo got to do great stuff… We haven't even mentioned Prem's grandma, who was also awesome.

Ben

She was great.

NiNi

Amazing. She was so good.

Shan

Fantastic, no nonsense, cut the bullshit, but at the same time, very loving and supportive. She was awesome. I loved her.

Ben

There's a little bit of a dropped bit that happens in episode 11, that I kind of wish the show hadn't cut out as much. Fire and Dynamite go back to Fire’s place and the mom comes out of Fire’s room in this very weird jumpscare, and Fire has the closet panic and ends up kicking Dynamite away from him. And he kicks Dynamite hard enough that he goes flying across the room and gets hurt a bit. And I kind of wish they had followed up on that scene. Because… I feel like Fire, recognizing that he actually hurt Dynamite is probably one of those things that tilts him on to the other end of ‘I'm going to come out now.’ And I kind of wish the show had followed up on that properly and let us see Fire make the decision.

Shan

Yeah, I do wish that the pacing of the Fire and Dynamite plot had been a little different in the final episodes? I think that it ended up feeling a little bit rushed at the end, and I think that was just about the timing of the beats. If a couple things had shifted back a little bit, I think it would have worked. As it was, it kind of all got shoved into the finale, and so it felt a little too quick, a little too easy. I like where it landed… like NiNi said earlier, the way that all of these story arcs ended felt correct and felt right. They rounded everything out. It's just that some of the beats in the final stretch got kind of weirdly compressed.

Ben

It was a little bit frustrating for me because Dynamite and Ten are both very forward and overt pursuers of their romantic interests, and I kind of wish that the two couples’ romantic pacing had been better aligned across the show.

NiNi

And again, that goes to the editing. It's a good show, it's incredibly well written and incredibly well acted, but I think that the direction and the editing let it down a little bit, and that's why for me, it got an 8.5.

Shan

I gave it a 9. The show was such a positive experience. I was so excited every Sunday morning to watch it, it was such a great way to start my rest day, to like, have a good vibe to take me through my Sunday. The writing was so strong, and that's the thing that I tend to care most about in shows. If the writing is strong, if the characters feel right to me? That is what I prize most in a show. The editing, the directing, definitely had some flaws. There are some things that I would change, but the most important parts of the show held up really well for me and I definitely will be returning to it often.

Ben

I think I'm going with a 9 because they got the gay portions of the show right, and I really liked the character drama of this. All the big moments for the characters in this show land correctly for me. This show held together the whole way through. And that's kind of what's good about the writing. Like when you're noticing editing issues in a show, it's because you're following the writing, and you see the editing stumbling to try and not let it down. I think the character writing is really strong and holds together for the whole show. I think the conflict writing that comes out of who these characters are is really good, and I just really like the way these characters work together. When I see these folks together in the ‘It's been years later! Let's go to Prem’s restaurant!’ it doesn't feel like a ridiculous impossibility.

Shan

I loved that flash forward. I love a time skip when it's used to tell us that everything is still good in the future, after all the conflicts have been solved in the present. I hate a time skip when it skips over conflict, but once all the conflicts are solved, yes! Take me to the happy epilogue. I love that shit.

NiNi

So that's a 9 for Cooking Crush from The Conversation.

Ben

It's a good show, it's an easy recommend.

Shan

Thank you for coming back, Off and Gun, and thank you for sticking around for The Trainee in 2024. We look forward to seeing you again.

00:41:14 - Cherry Magic: Beating Expectations and Simping for Tay Tawan

NiNi

OK, so moving on, and it's time for us to talk about Cherry Magic Thailand! Now, I am not so big an original Cherry Magic girlie as a lot of other people. I enjoyed it, I had a great time with it, but I'm not a stan of the original Cherry Magic live action from Japan, in the way that some other people are.

Ben

I was!

NiNi

[laughs] Let's see. So, go ahead and lead us in. What is Cherry Magic Thailand about? And maybe you could talk a little bit about the original Cherry Magic as well.

Ben

Cherry Magic is about a young man, in this case named Achi, who is a low-ranking member at some sort of large corporation, who at the age of 30, because he's a virgin, gains telepathic powers. When he touches someone and makes any sort of physical contact with them, he can sort of hear their current internal monologue and what might be going on with him. He learns fairly soon after getting his powers that the hotshot salesperson in his company has been nursing a long-time crush on him, and complications ensue. There's also a very great supporting cast, which also in one portion features the same power.

NiNi

So this is an adaptation of an adaptation, or an adaptation of an original that was also adapted in another way… like [laughs] it's a little confusing. So this is originally a manga. The manga was adapted to Japanese live action. The manga has now also been adapted to a Thai live action, and then there's a third adaptation currently ongoing, which is a Japanese anime version. So there are three adaptations of this manga. We're going to talk about the Thai version in the most detail here, but I think we're going to come maybe to a couple of things to be said about the Japanese live action and the anime version.

Shan, what were your overall initial thoughts when you heard Thailand's gonna adapt Cherry Magic and it's going to be done by GMMTV?

Shan

I was so skeptical. I am a TayNew girlie, I love them. I loved Dark Blue Kiss back in the day, so I was really excited to see Tay and New doing BL together again — I was not at all excited to see them doing Cherry Magic [laughs] when I first heard about it. I did have an affinity for the original Japanese live action. I don't think it's a perfect show, I have my own notes on it, but I did enjoy it a lot, I thought it was really well done. And I was just unsure of why GMMTV and Thailand needed to do their own version.

That said, I was also hoping that if Thailand was going to do this, that the main purpose would be to address the biggest shortcoming of the Japanese live action, which is that in this narrative about a virgin who acquires magical powers, and then falls in love and then loses those magical powers via having sex with the person he's in love with, there was no sex! There wasn't even a kiss on screen! That was a huge flaw of that version that I hoped to see Thailand correct. And honestly, what I thought was going to be the main thing they could bring to the table in tackling this adaptation, was kind of finishing that narrative in a more sex-positive way that Thailand is kind of known for that Japan doesn't always do, particularly when they're doing their lighter BLs.

NiNi

Ben, what about you? When you heard about this adaptation, what were your thoughts?

Ben

Opposition. I was deeply opposed to this. [everyone laughs] I was not keen on a Thai attempt at this. I was kind of curious about what Thai humor would look like for this, and I was interested in the adaptation because I don't know what corporate culture in Thailand was like. So I thought that there was a real opportunity there. I was interested in a TayNew comeback, particularly because Tay hadn't really lost a step—even when he was doing other work—and I thought Newwie had gotten a lot better. And so I was excited about the two of them getting back together, and I thought that they were the best choice at GMMTV if GMMTV was going to do this. But I was not looking forward to it.

How about you, NiNi? Did you have any initial feelings or concerns about it?

NiNi

I had no intention of watching this. [laughs] I was gonna give it a pass. I love Tay Tawan—I'm just gonna spend a few seconds here being a simp. That man is gorgeous.

Shan

He's so beautiful.

NiNi

He is so beautiful. And he is such a good actor. The first thing I ever saw Tay Tawan in was 3 Will Be Free, and I literally remember thinking, who is that? I think I might have said it out loud. Since then I have been a devotee. He can do no wrong as far as I'm concerned. Tay Tawan is everything to me.

I have not been a big fan of Newwie. When I watched the parts of the Kiss series that I watched, loved Tay, was into Tay, Newwie I wasn't really feeling. I came around on Newwie a little bit last year after watching him in The Warp Effect—I thought he did really well there. And so I was not as down on him as before, but I still didn't feel like Cherry Magic was a story that I was interested in seeing Thailand adapt necessarily?

A, it felt like an incredibly Japanese type of story and B, the director, X Nuttapong, is not one of my favourites. I do not tend to like his work. X did Vice Versa, Theory of Love, neither of those are my favorites. So I was saying, ‘OK, I'm only now kind of starting to feel like Newwie could maybe do something. I don't really like X’s work. I think I'm going to give this a pass.’ And I did give it a pass initially [laughs]. And then all of you started watching it and getting incredibly excited about it. Somewhere near maybe episode 10, I was like, ‘ahh! Fine!’ and started watching it. And I'm glad that I did!

Ben

So Shan, since you are the TayNew girlie—I don't remember their fans are called—of The Conversation—

NiNi

Polcas, they're polcas! How do I know that? I don't know.

Shan

Yeah, I don't know what polca means, but that's what they're called. I do not identify as a polca, ‘cause I hate the name. But I do love TayNew.

Ben

Why don't you break down why this was such an excellent viewing experience for us?

Shan

I mean, you heard all that skepticism that we were all bringing to the table, right? And this show, just, like, blew us all out of the water. It was such a good adaptation, it was so impressive. There's a lot of reasons for that, and we'll get into all the things that this production did well, but right at the core of it, the most important thing, is that Tay and New just killed it in these roles. They were just absolutely perfect as Karan and Achi.

If you're familiar with the story of Cherry Magic, you know that Karan, or Kurosawa in the Japanese version, is meant to be this kind of otherworldly perfect man, like he's excellent at his job. He's kind to everybody. He's beautiful. His very presence is just intimidating, because he seems too perfect to be real. And of course, he's not actually perfect, he's a human being. But that's kind of the image that he has. And so Tay Tawan [laughs] honestly, is a perfect casting choice for that role.

NiNi

No notes, no notes whatsoever.

Shan

Right? That man is beautiful. Every single time he is on screen in this show, I just got to get a hold of myself, and it's difficult every single time. Seeing that man and his beauty properly appreciated by the camera, wardrobe working, hair working, everything working for him… it was just such a good role for him. Not only on the looks either, but on his performance!

He really nailed the inherent kindness of Karan, but also the inherent loser goofiness of him, which is the part of him that you don't see on the surface, and that's the secret. He seems like this cool, suave guy, but he's actually a total simp. He's super in love with Achi, and real fuckin nerdy about it. I think Tay Tawan was really able to… balance those aspects of him so well, so that they came together believably as one person.

And then New as Achi, I think brought a really interesting dimension, because in some versions I think that character can feel a little bit self-contained, to the exclusion of being able to empathize with others. And Achi didn't feel like that. He felt like someone who had self esteem issues, he felt like someone who was intimidated by others and wasn't always sure what he could bring to the table, but who was interested in other people, and kind, and really wanted to learn how to communicate better with others.

I thought they both did such a great job, both as their individual characters, and then together. We already knew they had awesome chemistry, but they really brought their A game to this show in terms of developing a believable chemistry between these two characters. We got to really see, over the course of the show, Achi's awareness of his attraction to Karan build, and his feelings genuinely grow, from kind of liking him in kind of a generic way, to actually getting to know him as a real person, taking him off that idol pedestal he'd had him on in his mind, and falling in love with him genuinely, and learning how to return his affection and develop a mutual relationship together.

This Thai version really hit all of those really important landmarks in a romantic relationship, including the physical intimacy, with perfect pacing, such genuine emotion… they just really, really sold it. They did such a good job with this show, and I'm just so happy to eat my words and to have all my skepticism proven wrong. They did awesome.

Ben

I think you're right about Tay Tawan being a good choice, ‘cause Kurosawa slash Karan is… eminently charming in a really accessible way. The big part that works for him as a character is the fact that he's such a fuckin dork! And Tay Tawan is a dork. [laughs] That is a… important piece of his public persona, that he's really charming in a way that's not always intentional on his part? It's funny when it is intentional, and it's hilarious when he trips over himself because he's like, wait, did I just do that? It's great. It works really well here. Tay Tawan.

Shan

What a man.

Ben

I say like, these boys are beautiful, like every week, but he really is gorgeous. He's just absolutely stunning to look at all the time and he is just so delightful as Karan. This is probably my favorite role for Tay. I don't think, like, it's Tay’s best work, but I think it's my favorite role for him.

NiNi

I understand exactly what you mean, because I think that his best role is Shin from 3 Will Be Free, but in terms of like a great just nailed-on role for him? It's exactly like you said: he's gorgeous and the camera loves him. And so every time the camera turns on him and shows you Achi looking at Karan, and the camera is Achi in that moment—he takes your breath away!

When Karan goes to see Achi during Songkran and he has to basically wash himself, there's a slow-motion thing when he starts throwing the water on his face, and I just kind of literally was watching that with my chin in my palm, and just like, wowwww, full zone-out moment. The camera loves that man. And it spent so much time on letting us see how gorgeous Karan is, but especially how gorgeous he is to Achi. I thought there was some really clever camera work and it was a good use of Tay’s good looks.

00:54:13 - CM: Relationship Development and the Powers

Ben

Speaking of Tay Tawan being a dork and being perfectly selected for this: at the end of episode 3, when they are returning from the company trip, and [laughs] Achi falls asleep and ends up leaning on Karan and wakes up because Karan starts screaming in his head—

NiNi

[laughs] Screaming internally, that's so funny.

Shan

That was so perfect. There has never been a more perfect moment on television. I don't care.

NiNi

It was amazing. It was incredible. It was delightful. It was fantastic. I can't even describe it well. Like you just have to see it.

Shan

It's the way that he keeps his face so controlled…

Ben

But like you can see like his mouth opens slightly, his eyes widen a little bit.

Shan

His eyes are screaming, while his face—

Ben

Ahhh!

Shan

And then you see the “AAAAHHH” Like on the subtitle, which is perrrrfect perfect perfect. They did so well. They had so much fun with the mind reading jokes, and there were so many of them.

Ben

There were, they got a lot of traction out of it, it was great. Like, even after that moment ends and he wakes up Achi, Achi leans against him again, and he's like, ‘I wish I could fight all of Achi’s nightmares.’

[laughs]

Shan

Every time we heard his simp thought it was so perfect, it was always something so cheesy, or he's having a fantasy about like wiping Achi's nose or something, or like dreaming of their future together. Or he's singing a love song off-key in his own head. It's just so good! [laughs]

NiNi

I actually really like the way that the Thai show used the mind reading power. I like the jokes that they made out of it better than the Japanese version.

Ben

I think that's one of the things that they had extra time for, and I think they calibrated the humor for the Thai approach really well.

NiNi

Just simple things like, after Achi tells Karan about the mind reading power and Karan decides to use it to A) get Achi to move in with him, and B) once Achi has moved in with him to quote-unquote “test” the mind reading power at every potential opportunity by saying, ‘can you hear me now? Can you hear me now?’ And just like touching him randomly… [laughs] He touched his ankle and I was just like, oh my god, ok, this is ridiculous.

Shan

My favorite—he stuck out his elbow. He stuck out his elbow like a huge dork, leaning on his shoulder. And he was like, ‘can you hear me? Can you hear me?’ It's like, it was just so charming!

Ben

My favorite thing about Karan is he was never embarrassed about how deeply attracted to Achi he was. There was a toothpaste moment, where he started having a fantasy and Achi was like ‘oh my god, bro, please step back,’ and he's like, ‘wait, you see those things, too? So you saw… oh! ok.’ And then he walked away giggling to himself.

Shan

He just thinks it's funny. Actually that is an under-discussed, really cool thing that this adaptation did. Once Achi confesses to Karan that he's been able to hear him the whole time, Karan doesn't get upset. He actually thinks it's awesome. Because to him it's so meaningful to know that this whole time, Achi has known how he feels, and Achi has decided to be around him, he's OK with it. Karan, he’s someone who seems very confident on the surface, but he's very insecure about his feelings for Achi, because he doesn't think that they're returned, and he's always very worried about whether or not he's being a burden to Achi with his feelings, whether or not he's pushing something on him that he doesn't want, he's very conscious of that and respectful of boundaries.

Ben

It's an excellent gay choice.

Shan

Right? And so for him to learn that Achi has known the whole time how he feels and has been comfortable being around him anyway actually really made him happy. He was delighted to know that he didn't have to hide himself in that way.

Ben

Achi called that out, too. He's like, ‘why is the real beneficiary of my powers Karan and not me?’ That's actually a source material joke that they brought over really well. Kurosawa learns about the powers and starts actively flirting with Achi at work. And he's like, ‘why is he better at using my powers than me?’

NiNi

As much as we love the use of the powers, I actually want to talk about the moments that he chooses not to use his powers and instead to, for example, use his words. Because part of this story is about Achi coming more into himself and learning to be bolder and to be more open with himself and his feelings. And I really enjoyed that story happening alongside the powers. One of the things I found in the Japanese version was that Adachi really, I felt, leaned on his powers perhaps a little too much, in his relationship with Kurosawa? Achi, in this version uses his powers more sparingly, and also more accidentally? Whereas in the Japanese version he uses them more deliberately.

Shan

I thought they were so intentional about it. Achi confesses earlier about having the powers in the story. He expresses clearly to Karan his fears, about how their relationship will stay intact when he doesn't have that crutch to lean on. They talk about it directly. They do their really silly practice long-distance thing because Achi's feeling so nervous about whether they'll be able to maintain their communication while they're apart and he can't touch Karan to hear what he's thinking.

Like you said NiNi, in some really crucial moments in the later stages of their relationship development, he's not using his powers, and he doesn't even think to, because he has grown to be so comfortable with communicating with Karan, using his words and listening to Karan and trusting what he's saying. We saw that evolve over time, so that in the end, when they finally decided to have sex, it really wasn't about the powers at all. That had already been resolved and they were already on really solid footing, Achi wasn't even using them anymore in that way. I like that they did it that way, that they separated those things a little bit. They had sex when they were ready to have sex and it wasn't related to wanting to get rid of the powers; the powers were not a barrier for them.

NiNi

I really liked how they went about the whole progression of their physical intimacy.

Shan

I think it felt…really right. I felt like I could trust this show to address it in a way that not only tied off the plot of the story and the narrative, which was rooted in sex or lack thereof, but also to make sure that it felt emotionally authentic to where the characters were, that any moment of intimacy between them was building their relationship development arc. And they pulled that off so beautifully.

Ben

They have their first kiss in a way I think is really satisfying, because Achi initiates it. Which I think is an excellent choice for Achi compared to Adachi.

Shan

And it felt very earned because their relationship was already so deep at that point, and you felt like Achi was ready for it. And of course, the build to them deciding to have sex for the first time. I like the way that that played around their temporary separation. Achi went away, and they hadn't gotten there yet in their relationship—not because of any big reason, it's just the natural progression, hasn't happened yet. And I like that when Karan went to visit him, things just felt right, and they progressed. I like that the story never felt like it was artificially holding that up to get to a certain beat. It really felt cathartic to finally see these characters get there in a way that felt so, so correct.

Ben

I thought every moment of intimacy between these characters was really well calibrated for the moment, and that the two actors involved understood what they were trying to accomplish in the scene. It was really nice to see two actors with experience, who trust each other, really deliver good emotional and intimate scene work, and that is supported by even all of the non-kissing they do between their characters. Just overall, I really, truly enjoyed watching Tay and New work together with these characters.

01:02:15 - CM: Other Characters

NiNi

Let's talk a little bit about the characters outside of Karan and Achi. I really enjoyed the way that these particular versions of the side characters were done. I particularly enjoyed Pai and Dujdao from the office. Dujdao is me, I am Dujdao. She is my fave. She is the one, I love her. Pai in this version is Fujisaki in the Japanese version, and then you've got Rock who is Rokkaku, you've got Min who is Minato, and you've got Jinta who is Tsuge.

I really liked the way that this adaptation played with those characters, and I like how they intersected with the Karan and Achi story. I always like to see the wider world of these characters and the friends and family that they have, and how their relationship fits into their relationships with their friends and their family. Watching, particularly the little office family that formed with Dujdao and Pai and Rock, and then the friendship between Achi and Jinta, which I felt a lot more strongly about in this version than I did about the friendship between Tsuge and Adachi—it's a different kind of relationship. And I personally enjoyed Achi and Jinta’s relationship a little more than I did Tsuge and Adachi’s.

Shan

I really, really loved Min and Jinta in this story. I thought those actors did a great job with these characters, I felt like they fit in really well into the narrative. Jinta and Min in their own romance, as well as Jinta's friendship with Achi—both of those threads that they were carrying complemented the main story so well: supported the themes, helped move the plot along, they were just really well integrated into this story.

Jinta is a great character: he’s awkward and kind of introverted and weird, because he spends a lot of time alone, but he's also a kind person, and he has a generous spirit, and I think that all of that came through really well. I loved that he and Achi kind of came into their powers in parallel and then worked together to figure out how to use them and what they meant. They got a lot of good additional mind reading jokes and humor out of Jinta, both in his scenes with Achi, where they would slyly touch each other and then have mind conversations, which eventually Karan caught on to, and that was also hilarious [laughs].

With Min and Jinta, I liked how much in this version that was about Min figuring out what he wanted to do with his life, whether or not he should continue to pursue his passion of dancing, and through his relationship with Jinta, getting encouragement, finding new confidence, and figuring out how to do that in a way that he felt like he could make a living from. And I thought that nicely supported the themes that were going on with Achi and Karan, also learning to communicate with each other and care for each other and support each other through new opportunities.

This show also did something really interesting with Pai and Rock. One of the big reservations when this adaptation was announced was that in the Japanese live action, Fujisaki was an aro-ace woman. She explicitly identified that way, it was plotline of the show. And I just knew that in Thailand, they were gonna put the same character in a romantic relationship, cause Thailand loves side couples and they just can't let anybody end the show single, even people who are supposed to be single [laughs] according to their identities. And so I was dreading that, honestly, I was like, ‘they're gonna have Pai get into a romance with Rock, I'm gonna hate it.’

But you know what? I didn’t hate it. The way that they got them together in the end was really sensitive, I think, to the fandom that they were clearly aware was out there hoping to see this character retain some of that aro-ace rep that was so meaningful to people in the Japanese live action. So I thought they were really respectful of it, I thought they did a great job with it. I think even though they got together in the end, there's still a very clear aro-ace read on Pai, and I like them together. Their scenes were fun, they have a good easy chemistry and charm, even if it doesn't feel particularly sexually charged.

And I thought that Rock and Pai were both as well, great supporting characters in the narrative. Their connection supported the story when it needed to. All of these side characters came together really well in a way that never distracted from, and always bolstered the main narrative, which is the most important thing to me for side characters.

NiNi

When Sing Harit picks up Tay Tawan and runs off with him while he wais at the client —

Shan

[laughs] It was perfect!

NiNi

[laughs] He literally just picked him up off the ground and just runs away!

Shan

He was so good in this role, he was perfect.

Ben

I'm glad we get to keep Sing. I've been watching that man for nine years.

Shan

He always brings something great to every show he's in.

Ben

So, I am a fan of original Cherry Magic adaptation Tsuge and Minato. I like how extra Tsuge is. Asaka Kodai: I like the way he played Tsuge. I like how he focused on how weird Tsuge is, and how passionate he is about things. I like Jinta as a take on that character…I appreciate why people like him more. I don't think I like him more? But I like them both specifically.

I like the Tsuge character, and I like how in the three versions of him I've seen adapted now, each adaptation has approached him. I genuinely enjoyed the version of Tsuge and Minato we got in Jinta and Min. I really liked the way they played together. I don't necessarily think Mark succeeded at all of Min, but I really like the way he and Junior work together.

I like Rock in this version because Rokkaku is an aggravating character, intentionally, in the Cherry Magic story. He is far less annoying in this version than he is in Japanese versions of this character.

I liked Pai in this one, I like the corrective fujoshi behavior that they were doing with her. I was worried at first when they leaned into the fact that Fujisaki is a shipper who has been shipping Adachi and Kurosawa for a very long time [laughs]. I like the way the Thai show ends up using that. I like the presentation of her as, ‘you can help your ship when they need to overcome an obstacle, but their moments don't belong to you.’ I loved her, genuinely. And I liked — what was her name? The manager's character?

NiNi

How could you forget my girl Dujdao?

Ben

I really liked the way they made the office manager kind of like a…auntie figure to a lot of them.

NiNi

I love how Achi accidentally brushes against her, and hears her positive thoughts about him. Because that's not a moment that they had to put in there. But I thought that it was really nice and important that Achi got to hear how much she truly cares about him.

Shan

We didn't mention the other coworkers who came at the very end of the story, when Achi traveled, but there was a whole new crew of colleagues that he got to meet on his one-month assignment at another branch. They started that episode with a little bit of anxiety around, you know, are they gonna be mean to Achi? Are they gonna pick on him? Do they think he's a snooty city person? Are they going to be homophobic?

I love that they just turned out to be like, a good group of dudes who were pretty good at their job, needed a little help getting set up, and once Achi proved that he was there to help them and he was competent, they completely accepted him and they were lovely to him. The show is just like—everybody was trying their best all the way through and I really like that. With one exception.

NiNi

Let's talk about that exception now, let's talk about the dreaded episode 8.

Shan

Dreaded is the right phrase.

Ben

My thing is, if you're going to add to Cherry Magic, why would you add workplace sexual assault? Why would you make the boss worse? The boss is really good prior to episode 8 and he's really good after episode 8. I don't understand why in episode 8 they would have him put some sort of bullshit ‘employees can't date each other’ rule into play, and be like, ‘Alright gays: if you can prove that you are economically viable to me by hitting an unrealistic sales target and whoring yourselves out to shitty clients, maybe then I will consider letting you two homos date each other.’

