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curiosity-killed · 3 years

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hua cheng, the accidental person

okay this is for @bodhimcbodeface because i can’t shut up and make this concise enough for discord. spoilers ahead yeehaw

this is...not comprehensive. i’ve written 11 tgcf fics and am generally a bit fixated on Hua Cheng as a character so. there’s definitely things missing but i tried to hit the main points that i thought of while writing? also obviously this is just my interpretation! i do not expect anyone else to be like “ah yes curio the sage is so correct i have changed my thinking on this” like go live your life with your own versions of hua cheng! this is just the hill upon which i have firmly planted myself and from which i refuse to be budged. as u do.

anyway, LONG explanation of my very niche and very uh self-indulgent, not-necessarily-support-by-canon hua cheng apologism LMAO

tl;dr: (this is really Too Long i’m sorry) I think Hua Cheng reluctantly becomes a person during his 800 years of searching, starting from a point where he views Xie Lian not as a person but as an immutable god and focus of devotion and developing into a person who doesn’t really acknowledge that he’s a person because realizing that you want to live and do things for yourself is scary and overwhelming at times, and he ultimately falls in love with Xie Lian during the novel itself as he recognizes and is in wonder of the humanity of Xie Lian instead of his divinity or absolute judgment.

POINT 1: Hua Cheng doesn’t actually fall in love with Xie Lian till the ox cart

but curio! you say, “my beloved!” he calls him his beloved! and the land of tender!!

shhh. IMO Hua Cheng is more Wuming than Hua Cheng for those 800 years. By which I mean, for most of that time he’s, at his heart, a nameless soldier trying to find and serve his crown prince/general/god. He still views Xie Lian as this perfect and immaculate figure—a sculpture, a painting, a work of art that is untouchable and immutable. And he’s utterly and wholly devoted to that figure but devotion is not the same as love

So Hua Cheng is searching and trying to serve Dianxia all these years and then His Royal Highness finally ascends and is a god again and Hua Cheng shows up in all his glory to give this power and strength and wealth to serve him and—

and he’s met not by a powerful and reckless martial god or an unstoppable calamity but by a young man dressed in bridal robes who lets Hua Cheng lead him up a darkened mountain, who doesn’t lash out with spiritual energy or a sword but instead, only eventually, with the cursed bandage he was carrying back in the darkest part of his life.

and i think that throws hua cheng. like he’s had this image of his god all these years, this divine painting made over and over and over again—and he carries that belief and devotion with him, but there’s a crack in the sculpture and the stone is starting to flake off to reveal a human underneath it

so he puts on an approachable, malleable, unassuming skin and finds xie lian collecting scraps and being a lil awkward, a lil bumbling, generous and kind — and i think hua cheng, after 800 years of knowing everything, having everything — I think he looks at this discovery with wonder

Bc tbc this does not mean Hua Cheng views them as equals. For him it’s like, dianxia has even more to him, is even more than I knew. He’s seen Xie Lian as the flower crowned martial god in all his glory and as the white-clothed calamity in all his horror — and now here he is, wonderful, multitudinous, and human

Meanwhile I don’t think Hua Cheng even views himself as a person really, much less a human.

also i mean. the internet & allo ppl prove time and time again that you don’t need love for horniness so. land of tender’s right out as proof on that

POINT 2: The Live For Me thing

so obviously and undeniably, using one person as a reason for living is....not healthy. Not going to argue that. but my take on it personally is that, when Hua Cheng’s a kid who really, actively wants to die and sees no reason for living, Xie Lian gives him a reason to keep going. he doesn’t have to live for himself—that’s too much, that’s too big of an ask—but he’s been given a command and purpose by the one person who’s been kind to him/whom he respects. it’s a little like... “My life has no meaning but my cat needs me to feed him and clean his litterbox and so I need to keep getting up and taking care of him even if I don’t see a larger intrinsic purpose to my life.”

and i think like...it’s easy to forget that for all of books 2 & 4, Hua Cheng is young. He doesn’t live past 18—he’s still like...a kid. And that’s not to say that teenagers/young adults can’t make moral and rational decisions but I’m going to be honest, when I was that age I contemplated joining the Air Force because of tuition assistance and the snazzy uniform despite the fact that I was a vocal pacifist and repeatedly got into arguments with teachers about school rules and conservative politics. It’s not like. The Most Rational and Mature Age, lbr.

