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EPISODE 19: TOTAL PACIFISM RECALL
The school year is over and it's time for yearbook superlatives. As of episodes 37 and 38, here are your winners:
Most likely to be crowned Miss Universe on account of literally being queen of the world right now: Relena Peacecraft.
Most dead: Tsubarov (RIP).  
Most likely to transform into a leather daddy for the Pride parade: Gundam Epyon.
Most likely to be caught in the middle of a fight for unions in the after colony gig economy: Duo Maxwell.
Most likely to begin a sentence with "As an empath...": Quatre Raberba Winner. 
Most likely to be cancelled on Twitter for her problematic behavior: Catherine (and we have the receipts).
Most likely to run off with the circus: this show, which can't resist another circus scene.
Most unfortunate karaoke song: Trowa's seiyuu's valiant rendition of his image song, "The Clown," which along with more recent anime-inspired music like Richie Branson's Wing Zero EP is our fandom artifact for this episode. 
Episode on Anchor | Transcript | Fandom Artifact
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EPISODE 18: BIG TROUBLE IN SPACE CHINA
Back from our unplanned hiatus, it’s Untitled Tallgeese Podcast! Today on Gundams of Our Lives: The Wind Beneath Our Wings, we visit Space China, home of Wufei, and our hosts get into what, exactly, is going on with Chineseness in Space China. Did you know there’s an alternative universe where Wufei is from Africa? But in this universe, Gundam Wing’s main African representation is… the circus lion, because that’s right, we’re back in the circus, which is now in space. That’s the real reason we went on hiatus: faced with the prospect of releasing another episode about a Gundam circus, now forced to discuss the mechanics of launching an elephant into space, we podcasters could no longer take the indignity. We are on strike until Sunrise takes away our bread and circuses. Nonetheless, we push through to talk about the fandom artifact: the Gundam Wing cassette dramas! For those of us who need Duo to give us a wake-up call in the morning.
Episode on Anchor | Transcript | Fandom Artifact 1 | Fandom Artifact 2
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EPISODE 18: BIG TROUBLE IN SPACE CHINA
Back from our unplanned hiatus, it’s Untitled Tallgeese Podcast! Today on Gundams of Our Lives: The Wind Beneath Our Wings, we visit Space China, home of Wufei, and our hosts get into what, exactly, is going on with Chineseness in Space China. Did you know there’s an alternative universe where Wufei is from Africa? But in this universe, Gundam Wing’s main African representation is… the circus lion, because that’s right, we’re back in the circus, which is now in space. That’s the real reason we went on hiatus: faced with the prospect of releasing another episode about a Gundam circus, now forced to discuss the mechanics of launching an elephant into space, we podcasters could no longer take the indignity. We are on strike until Sunrise takes away our bread and circuses. Nonetheless, we push through to talk about the fandom artifact: the Gundam Wing cassette dramas! For those of us who need Duo to give us a wake-up call in the morning.
Episode on Anchor | Transcript | Fandom Artifact 1 | Fandom Artifact 2
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[TRANSCRIPT] EPISODE 18: BIG TROUBLE IN SPACE CHINA
Episode 18
Cathy 00:00
[A midi of Just Communication plays and then fades]
Cathy 00:03
Hello and welcome back to Untitled Tallgeese podcast, a podcast where four old friends rewatch and discuss Gundam Wing. I'm Cathy, your host for today and I'm joined as always by Kat, Mallory and Caitlin. This week we start off with Episode 35: The Return of Wufei where, of all the rainy streets, in all the rainy towns, an amnesiac Trowa just happens to bump into Catherine, who is out getting her groceries. She instantly realizes that something is wrong with him. But instead of getting him any professional help, she brings him back to the circus, where he meekly helps her put away her sexy knife-throwing outfits. As the title indicates, this is the episode where the show remembers that Wufei is one of the Gundam pilots and that we haven't heard from him in a while. [laughter] It turns out that he's back in his hometown of Colony L5, which is under the leadership of his clan patriarch Master Long, Master Long gives Wufei a new invigorated definition of justice, which is like just being true to oneself or something, I guess? Just in time for the Romefeller Foundation to attack. Fearing capture, Master Long blows up all of L5, while Wufei watches, making this either the most or second most traumatic Gundam pilot homecoming we've seen in this series. All the explosions draw the attention of Zechs Merquise, who rides in on Wing Zero and the Peacemillion, hoping Wufei will ally with him. But Wufei, as you may expect, tells Zechs he'll only listen if Zechs fights him in a Gundam duel, which is extremely stupid, but okay. They make out like an epic 1v1 in a Gundam fighting game, before the Zero System overwhelms Zechs' pretty boy nerves, and he has to take some smelling salts in the form of Howard yelling at him over the intercom.