I hated that. I hated that Karan felt like he had to go face her again, I hated that the boss knew it, and sat with Achi to be like, ‘how do you feel about that, bro?’ And then there's like, this whole sequence where she further tries to embarrass him, but then the boss decides to be like, ‘No, I have morals.’ Where were they 40 minutes ago? I just did not like the inclusion of any of that.

It sucked too, because it was a holding pattern episode for Achi and Karan and the crew around them. Nobody really grew as a result of the events that happened there, and it just made me really resent the boss as a character. After that episode, he has a completely reasonable professional response to Achi clearly being frustrated with his role at the company. Achi, who—Karan has shown him through the course of the season—is actually a really good and really valuable employee whose efforts have gone maybe unnoticed, but that's because he's shy. And so when he recognizes that Achi is struggling professionally and wants to maybe do more, he gives him a very reasonable opportunity. Has very reasonable expectations about it, does not withhold how difficult the position may be, and has a reasonable expectation for Achi to make a decision about it.

It was really frustrating for me to try and reconcile that version of a fairly sensible boss, who is trying to give an employee an opportunity to succeed professionally, with the guy who we got in episode 8.

Shan

It felt wrong, it didn't feel like it was of a piece with the rest of the story. We found out pretty quickly that it was not from the source material, and it was an original episode that they've decided to write because they think they needed to fill a little bit of time. It's the one blemish on the show which was otherwise so wonderful, and so it just kind of sucks that they made this choice and tarnished things a little bit by doing such an ugly extra subplot, that just wasn't needed and didn't do anything for the story.

NiNi

In the end, I'm glad it was just a subplot. And it is, to my mind, pretty easily excisable.

Ben

We just deleted the episode. Boop!

Shan

Just pretended it didn't happen and carried on, and that worked great for me personally. [Shan and Ben laugh]

01:13:51 - CM: Ratings

Ben

I will say at this point, before we get to rating that this is now my default Cherry Magic version.

Shan

Same.

Ben

I think the Thai show feels complete in a way that the Japanese experience didn't. And that's…honestly, for me, reinforced by the anime that's running simultaneously right now. What I am enjoying with the two active adaptations right now is the very different approaches to the characters.

Karan is really sensitive to Achi and Achi is really sensitive to him in a way that I find really useful in the story, but there's a chippiness to the Japanese anime version of these characters. They are not as emotionally intelligent, they have a temper about them, there's a little bit of selfishness. Like, I think Adachi’s kind of a dick in this one, he complains about people being irritating normies a lot in a way that I find very amusing. And Kurosawa’s far more possessive—internally, he doesn't express it externally that often—in a way that I find lands more correctly for him, in comparison to maybe the way Keita Machida played Kurosawa and the way they presented him.

I really like the Thai localization of the Cherry Magic story here, and I think it exists very peacefully alongside the current Japanese anime version and the source material, and I think it sits favorably against the original Japanese version.

The intent of the powers to enable greater empathy and better communication between people lands far more consistently in the Thai version. I am really, truly glad that they actually did this and did a good job with it. We did not have high hopes for this motherfucker when they told us about it, and this ended up being one of the most pleasant experiences we've had in genre in a really long time.

NiNi

So, ratings. Shan, you go first: what's your rating for Cherry Magic Thailand?

Shan

I gave this show a 9.5. Could have been a 10 if not for that episode 8, but episode 8 exists, unfortunately, so it's a 9.5 for me. I found it to be such a good time, such a well-executed story. I think it was a masterful adaptation. It did such a good job taking this Japanese story and translating it into something that felt of a piece with Thai culture. The performances were excellent. The whole production was great. I loved how thoughtful everything was. It was such a good show for me. I wish I could go back to before I watched it, and watch it again and be delighted anew.

NiNi

Ben, how about you?

Ben

Similarly, I gave it a 9.5; I think this was an excellent experience. I think it was really enjoyable week to week, and this is what I want out of my BL TV viewing experience. I got to look forward to it every week, and I walked away from it satisfied. One of my favorite TV experiences is when a show is really good, without me instantly yearning for more. I had a really great anticipation of it when a Saturday morning rolled around, and I felt really good for the rest of the Saturday after watching it, and I didn't feel like I was missing something all week because it wasn't on. It was something that I really looked forward to on Saturdays. That is the ideal TV show experience, for me. And I don’t get to have that very often. I really, truly appreciate it that this show was one of the better or best week-to-week viewing experiences I've had for years.

9.5 for episode 8.

NiNi

I scored the show a 9.75.

Ben

Oh my god.

Shan

[laughs] Wait, are we allowed to do .25?

Ben

We're not. She can do it, though. [laughs]

Shan

She’s cheating!

NiNi

I am calling producer privilege to give it a 9.75! No, but the subplot in episode 8 really is a ding, but also I really loved this show. The ding had to be dinged, but I will find it very easy to excise that subplot from my memory of the show and move on. Also, I didn't have to sit in it for a week like you guys did because I was binging it, so it's easier for me, I think, to just kind of be like, pfft! Over that.

Ben

Let me tell you, that was a difficult week for us.

Shan

It was a bad week. We were scared.

Ben

We have been in this position with Thai BL where things are going great, and then episode 8 rolls around and like, oh, here we go. That was not a great week with this show’s experience. We were not really anticipating—we were hoping it wouldn't be shit, picking up with the cliffhanger of Achi revealing his powers to Karan. That was a good choice, that allowed us to focus on the future, not the past.

NiNi

And then you were immediately rewarded in episode 9 with the kiss!

Shan

Sure were!

Ben

And then they reminded me of the boss's bullshit in the finale. He's like, I'm throwing away my stupid policy. I'm like, ‘why would you bring that back up?’

Shan

Don’t bring it up! We’re trying to pretend it didn't happen!

Ben

I had just forgiven you, you motherfucker. Shut the fuck up. [all laugh]

NiNi

All right. All right. [laughs] OK, so 9.5, 9.5, 9.75 fine, it gets a 9.5 from The Conversation.

Ben

We highly recommend it! It is a good viewing experience.

Shan

Everyone should watch it.

NiNi

Fantastic show.

01:19:34 - The Pillars: Overall Thoughts

NiNi

OK, so we've just spent the last — I don't know how much time this is going to be edited—

Ben

It's going to be a long edit for you, that's for damn sure. [laughs]

NiNi

We have just spent the last maybe two-ish hours talking about our OGs, and the stuff that they've been in this year. OG to new G, so to speak. Let's talk a little bit about the pillars, about the experience of watching these people do what they know how to do really well at this point. Shan, what's your experience been like?

Shan

It was so lovely for me. I am an OffGun and a TayNew girlie. I have been a fan, I love those pairs. I am not a big fan of the branded pair system, to say the least—I think that it can be really damaging sometimes in the Thai media landscape, but I think that these two pairs have worked together for a really long time and they've figured out what works well for them. And they have also gone off and done other things, they don't only work together making BLs. All of these four actors have very full careers. And so I'm very happy that they were able to bring them back and pair them with such great projects.

Candidly, these are my two favorite Thai shows of this entire season. They knew what they were about, they executed them really well, and they used the pairs at the center of them to all the best of their abilities and their strength. I'm glad to see that they're planning to continue to work together. Both TayNew and OffGun have announced their next projects already for 2024, and I'm excited to see more adult BL from these guys.

Ben

To be clear, we are not certain that Peaceful Property or whatever it's going to be called is actually going to be a BL.

Shan

I don't need them to make out to enjoy their presence together, so I'll be happy either way.

NiNi

I don't care if it's a BL—I would prefer it to be BL, but Peaceful Property just looks like a good-ass time, so I'm going to enjoy that. I wasn't planning to watch The Trainee, but after Cooking Crush I'm gonna watch The Trainee. I've dialed in to the OffGun of it in this particular direction. I just like Off doing comedy.

Ben

He is good at comedy.

Shan

So good at it

NiNi

I really enjoy it. Not only watch him doing comedy, but watch him doing comedy now. Because he has improved, he has grown, he's really dialed into what he's good at, and he can portray it in a way that I don't think he used to be able to. So, I am looking forward to watching The Trainee definitely.

News news, apparently the third of our pillars coming back is a possibility? So there are three OG pillars for GMMTV. Like we said, OffGun, TayNew, and the third OG pillar was Krist and Singto. We got word recently that Singto’s coming back to GMMTV? So that's an interesting thing. I don't know necessarily that there's going to be new KristSingto stuff, but…

Shan

Krist has already teased it on social media.

Ben

Krist has teased it, but he said that they won't tell him information because he usually leaks it.

Shan

Right. But he said he wants to do another project with Singto. They've put it out there, maybe as a little bit of a test balloon to see if people are interested in it. So I wouldn't be surprised if we find out next year that they're going to be doing another BL together.

NiNi

I wouldn't be surprised if we find that out in April, when the Part 2 of the GMMTV thing comes out.

Ben

[sigh] OK, I'll talk about this. We need to own that has not been a good run for Singto, for about three to four years now. He hasn't really had a solid win in a while. And I don't know that I want him and Krist back together. This is such a weird choice to make, coming off of Be My Favorite where I was like, ‘OK, Krist, you've grown as a performer. I thought you were used well here, I thought your reputation, whether it be right or wrong was used well here. And I'm willing to put all this aside and move forward.’

And now I'm feeling triggered [laughs] by the news that he and Singto will be back together. I'm not necessarily thrilled about it. Like, yeah, we had a lot of skepticism about Cherry Magic, blah, blah, blah, coming into this. And that ended up being fine. But like… [sigh]

Shan

None of my reservations were about the pairs, though. It's all about the material. Here, Krist and Singto don't have good chemistry.

Ben

I don't think they do at all.

Shan

We know that. They did two, three shows together over several years of working together. Did not manage to produce believable chemistry as a pair.

Ben

I'm not keen on it.

NiNi

OK, so here's what I'm gonna say.

Ben

Go ahead, bestie.

NiNi

I have been wrong about all of their recent projects. I haven't watched any really old things or stuff since he left GMMTV, but in terms of Be My Favorite, in terms of Cooking Crush, in terms of Cherry Magic Thailand, I have been wrong. And so I am willing to give any new KristSingto project a shot.

Shan

Oh I'm going to watch it. If they make it, I'm going to watch it. I need to know.

Ben

It's not about whether or not we're going to watch it.

Shan

Yeah.

NiNi

[laughs] They're all like, ‘oh, no, we're watching it! Nobody said we weren't gonna watch it.’ [laughs]

Shan

We will be watching it and we will be having takes! That is what we will be doing. I continue to be skeptical about the two of them being able to generate believable chemistry together. Maybe they could do a show that's not a BL. Maybe they could try that.

Ben

I won't watch that, that's for sure! [Shan laughs]

NiNi

We're talking about OG to new G. Maybe we could do some mix-match merry-go-round with Perth and Chimon.

Shan

I'd be OK with that!

Ben

Oh my god.

NiNi

Get some new pairings out of it.

Ben

There are no more—I—why are we giving Perth and Chimon another ch—Why would you bring them up in this conversation?

NiNi

Mix match merry go round! Mix up the pairs! Maybe they'll work better with other people.

Shan

I think Krist and Singto both need to be paired with strong screen partners who can bring that chemistry piece, because neither of them is particularly good at it on their own, and together it just doesn't happen. I don't know how much of this we should even allow to air. We're going to get shot by their fans.

Ben

I do not care about them. You can be mad.

NiNi

I don’t care [laughs].

Shan

What is their fandom called?

NiNi

It's Peraya.

Shan

Peraya that's right.

NiNi

Peraya ask me how I know. I don't know how. I know. I just pick up these things by osmosis.

Shan

I am not a Peraya. I want this to be very clear.

Ben

I am not either.

NiNi

But like, OK, so we've established that Perth needs a good lead and Chimon needs a good follow, and Krist is, I think, a better follow than a lead, and Singto is a better lead than I think a follow. So maybe they mix them up, maybe they get something good out of it.

Ben

Mm, anyway. So. [laughs]

NiNi

Y'all are mean to my baby Perth and I'm not having it.

Shan

NiNi I appreciate the spirit of this brainstorm. I think it's worth a try [laughs]

Ben

I don't. [laughs]

NiNi

Perth, if you ever listen to this, don't listen to the mean people. It's OK. I love you.

Ben

Look, I love Perth. But it's not been a good year for him. I'm sorry, baby boy.

Shan

I think it's been very cool, though, sincerely, to see the OGs come back around. I like that we're no longer saying [laughs] that BL is a young man's game, you gotta get out when you turn 30. I like that we're letting some of GMMTV's older talent headline these shows and that we're getting some shows about adults. That's all super welcome, and I think it's really nice too, to see pairs like Tay and New and Off and Gun, who are real veterans with handling all of this stuff around making BLs together—handling the BGP, handling all of the fan attention, they do it with a lot of grace and very professionally, in a way that I think is helpful to see a model for for some of the younger pairs.

I think it's helpful for fans also to be reminded of how they should engage with actors who are doing their job when they're making these shows. GMMTV is going to continue to dominate Thai BL for the foreseeable future, so I think it's good that they're bringing these veterans back and doing good work with them.

Ben

I agree. I think OffGun and TayNew have been on the forefront of the development of Thai BGP for a long time, and it's really good to see them seem confident and comfortable about it at this point. Both of these pairs have had some negative experiences with fan behavior, so. I'm very glad that those two pairs were able to continue working together, continue to make projects together, and in this particular case, deliver two of the most satisfying viewing experiences we've had in the last three to four months. I'm pleased.

Shan

They killed it. Amazing work.

NiNi

I, too, am pleased. I wasn't in the OG thing. I wasn't shooting with y'all in the gym then, but I'm here now and what I saw this time around I truly enjoyed. I'm never going to be a babii. I'm not going to be a a polca. I'm never going to be a peraya. I'm just not a fan like that. I fan, I don't stan, I always say, except for, [laughs] you know, the large ones.

Shan

For a couple exceptions.

NiNi

Except for the bigguns. The pillars thing has always been like the super weird thing for me, and this is the first experience that I've had with it that it wasn't weird and slightly creepy for me, which I truly enjoyed. So yeah, good job, boys. Excellent work, 10 out of 10, no notes.

So, that is going to wrap us up on our pillars episode: we out! Say bye to the people, Shan.

Shan

Goodbye people.

NiNi

Ben, say bye to the people.

Ben

Peace!

#cooking crush #cherry magic thailand #cherry magic th #podcast #lgbtq #ben and nini's conversations #the conversation #on art #thai bl #bl series #spring series #spring 2024 #cherry magic #cooking crush the series #offgun #taynew

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shortpplfedup · 1 year

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Not to spoil the upcoming season of @the-conversation-pod but just wanted to let y'all know that @bengiyo and I recorded our Moonlight Chicken discussion for the podcast last night, and it is almost 2 1/2 hours long pre-edit, and we could've absolutely kept going if it wasn't 2am my time.

So yunno, look forward to that. New episodes out in April!

#the conversation #ben and nini's conversations #podcast #on art #moonlight chicken #midnight series: moonlight chicken

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bengiyo · 1 year

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Hi! Thank you so much for talking about Koisenu Futari in the conversation pod, i binged it last night and loved it (already planning to rewatch bc by the time I finished it, it was like 3 am)!! I am still too intimidated to attempt watching 180 degrees again. But i hope I can soon, bc it feels like something I really should watch. Loved the episode as always! I hope you have a nice start of the day :)

Hey! You're absolutely welcome! It's a really fantastic show, and it's unfortunate that NHK productions are so difficult to access. @shortpplfedup was texting me during their watch of the show. We had to sit on our thoughts for weeks before the recording.

As for 180 Degree Longitude Passes Through Us, I think the best way to watch it is like a stage production and less like a TV show. You go in knowing that it's not a romance, and you're better prepared for how the plot unfolds.

I really appreciate you taking the time to listen to us talk about BL. We try to avoid rambling, and cut down on our tangents in the editing booth so that you all get a clean experience.

#answered #ben and nini's conversations #mynameisnotthepoint

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itsbinghebitch · 1 year

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it's forever kinnporsche and vegaspete parallels hours: both captive, both thrust outside of their respective social roles, both brought together by power dynamics fuckery and made equal by their chains. this is where both parties become mirror images of each other (ep6 for kinnporsche, ep11 for vegaspete) and where the romantic inflection point actually occurs. almost any romance between opposing worlds contains that upside down/role reversal beat in the story (think of nlmg where palm and nueng are forced out of bangkok), but kpts does it so well here in the shortest time frame with the simplest symbolism. and for both pairings!!! i will never get over this show

#kp rewatch #only now realized both are my favorite episodes and it's probably due to this very reason #+ to cite the conversation podcast by nini and ben bl works best when side pairings reflect themes in the main pairing #and kpts does that par excellence with kp and vp #while keeping each pairing unique and fresh #truly they need to invent another reason to live other than kpts

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waitmyturtles · 9 months

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Turtles Catches Up With Old GMMTV: Love of Siam, The Intersectionality of Expectations and Demands, and the Tentacles of Influence On the BL Genre Edition

[What’s going on here? After joining Tumblr and discovering Thai BLs through KinnPorsche in 2022, I began watching GMMTV’s new offerings -- and realized that I had a lot of history to catch up on, to appreciate the more recent works that I was delving into. From tropes to BL frameworks, what we’re watching now hails from somewhere, and I’m learning about Thai BL's history through what I’m calling the Old GMMTV Challenge (OGMMTVC). Starting with recommendations from @absolutebl on their post regarding how GMMTV is correcting for its mistakes with its shows today, I’ve made an expansive list to get me through a condensed history of essential/classic/significant Thai BLs produced by GMMTV and many other BL studios. My watchlist, pasted below, lists what I’ve watched and what’s upcoming, along with the reviews I’ve written so far. Today, in a long post, I cover the pre-BL film Love of Siam, and its tremendous influence on today's Thai television BL genre.]

As we recover from the first weekend of Only Friends...now for something a little different, ha.

I mentioned a few weeks ago that while I was on the chronological journey through my Old GMMTV Challenge watchlist, that I jacked up my watch schedule to roll back in time to add two pre-television-BL movies in Love of Siam (2007) and My Bromance (2014). My review of My Bromance will drop later this week, but I want to give more attention at the moment to Love of Siam, a seminal film for queer media in Thailand, and a definite influence and harbinger on the development of the future genre of television BL in Thailand after the film's release. Considering our beloved Thai BL auteurs who have been knowingly influenced by LoS: it's a must-add for the list.

Now that I've watched Love of Siam: while I know I'm reviewing it in my 2023 watch schedule out of order, I am tremendously glad that this review will sit on top of the enduring list as the first of the Old GMMTV Challenge syllabus, as I think it contains a number of themes that get explored in the future of television Thai BLs from 2014 on. As well, the film also opens a door into how Thai, pan-Asian, and international audiences of various demographics receive and have received the film over the last 16 years since the film's release.

Most importantly for this piece: I'd like to address Love of Siam in an intersectional analysis, specifically analyzing the film from the queer lens/perspective and the Asian lens/perspective. What I'd like to address about LoS is as follows:

1) A summary of the movie, why Love of Siam was remarkable when it was released, and a quick overview of who has been influenced by it in Thai BL auteur circles, 2) How the ending of the movie (spoiler alert) has been received and understood by specific audiences, 3) An intersectional overview of those potentially differing expectations and opinions, and what that intersection means for how the global television BL fandom watches and understands Thai television BLs today, 4) What we see today, theme-wise, by what works and artists I think were influenced by Love of Siam,

and other floating points as I come to them.

It was the inimitable @bengiyo who recommended -- nay, insisted -- that I watch Love of Siam, not only for the OGMMTVC syllabus, but also as a means of analyzing I Told Sunset About You by way of its story structure and resolution, which I'll get into in a few moments. (I actually had the very great pleasure of joining @bengiyo and @shortpplfedup, along with a few other clowns, to talk about ITSAY on an upcoming The Conversation podcast, in which Love of Siam came up as a topic -- thank you, Ben and NiNi, for the honor! I'll talk more about the conversation that took place in the podcast in a few moments.)

Love of Siam focuses on Mew and Tong, two young schoolboys who were separated by a family tragedy in Tong's family. After Tong's sister disappears and is presumed dead, Tong's father turns to alcoholism, and the family moves away. Tong's mother takes up the mantle of breadwinner and the glue that keeps the rest of the family together. When Mew and Tong reach high-school age, they reconnect in Bangkok's Siam Square mall. I'll try to not give too much more away, because there's a tremendous follow-up to Tong's sister's legacy within the film, but the movie is perhaps best known for its ending, in which Mew and Tong do not get together. The two had spent the film negotiating their attraction to each other in the face of the intervention of Tong's mother, who worked on keeping them apart, and reconnected with the help of a mutual friend in Ying, who originally had a crush on Mew before discovering he was gay. The ending echoes the common endings of the majority of queer media at the time, in which couples did not get together, and/or were forcibly separated, and/or were tragically eliminated. (Brokeback Mountain was released two years earlier in 2005, and André Aciman's original novel, Call Me By Your Name, comes out in the same year as LoS, in 2007.)

For broad cinematic context, Love of Siam was Thailand's entry in the 2009 Academy Awards for Best Foreign Language Film (now called Best International Film). To compare LoS to television BLs on the OGMMTVC list, only the Nadao Bangkok works (I Told Sunset About You, etc.) come at all close to the quality of LoS's filming. The acting, the cinematography, the pacing, and the story structure of this movie were all superb. I enjoyed every minute of it, despite the ending. (We had our first instance of Kob Songsit playing a father named Korn, which -- was it a coincidence that he did the same in KinnPorsche? Especially considering KinnPorsche's happy ending -- it's a high likelihood. More on this in a bit.)

The movie received a fair share of controversy upon its release, as it had been originally marketed as a love story between two heterosexual teen couples. The "surprise," as it were, of finding out that Mew and Tong were the main romantic protagonists, caught Thai audiences by surprise. The filmmakers reported that they were unaware of the modern extent, at that point, of Thailand's common homophobia, but @bengiyo also let me know that at the same time, fans of the film were devastated to not see Mew and Tong get together in the end. Despite the competing controversies, the film was the most successful film in Thailand in 2007.

It's well known that many of our favorite Thai television BL auteurs, like Backaof Noppharnach, Jojo Tichakorn, New Siwaj, and others, watched and were influenced by the film -- they've talked about it previously in interviews in Soonvijarn and other arenas. I haven't seen My Only 12%, but @bengiyo tells me that New Siwaj directly tackles Love of Siam in that series. I'll come back to talk more specific works by these auteurs, and how I think some of these auteurs responded to the influence of Love of Siam in their works, in a bit.

As I mentioned previously: the ending of Love of Siam is controversial. Tong's mother intervened with Mew to tell him to stay away from Tong. She equates Tong being with Mew romantically to "losing her son" (a notion that is repeated in the 2019 film, Dew), which she clearly doesn't want after losing her daughter. Tong's mother is later shown as seeming to accept Tong's sexuality -- but it's not clear if she will ever accept him being in an actual relationship. That's not addressed. Separately, Mew's and Tong's friend, Ying, gives up on her romantic hopes towards Mew to help Tong reconnect with Mew after their brief separation.

Ying helps Tong find a meaningful token of his past with Mew. After gifting him the token, Tong says to Mew:

"I can't be your boyfriend. But it doesn't mean that I don't love you."

And Mew, smiling, says: "Thank you."

The end of the movie shows Ying sobbing heavily among her group of friends, and Mew sitting and crying in a room, saying "thank you" once more.

Jumping ahead a bit: during my participation in The Conversation podcast, the topic came up of whether or not ITSAY was an "apology" for Love of Siam. I think this question is a great way to enter what I briefly want to analyze intersectionally by way of how various audiences can interpret LoS's ending.

In conversation with the wonderful @bengiyo and @so-much-yet-to-learn (thank you both!), I understand that international queer audiences were severely disappointed in LoS's ending, for obvious reason. There was a lot in this movie that seemed to otherwise indicate acceptance of queer relationships and queer love, including by Tong's mother. That a relationship itself could not be confirmed was painful to watch.

When I was watching this film, I knew that the ending wasn't going to be good -- I just didn't know how it would play out exactly. I've had this experience before, where I'm aware that an ending of a thing I'm watching is going to be questionable, and when I get to the actual ending, I'm like -- OHHHH. Wait. I get why this ending is the way it is. The last time I felt like that was when I watched 2gether. In 2G, the ending/lack of intimacy immediately gave me a holistic understanding of why the show performed so well in Asia.

I watch Asian shows first and foremost with an Asian lens -- because I am an Asian. (I'm also a cishet woman.) My expectations of media coming from Asia are different than the expectations of non-Asian audiences. Maybe even as a cishet Asian woman -- my expectations of Asian media might be different from other Asian demographics, like Thai or pan-Asian queer audiences.

Generally speaking, the ending of LoS did not surprise me in the least, especially for being a piece from 2007. When Mew said "thank you," I was like, yep. Of course this was going to be how the movie ended.

Going back to the point I made earlier about queer media, globally, of this moment in 2007 having expected bad endings -- we come to an intersectional interpretive crossroads for Love of Siam's ending. Queer audiences were disappointed to be let down. I'm going to guess that the majority of Asian audiences, like myself, had a less surprised reaction (although again, to @bengiyo's point, it seems like some Thai fans protested the ending).