so Wuming is absolutely capable of looking at what Xie Lian is doing and being like “hey maybe war crimes aren’t a great idea” but he is young and traumatized and the one person he believes in, the one person who gave him a reason to keep going, is deadset on this task which tbh I don’t think either of them (or...necessarily...the society in which they live) views as war crimes in the modern sense (which isn’t to say that we as readers should view it any more lightly bc i think the narrative directly and firmly contradicts that idea) but as revenge, as an eye-for-an-eye. so, bad, but character-wise, I think it’s more nuanced than we sometimes consider

anyway back to the fixation on xie lian. i stand by the assertion that in those 800 years, hua cheng wasn’t exclusively focused on xie lian. like was finding and serving him his top priority? oh god yes. undeniably. there is no other version of this story. BUT eight hundred years is like....a lot of time. and i think in that time he started doing things for himself, even if under the guise of serving xie lian. hua cheng is curious and adventurous—he clearly likes to learn even if he plays it off as nbd—and i think he starts to realize that about himself in those centuries even if he doesn’t allow himself to acknowledge or consider it.

POINT 3: Mt. Tong’lu in General

“okay, sure but what about the thousands of sculptures and murals of xie lian, curio. what the fuck about them.”

Yeah. FINE. okay we will DEAL with this. dealing with this is the entire reason i wrote “(like i do) in the tall grass.”

disclaimer: this is probably not supported by canon! i also. Do Not care. My Ghost King Now.

so I have two general avenues I take with this:

going back to the devotion > love — when Hua Cheng reaches MTL, he’s seen xie lian beaten and cast down. what do gods need to survive? worship! we see throughout how important divine statues/portraits/etc. are throughout canon. in this interpretation, the cave is a concentration of all that worship in an effort to support and serve xie lian and hua cheng doesn’t view himself like...as part of it. the sculptures could have been carved by any hand so long as they are xie lian and the worship and devotion that goes into their making can support and bolster him.

my personal favorite version: amNESIA IN THE CAVES —okay i don’t have the text pulled up rn but y’know how Guoshi says Hua Cheng was almost dispersed, in terrible condition, etc., when he reached Mt. Tong’lu. so if baby boy is in terrible condition, barely hanging on, etc., then my immediate favorite option is that he doesn’t, at that time, have even the...uh threadbare sense of self he did in life/as Wuming and is running on only a vague and urgent sense of Something driving him—something he has to do, someone he has to serve—and in that case, the paintings and sculptures are part of his trying to piece together and process his memories as he can grasp them and figuring out who he is/what his purpose is. Is this canonical? PROBABLY NOT. and yet here i am. firmly planted on this hill

Also w/ MTL I think a thing that’s often skated over is the mortals, creation of E’ming, and his ascension. Which is important from a meta lens of Hua Cheng and Xie Lian vs Jun Wu but that’s not the point of this rambling monstrosity and i’m trying not to get too distracted. ANYWAY I think this is one of those times when Hua Cheng does something that he would probably excuse as like “well His Highness would’ve wanted me to” or “His Highness wouldn’t have been willing to sacrifice the mortals” because Xie Lian is still largely his moral compass—but it also is a peek at the complexity Hua Cheng doesn’t acknowledge within himself.

uh i got distracted anyway and no longer know what point i was making here. Hua Cheng Ascension Important....maybe i will remember this at some other point...

POINT 4: Live For Me (Revisited)

I sort of got distracted writing that point but anyway coming back to it now: I maintain that although Hua Cheng’s primary pursuit is protecting and serving Xie Lian he also does develop/realize his Accidental Personhood throughout his 800 years. this includes a lot of things, as previously stated, that are under the guise of serving Xie Lian (I’d put learning the Banyue tongue, finding out about the Gilded Banquet, collecting swords, beating the 33 officials etc., in this category) and things that maybe could be but...are not really (e.g., his friendship alliance with He Xuan, Paradise Manor* in general, the Gambling Den, learning the Wuyong tongue, bullying Qi Rong*, bullying FengQing*, playing with gold foil palaces, etc.)

(*these are ones that like...could be said to be for Xie Lian and I think he might say are for Xie Lian but also have a personal element that is just for him.

Like yes Paradise Manor is a lavish and well-stocked residence fit for a god or crown prince...but it’s also a luxurious and extravagant collection of all the things he couldn’t have in life. it’s like giving a kid a credit card with no limit and letting them run wild through uh. Fuck. A Fancy Department Store.

