#anti chlark
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can you talk about chlark beyond chloe? personally i think it's weird that the writers kept adding kisses and weird romantic moments without any pay off. i don't know much about the fandom back then but i think the writers were baiting fans since clark/chloe seems to be the second most popular ship after clex. second i personally think chloe would never be happy with clark or anyone tbh and she doesn't seem like the type of person who would have kids so the finale was weird to me.
this got looooong :)
0. it WAS weird, and the choice to never not once go for it with them was to the story's detriment. I'll get into it a little later on in this post.
Re: shipping in sv fandom. there was definitely drama (clana was HUGE when the show was airing and every ship was basically derailed by it lol) but I stayed in my clois lane with a small circle of fandom friends much like I do now. a good measure of clois fans were fans of lois and clark from other mediums, come to sv just for lois and clark, myself included. we were pretty insulated as a fandom even back then. I do remember seeing more Chlark after the S5 finale (when Chloe kisses him goodbye), but those dropped off after Jimmy was introduced right away in S6. The most drama I encountered was with Chloisers: Chloe fans who believed wholeheartedly that Chloe was Lois. They hated SV!Lois and were convinced she would die so Chloe could take her name and job and place by Clark's side, thus a Chlark endgame. this was a popular theory amongst that fandom even into s9, when the clois ball started to roll for true.
bait and switch
a lot of Chlark is rooted in this notion that chloe WOULD be the best thing for Clark, the ideal Lois, the true best friend, the human hand guiding him through Earth's troubles. she would be could be the BEST possible lois archetype for Clark. it's not a wrong interpretation. she was specifically written as a lois-and-lana-proxy (teenage lana is a reporter in some AUs and even some as an adult as a tv correspondent) and she's given many lois-ish traits (tenacious, secretly crushing on clark and in denial), but this interpretation is deeply flawed. first, because lois does eventually enter into the picture and she has her own defining traits that, when compared to chloe, make chloe seem much shallower than realized. secondly, within the complete context of the story, her position in the greater narrative is not as ~the one who got away, the way it did very early on in S1-S4, but one who clark tolerates.
they're friends because clark is forgiving and chloe has staying power. their friendship is riddled with insecurities and unknowns the characters create for themselves. their dynamic is defined by conflict, not resolutions. this is not made easy by the fact that chloe is such a strangely written character, but ultimately she is positioned as a counter to clark achieving his happiness. not a thematic narrative foil but an obstacle clark eventually relents to.
2. and it has been so from the get-go
S1 is the best season for them and the single season which actually considers Clark's side in this dynamic. everything about them later on can be explained with how they are in this season. and that's the problem. when they're 14 it's nice teen angst drama and works perfectly to establish the dynamic. when they're 24 it's at best a pattern, at worst regression. we expect certain behaviors, dismiss them too, when it's children, at least I do. clark and chloe never move beyond the dynamic they establish in s1 and early s2. in essence, clark and chloe remain children around each other. they have many discussions in the later seasons that make at least one appear petulant.
so S1 clark has just been told the greatest secret of his existence and he imprints on lana hard that same night (right AFTER jonathan tells him, he meets lana at the graveyard and talks to her for the first time EVER, a lot of childhood imprinting going on in SV). all of s1 follows clark's heartache over lana, watching her from afar and figuring out a way to be near her. this pain is exacerbated by the fact that he believes he caused her her greatest grief: the death of her parents via the meteor shower which he arrived in.
here the first beat of the chlark dynamic is established: chloe's job and passion – the wall of weird and her pursuing the meteor infected oddities of SV - directly affects clark in a negative way (he's suicidal for much of s1-s3). so her crush on him is countered with her unknowingly causing him great grief. om top of that: clark becomes part of this passion of hers and she eventually begins to pursue him as a story to be uncovered, very superman yes. here tho, it causes nothing but strife for them and paints chloe in an awful light (and clark too, highlighting his refusal to open up). I personally enjoy this aspect of them in s1. bc they're so young I give em a free pass and it's a good conflict playing around with old superman tropes, but it makes for a fraught friendship.
