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buttercuparry · 1 year

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I think people have a wrong assumption about why we don't like Sansa. I mean not to lie, our favourites do play a role in our likes and dislikes of a character- especially if the said character doesn't seem to have a positive relationship with the aforementioned fave but still.

If someone says that we hate Sansa because she is naive and a young girl at that, then personally for me that would be a lie.

Sansa is blamed not because she actually doesn't understand the traps but because she wilfully ignores it even when the said trap is walking up to her with glaring red signs.

Yes she is a pre-teen and like many pre-teens dream of love and being a princess in a song. But Joff hurt a boy. He hurt her sister. She saw what happened- yet still she built a story and continued to believe it, till the prince finally beheaded Ned. This maybe a coping mechanism but this could have cost her sister her life. Even in private, when discussing if Gregor's head would be brought back or mounted on a spike by Beric himself, she dismissed the Trident incident and smugly retorted to Arya that Mycah was the one who attacked the prince. This to her made the Hound's murder of the boy justified and she never even breached the topic of Jaime Lannister killing the northmen.

Notice how no one blames Sansa for what the Tyrells did? Used and then discarded her? Yeah...because she was genuinely manipulated. She was all alone, declared the daughter of a traitor and the discarded fiancé of the King. She had no friends there and Joff took every advantage to be sadistic to her. So the Tyrells, came in, offered comfort, gleaned whatever information they would need and then set Sansa ( maybe even Tyrion?) up to take the fall of the murder.

Notice how no one blames her for falling into LF's trap? Because genuinely no one could have seen how he could have used Dontos to lure Sansa in. And what could she have done then except for taking him up on his offer. Staying would mean death!

But her not understanding that Robert Arryn is slowly getting poisoned to death? Yeah it becomes hard to believe. She either is still choosing to see only that which she wants to see. Or she knows what she is doing. So either she is wilfully ignorant or an accomplice in a murder. You can say that what else is Sansa supposed to do? She is at LF's mercy. She has already been declared an accomplice to Joffrey's assassination, and she was present during her aunt's death too. Yes, the singer was successfully implicated as having killed Lysa- but as slippery and ruthless Petyr is, he won't take well to being double crossed ( even if it's from Cat's lookalike). So you can say, that Sansa has no other option here and be practical about her part in the plan if she wants to save her own skin. But I doubt this is a popular theory.

If all of this is a coping mechanism for her- realizing that she is trapped and needs to be useful and hence is creating this scenario in her head where her cousin needs more than the prescribed amount of sweetsleep to be presentable to the other lords- then how would someone like her ever manage to be in a position of power? I am bringing this up because it has been argued over and over again that Sansa is more worthy of leadership than other women who are currently into politics.

When you compare her to Lyanna in terms of naivete and claim that both these girls in similar circumstances get treated differently because Lyanna had a certain kind of personality, then based on what I have written till now: this becomes yet another lie. Lyanna knew that Ned placating her on Robert's wayward ways had no basis. She saw it as it is and spoke it just so. Robert would never be loyal to her. And that was something she wasn't keen on putting up with. We don't know what happened between Rhaegar and her. Based on her issue with Robert, it seems unlikely that she would be open to an affair with a married man. So someone who is as practical as Lyanna, did she get tricked?

But with what we know of Rhaeger, from so many of his associates- he doesn't seem to be one who would do something so dishonourable. Barristan Selmy when asked about Aerys, told Dany that her father truly was cruel. So it isn't like Selmy is partial to the Targaryens just because they are Targaryens. And when he compares Dany with Rhaeger, he means to compliment her. So Rhaeger had something in him that made him admirable to so many. How can it be then that he tricked Lyanna?

So was it something that was done with Elia Martell's blessing? We don't know. We won't know unless we have the books. But from what little we have, we can still see how different Sansa and Lyanna are as people. I don't think you can compare their situation. At all.

#she is not my favourite character for .many reasons #I have only written this because this is the issue I have come across today

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kittykatknits · 6 years

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Hi hi! I just read an answer of yours where you said you have a theory about Sansa being an empath. I'd love to know more about it but couldn't find anything here. Did you write something about that? If so, could you please send me a link for it?? Bye, and thank you so much, I love your blog! :)

Anon asks: What’s this theory about Sansa being an empath? I never heard about it before.

First, thank you @twiseei for those kind words! :)

Ok, the Sansa as an empath theory. I’ve written about it before, but not actually here on Tumblr that I can recall. It’s not a popular idea, by any means, but there are others I’ve discussed this theory with in the past.