And sure Qi Rong was awful and turned on Xie Lian in pretty damning ways, but I also genuinely think part of Hua Cheng’s grudge with him is from the childhood abuse and from just...hatred that Qi Rong is around and looks like Xie Lian and gets to be there when Hua Cheng can’t find Xie Lian (which is about Xie Lian but for Hua Cheng).

Similarly with FengQing, sure a lot of his hate is for them abandoning Xie Lian—but he doesn’t even know till Book 3 when they abandoned him, and consider how much more he hates Mu Qing, the guy he blames for kicking him out of the army, etc. Some of it is totally “in service” to Xie Lian but some of it is because Hua Cheng carries a grudge like a goddamn pro and finds catharsis in beating the shit out of immortals who bounce back and can’t stop tripping over themselves and onto his blade.)

#hua cheng #tgcf #tgcf meta #long post #i'm sorry i cannot be concise or clear with my thoughts :<#this is why i write fic #bc i can just mash these interpretations through prose and then they turn out more clearly #....i think #i hope anyway bc this sure as fuck isn't that clear

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darcyolsson · 4 years

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please, do tell us why matthew will/won't die

thank u, anon, for endorsing me

enjoy an extremely long meta analysis on what i think will happen to matthew fairchild in chain of iron (+ chain of thorns)

ETA: the new tungle jungle update killed list formatting so all my bullet points are now below each other instead of having sub points but its Fine, i’m FINE, u just have to read over it i guess, let’s get to it

let’s start out with some reasons why matthew is extremely unlikely to die (spoiler warning for chog and tid!!!)

plot protection! matthew is more plot protected than.. literally anyone imo. the storyline of his secret and his romance with cordelia are two reasons he’s very unlikely to die because there’s too much to be resolved. killing him off would mean leaving those plotlines entirely unresolved.

similarly, matthews deep mental health issues funnily enough protect him from dying. cc never kills off characters who are struggling with themselves. (jessamine is the exception to this, more on that later)

same goes for the fact that matthew is bi- lgbt characters generally don’t die* in cc’s writing. she avoids the kill your gays trope like hell which, tbh, good for us???

not as stong of an argument, but it would make tlh too similar to tid- killing off the herondale’s parabatai who’s also interested in the main girl? yeah. i know cassie recently spoke about how she doesn’t really care for comparisons between tlh and tid, but i feel like this would be pushing it.

but then again, there’s a Lot of reasons why matthew might be dead as hell by the end of coi i’m sorry

most of all, book two madness! shit always goes down in the second book. cassie has also hinted at Shit Going Down in coi, and considering a lightwood already died in chog, i wouldnt be surprised if a main dies

“But Victoria Why On Earth Would That Be Matthew” well! because literally everybody else Cannot die:

it won’t be anna, alastair or thomas bc of said avoidance of kill your gays (And they still need to kiss kiss fall in love); grace, lucie, james and cordelia are simply too important to the plot for cc to kill them; and jesse’s... already dead idk what to tell u

i’m aware this leaves out christopher too, but tbh? i wouldn’t be too surprised if he dies. the only thing saving him rn are that he still has to marry grace if we’re following the family tree and that he has to invent fire messages but....... those are attainable goals for a single book imo (unlike matthew sorting out his Stuff) so... Perhaps it’s gonna be kit but thats a whole nother post

yeah i know i also just listed a bunch of reasons why matthew wont die but bear w me

so why matthew? because, plot-wise, there’s advantages to him dying, that other characters’ deaths wouldn’t have:

it would solve the love triangle. as a fairstairs it pains me to say this but it’s fairly straightforward: matthew dies, the gracelet is destroyed, jordelia lives happily ever after. we know jordelia will probably be endgame, so.. yeah.

on that same note: matthew doesn’t have a love interest besides cordelia. we know we won’t be seeing the tlh characters in another series, so everybody that lives has to get their happily ever after, which in cc’s case means being happily married. if i recall correctly, the only main characters that have ever ended up single at the end of their books were tda characters that we know we will see again in twp.

he isn’t on the family tree. we know for a fact that we can’t trust the family tree, but i think it’s unlikely for cc to just... ignore something as big as that.