Cathy 01:42
New ships, old ships and a partially built battleship are the stars of Episode 36. If there was ever an episode that could have been inducted into the 4x9 nine canon, this would be it. In the last episode, we got a flashback of Quatre, leaving the Sanc Kingdom after bidding a fond farewell to Noin. He needs to find the remains of Sandrock which, remember, walked off after Quatre's ill-fated attempt at pulling a Heero. After faking his own death to distract some Romefeller soldiers, Quatre attempts to cross the desert before collapsing in his very own Lawrence of Arabia LARP session, facedown in the sand. But worry not -- he's right where he needs to be, just in time to jump into a restored Sandrock and rescue the Maguanacs. They have a touching reunion, but alas, a Maguanac's duty is never over. And that's because Duke Dermail is finally ready to take over the Sanc Kingdom. Relena, to Noin's dismay, is insistent on a position of total pacifism. Heero is, of course, no help at all, and Noin is left wishing for Quatre's return. Which he does! Again, just in time to jump in on Sandrock and fight against the overwhelming Romefeller mobile dolls and mobile suits. Even with the added manpower, it's clear that the Sanc Kingdom won't last.
Cathy 02:49
Dorothy, ignoring Relena's order to evacuate, plays frontline war fujoshi, ultimately strengthening Relena's resolve to do what she believes is the only right answer: renounce sovereignty and dissolve the Sanc Kingdom in order to stop the fighting. Where's Heero in all this? Rollerblading on Epyon through the Romefeller mobile suits. And finally, we catch up with Duo and Hilde, who have been sussing out whether Duo should ally with independent rebel forces. Sensing Duo’s frustration with garbage adults who refuse to do anything, Hilde takes them to the only natural place for a date: Trowa's circus, which just happens to be in town. Duo, not realizing that Trowa has progressed to the equivalent of an anime six year old, asks Trowa where the other pilots are. But Catherine indignantly asks him to leave. Good! Maybe we are finally done with the circus!
Caitlin 03:36
We will never be done with the circus.
Mallory 03:38
I don't want to be done with a circus.
Caitlin 03:40
I am stunned that there is as much circus in the show as there is. [laughs]
Cathy 03:45
There is so much circus.
Caitlin 03:46
Of all the things that I thought my memory had lied to me about, I thought that the circus being a [laughter] really prominent part of Gundam Wing was a lie that I told myself.
Kat 03:56
Nope!
Caitlin 03:57
It's funny. No, in fact, the circus comes up every couple of episodes. This is like the homecoming episodes for a lot of them, and that Trowa's home is the circus.
Kat 04:08
It is. He returns to his now-sister question mark, but I really need to know how the circus got the elephant and the lion into space.
Caitlin 04:17
They make spaceships that big.
Kat 04:18
That elephant did not look healthy.
Caitlin 04:20
They make spaceships that big, I don't know. That doesn't shock me,
Mallory 04:23
Yeah, like a cargo hold.
Caitlin 04:25
If Gundams can get into space then elephants can get into space.
Cathy 04:29
I just feel like the point is that there would be a lot of money that would need to be spent on like, pressurizing the elephant, depressurizing the elephant?
Kat 04:37
Yeah
Cathy 04:37
Sure,
Kat 04:38
I think it would cost way too much to ship some wild animals to space.
Caitlin 04:43
They must be used to shipping large cargo to space because they built these colonies already. And so probably the circus just, just piggybacked on some other shipment.
