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eremiss · 4 years

Note

I do have another, unprompted question that keeps coming to mind whenever I read Gwencred: What happens when she learns he's been swiping and reading her journal all this time? Does she know already and "allows it"? It upsets me whenever he does it, as it's such a perfect not-so-great habit for him (and one of those "wish I'd thought of that" things).

This answer is best described as, “A collection of thoughts interspersed with writings”. It got pretty long, oof haha

Gwen becomes a bit suspicious that Thancred is occasionally a little too insightful around the time of Heroes of the Hour and Litany Of Peace MSQ in Dragonsong War/Post-HVW through a combination of little slips of the tongue on his part and catching him in her room once, which he was able to play off…mostly.

I haven’t hammered out the exact moments of her suspicion and gradual realization, or any sort of confrontation about it, direct or otherwise, but I do have a relatively solid handle on Gwen’s line of thought– where it begins, where she goes while overthinking it, and where it ends up. And I also have roughly written out a point where she’s presented with proof that he was most definitely stealing her saved pages and reading her journal right at the end of StB.

—

Her initial reaction was to kind of try and brush it off. “What? No, no he wouldn’t…” But then she thought about it for a little bit and… “…except yeah, he juuust might.”

She had bigger things on her mind then and half-wanted to think she’d imagined it or, if she hadn’t, that it was a one-off situation. She stewed on it for a little bit and, though she never caught him trying to read over her shoulder or going through her saved pages, found herself torn between ‘yes, he did’ and ‘no, he didn’t’ and not entirely sure how she felt about it.

Rather than accuse him or try to confront him about it, she decided to simply keep her journal close or on her person rather than leaving it in her desk or in her room, and was also a bit more sparing about what she wrote in it. She covered the change of behavior by claiming she had a lot on her mind and was frequently busy, so she needed to be able to take any opportunity she could get to write.

In the following few weeks it seemed like Thancred wasn’t quite so insightful or on-the-ball in trying to get her talking about what was on her mind, or picking at it in ways that offered new perspectives.

But then, strangely, everything seemed to go back to normal. Odd. Perhaps it had been her imagination the whole time. Or maybe he’d gotten sneakier. (it was the latter)

Which left her feeling a bit…paranoid. Still, she avoided confronting him. Partially because she simply didn’t want to, and partially because she still hadn’t fully sorted out her feelings yet. She didn’t want to be wrong and, more subconsciously, she didn’t want it to be necessary/didn’t want it to be true, in a way.

Nothing much seemed to change on his end, as he didn’t act differently or treat her differently, nor draw any conclusions about how she was keeping her journal close aside from one teasing inquiry as to why she was suddenly carrying it around like a teddy bear.

He’d been fairly aware, as usual, of when to seek her out and provide a bit of company, and that hadn’t stopped during her ‘trial period’ either. And he barely missed a beat in terms of talking with her and giving advice, so…?

But the more she thought about it, the more she came to think that brief period sort of was, and sort of wasn’t, proof. They were both apart for a portion of that time, meaning he would need time to catch up to her current situation, snooping or not. Whereas before, when she’d begun to be suspicious, they’d been in relatively constant contact. It’s a lot easier to be insightful about things you know about, isn’t it? And even then, when she thought he’d snooped, he didn’t always have the right answer or good advice anyway; and he didn’t always say or do the right thing. He wasn’t perfect, and he had his own life and his own problems and responsibilities to worry about. So was this even really all that odd? Or was she just reading into it because of her own suspicions?

She talked herself in circles like this for quite a while, torn about whether or not she was being paranoid and what she should actually try to do about it. Confronting him would be the simplest plan, but she really needed to have her feelings on the matter sorted out first, right? and what if she was wrong? Then what?

And then he had all gone back to normal, even though she’d been more protective of a journal… But perhaps he was just a bit more clever than her and had managed to read it again. While that wasn’t ideal, if it was the case, being able to lean on his insight and his advice again had been a relief…

…Oh.

So… If he was snooping, which she couldn’t fully bring herself to admit, then it….was helpful. Kinda.

She didn’t like that he might have been reading her journal or prying, but at the same time, if it helped him talk to her, and thus helped her…? They were still close, they still talked, they still leaned on each other…

Hm…

After a bit of debate, and rather at a loss for what to make of the whole thing or what she should do about it, Gwen stopped being quite so protective of her journal. In part, she was simply tired of it, it was another thing to have to think about all the time, and partially she wanted to see what would happen, or if she’d catch him again. Then, she told herself, they’d have to have a talk. After seeing that nothing she wrote ever really came back to bite her –unless she counted Thancred being more aware of her mood or the increased likelihood of efforts to assist with whatever problem she was tied up in as ‘biting’– she gradually went back to writing as she always had, with a few exceptions, such as her suspicions or venting about friends (which she never did much of anyway).