but vic, wouldn’t a dead person be on the family tree? good question! that leaves us with our third option: matthew dies, but doesn’t die, aka downworlder/disowned matthew

basically, the whole idea is that matthew either becomes a downworlder and loses contact w the gang, or he gets stripped of his runes/disowned for what he did to charlotte

it would be a way for him to distance himself from the shadowhunters without actually dying- so it would create none of the ethical issues that come w dying (such as kill your gays) but it would distance him from the shadowhunters enough to let jordelia do their funky business.

matthew being stripped of his runes would explain why he isn’t on the family tree too, bc we know shadowhunters that were stripped of their runes aren’t allowed to have contact w their family.

i’ve talked about vampire matthew before but basically: there’s some hints at matthew staying young forever in chog, and him dying but becoming immortal instead would basically be pulling a jessamine. he dies, but doesn’t die.

becoming a vampire would also give us the Drama™ of his death scene, mayhaps some dramatic confessions, plus it would give him literal eternity to sort out his alcoholism/underlying issues (though i think that will be sorted out by the end of cot)

this also fixes the lack of love interest: if he’s immortal, that means we will probably see him again (maybe in twp/tec?) (with a hot vampire bf/gf, of course)

the only argument against this is again, that it would be too similar to tid, which we know cassie might be avoiding.

also perhaps that ppl might see it as as a way to execute the kill your gays trope without actually doing it, but then again, she sent haline to wranger island Just Like That so,,.,. she doesn’t seem to have any problems w that :^)

basically, i have no idea what’s gonna happen to matthew. i think downworlder matthew makes a Lot of sense, but at the same time it’s a bit of reach imo. if anything, i think it might make too much sense. (i had theories for tda that made a lot more sense than giant naked angels but We Got That Too, didn’t we!)

knowing cc’s writing, i think Matthew Suffers, But Somehow Lives is probably the route she will take. i just have no idea how it will be executed.

thank you for coming to my ted talk!

tl;dr: matthew’s death would be very convenient for some parts of the plot, but it would create a lot of issues with other parts of it. because of this, i think cc might take some sort of dying-but-not-really middle route.

* generally, because there’s a few exceptions: michael is bi but started out dead, which doesn’t count as killing people off imo. the faerie characters that died could be considered lgbt because technically all faeries are bi/pan, but none of the faeries that died ever had a same-sex romance. the aro/ace character that died in tmi is the only one i can think of, but he wasn’t explicitly aro-ace on page until the novellas that followed after tmi. matthew is very explicitly bisexual and has always been very explicitly bisexual.

#this got long dfkgdhj sorry i got carried away #the last hours #matthew fairchild #chain of iron theories #cassandra clare #the shadowhunter chronicles #tlh theories #tsc meta #op #tlh #tsc #lit #long post \#anonymous #answered asks

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iraprince · 4 years

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Do you have any tips for getting an audience of tumblr or Twitter. Sometimes I just get frustrated when a drawing I spent 6 hours on gets 3 notes or 2 likes and a retweet.

i think it’s really hard to have one size fits all advice for something like this — the internet is so vast, i only really know how to navigate my own specific niche of it, and different artists will always appeal to different audiences, so stuff that worked for me might not work for you. BUT i can try my best — i just can’t guarantee any of this is replicable bc especially with the new age of incomprehensible algorithms i just never know what’s going on at any given time

first off, a big disclaimer for transparency: a lot of my Big follower gains have been from my Hashtag Relatable mental health comics getting tons of notes. i do NOT!!!!! recommend making mental health content to try to get popular!!! i think doing so will put fucking worms in your brain!!! it will poison you and your brain will dribble out your ear holes like soup. i think that it is already complicated enough to navigate all the weirdness of like... making vulnerable stuff like that available for consumption, and doing it in Hopes of going viral and getting lots of followers can imo literally only end poorly. hhhhhowever, i would feel really weird if i like... glossed over the fact that i know that’s where a lot of my followers have come from, or acted like that didn’t happen, so. i just have to like, mention it. my takeaway here is if you’re going to make mental health content FOR YOURSELF because you WANT to, brace yourself for it to potentially circulate, and be ready to feel really weird about it, but i do not recommend it as like... a way to purposefully grow an audience.

