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docfuture · 4 years

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Princess, part 12

[This story is a prequel, set in an alternate 2012, several years before The Fall of Doc Future, when Flicker is 16. Links to some of my other work are here. Updates are theoretically biweekly. Next chapter is partly done so I’m going to try to get it out early in September.]

Previous: Part 11

Recovery--and a start at change and learning. Flicker thought about the wrap up of her first session, and Stella's comments on paying a bit more attention to the ways other people were already helping. "... and I just suppressed thinking about it at all because the frustration got real bad when I didn't," Flicker had said. "Understandable," said Stella. "Did you consider talking to Armadillo?" "I talked to her about some general stuff, but she's... old." Stella nodded slowly. "I can see how the Database might have given you the impression that sex was invented sometime in the 60s. And Armadillo was already middle-aged by then." "That's not fair. It just that the primary sources were so indirect and coded about it. And left so much out. The Database doesn't..." Flicker frowned, then sped up to check a few things. After a while she slowed back down. "Well, crap," she said. "I learned most of my 20th century history when I was randomly bouncing around the Database reading whatever caught my interest when I was 11 or 12. So I missed stuff. And I didn't go back, and made some implicit assumptions." "You might find a discussion with Armadillo illuminating," said Stella. "Have you considered that Doc might not be the person contributing the most to the collective judgement of your social maturity level that the Database uses to set your default access levels? He seems willing to delegate to people he trusts, and of those, Armadillo clearly has had experience with children." "Oof. No, I hadn't thought of that." Flicker sighed. "Sometimes I wonder about the amount of time I spend mentally running circles around things without looking at what's at the center." "Don't be too harsh on yourself. You blame most of your social difficulties on mental differences, poor references, and lack of practice. But the form of your education mattered, too. You never went to school before your graduate work, and you did most of that remotely. You learned from Doc, the Database, and direct observation--primarily of static scenes because of your speed. And the bulk of educational material in the Database was written by and for typical humans, with all the embedded assumptions that entails." "I really like the Database. And the summaries help." Stella shook her head. "Not always. Not if you don't know what's missing. The Database AI made judgements when you were younger about what was appropriate at the time. This shaped your knowledge map, which was already going to be very different from most humans. So do your Database access restrictions. Information revealed selectively or out of order can harm. And if the Database can't reveal A to you--for, say, privacy reasons--and revealing B without A would cause harm, it will restrict B as well. I'm sure Doc must have warned you about that." "Yeah, but a lot of his restrictions seem arbitrary." "Many will, if done right. Database restrictions can and do cause bias problems, but overriding them is inherently risky. The Database AI has to balance that, and there are no optimal choices, because the whole idea of the Database as an 'objective' knowledge map is a illusion. The Database is biased by what gets recorded. Your access to it is further biased, and what you actually do access is even more biased. But the idea that you are necessarily getting closer to impartial truth when you override a warning is dangerous." "So I can mess myself up with overrides." "You already have. Repeatedly. Information shaping is one of my more powerful tools. Cruder forms of it are in widespread use and getting more effective every day. But perceptions come pre-shaped." Stella had sipped from her cup of coffee before continuing. "For example, you are highly proficient in many math-heavy technical subjects not usually mastered until graduate school, and awkward in areas typically covered by early childhood education or peer group socialization. So when you made your implicit assumptions? Of course you missed things. However." Stella was good at an 'I have a secret to share--eventually' style of speaking that was both mildly annoying and very effective at focusing attention. "Yes?" said Flicker. "Anyone would. You just missed different things. Others might have helped with some of them. But no one could predict them all. Not Doc, not the Database, not me. So do what you can, but don't be too hard on yourself when mistakes happen." "Ah. I'll try to remember that." ***** Flicker tried to follow Stella's initial guidelines, which focused on short term recovery, stabilization, and 'stop making this worse'. Avoiding patrols was the most important and hardest to follow advice. Physical therapy and exercise were tedious, but not difficult. The dietary changes... were trickier. Flicker had lost weight from the accident and the isotope exchanger sessions which she really couldn't afford. And her kind of pseudo-shapeshifter healing depended on adequate body mass. Stella forwarded some funny essays on cuisine and recovery for shapeshifters supposedly written by a French werewolf, and had the Database reset her food and drink related warnings, with an eye to both mental and physical health. She'd also pointed out to Flicker that it only took a few early incidents of plasma in the GI tract while pushing the limits of her entropy dumping to cause lasting aversion to eating much while on call. So when she later started to feel like she was on duty almost all the time, she stopped eating proper meals except with friends. Staying off patrol for now made it possible to change that, but not easy. Theoretically, she could eat like an Olympic athlete in training while exercising appropriately, and recover quite quickly, but that wasn't realistic. She was stubborn, but so were her habits. She couldn't patrol, but she could keep busy by surveying--updating Database geographical and obstacle data--and doing interior construction and finishing work on her house. Back-ordered materials had piled up. Flicker used power tools mainly for precision and delicacy; she had custom hand tools for speed and power, and boxes of regular hammers and screwdrivers to replace the ones she wore out or broke. Superspeed and robotic help let her make rapid progress in the half days she was putting in to it. Common areas and guest rooms were finished, and recreation areas, a wider variety of workshops, and Database node expansion rooms were all taking shape. Making time to talk and eat with friends wasn't sophisticated advice, but it was obviously helpful. She'd had dinner with Jetgirl and her husband yesterday. Good food, carefully non-specific sympathy, then after dinner, 'girl talk' with Jetgirl. Which meant tech geekery--they spent a few hours discussing the instrumentation and results from Speedtest, and Jetgirl's suggestions for some issues Flicker had encountered expanding her robotics workshop. Reliable comfort. The aftereffects from the cybernetic interface withdrawal were finally mostly gone, and Flicker's metabolism and appetite seemed to be responding to her exercises. She was definitely putting on muscle faster than a human could. And she'd mentioned her problem to Stavros, the owner of her favorite Greek restaurant, he'd gotten a look on his face like he'd been personally called upon to save the world, and now she had enough takeout in her fridge to feed a starving pseudo-mythological extradimensional being for a week. Today, a visit with Armadillo. She had promised something interesting. Flicker had once asked Armadillo why she hadn't picked the name Glyptodon instead, because that seemed closer in size and fearsomeness to her appearance. Armadillo had laughed and said she'd never heard of them at the time--the late 40s. The two of them were at Armadillo's house, sitting at a table with an impressive feast. It was not unusual for Armadillo; with super strength, near invulnerability, and half a ton of mass, she ate a lot, and saw no reason not to enjoy it. Armadillo was cheerful and a good friend, as well as effectively family. And at an age of 98, she knew a lot of history, especially the kinds that didn't usually get recorded very well. The main reason Flicker didn't visit more often was an embarrassing one: When she'd been younger she'd had episodes of severe insomnia. But Armadilo knew how to spin a story to help. So when the biological part of Flicker's brain was working, it associated Armadillo's stories strongly with drowsiness. Which didn't mean they were boring. Armadillo was sharing some anecdotes from the late Pre-Net era--the 50s through the 70s--when Luce Cannon, Belle Tinker, and One-eyed Jack had been prominent superheroes. They had set precedents that ended up shaping the way the Database had been assembled. The norms Luce had established as a practical way of preserving relationship privacy and security without centralized infrastructure required narrative indirection and implication in order to discuss certain subjects at all. Armadillo was very good at the style needed. Unfortunately, that and the lack of unrestricted Database references hindered the usual ways Flicker updated her memories, so she was having trouble with details. But there were definitely differences from the way she'd thought about the origins of the Database. "Huh," she said. "I always assumed that Doc decided everything important when he first built the Database, and the rest was just legacy format and historical records." "Not entirely," said Armadillo. "Luce knew all about records and careful access--she built her own intelligence operation, after all--and Belle was already starting to convert some of them to electronic form and building early bots in the fifties. But reliability for anyone but Belle was always a problem, and she didn't have the level of conscientiousness about documentation that Doc did." "Um. Doc isn't always that great about documentation. He gets--" "The Database AI or someone else to do a lot of it. I know. But someone does. Heck, I've done my share. Belle was way ahead of her time, but we never found anything but cryptic notebook scribbles for some of her weirder stuff. Left a bit of a mess after she was gone. Doc brought in organization, documentation, robustness, and speed, and then extended it to everything. But the first Database grew out of what he built for Luce not long before she died. And Luce set some access conditions, which Doc won't change without a good reason. So don't blame Doc for all of them." "So the age restrictions are from Luce?" "Some of them, yeah--but they aren't hardcoded, they're more flexible; we knew they'd have to accommodate aliens and extradimensional beings and whatnot. It's really a maturity threshold." Armadillo smiled. "But I have a treat for you." "Oh?" "There are a few things I have personal discretion about. And you've hit a block involving one of them twice now. It's a good example of how we handled a few things back in the day, and might help you understand some of the ambiguity. I can show it to you, but you'll have to put your visor on locked standby or take it off--no unrestricted electronic images of this are allowed." Flicker frowned, but arranged a protocol with the Database and pulled back her hood. Armadillo pushed back a plate, picked up a small case, opened it, and pulled out a large photographic print. "This is a copy of the last known good photograph of Belle Tinker. The original is in my family photo album in one of Doc's vaults." Flicker moved her chair closer to get a better look. It was a group photo, centered on a younger Armadillo. "What's that blacked out area?" "Non-superheroes with living relatives. The photo is from my 60th birthday party in 1974." Given the date, Flicker wasn't surprised that Armadillo was a bit narrower--she'd still been slowly adding mass. But... "Head spikes?" Armadillo laughed. "Yeah, that was my last try at regrowing them. I'd been on a trip to Tokyo the previous year, and there was a translator around during a Kaiju attack. I ended up stopping it by talking to the big fellow about the relative effectiveness of head spikes for challenge bellowing. We had a nice talk, and everyone went home happy. No property damage, even. So I decided to give them another try. But mine were only a little stronger than steel, so they kept breaking off--same kind of problem you have with your hair. I finally gave up in 75? Or maybe 76? But really, I'm the least interesting person in that photo. I'm curious what you think about the others." "Okay," said Flicker. "But that goblet you're drinking out of... Is that a demon skull?" "Yep. The goblet was a birthday present. It would have been rude not to try it out." Armadillo nodded towards a nearby cabinet. "I still have it, but I hardly ever use it anymore. Little call for it, and it's tricky to clean." "Um, okay." Flicker studied the image of the woman with red hair, a lab coat, safety glasses, and an expression of indulgent patience. "Belle has the same kind of 'I could be in my lab working on something cool' face I've seen Doc make. Most of the contemporary sources I found in the Database were really bad at describing her. She'd have been, what, in her late forties? She looks younger than that, fit, and tough, I don't understand what was going on." Armadillo smiled. "There were a few that treated her reasonably--but they tended not to emphasize appearance. Belle did not fit any 'feminine' stereotype back then, there were a number of media bigwigs who really didn't like her, and she didn't humor patronizing reporters. So it was common for them to distort or belittle her intelligence and accomplishments, insult her appearance, attack her character, or just use bad pictures. If they had to write about her at all. That's one reason why the quality of much of what you found about her is poor." Another woman with short dark hair was leaning against the table with a relaxed smile, but a very clear presence. "Did Luce Cannon always look like she was in charge?" asked Flicker. "I mean, it was your party, but..." "She could hide it, but she was keeping an eye on someone who could get overenthusiastic." A girl wearing a black outfit was smiling intently at the camera with a predatory look. She appeared to be around eleven; it was hard for Flicker to judge ages. "Is that a toy sword?" asked Flicker. "It looks awfully realistic." "Nope. That was Katya's first magic sword. She outgrew it; it's in the vaults now." "Magic sword? Wait... Katya? That's Jumping Spider?" "Oh, goodness no; she wouldn't use that name for years. That's Katya the... Hunter, I think? She switched from the Devastator sometime around then. This was only a year after Luce started teaching her." "Did... What... Why is she waving a sword around at your birthday party?" "It was a compromise; she wanted to make a little pyramid out of the other skulls for the picture, but Luce vetoed that as unsanitary. Just as well; Belle said they smelled pretty manky." "Other skulls?" Every time Flicker got a question answered, she immediately had several more--and she couldn't speed up and check the Database because her visor was off. "Besides the one Jack and Belle turned into the goblet for my birthday present. It was Katya's idea, so she got to hunt the demons, and she went a little overboard getting spare skulls. Jack took her to the dimension where they lived--nasty place, but they were immune to poison, which was handy." "...it's a magic goblet." "Oh, yeah, it detoxifies anything in it," said Armadillo. "If I ever want to be absolutely sure I can't be poisoned or I'm worried about contamination, I use it. But it's usually overkill, it makes most non-alcoholic beverages taste kind of funny, and properly cleaning the precipitate chamber is a pain." "Doc never let me hunt demons when I was ten," muttered Flicker as she studied the figure standing next to Belle in the photo. "Mores change, and your adoption process wasn't complete yet. It would have been awkward to explain." "Did One-eyed Jack ever show any sign of aging? It doesn't look like his appearance changed at all in pictures." "Nope," said Armadillo. "At least not from when I first met him in '50 or so until he disappeared in the nineties. White hair, neatly trimmed beard, and the eyepatch. He almost always wore that hooded robe and carried that staff with the magical doodad on the end. Occasionally he'd switch to a really old style suit and a dress cane--he could do an impressive Offended Aristocrat act. But his apparent age never changed. I suspect he was some kind of shapeshifter, and I know he could create illusions, though, so I'm not sure anyone really knows for sure." "Wait. Disappeared? The Database lists him as 'presumed dead' with supporting evidence; someone found his eyepatch and a scrap of robe near a small crater in the Topaz Realm and Doc verified they were genuine." "Yep. Doesn't mean he died. He might have just decided it was time to stop being Jack. Hard to believe someone as careful as him would botch a portal like that, and it seemed awfully pat that it happened somewhere with enough ravenous scavengers to ensure the lack of remains wasn't suspicious. If he was a shapeshifter, there could be someone with his memories who looks quite different running around somewhere. And he had a saying: 'Sometimes you see something coming and all you can do is get out of the way.' I think that's what he did." Armadillo grinned. "But then, I've been accused of being sentimental from time to time." "Okay," said Flicker. "If you're suspicious about Jack, what about Belle? She was declared dead, but all the Database says is that something catastrophic happened to her portal generator late at night and she was gone afterwards. Jack is recorded as testifying that as far as he could tell, she hadn't been murdered or kidnapped, definitely wasn't alive on Earth, and he wasn't able to tell quite what happened with the portal. But Doc said that if she really wanted to burn her bridges, she could have set the portal generator to self destruct, then gone through to somewhere before it blew. He still has the remains of it in the vaults." Armadillo looked out the window. "All true. She seemed kind of withdrawn for a while before that. Well, withdrawn for her--she was always full of more ideas than she had time to try. She'd had a disagreement with Luce and the Volunteer for a couple of years over... I guess you could call it public policy. She made some predictions that turned out to be pretty accurate, and the first part of one of them had just happened--that was '80. It's conceivable she might have just been tired of Earth. But then she was kind of close to Jack, and he was pretty down afterwards--and if she went somewhere else, I don't know why he wouldn't be able to visit. I tried talking to him about it once, and he just shook his head. So I really can't say." "Were they a couple?" asked Flicker. "Database is ambiguous--they at least pretended a few times, but it wasn't clear what was going on. I assume it's okay to ask about that now that they're both gone?" "Heh. It's not forbidden to ask, and they worked well together in the lab when Belle wasn't out causing trouble with Luce. I'll say this; Belle never showed interest in most men--she'd roll her eyes at most of my jokes--and Jack never showed any interest in anyone but Belle. But it could just have been cover; a convenience for both of them." "Oh." Flicker frowned at the last figure--a middle-aged man in nondescript clothing, leaning back in the chair beside Armadillo. His glasses were perched precariously on the end of his nose, his fingers were laced over his chest, and his eyes were closed. "Who is the guy beside you, and why is he asleep?" Armadillo smiled. "Oh, he'd had a long day, then a nice meal, so he just was catching a little nap. He sometimes answered to the name of Chandler Devon." Okay, now I know I'm being tested. Flicker sped up. The name was vaguely familiar--why? She glanced at Luce again, then remembered. Chandler Devon was connected to Luce Cannon in some way, perhaps one of her agents, or possibly romantically linked--but that had been a shaky source. Documentation about him had been really spotty, with large gaps. He'd been a skilled enough amateur geologist to get a few articles published, later in life. But his fondness for volcanoes had apparently done him in--he'd disappeared during the Mount Pinatubo eruption a few years after Luce's death. That made the third nominally dead person in the picture with a missing body. The only person who was definitely dead and buried was Luce--she'd died of cancer in the late 80s. There were several odd things that required explanation about 'Chandler Devon'. Why was he even at Armadillo's party? Had Luce brought him? Why hadn't anyone woken him up for the picture? It was a memorable occasion. Was it a prank? Wait. Armadillo had said she was the least interesting person in the photo. What could possible make him more interesting than her? If he-- Oh. So that's what he looks like when he's asleep. But how did he manage... Luce. Of course. She was the original super spy. Jumping Spider's teacher. If anyone could cover everything he'd need, it would have been her. That explained so much. He'd gone more than fifty years without anyone-- Idiot. Everyone in that picture probably knew. He'd always had a family. A family of choice. They just never, ever gave it away. Even when they disagreed with each other. But still, a few years after Luce died, he decided it was time to stop being Chandler Devon. Could he still maintain cover? Probably; Jumping Spider was 27 by then, and Doc was 17, with the Database up and running. But the Lost Years were about to start, and Doc had seen that coming. No longer worth the trouble, maybe? How much had Luce meant to Chandler Devon? A lot to think about, most of it not even about Belle. But there was etiquette to be observed. And as far as Flicker could tell, it was to indicate obliquely that she'd guessed, but not say anything unambiguous. She could come up with something. She slowed back down--and found herself blinking back tears. "He looks like... someone who works very hard," she managed. "And doesn't get a chance to relax very often. I'm glad no one woke him up." Armadillo nodded slowly. "So was I." She started to put the picture back in the box. "Wait," said Flicker. "Who took the picture? I thought I knew, but now I think I was wrong." Armadillo paused. "Another time, maybe. You probably have enough to cogitate about today already." "Yeah. Yeah, I do."