3. the second beat
is that neither chloe's crush on clark, nor his asking her to stop pursuing his truth, do anything to stay her. her tenaciousness becomes intrusiveness and inconsideration (many of her accomplishments irt the daily planet are directly bc she betrays clark). she simply will not listen to her friend and does not believe his livelihood and autonomy is worth losing a story over. this is literally the opposite of comics/live action lois lane, who in various versions drops the clark reveal story to protect him. this passion turns vindictive pretty early for chloe, who eventually pursues stories about clark out of jealousy and entitlement (against lana also).
4. the third beat
is that clark doesn't ever see chloe as romantic prospect except this time in s1. the tornado trapping lana pulls him away from any solidifying of the clark/chloe dynamic, and that's that. but we know clark was willing to go for it in early s2 when he apologizes to chloe about running off on her. it's chloe who decides not to go on with the relationship. clark is visibly confused, but also 15 so he can't see that chloe is putting on a brave front to protect herself from clark running off again. I liked this too as it's another play on superman tropes, but my sympathy for them stops here.
5. and stays here
these beats are the entirety of this dynamic. everything about chlark can be distilled down to their childhood. it's why I don't hate them completely, bc I have a lot of love for kids who hurt in such a way and that time is never easy. in s8 (I think its s8) when we get a flashback to when they meet as kids (more imprinting!). little tenacious cute chloe kisses insecure clark bc of the funny awkward tension, acknowledging it, and then immediately takes it back because they're better as friends. (also they’re like 11 lol)
every single romantic moment with them is undercut either by chloe herself, or by the presence of other storylines/romances the writers wanted to pursue. the lack of integrity in chloe and the lack of interest in clark, regardless of how sincere their connection or how messed up, is a central part of their dynamic that needs to be reconciled with their friendship. and its exhausting bc there is never a point they are ever truly comfortable around each other.
6. to a fault
knowing the secret doesn't change chloe's methods. it doesn't make chloe clark's great confidante. if anything, it complicates matters for both because their relationship then becomes about the greater good and clark's great destiny. everything chloe does becomes about that, which in theory sounds awesome, but is executed much the same way as s1!chlark: by reiterating behaviors that highlight the negative aspects of that loyalty and the negative aspects of their characters.
the single time they do actively examine what this loyalty means and how chloe's hero complex complicates things for chlark is with s8 and davis. she protects davis with the skills of subterfuge and secrecy she developed as clark's friend. and it costs her jimmy and a lot of her personal integrity as a character. tho ironically it makes chloe the strongest she's been as a character. this is the first time clark is forced to view chloe as an enemy and he never quite recovers from discovering the dark depths she’s willing to go to.
it's an arc dealing with the established beats: how far chloe is willing to go for a kryptonian (very far), how much she's willing to do for him (A LOT and all of it illegal), and what it costs her (jimmy). it deals with her jealousy (always second choice) and her motivations (uncovering the truth). this great want that she struggled with for years is turned on its head and examined, revealing just how weird and dark her hero complex is because obviously davis is not clark. davis/chloe served to highlight more than any other arc how it's really too bad that clark never saw her that way, because she has so much love to give and when channeled, it's a great force. only it's a great force for evil. clark has to confront that it’s not just lex but his other closest friend who is willing to go so far. they backtrack hard in s9 and s10 but they keep this underlying wariness in clark towards Chloe throughout. it’s not anything new, but it’s no longer subtext that clark doesn’t fully trust chloe.
7. And that's the rub
in the end. chloe and clark have many storylines they're in together and chloe's important.... to develop clark and as a counter to clark. clark never instigates anything, not once, for 9 years! when the show did give us Moments TM, clark is reacting, not actively making choices to connect to her. if anything, clark is incredibly awkward about chloe when they become intimate. he doesn't seem to know what to do with her crushing on him (the elevator scene is a great one to show just how awkward chloe makes him feel). more than that. clark never tells her his secret. and later on, chloe doesn't tell him half the crazy wild shit she does to protect him bc she knows he would disapprove. I still hold that the only reason they work is bc clark is a forgiving character and would give her chance after chance after chance. that's the watsonian explanation, but the doylist explanation is that the writers just never cared to explore them beyond this point.