ANYWAY. with that nagging out of the way. actual advice

1. fanart, but only of stuff you really actually like. it is literally just a fact that it’s easier for people to feel invested in and care about characters from stuff they’re already invested in than original independent content. it’s not wrong to court that! but i think u should only pour energy into fanart of stuff u actually like — not bc chasing after whatever the current BNHA-type thing is rn is “selling out,” who gives a shit, but bc the end goal is to have an audience who WANTS to see what YOU want to make. you want people who care about your specific set of aesthetics and interests, not ppl who will unfollow en masse the second you fall off trend. (if you DO tend to really like what’s super popular, there’s nothing wrong with that! that’s lucky for you, genuinely.)

2. self promo all the time. this one can be hard bc it feels embarrassing at first. you feel like you’re spamming people or being annoying or self centered. but listen: people follow literally hundreds of accounts. you remember every time you’ve boosted your drawing; most of the ppl who follow you probably didn’t even see it. and if they see it twice or three times among the literally hundreds and thousands of posts anyone sees per day that is not a big deal. stuff gets lost! timelines and dashboards move fast! i cannot count the number of times i’ve seen something cool and thought “oh i’ll check that out” and then five minutes later i’ve forgotten bc of information overload. you have to constantly remind people that you exist and that you make things and i promise you you’re not being as annoying as you think you are. (i know you guys don’t see this in practice from me much on tumblr; that is bc i don’t really like it here and i don’t understand the vibes. i never shut the fuck up on twitter)

3. follow and engage with your peers, not just people with 10k+ followers who have already “made it” or whatever. this is not advice about growing an audience so much as advice for not feeling super shitty while you’re trying to grow your audience. i’m not saying that people with tons of followers/bustling online shops/enamel pin empires are like a completely different category of person of whatever, that’s not my point; clout is not direct deposit and just bc someone is popular doesn’t mean they’re coasting by without worries; etc etc. but my point is that i used to only follow very popular, established artists who were, in my mind, “out of my league,” and i spent all my time beating myself up for not being them or being consumed with jealousy and resentment. but... spending more time with artists who are kind of at the same ssstage of figuring things out as i was, as much as any individual journeys can ever be “the same,” was much more encouraging and inspiring and energizing, and helped me reset my concept of what “success” means for independent creatives into something more healthy. don’t wear yourself out chasing after people who seem to be moving way faster than you, especially if it’s making you feel like shit! find some people who are walking at a pace you can relate to, take interest in their stuff, talk and form connections. you’ll feel better.

4. just draw the stuff you want to even if you don’t think it has audience appeal. literally just draw exactly what makes you happy. this sounds like i’m trying to pull some corny Just Be Yourself! Believe In Your Art! shit and i mean yeah i guess but i also mean that literally from experience there was a significant surge in interest + appreciation of my work when i went apeshit and just decided to do the most self indulgent shit possible no matter how cliche or tacky or cringe or whatever it was. people respond to sincerity and passion, i really believe that. people can tell when you’re having fun and they like it. who doesn’t wanna be around someone who’s always having fun

that’s about all the stuff that i think could be considered like.... more or less universal. i dunno!!! just keep at it. the internet is a nightmare i don’t really know how it works

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fitzykreiner · 7 years

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To me, what really pisses me off is how Shamier was treated this season. Like you said he may have had other projects but you can work around it and not just have him appearing just to be in episodes but you can actually give him a storyline. And the thing is, they need him so fucking much, he saves the day almost every single time. Then he just disappears because he doesn't get any recognition for all that he does for everyone. There were so many opportunities missed. It's Problematic as fuck

yep!!!!!!!! that’s what i’m saying -- fine, the actor has other projects going on, that doesn’t mean you have to then half-assedly write the character. :/

im putting a cut bc im just gonna answer all these asks that y’all sent me like a week ago,

What I really hate about this whole situation is how hardly anyone is calling them out on their shit. Like shit how do people expect us to feel watching this show as POC's when the POC's on this show are treated like shit. Idc if they add another cast member and they're POC, it won't take away from the fact that one of them is a lead and constantly sidelined, one is now a villain and was treated like shit and one is only there for comedic timing and to give googley eyes at doc.

“one of them is a lead + constantly sidelined, one is now a villian + was treated like shit, & one is only there for comedic timing + to give googly eyes at doc” you........just hit it right on the fucking head there. im so pissed. dolls was treated like an actual nuanced main character, then he wasn’t. rosita was given an AMAZING story by having her be a revenant yet be kind and just tryna live her life, then they decided to somehow pull off the double trope of “poc sacrifices themself for white friends” + “poc is the villain”, like what kind of racist two birds w one stone kinda bullshit.......and then ya, jeremy. he’s never really been anything but comedic relief apart from the few hints that he’s got an interesting past + him saying that he never left purgatory bc he doesn’t fit in there but no one asked him to fit in anyway .