Non-happy, open-ended, and/or "bad" endings proliferate more in Asian media than in Western media. I've written about this before in a Big Meta on pain and suffering in Asian dramas. As an Asian consumer of Asian media, I've been conditioned all of life to not expect for the best of the characters I'm watching. Many of the Indian movies from the 1940s, '50s, and '60s that my parents showed me in my childhood had sad or politically-driven endings. Love being yanked right away for the sake of a "moral" or "ethical" lesson -- I'm conditioned to expect it. Most memorably for me, when I was a young lass, my parents showed me and my siblings Chemmeen, a 1965 film about a married woman nursing a long-lived lost-love with a man outside of her marriage. They had been separated all of their lives for various social status reasons. At the end of the film, when they finally embraced, they are wiped out by a storm. After the "WTF, mom and dad?!" outbursts from me and my siblings, my parents simply said -- this is the moral of a story that was important when we were growing up. You don't fall in love with someone you are not supposed to fall in love with. (Probably the saddest ending I've ever experienced in Asian media is Yoshimura Akira's Shipwrecks. I recommend it highly, but it's a bruiser.) (And MANY THANKS to my dear friend and fellow desi-homey, @neuroticbookworm, for tracking down Chemmeen based only on my hazy childhood memories!)

I've talked at length with @neuroticbookworm about our instinctual expectations of Asian media and when Asian media either toes the line of predictability (sad endings) or when it pushes the paradigm to, for us, new results (happy endings). (And this is in spite of Bollywood, which of course often has happy endings, but even Kuch Kuch Hota Hai, one of the biggest Indian movies of all time, was laced with sadness.)

LoS did something different than the media I grew up with, which I appreciated in the film. It was subtle, but as @bengiyo noted to me -- it was there. A whiff of acceptance was in the movie. This was the Thai film industry's way of beginning to play around with queer acceptance. I personally think that while the ending statements of "thank you" were stark, they did not indicate anything by way of emotional conclusion for Mew. When I saw Mew crying during his last "thank you," and Ying bawling at the end of the movie -- I took from that their acceptance of the devastation of a socially and culturally-based decision that needed to be made by Tong and his family.

Mew and Tong could acknowledge their love to each other. But for 2007 Thai cinema, they could not go further than that. To flirt with the idea that a Thai family would, in fiction, accept a gay relationship, was likely too progressive. Censors, the government, even Thai audiences, all may have balked.

The intersectional crossroads of this decision are important for me to root myself in. On the one hand, there's the disappointment of Thai, pan-Asian, and international queer audiences that Mew and Tong could not come together.

(I want to note that specifically for Western/non-Asian audiences of all demographics, there is a reality that a DEMAND that Asian filmmakers create happy endings — like Mew and Tong coming together — might be coming from a colonialist point of view, one that may ignore or not consider common Asian media practices and cultures. I unfortunately see this often in shipper culture emanating from the West, and I'm heartened that some Thai content makers are beginning to call international fans out on it. I note down below that market expectations of these endings have certainly changed in today's age, but checking privileges upon demanding something specific of Asian content is something that is always worth doing.)

On the other hand, there are Thai and pan-Asian audiences that interpret Mew and Tong not coming together as a matter of timing (the market not being ready for a confirmed queer relationship on screen), and as well, a matter of expectation that what we'd HOPE for -- Mew and Tong being together -- could AND would not happen, because conversationally, that kind of happiness would be culturally and socially impossible both in art and in real life. For instance, for Mew and Tong to negotiate their relationship with their respective families, on screen, in 2007? Talking to their parents about how they could get together? Damn. I can't.... for that time period, I cannot imagine Asian media, Thai or otherwise, going there. To involve families talking about acceptance -- I don't believe the market, Asian-based audiences, and even international Asian-diaspora audiences being ready for that. (And that's not to say that people of my generation wouldn't have welcomed it. But, for instance -- my parents' generation would have been in protest for movies depicting that kind of conflict, resolution, and outcome playing out in any sort of positive way.)

Remember, again, this is 2007. Let's jump WAY ahead for a second -- to the now, when we can have a show like My School President in 2022. A show, like LoS, that depicts two high school boys navigating attraction and love. A show that actually features a high school band (Mew being a lead singer in a band is a main plot point of LoS). And a show that includes young men falling in love and navigating their families. And Gun and Tinn end up together.

How far we've come from 2007 to now. As I noted above, the expectations of audiences outside of queer circles among Asian and international audiences for positive endings have changed drastically. I haven't even watched MSP yet, but imagine if Gun and Tinn DIDN'T get together. Think about it for a moment. Even as someone who hasn't watched the show yet -- even I know how crazy that sounds, from what we've been habituated to expect out of Thai television BLs, since the rise of the genre from Love Sick in 2014 -- a full seven years after the release of LoS. Thai, pan-Asian, and international audiences of all demographics would have been up in arms.

We know now -- again, seven years after the release of LoS -- how seminal Love Sick was for Thai television BLs, in including the Phun x Noh storyline in the context of an ensemble drama. And now, I feel like I have even more context for how UTTERLY seminal the ending of Love Sick was -- for Phun and Noh to consciously decide to BE TOGETHER, and to end the show that way, in the face of the line of previous expectations that LoS had originally had to toe. It fills my heart that so much progress could have been made in such a short time. Seven years doesn't seem short. But this is where I often drop a comparative point -- that it took 50 years for gay marriage to be legalized in America. Change sometimes seems long, but in hindsight -- change can also happen fast in context.

I think the intersectional conclusion to this is that Thai filmmakers didn’t give up in pushing to experiment with positive endings in a genre — queer media — that didn’t commonly have them. By having Phun and Noh confirm their relationship in Love Sick; by having TeeFuse and FrameBook CELEBRATE their relationships in the early BL series, Make It Right/MIR 2 — these shows began to change an expectedly doomed paradigm of sadness and heartbreak. And — AMAZINGLY! — these early shows that took such risks found accepting audiences. And the market has since responded.

Now — with these shows also came the rise of toxic shipper culture and continued homophobia of actors who are actually out and gay. That’s the gray side to all of this. But Thai BL auteurs then and now still play in this sandbox. As akin to the legislation of gay marriage in America, the progress of LGBTQ+ acceptance in Thai media and Thai society is rocky. (Remember this: Barack Obama did not outright support gay marriage when he first ran for office. He was already president when he permanently changed his public tune.) But that road is continually being paved as audiences in Thailand and globally grow ever more accepting of equal rights for all. While queer audiences celebrate this with bells on — I also am beyond thrilled that Asian audiences can take away learnings about LGBTQ+ equality, especially in countries where homosexuality is banned (Malaysia), where same-sex marriage is legal (Taiwan), and in everywhere in between, where there may be outward social practices of acceptance and internal practices of continued familial or even social homophobia. The general consistency of moving the dial forward on Thai BL media showing equality is good for ALL audiences, no matter how you cut it.

I want to take a moment to talk about the clear and enduring influence that LoS had had on present-day Thai BLs. Like I said earlier, many of our favorite Thai BL auteurs have stated that they were influenced by LoS, and I want to just do a little nerdy comparative analysis out of admiration for those creators that I simp on.

As I wrote previously, I thought LoS was brilliantly written and filmed -- it was a gorgeous movie, even at a 2.5-hour run time. LoS was rooted in a few major themes (but there are more within the film) that I see cropping up in present-day Thai BLs.

The first is the use of religion and spirituality as a means of indicating cultural mores around queer acceptance. Tong's family is Catholic. Catholic imagery peppers the film -- most notably for me, towards the end of the movie, when Tong flops on his bed with a huge poster of the cross pasted on the wall above him. Like I wrote earlier, Tong's mother has said to Mew -- if you two get together, I will lose my son. Tong being in a queer relationship is clearly against the family's Catholic practices -- the cross hovers in Tong's most intimate space.

On the flip side, Mew's family is Buddhist, and clearly demonstrated as so. I would also argue that Tong's Catholic family benefits from Buddhist beliefs, in a reincarnation plot that includes Tong's sister. As we know from the many Thai BLs that incorporate depictions of Buddhist practices -- Buddhism does not generally speak to a condemnation of the LGBTQ+ community, although local expressions and practices may differ. He's Coming To Me, Until We Meet Again, and Big Dragon are three shows that, to me, include Buddhist frameworks most distinctly, but of course -- our beloved BL guys are going to temples all the time and making merit. Even Gay OK Bangkok has multiple temple scenes -- and that's an overtly queer, non-BL drama. A temple is often a common locale that we see our beloved queer couples able to be together safely, outside the privacy of a home.

The second theme of note emanating out of LoS is filial piety. When Tong says to Mew, "I can't be your boyfriend," part of what he's saying is -- I can't do this to my family. Filial piety is SUCH a presence in many BLs -- to me, most notably in I Told Sunset About You, as I reflect on Teh's hugely emotional reaction in giving up his university admission for Oh-aew, and the fall-out vis à vis his mother that results from that decision (and Oh-aew has his own filial piety storyline as well). (I want to note that the ITSAY links include a phenomenal reblog from @bengiyo that talks in part about how ITSAY speaks to LoS -- a must-read.) Part of the presumed danger of coming out in Thai BLs, to me, stems from not only fearing rejection of one's own sexuality by a character's family -- but in also disappointing one's family in the public and private Asian family construct, especially considering that we're witnessing mostly young men coming out, who carry their own load of gender-based expectations from their families.

This harkens back for me Thun's coming-out conversation with his mother in episode six of He's Coming To Me. In episode five, Thun asks, famously, on a rainy rooftop -- "I have this feeling, but I don't know what to call it" (which, I think, is an Aof callback to Tong asking Ying in LoS -- "what am I, Ying?"). In episode six, Thun, a young man who has already lost his father, clearly sits with concern that he might lose his mother. And, of course, Thun's mother comes back with the most empathetic response to a coming-out that I've ever seen in a Thai BL. Maybe Thun's mom is also a response to Tong's mom.

Finally, I want to go back to the theme and the idea of sad endings vs. happy endings. When I first began to get OBSESSED with Thai BLs was when I watched Bad Buddy for the first time. Bad Buddy, to me, encapsulated a feeling I had that what I was watching was DISTINCTLY, PROGRESSIVELY Asian by the many themes it included that I relate to as an Asian, from filial piety, to intergenerational trauma, to keeping secrets from family and friends, and so much more.

I think, for my interpretative stance at this point of the OGMMTVC, that it's clear that Aof Noppharnach has most commonly addressed themes and influences from LoS in his work (again acknowledging that New Siwaj did something similar in My Only 12%). I think I admire the endings of He's Coming To Me and Bad Buddy in particular because Aof did something that I think is really hard to pull off. As I said to @so-much-yet-to-learn, Aof pulled off not-necessarily-happy, open-ended resolutions to those two shows that hewed far more to real-life-level conclusions about queerness than overtly happy endings in the face of other tenuous influences, such as family rejections. At the end of He's Coming To Me, Thun is in love with a ghost that may be reborn at any point in time — Thun could lose Med without a moment’s notice. At the end of Bad Buddy, Pran and Pat are not out to their families and are separated by distance. But -- à la Love of Siam -- there are subtle indications that acceptance may be on the horizon on the part of Pran's and Pat's families.

To me, Aof negotiating these endings is just so brilliant, and hews authentically to the journey, to the path that Asian audiences, like myself, can once again relate to from the media we grew up with. If we as Asians grew up not expecting happy endings, how does that change our experience of watching shows that end happily now? By watching media with inconclusive or pointedly unhappy endings, Asian audiences are led to think that life is more complicated and gray than a happy ending would lead one to believe. From a queer lens — if the MAJORITY of queer media ends badly, then it seems that the underlying message is that the community ITSELF doesn’t DESERVE happiness. I will always appreciate the majority of Thai BLs changing this paradigm.

Many of Aof’s work sit in the middle of this, either by ending or by journey. Moonlight Chicken indicates a painful growth and acceptance process of internalized homophobia for Jim, the chicken rice vendor. Same for Phupha, from A Tale of Thousand Stars to Our Skyy 2. Pat and Pran are physically separated and mostly closeted. Thun is dating a ghost. Even Type and Man in Still 2gether are almost permanently separated by Type’s job. Aof doesn’t shy away from loose ends. He’s not giving devastation. He’s balancing, I think, the history of what was expected, with what real life often gives by way of what actually happens in imperfect situations.

And this isn’t entirely universal in Aof's works. In the two previously existent series that Aof "took over" in Kiss Me Again and 2gether: Pete and Kao are solid at the end of Dark Blue Kiss. Sarawat and Tine end nice and heaty in Still 2gether. But what I think is particularly brilliant about Aof’s overall oeuvre is that balance and appreciation he clearly has for art that questionable, open-ended endings gave to pieces back when he and I were younger folks. Aof doesn’t devastate us, or his characters. But he certainly makes all of us — his characters and his audiences — contemplate the meaning of our existences and our roles in society by way of the obstacles and inequities we all face, by the time a show of his is concluded. Those searing examinations are what I live for in his repertoire in particular, and they are what remind me the most about the Asian media I grew up with vis à vis Aof’s modern works.

I have to thank him for that. Maybe as an older viewer of Thai BLs (I'm close in age to Aof), I sometimes need a bridge to the robust happy endings that shows like Make It Right, Dark Blue Kiss, Still 2gether, and more have. Love of Siam reminded me of where we once stood. Aof's works are the bridge to a kind of 180-degree turn-of-perspective, towards a happiness in fiction that, as a child of Asian media, I never knew I could enjoy. And I'm glad, in today's age as I continue to robustly enjoy the genre that is Thai BL, that I can experience that kind of satisfaction in Thai art now.

[So all of this is happening while we're getting early into Only Friends, and Dangerous Romance premieres this week. The riches! So much going on!

Later this week, I'll publish a (hopefully short-ish) review of another film, My Bromance (2014) to talk about the Flukes and yaoi influences on BL. Then, FINALLY (!!!) will come my Manner of Death review, my A Tale of Thousand Stars rewatch review, my Lovely Writer review (LOVED THIS SHOW), and somewhere in-between, a non-OGMMTVC review of Jojo Tichakorn's The Warp Effect, which I'm HOUSING for the sake of Only Friends.

Hit list below! Hit me with feedback! (Tumblr's new web editor is jacking with this list below and not letting me strikethrough those shows that I've watched. For the most updated list, check this link right here.)

1) The Love of Siam (2007) (movie) 2) My Bromance (2014) (movie) (review coming) 3) Love Sick and Love Sick 2 (2014 and 2015) (review here) 4) Gay OK Bangkok Season 1 (2016) (a non-BL queer series directed by Jojo Tichakorn and written by Aof Noppharnach) (review here) 5) Make It Right (2016) (review here) 6) SOTUS (2016-2017) (review here) 7) Gay OK Bangkok Season 2 (2017) (a non-BL queer series directed by Jojo Tichakorn and written by Aof Noppharnach) (review here) 8) Make It Right 2 (2017) (review here) 9) Together With Me (2017) (review here) 10) SOTUS S/Our Skyy x SOTUS (2017-2018) (review here) 11) Love By Chance (2018) (review here) 12) Kiss Me Again: PeteKao cuts (2018) (no review) 13) He’s Coming To Me (2019) (review here) 14) Dark Blue Kiss (2019) and Our Skyy x Kiss Me Again (2018) (review here) 15) TharnType (2019-2020) (review here) 16) Senior Secret Love: Puppy Honey (OffGun BL cuts) (2016 and 2017) (no review) 17) Theory of Love (2019) (review here) 18) 3 Will Be Free (2019) (a non-BL and an important harbinger of things to come in 2019 and beyond re: Jojo Tichakorn pushing queer content in non-BLs) (review here) 19) Dew the Movie (2019) (review here) 20) Until We Meet Again (2019-2020) (review here) 21) 2gether (2020) and Still 2gether (2020) (review here) 22) I Told Sunset About You (2020) (review here) 23) YYY (2020, out of chronological order) (review here) 24) Manner of Death (2020-2021) (not a true BL, but a MaxTul queer/gay romance set within a genre-based show that likely influenced Not Me and KinnPorsche) (review coming) 25) A Tale of Thousand Stars (2021) (review here) 26) A Tale of Thousand Stars (2021) OGMMTVC Fastest Rewatch Known To Humankind For The Sake Of Rewatching Our Skyy 2 x BBS x ATOTS (review coming) 27) Lovely Writer (2021) (review coming) 28) Last Twilight in Phuket (2021) (the mini-special before IPYTM) 29) I Promised You the Moon (2021) 30) Not Me (2021-2022) 31) Bad Buddy (2021-2022) (thesis here) 32) 55:15 Never Too Late (2021-2022) (not a BL, but a GMMTV drama that features a macro BL storyline about shipper culture and the BL industry) 33) Bad Buddy (2021-2022) and Our Skyy 2 x BBS x ATOTS (2023) OGMMTVC Rewatch 34) Secret Crush On You (2022) [watching for Cheewin’s trajectory of studying queer joy from Make It Right (high school), to SCOY (college), to Bed Friend (working adults)] 35) KinnPorsche (2022) (tag here) 36) KinnPorsche (2022) OGMMTVC Fastest Rewatch Known To Humankind For The Sake of Re-Analyzing the KP Cultural Zeitgeist 37) The Eclipse (2022) (tag here) 38) GAP (2022-2023) (Thailand’s first GL) 39) My School President (2022-2023) and Our Skyy 2 x My School President (2023) 40) Moonlight Chicken (2023) (tag here) 41) Bed Friend (2023) (tag here) (Cheewin’s latest show, depicting a queer joy journey among working adults) 42) Be My Favorite (2023) (tag here) (I’m including this for BMF’s sophisticated commentary on Krist’s career past as a BL icon) 43) Only Friends (2023)]

#love of siam #the love of siam #love of siam meta #the love of siam meta #backaof noppharnach #new siwaj #bad buddy #he's coming to me #dark blue kiss #still 2gether #my school president #turtles catches up with old gmmtv #the old gmmtv challenge #ogmmtvc #turtles catches up with the essential bls #turtles catches up with thai bls

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wen-kexing-apologist · 9 months

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Bengiyo's Queer Media Syllabus

For those who are not aware, I have decided to run the gauntlet of @bengiyo’s Queer Cinema Syllabus and have officially started Unit 1: Coming of Age Post Moonlight. The films in Unit 1 are Pariah (2011), Get Real (1998), Edge of Seventeen (1998), My Own Private Idaho (1991), and Mysterious Skin (2004)

Today I will be writing about:

Edge of Seventeen (1998) dir. David Moreton

[Available on: Kanopy, Archive, Amazon, Run Time: 1:44]

Summary: A teenager copes with his sexuality on the last day of school in 1984. It shows him coping with being gay and being with friends. (from IMDB)

Cast: Chris Stafford as Eric, the main character Tina Holmes as Maggie, Eric’s best friend/girlfriend-ish? Anderson Gabrych as Rod, Eric’s gay awakening Lea DeLaria as Angie, former work supervisor of Eric, Maggie, and Rod at their summer job.

I had some firsts with this film. This was the first film in the syllabus that had identifiable tropes that carry through some of the BLs, which makes sense as this syllabus was designed as a progression in to BL. But most importantly, this was the first film in the syllabus that made me truly understand how important it was for me to work my way through these films, and that comes down to the surrounding conversation I had with @bengiyo and @shortpplfedup, when I expressed absolute shock and awe that a film from 1998 had two men shoving their tongues down each other’s throats, mouthing at penises through pants, massaging bare asses on screen, mentioning/simulating rimming, showing and actually using lube.

I decided to work my way through this syllabus because growing up I a) didn’t know I was queer or at the very least b) did not admit to myself I was queer, c) did not have any out queer people in my family and d) did not have any our queer elders in my surrounding life. Therefore every single piece of queer cinema or television that I consumed was something that I just happened to stumble across, or that I had potentially seen someone post about on tumblr. Thus, there is a wealth of queer cinema that I never knew existed.

In the past few years I have reflected a lot on how little history I know about my community. I have thought about lines in The Inheritance play where older gay men are discussing how baby gays just Simply Do Not Understand but also how they don’t know the names of important and influential people in the community, we may all know Stonewall, but honestly until a year or so ago I could not name a single other important moment in US queer history. I don’t like how much I am missing because I didn’t know myself and didn’t have anyone around to learn it from.

All of this to say, I wanted to watch more queer cinema because I didn’t know what was out there, and in doing so I have realized how important it is to me to see these glimpses of history in what was allowed, acceptable, tolerated, made visible, and the level to which queer characters were humanized and treated with empathy and compassion.

Anyway, I was watching this film and DMing Ben and Nini about it and when I expressed surprise that they were going this far in a film from over 20 years ago, they said the following (independent of each other):

“I realize you came of age after 9/11, but you truly have no idea how hard this nation regressed”

“Ah the halcyon days of the 90’s before the weird post-911 puritanical backlash”

So, naturally a conversation begun around society, art, and culture and how it change between the 90s and 2000s (@shortpplfedup). How military service and gay marriage were compromises compared to what queer people were pushing for before 9-11 (@bengiyo). And that is when I was struck with the understanding that I needed to go through this syllabus. For the sake of understanding what art and culture and queerness was like before 9-11. For the sake of understanding just how far film and television have regressed in the US when it comes to queerness and how it is portrayed, how frequently, and in what contexts in film and television.

And there are little moments in this film that I see nodding to queer history, the most visually striking one for me being the shot of the back of a record holder that had a pink triangle as its design. That feels extremely intentional to me.

It is also the first film in the syllabus I’ve seen that contains trends/tropes utilized in BL. First being where a boy, left unattended, grabs the nearest article of his crush’s clothing and smells it. The way the enter the final sex scene in this film by focusing initially on the feet, which I have seen done a number of times in the BLs that I have watched (l just finished You’re My Sky today and they imply sex through foot position, you can see it in the trailer for Only Friends as well). But unlike most of the BLs, I’ve watched that utilize that imagery due to rating requirements or censorship, THE CAMERA KEEPS GOING and you’ve got bare, hairy asses, all the hip you could possibly want, and two men practically eating each other’s faces. I see so many echos of Teh and Tarn’s relationship to one another reflected in the dynamic between Eric and Maggie.

I guess I don’t have much else say about the film itself except that it is very clearly created by people who are queer, who get it, who understand what Rod is saying when he says he likes Madonna, how you can immediately tell that Eric is going to a gay club when he pulls up to the parking lot of Universal Fruits and Nuts. The way the exterior of that building feels very different from what is inside, and made me think a bit about speakeasies. The shirt Eric wears when he comes out being a disassembled, abstracted face, his brother wearing a That’s The American Way t-shirt. You know what the film is trying to tell us about Eric’s identity based on which female musical artists he has on his wall.

Like the other two films I have seen in Unit 1, the ending of the film is the most striking, lingering part for me. Eric comes out to his mother in the following exchange:

Eric says “I’m gay” \\ in the quietest voice she has, his mother says “I know” Eric and his mother hug* and she asks him“What did I do wrong?” she lets go and moves to the other end of the living room \\ Eric looks devastated says* “I love you” \\ she turns to look at him and says “I don’t know how to handle this”.

In that initial “I’m gay” \\ “I know” exchange be followed by a nice, warm hug, there was a spark of hope in me that this would be a coming out that his parent would handle gracefully (despite the other moments in the film where she starts to suspect and question him). I thought for the briefest of seconds that her question “What did I do wrong?” was her asking Eric how she had misstepped in ways that he was worried about coming out to her. But in about the same amount of time that it took for Eric to process the question, I realized a much deeper, more painful thread was being called to the surface: “What did I do wrong [to make you gay?]”

This feels like an admission a la Mol in 180 Degrees, telling Wang that she is, in fact, disappointed that he is gay. And you can see the way it impacts Eric. And silly me, I should never for a second thought that this coming out might go over flawlessly, because this story and parts of gay culture and gay sex that are included in this film indicate to me there are queer people behind the story. Which means the way that Eric’s mother handles the coming out is so much more likely to be realistic. Parent and child both confirming that they love each other, but their child still being hurt by their parent’s inability to understand and figure out how to handle new information like that spoke directly to how the conversation between me and my mother went when I came out.

But even more important to me than that scene, than the complexity that comes from loving someone and not knowing how to reconcile love and homophobia, is that life goes on. Eric leaves the house, and ends up back at the gay club, surrounded by queer elders, seeing a boy he has a crush on, and smiling and enjoying himself with his community while he listens to his friend sing the words “nothing but blue skies from now on”. Which just feels…idk, so goddamn real? Carrying the pain of rejection with you but being determined to find joy in the people who accept you, despite how much the rejection may hurt.

I place this film in the by, for, about category

In general, I would have given this show an 8.5/10, but with the inclusion of poppers, blow jobs, rimming, use of condoms, and the first fucking inclusion of lube in any gay sex scenes I’ve ever seen on screen, I’m bumping it up to a 9.

Favorite Moment:

The Redi-Whip can spraying in Eric's hand after Rod says something out of pocket.