Kat 04:55
But that's not living cargo.
Cathy 04:57
So, here's the thing. This is why I wish that the circus would go away, because now I have to talk about something about the circus, which is that I didn't understand the appeal of the circus when we were on Earth. But now that it's in the colonies, I'm like, oh, maybe it's such a big deal because these people don't normally see elephants and lions and stuff. So like, this is really exciting for them.
Caitlin 05:17
Most people on Earth are also not seeing elephants and lions
Cathy 05:23
But like they could go to a zoo.
Caitlin 05:24
I haven't seen an elephant or a lion in ages.
Kat 05:27
But you have seen them.
Caitlin 05:29
Yeah, but like
Kat 05:29
if you like grew up on a space colony,
Caitlin 05:32
Maybe you've never seen them.
Kat 05:34
Well. Maybe they have zoos. Maybe that's when they learned how to ship elephants to space when they set up all the colony zoos.
Cathy 05:41
Okay this is enough about circuses. I am putting my foot down no more circus talk
Caitlin 05:45
We are bread and circuses. [laughter]
Cathy 05:47
We are done with circuses. Okay, I want to talk about one of the most prominent things to me about this, which is episode 35 is clearly Wufei's homecoming episode. So he turns out to be at L5. We meet his clan leader Master Long, who I just want to put in here. The voice of the Japanese version is a little confusing, because it, it does not seem obviously an old man voice and it's the first time that I think we meet an old man character who does not have an obvious anime old man voice.
Caitlin 06:22
Wait, I thought it was an old woman.
Cathy 06:25
Yes. And I'm pretty sure Master Long is not [crosstalk]
Caitlin 06:27
I think, no, I think she might be a woman. Right? But I've been debating this so who knows
Kat 06:32
Master Long has a male voice for the dub. It felt really weird there too -- like the voice was equally weird in the dub as it was in the Japanese. [Ivy cat meows]
Cathy 06:42
So I'm bringing this up because I wonder if Master Long was supposed to be like, a eunuch, because Master Long is also wearing an outfit that, if this was a period drama, in like a Chinese period drama, he's wearing what looks like a eunuch outfit. So I am just calling that because so much of the like, Wufei identifiers in this anime are so very, very, very Chinese, [laughs] but like old Chinese. So I just thought that was really strange like it. That's when it came off to me immediately. And I wasn't sure if you guys had the same associations or if that was even meant to be the association.
Caitlin 07:20
I was thinking it was a woman but I wasn't sure. And I was also thinking that there was something on Wikipedia about like Meilan's grandmother. I was wondering if this was a relative of her in some way. I really couldn't tell.
Mallory 07:33
I mean, I guess I just assumed this is like, anime voice actor roles where you, anytime you have someone who isn't traditionally masculine, you know, a female voice actress could play that character, like with Quatre's voice actor, right. So that's kind of that's just sort of how my brain like, elided over that.
Caitlin 07:55
Okay.
Kat 07:56
I was thinking, like you, Caitlin. I was like, well, Master Long is a woman that, that's probably like, related to, like original Nataku Meilan.
Caitlin 08:09
I mean she's definitely related, it's the same last name, right?
Cathy 08:12
Yeah, yeah, they're all definitely part. I think Meilan is supposed to be a granddaughter of Master Long. I actually think Wufei is supposed to be part of the same family line too. But obviously, he has a different name, so maybe he married in?
Caitlin 08:29
Okay, the name is Long Shiran, literally nothing on the internet [laughter] indicates like a gender. And as you know, Japanese doesn't really require gender markers in its sentences, so I have no idea.
Cathy 08:46
So I guess moving on from this, you know, Master Long blows up, L5.
Kat 08:53
I had a couple of questions about this, which is one. So this is just one colony in an L5 cluster, right? It's like 02-00.
Cathy 09:01
Yes.
Kat 09:02
And two, are there civilians on this colony? [laughter] Because we get
Caitlin 09:08
Yeah that's a good question
Kat 09:09
a last shot of them.
