#anyway lying about this shit isn't Inherently Evil and the idea that it's like. a boogeyman is weird actually | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

paintpencilink · 4 years

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I saw your post about how to figure out between badger and raven secondaries, and I know you're not involved with other two, but could you make a post about those too? I know it's selfish but I find it easier when other people talk about it. I want to be trusted and the right thing is to put in work and time, but it's dreadful, and boring, and I might have a burned snake secondary, even though I'd never say it's the right thing, but it'd be nice to feel cunning and clever.

Hmm! I wonder why you'd "never say it was the right thing." Snake secondary is a legit toolset that can be used in good and ethical ways, so that's not a universal sentiment. It's valid that it bugs you personally, but if you're trying to Sort yourself, that's an interesting question for you to analyze.

As for your question... *cracks knuckles*

Like you said, Lion and Snake aren't my personal toolsets, so I can't go into as much detail about them without stepping into a lot of guesswork. But I can try! I'll be relying on fictional examples, I think, as a crutch.

Snake secondary

The Sorting Hat Chats podcast on A:TLA includes discussion of the 3 Snake secondaries in the cast: Aang, Toph, and Azula. They're all very different in how they use their secondary.

For example! Toph lives almost exclusively in her neutral state, the blunt, "I don't give a shit" mode Snake secondaries can drop into when they don't need or want to use their shifting personas. She can put on other acts, and she delights in fooling people for her own benefit, but usually she doesn't bother. Aang doesn't have a neutral state at all--he's always moving, playing, dodging, finding new angles. Azula isn't really playful, just smug and manipulative, though a lot of that is a cover for insecurity and a shield against being hurt.

You can use Snake secondary without lying. There are lots of ways of framing the truth that don't hide its nature, but people's perceptions are very fluid and malleable, and they're going to skew one way or another anyway. People lie to themselves all the time, and sometimes the thing you need to do is figure out what lie that is and pull it apart.

(I know that sounds weird. Hang on, let me give you something more concrete.)

This is, for example, a lot of what a therapist does. Sometimes their patient's observations of the world aren't strictly wrong, but they're laser focused on the bad stuff or are framing their world in a way that makes things look worse than they are, and they need to see things through a different lens.

Is the therapist being manipulative? No. Are they being persuasive? Hopefully! Is this a powerful tool? Hell, yes.

Snakes are also good at coming up with new ideas, and finding solutions to problems really quickly. Moist von Lipwig in Going Postal restores Ankh-Morpork's postal system as much on his quick thinking and new ideas as he does on persuasion. He makes allies with the workers and charms the media, yes, but he also reinvents the stamps, figures out on the fly how to escape potentially deadly magic shenanigans, fights off a mystery creature in a burning building, and then plots a huge scam using signalling equipment to take down an evil corporation.

Using this side of Snake secondary, and not the charm/persuasion/manipulation side, is a valid way of having and using this secondary. The charm side isn't inherently bad or wrong (one of Aang's more elaborate lies ends a blood feud so old the truth has been lost), but if you're uncomfortable with it, you could invest into this other aspect of the secondary instead.

"Am I a Snake or... [insert]?"

1. a Badger?

Badger secondaries can mistake themselves for Snakes, and vice versa, because there is some adaptation in the Badger skillset. But while Snakes play with the world by putting on masks and performances, Badgers' adaptation is less obvious, partly because it's more genuine, at least in the moment.

This is a quote from Jenny Lawson's book Furiously Happy (one of my very favorite books ever), a story about how she got past her insecurities while recording the audiobook reading for her first book.

(Drug mention joke splatted out, just in case)

I hid in the bathroom and sent out a frantic text to my friend Neil Gaiman (a brilliant author and narrator) telling him that I was panicked and was just about to lose the chance to tell my own story because my voice betrayed just how weak and insignificant I knew I was. He sent back a single line that has never left me:

“Pretend you’re good at it.”