8. and what was beyond that point?
they would've been a great counter to lexana in S6 and early clana (clark finally having a gf who knows). it’s playing the clark/Chloe as a straight lois/clark proxy before actually pursuing lois and clark. it could’ve been the precursor to davis and caused an even more personal conflict! the kiss at the end of s5 was their chance. they could've written chlark devolving much the same way lexana did in s6 (or not). but again. the writers never went that far and clearly never wanted to. it kept chlark forever in this stage of childhood friendship always on the brink of collapsing, tittering either way. it's also tough to speculate bc clark's just not into her. in fact he becomes more and more wary of her, to the point where he believes she can do horrible things, and he's right. the stories continually make their methods complete opposite.
they go out of their way to show chloe realizing how happy clark is with lois. and even play a joke on the fandom by literally turning her into lois and seeing the sparks between her friends. it's almost... cruel but it does serve to show how clark is when he's smitten and he's never looked at chloe that way except during the dance when they were kids. other unrequited dynamics have at least some spark from the desired, but nil from clark. clark is into chloe in late s1, but she shuts him down, and when he seems to be into her again (damn that s5 kiss was a good one lol), she shuts him down again. it's just a weird writing choice all around, and that they kept nuggets of it throughout the show is the thing I cringe at most whenever I rewatch.
9. bait and switch 2
with hindsight it is definitely ship baiting and that sucks for that dynamic bc without it their friendship would’ve been the stronger, or at least not full of so much negativity. all it did was remind everyone that chloe’s been duped since she was a kid and that clark is both stupid and strange for never noticing and letting her get away with shit just bc she’s the most loyal. I don’t ship them and even I get frustrated lol
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“i’m a big girl i can handle it” except u can’t & ur terrible to clark anytime he rejects u which is why everyone is dancing around u
#anti chloe sullivan#anti chlark#smallville#dc#emily liveblogs smallville#its not like clark’s perfect or anything but ffs#she is irritating me more and more
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shipping ask: 17,13,5.
Sorry for taking so long nonny, your questions demanded more ti.e to think about them ^-^
What is/are your least favorite trope(s)?
Hmm, I guess I dislike soulmates tropes (I am actually writing a fic where I want to turn this concept on its head and show how horrifying it is. I also dislike slow burns, friends to lovers or any kind of pining.
Is there anything you ship but refuse to interact with the community for?
I don't really interect with any fandoms outside of my mutuals (it's a combination of shyness and knowing how terrible fandom can be.
Are there any popular ships that you just don’t like? What are they?
Oh, boy, quite a lot of them: Donna/Harvey in Suits, Jon/Sansa in GOT (thankfully this one is not canon, but the fandom insistance it is....yeah), Rey/Kylo in SW, Alec/Magnus in SH (I am ok, even enjoy the ship itself, but their fandom is something else), any non-Caroline ship in the Plecverse (tho, idk how popular those ships are since a lot of people seem to ship them just because they dialike KC), Chloe/Clark in SV and probably others I forgot.
#thank you nonnie#you know you can come off anon#i always want more people to talk to#so please#with a cherry on top#should i tag all these ships?#let's see#anti darvey#anti jonsa#anti chlark#anti malec#hope those are all#my thoughts#anti reylo#oops#forgot this one
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Do you ship Lex and Lana? Not sure where you are in the series, but I think you'll find it a really interesting ship! I'd also love to hear your thoughts on Clark and Chloe, as separate characters and as a potential couple.
I suppose I probably could if their ages were more compatible (Lex is like, 9 years older than them?), and once Lana is out of HS and even older than that, I might be able to consider it more (a nine year age difference matters less and less when the younger one is 22, 23, 24, 25 or even older than it does when the younger one is 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21). (this is also my issue with Chole x Lex, which I actually have expressed a like for before)
Certainly, most of Lana’s most interesting interactions are with Lex, and they do have an interesting dynamic in general. I don’t ship it really, but we’ll have to see how/if they interact once the characters are finally out of High School (it’s season 3 and they’re not Seniors, IIRC? I miss Buffy’s pacing).
As for Chole - I love her as a character, she’s amazing and cool and I love her drive and passion, I love her heart but also that she gets angry and she’s allowed to get angry (lana does too, but much more rarely). I don’t like her thing for Lana-obsessed Clark, but she’s moved on from that. Or so it seems as of now, but I’m sure they’ll bring it back somehow.