What hurts even more is how all three POC characters have been used to prop up the white male character. Dolls has just been sidelined the whole season and am I supposed to believe that wynonna didn't give two shits about him in the finale when this is the same woman who fought so hard to save him in 2x01. Rosita was treated like shit from doc. And then Jeremy treats him like he can fucking walk on water. I didn't mind him but this and his fans have made me hate doc with a passion now.

it really feels like there’s a divide in the writers’ room between who likes wyndolls(+dolls) and who likes wyndoc(+doc) bc its just.......one or the other whenever either make an appearance. like i feel like when an episode is written by a person who prefers wyndoc, dolls barely makes an appearance or is mentioned maybe once, and vice versa lmao. i really wish they would make up their minds instead of having one wyndolls episode, then a wyndoc episode, then a wyndolls episode, ad infinitum. plus ya this season had way too much doc praise from everyone imo.................whoops

I know you don't hate doc but what makes me even more mad about him, is that he constantly makes mistakes and treated people like shit. Like how tf does he get away with this constantly??? Yet whenever Dolls makes a mistake it's the end of the world and he needs a talking to. I really don't know if I can carry on watching this I want them to pick a ship and just stick with it (hopefully wyndolls) because the whole triangle is convoluted as fuck and it's making me dislike the show.

i think doc has truly grown from who he was back before the well happened, but he still is an asshole and can be a shitty person (esp re: rosita lmao). i think he’s a flawed man and that’s... acceptable, but what i don’t find acceptable is that, like u said, he’s never called out on it. in order to deserve all the praise he got from every character this season, he really should have apologized to ppl abt things he’s said and done.

lmao.......u know why dolls’s mistakes are treated more seriously and actually brought to his attention vs. doc’s mistakes.......You Know Why

I just wanna say thanks, it feels good to be able to rant like this, so many people treat this show likes it's perfect when it's extremely problematic at times. I'm fucking praying, like down on my knees praying that they don't carry on this romantic wynd*c bullshit in S3 and this love triangle because wyndolls is far superior and shit I think everyone knows it. I think a lot of the fandom is a lot more receptive to their relationship because it's so beautiful compared to that mess.

no probs im always here for u to rant to!!!!!

Coming from a hardcore wyndolls shipper this shit has really hit me hard. Trust me I know they're a fictional character and it's just a show but I've been through so many times of my fav characters (who happen to be POC) either getting sidelined or killed off and I'm not sure if I can deal with it anymore. And the person who I'm really upset for is shamier. Because shit man he deserves so much better. This has actually made me lose so much trust in the writers and I have no hope left for S3.

listen u don’t have to come here and justify why this has affected u so much to me, i understand completely. a lot of people (including me) cling really tightly to some fictional worlds & characters and when the creators fuck up it hurts. also ya shamier no doubt deserves better, tho im happy he’s out doing other things too, not just being wasted by wearp

I was just reading all your asks on the finale and I remembered wynonna telling doc that she never would've kissed dolls if she knew doc was back and I'm just like... what! That whole sentence just contradicts one of the main themes and relationships of S1. Listen I loved the moments that we got of wyndolls in S2 but this forced wynd*c relationship has me feeling so disappointed in the show. when S3 is back on I'm just gonna wait to see how dolls/wyndolls is treated before watching. I cba

rip i just had to look up what “cba” meant bc i thought maybe u ran out of characters and misspelled a word and i just never got the second message alkdfjalkdsalk

no really that so came out of left field bc like???? wynonna + dolls were being built up the entire first season, it was all leading to dolls admitting his feelings and them kissing. (remember when wyn dared dolls to admit that he cares for her?? and he couldn’t? so she called him a pussy and walked away???? then he finally did admit that he needs her in the finale? im crying) wynonna + doc was just them learning to trust each other and fucking in the forest that one time, there was nothing OVERTLY romantic abt their relationship compared to wyndolls.