Favorite Quote:

Eric: “I guess I thought if I came out, everything would get easier”

Angie: *immediately bursts out laughing*

#bengiyo queer cinema syllabus #edge of seventeen #edge of seventeen (1998)

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use-your-imagination98 · 3 years

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If I was writing HSMTMTS S3

So, we know the drama kids go to theater camp:

Have the theater camp be run by Ashlyn and EJ’s grandmother: Penny Caswell

This would lead to Caswell Family Drama

which would lead to introducing the grandfather: George Caswell

We already know that George and Penny met at Duke. George was going to be a lawyer and Penny was studying theater. Penny got pregnant her senior year with Cash. She lost her chance at being a Broadway star to stay home and raise Cash (and eventually Dennis)

George bought the camp for Penny to shut up her complaints that he got to be this big shot lawyer and she never got to follow her dreams. George doesn’t understand/like musicals/theater.

George is close with Ashlyn, while Penny is close with EJ. Penny doesn’t mind that EJ is still exploring life, while George is furious that EJ isn’t going to Duke. Penny internally sees a lot of herself in Ashlyn and therefore pushes her extremely hard.

When Ash and EJ introduce Gina and Big Red, it’s Big Red who Penny doesn’t like. She thinks he is below Ashlyn’s standards and spends all summer trying to set Ashlyn up with another boy at the camp who has huge dreams.

Gina, for the first time in her life, is settled and happy. She helps EJ discover what he wants in life and helps EJ and Ashlyn with their family troubles.

Enter Ricky... He brings Lily along with him to summer theater camp. Lily puts on a fake front, but Gina senses that she is being fake.

Soon, an instagram account is created and begins bullying the East High Drama kids: Putting a pig’s nose on a pic of Ashlyn, a DUNCE cap on a pic of Seb, etc. One picture is revealed during each episode starting with 2 and ending with 7/8. All these pictures were taken at camp. So, the instagram has to be run by someone there. Gina, Kourtney, Big Red, and Carlos are the loudest voices telling Ricky that its Lily. But Ricky continues to defend her.

Gina call out Lily at one of the campfire sing-a-longs and Lily acts all dumb and hurt. Ricky and Gina argue (#Rina angst). Big Red breaks them apart and pulls Ricky aside. Red tries to reason with Ricky and explain why everyone thinks its Lily. Ricky blows up at Red and complains that the reason he’s team Lily is because ever since Big Red started dating Ashlyn, he’s changed and doesn’t have time for Ricky. Big Red goes off (#Redky angst)

Howie, seeing how Lily’s lies are pulling the friend group apart, pulls Kourtney aside and admits Lily stole the harness and he knew about it. Kourtney fumes. Breaks up with Howie and we get a girl bonding moment with her and Gina and Ashlyn. Kourtney shifts focus on making costumes for the camp’s summer musicale. Her costume prowess impresses Penny and Penny offers Kourtney a job at Caswell Camp anytime she would like one and writes her a letter of recommendation to Kourtney’s top college.

After Lily posted the Seb picture with a DUNCE cap on him, Seb confides in Carlos that he is dyslexic and learning is hard for him and when people put him down or call him stupid, it really hurts. Carlos decides that he comes from money and decides (with Seb’s permission) to hire Seb an amazing tutor to help him with school.

So, to recap: Ricky is fighting with EVERYONE, EJ is fighting with his grandpa, Ashlyn with her grandma, EVERYONE but Lily is mad at Ricky, Howie and Kourtney are on the outs but Queen Kourtney is thriving elsewhere.

As for Miss Jenn and Mr. Mazzara, Mr. M took the California Job and Miss Jenn is trying to make it work with Mike, but with every passing day she regrets it. She talks to Penny about her troubles. Penny explains her story with George and Miss Jenn realizes she wants Mr. Mazzara, that she is forcing herself to work in Mike’s life, but her and Ben just click.

CUTE COUPLE MOMENTS:

3x05: It’s the 4th of July and this episode contains the Seblos talk about Seb having dyslexia. In this episode, Seb confides in Carlos and Carlos decides he will do any activity that Seb wants to do that day. At night, during the fireworks, Carlos had EJ and Big Red spell out “I LOVE YOU SEB” in fireworks. Seb says ILY2 and they kiss under the fireworks.

3x08: Big Red is fed up with Penny trying to push Ashlyn closer to the camp guy and during a conversation with Ashlyn, he gets super short and testy. Ashlyn puts it together that Red is worried again that he’s not enough for her and tells her grandma to back off. She loves Big Red. It dawns on her what she just admitted and plans to tell Big Red under the star light (since lights are their thing). She drags him to a midnight picnic under the stars and they say their ILYs.

Portwell are cute all season. EJ defends his relationship with Gina to his grandfather pretty early in the season. They are full of fluff all season... until 3x12. EJ decides to go to Penn State (or any out of Utah college) for communications and videography. And Gina (once again) gets the rug pulled out from under her, and confused about what that means for her and EJ.

After her talk with Penny in 3x10, Miss Jenn misses the beginning of the camp musicale in 3x11 and flies to California to confess her feelings for Mr. Mazzara. They finally kiss and Mr. M admits California isn’t for him. He’s more of a Utah guy anyway.

Howie tries all summer to get Kourtney’s forgiveness, but she just won’t budge. During the camp musicale he sings another AMAZING ballad and says an impromptu speech about how in awe he is of her and how he screwed up. Kourtney is touched and agrees to start again but he has to gain her trust back.

George and Penny have a sweet moment in 3x11 or 3x12 after he watches Ashlyn and EJ sing and starts to see what Penny sees in the musical/theater stuff.

Ricky, being on the rocks with all his friends, starts to wonder if they were right about Lily. He steals her phone while she’s taking a swim in the lake and sees that she truly is the one behind the horrible pictures of his friends. He confronts her the morning of the musicale and they break up. Throughout the musicale he makes amends with the gang, especially a really sweet Big Red/Ricky moment. Then, the season ends with Ricky looking for Gina to apologize after the show, and she's sitting in the dark, alone by the lake. He notices she’s crying and she admits she doesn’t know what her and EJ’s future is going to be. He sits besides her and wraps an arm around her. SEASON ENDS.

Musical Moments:

The East High Drama Club does another Instagram video but this time to “What Time is It”

a Miss Jenn/Penny duet (HSM’s Ms Darbus and HSMTMTS’s Ms Darbus)

a Kourtney/Ashlyn/Gina acoustic friendship song after Kourtney is hurt by Howie

George singing to Penny as a surprise after he understands her love of musicals for the first time

of course a bunch of others, but that all depends on what musical they do.

If you made it this far, thanks for reading! I liked season 2, but it wasn’t cohesive. Plots were dropped and the core of the characters and friendships were lost or forgotten. I feel like although the characters would be going through individual drama, all their drama is connected and plots aren’t dropped the next episode. Also, I’m neither a Portwell or a Rina, I ship more of Gina and happiness so I tried to give both Portwells and Rinas stuff they would enjoy.

P.S. NiNi is in California writing/recording music. I don’t think Olivia is likely coming back so I had all this in mind without NiNi being on the show.

NEW CAST:

Alyson Reed as Penny Caswell (uhhh hello! Having the OG Ms Darbus apart of HSMTMTS would be perfect!)

Jon Lindstrom as George Caswell (you guys probably don’t know him but he’s a goooood actor, works for ABC who is owned by Disney, and can sing)

#hsmtmts #hsmtmts season 3 #Portwell #rina #redlyn #seblos #kowie #licky #bored out of my mind #thought this up #I just want a more cohesive season #and more than just relationship drama

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ahsterism-a · 4 years

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RICKY BOWEN META - EPISODE NINE

okay, i have a Lot of thoughts about everything that happened in this episode, and i really need to get it out of my system, so i figured i’d compile a bunch of analysis all into one post. i’m gonna try and organize this into specific categories.

RICKY & HIS PARENTS

Ricky knew that his mom and his dad were both coming to see the show in advance: he was prepared for this. He was nervous before the show started, obviously shown by how he shows up really early due to “opening night jitters,” which is a combination of never having done a musical before ( because he’s grown to really love being apart of it, he enjoys having somewhere to go after school and finding a family among everyone ), and specifically his mom’s presence ( “It’s just a lot. My mom’s coming tonight, and I’ve technically never been in a musical before ). He’s happy that his mom will be there, but it’s still hard because he misses her, and wants things to be normal. And then when Ricky peeks out from behind the stage and sees his parents, sees them HUG, he grins. He knows that parents split up, knows that these kinds of things happen, but remember he was convinced that they’d work it out. And in addition, he has a hard time dealing with change, so when he sees his parents looking happy together, it feels right. He doesn’t think things are fixed, but they’re together and happy for a moment, and it means the world to him. He doesn’t have to miss his mom for a night, doesn’t have to worry about any of that.

So he performs, and despite a few technical issues, it’s going pretty great. Until Get’cha Head In The Game. Throughout the entire performance, he’s giving it his all, singing and dancing and smiling-- it’s evident how much EFFORT he’s put into the show ( especially compared to his dancing at the beginning ). And then he’s in the air, glances towards where his parents are sitting...and freezes. Because someone he doesn’t know walks in, and that someone puts an arm around his mom and kisses her on the cheek, and she’s pointing up at him, and he realizes it’s Todd. He already knew his mom had a new boyfriend, even talked to her about it when he called on Thanksgiving night, but in that moment, Ricky is RIPPED right out of his safe space. He’s already had an incredibly hard time adjusting to the divorce, it’s only been about three weeks since she moved out, and he didn’t even get a warning about this beforehand. It’s overwhelming-- he drops the basketball, he tenses, he can’t easily shake this. But he keeps going the best he can, even though he completely loses his sense of what he’s doing, is too wrapped up in suddenly being dragged right back into all his issues in the middle of doing something he’s come to love.

It boils down to his issues with handling change and the divorce. He gets that his mom is moving on, but it’s too much too soon. He’s hurt, he’s angry, and he’s shaken.

THE EFFECT THIS HAD ON HIM/GIVING UP HIS ROLE

The second Ricky goes backstage, he asks where Nini is, says he could really use a pep talk. We already knows it’s easiest for him to talk to Nini about these kinds of things, because he says it in episode 4. He’s shaking, seeking comfort. But then Carlos tells him Nini seems nervous, and Ricky IMMEDIATELY pushes aside his own problems to express concern for her. He’s done this with multiple characters a few times-- he’s naturally selfless, and deals with his problems essentially by not dealing with them. He hears about the dean of the art school in the audience, and he quickly realizes that this could change Nini’s life. And Ricky is screwing it up: “My mom’s new boyfriend decided to show up, and I wanna punch a wall. I feel like I need a miracle to face Act Two.” He believes he CAN’T do act two well after this-- he doesn’t think he’s GOOD ENOUGH, especially after all of that, and knows he can’t mess this up for Nini.

So even though he’s still shaken and hurt and pretty much on the verge of tears, he goes right to E.J., and immediately tells him he has to play Troy. He outright says it: “No, I’m good, just not good enough to help Nini get where she wants to go...I’m screwing up out there! I can’t blow this for Nini.” Again, remember how much EFFORT Ricky put into this show, remember how he found a family with it, and after he messes up, he immediately GIVES THAT UP to give Nini a better shot. It repeats again that he’s selfless, and isn’t confident that he can go on like this, practically demanding that E.J. takes his place.

He’s nowhere to be found in the preview, but once he isolates himself from the show, for my portrayal it absolutely hits him hard, and the breakdown hinted at goes into full swing.

RICKY & HIS FEELINGS TOWARDS NINI

Ricky is still in love with Nini. This is pretty much undeniable at this point. He starts the episode off by showing Big Red a song that he wrote for her. He took time out of his day when he was already nervous about the show to write her a song for opening night, one where he USES the word love. This is incredibly important for Ricky’s character. He went from not being able to say it, freaking out after seeing the post ( reasonably so ), and asking to take a pause, to saying it clearly in Just For A Moment. This isn’t to say he isn’t scared anymore, because he is, he’s still afraid that love means falling apart, still grappling with intimacy issues that stem from his life at home, but when he didn’t say it, they still fell apart. He misses her, not only as a girlfriend, but as his best friend, and so many things he does throughout the season prove how much he cares for her.

But then they have that conversation in the hallway, and Ricky immediately assumes that she’s going to reject him. Why wouldn’t she? After he almost kissed her in episode 4, she pulled away, and even though she initiated this time, why would it be different? Even though he thought that almost kiss meant something, the second Nini brings it up, he immediately assumes it’ll be another rejection, and brushes it off. He doesn’t want to pressure Nini even further, but in doing so, he causes her to think he’s rejecting her, and it’s just a whole mess of miscommunication. But he couldn’t help it, he still thinks she doesn’t feel the same anymore.

And then there’s what he does for her at the end, which I already talked about, but again, it shows just how much he cares about her.

RICKY & HIS CONVERSATION WITH/FEELINGS TOWARDS GINA

There are a lot of interpretations of this scene and Ricky’s dialogue, and I’m going to preface this by saying I am completely impartial to ships. What I want to do here is accurately analyze Ricky’s headspace at THIS POINT IN TIME. I love their friendship so much, and I’m here for slowburn romance, but currently in the show, he’s confused at best, and absolutely not there yet.

For starters, Ricky has a reason to be acting as weird as he does. He’s staying closed off because he knows Gina is going to leave again. He knows she can’t stay for long, and doesn’t want to get attached to her being there when he’s just going to lose that again. That’s why he says it’s tough seeing Gina. It’s only been about a week, but he doesn’t want to make things worse for when she’s gone forever.

And then, there are his feelings towards Gina as a whole. With the absence of Nini in his life, Ricky needed someone around that understood him, needed a friend that could get his complications and fill a missing piece. This isn’t to say that Gina was a rebound, because she ISN’T-- Ricky genuinely cares for her. But in Nini’s absence, he assumes that this sudden connection with Gina means he might have feelings for her. She makes him happy and he enjoys spending time with her, but it isn’t love, at least not at this point in time. Remember Ricky’s struggle with the word love-- hell, he’s known Nini since kindergarten and he still couldn’t say it. He doesn’t operate that fast, and given his feelings for Nini are still there, he doesn’t do a complete 180 with Gina. Still, Ricky thinks he might like Gina romantically, and I’m not saying he can’t, but right now, he was confused.

Gina moves away, and Ricky is hurt-- he’s dealing with his parents separating and losing a friendship he valued and his mom’s new boyfriend, but amidst this, he and Nini were able to connect again, and the feelings that Ricky got confused and started to project were brought back to their original source. He’s also confused when Gina returns, because he thought he might have had feelings for her, but he’s not sure if that’s really the case. He says “I’m not who I was a week ago,” because then, he was misinterpreting his own feelings. And then he says “Or maybe I’m just back to who I always was” NOT AS A REGRESSION OF HIS CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT, but to establish to the audience that he’s realizing his feelings for Nini never really left. His character development isn’t going backwards, and he and Nini don’t regress one another ( would episode 1 Ricky write a song using the word love and be devoted to performing in a musical? ). They’re just having trouble with communication, which is completely normal for teenagers.

Also, remember that Ricky clings to normalcy. His life has told him over and over that change is negative, he doesn’t know how to handle it. Of course this all going to confuse him-- he’s a teenage boy dealing with a lot even outside of romantic feelings. The potential to like Gina is there, but his feelings for Nini are still genuine, and that doesn’t mean he’s going backwards. If he does have genuine feelings for Gina, he’d suppress them, both because she’s leaving and he still loves Nini. There’s nothing stopping him from having complicated feelings towards multiple people, that’s completely normal. Currently, his headspace is in a state where he is still in love with Nini and confused at best about Gina-- there’s still potential there, but the important thing is understanding the characters beneath the pairings and where they are now.

#(OOOO BOY THIS IS LONG KJDFSB)#(but like...i really wanted to write it ahHH)#(hes baby i had so much i wanted to talk about here)#(like..thinking about how he probably just fully enters a complete breakdown after he leaves after everything that happened)#(idc if the show doesnt do it it still happens checkmate fhdjk)#(and i tried to keep the stuff about his feelings pretty impartial?? because i really do not have preferences it just boils down to rickys #current mindset)#(i hope its open enough idkkfjd i dont lean one way or the other i just want him to be HAPPY)#ricky bowen. headcanons / i’m really scared this time. it feels different already.

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sjecblogarchive · 7 years

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WORSHIP NOTES: PRAYING SHAPES BELIEVING

10/19/2017

BY SJECWARRENTON

WORSHIP NOTES: PRAYING SHAPES BELIEVING

By Randolph Charles

The way we pray shapes the way we believe is a core principle in Anglican worship. That’s why it’s so important to be intentional about our liturgical prayer. Is what we say and do in corporate worship encouraging our spiritual growth? Is it both challenging and nurturing us as disciples of Jesus? Is it building us up as a faith community and preparing us to be sent into the world to do God’s ministry? Let’s talk about it.

Some worshipers kneel to pray in church because they feel it is more personal and private. Other worshipers stand to pray because they feel it is more communal and relational. In The Episcopal Church, the choice is yours, and it needs to be an informed and intentional choice.

The Episcopal Church is a “wide tent” denomination. We welcome people with different social views, different theological views, different political views, different biblical views, different lifestyle views, and yet all of us are connected to a strong faith center, and through that center we are bound to each other. When it comes to corporate worship, we have lots of options because we honor the diversity of parishioners and the validity of the many ways to praise God in the Episcopal tradition.

Saint James’ Worship Ministry Team includes the following parish staff and parishioners: Hali Barbeau, Margy Eastham, Ninie Laing, Gary Shook, Norma Thatcher, Bill Turnure, Jesse Ratcliffe, Ben Maas, and Randolph Charles.

Our mission statement is the following: We are called to support ongoing worship ministries, inform parishioners of liturgical principles and options, encourage meaningful conversations, and reflect on parish liturgies so that our worship can be the best experience possible for all.

It is our responsibility to inform the congregation of the principles and options of Episcopal worship, not to tell parishioners what they should do. We are called to give worshipers the confidence to make intentional decisions about the way they worship. Choosing how to worship is the worshiper’s responsibility.

For the next several Sundays, members of the Worship Ministry Team will be available to meet and have conversations with parishioners in the parish hall during Café. The purpose of these conversations is to listen and inform, not to convince. Please join us.

#Worship #Fr Randolph #Pray

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the-conversation-pod · 21 days

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Spring 2024 Teaser

And we're back!

This has probably been our longest recording season ever thanks to the scope of projects we wanted to feature here. Some of the projects started in 2023 while others only finished at the end of March.

This season is packed with guests! Beyond the usual appearances from @ginnymoonbeam and @lurkingshan, you'll get to hear from our friends @so-much-yet-to-learn, @wen-kexing-apologist, and @twig-tea as we talk about the continued presence of OffGun and TayNew, our first dedicated GL episode, a discussion of what may be the longest running BL project, a breakdown of shows that started strong but finished weak, and a massive two-part Grab Bag episode to cover a wide gamut of projects.

You're going to be with us for many weeks, so stay tuned for our releases.

Enjoy teaser for the season.

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (thanks to ongoing efforts from @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

Ben

And we're back. We have missed you all. We are finally done with all the VIIB Awards. We're finally done with watching way too much shit this season. and we have so much to talk about. I'm very excited about this season because, finally, I won. We talked about way too much Japanese stuff this season.

NiNi

[laughs] Ben, at the end of last season in the year in review, he said definitely Japanese is where it's at going into this year. And so far looking back in the winter, some of the stuff that I have probably mostly enjoyed, to be fair, has been some of the Japanese work. So, I am on the ride, I'm on the train with you all. There will be a lot of JBL being talked about in here. A little bit of some other stuff, but yeah, a big chunk of it's going to be J-BL and J-BL-adjacent? So that's what you'll be looking forward to.

Ben

The season is one where we're talking about the history and evolution of the genre a lot. We're going to have an episode focusing on GMMTV continuing to work the OffGun and TayNew angle, and how we responded fairly positively to that.

We're going to talk about the ongoing experience from Japan via Ossan’s Love.

We're going to finally get to talk about GL in its own episode on the show, and it's not just going to be one project that we're losing our minds over here.

We decided to properly reflect on some shows that were trying to do something and did not really deliver the way that we hoped, or maybe even the show hoped, they would.

And then we're going to do two back-to-back grab bag episodes because, while there was a ton of stuff that happened in this season, we weren't able to organize them into a cute setting. So we're going to unpack some genre stuff in one episode and all of the extra Japanese stuff in its own episode because there is just that much of it.

As always, some of you sent us some questions. Thank you. And we have a new segment with one of our friends that we're really excited for you to see in the back half of the season.

I’m Ben.

NiNiI'm NiNii. Welcome to the Brown Liquor Podcast, AKA The Conversation about BL.

#ben and nini's conversations #the conversation #podcast #on art #lgbtq #thai bl #bl series #spring series #spring 2024

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shortpplfedup · 1 year

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So @bengiyo and I are doing a thing! We've taken our #the conversation tag to the audio space with a seasonal podcast on BL/GL/QL from an industry and artistry perspective. Our teaser episode is up now on Zencastr, Spotify and Google Podcasts, and will soon be up on Apple Podcasts if it isn't already (as soon as I have the link I'll add it to this post). Our winter series of 3 episodes, in which we wrap 2022 in QL and hand out our Very Important Internet BL or VIIB Awards, will be up next week for your listening pleasure. So if you're into deep dives into artistry and industry in the QL space, subscribe to us, and look out for our show!

#the conversation #on art #podcast #ben and nini's conversations

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bengiyo · 4 months

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BL 2023 Review

I wasn’t sure how I wanted to write about BL for this year. I was originally going to do a The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly framework for it, but that feels meaner than I actually am about it. Instead, I think I’ll just write out some sections and unpack some things I felt along the way.

I Watched Too Much Again

Last year I engaged with about 92 productions around the world. This year it was 99 (I tracked stuff I completed here). Sure I dropped 18 of them this year, but goddamn. The problem with watching as much as I did this year is that I worked full time this year and also maintained a separate hobby. I also continued my twice-weekly watch sessions with my friend Emily, so there are an additional 100-ish watch sessions in here of rewatching, plus a few other rewatches (Theory of Love and My Ride most notably).

One of my struggles at this point is I’m far too familiar with the genre, and find myself feeling impatient and irritable with shows that aren’t to my taste the way I used to. Throughout the late summer and fall I found myself increasingly grumpier about the genre, and it didn’t get better until I had a holiday and basically slept a day to get some energy back. I also found myself growing apart from fans I’ve known and followed a long time. It’s been a difficult year for me as a long-time fan because my tastes, habits, and friendships in the genre have changed even if the amount I watch hasn’t really.

I Wrote a Lot This Year

I recently converted my watch tag away from my gaming internet persona to just my shortname, so all near-1000 of my Stray Thoughts posts can be found under #ben watches now. I’ve also been going back and adding #ben writes to some of the standalone pieces that I really liked. In reviewing them, the pieces I’m happiest about are my ode to Framboise from Kabe Koji Nekoyashiki-kun Desires to Be Recognized, my post begging everyone to watch La Pluie, my post about what it means to actually like queer men, my SBS ep 10 post that ended up being wrong, my post about the Lavender Scare and Be My Favorite, my Tokyo in April is… post about the breaking of the BL line,

However, the two posts I am most proud of is my half-joking response about why I think tagging each other back and forth across Tumblr in our writing is so important. and The Knowing: Being Queer in BL because I had so much great conversations with folks as a result of both of these posts.

Looking back at my own blog, this is probably the most active I’ve been in my entire time on this website, so thank you to everyone who interacted with me this year, because it really is people talking to me that gets me most inspired to write things down. Big shout out to @lurkingshan who will bug me repeatedly until I blog something that I said in passing.

We Started a Podcast!

After hanging out with @shortpplfedup since Bad Buddy, she got inspired and really wanted to bring something different to the BL podcasting sphere. I had time, and liked talking with her enough, so we started @the-conversation-pod. Now we’re a full year into it and planning out future stuff. It’s been so much fun being able to get things off my soul and break poor NiNi in our recording sessions.

From this year, I think my favorite episodes we did were The Moonlight Chicken Episode, the Eighth Sense episode, the ITSAY Anniversary Episodes, The Wedding Plan episode, , and The Holiday Clip Show. Huge shout out to @ginnymoonbeam for anchoring the transcription process, and @lurkingshan for editing.

The VIIB Awards will begin airing soontm so look forward to that.

Favorite New Term: Business Gay Performance

Let’s be clear, Bump Up Business is not good. It is an obvious BL cash grab from OnlyOneOf that seeks to comment on the fake nature of BL while doing everything it can to trick the audience into believing that the BL pair is real.

Before we got deeper into this year, I was a big fan of a certain pairing, and then their fans took it too far and it affected the way I engaged with their performances and their work. I like that we have a new term for “fanservice” that communicates that you understand that this is for work. (thanks to NiNi for this comparison) I can look at the latest behind the scenes video from Last Twilight and say that I think Sea really understands the work they’re doing, and he and Jimmy have a very relaxed and mature version of BGP without feeling like I’m feeding into shipping.

Do I think they’re dating? No. Do I like the way they fake it? Absolutely!

I can look at one of @respectthepetty posts about Yin and War having personalized, color-coded mics, and we can talk about the next level BGP between the two and both communicate that we know that this is a performance.

It actually makes the extra PR work fun for me again, because now I can just shout “BGP! BGP! BGP!” and it not feel like I’m giving myself brainrot.