Her feelings about the whole thing were, are, and will continue to be rather complicated. But they’ve simplified somewhat since the beginning.

She lowkey wants to write something like ‘so are you gonna fess up or do I actually have to catch you red-handed’ in her journal and wait for him to find it. But then she’d have to, you know, deal with the results, and she isn’t entirely sure what would happen, so she’s held off so far.

By late-StB and into ShB, after sort of settling with the whole idea, her mindset is hovering around something like:

– A little bit still annoyed for violating her privacy, and a little bit… nervous and hurt, in a sense, that he hasn’t come clean about it and seems to have no plan to. At the same time as she understands why that’s a rather intimidating proposition, she wishes he’d trust her a bit more and not feel like he had to keep it secret.

– Being more mindful about her phrasing but not censoring herself entirely, which usually results in a lot more writing, marking out and then re-writing to reword and rephrase things. Annoying as it is, and as little as she likes the bit of paranoia and worry (worse at sometimes than others) that inspires it, the rewording and rephrasing does actually help her think about things a bit more thoroughly and carefully than she would otherwise.

– Over time she came to appreciate that he doesn’t share her secrets with anyone (or maybe he does on certain occasions, because sometimes Y’shtola is far too aware of her health) and he hasn’t used anything he’s read against her, at least not so directly as using it as justification to dismiss or discredit her opinions and concerns, nor does it ever seem to affect or change his view of her–negatively and/or outwardly, at least.

(((That’s not to say he hasn’t ever been less-than-happy with something he’s read, particularly about himself, but he’s the type to brood and stew on things rather than immediately go running to confront her over it. Eventually he remembers that he has his own opinions, gripes and flaws, and just because he can work them out in his head while she needs to write them out on paper doesn’t make hers any more intentionally hurtful or antagonizing than his.)))

– She tries to look out for the Scions’ mental health, mostly through making sure they rest and getting them talking about their problems even as she tends to bottle up her own, and reading her journal seems to be Thancred’s way to look after her. He uses her journal like a guide for when and how she needs a hand talking out a problem, or when someone needs to make her step away and breathe for a minute. He offers his opinion and advice and helps her work through hard topics, but he doesn’t tell her what to think. He presses on certain issues when he thinks he needs to, sometimes a little too hard, but in the end the questions and pushing serve to make Gwen reevaluate and reaffirm her reasoning for her decision, and thus lead to her holding to it more strongly. Once she’s proved her convictions he doesn’t try overly hard to change her mind, even when it isn’t necessarily a decision he agrees with. (“I was really hoping you’d change your mind about fighting two primals at once. This did not go as planned. But you’ve made up your mind, so…”)

– It is a Struggle for Gwen to fully explain and vocalize her concerns and worries, particularly when it comes to more tangled or complex issues and things she blames herself for. Most because she’s self-conscious about rambling or ‘word vomiting’, which tends to happen when one is in the midst of trying to process their thoughts and feelings on a situation, and also when one feels they need to justify why their thoughts are what they are; and, going along with that, she doesn’t want to say the wrong thing or give the wrong impression of a situation. Writing things down gives her the chance to work stuff out herself and get all of the pieces in order and in the right place, even though it doesn’t grant much opportunity for outside perspective or trying to view things from a new/different angle.

And once it’s written down and in order, then she’s ok talking about it. But, ah, well, you know… it’s all worked out and in order, so nevermind, don’t worry about it.

How much she really needs someone to be able to fill in the gaps and ‘see the end picture so they can help sort the pieces’ in order to properly discuss or address whatever is bothering her is really brought to light during Stormblood when she and Thancred spend moons apart. Gwen finds that, even after she’s sisterly-levels of close with Alisaie and Lyse and even after they prove how well they know her and how she tends to think/act, she can’t really talk with them quite the same way as she can with Thancred. They don’t mind her rambling, but they both tended to try and stop her and address each little thing as they came up, rather than going along and letting her train of thought keep going forward, either giving minor fixes along the way or waiting till the end and addressing all at once like Thancred tended to.

Why, though? Other than personality, anyway.

Well, it’s easier to reach the finish line when he already knew where it was, which meant he used her rambling to fill in a few holes and adjust the route, rather than trying to blindly follow the winding path she was making.