I just don't get how they expect me to believe that forced ass relationship. She literally looks at dolls like he's her whole world, and when he came back she looked so relieved and happy again. I hate love triangles in shows and this season especially has made me intensely dislike doc, especially after 2x03 with that whole "I ain't doing it for him" comment. And his treatment of Rosita and his actions during 2x06. I cannot deal with this shit and I really don't trust them anymore, not at all

oh ho hohoho boyyyyyy i forgot abt the “i aint doin it for him” which, first thing, is such BULLSHIT, doc cares abt dolls, it’s been established. anyway, im this whole ask,,,,,.

#wearp #xavier dolls #wyndolls #doc holliday #im still bitter if it wasn't clear #also sorry these responses are more than a week late #anon #asks

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coshayphinelove · 7 years

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just some thinky thoughts after i wrote a tag essay that got way bigger than the tags. feel free to read if you want, but forewarning... i have more questions after writing than before so..

so before i start anything i’d like to clarify that i love ob. most of my issues with it are bc i got my hopes too high and held the creators to the standards i hold myself, which is not fair in art. also, i’m only talking about the ob team and the characters, not the fans. don’t get all in a twist, this is just me... thinkin.

so ep 5 was great. 2013 me would have loved it. but 2017 me is like.. hard into communication and explicitly labelled representation. and cophine is neither of those things. like... i can understand that there’s not enough time to linger on stuff the way i would want to. i get it. but like... there was enough time to linger on alison. for five seasons. the first time she ever did anything main plot-moving was this season, she was always almost completely seperate. she got flashbacks out the wazoo to explain her entire life story. we met her mom. her monitor is redeemed.

i just am very unhappy with the doling of screen time. like... it’s not even about shipping anymore. it’s about plot holes and i am genuinely confused about the story at this point. like delphine and donnie are easily comparable characters. donnie monitored alison for close to a decade. lied to her for a decade. once he found out about the clones started doing things without alison’s knowledge or consent. he is forgiven. almost immediately. for everything.

delphine lasted as a monitor about... a month? she was so bad at lying that cosima caught her. she immediately came clean. then in the flashback begged cosima to believe that she would always protect her. and yet? the conflict surrounding delphine for the entire show is ~is she good or bad???~. and at every turn she is keeping that promise while making and keeping other promises. and everybody, including her love interest keeps throwing her mistakes in her face.

donnie gets side plots and new dynamics to explore. delphine has to have all of her characterization as a subset of cosima’s screen time. donnie gets a seat at the bubbles table, delphine does not. she has to leave and get shot (a whole different rant of equal length).

on another note, alison and cosima are also easily comparable characters: side characters used to provide info for sarah to react to. cosima’s safety is always at risk, she’s been boiled down to her love interest for several plots, and she doesn’t ever get to acknowledge her Very Obvious PTSD and abandonment issues. alison has low stakes conflict (up until this season, but that’s already over), she is never boiled down to donnie’s wife, and we got to watch her parse through her issues in s2 in great detail.

like even the flashbacks. like alison got half her episode told in flashbacks and it was gorgeous. i by no means wanted that when there’s so much going on but i thought we would get at least a little more.

we met alison’s parent. we hear about her in a natural and very not forced way. cosima gets one very long line about her family very late in the game in a clunky and almost pointless way. (like... why was it in there? what purpose did it serve?)

i think the problem is subtext. everybody is always talking about the subtext. but the problem is there are several issues that the writer’s address almost explicitly. like alison’s drinking problem. we learned all about that and we cheered for her when she went to rehab and we we sad when she relapsed. with cosima it’s.... two instances of smash cuts of bad memories and her reacting to them. ......*gestures with flailing arms* ISN’T THAT ALSO IMPORTANT???

like. i’m going to keep talking about delphine but.. that’s just where my head is rn..

but from s1 to s2 her arc was learning what her role would be in clone club and then how to do that. and she made some big huge strides there. and then she comes back for s3 and it’s gone. she’s just.. not doing that anymore? like they took the time to film her telling cosima immediately after she messed up that she had, in fact, messed up. and then, what, a few days later she Can’t Tell Cosima Anything Anymore? and don’t get on me about screen time here. it could’ve been like.. 2 more lines. “it’s not safe, they’ll hurt you.” “b-but delphine??” “i’m sorry.” LIKE? they just wanted the drama of cosima not knowing. which i can see wanting, but it didn’t end up working. because then you had scenes showing delphine doing things for clone club. so then... it was just.... confusing? and imo drawn out for too long.

but even to this day I, a delphine stan, am still kind of iffy. she literally made an ultimatum (promise me, everyone. you will never make an ultimatum in your romantic/sexual/platonic relationships. that’s a manipulation tactic that a lot of abusers use. slippery slope please don’t do it.)(i’m also not saying that delphine is an abuser or that you’re an abuser but just.. it’s a thing to be careful of.)