I certainly prefer Clark x Chloe to Clark x Lana, but that’s because I hate Clark x Lana so much. I still ultimately dislike the core trope at work in Clark x Chloe - the whole “we’ve been friends forever and I’ve loved you the whole time and you’ve never noticed me that way and my entire romantic hope is pinned on you suddenly seeing me that way’ dynamic we see With Willow Rosenberg re: Xander, Hermione Granger re: Ron, Barry Allen re: Iris, etc.
I just - I don’t like that trope, and I never have, and while Chole x Clark is preferable to Clark x Lana, that says more about how unutterably boring Clark and Lana is.
As for Clark - he’s okay, mostly, but also infuriating because of his obsession with Lana and the whole “I’m not telling anyone anything but I Expect full honesty from them” but then again, self-righteousness does seem to be both a Kent family trait and a House of El family trait, judging by Smallville and Supergirl respectively, so... that doesn’t surprise me.
Clark is a typical mediocre to good TV show protagonist - enjoyable enough, but suffering from unfocused writing that bounces around and jerks the character’s development all over the place. He’s fine, but the writing can make him not, all too often.
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I have finally figured out why the idea of shipping Clark and Chloe bugs me. Other than "keeping [her] in [his] back pocket", Clark never really had feelings for her. She's his best friend. His BEST friend. He has repeatedly said over the years that he doesn't have feelings for her even if he sometimes wishes otherwise. It's pretty much the friendzone problem except it's the girl that was put into the friendzone by the guy. The way I see shippers sometimes talk about them is really troubling. It's like they don't see the problem in the girl being rewarded for having feelings for the guy for years by ending up with him. If their genders were swapped, so many more people would consider the ship problematic when that reasoning for it is brought up. Also, it's always bugged me when I've read the Chloe = Lois theory because that's just so insulting. They want the actual Lois to die just so their ship can be legitimate?? That's so messed up.
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p1. Me again, so as no to just criticize: I thought the observation that lots of SB impetus for shipping is rooted in being against Iris rather than for their own ship is spot on. I've noticed in a lot of their communications it's more about CS taking Barry away from Iris, than about CS having him. They cannot talk about their own ship without mentioning that 'because B/I have no chemsitry, or is 'boring and their option would be more exciting'.
P2/ they ship SB because they think in comparison SB is better than WA, but that's a terribly shaky ground to have as a ship. I think that's the reason why they're fine with any other white woman. It's about winning one over on Iris. I've never read a single WA fanfic that bashes CS (though I can't say for sure they don't exist). But from what I hear SB fanfics have lots of anti Iris sentiment.
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Well, I certainly think there is a pretty common phenomenon of people shipping as much due to being anti-another ship as they are pro-the ship they’re shipping. I never got THAT into it because I was also hardcore Lois and Clark, even when Lois wasn’t there, but in early days of Smallville, I was a Chlark shipper to the extent that I really couldn’t stand the Clana ship and Chlark was, at the time, the better possible short-term alternative to me. If Lois hadn’t come in and they’d introduced Lori Lemaris, I would probably have shipped it to the same extent and for the same reasons, assuming it wasn’t even more of a train wreck than I perceived Clana to be. (And the second Lois came on the show, any other potential short-term ship would have been forgotten by me. Immediately.)
As for the fanfic...I have also not seen any WA fics that bash CS, though I wouldn’t bet my life there are none out there. And I certainly have seen several that bash Iris. (I’ve also seen Barry/Reader fics that bash Iris.) But I think there’s a pretty clear reason for that.
To write a story where WA is together and endgame and Barry loves Iris more than anyone else he ever has or ever will and so on and so forth, you don’t HAVE to bash CS. Or any other character. You don’t have to get her out of the way. You don’t have to explain why he spent years convinced CS was the love of his life but now he’s realized it’s Iris. There can be 3 million fanfics written about Westallen as depicted on the CW Flash series, picking up directly and seamlessly where the S3 finale left off or as interludes between episodes we’ve already seen in any given season, and if people wanted to, not a single ONE of them would even have to MENTION CS, let alone bash her. And they would still make sense within the universe that has been set up on the series, as logical continuations of the story that has already been told.
Simply speaking, you just can’t do that with SB. You may not have to bash Iris, per se - kill her, make her into a harpy, etc. but at the very LEAST, if you wanted to write a direct continuation that would be a logical progression of where the story could go, you would have to explain why Barry no longer loves (or I suppose if you wanted to spin it, “thinks he loves”) Iris. You might not have to spend chapters on it, but you would have to have some sort of explanation why he’s always been head over heels in love with Iris and why he would suddenly turn to Caitlin after three years and be like, “Oh, wait! I realized I actually love her!”