By reading her journal Thancred can much more easily ‘meet her halfway’ or jump straight to the end or the important parts of a problem because he already has a general understanding of the situation and her mindset. Already being aware of what she was thinking let him more easily straighten out crooked ideas or misconceptions and redirect lost trains of thought, which helped her clear up questions or finally reach a resolution. Talking with someone else also offers a chance for different perspectives, and helps her get better about reevaluating situations and problems.

In particular, being able to reliably talk to Thancred got her in the habit of seeking advice for a current/upcoming problem, rather than asking for an opinion after the fact.

((Her time in Doma in StB, aside from making her realize how bad she is about talking to others about her problems in general, also served to make her reassess how she goes about explaining whatever is on her mind, as well as explaining why she’s feeling or thinking that way. She learns that a bit of word vomit while she gets her thoughts together isn’t bad so long as she doesn’t start talking in circles, and she both gets quicker at organizing her thoughts and better and maintaining a steady, if not straight, stream of consciousness/line of thought in a sense, as opposed to jumping around topics or cutting herself off. She was more open with Alisaie pre-ShB. At the end of 5.0, when she realizes why she’s been so off and what the light is doing to her, she works harder to be more open with everyone –and particularly Y’shtola where it concerns her health– and rely less on her journal in general))

tl;dr: she’s come to view it as sort of a good-but-not-great thing, though she wouldn’t go so far as to call it a ‘necessary evil’. She still isn’t entirely happy with it, but she appreciates the results and the motives/thought behind it, so she has sort of decided to just leave it be for now. She still hopes Thancred will fess up on his own one day. The longer that doesn’t happen, the more tempted she is to try and find a way to bring it up.

—

Post-”The Call” I loosely headcannon’d that Urianger came to Ala Mhigo to both check on Thancred and support the other Scions. While Thancred is being transported back to Mor Dhona, Urianger reluctantly approaches Gwen and gives her some papers he found in Thancred’s possession (probably his pocket). He claims he didn’t read much, just enough to recognize the handwriting and realize that they were writings rather than correspondence or some missive that Thancred had intended to deliver. He doesn’t really sugarcoat it, “They were in his possession, though I cannot claim to know why. You must needs ask him once he hath awakened.”

Feeling particularly out of sorts for a variety of reasons, Gwen admits that she’s suspected it for a while, “But I didn’t try to find out for sure.” There has always been a nasty little question poking around about how much Thancred truly knew her or just what she wrote, which was most of the reason she never tried to confront him or catch him in the act. She more or less knew, but sorta-kinda didn’t want to know, and she honestly was able to ignore that poking little question more often than not.

I actually had written out a bit of her talking it out with him, so I’ll put it here as I’m pretty sure I’m never actually gonna write that particular scenario out in full. Somewhere before this particular dialogue, Gwen mention that her writings in her journal are ‘rambling bits and pieces’:

“If thou wouldst allow me a presumption.”

Gwen glanced curiously at him and nodded.

“To mine eyes it doth appear as though he used those ‘rambling bits and pieces’ of thine thoughts, as thou so phrased it, to try and provide a solution for thine ills.”

“I–” Gwen paused, her mind all but stopping for a moment while she considered that. The idea had occurred to her a while back now, though she’d wondered if it had merely been an excuse. “That– Well…”

“I will not claim to know his mind, but I do know him, and through that mayhap thou mightest find insight. I have no answers, only speculations, but I would share them, if thou art willing to listen?”

Gwen nodded, the motion helping to get her brain working again.

The Elezen took a slow breath, the expression on his face speaking of intense focus dedicated to choosing his words. Eventually he spoke, “Tis my understanding that you oft sought him for comfort and to confide thy troubles, even outside of thine writing, yes?”

Gwen nodded slowly.

“Why?”

“Well, he…” She paused. Her mouth turned down in a slight frown, descriptions and explanations slipping through her fingers like fine sand. ‘Part of his charm, back before the Banquet when he cared more about that sort of thing, had been being approachable and easy to talk to’ seemed insubstantial, not to mention it was so far in the past now; ‘he always had sound advice, or he could at least put stuff in perspective or say it some way that made me consider it differently’ felt off because she didn’t know how big of a hand her journal had had in that, so…

“He offered assurance, counsel and a steady hand in equal measure when thou wert in need of them?” Urianger offered.

That was basically what she was thinking, yes. Gwen nodded slowly.

“While his words may not have been entirely his own, I should think there was more to his reassurances than merely parroting thine tumultuous writings back to thee, correct?”