Thai BL Needs to Finish Stronger Next Year

Let’s get into some of the show stuff. This year was defined for me by Thai BL starting strong with good premises and then squandering them by not focusing on the details that mattered or leaning into baseless melodrama. Time for some reads. Some of these shows were generally good, but they failed at these things:

609 Bedtime Story: The world building crumpled in the back half and both endings are flat.

A Boss and a Babe: Cher is a pro gamer who worked for a gaming company and there was no plot point about this at all, or collaboration between the two groups.

Bake Me Please: Why was a show about cake so lacking in flavor?

Be Mine SuperStar: You had a real opportunity to explore a fan and idol romance and had Punn show so little growth. I hope the footage of First’s range is helpful now that Ja is out of BL.

Be My Favorite: You redid that whole amusement park date and muddled so much of what the hell happened on that day.

Between Us: You had years to make this interesting. Why are there five pairs and why is the end of this a JC Penny catalog photoshoot?

Dangerous Romance: What the fuck happened to the Sailom we had in episode 1 and 2 before that gun incident?

Hidden Agenda: Tee, what the hell was this? Twelve weeks of this?

I Feel You Linger in the Air: You may be the most beautiful show, with some of the most impressive performances of the year, but you absolutely botched this ending. Finish the goddamn season next time.

Love in Translation: I love you, but that whole kidnapping plot was so stupid at the end.

Low Frequency: I like your OST. That's about it.

My Dear Gangster Oppa: No examination about how gaming friendships become close quickly because of the combination of anonymity and teamwork (shout out to @twig-tea for this excellent summation).

My School President: Saving your gay commentary for the final episode felt like a conservative choice. I want more from you next time.

Naughty Babe: You retconned your own characters to tell a worse story. Unforgiveable.

Never Let Me Go: You didn’t know if you wanted to be a high school BL or a mafia story. It was difficult to watch.

Only Friends: I cannot believe you did Boston like that at the end. Either give Force’s character a clear personality next time, or keep him enigmatic; half measures make him and Book look worse. Sand was absolutely embarrassing. Boeing was a waste. Ending on all of them paired like that felt so unearned.

Step By Step: You forgot to ground Jeng’s external dreams at the end, so the final two episodes are just frustrating.

I’m glad I got that off my chest. We can go into the next year now.

Korea Put in the Work This Year

I really like the efforts from the various Korean studios this year. I really hope we get a Strongberry joint next year, but I want to acknowledge that we had 18 Korean BL dramas I watched this year, and at least three of them I think are must watches: Our Dating Sim, Sing My Crush, and The Eighth Sense. Beyond that, I think Love Tractor, Unintentional Love Story, and A Breeze of Love are easy recommendations.

It’s really impressive how the complaint for me this year with Korean BL is not about them using their time poorly. It’s more about normal drama concerns, where I think characterization is a little weak, or a theme doesn’t land squarely. This rapid iteration from the Korean studios is really impressive to watch, and I’m excited to see what some of the recognized players do next year.

Taiwan and The Philippines Have Been Quiet for Me

I wasn’t really able to connect with much from the Philippines this year except for The Day I Loved You. I never wrote about The Day I Loved You, but this beautiful and heart wrenching show is one of my favorites from this year. I wasn’t too keen on the Oxin Films offerings of this year, and I’m still chasing down the ones from The IdeaFirst Company.

As for Taiwan, this new BL project from the end of the year just isn’t hitting. Kiseki: Dear to Me also ended up really hurting me with the way they used Wayne Song and Huang Chun Chih. I love that angry little man with the white hair, but I’m still salty about Wayne and the general mess of that show.

Japan was Busy This Year

I watched 16 new shows, a few older ones, and a few movies this year from Japan. We haven’t gotten this much from them ever. I continue to love the Drama Shower project from MBS, and my beloved What Did You Eat Yesterday? returned this year. We had pretty stellar outings with Our Dining Table, If It’s With You, and I Cannot Reach You.

I think a third of the Japanese BL I’ve tracked on MDL actually released this year. That’s huge.

Still, I am going to side eye Minato’s Laundromat 2. You were the show that let me down the most this entire year. More than Only Friends, more than Step By Step, and even more than Kiseki. You absolutely blew it. You were telling a great story about a man with an acute case of internalized homophobia coming out of his shell and learning to love his younger partner and you blew it for stupid amnesia nonsense. I will never forgive you for this.

Where Were All the Uncles This Year?

Really, without Jim from Moonlight Chicken, and without the men from What Did You Eat Yesterday? we had an alarming dearth of older gay characters passing on knowledge and wisdom to the youngsters this year. What the hell happened?

Rare Dynamics Won: Second Chance Romance and Friends to Lovers!

We had so much second chance romance this year. It’s really my favorite version of gay romance because gays don’t always have ideal settings when they’re young. We had Our Dating Sim, Individual Circumstances, Jun & Jun, The End of the World With You, Tokyo in April is…, Be My Favorite, Love Class Season 2, and A Breeze of Love. I am satisfied.

Friends to Lovers is actually so rare in romance and we have so many to choose from this year! The best examples are I Cannot Reach You and Sing My Crush, but we also have one of the pairs in Love Class Season 2.

Gay Thoughts

I had a couple of ongoing thoughts this year about queerness in BL.

First, I want to return to my post about Sing My Crush and La Pluie, and how I assert that Men Need to Be Angry Sometimes. More than giving men grace to be righteously angry or upset about things, along with letting them express it in ugly ways, I really want to get into how we engage with these shows. I will stop engaging with moralistic reads on characters in 2024. I will no longer engage with asks, reblogs, or meta gripping the fandom where we're judging the moral fiber of the character.

The question that really only matters for me at this point is: Is this act from the character justified from their characterization, the narrative, or genre conventions; and is it interesting? Whether or not the character is good or bad reeks of the lame arguments about good and bad representation, and I am not watching BL like I’m being graded in Sunday school.

The second thing I really want to acknowledge at the end of the year is that the gay sex is finally getting better again. I watched The Novelist this year, and we have taken so long to get back to the space that show took us on the portrayal of male-male intimacy. We are in the genre about people with dicks. It should feel like it. There should be a masculine component there that feels specific to queer intimacy.

I will acknowledge 2 Cutie 2 Pie, A Boss and a Babe, Be Mine SuperStar, Bed Friend, Candy Color Paradox, For Him, I Cannot Reach You, Kiseki: Dear to Me, La Pluie, Love Class 2, Love in Translation, Love Mate, Middleman’s Love, Naughty Babe, Only Friends, The End of the World With You, Tokyo in April is…, and Wedding Plan for your contributions.

Final Thoughts

I like how broad the genre felt this year, and I enjoyed how much speculative fiction is entering into the conversation. I don’t know how I feel about there being five vampire stories in the works next year, but overall I’m glad that we’re getting more experimental concepts. I’m burnt out on the college engineering BL, and would like to see more shows about working adults.

Despite how grumpy I was for at least three months, I think this has genuinely been one of the best years we’ve ever had in the genre. I made a lot of new friends in BL this year, and I’m excited to see what comes next. Thank you all for spending some of your time with me this year and I’ll see you in the next one.

#Ben writes #best of bl 2023 #bl series #thai bl #japanese bl #taiwanese bl #filipino bl #korean bl #ben watches

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foryourart · 7 years

Photo

wImage courtesy of Pacific Design Center.

Thursday, October 5

designLAb opening reception, Pacific Design Center (West Hollywood), 5–9:30pm.

REFLECTIONS, Artamo Gallery (Santa Barbara), 5–8pm.

Lim Ok Sang, CMay Gallery (West Hollywood), 5:30–9:30pm.

Vulnerability, Young Projects (West Hollywood), 5:30–9:30pm.

Family 1st Thursday: Candy Wrapper Compositions, Santa Barbara Museum of Art (Santa Barbara), 5:30–7:30pm.

Artist and scholar walkthroughs: Myriam Gurba, Hammer Museum (Westwood), 6pm.

Cassi A. Namoda: Meat is Meat – Nyama ni nyama, Oof Books (Cypress Park), 6–8:30pm.

State of the Arts, (Long Beach), 6–9pm.

BROOKE SHADEN, JoAnne Artman Gallery (Laguna Beach), 6–8pm.

First Thursdays Art Walk, Laguna Art Museum (Laguna Beach), 6–9pm.

Anna Mia Davidson – Cuba: Black and White, Annenberg Space for Photography (Century City), 6:30–9pm.

CRAFTNIGHT: Galaxy Dye Workshop, Craft & Folk Art Museum (Miracle Mile), 7–9pm.

PHOTO17, Milk Studios (Hollywood), 7pm. $150–2,500.

SCREEN: HYSTERICAL DOCUMENT, MOCA Grand Avenue (Downtown), 7pm.

LAND: Joe Sola record launch party, Ace Hotel (Downtown), 7–9pm.

Anna Maria Maiolino: Solitário ou Paciência (Solitaire or Patience), MOCA Grand Avenue (Downtown), 7pm.

Analia Saban and Selene Preciado, 4334 Degnan Boulevard (Leimert Park), 7pm.

Threats to Indigenous Peoples in Latin America Today, Hammer Museum (Westwood), 7:30pm.

Vocal Sound Bath With Odeya Nini, Women’s Center for Creative Work (Frogtown), 7:30–9pm. $16–20.

Los Angeles Exchange [LAX] Festival, various locations (Downtown), through October 15.

Themed Entertainment Association (TEA) SATE Conference, CalArts (Valencia). Through October 7.

Friday, October 6

Teaching and Writing the Art Histories of Latin American Los Angeles, The Getty (Brentwood), 10am–5pm.

STORY TIME AT THE FOWLER, Fowler Museum (Westwood), 11:30am–12:30pm.

Surface Tension by Ken Gonzales-Day: Murals, Signs, and Mark‐Making in LA, Skirball Cultural Center (Brentwood), 12–5pm.

The Fourth World, Institute for Art and Olfaction (Chinatown), 6–9pm.

Andrew Norman Wilson: Pretense, Human Resources (Chinatown), 6pm.

Objects of Art LA, THE REEF (Downtown), 6–8pm.

The Back 9: Golf and Zoning policy in Los Angeles, Skid Row History Museum & Archive (Downtown), 6–8pm.

Anthony James, there-there (East Hollywood), 6–9pm.

Tom Allen: The Lovers, Bel Ami (Chinatown), 6:28–10pm.

Los Angeles Filmforum and Los Angeles State Historic Park present Urban Harmonies/Dissonant Cities, The Viaduct @ Los Angeles State Historic Park (Chinatown), 7–9pm.

WHAP! Lecture Series: Flicker time: liquid bodies and cosmic states, West Hollywood Public Library (West Hollywood), 7:30pm.

21st Anniversary Art of Tiki Show, La Luz de Jesus (Los Feliz), 8–11pm.

Whitney Bell: I Didn't Ask For This: A Lifetime of Dick Pics, Think Tank Art Gallery (Downtown), 8pm. $17–50.

Port of Long Beach: Annual Photo Program, Long Beach Museum of Art (Long Beach).

Saturday, October 7

Taste of Art: Visual Voyages through Latin America, The Huntington (San Marino), 9am. $85.

Tiffany Favrile Glass: Masterworks from the Collection of Stanley and Dolores Sirott, The Huntington (San Marino), 10am–5pm.

Don Bachardy Book Signing & Artist Talk, Craig Krull Gallery (Santa Monica), 11am.

Sun Prints, Side Street Projects (Pasadena), 11am–1pm.

GUTS! with Daniel Han, Pieter (Lincoln Heights), 11:30am–3pm. $35.

Live Mural Painting in Leimert Park, Fowler Museum (Westwood), 12–5pm.

soundSpark: Joanna Wallfisch, West Hollywood Library (West Hollywood), 12pm.

Kathleen Johnson: one, two, three o'clock, four o'clock rock, c.nichols project (Mar Vista), 1–4pm.

#CamerasAndDancers Workshop, Annenberg Space for Photography (Century City), 1–4pm.

BARRIO LOGOS: Displacement and Vanishing Iconography, Residency Art Gallery (Inglewood); reception, October 7, 1–6pm.

KEN GONZALES-DAY & RITA GONZALEZ Artist talk and exhibition walk-through with Rita Gonzales, Curator, LACMA, Luis De Jesus Los Angeles (Culver City), 1pm.

When the Inevitable Happens...Again: Protecting Museum Collections from Earthquake Damage, Getty Villa (Pacific Palisades), 2pm.

Aztlán to Magulandia: The Journey of Chicano Artist Gilbert "Magu" Luján and Schmitt, You and Me by Omar Mismar, UCI Claire Trevor School of the Arts (Irvine), 2–5pm.

Drawn from a Score, Beall Center for Art + Technology, University of California (Irvine), 2–5pm.

Artist talk: Pam Douglas - Sight, Marion Wood - Gravity, and Joe Pinkelman - More China, TAG Gallery (Santa Monica), 3pm.

Roaring Twenties, Homestead Museum (City of Industry), 3–7pm. Continues October 8.

#SNATCHPOWER “Fight in Heels” screening with performances by F.U.P.U. + JADEUHMAY, William Grant Still Arts Center (West Adams), 3–6pm.

FRANK ROMERO: Los Angeles Chicago, Tobey C. Moss Gallery (Hollywood), 3–6pm.

Hunted & Gathered Book Signing and Exhibition with Senon Williams, Arcana Books on the Arts (Culver City), 4–6pm.

CRAFT IN ACTION: CHILD IMMIGRATION AND SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY, Craft in America Center (Beverly Grove), 4pm.

The 18th Annual Eagle Rock Music Festival, Center for the Arts Eagle Rock (Eagle Rock), 4–10pm.

Homatorium / On Going Home Artist Discussion and Walkthrough, Charlie James Gallery (Chinatown), 4:30pm.

Dinh Q. Lê: The Scrolls: Distortion, Shoshana Wayne Gallery (Santa Monica), 5–7pm.

2017 Artists Council Exhibition Opening Event, Palm Springs Art Museum (Palm Springs), 5:45pm.

Sharif Farrag: Smokeless Fire, gallery 1993 (Downtown), 6–9pm.

Van Hanos: Late American Paintings, Château Shatto (Downtown), 6–9pm.

Teresa Braula Reis: White Helmet, Baert Gallery (Downtown), 6–9pm.

Josh Atlas: support, for beginners, elephant (Glassell Park), 6–9pm.

Benjamin Lowder: Phoneme, Open Mind Art Space (Santa Monica), 7–9pm; discussion, 6pm.

By the House of the Matriarch: New Works by Rachid Bouhamidi, leiminspace (Chinatown), 7–10pm.

¡Fiesta Cubana! Fall Benefit, Pasadena Museum of California Art (Pasadena), 7–10pm.

Film Screening with Paul Pescador, Angels Gate Cultural Center (San Pedro), 7pm.

Voices of the Xtabay: A Tribute to Yma Sumac, Hammer Museum (Westwood), 7:30pm.

Karen Sherman/Soft Goods, UCLA (Westwood), 8pm.

Angel City Jazz Festival, REDCAT (Downtown), 8:30pm.

PUMP 2017: Multi-Sensory Arts Festival, (Long Beach). Through October 21.

Sunday, October 8

It’s Just Capitalism – Grant Writing 101, Women’s Center for Creative Work (Frogtown), 12–3pm. $60–75. Also October 12.

FAMILY JAM: MID-AUTUMN FESTIVAL WITH UCLA’S MUSIC OF CHINA ENSEMBLE, Fowler Museum (Westwood), 1–4pm.

soundShoppe, Center for the Arts Eagle Rock (Eagle Rock), 1–4pm.

OC Film Fiesta Special Tribute: Visions of Magulandia: The California Journey of Chicano Artist Gilbert ‘Magu’ Lujan from Los Four to Mental Menudo, Santa Ana College Main Art Gallery (Santa Ana), 1–6pm.

OOEY GOOEY Slime: A CraftLab Family Workshop, Craft and Folk Art Museum (Miracle Mile), 1:30pm. $5–7pm.

Studio Sunday on the Front Steps: Candy Wrappers, Santa Barbara Museum of Art (Santa Barbara), 1:30–4:30pm.

Artists in Conversation with Ben Caldwell, Fowler Museum (Westwood), 2–3pm.

Listening Party: Hamza Walker & Alex Becerra, private home (Pacific Palisades), 4–8pm. $75–125.

Mary Corse at Art Catalogues, LACMA (Miracle Mile), 4pm.

Shadi Yousefian, THE SPACE by ADVOCARTSY (Downtown), 4–7pm.

David Hendren performance, Five Car Garage (Santa Monica), 6–7pm.

Closing reception, The Neutra Contemporary 2017, Neutra Institute Gallery & Museum (Silver Lake), 7–10pm.

Puppetzilla Puppet Slam!, Steve Allen Theater (Hollywood), 7:30pm. $15.

Monday, October 9

Japanese Teahouse Tours, The Huntington (San Marino), 11:30am–3:30pm.

Visiting artist lecture: Schmitt, You and Me by Omar Mismar, UCI Claire Trevor School of the Arts (Irvine), 12–1:30pm.

CDMX: Music from Mexico City, Walt Disney Concert Hall (Downtown), 8pm.

Laura Poitras: Short Film Disclosures, REDCAT (Downtown), 8:30pm. $6–12.

Tuesday, October 10

Giovanni Bellini: Landscapes of Faith in Renaissance Venice and Sacred Landscapes: Nature in Renaissance Manuscripts, Getty Center (Brentwood), 10am–5:30pm.

Film: Dracula (Spanish language), LACMA (Miracle Mile), 1pm.

Laura Aguilar: My Story, USC Roski School of Art (Downtown), 6–8pm.

2017 AxS Gold Crown Awards, ArtCenter College of Design (Pasadena), 6–9pm.

Paula Williams Madison: From Harlem to China, California African American Museum (Downtown), 7–9pm.

East Asian Garden Lecture - Representations of the Camellia in China and the West, The Huntington (San Marino), 7:30pm.

Gerald - A Epic!, Lyric Hyperion Theatre & Cafe (Silver Lake), 9pm. $15–25. Through October 14.

Wednesday, October 11

Beers of Belgium, The Huntington (San Marino), 5pm. Sold out.

SCREENING: CIDADE DAS MULHERES (2005), Fowler Museum (Westwood), 7–9pm.

It’s Just Capitalism – Grant Writing 101, Women’s Center for Creative Work (Frogtown), 7–9pm. $60–75.

Boosting Your Side Hustle With Jade Phoenix Martinez, Women’s Center for Creative Work (Frogtown), 7:30–9:30pm. $25–30.

Nevins Lecture - Scars of Independence, The Huntington (San Marino), 7:30pm.

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matterprints · 7 years

Text

Connected Clothing: Jennifer Nini

Jennifer Nini is a writer, activist and the founding editor of Eco Warrior Princess - an online platform discussing all things concerning eco-fashion and a green lifestyle. Her journey to sustainable and ethical fashion is one where intention meets mindfulness. As action creates impact, Jennifer and her partner decided to move from city to farm to start an organic food venture while cultivating a permaculture farm and food forest. From what she wears to how she lives - Jennifer Nini makes a conscious decision to actively be a part of the solution.

What is your intention behind what you wear and what you buy?

Process and material are just as important as style. I seek first clothes that are well designed, and made sustainably and ethically. The main motivation is that I want the clothes I wear to be biodegradable, not just because it feels better on my skin but because of its impact. What this means for me is that I usually buy natural and organic fabrics, like organic cotton, lyocell, tencel, hemp, and bamboo - plant based materials that are built to last and transeasonal. Of course, bamboo isn’t as eco-friendly because of the way it’s spun but I trust that over time, it will be improved.

When I’m adding pieces, I know what my non-negotiables are. It has to be sustainable and ethical - from process to product. Living on an organic farm, I’m committed to wearing fabrics that are sustainable because I see first hand what the impact is from that - and so I’ll steer away from anything synthetically made and created with chemicals. Aside from sustainability, I’m also passionate about the ethical aspects of fashion - it’s important to me that the garment workers, farmers, and people involved in the supply chain and production are paid and treated fairly.

I tend not to buy very frequently, when I need an item I try instead to look for secondhand options first. Where a brand gets me is the story, if they practice what they preach and value their positive impact in the community and the environment - then I’m more inclined to support them.

When I say that it’s something I’m passionate about, it’s not just a superficial statement. This really is my life and purpose.

Tell us more about your journey to ethical fashion, was it a change that happened over time? How did this come about?

Like many modern women, I grew up in a time of fast fashion. This generation is the first where fast fashion has completely taken a hold of the industry, before that I would say that conscious fashion and respect of the garment and trade was more important. I did a Fashion Business course and in that time my business partner and I went to China in 2008 on a mission to start our own fashion brand. In our time there, we learned about the background of fashion - everything behind the scenes, beyond the glory and beauty of aesthetics and advertisements. We travelled around South China, in cities like Shenzhen and Guangzhou to look at the different factories and got a glimpse of the industry that one rarely gets to see. We never did get the fashion brand off the ground, but it was still a significant trip for us. It was the key changing point for me where I really thought about my clothes, who made them, the factories involved, and the way the workers were treated - this was the catalyst to my journey with ethical fashion.

Growing up, I had always been politically active - my parents fled from the Philippines because they felt that the government was corrupted and the President ended up stealing millions of dollars. I learned from a young age that it was vital to stand for social justice. I had always been going to protest marches, but I never thought about fashion in that same light. To come back from that trip in China was an awakening for me, and I started talking to anyone who would listen. My partner encouraged me to start a blog and so I did - that’s how Eco Warrior Princess came to be.

The name Eco Warrior Princess is a tribute to the fact that I was living in cosmopolitan Melbourne and about to make my move to a rural area of 300 people where I would live in a tent for 4 months. I left Melbourne because I wanted to start producing my own organic foods. The farm runs 100% on solar power, it’s sustainable, self-sufficient, and we recently received our organic certification - our life has completely shifted to a more primitive sort of lifestyle but I love it because of its low impact. There’s 40 odd varieties of things that I grow - from mangoes to nuts. It’s a cross of two worlds, cocktail parties and organic farms. I moved to the country to live off the land and be one with nature, and it’s taken me several years after to learn more about what this lifestyle really means. When I say that it’s something I’m passionate about, it’s not just a superficial statement. This really is my life and purpose.

What are some of the items currently in your closet?

Actually, I don’t really have a closet - not in the conventional sense anyways. 3 years ago, my partner and I bought a farm and we’ve since yet to build one. What I use instead is just a tall boy - a set of drawers to hold my clothes. I figured since I don’t really have many clothes, I don’t exactly need a closet. I have a highly curated selection of clothes, it’s completely minimal with only the necessities. Most of them are pieces that I can wear easily with others, secondhand pieces, and gifts that I’ve received through Eco Warrior Princess.

What would your ideal wardrobe look like?

Most people might not agree, but I would say my ideal wardrobe is the one I have now. When I look at it, there’s nothing that I would consider adding. The only thing I can see myself needing would be a pair of gum boots for the farm. Every 6 months, I sort through what I own and make sure it’s curated properly so that I’m not holding onto anything that I don’t need.

Vintage pieces are my weakness when it comes to curating my closet - it’s like a collectible for me. I have high respect for the construction and uniqueness of the garment, they’re one of a kind treasures that you won’t be able to find anywhere else. I tend not to buy multiples of anything, I’m not looking to buy repeats - I prefer pieces that are unique in look and history.

What do my clothes say about me as a human being and the identity I created for myself today?

What statement do you want to make with the clothes you wear?

Clothes, for me, are a sense of expression and an artistic endeavor. Everything I own is highly functional and versatile - it’s an expression of who I am first and foremost, then what I stand for. Because of the industry I’m in and the values that I’m passionate about, what I choose to wear goes beyond the surface of how it looks on my body. That might be the first conversation shared, but the more important one to consider is - what do my clothes say about me as a human being and the identity I created for myself today?

If your house is on fire, what are the five pieces you would save - even if it meant running back into a burning house?

Definitely my vintage dress, it was an old 1960s style dress that I found in a shop in Melbourne. I brought it to a tailor to get the sleeves cut off and it’s one of my go to pieces. I’d also grab my leather skirt, a secondhand vintage piece I bought 10-15 years ago (before I made the decision to go vegan) and it still fits me perfectly. My engagement dress would be another to take along, the year I got engaged I didn’t want to buy anything new - even for my wedding, and so I found a vintage dress from the 1950s and got it secondhand. I was lucky to score it and till now, I still wear it on other occasions. There’s a pair of skinny jeans that I got as hand me downs from my niece, she was going to get rid of them but I saw it before she did and grabbed it. I was on the lookout for a pair of black skinny jeans and since then they’ve been a staple. The final thing I would grab is an old hoodie that I’ve had since I was 16, it was my first boyfriend’s basketball hoodie - it’s a sentimental piece to me because he’s since passed away and it’s something of his that I have to hold on to.

Sustainability isn’t just about consuming what’s there, it’s also making sure that you’re consuming someone else’s waste.

What advice do you have for those who want to build a more sustainable closet?