Next: Part 13

#FallofDocFuture #FallMisc

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untitledtallgeesepodcast · 4 years

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[TRANSCRIPT] Episode 0: The Anime They Once Saw (Or Didn’t See)

Kat 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Untitled Tallgeese Podcast, a podcast where four of us will watch Gundam Wing and then tell you all about Gundam Wing. My name is Kat, I write about comics on the internet, and I will be your episode moderator for today.

Mallory 0:17

And I'm Mallory, and I also write about comics.

Cathy 0:20

I'm Cathy, I don't write about comics. I am actually a lawyer, which sucks.

All 0:26

[laughter]

Caitlin 0:28

I am Caitlin. I'm a PhD researcher in Tokyo right now working on Japanese film. Yeah.

Kat 0:33

Extremely legit.

Caitlin 0:35

Are we?

Cathy 0:36

and we're all here to talk about the Gundam Wing.

Kat 0:38

[crosstalk] I mean we might be.

Kat 0:41

We are here to talk about Gundam Wing, the maybe not critically acclaimed, but fandom, okay, audience favorite anime that was released in 1995 in Japan and then made its way to the US in March 2000 on Toonami. So, we're going to talk about our fandom history and our history with the show Gundam Wing and I guess I will kick that off. So I-- I grew up watching anime because my dad is a huge nerd. So we were obviously watching Toonami. And the promos blew my mind. My friends and I all got really into it in middle school. Then we discovered fanfiction and we started with Heero/Relena fan fiction. [Caitlin: Ugh.] And then then we realized people could be gay.