Gwen’s lingering frown pulled slightly to one side. She hadn’t really thought about that, but… it was accurate. Her eyes wandered and she dipped her chin in another nod.

“He did not merely read and repeat thine own troubled words in an effort to be the answer to thine problems. Rather he gathered and deciphered thine scattered thoughts and made of them tools that thou couldst use to craft thine own solution.”

Well… Well, that was rather accurate, too, if a bit overly-poetic. Thancred had always given guidance, advice and his own opinion, but he’d never explicitly given her instructions or answers–at least not directly. She’d had to settle her doubts and fears herself, he’d just… offered a steadying hand and a little push.

Urianger let that hang for a moment before quietly offering, “I should think a man who knew thee naught would struggle with such a task, even with thine journal; a map is only so much help to a traveler in unknown surroundings, particularly when they know not how to read it.”

Gwen adjusted her gloves with little tugs and twisted her bracelets, burning a little energy in an attempt to keep her thoughts from running off without her while she considered that. It was an interesting point. Hm. No wonder Thancred could read my botany notes so quickly. He had practice. “That’s,” she admitted slowly, voice soft and withdrawn, “not inaccurate, I guess. But that doesn’t change the fact he hid it from me.”

“Nay, it doth not.” Urianger said with a long-suffering sigh that wasn’t aimed at her. “Nor doth it excuse his disregard for thine privacy. Know that I do not condone his methods, well-intentioned as they may have been.”

Well-intentioned. She hadn’t really let intentions weigh in on her consideration very much. Somewhere in her mind she’d told herself he meant well, but the idea hadn’t held a lot of weight until just then. Intentions matter, do they not? Sometimes? At least a little?

After the silence had stretched and settled comfortably, Urianger spoke again, “I cannot speak for him, nor any other, but if thou wouldst allow me one more presumption?”

His perspective had been a bit uplifting so far, and it had certainly gotten her thoughts moving again. Plus, his voice was a welcome alternative to the silence and the chattering worries and questions filling up her thoughts. “Please.”

Urianger huffed softly and nodded, folding his arms with a look of serious consideration. “Our dear friend is a fool, as we all know, but he is not foolish. I am sure he knew the fine line he walked every time he stole into thy mind and with every occasion that he put his discoveries to use. To blunder or slip would have aroused suspicion, just as would being too brazen. Thus doth he live in hypocrisy with his decision: believing his actions, if not righteous, sufficiently judicious to merit repetition, even as he maketh every effort to hide them from thy sight that he might not be made to throw himself upon thy mercy or beg clemency, nor face thy retribution should he be denied.

“Whatever his reasons, he knowingly risked thine trust for the sake of insight, even as the ramifications for his actions hung heavier with every repetition and each day he chose continued secrecy over transparency.”

“And soon it was too big to even hope to get out from underneath,” Gwen mumbled.

Urianger nodded. “He is not so naïve as to believe that, should his well-intentioned subterfuge be brought to light, thou wouldst merely take umbrage with the moment at hand and dig no deeper. Thou wouldst likely not assume the revelatory act to be the initial occurrence, nor a singular one, which would surely lead thee to ponder prior instances. To wit, his every act, every conversation and moment of insight, would be called into question and scrutinized under a lense of doubt, hindsight and damaged trust. Thus he found yet another justification for his secrecy.” He gestured vaguely between the both of them with a sardonic arch of one brow, “In that, at least, it appears he was right to worry.”

Gwen rocked back and then forward, mouth twisting in a grimace. At the same time as it sounded a little paranoid and ‘worst case scenario’, that line of thinking was perfectly reasonable. Even if she hadn’t been somewhat aware of his prying, Urianger presenting her with solid proof that Thancred had stolen her private thoughts even once would be enough to make her wonder, at least briefly, if it had happened before.

Her suspicion, and her reaction to finding out what he’d been doing, were reasonable things to worry about. Maybe Thancred didn’t quite follow the lines of thought Urianger presented, but she doubted the Elezen was too off the mark.

Gwen wanted to think Thancred didn’t need to worry so much. It would be rough, but surely they would be able to work it out–after trust was damaged, after uncomfortable questions, after time and a lot of work. And even then, once the dust had settled, they wouldn’t really be the same.

Or would they, maybe? ‘They’ hadn’t changed overmuch since she began to suspect he’d been reading her journal, after all.

But ‘not overmuch’ isn’t ‘at all’, and suspicions weren’t the same as proof or a confession.