Sustainability is such a broad topic. I think the first step is to focus on what’s important to you. What is important to you - veganism, locally produced, natural fabrics, workers’ rights? What are the key factors and values that matter most to you? If you’re able to define what that is first, then it’ll be easier to break it down into something that’s easier to tackle later on.

Do your own research! Some people find it difficult, but there’s a lot of apps and platforms available like Project Just where you can check up on certain brands. Research before you make a purchase.

Always look for secondhand stuff before making a brand new purchase. Sustainability isn’t just about consuming what’s there, it’s also making sure that you’re consuming someone else’s waste. It’s a part of sustainable fashion to shop secondhand - to reduce waste that goes into the landfill. Try first to purchase something secondhand, and only when you can’t then buy something new.

All photos were taken by Ben McGuire.

We began with the intention to inspire consciousness in our everyday, to cultivate a culture that encourages others to uncover where and why something is made. The Connected Clothing series spotlights on different individuals in the fashion industry - why they wear what they wear and the significance behind their choices.

Read the rest of the series here.

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the-conversation-pod · 6 months

Text

In Your Lavender: The Wedding Plan Episode

AND WE'RE BACK!

We originally planned to discuss Wedding Plan alongside a few other shows but abandoned that quickly when we realized we both had a lot to say about this show. Come join us as we discuss whether MAME has shown growth, what it means that the lavender marriage term has existed for over 130 years, the importance of lesbians in this story, and the fundamental nature of the closet.

If you've been missing how heated Ben gets, now's your chance!

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

01:16 - Intro 03:00 - Wedding Plan and MAME's Previous Crimes 15:18 - Realities of the Closet and Fandom Misunderstanding of the Show 29:23 - Things We Love About Wedding Plan and Final Ratings 37:26 - And Another Thing! The Wedding Plan Special

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes. When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

01:16 - Intro

NiNi

Welcome, welcome. [sighs] Go ahead.

Ben

Oh no, it's fine, you said welcome, I'm not going to do it this time. They won't get it for the Wedding Plan episode.

NiNi

[laughs] All right. Welcome, welcome to the—

Ben

I'm just kidding! And we're back!

[both laugh]

NiNi

Welcome! to the episode that was supposed to be a secret admirers episode, but instead is now the Wedding Plan episode, because everything else was a bit crap. We wanted to talk about this because we could not believe that this came fully formed from the head of MAME, of all the creatives. We were shocked, I think, but…the fandom was also kind of shocked, and we'll delve a little bit into how that played out when we get into the segment but, when I looked at the trailer I was like, ‘mm, okay, this could be cute.’ Did not expect to be…devastated, emotionally [laughs] at certain points.

Ben

I don't really think I watched the trailer properly. I went in a little bit hostile, because MAME’s got a whole thing for boundary crossing. And I was worried going in that this show was just going to be about some rich guy punking around his wedding planner, and then like, cheating on his wife. And that's not the show we got at all.

NiNi

Let’s dive into it so you can hear what we had to say!

03:00 - Wedding Plan and MAME’s previous crimes

NiNi

We are talking all things Wedding Plan. Now Ben, you and I had agreed sometime back that no matter what happened we were never going to talk about a MAME show on the podcast. And here we are [laughs] talking about a MAME show! And there's a really good reason for that.

Let's start by talking about what Wedding Plan is about. Ben, do the honors.

Ben

Wedding Plan is a story about a wedding planner named Namnuea, who is the ace at his event planning company, and a fan of McDonald's, who very much sponsored this show. He is tasked with planning the wedding for a very attractive man and his soon-to-be wife. Complications ensue immediately, because their wedding is coming up in three months and these two have no idea what they want to do for their wedding, and only the groom is the one making the choices.

We can tell very quickly that the groom, Sailom, is flirting with Namnuea; Namnuea is not stupid and picks up on this. The attraction between them is very mutual, but the complications around him being a client and a groom frustrate Namnuea. The reveals that eventually come out make this show to be way more than just a closet case trying to hit on his wedding planner.

NiNi

Reveal the reveals, because I feel like it's impossible to talk about this show in any meaningful way without knowing what the twist is.

Ben

Right! So Sailom and Yiwa, his bride, are in a lavender wedding. So for well over one hundred and forty years, we've had a term to describe queer people choosing to present themselves as heterosexually entwined for mutual benefit and safety. In this case, Sailom and Yiwa hail from fairly wealthy families that are extremely restrictive. The two of them recognized their own queerness at a very young age, and understood that they needed to hide that information. While on a trip in Europe the two of them recognized the queerness in each other when they both had a strong emotional reaction to seeing two women publicly kiss. And then became each other's best fucking friends for life, and decided to protect each other. Yiwa ends up developing a very meaningful romance with a woman named Marine, and she convinces Sailom to marry her so that they can both get out from under their families. They have a long-term plan to divorce.

So when Sailom is flirting with Namnuea, Yiwa is 100% aware of it, and extremely supportive of it, because she doesn't want her friend, who she treats like a brother, to be lonely all the time.

NiNi

That basically sums it up in terms of the mechanics of the plot. But guys, the reason that we're here talking about a MAME show, is, this hit me right in the fucking throat, man. It was so real, in a way that I've never gotten from a MAME show. It felt like MAME almost apologizing to BL for some of the shit that she's done? It felt like MAME trying to gain some understanding and learn some shit, and show that she had learned some shit?

Ben

Just so that we get a bunch of stuff out on the table for listeners: what are some things that MAME has done that you think she should apologize for? [laughs]

NiNi

Ah, [laughs] where do I even begin? MAME work tends to lean very heavily into…traumatizing already traumatized people? I have mixed feelings about a lot of MAME’s work. There are sometimes I'm just like, oh fuck you. And then there's sometimes where they're like, I see where you're trying to go with this but you didn't have the skill. And then there are times I'm just like, ma’am, get the hell out. Something like this that I don't have any mixed feelings about, I just feel strongly positive about it…it's never happened to me before with her work, not ever. And it made me recalibrate in my head—a little bit, because it's still only one show—maybe where I should place MAME as a creative.

Ben

I have a list.

[both laugh]

NiNi

Go on ahead! Read!

Ben

Let's start with Love By Chance. There are four goddamn couples in Love By Chance. Only one couple is remotely stable! We really only talk about Ae and Pete, because we do not need to talk about the other three. MAME loves to question the line between crossing boundaries and romance. There’s Tin and Can, who were the focus of Love By Chance 2—

NiNi

Which I did not watch.

Ben

Then there's Kengkla and Techno, and Kengkla is paying Techno's brother for information on him to eventually date rape him—I mean, that happened in Love By Chance! Then there's Tum and Tar, who are brothers, and Tar was a victim of horrendous acts by a character from TharnType. Moving on to TharnType, a show that I will not watch, for multiple reasons, some of them fandom related that we are not going to get into in this podcast. But the idea that Tharn is going to teach Type that he's actually into men without his consent? Yikes. I don't care how it ends up resolving. The wall is real fucking high for me on that one.

Ben

Didn't they have a spinoff with the other guys from Don't Say No? I'm not talking about that. Then we get to Love in the Air, which I mostly enjoyed, but why do both of the ukes in that show have to get kidnapped in their final episodes? [laughs] Why? It's so unnecessary! Rain and Sky were straight up kidnapped as the final complication of their show. It's insane.

NiNi

I did not watch Love in the Air. So every time you say that I'm just like, ‘that's a thing that actually happened?’

Ben

So this is the difference with Wedding Plan. Wedding Plan is so straightforward. There is no major complication to Wedding Plan. Everything that happens in this show flows naturally from the base conceit that two people involved in a lavender wedding are dealing with some difficulties and frustrations as that approaches, and then make logical choices for their characters, in response to everything that's going on.

And it kind of surprised me how much I ended up really loving this show. It's interesting for me that Yiwa and Marine’s relationship is the reason why the wedding is occurring. I've never really cared about heterosexual weddings in a lot of these shows and stories that I watch, but I feel so much about the way Lom and Yiwa care about each other and protect each other. Lom is agreeing to this sham wedding that's going to eventually lead to a bunch of complications in his life, because he's trying to protect his friend.

Normally in a story like this, there'd be all this tension about the groom struggling with his sexual identity, and what he wants for himself, and the girl's going to get hurt along the way—‘he feels loyal to the girl, we can't just do her like that!’ In this show, Lom is withholding information about the specifics about his relationship with Yiwa from Namnuea because he's protecting her. The crux of the romantic drama of this show was about a gay man in the closet protecting a gay woman in the closet.

NiNi

Yiwa and Marine's relationship is the key to the whole story, but the relationship between Yiwa and Sailom is the core relationship. The fact that they're doing this for each other, the fact that they care about each other so deeply, the fact that they basically decided long ago that they were the people who mattered to each other…and then as people come into their lives who are maybe somebody they might be interested in building a life with, it becomes a decision for everybody as to whether this person gets let in. I would have loved to see how it went when Yiwa decided that she wanted to be with Marine. I understand that's not the point of this particular story, but I would have been fascinated to see how that played out.

By the time we join the story Marine’s on the inside. She's 100% bought in. Marine has made the decision to be in the closet with Yiwa, which is sad in one way, but it's so freeing for them in another, because of what Sailom has done for them. They can be happy. And they are happy! They're happy and they're in love, and they're part of this family of the two of them and Sailom. It made me smile just watching them be with each other as a family unit. And then Lom meeting Nuea. When you're going to bring somebody into a secret like that, you have to be 100% sure. And not just you, everybody has to be on board with it. [laughs] It's not polyamorous, but it's—polyamoresque [laughs] I guess is the best way to describe it. Everybody has to be on board with what's happening. It's not just a question of ‘do I like this person?’ It's a question of ‘is this person a safe person?’ It's a question of ‘do the other people involved in this like this person?’ It's a question of ‘is this a person who I can share this secret with?’ but it's also, as it comes down to later in the story, a question of Lom knowing that he couldn't ask. He couldn't ask Nuea to be a part of the secret. He could just tell Nuea what was happening, and he could just hope and pray—and I don't even think that he dared to hope. And I think that's what the crying was about when Nuea decided that he was going to become part of the family? Lom broke down when Nuea said to him, ‘I'm going to help you keep your secret.’ Because he knew he couldn't ask it of him. And the fact that he freely offered it just brought Lom to tears.

15:18 - Realities of the closet and fandom misunderstanding the show

NiNi

This show is amazing. The show is emotionally sound, the show is beautiful, and I got so mad [laughs] watching this show get misunderstood. And if I was mad, Ben was incandescent. [laughs]

Ben, you take the floor and tell ‘em why you mad, son.

Ben

I'm going to talk about the closet for a little bit. It felt like a lot of the people who are reacting to this show have not been in the closet. I was in the closet for 11 years. Your brain does not work in the same way on the inside, and I'm going to say frankly to anybody who thought Lom should have told Namnuea a lot sooner than he did? When you've been in the closet for 13 years, you do not tell someone you have a crush on, in two months of knowing them. Not when the stakes are as high as they are. The reason they're in the closet is because there will be severe and painful consequences for failing to maintain a heteronormative status quo.

The big thing that separates Lom from Namnuea is, Namnuea is out. The truth about who Namnuea is cannot harm him. Namnuea develops feelings for Lom, and tells his boss. And she says, ‘there's nothing wrong with you having a crush on the guy, like he's hot. You know what the professional boundaries are though, do you need me to step in and take care of this for you?’ and Namnuea said no. When Namnuea fell for Lom, before they hooked up, he called his mom and said, ‘mom I think I fucked up.’ And she's like, ‘sometimes we fuck up baby boy, come home if you need me.’ And after he hooked up with Lom that's what he did! He went home, and he told his mom flat out: ‘the thing I told you about? Yeah I think I went too far.’ And she held him, and let him be a mess about it, because she understood that he already knew that he put himself in a really untenable situation, and she didn't pile on. They protected him. Namnuea can be honest about who he is, and whenever he tells the people who matter to him about something that happened, they close ranks around him and protect him. At the point at which Lom is trying to chase after Namnuea, every woman in his life pulled out their claws and was ready to slit that man's throat. They were all ready to throw hands with this man!

But when you're in the closet, your brain doesn't work right. You are under constant surveillance to maintain the heteronormative veneer over your life. The show does not make this hypothetical. Their friends and family are snapping pictures of them in public, and questioning every relationship they have with someone other than Lom and Yiwa. Lom is sitting at the table with Marine—Yiwa stepped away for a work call, and someone’s snapping a photo like, ‘why is Lom on a date with this other girl? She's trying to steal Lom from your daughter.’ Or ‘I saw Yiwa hanging out with her best friend, are they gay? I took some pictures and now I'm telling your mom.’ When you look at the reason why these two are so vigilant about being in the closet, that's literally what they're experiencing! It's super heavy-handed in this show, but it is exactly the kind of shit that I lived through. Being in the closet because you know that there are consequences and there are dangers breeds hypervigilance.

And I'm going to say it really plainly: all of the really negative takes I saw about Lom that were really unsympathetic to what this man went through? Made me, as a 30-something year old gay man who survived being closeted, really extremely uncomfortable. And I really need you to reckon with whatever you were going through that made you turn on a closeted gay man, and view him as the evil aggressor party in this particular relationship. Because goddamn!

The reason why he chose Namnuea to be his wedding planner was because he had a crush on him! And when you're in the closet you need plausible deniability. Lom is toeing the line. He can hang out with Namnuea and flirt with him, because he's talking to his wedding planner. Nobody's going to question him being around a gay man, because he's his wedding planner! And that's what the homos do, is they plan events for the rest of us! Because they're very good at it. The reason why he's being an irritating client is because he wants Namnuea to talk to him more. If he's a good client, Namnuea’s not gonna talk to him! Because Namnuea’s professional, and busy.

And Lom admits it. He says in episode…6 I believe, because I just rewatched again, that hiring Namnuea was just, in his mind, a little bit of fun before he got married. He would flirt with the guy that he had a crush on, even if it's a little fucked up to do that, and have a little fun before his wedding. He was not expecting to fall in love with Namnuea. But he's got a competency kink! And Namnuea is so good at his job. And he likes his job! He likes seeing people happy at the things that he planned for them, and he takes care of people. Lom loves these things in Namnuea. This even played out in their sex. He was happy that Namnuea was not a virgin. Very tasteful, sir.

NiNi

It being MAME, I will confess, that up until maybe somewhere around the beginning to middle of episode 4? I wasn't sure where they were going with this.

Ben

Let me tell you, I was waiting for her to do some convoluted bullshit as of episode 7. [laughs] They're like, ‘the bride’s run off!’ and I'm like, there's really only one way this should play out. Closeted people make plans. Yiwa is also not stupid. There’s this moment in episode 6—and this is again intentional, the editing on this show is actually really crisp. We get the really poignant scene on the bridge, where Lom talks about the knowing, and Namnuea’s like, ‘we need to fuck right now.’ And then, if you have access to iQiYi, they did! And then we get the scene where Namnuea agrees to be in the relationship, and all that that means.

The very next scene is Yiwa’s mom showing up at Marine's apartment to accost her and slap her. Which is immediately followed by Yiwa running back to the condo, and the way she enters that apartment? She genuinely thought that Marine might have left her. For as happy as they seem, Yiwa never underestimates or undervalues the stress that she's putting Marine under. When she enters the room and Marine hasn't run away, but is just laying in bed, clearly spent from all of this? That's the moment that breaks Yiwa. And then we flash forward three weeks to the wedding, and she's run off with Marine and leaves a note.

Lom knows her! He was not phased by this at all, when—after he's done putting on his jilted groom act, he's laughing. He's like, ‘I know what that cheeky girl did, I can't believe she did this without telling me. Look at this stupid note! I can read between the lines.’ [laughs] And then they call her, and she's like, ‘I knew you would understand my note. That's my boy, don't fuck this up! I'll take this on for you.’ Yiwa takes on the social pariah role here, of being the lesbian who ran away the day of the wedding, leaving Lom at the altar, ‘how dare she?’

The power here is that Yiwa doesn't give a fuck anymore. That's the whole thing about heteronormative shame: it only matters where you can exert that influence over people. Yiwa and Marine said, we cannot exist the way we want to, so we are leaving and going somewhere else. That is a choice a lot of us choose to make: to leave our home communities, to go build community with other people elsewhere. And then she gives Lom the ability to spin that, to soft launch his relationship with Nuea. Because they don't come out as a couple for like six months after that. They put on the act of Lom being a drunken mess for months—he's fine. He's just spraying alcohol on himself and then going to work with his hair unkempt.

NiNi

Episode 7’s so delightful. But anyway, continue.

Ben

And he's just hanging out with Nuea, and he just tells people, ‘yeah, we bonded over the wedding stuff because we had a lot of work to do really quickly for the wedding, and you know he felt sympathy for me afterwards. And he took care of me at a really difficult time, and I feel comfortable with him. I loved Yiwa, she was the only woman I was ever willing to marry.’

Not a lie! But also not the exact truth.

NiNi

I loved the big lie at the end, because it was basically Lom, Yiwa, and everybody in the situation putting two giant middle fingers up at their society, and the people around them. Aside from the people who, as you rightly said, would have protected them anyway. So all the women in Nuea’s life, and the people who he works with at the wedding planning company—basically the people who earned the right to know the truth know the truth. And everybody else gets two giant fucking middle fingers and the big lie.

Ben

It's a little bit like the ending with Bad Buddy, about them breaking up publicly but still being together? It's the same question: who is allowed to know? Something for you to think about, if you didn't get this show and you hated Lom and all this sort of stuff—ask yourself if the queer people in your life trust you. Would you be brought in? Would you be trusted with this information? Lom's mother realizes along the way what was going on the whole time, because she's not stupid. And she says quite plainly—because Lom has not properly come out to her yet, he's been hinting at it, he's like, I feel comfortable with him—and she says, ‘I'm still doing what I need to do to process this, but just promise me you won't leave.’

What she recognized is that she was playing a zero sum game that she could lose. That her son could make the same choice as Yiwa. She recognized that he and Yiwa were likely withholding important information about themselves, from their parents, for a really long time. And that can be really unsettling. It's something I went through in my family when I started coming out, that people were very put off by how I just…hid hugely important portions of my life from them, for most of my life. And she recognized that if she pushed too hard, she would get nothing.

NiNi

It really is the Bad Buddy conundrum, because this is where their parents are at the end, where they know, but if they're not willing to fully be on board? Then they don't get to fully know. And they don't get to be fully involved. Lom's mom knows, but until and unless she's willing to wholeheartedly accept Nuea there will always be now, at this point, a barrier between her and her son. All she can ask of him is that he doesn't leave. But beyond that, she doesn't get to ask anything of him, until and unless she is ready to fully accept every part of who he is. I can't believe that came from MAME's pen.

29:23 - Things we love about Wedding Plan and final ratings

Ben

Something else I really love—I really love the community around Nuea, particularly his family. I love when he goes back to Chiang Mai, and he sees that his little cousin is also out and proud now and has a hot boyfriend. And I love that Sun, Ryu’s boyfriend, is immediately engaged in in-law solidarity with Sailom. Nuea’s family hates him, and he's like, ‘valid.’ Like, ‘If you want to stay here, you got to work.’ ‘Okay.’ And he just works. Nuea's family is protecting Nuea from someone who they think doesn't respect him. Everything mean that they're doing to Sailom is because they are protecting Nuea, and it's really not that much, what they're asking. They're basically just giving him a difficult time, until Nuea decides what to do with him. But Sun is helping him the whole time, he's like, ‘this family's very difficult, I got you bro.’ And that pairs really well with the phone call that Nuea has with Yiwa and Marine, where Yiwa is like, ‘Lom and I do love each other. That is my ride or die: it's been me and him for a long time. I'm not going to pretend that he is not the most important man in my life, but he's not who I'm building my future with.’

And I love that for Yiwa and Sailom, it is love between them. The heteros just misread it. They don't have to fake an admiration for each other. I love that Marine talks to Nuea, and talks about the sincerity of their feelings, and how she's okay, at this point. Because she's the only person that Nuea can really accept any sort of perspective from, and I'm really glad that they had that moment and that was just them.

NiNi

I love that in that moment she doesn't try to convince him of anything. She just says, ‘I can't tell you what to do. This is a crazy situation: here's what I accepted about this, here's why I accepted it. These people are good people.’

Ben

Right! She says their love is sincere.

NiNi

‘Yeah, but whatever decision you make I completely get, because I made my choice. You're gonna have to make your own choice as well.’ She spoke to Nuea very candidly, and I truly appreciated that, and I think that Nuea definitely appreciated that too.

Ben

I love the reveal about Sailom's hands always being cold because he was nervous.

NiNi

Ehhhh [laughs] It was one of those romance things that I'm just like ‘eh!’ about, but it was adorable. It was.

Ben

I really like Pak in this role. A lot of the times when MAME writes her ukes, they tend to be a little bit on the demure side, and they usually need a stern counterbalancing presence for them? I really like that Nuea did not need that at all. I also liked how queer Namnuea felt. He very much feels like a gay boy.

NiNi

I love stories about love and family, and this is one of the ultimate love and family stories. For me, and I can't believe I'm saying this, when it comes to love and family, it's going maybe a half step behind Moonlight Chicken this year for me? I can't believe that just came out of my mouth about a MAME show. But that's really truly how I feel about it. For me, it was a 10.

Ben

I ended up giving this show a 9.5. It's one of the ones that's going to linger with me for a while, and I think a big part of it was just how much everyone else really hated the show. I think we went into this show with a lot of MAME blinders on—I knowingly went into the show hostile. I don't really like a lot of what MAME does. But, respectfully, watching a MAME show—the writer famous for writing romances about boundary crossing—and being mad that her characters are crossing boundaries? Is a little bit disingenuous of a place to write your criticism from. That's her shtick.

Nuea crosses those boundaries too! Nuea had agency, and I really resent the way a lot of the takes damsel him and make him seem powerless. He's not! He is the one with all the power here. It's why Sailom is pouring everything he can into, every time he says ‘I like you, Nuea.’ Sailom is such a sap, and y'all really hated that man. And I really need y'all to reckon with that. Like if you listened to us and you hated Sailom, please, examine your life. [laughs]

NiNi

I have a smidge of sympathy up until episode 4, for anybody who struggled a little bit with Sailom. But only up until episode 4. Because somewhere to the beginning, middle of episode 4, it was very clear what they were driving towards? And then at the end of episode 4 when Sailom and Nuea hook up for the first time, I said to myself, ‘Okay. I see where this is going.’ And then when they get to Chiang Mai, and Sailom finally tells Nuea what happens, because Marine and Yiwa have given their okay, and Nuea said, ‘Duh. Clearly that's what's going on, I already knew that.’ Nuea wasn't fooled by Sailom.

Ben

No, Nuea basically guessed 90% of it accurately. The only thing he didn't really guess, was that they were both in on it. Let me say this as well while we're here: in terms of queer solidarity, Namnuea never once outed Yiwa when he caught her out with Marine. He did not mention that once. Not at all. He ain't tell none of his hoes. He ain’t tell none of his people. He caught those two out, was like ‘oh shit, is my gaydar broken?’ And then he didn't say shit about that. He didn't even hold that up in his whole thing with Sailom. And I respect the fuck out of that man for that, because that’s not his thing to say.

NiNi

The show is amazing.

Ben

It really is.

NiNi

It's, for me, an easy cruise into some type of VIIB Award at the end of the year.

Ben

It's gonna be a difficult year for us, when we're sorting out acknowledging the incredible work that's been done, but this is one of them.

NiNi

Delightful, emotional, deeply gratifying, deeply satisfying. Ben gave this a 9.5, I gave it a 10, let's call it a 9.75.

Ben

It can get a 10 from The Conversation.

NiNi

You heard it here first, folks: Ben says it can get a 10 from The Conversation. MAME gets a 10 from us, and nobody is more surprised than us—

Ben

It’s true.

NiNi

—that that is a thing that happened [laughs] on this show.

Ben

I feel so intense about this show. I get so mad about the discourse around Sailom. He's one of those characters, like, if you don't like him? I don't like you. Fuck off.

[both laugh]

NiNi

And that’s…a word!

37:26 - And another thing! The Wedding Plan special

Ben

And we're back! I have so much more to say, I am not through. [laughs]

NiNi

So before we get into Ben's ‘and another thing!...’ Let's talk a little bit about the Wedding Plan special, because there was a special episode, that cost $8.

Ben

[laughs] I paid $7 for my rental.

NiNi

However much it costs, it costs money. Which I'm slightly salty about because MAME had McDonald's money on this, she didn't need ours.

Ben

In her defense, she has done this on literally every show. Except for Love by Chance…and Don't Say No.

NiNi

McDonald's money. That's all I'm going to say.

Ben

And she cashed in! Good for her.

NiNi

[laughs] Anyway, so let's talk a little bit about the Wedding Plan special. Ben, tell the people what it was about.

Ben

The show's fucking called Wedding Plan. It was the fucking wedding, guys, let’s—we're not going to beat around the fucking bush on this one. It was the wedding for the gays! It was really beautiful. The basic premise is, the guys have been dating properly for what feels like a year, year and a half at this point. They're taking a trip to go back to see Namnuea's family. Before they leave, they have one final check-in with Lom's mom, where she meets Nuea properly as Lom's boyfriend. She doesn't take it very well, but Sailom does not give a shit.