Caitlin 1:29

Uugh, thank god.

Kat 1:30

That opened up like, I know it was like the clouds parted. rainbows fell from the sky. We were like, Oh, wow.

Mallory 1:39

[singing] "A whole new world"

Kat 1:40

[laughter] And then I don't know. I wrote a lot of fanfiction posted it on FF dotnet, got into fandom and then stayed in fandom. So, Mallory?

Mallory 1:53

I didn't have cable growing up. So whatever anime exposure I got was like, whatever was on Saturday morning cartoons. So Digimon was my first fandom and I was really into that.

Kat 2:08

Hell yeah

Mallory 2:09

And that sort of like bled into Gundam Wing somehow, I don't really remember how. But I found my way to Gundam Wing, read a lot of fanfic, hadn't ever really watched the show. And then in high school, my friend had some like random episodes from the first season question mark. I have no idea. So I watched those, and really enjoyed that? But I have no idea what their context was, so I'm coming at this pretty, pretty new.

Cathy 2:44

So you have never watched it from beginning to end?

Mallory 2:47

No.

Cathy 2:47

Got it. This will be fun.

Mallory 2:50

I'm expecting to be really disapproving of all the adults in the room. I find that like, now that I'm watching anime about kids, I'm really protective of these kids like, "Hey, this is really unethical!"

Cathy 3:02

So I'm like Kat, I started watching anime when I was I think around Middle School. I had a friend who got me into Sailor Moon, then I think it was Dragon Ball that was on Toonami at the time? I can't really remember the chronology.

Kat 3:16

Yeah.

Cathy 3:17

But then they did the promos for Gundam Wing, so then I started watching that on Toonami. And it was my first mecha series. And my first Gundam series, I think it's a lot of people's first Gundam series in the United States.

Cathy 3:31

I have attempted to do similar projects to this multiple times where I go back and I rewatch, and I haven't really had the opportunity to actually finish those rewatches. But my memory of it is still kind of stuck of when I was in middle school slash high school. I did get into fandom, so I expect to remember a lot of inaccuracies about what happened. [laughter] Because a lot of what my facts have with this series are have now mutated and changed. But I was a huge Gundam Wing fan, I think it still remains my favorite of the Gundam series just because I have so many memories of it? But I really excited to talk to Mallory, about what you feel and your experiences because it's been so long since I've talked to somebody who actually has never seen the series and doesn't know the story. So I'm super excited about this.

Caitlin 4:24

Yeah!

Cathy 4:25

All right, Cait, tell us about your family history.

Caitlin 4:27

Yeah, so similar to all of us, I guess, I watched anime growing up. I got into Sailor Moon sort of through an accident of just happening to see a very specific episode on Toonami in like 1999, 1998 maybe. So after that, I got really into anime and really into the internet. I think I was very depressed as a child. [laughter] So I spend a lot of time online. I believe that like my my first memories of Gundam Wing are when it was on Toonami: Sailor Moon was on first and then Dragon Ball Dragon Ball Z, and then Gundam Wing. And then they also were showing like the quote unquote unedited versions late

Cathy 5:09

Yes!

Kat 5:09

Yes, the midnight run

Cathy 5:11

The midnight run Right.

Cathy 5:12

Yeah. So very specific memories of like, I think I was mainly attracted to the, like, team format of Gundam if that makes sense? [Cathy: Yeah yeah yeah!] where it was used to sailor Sailor Moon where you have a team of color coded characters. And I'd, at a younger age been really into Power Rangers, where you had a team of color coded characters. So the marketing of Gundam Wing really appealed. You know, cuz I was just a kid watching on TV, I never really, I don't know if I watched the whole thing as a kid, but I got really into the fandom. And by 2000, 2001, I already knew about gay stuff online.

Kat 5:48

Wow. Look at you early bloomer.

Caitlin 5:50

Yeah. So So I got really into the various Gundam Wing pairings, I think it was mainly, I was mainly a 3x4, I think as a child. I went through some, 1x2, and then 2x5 phases. [laughter]

Caitlin 6:09

I still am a big advocate for 2x5, I think it's underrated.

Kat 6:12

I'm a big 2x5.

Cathy 6:13

2x5 is a good pairing, it definitely is.

Kat 6:16

Yeah.

Cathy 6:16

It's a better pairing as an adult.

Kat 6:17

So okay, I think that's actually a pretty good bounce off. So these are the things we remember about Gundam Wing. It was marketed, like, I remember the Toonami marketing 'cause I was really hype for this show. They had like these really extreme commercials.

Caitlin 6:34

Yeah.

Kat 6:35

Um, and I thought the voice acting was good. I don't know, maybe we'll revisit that during this watch, to see if it still is,

Caitlin 6:43

[crosstalk] Was it dubbed?,

Cathy 6:44

[crosstalk] It was dubbed, yes.

Kat 6:44

But I was ready for it. It was dubbed.

Caitlin 6:46

It was dubbed. One thing with the with the Japanese voice acting though, is that it's every single famous voice actor from the 90s. And so you can, you can use Gundam Wing is like a six degrees of every single voice actor from the 1990s.

Caitlin 6:59

Oh, that's cool.

Mallory 7:00

I mean, there are a lot of big American or like, dub dub names on the dub side, too.

Cathy 7:06

One of the things that I remember very strongly about Toonami is that they had what I think we would now call anime music videos, AMVs.

Kat 7:16

Yeah

Cathy 7:17

But they would play

Caitlin 7:18

Yeah,

Cathy 7:18

These montage trailers, where they'd stich together all their different series. And as they accumulated more anime series, these became really, I think, cinematic and gripping tales, where they would kind of try to tell a story to be about, like bravery or honor or like,

Kat 7:36

It's like, plugged directly into my little 11 year old brain like, Whoa,

Cathy 7:40

Yes. And one of them was, I remember was called, like, "technological development" or something like that, that featured a lot of the Gundam Wing clips.

Kat 7:47

Oh, yeah, cuz you only download them from like, KaZaa, or whatever horrible thing I was putting into my computer.

Caitlin 7:52

Yeah. We gotta see if we can find those. [crosstalk] They must be online somewhere.

Cathy 7:56

They are online. And I think they actually came out with like, I think somebody had either like hand by hand remastered them.

Kat 8:03

[crosstalk] Oh sick.

Cathy 8:02

Or they created a remastered version of it. They're wonderful. But that's I think one of the things about Toonami that I remember really strongly was Gundam Wing kind of is one of their, like epitome of like, Cool Anime that I feel like Toonami did and what it did was like they stiched together all these different things Outlaw Star and Tenchi Muyo and all these other stories to create a story about teenage growth, which is kind of strange and also weirdly fitting at the end of the day about like where Gundam is in the whole universe.

Kat 8:07

I think that's one of the reasons it blew up so much here because the marketing was really intense. Like Toonami, like it sort of right at the beginning, like people were into Sailor Moon, Dragonball Z was getting big. And like the manga boom was sort of happening in bookstores. So contextually, I think, Cartoon Network knew what the hell they were doing. They were like, "We can market the hell out of this."

Caitlin 8:55

And also objectively speaking, Gundam Wing was one of their cooler series. Like, Sailor Moon is cool. Tenchi Muyo is not cool.

All 9:04

[laughter]

Kat 9:06

Yeah.

Caitlin 9:07

Even even if you love it, it's not really cool. Dragon Ball. Love it. I don't know if it's really cool. Gundam Wing had like a very strong -

Kat 9:14

[crosstalk] like the chad of animes

Caitlin 9:16

- adult aesthetic to it, even though it was like, relatively, well, relatively appropriate for like 12 year olds.

Kat 9:23

And they swore during the midnight show.

Caitlin 9:25

Oh yeah,

Kat 9:26

They swore and there was blood.

Caitlin 9:27

So it was very cool. And so I felt very adult watching it even though I didn't really understand what was going on because it's all this fake politics crap.

Kat 9:35

Yeah, I was gonna say I did do a rewatch in like, like, right after college, so it was probably around 2010 ish, maybe? And I don't think we finished the series, but it was like, wow, I used to think this was very deep. [laughter] And I thought all the people in it who are the adults like Mallory, you were mentioning earlier, like they're actually like 17 and 19

Cathy 10:01

Yes!

Kat 10:01

in this show. So watching it at the age of 21, I was like, "Ooh no, don't give these people anything."

Cathy 10:09

I was actually thinking about that. Because when you said Mallory, "oh, well, I become very protective of the children. I disapprove the adults," in my head of thinking "what adults?" [crosstalk, Caitlin: yeah what adults?] because actually, in Gundam Wing, there's a funny thing where people are either 15, 25 or like 70. And there's no in between and nobody really makes adult decisions. So it, That was one thing that really shocked me because as I go back to revisit it, I think, "Oh my god, I'm actually older than almost everybody in this series."

Caitlin 10:39

How old, how old is Treize supposed to be?

Cathy 10:41

He's like 23, or 24.

Kat 10:42

He's 19.

Cathy 10:43

No, Zechs is 19.

Kat 10:44

Oh, Zechs is 19. Right.

Cathy 10:47

I just the idea of giving people who, you know, would have either been in college or just graduate college in my worldview, huge robots.

Kat 10:58

I think the ages of all the characters gets obscured by the anime art style, you know?

Cathy 11:03

Yeah.

Kat 11:03

In a lot of anime fandoms.

Mallory 11:04

And when you're watching this, when you're a kid, you want to see yourself as the protagonist. So it makes sense that, you know, a 17 year old seems like old and cool, and I want to be that person. And then when you're 30, you're like, the 17 year old should not be at war.