First, Sansa as an empath is something I use as way to engage with the text. It’s not a theory that I would argue strongly for or tag as meta because it’s closer to crack. I believe the fandom term is tin foil, yeah? So, I listed it specifically as my theory because of it. It’s one of those things that makes the books more enjoyable for me. Honestly, I rate this as more believable than Howland Reed is the High Septon but really far down the list when compared to something else, like Aegon is a Blackfyre.

The idea of Sansa as an empath first came to me sometime after aFfC was published, don’t remember exactly when. It was the result of exploring magic as part of Sansa’s story line. Specifically, the idea that Lady is still a presence for Sansa even though the wolf physically died in the first book.

Jon says this in the very first chapter:

Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord.“

Then we get this is in Eddard IV (bold emphasis mine):

Bran’s wolf had saved the boy’s life, he thought dully. What was it that Jon had said when they found the pups in the snow? Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord. And he had killed Sansa’s, and for what? Was it guilt he was feeling? Or fear? If the gods had sent these wolves, what folly had he done?

If the wolves were sent by the gods and the Starklings were meant to have them, then it is possible that Lady’s death alone is not enough to sever the link between Sansa and her wolf? If the link is still there, then that leads to wondering how this link is shown.

Now, we see Sansa’s siblings all have wolf dreams throughout the story, even if they don’t realize that’s what they are. It would make sense that Sansa does not because of Lady’s death. But, there are two incidents that always made me wonder:

Tyrion dressed himself in darkness, listening to his wife’s soft breathing from the bed they shared. She dreams, he thought, when Sansa murmured something softly—a name, perhaps, though it was too faint to say—and turned onto her side.

-Tyrion VII, SoS

We don’t know if it is a name or who’s name it could be at that point. But, it’s possible we are told later:

That night Sansa scarcely slept at all, but tossed and turned just as she had aboard the Merling King. She dreamt of Joffrey dying, but as he clawed at his throat and the blood ran down across his fingers she saw with horror that it was her brother Robb. And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion’s eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. "I’ll have a song from you,” he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. “I wish that you were Lady,” she said.

-Sansa VI, SoS (bold emphasis mine)

She has a restless night, full of dreams and many names appear in that description. Yet, upon waking, it is Lady’s name Sansa refers too. This led to the idea that Sansa may not have wolf dreams in the same way as her siblings, but she still has dreams.

So, if Lady is still with Sansa, how would it be displayed? After all, she’s not up north with Jon and Bran, surrounded by the old gods. She’s not with Arya at magic assassin school. Sansa is in KL and the Vale, interacting with Cersei, LF, Joffrey, and other real winners. Her story features politics, diplomacy, and court intrigue. Her mantra is “courtesy is a lady’s armor.” Superficially, it appears magic plays no role in her story at all. Yet, the old gods sent her a wolf and Lady is still with Sansa, at least in her dreams. There is some magic, even if it isn’t to the same degree as the other Starks.

If magic, and a connection to Lady, is part of Sansa’s story, I wondered what it would look like. Her courtesy, and how to wield it, is a skill that grows in the story. We first see her wielding it in GoT when she meets both Renly and Barristan. Later, it comes out in a more polished manner in her Winds gift chapter. Sansa puts a lot of effort in thinking on what to say, how to present herself, what to wear, and so on. She studies people and tries to determine their thoughts and motivations.

Despite this, there are times when it appears almost instinctual for her. There are other exmples, but I’ll limit this to only a few. First, there is this interaction with Tyrion:

“I would sooner return to my own bed.” A lie came to her suddenly, but it seemed so right that she blurted it out at once. “This tower was where my father’s men were slain. Their ghosts would give me terrible dreams, and I would see their blood wherever I looked."Tyrion Lannister studied her face. "I am no stranger to nightmares, Sansa.

-Sansa III, aCoK

Her motivations have nothing to do with nightmares, but a desire to continue seeing Dontos. The lie came to her suddenly and she blurted it out. It’s different than the lie we see earlier in the book, when she struggles to save Dontos. It comes easier to her and it turns out to be the perfect thing for her to say. Tyrion believes her. Later in the same book, she sings to the Hound:

Her throat was dry and tight with fear, and every song she had ever known had fled from her mind. Please don’t kill me, she wanted to scream, please don’t. She could feel him twisting the point, pushing it into her throat, and she almost closed her eyes again, but then she remembered. It was not the song of Florian and Jonquil, but it was a song. Her voice sounded small and thin and tremulous in her ears.