It seemed too simple, but it was all I had so I scrawled the words on my arm and repeated it as a mantra. I walked back into the studio pretending to be someone who was amazing at reading her own story. I finished an entire paragraph without interruption. Then I looked up and the producer stared at me and said, “I don’t know what you just did, but keep doing it.” And I said, “I just did a lot of coc**ne,” and she looked a bit aghast and so I said, “No, I’m just kidding. I just got some really good advice from a friend.”

This is a very Badger secondary tactic: personal adaptation in order to fit a situation.

2. a Bird?

Snake + Bird secondaries are among the more common secondary + model pairings in fiction. @sortinghatchats refers to this as the "chessmaster" trope, and notes how difficult these characters can be to Sort.

It can often be hard to tell which is the actual secondary in these cases. The trick is to find the moment when everything starts to go wrong, when the plans fall apart. When they have to figure things out on the spot, try to see which skill set they fall back on. (The MCU’s Loki, who falls back on deceit and influence when weaponless, is a Slytherin Secondary at heart. The MCU’s Scott Lang, who Macgyvers and gerry-rigs his way through everything from unexpected fingerprint scanners to quantum space, is a Ravenclaw.)

Bean from Ender's Shadow is like this. He's also an example of a Snake user who doesn't really bother lying very often, because the people around him lie so much that usually what he has to do to get his way is actually point out the truth in plain language. My guess is that he's a Bird; he uses both a lot, but often he uses his Snake specifically to get resources for his Bird, rather than on its own.

Actually, often it seems he goes into confrontations with a script, where he's thought about what the other person might say in advance and decided how to respond; it's hard to tell when he's actually making it up on the spot. And there are improvisational situations where he just freezes, although this also has a lot to do with his performance anxiety. Bean really hates that he does this and thinks he should be a better Snake (or, failing that, better at predicting absolutely everything). But I digress.

3. a Lion?

Snakes can mistake their blunt neutral state for a Lion's forthright charge. Inky and Kat call Lion vs Snake "the unstoppable force vs the immovable object" (respectively).

Lions' charging doesn't have to be loud, though. @wisteria-lodge compares them to a battering ram. They're persistent powerhouses who just do not give up (unless something they can't break through actually manages to stop them... and then they can get pretty pissed off and restless), but they don't have to be dramatic or fast to be Lions. Lions in fiction are often flashy, but that's not a requirement.

Lions: "I'm gonna Do The Thing and I'm gonna do it as myself and nobody can stop me!"

Neutral state Snakes: "I don't have to put on a performance right now. This is how I am, and I don't care what you think of it."

Lion secondary

Lions just do stuff. As mentioned above, they're persistent powerhouses and they don't have to be loud or dramatic about it (although they certainly can be!).

Katara is a Lion secondary, and so is Korra. Harry Potter is, too: although he uses Snake a lot (especially to manipulate authority figures), he mostly just does stuff.

Harry's default is to make snap decisions about what to do, and then act on them without hesitation. Take for example when he first gets the Marauders' Map. Fred and George give it to him right next to the secret passage they think he should use, and Harry's perfectly happy to climb in right away, take the passage, and scare the crap out of his friends by just showing up.

Harry's lack of planning does come back to bite him sometimes (see: not thinking to just ditch his Hogsmeade loot in the secret passage before confronting Snape), but his quick decisions are also what save his life every time he confronts Voldemort.

Harry has a Snake secondary model. He uses plausible deniability with a straight face. Tricking Ron into thinking he's been slipped lucky potion through sleight of hand and truthfully denying to Hermione that he'd done it? Explaining to Snape that Roonil Wazlib is "his nickname" ("you know... it's what my friends call me")? That's a Lion secondary using a Snake model in the most Lion way ever. Harry's bullshit runs on his dedication to it.

Also, it's definitely not that Harry doesn't think at all; don't think that you have to be mindlessly reactionary to be a Lion. He's just very comfortable with acting in the moment.

"Am I a Lion or... [insert]?"

1. a Badger?

See, this can be difficult. A Lion has to do things as themself. Anything else, they'll trip over. A Badger can feel very similarly: some types of work, and some methods, are not them. They don't feel right.