“accept our toxic relationship as is or leave.”

IN WHAT WORLD IS THAT OKAY??? like i get the sentiment behind it. like she was saying, ‘hey cosima i know i’ve been bad but like you don’t have to stay if you don’t want. i’ll stop kissing you and everything.’ but then.... have her say that? everything delphine ever says to cosima is wrapped in 3 levels of subtext. or alternatively, cut the kissies in half and let them have a few lines about a new promise or something. idk if that’s just her being extra or if that’s just.... the writers.

bc the creators... bless them.. they’re trying. but when it comes down to it they were predominantly straight men. and they did add tatiana as an executive producer which is like.. the head idea guy who tell the writers what to write. which was awesome! but like.. she’s straight (as far as we know). so like.. i really don’t want to pull the sexuality card here. but i think i am.

bc it’s one thing if you don’t give romantic, mental health, or communication plot lines very much time. it’s another if you give a straight couple plenty and a wlw couple scraps. it’s one thing if the straight couple gets to delve into things multiple times and the wlw couple gets ten seconds before the plot needs to keep going.

i get that the cosima-centric ep was very plot heavy, stuff was happening, i get it. but like... if you cared about giving good rep as much as you claim you do wouldn’t you... re-structure so that they have more than 10 seconds? wouldn’t you sacrifice some of that oh so dearly beloved body horror to let them just... talk for a hot sec? or let them be in the same room?

i know it’s hard work. the longest original work i’ve ever finished is a 30 page script. and even then it’s a lot of ‘is this dialogue working?’ ‘would that character say that?’ ‘that’s a plot hole’ ‘wait where is he going again?’ i get that there’s a lot to keep track of so like... knowing who cosima’s parents are wasn’t on a post-it note on the beat board. but i just... one of the questions i always ask myself is ‘is this healthy?’ so like... i always make sure that if the dynamic isn’t then i either address it somewhere else or change it so it is.

i don’t think they were asking themselves that.

bc straight guys are used to power balances in their relationships. they’re used to ultimatums. whether it’s in their life or in fiction, that’s what they see. and they’re socialized to see that as normal. so when they’re made aware that the media they’re making is feminist/progressive, these guys seemed like they did research and tried to make it more so. but... they missed the mark. bc straight men will never know what it’s like to be a wlw or a woman. that’s just how it works.

and then.. like... they were so hyperaware of the fans and what they wanted. and i think the thing they understood the best was that they wanted cophine kisses. bc a lot of ppl wanted that and like...ppl who are cophine critical sometimes also want cophine kisses. so that’s the loudest thing they heard/saw. and instead of doing the emotional work and the plot work they thought every scene had to have kisses.

and they also knew that they could always fill in the gaps at panels. WHICH. not canon if you say it at a panel y’all. they knew the fans would spread their patches all over the place. so instead of doing the work and explicitly taking a stand they just.. let people ask them questions so they knew what people were wondering about and then...... answered.

i don’t think they did any of this maliciously but like.. the whole drama surrounding sarah’s sexuality, the great debate of whether it was problematic or not. like... knowing now that they didn’t intend it to come off as her lashing out and having a mental breakdown helps, but.... that’s still what it looked like at first glance. and if i’m just a DVR viewer who doesn’t meticulously stalk everything ob online, i wouldn’t know that. and they do that with delphine’s intentions a lot. they do it with sexuality a lot. they do it with gender a lot. and it’s like.... it’s representation but... label-less to the masses. like my dad was in the room when sarah was kissing a girl and he made some snide comment about it. and it’s like... they were just too aware of fans that they gave them what they wanted (sarah kissing a girl/cophine kisses) without thinking about if was the healthy thing for the moment. they didn’t think about the ramifications.

and it’s just so frustrating. bc i love this show, i do. there’s so much to talk about and so many themes and allegories and cool stuff. but they just... do a lot of stuff that..... really grinds my gears. like this isn’t even a comprehensive list.

#blog stuff #thinky thoughts #i think i like that tag...

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