Meanwhile Sailom is working with Wiwa Square to organize a secret wedding for Namnuea. Hilariously, Im still does not like Sailom, and I thought that was an excellent character detail. So they go and travel back to the north, and Sailom has Nuea taking him around—I think they were in Chiang Mai?—to check out sites and locations while everyone else has moved to Namnuea's house to set up for this wedding that Namnuea doesn't know about. Lom proposes to him, they end up having the wedding the next day. It's this incredibly beautiful ceremony, it’s very traditional Thai, I believe. There's more I want to say about some of the stuff that happened at the wedding, but that's the basic premise: Lom organizes a wedding for Namnuea, and his friends plan it in secret. Which I actually think is lovely for a wedding planner, that he didn't have to plan his own wedding.

NiNi

That's the crux of it. You guys know, I am not the one the two or the three for these weddings. I believe in marriage. I believe in the importance of marriage. I am generally not a fan of the weddings. But, this one? It was beautiful, I do have to say. It was a beautiful wedding, everything around the wedding was beautiful. When I was talking about Wedding Plan in the main part of the show, I was talking about how much I love love and family. And that was what the wedding episode was about, it was love and family. Yiwa and Marine were there at the wedding, being Sailom's family, because while his mom is starting to come around to Nuea, she's still not there yet. So she doesn't get to be a part of this. So Yiwa and Marine are his family. They show up for him. They are hosting on his behalf. It's beautiful. It's just so beautiful.

Ben

I did not praise Pakpai enough in our recording; Pakpai’s reaction, as Nuea, to Yiwa appearing before him, for this wedding that he had just found out about? Is one of the most perfect expressions I’ve seen all year.

NiNi

Because he hasn't seen them since they left for England.

Ben

I am a gay boy who believes in community. And believes in gay people taking care of each other. And that means that I have worked in solidarity with lesbians. And it is such a beautiful thing for me, in this year of really good shows, to see two lesbians in a critical role in the lives of gay men. There's something so special about the unconditional, ride or die love between Yiwa and Lom, and how that extends to Marine and Nuea, and creates this very special little family unit. I cannot overstate how important it is to me that Nuea almost cried because he was overwhelmed with emotion getting to see Yiwa in front of him again, and for a wedding that he had just found out about. That was his first reaction: awe, and then he burst into tears because he loved her so much and had missed her for that long. That is so beautiful!

As for the other things in the special…The ceremony itself is really beautiful. There's a lot of really great moments in there. There's this very special moment between Namnuea and Im, where she comes to pay respects, and he takes her hand, and he says ‘I love you’ in this way that conveys a very special history between the two of them? That sent me over the edge and I burst into tears right away. [laughs] I do not know what those two have been through together, but that ‘I love you’ was one of the most effective I love yous I have ever experienced in this genre, and it was not between romantic leads at all.

NiNi

We always go up for the non-romantic I love yous in BL. lt's the Jim and Li Ming thing all over again. Namnuea’s co-workers being there for him at his wedding, the way that they put it together for him, the way that Marine and Yiwa stepped in to be Lom's family, the way Nuea’s actual family stepped in as well. There's a gorgeous scene, after the actual wedding ceremony, where they do—I suppose this is another traditional part of a Thai wedding, which is a bedding?—where Nuea's parents are with them in the room, and talking to them about love and commitment and marriage, and that's the part that put me into tears.

Ben

It was really funny, because like we had not really seen any of the dads in the show. Moms were a big deal in the show. Nuea’s dad is just this sweet man! It was overwhelming for me, how just beautifully sweet this man was, and the way he was pouring love out to Sailom, because he's like, ‘I never thought Nuea would get to have this.’ Nuea, the wedding planner, who spends so much of his time trying to make sure other people's dreams come true? I was floored by his dad just being there: ‘I just wanted my son to be happy, and I'm so thankful that you were able to do that for him.’ And I was like, ‘I don't know who you are sir, but good job!’

NiNi

It was really really gorgeous, and just so many other things…also the stuff that's happening between Sailom and Nuea. The way that Sailom proposes, and the way that Nuea knew it was coming but he still got surprised by the way that it happened? That was gorgeous. And then again, after the wedding and after the bedding, when it's just the two of them in the room, and Nuea does the thing where he pays respect to his husband? And says that that's something that he always wanted to do? The way that these two take marriage so seriously, and especially the way that Nuea feels about it. Because like I said, Nuea is a wedding planner; he sees weddings every day. He sees these rituals and ceremonies and everything every day. And I can just imagine him sitting thinking to himself, ‘one day, one day, and this is something that I want to do with my husband, and this is something that I want to do with my husband’—I can just imagine that. And then meeting Sailom and falling in love with Sailom and actually getting to marry Sailom, and being able to do that, and the way that he is so emotional about that. Mmh! Got me right in the feels.

The reason that I tend not to like weddings is because a lot of the time I find them so artificial, so stage managed and overproduced. I'm talking about this not just in terms of weddings in fiction, but weddings in real life. So, watching something so sincere, something so genuine, something so personal… t’s a production, yes, all weddings are, but it was real! Everything about it was so real, it was so emotional, it was so…[sigh] it was great. It was fantastic. I thoroughly enjoyed that. I cried more than once watching the special. It just added to the joy of discovering Wedding Plan and this whole little universe and these characters.

Ben

There was a lot of little stuff happening around that. Like, one of the things that I think MAME is actually pretty good at, is really caring about her supporting cast in a useful way? She's very good about understanding why that character is there. There's Yiwa and Marine getting to have a private moment, being a little bit sad that they didn't get to have this, a Thai wedding with the people who love them around them. And I like that they got to have, like a quiet bitter moment about that. And I like that they didn't put that on Lom and Nuea, it's not something that they need to be consoled about, it's just one of those things that hurts about being queer sometimes, and that's part of the choice they made. They did take on that hurt, to give the boys a chance to be together, but it still hurt, and I like that the show never forgot that. This show cared about its lesbians, they mattered to this story, they weren't there just to check off boxes to make sure that we covered all of our bases. They were still telling their story.

I love Sun and Ryu listening at their goddamn bedroom, and then having to be chased off. Great comedy. But also I loved it, I loved that there were younger gays excited about gays slightly older than them getting to have their moment together. It was such a special execution of that.

I genuinely like that the Wedding Plan special episode is treated as a special episode. I like where the show ends for itself. I like thinking about the wedding as a special epilogue for the story, and not necessarily as the actual finale of the story. I think it's better as epilogue content.

NiNi

I have to agree! So all in all, when it comes down to Wedding Plan, looking back at it now, I think we definitely stand by how we felt about it. I think that… I have, you know Ben has, gotten even more in love with it? And even more, I think, defensive and vocal about it, because it's good! It's just good. And I don't like people saying it's not! That's it for me.

Ben

This is the number 4 or 5 show of the year for me.

NiNi

Yeah, there you have it.

Ben

Currently it's behind—in no specific order because we're not at the VIIB Awards yet—Moonlight Chicken, My School President, La Pluie, and probably The Eighth Sense? It's that good!

I am in this genre for queer cinephile reasons. I am here to connect with people for gay reasons. I'm not in this for, like, taboo, or to see cute boys kiss each other because it's titillating in and of itself. I exist as a queer person, it informs my decisions on the regular, and it was such a relief to see characters that were not incidentally gay, so that we can imagine two idols bumpin’ uglies.

I really love Sailom and Namnuea so much. Sailom got updated to blorbo status so quickly. Every week I'll just send NiNi a gif of Sailom and be like, ‘they really hated this man!’

[both laugh]

NiNi

He's not even kidding, this literally happens.

Ben

[laughs] It’ll just, just be a great gif that somebody made of Sailom and I’ll be like, ‘they really hated this man!’

Something else I want to say quite plainly here, and I would like you, as listeners of the podcast to reckon with this—and I would really like to talk about this, so please talk to me on Tumblr about this: Part of why I think Wedding Plan did not hit for people, is that Namnuea doesn't look like a girl, and doesn't behave like a girl. He behaves like a kind of femme man, and he feels very gay, in a way that is distinctly masculine. Additionally, the show doesn't really conform to a seme-uke dynamic very well, because Namnuea does seme things—like I noticed in episode 2 that he does a kabedon on Sailom. And I know that bothered a lot of the people who are obsessed with loyalty to the tropes. Namnuea is so self-assured, and I don't necessarily think that that resonated for the people who are in this for BL reasons and for regular romance beats. And I wonder a lot if that was their big problem.

I would really like to have a secondary conversation with the folks who listen to us about this particular dynamic, because I do think it's worth us unpacking why people—as much shit that gets talked about MAME—refused to engage with the show. This is legitimately one of the top queer narratives of the year. And we snubbed this show. I have watched people talk shit about MAME and her writing for five fucking years, and when she writes a whole show that is basically the byproduct of all of our feedback, we snubbed it! When MAME returns to her roots, I don't want to hear none of y’all who snubbed Wedding Plan saying a goddamn thing about her.

NiNi

I'm so mad at you for saying when MAME returns to her roots. Like this was clearly a fluke.

Ben

She's gonna be like Jafar! She's going to be like, ‘let's see how snakelike I can be, bitches!’

NiNi

So you definitely are of the view that this is not a change for MAME, this is just a detour.

Ben

I don't know! I don't know, like I was not expecting Wedding Plan. This show has so much goddamn heart to it, and it was gay! In a real way!

NiNi

I think you need to start subscribing to my vibes-based scoring method.

Ben

What? Absolutely not!

[both laugh]

Nah, it's always about the recommends. Legitimately, it's a 10 recommend. Everyone needs to go fucking watch this show. This is essential viewing for this year. This show represents a fascinating growth point for MAME; because we've criticized her for five years and she made something that is one of the most wholesome gay things I have ever watched in the genre. And we snubbed it, and threw it away.

To the cast of Wedding Plan: you all did a fantastic job, and I hope you all had a really fun time together. I want to thank every single one of you for the work you all did, because you all collectively created one of the most compelling community support systems I've ever seen in queer TV, truly. Especially to all of the women who are on that cast. BL women get messed around a lot, and don't often get to do a lot of great stuff, and every single one of you did a fantastic job.

NiNi

That is going to wrap us up on the Wedding Plan episode. We out! Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben

Y’all better watch this fucking show. Peace.

[both laugh]

#podcast #lgbtq #wedding plan #wedding plan the series #thai bl #bl series #MAME #ben and nini's conversations #the conversation #on art #season 3 #fall #fall series

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the-conversation-pod · 4 months

Text

Bottom Dementia: The Only Friends Episode.

Kicking things off for year 2 of The Conversation is our Only Friends episode. We brought back a friend of the podcast, David (@yankeebastard), to discuss the various cases of bottom dementia in this show, our thoughts on the sexual and social politics of the show, and how shipping and fandom culture complicated the entire experience our watches.

We'll end this episode with @ginnymoonbeam returning with us months later to see how we still felt about the show

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

0:00 - Introduction 1:20 - Only Friends and What We Liked 13:47 - What We Wanted from the Show 26:40 - Where the Story Breaks Down 38:40 - Bottom Dementia™ 47:38 - Do Not Take Only Friends Seriously 51:00 - Final Thoughts (Two Months Later)

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

0:00 - Introduction

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

1:20 Only Friends And What We Liked

Ben

And we're baaaack!

NiNi

Welcome, welcome to our winter series. It is so nice to be back with y'all—I'm saying back, but we're literally recording this on the day the Fall Lagniappe went up, because this is how we do it on this podcast.

This is the Bottom Dementia episode.

David

Oh my.

NiNi

[laughs] You can hear our special guest, say hi David!

David

Hiii!

NiNi

David is back with us!

Ben

You are literally back by popular demand, David, the people were like, when is he coming back?

[everyone laughs]

David

I need to stop fucking around with my Tumblr and just be on there.

NiNi

I'm not sure you want to be on there, like legit, but—[laughs]

We are here to talk about Only Friends! We're here to talk about the high highs, the low lows—and they were some lows for sure. I’m gonna let Ben do what he do.

So Ben: What is Only Friends about?

Ben

Oh man. How do I describe Only Friends now? So much of how I feel about it has been clouded by how it ended. Only Friends is a messy drama about a gay friend group nearing the end of college, as they deal with some of their… issues with sex and romance? At least that's how it felt at the beginning? Only Friends has this group of homos who hang out at their local gay bar. You've got Mew the virgin, Boston the slut, Ray the drunk, and Cheum who is sort of like the lesbian wrangler of their group.

Boston introduces this guy named Top to their group to flirt with Mew. Mew falls for Top—Boston was not expecting this, because he was just trying to smash with Top again. He causes a bunch of problems, but ends up in his own side romance with a very weird but kind of sweet boy who does not understand healthy boundaries, especially when it comes to digital space?

David

Oh lord.

Ben

Ray ends up involved with the singer at the bar—who can't sing that great, sorry First.

NiNi

God it was bad.

Ben

It harkens back to the kind of dramas that were happening around twenty-odd years ago, like Queer As Folk, Noah's Ark, and some other shows that Jojo referenced, some of which I haven't seen. But it struggles for me, because while all of those were fairly episodic in nature, this one decided to be a serial, and concerns related to the actor pairs and the economic viability of said actor pairs, I really feel muddled the waters on the back half? And so while there were a lot of really great stylistic moments in this, it ends up feeling kind of limp at the end, in a way that was very unsexy for me.

David and I watched it together, it was one of our Saturday shows. David, it's been a while since we had you on the show: why don't you give us some of your reactions, thoughts, and feelings about Only Friends?

David

Hm, let me see. Only Friends can best be described, in my personal opinion, as a ledger against the evils of monogamy… how unhinged gayness serves really only ever one person and that's the unhinged gay themselves—but hey, it's entertaining!... the apparent gay police state we live in, where if you do anything and it gets recorded, it becomes a psychodrama later… In short, I thought I would only end up not liking one person at the end of Only Friends? But the entire show can go through a recycler for me. That's where I am with it.

NiNi

So we've got Ben sort of general wet floppiness of it all, David saying ‘fuck them’ at the end. [laughs]

David

Yeah.

NiNi

[laughs] Let's see, where did I land on it? I had an incredibly cynical read on this show, and one of the reasons that I had a cynical read on this show is A) it was just fun; B) Ben, you talked a little bit about this hearkening back to some of the queer shows of the early 2000s. And that made sense for me, because the characters are of the here and now, but the creators, Jojo and Ninew and them, they’re my age. Well, slightly younger than me, but around that 40-year-old mark, elder millennials, so to speak. So that's the stuff that they were watching when they were the age that these characters are now. So it has like a weird juxtaposition, the show, where it's of the moment but also deeply nostalgic in some ways? So it was a very interesting experience for me watching it.

Like I said, I enjoyed being real cynical about the show, my reads on Top clearly got people mad pissed. [laughs] I was enjoying the show on the ‘everybody is awful’ tip, and then like one or two characters surprised me at the end by being not so awful… but I was having a good time right up until the end.

Ben

So why don't you go through the things that you enjoyed in the show then, since you came out of it less ambivalent than the rest of us.

NiNi

Less ambivalent is the word, because I was having a good time and then I was pissed. [laughs] There was no in between. So it was not really an ambivalent feeling, it was like a high high and then a crash.

Some of the things that I enjoyed, let's see. I enjoyed, low-key how terrible everybody was. So much of BL tries to make characters really likable. I'm not sure if the show was trying to make the characters likable—if it did, it failed, which was great for me because I didn't really like any of them [laughs]. Except for at the end, I liked Boston and I liked Nick, but other than that, I was just like ‘oh these people are terrible, yes, inject it into my veins!’ So I had a good time with that. I had a really good time with all the aesthetics, the style of the show, like you said throwing back to that early 2000s late 90s kind of vibe in terms of the set dressing and the set design, in the way that everybody's wardrobe played out, and just the entire vibe of the thing. Very Jojo, thoroughly enjoyed that.

I really enjoyed the acting. As much as coming down towards the end I didn't really enjoy the writing, the acting I thought was incredibly solid across the board. Not even so much the big acting, because there were like a lot of these big emotional moments, there was a lot of crying—I mean, First and Khaotung were in this, there's gonna be crying—but that's not the stuff that I was enjoying, it was the little subtle details. Like Khaotung’s playing Ray, Ray is an unrepentant drunk, and Khaotung really sold Ray being drunk all the time. It was like, little things that he was doing, it wasn't anything big, that really sold me on the fact that hey, this dude is not ever sober, and you can tell. I liked Book in this a lot. Which is weird, because I hated his character, I hated Mew so much. But I thought that Book really sold this kind of sanctimonious priggish character really really well, I actually really enjoyed that. And then of course Neo Trai and Mark Pakin, just, *mwah* chef’s kiss, fantastic acting work.

I think in terms of the enjoyment levels, that's where I landed. Everything else I'm a little bit more, hmm, okay, there's a positive and a negative about, but those were the things that I really really enjoyed.

Ben

David, before we get big into tearing this thing up, why don't you tell us the things you did enjoy along the way?

David

I actually did like the Melrose Place 90s aesthetic that was going on with the show.

NiNi

Yeessss, Melrose Place, that was it!

David

There is no way that anyone is going to tell me that these two people did not watch Melrose Place. Even some of their shots were very Melrose Place, Beverly Hills 90210-ish. Their little main area, where they would have the drama explosions were always at the bar, that was very much a Melrose Place thing. I enjoy unhinged—I'm trying not to say the other word—

Ben

Just go ahead and say it. You know you need to.

David

I enjoy a healthy dose of unhinged fa**otry. I live for it. More than likely, my second or third favorite performance in any show will be the show's most unhinged fa**ot I will love him. He could be evil, he could be killing people, but I'm gonna find something to love about him.

Ben

And who is that for you this time?

David

Oh Lord! Look: I love Boeing. Boeing was completely unhinged, I saw too much of myself in that boy. Unhinged. Sir you cannot hop like this. I need you to calm down. He completely sold that whole… soulless, like sort of just, gross performance. I love Boeing.

Ben

Mond Tanutchai was a gift that we were not expecting.

David

And that show did not deserve.

I thought the show was beautiful, it was colorful—me and Ben have had this conversation before, how since Vice Versa I've noticed that more. We don’t have this cream, beige, taupey writing-out of color, we've returned to this really rich tapestry, and I felt the show did that, which was also, I didn't realize, very 90s. So the color of the show, the way it was filmed, how it was produced, was great. And like NiNi said, it was great acting.

Ben

For posterity: David has caught up with BL very aggressively in the last year and a half. Thailand has been reintroducing rich color into their shows since the post ITSAY wave began, with You’re My Sky. Vice Versa does not get credit as the show that introduced color into this shit.

David

Fine.

NiNi

[laughs] Ben's like, fuck Vice Versa, fuck it forever.

David

I can’t even defend it.

Ben

That’s not me digging at you, just, for the people who've been following the timeline of BL, that does not go to Vice Versa. Absolutely the fuck not.

NiNi

Ben says no, you don't get to have this! You don't get to take this—[laughs]

David

That's fine, that's fair. But there are a few things that I thought were things I liked about the show, that, when I thought about, I went, ‘I did not like this as much as I thought I did.’ And the only character I liked at the end of this was the one who ended up being the unredeemable one to me. Because I kept thinking about it, and I got a lot of what he was going through. I thought he totally got vixen vamped by the weird, shitty, forced monogamy thing that the show was beating everyone up the head with, while at the same time simultaneously showing everyone how none of these characters are making it work.

Ben

Are you talking about Boston? Just for the sake of the listeners?

David

Yes, Boston.

NiNi

It was so weird to feel that coming off the show, but it wasn't coming off the show from the beginning.

David

Mhm.

NiNi

Somewhere like, into the third act is when that whiff, that eau de straightness started coming off the show. [laughs] Everybody started feeling the weird shift, they were like, ‘what is this? Are they—but they're not, Jojo wouldn't.’ You know what it feels like, it feels network-interferencey? That's genuinely how it feels. Because the front half of the show is so tight. It does not feel like the back half of this show. The back half of the show feels like somebody came in and said, ‘Nope you can't do this, do something else!’ and then they scrambled and tried to do something else that sort of lined up with what they had done before.

David

Yep, I completely agree.

13:47 What We Wanted from the Show

Ben

Before we talk about the weird shift that happens, let's talk a little bit about what we hoped from the show on the front end. Like when we sat down to watch the show, we were all coming at it from different places, what were we hoping for? Let’s start with you, NiNi, because you were dealing with a lot of other shit at the beginning of this show, so you weren't maybe watching it as intensely as you were by the time we got to the end.

NiNi

Oh no, I was fully here for a messy mess, that was all I was hoping for. Like David, I wanted to see some unhinged gays. I wanted something like Cruel Intentions or, like a Wild Thing. I wanted to have a good time. I didn't want to think too much, you know, that was my mantra for [laughs] a lot of this year, I don't want to think too much. And then I wind up thinking too much.

But that's what I was aiming for, I was aiming to have a good time, I was aiming to cackle. I was aiming to gasp. Before the show made the weird switch, I had thoroughly enjoyed being right about every character, but wrong about the narrative. [laughs] That was the thing that I really came to it for. I came here, I perched my little feet up on a pouf, I hit the button on the remote, and I was like, okay, show me the mess. And they started to, and then they pulled back from it.

Ben

What about you David? What were you hoping to get out of Only Friends?

David

I was expecting we were going to get way more of an adult, complicated thing about people's feelings and how sex played into it… Maybe we're gonna get a multi-couple, and this show was gonna do some stuff that no one else had done before. And at some point that collapsed.

Because I could see the ways that they could have pulled this off with certain characters, and showed some characters empowered to be that? But the full tilt boogie of Mew becoming the most sanctimonious, boring fucking part of this show and Top having the personality of cardboard, and Ray just being a drunk who clearly is never gonna learn his lesson, and Sand being a simp—what started out as being sort of complex characterizations, when we got to the very end, I was just sitting there like, what the fuck?

Ben

All right, I'm gonna be mean.

NiNi

Go for it!

Ben

I really hoped that this would be Jojo and them’s attempt to get less focused in their whole serial soap opera style dynamic, and I was really excited about the title cards early on, that they were going to have really strong internal arcs for each of these episodes? And that's not what we got. We got just an ongoing stream of mess from a bunch of maladjusted young people. I really hoped that some of the class things would play out because there were differing levels of wealth, and they did very little with that. I really hoped that a lot of these actors would get to play against their type for once, and do some really interesting stuff, and they did not. While some of these GMMTV boys are good, we have seen their body of work, and they are basically doing the same goddamn thing every motherfucking show.

David

Well! Go on, pastor!

Ben

First has only ever been a grumpy simp, in every fucking show he's in. Like, we love the boy! He's very expressive. He can be very funny. And it's kind of annoying that he has played like five different goddam versions of the sad sack simp now. I was really hoping that we were going to get to see him do something interesting with the fucking baseball bat, which implied that his character was going to make an active choice for once. That's the crux of the missing baseball bat stuff: the bitch who picks up a baseball bat? She's over it! She's going to smash something. She is committed to a choice, and destruction is the only thing that will sate her blood lust at this point.

[NiNi laughs]

And we never got that! Like, we literally end on First’s character calling himself a dog happy that he has a nice owner. What the absolute fuck was that?

Khaotung always plays the super-cute provocateur. They just made him super rich this time and let him be drunk all the time. Khaotung plays it well, but like we’ve seen basically this out of Khaotung repeatedly. I’m kinda over it.

And then poor Force. I think this show did a genuine disservice to Force. He does so much good work playing Top. Like, he fully committed. I understand the show’s choice to make him enigmatic because we were primarily reliant upon Mew’s POV, and because Mew could never feel secure in his connection to Top, they did not let the audience feel secure about Top. That is not a bad choice from an editing or directing standpoint, but it means that Top is so empty of a character. He only represents status to Mew.

I think Book is a fairly limited actor, and I think Jojo and them used him well as the sanctimonious bitch of this group. That was really cool in the front half. The fucking virgin who reads too many fucking books playing games they ain’t ready for and then winning stupid prizes as a result. That was fucking great, but it feels like the show wanted us to take the drama, as it happened from Mew's perspective, super seriously. But I cannot take a character like Mew seriously.

I don't think Lookjun was treated well in the show because Cheum is a goddamn mess of a character. Jojo was tweeting about her in a way that seems like she's supposed to be the lesbian wrangler saving these gays, but she is so mean to them.

And you get Boston. Boston did deserve some of the Ls he took, like when he got kicked in the chest and thrown into the pool with Mew jumping behind him trying to drown that motherfucker? He deserved that. That was some bullshit, you should have known better. However! Did Boston deserve to be the victim of revenge porn and blackmail three times? No. No he did not. I feel some kinda way about the way the back half of this show is just everybody saying ‘at least you're not as bad as Boston’ as everybody is doing nasty shit to each other.

David

In the name of the god of monogamy.

Ben

I'm like, goddamn, where is all of this fucking moral superiority coming from because Boston likes to get his dick sucked? What the fuck is wrong with the rest of you?

David

He never lied to anyone that he was having sex with; he told them, “Look, I don’t want shit. There's other people. This is what's going on.” And I felt like he was put on this pyre to monogamy that didn't even function—as a matter of fact, it was made even more glaring that it wasn't even working for the other characters because by the end of the show, they're all together—but barely. The fucking show ends with Mew flirting with another fucking dude in front of Top.