- Sansa VII, aCoK

It’s very similar to her earlier interaction with Tyrion. She remembered, it came to her, she says it because it feels right. As it turns out, the Mother’s Hymn was exactly the song to give, the influence on the Hound is still being felt when we later meet him as the gravedigger.

Finally, we have this observation by Tyrion:

Without his father beside him holding him up, he would surely have collapsed. Yet when Sansa praised his valor and said how good it was to see him getting strong again, both Lancel and Ser Kevan beamed.

- Tyrion VIII, SoS

That passage takes place during the PW when Tyrion and Sansa are in the yard. Here, Tyrion explicitly describes them performing the necessary courtesies which Sansa does with Ser Gyles and a few others. However, her compliment leaves Lancel and Ser Kevan beaming. Not pleased or thankful, but beaming. If we take into account what happens to the two of them further in the story, Sansa’s compliment is an incredibly powerful thing. Kevan is broken up over what happened to his son, to a degree that Sansa would have no way of knowing about. Somehow, she stumbled upon the perfect thing to say. And she did it effortlessly.

Now, Sansa lies a lot. Like a lot. She lies about her love of Joffrey and loyalty to the IT, which no one believes. She lies about going to the godswood. She lies to SR because some lies are kindly meant. She lies to LF because she knows what he wants to hear, lies and Arbor gold. She lies to the Lords Declarant., thinking how her tears would help. She plans what to say and how to behave all through the books.

Yet, every once in a while, something will spill from her lips, without thought or plans, and each time, they turn out to be the exact perfect thing to say. In the first example, she did it to make sure her escape plans continue. In the second, she did it with a knife to her throat while the Hound is suffering a very obvious break.

Sansa, as a character, is strongly associated with empathy, probably more than any other in the books. She helps Lancel, tries to comfort Lollys when crossing the drawbridge, talks to the women during the Blackwater, understands the Hounds’s fear of fire, and so many other examples I could go on for hours.

But, she doesn’t have a wolf to ride with into battle or protect from an assassin. She doesn’t have a wolf to tell her of the free folk close by. But, that doesn’t mean Lady isn’t still protecting her in some way, even if she is physically gone.

So, what if Lady is that instinctual part of Sansa, the unexplained? If Sansa was meant to have her, maybe she still does in some way.

Also, other traits of an empath that Sansa displays: knowing things without explanation, feeling the emotions of others, knowing when someone is lying (she’s getting much better at this), looking out for the helpless (Dontos and Lollys), creativity (singing and dancing, needlework), daydreaming (think of her love of songs and stories).

Basically, this theory is taking certain traits of Sansa, specifically her natural empathy, which is only growing stronger, and trying to connect it to Lady.

Like I said, this is something I consider closer to crack, the textual evidence is weak. It is not something I would present as an argument when discussing Sansa’s character. However, I do believe there is something to the idea of Lady still being with Sansa, even if we don’t (and never will) understand what that something is. After all, the gods sent her the wolf, Sansa was meant to have her. If Lady is a part of Sansa, then that part is already in Winterfell, waiting for her to return home. And I am absolutely convinced, that connection, whatever it is, is not so easily broken.

#Sansa Stark #anon asks #sansa is an empath theory #my meta #feel free to ask #feel free to ignore

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kittykatknits · 7 years

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Jumping off your amazing Sansa and Sandor meta, do you think Sansa and Tyrion have a possibility of becoming canon? Unlike S*nsan, GRRM seems to like the idea of these two (when Sophie said at Comic Con that they'd be a great power couple, he nodded and smiled) and he did marry them for a reason. If they won't be canon, do you think they'll meet again?

Nope. For starters, I’m about 99.44% certain Tyrion (like almost every POV character) isn’t going to survive, which pretty much negates them becoming canon or ending up together. I also would not read anything into GRRM’s facial gestures on this, he does variants of it all the time. Earlier, when the fandom was smaller, he was much more forthcoming with info but has become much less inclined to do so over the years, so he sure isn’t going to give it away at Comic Con for the tv show.

As for them meeting up again, yes, absolutely.