Kat 11:23

Relevant is that we definitely watched Evangelion. That was our last series.

Caitlin 11:29

I don't know, I think, I think Heero Yuy is doing fine in war. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be honest, as a 30 year old, I think these kids are much better at war than I would be.

Cathy 11:39

Well, so that's what I find kind of interesting, is that I think this series actually... I don't, I know this wasn't the point but when I rewatched it recently, or just like the first couple of episodes, it seemed, it made a lot of sense, because they were like 15 or 24. Like the series, actually stitches together...

Caitlin 11:58

Yeah.

Cathy 11:58

...really well, because of how young they are, and kind of like the purity of feeling that they have, which I think is

Kat 12:05

Yeah, it is, like

Cathy 12:06

only maybe

Kat 12:07

like that [indistinguishable?]

Cathy 12:07

which I think is like only really, truly possible because I have to think of them as like 15 or 21 or 19 year olds. that is not at all when I took away when I was watching in high school. Right?

Mallory 12:21

Well, I mean, right.

Caitlin 12:22

Part of the ideology of Gundam in general is like trying to restore a form of hope, and youth to, like, young people growing up in Japan, who are the target audience for this, and this idea that, like, you still have the power to change the world, you still have the power to bring about peace in a way that you want, even though you're being manipulated and oppressed by all these crazy adults who make you pilot giant robots. So I think there's a significant, like part of the series is the fact that they are kids who have been recruited into child warfare, and now have to find some way out of that. And like my memory of the series is that even though most of, most of the decisions made are very bad, the kids in general are not making terrible decisions. They're making pretty good decisions.

Kat 13:12

Yeah, the pilots themselves...

Mallory 13:14

[crosstalk] Yeah

Kat 13:14

...are like doing the best they can be doing in that circumstance.

Cathy 13:17

[crosstalk] Exactly, exactly

Kat 13:19

But I think it's sort of interesting, 'cause it's like, to me Gundam Wing is definitely like a fandom era, because I think a lot of stuff exemplifies like...there's like a lot of tropes cycling through it. But also like, the series itself, is so perfectly...like, I think of it as a series that are so perfectly set up for fandom because there's a lot of like, here's my one episode mission, and we have to be at a safe house, I guess. And it's just like, a long interminable war. So there's like, a big, a lot of world building. Yeah, that creates all these spaces that sort of separate from all the political machinations of the series.

Caitlin 13:58

And that's also I think, a lot of what it was meant to be when it was created within the Gundam franchise like it was it was designed to have sort of a BL appeal to girls writing for comic market and that sort of thing. So it had like the setup of five hot guys who you could combine in various forms. And then also like Gundam itself, in general, it's designed to be and a sort of open universe that you can step into at various points, which also facilitates fandom engagement

Mallory 14:28

[crosstalk] literal fandom bait.

Caitlin 14:29

usually in the form, yeah, usually in the form of model collecting, which is like one of the main Gundam forms of fandom which we probably won't talk about too much on the show. But you, you kind of

Kat 14:41

Uh I've definitely built some Gundam models.

Caitlin 14:43

Yeah. Well, you will be the expert on that because I've never touched a Gundam model in my life. But that is like the big thing where you can you can get the model you can construct it, you can learn a little bit more about the, like, the technology and the different like details of the models and stuff like that. And it just gives you like a slight, like Little bit more of these like tiny narratives and that sort of what the fans are consuming rather than an overall plot that makes sense, which is not what Gundam has really.

Kat 15:11

So Gundam [Wing] has like the cool robots but also these hot boys in them.

Caitlin 15:15

That's what I want.

Mallory 15:16

I mean Well, that's exactly what I want to show right now. So it sounds perfect?

Kat 15:21

Honestly, yeah.

Mallory 15:23

I think Evangelion, sort of, because, Kat, you and I just finished -- or are almost finished with -- Neon Genesis Evangelion [Kat, crosstalk: we haven't done all the movies yet] which was also it was my first time [Cathy, crosstalk: Congratulations, laugh] watching the whole series...wow, grim

Kat 15:40

I also only consumed

Mallory 15:42

[crosstalk] grim

Kat 15:42

[crosstalk] I consumed it like piecemeal too

Mallory 15:44

And depressing

Kat 15:45

It was great.

Mallory 15:46

Very good but um grim.

Kat 15:50

Yeah it's pretty grim.

Cathy 15:52

Yeah, it's interesting to me because I feel like Evangelion doesn't make a lot of sense as a cultural product unless you've consumed a series like Gundam or its ancestors before watching it and yet Evangelion is a lot of people's introduction to giant robot series. So I always find that kind of interesting...

Caitlin 16:13

[crosstalk] It's very weird.

Cathy 16:14

because it, it is subversive, and I think it's subversive even if you don't know the tropes of the giant robot series, of which Gundam is perhaps a prime example. Gundam Wing...

Kat 16:27

So I was gonna ask that and like, would you say, since Evangelion is definitely a like the subversion of this genre, would you say Gundam Wing is like the type of series that it is subverting? Or do you think it's in a different place?

Caitlin 16:41

Gundam Wing and Evangelion came out the same year? Gundam Wing is in some ways a, it's already like a parody form of the original iteration of Gundam.

Kat 16:55

Okay, so it's--is it like, um, like the pure essence of teens-robots.

Caitlin 17:02

It's, it's more like, I feel like by the time of Gundam Wing, the tropes of the original Gundam series are so well set that a lot of things in Gundam Wing to, like the fans who watched the original Gundam or like later Gundams, seemed like a rehash but it was designed to bring in new fans. So something like Zechs Merquis is very clearly like a Char Aznable character. It's just sort of a reiteration of that.

Kat 17:29

So is it like a Star Wars, like a Star Wars sequel?

Caitlin 17:33

Like how the Force Awakens is kind of a rehash of yeah, of A New Hope. And then, but it still brings in a lot of fans and has appealing characters and good aesthetics

Kat 17:43

Right, yeah, I guess I think of them, the two shows, as sort of like, splitting the take on... like, what would you say is like the ur-mecha show?

Cathy 17:52

The original Gundam

Caitlin 17:54

Original Gundam?

Cathy 17:54

Yeah, Mobile Suit Gundam.

Caitlin 17:56

I mean, they're, they're older iterations, there's other robot shows. But I feel like when people think of mecha, the first thing they think of is Mobile Suit Gundam.

Cathy 18:06

So the way like I now think of Gundam Wing after the fact of experiences I have now is that like Gundam Wing is actually a perfect like K-Pop boy band way that they built it and so if you can kind of think of it like that, like it's, you need enough of the tropes and symbols, so that everybody watches it and immediately knows it's a Gundam series.

Cathy 18:30

Like the colors of Wing Gundam are so obviously

Kat 18:34

Yeah.

Cathy 18:34

a Gundam Mecca and you need that you can't get away from it. And same thing with like Zech's having a mask it the reason I think of it as being in in the Kpop industry is like there's a derivative sense. And that's animated by both like Merchandising, and advertising and what audiences want but at the same time, it's like this incredibly pure understanding of what makes us like things? And like when you get that when you really get it, like, it doesn't matter how like, quote, unquote manipulative or exploitative it can seem like you love it. And that's enough, right to make it like a thing that we all want to keep coming back to.

Mallory 19:12

And there's basically like, an archetype right? In all of the different characters like you have the more

Kat 19:18

Yeah, you have the serious one.

Mallory 19:20

That's what I was thinking.

Kat 19:21

Like, the goofy one.

Mallory 19:23

Yeah, the goofy one, the sort of mess

Kat 19:25

the ugly one,

Mallory 19:26

like really cute one.

Kat 19:29

Yeah, that's why I was thinking American boy bands cuz they all have to have like a type of heartthrob. Yeah, I'm a bad boy. I love death.

Caitlin 19:38

One of them's, one of them's a rapper.

Kat 19:40

Okay, so we talked a little bit about how we got into it. We talked a little bit about fandoms. And we touched on pairings, do we want to go into pairings at all? Or like our fave characters, or who we think our fave characters will be Before this rewatch?

Cathy 19:54

You know before we do that--Mallory, can you try to tell us what you think this series is about? I'm actually really curious, like before you do a complete viewing, like what? what is what is your understanding of what happens in Gundam Wing?

Mallory 20:08

Um, there's a long interminable war. These boys are recruited by some shadowy government whatever. And they're piloting these mecha. Uugh, I just remember Duo being really annoying.

Caitlin 20:28

[loud gasp] [laughter] [crosstalk] Oh my god.

Mallory 20:29

I mean, not annoying, like, being sort of...

Kat 20:32

Wow.

Mallory 20:33

...the one the pushy one like, he's the challenging one to Heero's "I'm serious and dour." Literally, I have the most broad strokes impressions of what this show is. I just know it looked really fucking cool every time I saw it in, like, a commercial and couldn't watch it.

Cathy 20:55

Fascinating.

Caitlin 20:57

Honestly, even having seen Gundam Wing, I'm not sure I could explain it much better. I don't remember who recruited them.

Mallory 21:03

Okay. Okay, that does make me feel better. Because I was like, Oh, I don't? Do I actually know what the show is? What am I getting myself into?

Caitlin 21:14

There's there's a lot of weird politics.

Mallory 21:17

Well, I'm really excited for that. And I don't mean that sarcastically. Like, I'm really excited to, to see what this world is like, because I remember, like images or impressions. But everything is like out of context. So it'll be cool to see what that context is. Like deja vu? Oh, I remember that. I've seen that in AMV.

Kat 21:48

I remember this from fics that just rewrite scenes from this show.

Mallory 21:55

Yeah, like, what do I know? What do I know of Gundam that is from fanfic only, or is actual canon? I'm curious to figure out.

Kat 22:10

I think everyone's a lot less obnoxious in canon.

Caitlin 22:14

That's true.

Mallory 22:15

Okay, okay.