Badgers have to believe in what they're doing. Work has to be purposeful, and that's not the same thing as offering a tangible reward. They also need things to be done right, done fairly: it's a very Badger kind of trait to worry about what the back of your embroidery looks like, or whether your code is structured and formatted well behind the scenes.

This level of detail and care put into the things that matter to them is very much wrapped up in a Badger's identity and principles. Being asked to put it aside and fix something important with bubblegum and paperclips can throw them off so badly (and cause such revulsion) that a Badger will start to look like a Lion who's just been asked to fake who they are. Either way, it's not going to work; they'll choke on the process.

(Of course, if you can convince the Badger that actually, yes, bubblegum is the best material to fix the Important Thing, then they'll be on board. You'll probably have less luck with the Lion--they're going to do it their way, whatever you say.)

Both Lions and Badgers are also very persistent, but Lions' persistence is directed at the current moment: they just don't give up. Badgers' persistence is something they patiently store up for the future, and they may not know what future is going to need the resources they're gradually building now.

2. a Bird?

These might be the two secondaries that are least alike, imo. I had to skip this section and come back to it because I had no idea where to start. If you're stuck between them, maybe you have one as a model.

Bird and Lion are both categorized as "solid" secondaries as opposed to "fluid," which means they self-transform less than Badgers and Snakes (who can shape themselves to fit different situations).

There are some very big differences, though. Birds need to prepare, and they need to prepare for the specific situation they're going to face (whether that preparation happened because they knew this was coming or not).

But planning is not a Bird exclusive trait. It's not even a required trait for Birds; yours truly thinks that it's hopelessly tedious except for very specific things. Lions absolutely can plan, and so can Snakes--but both of them thrive on the ability to throw the plan away. Lions do not like to be bound by plans, but their initial existence can give them a sense of direction when they start to charge.

Also, if you're confused between Lion and Bird, I wonder if you're taking the Lion skillset for granted. Some Lions are blatantly obvious to everyone but themselves: they think everyone can just decide instantly what to do and run with it and somehow come out okay. If this is you, I need you to imagine me making this face at you: 😐

3. a Snake?

We've kind of been over this in the reverse section above, but up there we went over why a Snake might confuse themselves for a Lion. This time let's assume you're a Lion thinking you might be a Snake.

I feel like Lions have a pretty solid sense of self in general, so let's go over why they might not recognize themselves, and think they have to be the other Improvisational secondary.

Maybe they have a Snake model that they use to further their Lion. Like Harry, they might get themself out of tight spots with Snake when they need to, but they'd rather be charging.

Maybe they think they're disqualified from being a Lion. Maybe they've had to give up on or change some of their goals because of physical or mental health, and thought of it as a personal failure that a Lion wouldn't fall into. First of all, that's bullshit; and second, it's not about what you're able to do. It's what you want to do, what makes you feel safe, what you're comfortable doing.

Maybe they're okay with lying in certain circumstances and they think that's a Snake exclusive thing. It... really isn't. Also, that almost has more to do with your primary. I know this isn't you, anon, because you said, but it bears repeating for everyone else: don't define Snakes by deceit and manipulation. There's a lot more to it than that.

Maybe they're Burned, and they just use random tactics--whatever works--and think that's what being a Snake is. But Snakes enjoy doing their fun dance where they pick the lock on the universe and other people. Burned secondaries are just exhausted.

Of course, if you *are* Burned, that doesn't automatically make you a Lion--but you might think about whether you're biased toward Snake because Snake's shifting tactics look similar to the "whatever works, I guess..." of a Burned secondary.

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Okay! I think I've covered it. Yikes, this is a long post. I hope it's what you were after, anon; I know you've been waiting a while.

#sortinghatchats #snake secondary #slytherin secondary #lion secondary #gryffindor secondary #paint speaks #paint won't shut up #longpost #long post #very long post #there is no longpost tag on my shc blog because basically they're all long #but this one's a chonker #hufflepuff secondary #ravenclaw secondary

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