My current prediction for Tyrion in the books is that he attaches himself to Dany, is with her when she burns Volantis and Pentos, and sails with her to Dragonstone. In Westeros, he will claim CR, which is what Tyrion has wanted as his birthright since the very beginning of the series. However, it will be an empty victory, his niece and nephew will be dead, so will Lancel and Kevan, so will Genna and Devan (this will be after the Freymageddon), and probably Jaime and Cersei too. I hope I’m wrong about the Jaime part though, this is one of my hoped for reunions.

Now for Sansa, her story line has been leading her north and nothing in the gift chapter should make us doubt that is what will be happening. She’ll be outed, she’ll probably marry Harry, and she will go north. Sometime during all this, LF will go down, she’ll get to WF, and finally reunite with Jon Snow. The Harry the Heir marriage is one I’ve argued against for years but the gift chapter and World book pretty much removed my doubts, as much as I dislike it.

For your question, let’s suppose Tyrion lives through the war for the dawn while Harry dies (which he will in canon too), what purpose would it serve? What benefit would either characters gain from it?

I’m not going to spend much time on them falling in love because if this is their idea of an intimate evening meal among newlyweds, well….:

“The pease are overcooked,” his wife ventured once.“No matter,” he said. “So is the mutton.“It was a jest, but Sansa took it for criticism. “I am sorry, my lord.” "Why? Some cook should be sorry. Not you. The pease are not your province, Sansa.“"I … I am sorry that my lord husband is displeased.”“Any displeasure I’m feeling has naught to do with pease. I have Joffrey and my sister to displease me, and my lord father, and three hundred bloody Dornishmen.”

- Tyrion VI, SoS

So, let’s talk about their marriage as political reunion or a way to bring peace and stability to a war-torn Westeros. The question I would have is, how?

Tyrion is a Lannister, a known kinslayer and a (believed) kingslayer. His marriage to Sansa was meant to be another Rains of Castamere by Tywin on House Stark:

“Why, do you plan to mistreat her?” His father sounded more curious than concerned. “The girl’s happiness is not my purpose, nor should it be yours. Our alliances in the south may be as solid as Casterly Rock, but there remains the north to win, and the key to the north is Sansa Stark.”

“When you bring Eddard Stark’s grandson home to claim his birthright, lords and little folk alike will rise as one to place him on the high seat of his ancestors. You are capable of getting a woman with child, I hope?“

- Tyrion III, SoS

Let’s be clear, Sansa’s body is a tool, a means to an end. This is Tywin Lannister, the man who says there is a tool for every task and a task for every tool. After the Red Wedding, Sansa’s child would secure the north for the Lannisters. Notice that Tywin says nothing about her returning north, only Tyrion and the child. She’s a disposable object.

Robb knows it:

“For Winterfell,” Robb said at once. “With Bran and Rickon dead, Sansa is my heir. If anything should happen to me …”

-Catelyn IV, SoS

It’s the reason why Robb created his will, and if he knows the reason why it was done, be assured all his bannerman do as well. Even Stannis knows it, that’s the reason why he calls her Lady Lannister.

So, how is it beneficial to complete Tywin’s Rain of Castamere on the north and Starks? What good does that do? How does that placate a north that is in the process of tearing down the Boltons and Freys? It isn’t peace, it’s giving Tywin exactly what he wants, and if anyone thinks that is a direction Martin will be taking the story, I’d suggest they dig a bit deeper into the legacies of both Tywin and Ned.

Also, if we are talking about a political marriage, it’s important to note the differences between Tyrion and Sansa. First, we need to remember that Tyrion Lannister on the show is absolutely not the character that appears in the books. The guy in the books is not pushing for democracy and he’s pretty damn sexist.

When it comes to Tyrion Lannister, no matter the book or the situation or the characters on page, his moral compass always, always leads him to Casterly Rock. That moral compass of his is pointing the exact same way, from his first appearance all the way though his last chapter in Dance. It never sways. As for Sansa, her moral compass, how she approaches the world, well “I will make them love me.” It’s the exact opposite to Tyrion.

I’m not going to do a complete analysis of Tyrion’s POV, or his character in this, since it would never end. But, let’s look at a few quick examples.

First, Tyrion says this:

“So what will you do, m'lord, now that you’re the Hand of the King?” Shae asked him as he cupped that warm sweet flesh.“Something Cersei will never expect,” Tyrion murmured softly against her slender neck. “I’ll do … justice.”

- Tyrion I, aCoK

Tyrion says he is going to do justice, but remember, that moral compass is pointing to Casterly Rock.