Caitlin 22:16

This was a this was a really good fandom for the the fandom phenomenon of, you take a character's most, like, annoying trait, and you emphasize it like times 10 in your fanfic.

Cathy 22:28

Yes.

Kat 22:28

Yeah

Caitlin 22:28

Just so everybody knows you know what that character is like.

Kat 22:31

Heero's gonna threaten to kill everybody all the time, constantly.

Caitlin 22:34

"Omae o korosu."

Cathy 22:36

[laughing crosstalk] And so, it's funny that you guys mentioned safe houses, because actually, there are very few safe houses in the original series. In fact, I think there's like maybe one or two scenes ever, where they are all in a safe house provided by one of their allies. And it's a really fascinating trope, because it like pervades the fanfic? But I remember, that I remember was like a big deal, like, I went back and I was like, actually, these people spend very little downtime with each other in the actual series and I find that fascinating.

Kat 23:12

Right? So you have to fill it all in.

Mallory 23:13

Oh, wait, what?

Caitlin 23:14

They actually barely know each other.

Cathy 23:16

Yeah, they truly barely know each other. [crosstalk]

Mallory 23:18

Wait. Oh no, I thought, I thought this was going to be like..

Kat 23:23

[crosstalk] They actually never interact.

Mallory 23:24

we're going to get together and become like a team

Caitlin 23:26

No, no.

Cathy 23:26

Absolutely not,

Caitlin 23:27

They don't fight together; It's 50 episodes of them not interacting.

Cathy 23:31

They, they literally have like, they like, there's probably one or two scenes in which all five of them are on the same battlefield at the same time. And almost every single one of those scenes involves them fighting with each other because like,

Kat 23:44

[crosstalk]Oh, yeah, they fight each other alone.

Cathy 23:45

What's going on? And this was the thing that I'm sure we'll come back to when I came back to this is when I was rewatching. It in college, I realized that of the two people who spend the most time with each other, it's like Trowa and Heero. Because, yes, it is what arc where they actually go on a road trip, which like,

Kat 24:03

it's great. I wrote a thing

Cathy 24:04

like wiped it from my memory when I was thinking about the series, but it really drives home. You know, again, to your point like what of this series do I did I remember that was just from fanfic, and was just what like the fanfic I read very specifically. And so that was one of the things is like, when you come back as an adult, I was like, all of this stuff is so much more interesting to me because like, I actually, like, I don't get me wrong, I still have shipping opinions. But like, I'm older and I have I I'm famous for this. And Kat knows this. I like don't have OTPs. And I'm like not very good about actually being very loyal to pairings. And so as an adult coming back to this, I was like, Oh, this is actually really interesting because the permutations that fandom came up with also came from, like, non-canon material, because there's a lot of non-canon material, like promotional images that bear no resemblance whatsoever to canon.

Kat 24:54

Okay, I would, I would call those extra canonical, right?

Caitlin 24:58

No, they're, they're extra canonical, they count in some form.

Kat 25:02

Right? 'Cause they're official.

Cathy 25:04

I guess so. I mean, sure, we'll talk about that as time comes but like.

Caitlin 25:08

Listen, a canon is not just the story. It's the entire media mix around it. It's those, it's those things that you can collect. It's the extra manga. It's Frozen Teardrop,

Cathy 25:18

Like, Gundam Wing actually, I think is one of the few franchises I know where like "pair the spares" was a real merchandising tactic.

Kat 25:26

Yes, it was.

Cathy 25:27

And so, so everybody had somebody... gay, I mean, like, not like,

Kat 25:34

Wufei had two!

Cathy 25:35

They had a gay and a straight interest that they were paired up with. And so, um, so it's like, fascinating to me to come back and be like, actually, the canon is a lot more flexible and interesting than I remembered it.

Caitlin 25:49

The canon for me is like, remarkable in its commitment to not officially putting anyone together. Like it was, it's very good at balancing out all of the different pairings that it wants to support.

Mallory 26:01

Mm hmm.

Caitlin 26:02

Um, it's interesting to see which ones got picked up as the main two in fandom, which for me, were always 1x2 and 3x4 dominated the fandom, because they're both like, friendly, maybe talkative, personable guy and like silent, brooding, weirdo,

Kat 26:22

Warrior.

Caitlin 26:22

What fandom loves! Fandom loves that exact dynamic in every form. And so like, what 1, 1 and 3, were never going to work together because they're both silent and brooding. Fandom was never gonna pick that up. It's too It's too boring. It's not dynamic enough, right?

Mallory 26:37

Like, you can't fight. There's no banter,

Cathy 26:39

Which is actually weird, because if you go back and watch the episodes, you'll see it. Heero actually is not that quiet. And Trowa is like a nutcase. And so

Kat 26:48

they're really funny together,

Cathy 26:49

when they are together, they're actually incredibly dynamic in ways that in fact, the canon doesn't establish 1x2, or 3x4 to be. And so it is really fascinating, because I do agree with Caitlin. What came out of this canon is very different from what I think the show gives. And I don't know the show was like, open minded because it wanted to sell as much merch as possible or

Caitlin 27:13

It's that.

Cathy 27:13

Yeah, so I don't know.

Mallory 27:14

Capitalism.

Kat 27:16

I am gonna say I think the show is a 3x4 shipper. Like I think if the show had a pairing, it would be a three, it would be 3x4, like from my recollections of the show

Mallory 27:26

Yeah

Caitlin 27:26

I always thought that was true. But now

Cathy 27:28

I disagree.

Caitlin 27:29

I feel like I'm gonna go into this and and be like, they never

Kat 27:32

Nobody else has a musical interlude.

Cathy 27:34

But the but the thing is, here's Okay, so not to, like, make this too much about the pairing... But I also think 1x2 and 3x4 become established. I put that in quotes early in the series. And so it becomes entrenched and people assume that that's the pairing. But actually, I just remember so strongly when I went back and rewatched that I was like, there really is not that much evidence for Trowa and Quatre's like instantaneous connection because Quatre has that with almost every other pilot, and Trowa's relationship with Heero is like so much more interesting when I come back to it, even though I definitely think they would never work. They would like killing each other and instead as an adult.

Kat 28:12

And I mean, I love that pairing. And like the one thing that came out of my rewatch a million years ago was I wrote a 1x3 fic cuz I really love those episodes, and fandom didn't do anything with it. But I feel like, I feel like Quatre and Trowa are framed slightly differently than all the other potential pairings so that they could be together.

Cathy 28:33

Even up until Endless Waltz like, I really just feel like that that was an early series thing. And then as you go on into the series, that relationship while still important, was not really emphasized any more or less.

Kat 28:47

But I mean, if it, if it comes out of the gate strong, [laughter] like

Caitlin 28:51

That's all that matters

Kat 28:52

I still think that the show was pushing that one if it pitched. Like if it was giving the most evidence to any one of them, I think the early stuff was really like, ~look at this beautiful pairing.~

Caitlin 29:04

So wait do we all want to, maybe to end this episode, we should all go through and predict what are OTP or pseudo OTP for Cathy will be by the end of this rewatch.

Kat 29:16

But also tell me your fave character because that's what I asked like, 15 minutes ago.

Cathy 29:21

Okay, Kat you first.

Kat 29:23

Oh, well, my favorite character has always been Duo Maxwell. And I'm predicting that he's still going to be my fave character. And I am going to stake my flag on Duo/Wufei, 2x5.

Cathy 29:36

Mallory?

Mallory 29:37

I think from what I remember, I really liked Trowa, I thought Heero was too dour, but I also think that I might relate to him a lot more this time around. So I'm going to say that Heero is going to be my favorite character. And I've always liked...see, I don't know about fandom pairings. I want to say it'll be...well it was Duo/Heero before? No, but I've-- I really like Duo/Wufei so, like, I think that's just always gonna be my Gundam Wing ship.

Cathy 30:20

So when I was a kid watching it my favorite was Duo Maxwell, but I know from my prior rewatching, or attempts to rewatch the series, that as an older person coming into the series, I actually like the girls a lot more, like Relena and Dorothy and Noin became my favorite characters and I did not give them the credit they deserved when I was watching it as a younger person.

Cathy 30:41

I also was 1x2 shipper but again, I know that what I came out of the series really shipping was disastrous Heero/Trowa, and then Duo/Wufei.

Caitlin 30:56

Okay, I see we are all Duo/Wufei fans now.

Kat 30:59

[crosstalk] That's why this is going to be the superior Gundam Wing podcast.

Caitlin 31:02

Yeah. I feel like so, my favorite character when I was originally watching as a kid was Quatre. I think probably because like I always liked like, the friendly blondes in boy bands?

Kat 31:13

That go apeshit?

Caitlin 31:15

When I got older, I was more into Duo and Duo is was probably still my favorite character. I was into Duo/Wufei for a long time. I just think that they are funny together and terrible. And I actually really like Wufei a lot. I sort of admire that fake honor sort of thing. But I, since everybody said Duo/Wufei, I feel like I should say something else, which is that I think that I will get more into 3x4 again after this rewatch, because it's a comforting pairing, in some ways. It's a return. And we're all very full of anxiety right now. [laughter] And so we just need Quatre and stupid, crazy Trowa, you know, having their pure love connection that fandom imagined for them from the beginning.

Kat 32:02

It's real.

Mallory 32:03

I look forward to it.

Cathy 32:04

I do too. I also look forward to hating Treize because that's what happened the last time I rewatched this. He's such a fuck boy.

Kat 32:12

I'm excited to love Dorothy and Relena.

Cathy 32:14

My god, they're so good. Yeah, they're so good. That's what I should have said is my favorite pairing.

Kat 32:20

Fandom definitely ruined me for a little bit, like, "urgh, Relena!"

Caitlin 32:24

When I was a kid, part of the appeal of Gundam Wing fandom was in some ways that it was so sexist, and so I could like act out my own internalized misogyny at the time. And so like, I like I was definitely participating in that of like a group breaking up the boys, whatever. And then in later iterations, I like love Relena. So.