(The alternative is, as many do, never mentioning Iris by pretending nothing that has ever happened between Barry and Iris actually happened. Which is what you get with fanfics like the ones I used to see in S2, where CS would be sobbing in grief after the death of JG/HZ and Barry would hug her and then they’d start making out and realize they’re actually in love with each other and everything else would be forgotten because now they’re happy together. It doesn’t exactly fit as a logical course the show could or would take, but at least it doesn’t bash Iris. It just pretends entire major storylines - and characterization and logical character development - don’t exist. But not every fanfic HAS to follow rules of characterization or storylines or development. Sometimes they can just exist to scratch an itch.)
But if you wanted to write a story that would be a logical continuation of the canon we’ve been given, since there is not a single damn thing or even hint of a moment within the canon that would so much as breathe a possibility that Barry would ever have reason to or ever would turn to Iris and be like, “You know what? Naaaaah...” You would have to write a story where SOMETHING happened to cause him to change THAT fundamentally. And that means Iris dies or becomes a harpy or SOMETHING. With time and effort and creativity, it COULD be done without bashing Iris, if you genuinely liked her character enough. But for the most part, it’s easiest to just write a story where Barry suddenly realizes what a bitch Iris is and bails. (And if you’re writing an SB fic, you probably don’t want to spend a lot of time doing an in-depth analysis of what causes WA to not work. You want to get to the SB part.)
And also...WA fans don’t have to analyze CS as a bitch, because she’s not a threat to their ship. CS could have never existed on the show, and the impact it would have on the WA ship? Zero. Zip. Removing her from the story may change some things, but it would have NO impact on how WA was told, it wouldn’t make the probability of WA being together happen any sooner or any later. I can think of maybe...a half dozen to a dozen scenes, tops, that would have to be rewritten because the absence of CS would even change the DIALOGUE between WA.
Remove IW from the show and that WOULD fundamentally impact SB. All those scenes where they bonded in the first season because Barry was talking about Iris and Caitlin about Ronnie and how much they loved other people? All would have to be changed. SB still might not happen, but the possibility that it COULD would suddenly be a good deal greater. If for no other reason than Barry would currently not be engaged. Hell, he might even be single. He almost certainly wouldn’t be absolutely and wholeheartedly in love to a degree it’s clear no other ship has so much as a chance.
Iris is very much a very present and very real roadblock to any fantasy ship of Barry and ANY other character. People CAN ship an opposing ship without vilifying Iris, but if you see Iris as standing in the way of the ship you want, you HAVE to vilify her. Because if she isn’t as terrible as you tell yourself she is, what hope do you have that Barry will ever see her the way you do and bail on her to end up with the girl you want him with?
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at least chloe isn’t as creepy as she was. she’s not stalking anyone anymore or trying to guilt clark into dating her. still not a fan of her “not like other girls” attitude
#chloe sullivan#anti chloe sullivan#anti chlark#just to be safe#smallville#dc#i still like lana better tho#and i still dont ship her w clark#emily liveblogs smallville
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Salty asks: 1, 2, 4, 11.
1. I genarally get why people ship things, even if I find it hard to understand how they can read canon this way.
I guess, I was a bit erm.... surprised by the Magnus/Alec fandom considering how lukewarm canon is. I gave up The Magicians recently, bc it bored me, but from S1 I could have told you that Eliot/Quentin will be a filler ship, while fandom seemed very invested in them.
Oh, amd Clark/Chloe in SV, of course.
2. Eh, I mean it heavily depends on canon. In Smallville, Lex/Clark is definitly a no-no for me. I am at S4 in Gossip Girl and Dan/Blair hasn't happened yet. So, while I can appreciate their scenes now, I don't know how I will react to their romance. Oh, and any kind of Jane/Petra interaction falls heavily into the BrOTP category in JTV.
4. Jon/Sansa for obvious reasons, and I will lie if I said their popularity didn't influence me.
Klaus and anyone but Caroline is NOTP material for me, antis can die mad.
Donna/Harvey got togheter this season and it made me cringe.
11. I tend to make my own mind about characters, fandom be damned. So, I am not always sure who is popular and who isn't.