“A daughter will suffice where there is no son. They shall be treated gently and given high places here at court, so long as their fathers commit no new treasons.”

Tyrion glanced toward Sansa, and felt a stab of pity as he said, “Until such time as he frees my brother Jaime, unharmed, they shall remain here as hostages. How well they are treated depends on him.” And if the gods are good, Bywater will find Arya alive, before Robb learns she’s gone missing.

-Tyrion XI, aCoK

Let’s be clear, Tyrion loves his brother dearly and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, Jaime is a grown man and a soldier while Sansa is twelve and completely defenseless. At this stage in the story, she’s also been subjected to months of physical and emotional abuse via Joffrey and Cersei. Is the subtle threat to Robb on his sister’s treatment something Ned Stark would do or Tywin Lannister? Does this look like justice?

Now let’s look at a couple nuggets during their marriage. Tyrion goes from this:

What difference did it make? They were laughing at him all the same. The only person in the Red Keep who didn’t seem to find his marriage a source of amusement was his lady wife. Sansa’s misery was deepening every day. Tyrion would gladly have broken through her courtesy to give her what solace he might, but it was no good. No words would ever make him fair in her eyes. Or any less a Lannister. This was the wife they had given him, for all the rest of his life, and she hated him.

- Tyrion IV, SoS

to this:

He made certain not to look at Sansa, lest his bitterness show in his eyes. You might have knelt, damn you. Would it have been so bloody hard to bend those stiff Stark knees of yours and let me keep a little dignity?

- Tyrion VI, SoS

Sansa is miserable and deeply grieving. If you read her chapters during the PW, she is almost suicidal. She’s witnessed her father’s death, been threatened and assulted, beaten, forcibly married, molested by Tyrion, and been told her remaining family has been killed by Lannisters and Lannister allies. Yet, Tyrion is certain her feelings towards him are because of his looks, he never reflects on any of the above. He never makes the connection that Sansa’s feelings towards him are because she understands exactly where that moral compass points. He is a Lannister, he is her jailer. Let’s also never forget, that not once during their marriage, does Tyrion sway on where his loyalties lay. He may despise his sister and nephew, he may hate Tywin even more, but he’s still working to keep them in power. Sansa is very, very aware of this.

Sansa though, she comforts the women during the BBW, she helps Lollys, she offers help to Lancel, she tries to stop the bread riot, she saves Dontos, she prays for Sandor and so many others. I could go on here. But, she does all that, when she has no power and nothing to gain. Sansa acts to make people love her.

Either way, this is a thought exercise. He’s dying, going out in a blaze of glory fighting the others.

As to how they will reunite, I believe it will take place at some point during the battle against the others. It’s important to note, that as smart as Tyrion (and many readers) think he is, the man does not know Sansa at all. He constantly underestimates and dismisses her.

Let’s start with Clash. Here, Sansa gives the perfect lie so she can keep visiting the godswood when he’s on the verge of making her his prisoner in the hand’s tower:

- Sansa III, aCoK

She does it again here:

. “I confess, I know little of the old gods,” he said, trying to be pleasant. “Perhaps someday you might enlighten me. I could even accompany you.”“No,” Sansa said at once. “You … you are kind to offer, but … there are no devotions, my lord. No priests or songs or candles. Only trees, and silent prayer. You would be bored.”

- Tyrion XI, SoS

There is also this:

Either Sansa had been stupid enough to confide in one of her bedmaids, every one of whom was a spy for Cersei, or Varys and his little birds were to blame.

- Tyrion IV, SoS

Sansa had all this figured out in the last book but Tyrion is now coming to it? No way would Sansa talk to her maids, and the fact that Tyrion even considers it, shows us how little he knows her.

Again, Tyrion really does not know Sansa at all:

Does she wish it were her in Margaery’s place? Tyrion frowned. Even a child should have better sense.

-Tyrion VIII, SoS

Every reader knows that she has no wish to be in Margaery’s place. She was assaulted, beaten, and terrorized by Joffrey for months.

So, despite living together in court for quite some time, and being married for a short while, Tyrion really only knows the superficial self Sansa puts forth. She’s beautiful, grief stricken (duh!), courteous, and not all that smart. This is going to be very, very relevant at some point.

Hopefully I answered your question, anon!! Thank you for the ask!

#Sansa Stark #sansa stark meta #ASoIaF #asoiaf meta #asoif speculation #anon asks #feel free to ask #feel free to ignore #sansa lannister #isn't going to happen

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