Kat 32:45

Yeah, she was just such an easy reason for them to get together, right? For 1x2, but in the show, she's way more than a plot device. So that was kind of frustrating.

Caitlin 32:56

In the show, she's easily the most one of the most interesting and active characters for sure.

Kat 33:02

As podcast Daddy, I declare Episode Zero officially over. Thank you everyone for your time and catch us in two weeks with Episode One: The boy whose wings killed adolescence.

Caitlin 33:16

Byeeee [laughter]

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

#gundam wing #untitled tallgeese podcast #transcripts #mobile suit gundam wing #gundam #episode 00

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unordinary-analysis · 5 years

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Hey, I was just rereading, and, Elaine is a bad person?!? I don't think I'll be able to finish rereading, but was there any point where we started liking her? She literally called john gross for being powerless wth

Elaine: Is She a Bad Person and Why People Like Her

Know that I probably forgot all I wanted to say over the course of writing this so if it feels incomplete or off topic, i did my best lmao ok?

This is a hard topic to address because something being classified as inherently good or bad cannot be proven or measured. It’s all a matter of perspective, of where your morals, as the reader, lie. I don’t think anything that I’m going to say is going to strongly disagree with any of your ethics, but it’s good to know that going into this.

I decided to answer this question, yes, but also ask another. Along with asking if Elaine is a bad person, I also want to address why people like her character, because I know a lot of people do. People feel all different types of ways towards Elaine’s character and I want to explore why that’s the case.

Elaine, after reexamination, is actually one of the most morally intriguing characters to read. She’s still annoying as hell, but even when you hate what she’s saying, what she’s thinking, it really adds to your own perspective and makes you think.

I feel a lot of people that love her say that she’s one of the nicest and most caring characters in Unordinary. I’m sure a lot of people who don’t like her think this too. It’s easy to view Elaine as one of the nice, preppy girls.

But, like I said, after reexamination and a bit of rereading, I was reminded that her character isn’t so one dimensional. The UnOrdinary wikia (unordinary.fandom.com/wiki/Elaine) has a section labeled “personality” that is dedicated to describing Elaine’s personality. I think that the first two lines sum up Elaine very well: “Elaine seems to be one of the more friendly students at Wellston due to her outgoing and hospitable personality. However, like many students of Wellston, she's shown only enmity towards those with no abilities, and paid no attention to what lower tiers go through.” I say that this is true, but to an even more intense extent.

In what I think is the very first scene we meet Elaine (episode 7) she approaches John with kindness. She is friendly, smiles at him a lot, and welcomes him to Wellston. Then: she asks him about his power.

Instantly, the whole mood of the scene shifts. In previous panels, there were hearts and flowers drawn around Elaine. Then she asks, “So, John. What kind of ability do you have?” and suddenly this dark gloom wraps itself around the comic. Elaine is drawn with pointed eyebrows narrowed down her face. She is also sporting an impressive smirk for a character who most people classify as the naive, nice girl. The whole scene is so close from being taken straight out of mean girls it’s insane. Elaine is nice at first, but soon you realize she’s a predator.

So what really is Elaine’s true character?

Because Elaine’s true character has been somewhat elusive recently, I’ve laid out a nice list for you so you can easily see what traits of hers I will be proving and using to prove other points:

Elaine’s “good” moral traits:

Friendly

Caring

Kind

Thoughtful

Generally more aware of feelings and situations than a lot of other UnOrdinary characters.

Elaine’s “bad” moral traits:

Judgemental

Selective kindness

Unintentionally (?) biased

Doesn’t think for herself

Usually only shows her ‘good’ moral traits when interacting with her friends or with high-tiers

Elaine’s bad and good traits are surprisingly well-balanced. She’s not the perfect nice girl everyone currently seems to view her as. She has one of the most strategically used mindsets in UnOrdinary, but sometimes I feel it can be a little too subtle to actually notice. Because of the circumstances the storyline puts her in, we don’t really get to see as many of Elaine’s darker traits as there actual are.

It feels strange to write this about Elaine, one of the characters that seems to be the most recognized for her soft personality. And, I get it. Hell, I’ve hated her because she was so plain and nice and boring, but above all, actually, I disliked the way that her character was being used. God, Elaine has so much potential to just make the world of UnOrdinary so much more complex, but I feel like at this point of the story, it would be redundant to show Elaine’s worse traits because of what’s already been established, and it upsets me because I know that forcing Elaine’s less than admirable personality traits now in the story would take away from it, probably even backtracking the story, but seeing a character’s diversity is so important, especially for a main character. I support what uru-chan is doing with her right now because the loss of half of Elaine’s character does not outweigh the quality of the storytelling. But: All of Elaine’s flaws were shown in the beginning of the story, and I worry it’s been so long that most people have forgotten them.

So, I’m here now to give you reasons to hate Elaine, ok? Yeah, this is going to be fun.

I personally believe Elaine someone who thinks she’s nice, but really is selective with whom she’s nice to, if you understand what I’m saying. Elaine is that one popular girl who is apparently shy and acts all sweet around other popular kids, but is the type of person to also yell at some loner in the bathroom for being a loser or something.

She acts kind, but only to those that she considers worthy of attention. If she doesn’t care about you because you’re irrelevant, I’m sorry. You’re going to be treated like shit.

Liking Elaine as a character is actually so confusing, though. Because the first scene we ever see of her, she acts all friendly, but turns on John the instant he reveals that he is a weak low-tier, a cripple even. In other words, a waste of Elaine’s time.

Because of how that scene went down, its surprising how people think of her as this people pleaser, which she is, just only when she has something to gain. I think that the second part of her second scene in the comic (which I’ll show later) kind of overpowered anyone’s initial reaction to Elaine, whether they forgot who she was or whether they just hadn’t seen enough to label her as a total bitch.

Elaine’s second scene. At first, is also pretty bitchy. At the very end of episode 12, Elaine is waiting for Seraphina to come home from John’s house where she spent the night. Elaine says to Sera, “Why didn’t you answer and of my texts? Where were you last night? You had me worried sick.” On its own, it doesn’t sound too bad, but the panel also has a picture of Elaine glaring and with crossed arms. Also, when the scene continues into the next episode (episode 13), Elaine says, “Were you hanging out with that loser cripple again?! I DON’T GET WHY YOU’RE ALWAYS WITH HIM! YOU’RE MAKING YOURSELF LOOK BAD.” (Caps are proper quotes, I didn’t change them). It’s obvious at this point of the comic that Elaine is a character that you’re supposed to hate.

So… why is she widely known as this innocent and kind person?

Because of her like split fking personality that’s why skdfhigiuisrdughsk.

Elaine’s character experiences such drastic changes so quickly from scene to scene, it’s hard to peg her personality at first because it seems like she has every generic personality stuffed into her brain and they just take turns controlling her. In the same episode as Elaine insults John in front of Seraphina (episode 13), she literally gets a phone call, answers it, and turns into this stuttering, soft, bubbly mess, like what? (Second part of Elaine’s second scene).

Literally five lines after she acts all bitchy towards Seraphina, Elaine has this conversation with Arlo:

Elaine: “Ah, h-hello!”

Arlo: “Hey, I’m about to head out. Is Seraphina back yet?”

E: “Y-yea, she just got back!”

A: “Alright, I’m on my way.”

… What? In one of the earliest scenes Elaine is in, she goes completely 180º and turns into the basic, shy, adorable girl. This being such a contrast from literally everything we’ve seen from her character so far has to confuse the readers. Not in a bad way like the writing itself is confusing, but like the interesting and intriguing kind of confusing. The switch-up grabs the reader’s attention because suddenly the annoying, popular bitch (because, let’s be honest, that’s how her character reads up to this point) has suddenly revealed that she’s not like that all the time. Her character had been such a cliche that readers must have been pleasantly surprised to see that her character isn’t so black and white. Similar to the end of a movie or when you learn some secret about a character in a story, Elaine’s personality change makes it seem like you finally understand her, if that makes sense. It’s a storytelling cliche for something to be revealed about a mean character that makes them so much more understandable. Like Draco Malfoy when you learned how he just wanted to please Voldemort and make his family proud. That kind of thing.

This, I feel, is one reason why so many UnOrdinary fans like Elaine so much. It feels like they’ve skipped ahead in the story, makes them feel like they’ve been shown into Elaine’s life. Whenever this happens in other stories, the mean girl almost always gains redemption. Without realizing, some readers must associate Elaine’s supposed hidden, kind personality with some sort of atonement without Elaine ever actually doing anything or revealing anything. Because of widespread storytelling styles, our brains can easily connect this to patterns we see in most types of literature or media. We just skip over the middle part of, you know, the actual redemption. This trope being shown at the very beginning of the comic doesn’t give readers time to get used to Elaine before it happens, so they’re left pretty early on feeling that Elaine is being redeemed as a mean girl, but haven’t even seen the full extent of her morally bad traits. So, basically what I keep repeating: from the get go, Elaine’s appearances from scene to scene give the impression of someone who is trying to redeem themselves or has already redeemed themselves, without any of that actually ever happening.

I do not, however, think this is true for many fans. After this relatively clear switch near the beginning, Elaine’s character stays pretty consistently kind. When you see her being friendly more than you see her insulting some low-tier, it’s easy to associate her more with that. Maybe at the beginning of the story, this fake redemption would have drawn people to Elaine, but not this deep into the story. Because, let’s be honest, nobody even remembers her character from the beginning. It’s so easy to believe that Elaine’s character has always been portrayed the way it is being now because that’s all we’ve been shown for the past like 100 episodes. Elaine never really gets redeemed for what she did or how she acted towards the low-tiers. There’s not even evidence that her morals have changed at all or that she is more open-minded. It’s just, as the story progresses, Elaine is shown more and more exclusively talking to high-tiers or well-respected people at Wellston. As the story drags on, her negative traits are still there (we can assume this because we never see anything that clashes with this), they’re just not being shown. Elaine’s less desirable traits are being forgotten. All anyone really remembers or knows now is that Elaine is shy and kind. With or without the fake redemption I was talking about, she’s been acting like this for so long, it doesn’t even occur to most people that she didn’t used to be so nice.