Whatever happened, and however it turned out, ‘they’ would not be the same if he ever came clean or was caught in the act. What would change and how much, and what would recover, was near-impossible to guess.

Right to worry indeed…

Gwen huffed softly, realizing her expression had started to tighten into a cringe.

Seeing that she’d had enough time to let that sink in, Urianger continued, “And for his perilous duplicity Thancred was rewarded with the means to better understand thee, and thus did he learn how to grant thee and thy troubled mind a modicum of succor. He gave thee clarity when thine thoughts grew clouded, and crafted stability and from thine tremulous doubts.”

That was a more poetic and metaphoric way to describe it than Gwen could have ever come up with, but that didn’t make it any less accurate. She shifted in her seat, glancing down at her hands and her nails, chipped and picked down to nubs.

“Pray consider: of what value would that be to one who cared naught for thee?”

Urianger is best wingman ha.

Best wingman who, notably, does not tell Thancred that Gwen had not only already been suspicious (for quite a while) that he’d been reading her journal, but now knows it for a fact. His reasons basically boil down to:

1) Plain and simple, it’s just not his business. It isn’t Urianger’s place to bring up the matter for Gwen, regardless of the fact she’d had her own suspicions before he approached her on the Source. He has no right to try and force the issue in her place, directly or via hints/subtlety, especially when she both didn’t express any desire for him to do so and hadn’t made any attempts to bring up her concerns or confront Thancred herself. This whole thing is their problem that they have to solve themselves in their own way, and he can’t just insert himself into it–at least not more than he already has. Him revealing (but in actuality confirming) Thancred’s snooping to Gwen was an entirely different situation than telling Thancred that he done been found out. And, after the fact, he’s a little torn whether or not he even should have told Gwen what he’d discovered in the first place.

2) Gwen continued writing in her journal despite knowing her thoughts weren’t private, and seemingly didn’t make any efforts to make her journal or saved pages more difficult to access (in the long run), or at least she didn’t do anything obvious that might have alerted Thancred that he’d been found out. Why? How much did the whole thing even bother her, anyway? He couldn’t really tell–partially because even Gwen didn’t know how she felt about it, even after being suspicious for so long. She wasn’t very outwardly upset at his revelation, but the whole thing happened shortly after Thancred lost his soul, so she had much bigger concerns at the time. How much did that influence her feelings on the matter? Probably a lot. When the dust settles and they’re reunited again, what will happen? Urianger has no idea. It’s Gwen’s issue to confront and resolve, and attempting to speak for her just runs the risk of giving the wrong impression, creating false expectations, putting words in mouths and making the whole thing a mess.

3) It wouldn’t have done any good, either right then or over the long-term. Thancred was clearly already in some shit by the time Urianger arrived on the First, what with dealing with being stranded on his own on a strange world, raising little Minfilia and trying to get his own thoughts and emotions in order. He already had enough going on that he wasn’t handling well, and telling him, “Hey that thing you were doing to try and be helpful even though it would probably utterly ruin your relationship with Gwen if she found out about it? Gwen found out about it. Because of me. I’m the one who told her.” would do nothing but give him more problems. It would be another burden for him to carry and be angry, stressed and worried about. He already had situations that he couldn’t resolve or ‘deal with’ himself in the form of being stuck on the First, Minfilia and Mini-filia, and then the revelation of Urianger’s prophetic vision of the Scions and Gwen dying; telling him he’d been found out would just be another thing simply beyond his ability to resolve, which would mean another thing for him to agonize over and stew on until Gwen arrived… whenever that finally happened. Not to mention that, if Urianger chose not to come clean himself, Thancred would probably quickly figure out he had been the one to tell her, and that would only make a bigger, more complicated mess and more hurt feelings, which neither of them needed.

————-

Thanks to the ever wonderful @evangeline-cross and @rhymingteelookatme for beta-reading and helping with Urianger’s dialogue XDDD

TUMBLR WHY DO YOU LET ME PUT A READMORE IN THE ASK RESPONSE AND THEN DELETE IT EVERY TIME FFS

#Thancred Waters #Guinevere Ashe #Gwencred-ish #This took a while XD #Was definitely more of a nebulous 'yeah hmmmm' sort of secenario #rather than anything concrete #my writing #asks #so I had to actually stop and sort some stuff out #this is actually shorter thanit usedt ob e rofl #long answer is long #I'm so proud of the Urianger dialogue tho ngl #Thancred got CAUGHT #when you're expecting to just go about your day like normal #and then your fucking soul is stolen #and it throws of your plans lol #Thanks for the ask!!!#Answered

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