NiNi

Here's the thing for me. I see a way that this show carries all of the same narrative beats, but changes the tone, and works so much better for me. I don't actually have a problem with the couples ending up together. If you're aiming for a messy story where people end up in relationships with people who are the worst people for them, or they end up in a relationship where as we say in Trinidad, “Every bread have their cheese.” Jamaicans say, “Every pot have a cover,” you know what I mean?

[David laughs]

My favorite version of the MewTop relationship is Mew putting Top through hell because he's a piece of shit. Every time I got even a hint of Top being miserable—but still being there—and Mew deciding that he was gonna put Top’s balls in his purse and carry them around; I enjoyed that! I really enjoyed that ‘cause that's not a relationship dynamic you get to see in TV, but is incredibly realistic. There are so many, so many couples I know that are just like that and it's horrible to be around, but it's low key entertaining.

If the show had leaned into that, that would have been, strangely enough, more enjoyable, cause I don't need to believe that these characters [cutesy voice] ~are in love and they're going to be together forever~. I don’t need to believe that. I need to believe that they make sense with each other. And them making sense with each other is not a question of them being nice people or good people or being good for each other. It just seems that the way those two puzzle pieces fit together is great because they ain’t making nobody else miserable along the way.

Even the stuff that you were saying, Ben, about Sand being a simp and, as I said, having a humiliation kink. I have seen so many Sands and Rays end up together. It's exhausting to watch it happen because they get into a cycle and keep doing it over and over. But I mean, if we're only going through one iteration of the cycle, it could have been entertaining because we're not gonna have to see them doing the same shit over and over. We just see the disaster once and then we're like, “Ooh, child. Glad that's not me.”

That's where I wanted to land on this show, because that's where I thought they were going in the beginning. And then at the end, for it to descend into this kind of sappy, lovey-dovey, aren't-they-cute-and-sweet shit. That was the tragedy for me. That was what pissed me off. Not that they ended up together. The ship, couple, pair-branding, ship, whatever. I didn't care about any of that ‘cause as far as I'm concerned, I could see ways for those particular characters in those particular couples to end up together. But it felt so inauthentic. It felt unreal. It felt uncanny valley. It felt Stepford. I did not like it.

Ben

Exactly. The inauthenticity and the unearned feeling of it all is really what pissed me off. So when Mix’s character appears at the end and drops the line that Top said to Mew: “Can I be your friend, too?”

NiNi

And Top’s soul leaves his body? [laughs]

Ben

Like that would have landed if Top felt like a real person to me, but the show never gave us interiority for him in a way for me to care about how he feels in that moment. The show spent so much time its finale punching down on Boston for being disloyal sexually with people. And then like there's this goofy-ass victory lap. “Look at all these couples together!” Sand literally says, “I don't even know why I'm here.” Then Mix’s character walks in and it's like, oh, oh, there's trouble in paradise. I was like, “What the absolute fuck is the show?”

How do we spend so many episodes castigating Boston for enjoying sex, and then we end on this nonsense? It was so shitty and I'm still not over the way they ended things for Boston and Nick. I don't think Boston and Nick should have ended up together, but I really hate that they don't get a poignant ending that owns the complex incompatibility that is going to keep them from working out. Instead, we end on a final shot of Boston, alone and dejected on the side of a nondescript street. [big sigh]

26:40 Where the Story Breaks Down

Ben

Boston is not an ethical slut. He introduced a guy to his friends to fuck with his friends. He brought Top around just to fuck with Ray. And then he got pissed because Top got serious about Mew, and he didn't care about Mew or respect Mew, and so that's why he fucked Top.

But they don't really build into whatever the real beef is between Boston and Mew. We can project things into it. We can sit here and try to come up with meaning for why these people are together. Best I had was you just don't have a lot of options when you're homos. These are your friends. You stumble into a group of gays and you deal with it. That could be fine, but I really wish for all of the talk that this show was “only friends” that we really understood the function of this friend group and the nature of betrayal here, other than, “You fucked my boyfriend. Blah blah blah.”

NiNi

The back half of the show was missing a really good bitch. The front end of the show, Boston is the one out there pushing people's faces in their shit, and then the back half of the show he's like a little kicked dog. Boston is fucking terrible, but he was the truth teller, and that's what I was looking for, I guess, in the back half of this. And I hoped that Boeing would be that character and then that fizzled out.

David

I can tell you when I think the narrative shift actually happened, and I've thought about this. I feel like three or four characters did things that seemed wildly out of place for their character. Even though we knew that that recording was going to get out somehow—that was a foregone conclusion. It being Sand…did not feel right at all. Ray finding out about the recording, and releasing it, was totally where I saw that coming from. But Sand being the one that did it is when it had a narrative shift to me that did not make sense.

Ben

You know what? I think it is that episode, because the way Boston responded to being confronted by Ray.

David

Right! I was going to say that next.

Ben

Where did that demon in him come from? Why does he feel so strongly about Ray like that?

David

Right! The more I thought about it, that is the episode something happened, some conversation in the writers room. Something happened somewhere. I firmly believe when they originally wrote that somehow Ray got ahold of the recording, and he directly took that recording to Mew. It does not make narrative sense to me in the way that they've presented Sand that he would have done it.

And that whole episode and the episode after were people doing things that didn't make any sense for what we knew about the character up until then. Like when Boston loses his shit on Ray—didn't make any sense within the context of what was going on. Had he unloaded on Mew? Totally would have made sense.

Ben

That's what I wanted to see. I really wanted to see the crux of the differences between Mew and Boston really come to a head properly, and instead we get Boston yelling at Ray, “You're no better than me!” and then Mew decks Ray so that he can do his own ‘gotcha bitch’ moment with Top.

That was incredibly unhinged. I liked the follow up for that where Mew was like I'm gonna get all of these bitches, and then he concocts his plan to get Boston’s sex tape just to be morally superior to him. That tracked completely for me. [laughs]

David

Oh oh yeah.

Ben

But like that's also sort of where the huge breakdowns occur because they make that confrontation primarily about Mew getting one up on Boston and making Boston grovel, but I just feel like we never really understood what the deal was with the two of them, because clearly they both felt some kind of way about the other but they never really express it to the camera.

NiNi

That's the problem for all the fights that there were between Mew and Boston, I still don't have any sense of why they don't like each other.

David

The thing that bothered me the most about this? My favorite part of most of the shows is friend groups that are ride-or-die for one another. You don't fuck with them. That's my girl. That's my boy. We gonna help you creep to him, but there gotta be rules. Unhinged friend groups that are down for one another like Secret Crush [On You]. Those kids sincerely fucking loved one another. We've seen good friend groups.

This friend group. Why the fuck are y'all around one another? Mew doesn't respect Boston. Boston can't stand Mew. And at some point, you think they would have explained it. Like, maybe there was some guy that Mew liked that Boston fucked. I could see that in such a way that Boston doesn't even remember what dude it was.

NiNi

I could even see just Mew hating Boston because Mew thinks he's a hoe, and Boston responding to that. But that doesn't even become part of the conversation. They're in this friend group together, but they hate each other. Okay. I can see that happening, especially when you're in college. You end up hanging out with a bunch of people, including this one bitch you can't stand. That's a thing. It occurs.

Ben

I wish we had really gotten at the envy that Mew definitely felt about Boston.

NiNi

Yes! There's like a seething envy between the two of them, and not just on Mew’s side, on Boston’s side as well. What I thought it was going in was that there was this weird kind of love/hate where they're mad jealous of each other, but they're also mad judgy about each other.

Ben

If this were like an American show, where we thought we might be getting more seasons, the two of them would definitely have the weirdest raunchiest sex scene at like the 60% mark of a second season.

[NiNi laughs]

NiNi

Their beef predates Top, but the show made their beef about Top.

David

I feel like Boston has actually wanted to fuck Mew for awhile. I think, too, that he knows he can't get Mew; that's never gonna happen. Conversely, I think Mew wants to fuck Boston and cannot handle or deal with that, because he's created a veil around himself that is so righteous, so sanctimonious, that to even do that would shatter everyone's notions of who he is, and I think he turns that annoyance and anger about that situation towards Boston.

I think they both want to fuck each other and the other one doesn't realize that the other one wants to fuck them. But if you look at it from that viewpoint, everything else makes sense. That they are fucking attracted to one another and Mew can't let it happen because of the picture he has painted of himself, and Boston can't look like he wants it because he knows he can't get Mew.

NiNI

This is some of the stuff that I thought the show was playing with: self-image and our ideas about ourselves, and the way that we want to project certain things and maybe hide in our hearts what we really want. That's one of the things that I definitely thought the show was doing with Mew. Maybe Mew’s a hoe at heart, maybe he wants to be everything that Boston is, maybe he wants to fuck Boston. It's this weird thing, but it just never gets addressed. And then it gets glossed over entirely in favor of this being somehow about Top.

This shit ain’t about Top!

David

Oh no! Top is definitely an ambulatory penis.

[NiNi laughs]

As a great philosopher named Benjamin Tiberius once said: Dick is abundant [NiNi in unison] and low in value. This could have literally been any other dude. The primary powerful personalities in this friend group are Mew and Boston, and they are such strong personalities at opposing poles that they are constantly fracturing that group. Those other personalities in that group are not strong enough to counteract that.

Ben

Speaking of other personalities in that group, let's talk about Cheum and how much I fucking despise her.

NiNi

Do we have to talk about her? [laughs]

Ben

Oh yes we do!

David

I was ready to defend Cheum until Ben turns around and goes, “But she's, like, mean.” She's consistently mean. And she gets away with it because she's the girl of the group. And in a lot of ways, she's as much of a status hopper as fucking Mew is.

NiNi

She is the one who started pushing Mew towards Top. Boston brought him around, but she was the one who was like, “Don't you wanna sleep with a top-tier dude?”

David

Yup! Yup!

NiNi

Girl, you, what? At one point in time, I thought that she was the shipper analog in this show because she is treating these boys like her Ken dolls that she's leaving around on the lot. Girl, go fuck your girlfriend and leave these boys alone. That's how I felt about it at one point in time. And then when she's sitting crying on the couch because the police have busted up her little party because Ray loved that booger sugar.

Ben

As her friends are being literally arrested by the cops, she takes that moment to go the fuck off on Ray.

NiNi

She makes that whole moment about her.

David

Yup.

Ben

That was so gross. And then she tried to weirdly play solidarity with Boston at that moment? “You don't care about me and Boston.” Me and Boston!

NiNi

There's a you and Boston?

Ben

I wish Boston had been fucking Atom at that exact moment and looked up like, “Who said my name?”

[David and NiNi laugh]

David

You imagine Boston just looking up and going, “I felt a baleful presence. What the fuck was that?”

NiNi

[laughs]Oh my God.

Ben

It was so ridiculous. And she's like, “Oh, boohoo. These boys were mean to me.” Like, you are a lesbian crying on your girlfriend's shoulder because gay boys were mean to you? You ain’t strong enough. Get out of here.

David

And let's all talk about that. Now, bitch, don't pretend like you didn't know that Ray was basically Guns ‘N Roses in your goddamn party. Bitch, don't play with me. You lie to God. Don't lie to me. There ain't no way you didn't know that boy had pockets full of booger sugar, booze, ketamine. Don't play in my face like this, please.

Ben

Ray is also so embarrassing. You really wanted Mew that bad that you let him use you just to piss off Top. And then you spend half your time running around calling Sand a whore? Fuck Ray for always calling Sand a whore.

NiNi

And also, if he's gonna call you a whore, and you're gonna be okay with that because Sand is always somehow forgiving of that, then at least take the motherfucking money.

Ben

He did deserve financial compensation for having to put up with that entire friend group.

38:40 Bottom Dementia™

Ben

David, let's talk about Boston and how his bottom dementia drove him insane and that's why he had to fuck Top so bad.

[NiNi laughs]

David

I was the first one to use bottom dementia, because I said, “Look, sometimes if you are a primary top and you find someone who makes you want to bottom, that bottom dementia make you go crazy.”

He ain't going crazy over no bottom like this. This is a top who put it down good one time, and this boy is willing to risk it all. Friends, career, school. He just want the dick! Bottom Dementia is a real problem and affects 6 in every 10 gay men.

[NiNi laughs]

What do you think poor Nick was going through? He had Nick turnt. Nick was bugging cars because the dick turned him so good. Do you know what kind of bottom dementia you gotta be going through to bug someone’s car and just be casual about it?

Ben

Not only did he casually bug the car.

David

Girl, he listened. He watched.

Ben

And then recorded the encounter. He then edited the clip so that he could listen to it just to hurt himself.

David

Bottom dementia! It is trademarked. I want my coins, and I am open for TED talks on bottom dementia. I've had one case of bottom dementia in my life. I know what it looks like. I went halfway across the country because of bottom dementia. I knew it when I saw Boston. I was like, “Oh, that's bottom dementia right there, girl. That's all that is.” I was like, I understand him though, like my sis is going through it right now. Y'all gotta let bottom dementia play out. It's like a sleepwalker. You can't just jostle them out of it. [NiNi laughs] Like, if you see someone going through bottom dementia, what you do is you make sure they're not thirsty and they've eaten—or maybe not eaten, depending on what stage of the bottom dimension they’re in.

Ben

Gurl.

[NiNi laughs harder]

David

You know, you just be there for them, because they're gonna come up out that fugue, and they're gonna be like, “Bitch!” And then you go, “Bitch…”

Ben

I almost understood it when they were in that car and Top's like, “Fine, I'm gonna do it,” and then tried to send that man into orbit.

[NiNi laughs]

Aight, bro. Shit!

David

Let me tell you! That was not good for poor Boston, ‘cause that made the bottom dementia a lil crazier. So when he rejected homeboy—and that's how you cure bottom dementia. You just get rejected, or you get common sense.

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

Like in my own case, it came when I was on the plane. I was like, “Am I really flying halfway across the country for dick? [NiNi laughs] Is your girl really sitting in coach class for dick? Did I not get my snack for dick? [Ben laughs] What is happening? Wait, wait, wait. Am I on Spirit Airlines for dick?”

NiNi

[laughs] I’m choking…

David

Girl! I—look! Man, I got off the plane, I called my girlfriend, I was like, “Let me tell you something, bitch.”

She was like, “Mm-hmm.”

I was like, “Girl, I'm on Spirit.”

She's like, “Mhmm. Right!”

“In coach.”

“Mm-hmm. Yup.”

“Halfway across the country.”

“Mhmm, right again.”

“For dick?”

She was like, “Sir. Ma'am, my sister in Christ.”

Now I went and got that dick because, at that point, I mean I'm already there, you know, but, like… bottom dementia is a real thing, okay? Let me tell you, like, whether it's you realizing that you are in the throes of it in coach on Spirit Airlines [Ben and NiNi laugh] on a one o’clock flight—Bitch, it was one in the morning. What is my life choices?

Ben

You caught a red eye??

[NiNi continues laughing]

David

Girl! Ben, for dick, girl, bottom dementia.

Ben

Speaking of bottom dementia, let's talk about Atom

David

Gurl…

NiNi

Woo. Jesus, fix it. Fix it, Jesus.

David

Jesus, take the wheel, take the axle, take the car, like. Lord.

Ben

I don't mind the plot line. Atom being like, “Give me that dick. I want it.” Fine. Whatever. We've seen like three different cases of bottom dementia in this show now. You got Boston's for Top, Nick’s for Boston, and now Atom’s for Boston. And then there's also Sand for Ray—oh my God.

David

Girl! [Ben sighs]

NiNi

That ain’t bottom dementia. That’s something else entirely.

Ben

That's true. And so, it was expected. Cheum storming over there and whooping Boston's ass ‘cause she thought he laid hands on her brother, but not calling the cops on him? That was her being nice. I don't blame her for being as live as she was, but I do blame Mew. Because Mew was supposed to be smart—and definitely knew better—and just wanted to see Boston punished.

And for as smart as he is, as much as he reads, choosing to let Boston go down that way is fucked up in ways that I just can't properly articulate, because there's no way you think it's okay for Boston—after you've helped him get out from under some sexual blackmail—would think that he would do that to somebody else. Let alone, Cheum’s brother. And letting that go down the way he did was, for me, the kind of unforgivable shit that a character can do.

It tracks with the character because Mew is a mean bitch, but was too fucking far from Mew.

Ray! Ray is drunk. I don't care about Ray.

David

Girl, Ray didn't know where he was. They said get in the car, we rolling. And Ray was like, okay. He put his flask in his pocket with his booger sugar and he got in the car. Ray barely knew what day it was.

Ben

But Mew definitely knew that Boston didn't do that to Atom, and he still let that go down. That was gross for me, and I hated the little perfunctory apology she gives Boston about that whole situation and then two scenes later it's like, “Okay, time for you to apologize to everybody for all the shit you did.” I'm like, “[scoffs] is? Is that how this is going down?

NiNi

No, you see. You ain't got smoke for Cheum over how that shit went down with Boston over at him, but I got smoke for that bitch, and here's why. It is one thing to be live about somebody you think did something to your little brother. Be live about that. 100%. But the way she was live? The shit that she said?

“Oh, my brother was straight before. What did you do to him?” Come the fuck on?

David

Her whole verbiage of that… as one of the gay men near her, I would have been like, “Bitch, what is that supposed to mean? Ain't nobody gonna check this bitch about what she just said?”

NiNi

That scene was when I was over Mew. I was over Cheum. Them two were completely out of control.

David

Because of another little BL group I'm in, I started doing all this research on… trigger warning guys, sexual assault and date rap drugs and all that… and it's like a major issue there. And I thought the way that this show touched on that did everyone involved a disservice.

Cheum, when her brother said he lied, she should have beat his ass in the middle of the kitchen. Why would you lie about something like that? Do you know the consequences of that kind of lie? You, identifying as a straight man, told me that one of my gay friends raped you.

Ben

I really hate that she reassured her brother.

David

When he lied, I decided, “Oh no, Atom is done.” We don't lie about that. I don't care what the fuck his reasons are. That shit was foul.

Ben

I do not like Cheum. I do not like Atom. I do not like Mew. I don't like any of these bitches! I was watching this like I was an older patron at Yo's bar. “What’s going on with the twinks these days?”

“Oooh, girl, let me tell you…”

“Oh, Lord. And then he did what?”

“Girl, he punched his own friend in the bar so he couldn't out that man, just so he could go fuck him up at home.”

“Damn, that bitch is crazy.”

That's how I was watching this whole show.

47:38 Do Not Take Only Friends Seriously

Ben

The thing here is, the show was just meant as entertainment. Do not take this show seriously. A lot of us like to write meta. We like to really engage with the stories and stuff. But, as David and I are fond of saying to all of the gays around us when they ask us for help and then don't do what we tell them they need to do to get out of their situation: “I can't want more for you than you want for yourself.”

This show does not want a lot for itself. I'm not going to pretend like this show was deeper than it was. This was a fun romp where a bunch of the BL boys got to cut loose for a little bit and have a good time, and that's totally fine. If you watch it as just the BL boys and some of their friends got to do a cracked-out, messy gay show, and we got to have some fun moments, it's fine.

Are we going to want to engage with this more seriously as a lens into queer life? I don't know. Like, there are some things to talk about, and I think there's some great shit to talk about with Nick and Boston. But overall? Mmmm…It’s fine. It's fun while you're watching it. There is no need to return to it.

NiNi

I just wish, and this is the thing that I try not to do with shows, but I think in this case it's justified. I just wish it was something else. For whatever reason, it's very clear that something in this show got changed during its run, and I just wish that they had been able to make the show that they clearly envisioned at the start.

Ben

I think we thought the show was going to be broader than it was, in terms of interacting with the queer experience. And it's fine if that's not what the creators intended. I feel like that's something we wanted from it. I don't think it's something that was necessarily promised to us. The only thing that was promised to us that we didn't get was Sand and his motherfucking bat.

NiNi

Now, you know how I feel about pilot trailers, Ben. I do not trust them.

Ben

It's less about that he didn't actually wield the bat. It's that the character pitched out there seemingly had a stronger sense of self than Sand ended up having in the final, and that irks me. Where is the version of Sand that was mad as hell and took a bat clearly about to go break something? Bring him back!

David

The whole narrative shift is so weird and awful, and Sand and Boston are probably the two biggest victims of it.

Ben

When did the show shift for me? The moment Sand called Ray his 25th hour. I was like, “Oh, what the fuck just happened??”

NiNi

Eww….

Ben

We don't have to wring meaning out of this experience. Like, we had a good time. We got some laughs. Mond kissed all of the boys. Whatever.

51:00 Final Thoughts (Two Months Later)

Ben

Hello again, folks. We apologize for the abrupt end to the last section. When we were recording this with David, we ran into an unfortunate hour and a half long string of technical difficulties, and some of the recording was lost, and we do not have the capacity in us to try and rebuild the end of that segment.

So, couple of months away from Only Friends, NiNi and I are back together, and we brought another guest with us, and we're going to wrap this up. So, everyone welcome Ginny back to this side of the podcast, Ginny, say “hello.”

Ginny

Hey!

Ben

What I kind of want to talk about now, a couple of months away from the show, what from Only Friends, if anything, sticks with you at this point?

Ginny

Disappointment. [laughs] Really, Boston and Nick as characters and, what I hoped, and was ultimately frustrated by in their stories. But I did, really, love so much of what was done with their characters, and when I think about the show, it's mostly the two of them—both separately and together—that I think about.

Ben

What about you, NiNi? You had an ongoing rankings board for 12 weeks on this show. What sticks with you from it at this point?

NiNi

Definitely Boston. That's been haunting me for a while, but it also, oddly enough, Top. Because I feel like my conception of Top was more interesting than what the show gave us, and so I've been stuck with a lot of Top headcanons, which is a weird place for me to be in. They missed a trick, I think, when it came to Top, and the whole TopMew dynamic.

Ben

For me, nothing about the show itself sticks. Only thing that I think of when I think about Only Friends was Neo did a really good job, and I really liked Mark. And that's not great.

I think whether it was spoken or not, a lot of us hoped that this show would join the gay canon, and it doesn't. The way this show lets down its audience on the sexual politics towards the end is truly unforgivable and it has made me think less of Jojo. I don't know how much of this is him, or how much of this is the powers that be at GMMTV, but it was kind of weird, with as online as Jojo is, just sort of laughing about how Boston's a fugly slut. And that's where, sort of being where the show ends, being really surprising for me from him, ‘cause I thought he had a stronger grasp on his characters.

I really hate that one of the shows we were most anticipating ends up being barely worth mentioning? It sucks, because, I think, a lot of the talent in this really put themselves out there and pushed themselves beyond their comfort zones. It really sucks how flat Only Friends feels by the end, because the early parts of watching this were just so fun. The need to make bolder and more risque or more interesting storytelling seems to be at odds with whoever has the final say on what goes into these stories, and Only Friends seems to be a very obvious victim of that.

NiNi

It's a show that should have been fun. In the end, it was not fun. I would give this show seven and a half, and the half point is for the stylistic elements. I'm sad to be rating Only Friends a seven and a half because up to episode 6 this was probably like a 9.5 show for me.

Ben

Ginny, what about you?

Ginny

I still have to think about my final rating. Because yeah, the first half and a bit—fully 9.5. And then by the end I want to put it down in the 7 zone. I think at the moment it's sitting at 8.5 on my MyDramaList, but as time has passed and I haven't gotten over the things that made me sad about it, I think it's going down to at least an 8, and it may sink further as time passes and my bitterness pickles.

Ben

Pickles is a good term for it. It's a 7. It is not an easy show to recommend. It is a show, that if you're going to tell someone to watch it, you have to give caveats for. You have to explain that something is going on politically with this show in terms of what it was allowed to do, and how that seriously impacts the end. Anytime you have to recommend a show with a pamphlet explaining things, or learning people about things, it lowers for me immediately.

If this was any other creator, they should have gotten a 5, because I was Gay Mad about this show.

Ginny

Yep.

Ben

I was not expecting to be Gay Mad at Jojo. The fact that this is Jojo and NiNew, and I liked the cast, and it feels like meddling and not necessarily the creators per se, is the only reason this gets a 7.

NiNi

7, 7.5, 8, so that's an average of a. 7.5.

Ben

You know what it is? It's a chop!

NiNi

It's a chop, and I am so sad to be saying that about this show, about a Jojo show. So sad, but that's where we are.

Ben

And on that note, we will see you all in the next episode—which one is it, NiNi?

NiNi

I don't know. Whatever ends up happening ends up happening.

Ben

Oh, God, the next episode is Swoon.

[NiNi laughs]

We will see you next week for I Feel You Linger in the Air.

NiNi

It might be the same week! You don't know when things are going up. My calendar is a little wonky, right now.

Ben

We will see you in a few days [laughs] for I Feel You Linger in the Air. The Swoon episode.

NiNi

We out. Say “bye” to the people, Ginny.

Ginny

Bye-bye.

NiNi

Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben

Peace!

#lgbtq #podcast #only friends the series #the conversation #ben and nini's conversations #on art #thai bl #bl series #season 5 #winter series #Spotify

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