This doesn’t fully explain why people like Elaine so much, but it’s a start to our investigation. This might explain why people don’t hate her as much as they should, based on canon events. They’re never actually shown her worst traits as much as they were in the beginning and the memory of those beginning events are fading.

I’m here to remind you: Elaine acts horribly to anyone that she doesn’t consider her level and she determines that mostly by tier. There’s loads of examples in like the first fourth of the comic, but not in recent chapters. Be aware of this.

I do believe I know the reason why she thinks and acts like this, though.

I’ve brought up this same thing in a post where I talked about Seraphina, but I think it was used differently than how I’m going to use it here, and, obviously, because of the reason, the circumstances are going to be different. I believe that Elaine has her mindset as it is because of her parents, how she was raised, and what she learned from the adults that surrounded her when she was younger.

Like I said, I’ve brought this up when talking about Seraphina once. I can’t find the post, but I basically said that Sera tended to be intensely self-involved because her parents always told her to watch herself, that she had to be number one, that she was in the spotlight because of her power. Elaine is different, though. I mean, obviously, we’re dealing with different issues here, so yeah.

Elaine inherited her tier discrimination mindset from her parents.

We know that Elaine’s parents have a good relationship with her (they send her oranges), so they probably talk a lot, so obviously Elaine would be influenced by their ideals. Also, I can’t think of any example out of any story ever or even in real life where someone discriminated against certain people or things when their parents didn’t. Ever. The kids are never that much more judgmental than their parents, kids usually even breaking the cycle. That’s how it’s been in real life for the last few years, and it’s great. Back on topic: I don’t believe Elaine gained these beliefs on her own. I believe her parents probably drilled it into her that she had to only associate with higher-tiers because not only is she not actually ambitious, which you would expect from someone who only acts decently to those who have more power than she, but she herself isn’t a high-tier. I don’t think she would learn to discriminate against those in her own tier (though she is a 3.5, not shabby) if not told by someone that she should because like…? Who’s like that?

So that’s why I’ve come to the conclusion that Elaine has been raised to believe that higher-tiers are more respectable and the only people deserving of total respect, based solely off of their ability, not their personality. Not something that I think is necessarily important to the questions I’m answering, so I didn’t really try to further my investigation into this, but I wanted to say what I think about this because I think it kind of impacts how I classify her as a person (good or bad)... god that sounds wrong to say.

This theory doesn’t excuse Elaine however. I didn’t excuse Seraphina for what I believed her parents were responsible for and I won’t let Elaine slide either. I hold her to this. She still does believe that low-tiers are inferior. That’s still an issue.

Most people that like Elaine like her because of her kind personality. She’s cute and shy, and that’s usually an instant recipe for success, right? But despite that obviously being the stereotype uru-chan was going for, she also managed to weave some character complexity into Elaine. It makes me sad that nobody notices, but I suppose it isn't super obvious.

I don’t think there is a definitive point that made Elaine into an understandable and likeable character, but her character detail is much more complex than I thought. I personally like characters for having diverse and different thoughts, so I like her concept. But to the people who like Elaine because she is nice and friendly… Move on to Remi. Elaine is not that person.

Liking Elaine is just a matter of what you enjoy in a character. I don’t like her personality, but I do think her character as a whole gives the UnOrdinary world such a diverseness.

Elaine is not a good person. I’m answering the question right here, right now. She’s, what word can I use here, tierist (?). She discriminates against people she doesn’t deem worthy of attention (bit too extremely worded but eh) and she decides who’s worthy based almost purely on ability, as we’ve seen so many times in this comic. Yes, she’s kind to her friends or people she wants to get closer with, but that should be a given. So I’m not exactly counting that as a good trait about her because it’s such a basic and fundamental thing, it would stand out a lot more if she wasn’t nice to her friends. It would be a lot more noticeable because how Elaine acts right now with her friends is honestly a societal expectation.

So: Elaine is a bad person, a diverse character, and someone that I’m overall happy to have in the story because of how her character impacts other characters and the plot around her. As with so many characters, in UnOrdinary especially, losing her presence in the story would drastically change the events of UnOrdinary. Without Elaine being who she is, UnOrdinary wouldn’t be what it is.

She’s still a dumb bitch tho.

#webtoon #unordinary #unordinary webtoon #uruchan #uru-chan #line webtoon #webcomic #elaine #elaine from unordinary #Elaine: Is She a Bad Person and Why People Like Her #official

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liskantope · 5 years

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Recently I finally got around to watching the episode of Sam Harris’ podcast where he debates Daniel Dennett on free will. This is definitely one of the more unusual episodes: they were holding a back-and-forth discussion sharing a single microphone in a noisy bar during a conference, and Dennett in particular seemed quite halting and unpolished. It’s also a very striking example of two debaters mostly talking past one another, but I’m not going to hold that against Harris and Dennett -- from what I’ve seen it’s pretty much impossible for anyone to actually engage with one’s opponent in the battle between hard determinism and compatibilism, especially given that it’s mostly a question of defining terms.

Anyone who has read enough of my posts on free will might rightly guess that I’m completely on Dennett’s side here. Not that Dennett managed to fully articulate his position -- he was mostly focused on rebutting or deflecting particular points coming from Harris -- but just about everything he said strongly reflected my way of thinking about free will. Harris, on the other hand, kept making arguments that came across to me as weak or confused, which is uncharacteristic of my usual impression of him.

Below the cut are a couple of points in the conversation where Sam Harris brought up arguments which I’m pretty sure are quite wrong but are still interesting to mull over.

The first one is starting right before the 45-minute mark, when Harris says:

[T]his notion that the tiny micro-adjustment in the universe only really spells the difference in cases it’s a decision that could go either way [...] it wasn’t a diversion of that great consequence because it wasn’t something you were fully committed to, but I think there are probably many actions -- maybe “decisions” are the wrong category, but certainly actions -- where the difference between a life-changing action and not is just a matter of a tiny piece of real-estate in the brain being otherwise. So the difference between thinking something and saying it out loud to the person you’re thinking it about, or the difference between sending that angry e-mail you wrote to your boss or to your best friend and just deciding to scrap it -- that can be one of those tiny moments where, but for a little more sleep the night before, your life would be very different.

I don’t quite know what point Harris is trying to make here, and I’m not sure Dennett knew either, but it seemed to me when I first listened through the full podcast that Harris was bringing it up to suggest that our traditional sense of moral responsibility really doesn’t make sense in a deterministic world: some of our most character-defining moments are the ones most reliant on randomness. Except what he actually said above was that some of our most life-changing moments rely on near-randomness. I agree with the obvious truth of this! But I would say that just on the face of the examples he gives, it would seem like (in isolation) these are not particularly character-defining events and therefore don’t imply a strong degree of moral responsibility. On the other hand, it’s easy to see why Harris is tempted to say that they do! If you think about it, major character-defining moments in fiction are typically portrayed as climactic events where the character is feeling very torn between two choices, it’s almost 50-50, and then some slight but significant factor tips him/her one way or the other.

I think we could interpret those character-defining moments as they’re portrayed in fiction in another way, though: they are showing someone (let’s say, an emergent hero, although an analogous view works for emergent villains such as Walter White at the end of the second season) overcoming some major obstacle in the form of temptation and an emotional struggle. The odds were stacked against them in the first place, in the sense that doing wrong is the far, far easier path and the one that lesser people would almost certainly take. Our hero, representing the best among us, is able to overcome this obstacle, but in order for us to appreciate just how hard it is to overcome and perhaps also to make them both more relatable and more inspiring, we see that the hero just barely overcomes it. Thus, we witness a character-defining moment, but the character-definingness comes not from the fact that something tipped our hero to the right choice when their internal conflict had the choice at around 50-50, but the fact that the hero managed to get the choice between what’s right and what’s easy up to 50-50 in the first place when most of us would have simply taken the easy choice, no contest.

I’ve pondered this in particular for the case of Luke Skywalker, after seeing a lot of criticism of his portrayal in The Last Jedi where the critics argue that his momentary impulse and aborted attempt to murder Ben Solo is inconsistent with his character as established in the original trilogy. My response has always been to point out that his character-defining moment at the climax of Return of the Jedi was a case of an internal conflict reaching 50-50 and Luke just barely being pushed into choosing the light side -- after cutting off his father’s hand, he very nearly finishes the job at the Emperor’s urging. The right revelation passes through his mind at the right moment, and so he doesn’t, resulting in what’s certainly a life-changing moment not only for him but possibly for the whole galaxy. (And of course a similar thing could be said about Darth Vader’s character-defining moment shortly afterwards where he just barely manages to overcome the evil and hatred he’s been entrenched in for so long but that makes all the difference.) So Luke isn’t a god or a saint; he just managed to marginally swing in the right direction at a crucial moment. Therefore, the fact that Luke so nearly goes the other way makes it perfectly plausible, in my opinion, that sometime later on, Luke might still slide in the other direction, at least momentarily.

Now there are two ways to unpack my argument there. First, we can say that my argument implies that Luke isn’t really a hero after all -- his most consequential act doesn’t say that much about his character because it happened in a moment where things could have gone either way and luckily, some semi-random fleeting thought pushed things in the right direction. This argument would annoy the critics and for good reason: the original trilogy clearly didn’t intend the audience to come to such a lukewarm conclusion about Luke Skywalker. So I prefer a second unpacking, which is to consider what I argued in the paragraph above, and view Luke as a hero just for overcoming temptation (the Dark Side -- anger, hatred, greed -- is not stronger but the more seductive path!) and pushing the balance up to 50-50 in the first place, both when confronted by the two Sith lords at the end of Episode VI and when confronted with the titanic threat of his wayward nephew a generation later.