Rose MacClare from DA was apparently disliked, to which I say: You have no taste!
Lana Lang, Paula Agard, Dana Scott are hated by fandom bc they stand in the way of their ships. Vicky Donovan in TVD is so underappreciated. Generally women seem to get the short end of the stick in Tumblr's "feminist" fandom, who would have guessed?
#anti darvey#anti jetra#anti chlark#anti klamille#anti klayley#anti klefan#anti jonsa#anti clex#anti malec#dear God I hope I tagged all the ships I ... badmouthed#bc some of them have cray-cray fandoms#laufire#salty ask#ask game answer#thanks
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@laufire said:
Chloe/Clark was one of my biggest NOTPS back then lmaooo (and Chloe in general was annoying af t b h :P). and 115 is probably my most rewatched Smallville episode (along with Lana’s s8 appearances) lol.
I don't dislike Chloe yet, but there is still time.
But yeah, Chloe/Clark follows the pattern that I saw with many ships: one person is over the top in love with the other to the point of obsession and, as such, fandom believes that they must get togheter. And even if they pair them romantically, it still never works as they would want it, because the other person would never be fully into it
It's one of my main complaints about Darvey in Suits this season. Like, Harvey is into it now, but he clearly feels no joy, more like obligation
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At least at this point maybe Chole will move on from Clark and we can lose the unneeded love triangle? Please?
#Kylia Watches Smallville#anti-Chlark#Anti clark/lana too ftr#I don't care for either one which makes the love triangle especially annoying#No spoilers plz
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Hi there! I just read your Chlark meta post exploring the toxicity of their dynamic and I want to offer a rebuttal/hear your thoughts on Clark + RedK and Chloe. I believe S1-2, and Crimson in S6, explored Clark showing, if not romantically, at least sexual interest in Chloe when he was on RedK, as SV canon has established that it lowers his inhibitions rather than changing him into a different person. I agree that she was never a real long-term prospect for him like Lana and Lois, but there might have been some attraction deep down. Your thoughts?
I agree there was a strong chance for chlark in late s1 and early s2 (and briefly post s5 finale kiss) as it was the single time in the series clark actively reciprocated chloe's feelings, but not so much later on. chloe shut him down in early s2 and then the writers never stopped sprinkling reminders about this almost masochistically. however much they loved to do this, they never attempted to show us a clark who was at all interested in pursuing that course. they seemed to have actively went out of their way to make him confused and later frustrated with her lack of boundaries. was there attraction there? absolutely, and ngl it was sweet, but we also saw clark's lack of interest in her afterwards.
there are two factors to take in when examining clark under the influence of red k. 1) his age. bc needs and wants are different at 16 and 24 respectively. and 2) red k's effects are accumulative. lower inhibitions result in clark having zero impulse control. when he takes red k he'll want what he want at that specific time and whatever he wants to do becomes the entirety of his existence (run away, get married, crash a wedding, etc). when he makes out with Chloe on red k that one time, it's more about him being 16 and horny and the opportunity to go for a joy ride with his friends. of course he's all over her and they're all over each other (and he shows off). they have holdover we-almost-dated feelings this early on so it's good teen drama fodder. the moment that ends though, so does that impulse, just like all the other times he's on red k. does it negate that he had those feelings? not one bit. but it doesn't confirm either that it's what he would do at were he not under red k (that's the point of course of this narrative device). we know, when given the chances, clark doesn't go for it, just like he doesn't pursue lois after crimson despite the episode acknowledging he is attracted to her.
by crimson clark's desire is to stave of jealousy and loneliness. under red k, he pursues lois bc she's making out with him (and he enjoys her company and candor, just like he enjoyed Chloe's company when they were teens), and the moment he sees lex and lana's invitation, he immediately becomes jealous. both choices are impulsive and both touch on clark's intimate relationships with them respectively.
at 16 (he might've been 15??? in s2), clark's impulse is to have fun and make out with Chloe, who he almost dated and is one of his best friends. at 20, his impulse is to hurt her by confronting her position in their dynamic. she's in the back pocket. she's the one he doesn't want or need, but the person he can pull out whenever he wants. I guess it can be interpreted in a romantic way, but there's no separating how dark that moment is, especially since it contrasts with all the cheeky moments when Chloe tries to define their relationship.
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