The other of Harris’ points that I thought seemed kind of confused was just after the 1:00 mark when he presented what he called “a bit of a paradox”. For this thought experiment, you take the “most competent agent”, say Tiger Woods at his peak strength in a golfing context, and you imagine that he’s attempting a 2-foot putt, for which it’s reasonable to assume he’ll have a 99.9% success rate, but this is the one time he doesn’t get it. Harris says that “on its face”, Tiger Woods is the one you can hold most responsible for missing such a putt, “the most culpable of any person on Earth”. And yet at the same time, since Tiger Woods is the most skilled golfer in the world who would normally always make the putt, luck must play a bigger role in his missing the putt than it would for you or me -- as Harris puts it, it “says the least about him” -- and makes Woods the least responsible person on Earth for missing it.

I’m pleased that Daniel Dennett responded by repeatedly affirming that there’s no paradox, but his explanation sounded garbled and in my opinion missed the point. The point is quite simply that Harris’ two interpretations that seem to contradict each other, the Most Responsibility view and the Least Responsibility view, are each arrived at through different external assumptions on how the event of Woods missing the putt unfolded. The Least Responsibility view is explicitly based on the assumption that Woods must have missed the putt through terrible luck. The Most Responsibility view is one that might instinctively be taken by most outsiders, precisely because such terrible luck seems vanishingly unlikely, so they assume that Woods didn’t have terrible luck and therefore must actually be at fault in some way: perhaps he was being lazy or careless, or starting to rest on his laurels out of a complacency brought on by his recent success, or made the foolish choice of staying out too late the night before (as Dennett suggests), or something else that we think of as implying moral culpability. Objectively speaking, Woods bears some well-defined degree of responsibility, which depends on the actual causes of his failure. But since none of us onlookers have complete information on those causes, we tend to assign high or low degrees of responsibility to him depending on our default assumptions as to whether either extremely bad/careless behavior or really terrible luck should be eliminated as possibility.

#sam harris #daniel dennett #free will #Hard Determinism #compatibilism #Breaking Bad #episode vi #episode viii #tiger woods

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sherlockmyonlychemicaldefec-blog · 7 years

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Everything I have to say about Sherlock at this point (including some unpopular opinions)

Hello to anyone reading this post who I assume is or was at some point a fan of BBC Sherlock, I hope each one of you is having a good time despite everything that may be going wrong in your life right now. Things always get better, I promise  So, I’ve been thinking about writing this post for a while now and I feel like now is the best time to do so. You see, about a month ago I watched this TedTalk that really affected how I think( why do you think you’re right even when you’re wrong). I really suggest you watch the video, but to summarize it, it was about how we need to think and act like a scout and not a soldier. A Soldier’s main concern is to attack or defend herself, her heart starts pounding, her hormone levels are elevated and basically she cares about defeating the opponent more than anything else. Scouts on the other hand mainly focus on seeing exactly what is there, there is no bias, there is no attacking, it is simply observing in the best way possible. This is exactly what all of us must do in order to have a healthy conversation and unfortunately it is hard thing to do I admit. However hard we try, we can never be 100% unbiased and I find that very natural. Still, I try my best to stay unprejudiced and as challenging as this feat is, it is worth it. Everything I am about to say in the following paragraphs I have tried to analyze based on everything I’ve been observing in this fandom and even though I do not claim at all that all of these are completely unbiased, I have to say I tried my best. ( it would still be very faulty because who am I kidding, we’re all human beings and we are biased) Before I start I need to give a background of myself. Because I have not seen anyone in this fandom with a background similar to mine. I’m almost 21. I come from a country where being gay is considered both a sin and a crime. If they find out you are gay or catch you in the act, you will be hanged. Dreadful huh? People here are generally very very homophobic, if you live in America, just multiple the level of homophobia there by 1000X and maybe, maaaaaybe you’ll get a little close to the rate here. I do not mean to scare the hell out of you, I’m just trying my best to paint a good picture. I consider myself an asexual even though I’m not sure because I do not feel like I physically hate sex when I’m having it, I just mentally find the idea of sex disturbing. I cannot even tolerate making out or kissing scenes, the sound does the same thing to my ears that scratching the ground with your nails. Sex in general is one of the most disgusting things I believe exists in this world and I just wish that there was some cuter way of making babies. I don’t think I’m gay because I like boys but I’m not sure if I’m straight either. I’ve been following everything’s that’s been happening in the Sherlock fandom ever since season 4 started. I’m not a very old fan of Sherlock, I started watching the show less than a year ago and I have to admit, I was obsessed with it instantly. I did not get into this fandom until after finishing season three and because I was at first a hardcore AdLock shipper (still kinda am) and also a Molly-lover (still am) and currently am in Love with Johnlock I think I can pretty much relate to lots of people here. Before explaining myself, just let me say this. I Abhor and despise The Final Problem from the bottom of both my heart and brain. I just hate it. Now before I get judged for spreading hate, I should say that this is not spreading hate. There is a spectrum of evaluation for anything. If someone has the right to say something was perfect and she loved it. I have the right to say it was terrible and I hate it. I do not hate any Person, just their creation, or better to say, what they have done to their creation. You see, I think there are three main attitudes people can have towards BBC Sherlock ( Relating to JohnLock) 1- John and Sherlock’s relationship is very important in the series but it is just a deep platonic bond. 2- John and Sherlock’s relationship is important in the series and it is romantic. 3- John and Sherlock’s relationship is not that important and it is all about the cases and the adventures. Honestly, and this is my personal opinion, I think the final problem cannot satisfy any of these attitudes. There was no romance there, the platonic bond was gone and was there even a case? I do not mind at all Sherlock and john getting together romantically, but I would have been completely satisfied and happy with them just being very good friends like they were at the end of episode one for example. But even that friendship was gone. Would you just stand there doing nothing when your best friend is putting a gun on himself with a countdown to shoot? Now I have seen some people saying that John had just become numb but this episode was supposed to be a finale, characters needed to come to complete their transformation, so John’s transformation was to become completely numb and indifferent toward his best friend killing himself? To me, it does not make any sense. I did not see the episode when it was leaked but I saw many people being upset by it and when I finally watched it this was my very first reaction : ( bursting into laughter) can’t you see what’s happening guys??!? They made this episode so explicitly ridiculous that they did not even think anyone would doubt its fakeness!! “ I’m not even exaggerating, this was my first reaction, to me, from the very first scene, the episode felt like a parody, a very cheesy play I kept waiting for the scene to change into the real one and it just did not., and for weeks I did not even want to explain to people why I thought it was fake because it was just so obvious to me. I did not even need metas or theories, for me the umbrella-sword-gun was enough proof for the triteness and stupidity of the episode. I mean, I couldn’t just understand how people can ignore the cheesiness of this scene: a show like Sherlock cannot pull of such cartoonish scenes, it just does not fit, can you understand what I’m saying? Such scenes do not belong to the Sherlock universe. What my thoughts are on TJLC: I’m a person who hates sex and believe me when I say this, John and Sherlock are the only couple that I will not mind at all having sex and you know why? There are just toooo many stupid shallow romantic movies of guys and girls who look into each other’s eye and jump into bed together the next day that I’m just craving for deep bond and true loves stories. John and Sherlock have killed for each other, sacrificed everything for each other, changed because of each other, grew in character because of each other, I just feel like I’m ready for them to do whatever they wanna do. It just feels right. I see nothing wrong with it. What is love if it is not what’s between Sherlock and John? This is the love I want. True love. Now, I think some of theories and opinions in TJLC are pretty far-fetched or at least could be interpreted in so many other ways too. For instance, the scene with Janine and Sherlock kissing and john freaking out and insisting to know what has happened: TJLC claims it’s because John is jealous but to me, it’s more like he is very curious and confused because honestly if you have a friend who considers any type of romantic relationship stupid and pointless how will you react if you see her/him kissing someone? He could be jealous but other interpretations are also valid. This is of course just an example, there are some other points I do not agree with. And then there’s this opinion that we should try to encourage men having deep relationships without having to make it sexual which I also strongly agree with. Now all of these aside, I personally believe it does not matter who you ship Sherlock with or which of those three attitudes you have toward the show, The Final Problem does not make sense. I am not exactly a pro-TJLC and then I am not completely against it. I love Irene, I love Molly and I love the cases. The point I’m trying to make by saying all of these is that I have been trying hard to make sense of the finale and I just can’t, even though I do not restrict myself to just one part of this fandom(Even though I find TJLC more fascinating )and believe me, when I love a show, I do anything to defend its perfection and yet I have not been able to defend TFP. I’m ashamed of it. And still, still, still I can’t accept it was real. Something must’ve happened, because if they had a problem with Sherlock getting together with John or anyone else, still they could’ve done it much better. I’m a person who would not have been bothered by them not becoming romantically involved and still TFP was like a nightmare to me. I just do not get how some people like it. Don’t get me wrong, everyone’s free to like what they want, it’s just that I don’t see how it is possible. Because to me, it was just soooooo corny, unrealistic and pointless. Bringing up a character and making the whole show about her, claiming everything the protagonist is now is because of her, this is just a very cheap trick and I can’t believe how such good writers would do this. What’s my y most important point? You do not have to be hardcore JohnLock shipper to be disappointed with the episode. TFP sucked in all kinds of way and as much as I love to like it I just can’t. Now my fellow scouts, if you disagree with any of my points or want to have a healthy conversation my ask is always open. My fellow TJLCers: I do not think you are wrong about TFP at all❤️ and this comes from someone who does not completely agree with all of your opinions :) you are amazing people and I love your work. I hope there is some sort of explanantion for all this because it is bugging my mind more than my heart. Again, I'm here if everyone feels like discussing things

#Sherlock #TFP #the final problem #TJLC #TFHC #Sherlock BBC #Johnlock #tjlc

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