Caitlin 09:10
I thought that something that she, that they said implied that they had gotten people off the colony, but I, I really wasn't sure.
Kat 09:21
So the colony is failing. But yeah, I was sort of like well, you probably could have evacuated some of those civilians if the, the people that we saw running from the Romefeller troops were civilians. Unclear.
Mallory 09:34
I mean yeah, I guess I was thinking that they weren't civilians at this point, that they were, I don't know, tasked to be part of whatever Master Long's entourages, but in plain clothes, who knows?
Caitlin 09:46
I also don't understand why the colony is failing. Can someone explain to me [laughter] explain me why colony fail?
Kat 09:52
I wasn't sure if it was connected to how the, like, making the Space Battleship is like taking all the resources and they've already taken all the resources to make all the mobile dolls and stuff.
Cathy 10:07
I do think it probably has to do something with resources to make Mobile Dolls. It can't be the spaceship because Tsuberov doesn't give the order -- well, okay, Gundam Wing has weird chronology but let's assume I think that Tsuberov doesn't get the order to make the second battleship until after this.
Kat 10:24
Okay, that's fair.
Cathy 10:24
So I don't think it's that, but I do agree -- I couldn't really figure out what Master Long was saying about why, why it was failing. Like was it because like young people had moved out like Wufei, like because obviously all the heirs are gone, the young heirs -- Meilan is dead, Wufei is a Gundam pilot. I think though it makes sense thematically that it's tied to this mining of whatever space resource they need to build a mobile suits and the battleship.
Kat 10:51
I think we also get a little in Episode Zero about the backstory, like they're not in a good colony because they were like politically excised from China.
Caitlin 11:01
Yeah, they're, they're weird holdovers from like older Chinese customs. And I think that's probably the show trying to excuse why they have all this like mix of period costumes. [laughter]
Mallory 11:12
So when Master Long is explaining why the colony is on a path of extinction, he says, "We have fought the evils of outer space." And I thought evils was an interesting choice of words. And I wasn't sure if he was actually using the word evil in Japanese.
Caitlin 11:29
He uses aku. They say aku (悪) a lot, which is like, bad badness, but it's used for evil. It's like an akuma. I think, I think Wufei says akuma at one point, which is demon. One thing is that I think good and evil has a much stronger, like Christian connotation in English than aku and, and the opposite has in Japanese.
Mallory 11:50
So maybe it's like the hardship of living in outer space or whatever. Like, it also kind of sounded like they were referring to this kind of push and pull of how the colonies have to depend on so many other resources in order to survive. And after a while, that's just not sustainable. And they're sort of reaching the end of whatever resources they have available to them.
Kat 12:14
That makes sense, because the resource satellites were like a big thing with Quatre's dad. And like those episodes, really early on, were showing us how difficult the system, the whole system of colonies are.
Cathy 12:25
Yeah.
Kat 12:26
But yeah, I think it's -- like all of that stuff is like sort of implied. It's not really clear from like the actual text.
Caitlin 12:35
There's also like the very strange theorisation of justice in this section where Master, Master Long basically says, You are the you are the arbiter of justice. Justice is what you decide. Your enemies aren't evil because they're evil, they're evil because they're your enemies or something, or maybe it's the opposite of that.
Kat 12:56
So he's saying, like, you're not going to defeat like evil. And to me, I thought of that as like ultimate like capital E, Evil, you will not defeat all of evil, but your enemies are the enemies you are defeating are evil. So like you can feel unburdened in your conscience.
Caitlin 13:11
The other thing is that we had a request from a listener at one point to talk more about race and racism in the fandom. And we were thinking about this maybe it was one venue where we could talk about that. This is like a wild depiction of ancient, ancient Chinese practices in this very, like modern colony setting. Cathy, [meow] is this an accurate depiction of Chinese culture?
Cathy 13:34
Yeah, this is exactly what China is like. [laughter] Um, you know, it's actually really interesting to me to see these episodes because [Ivy meows] I know I've talked about this before, I think in context of maybe the prequel manga? Everything about Wufei's whole clan just reads like a Chinese period drama to me. And I would be more offended by it if they also didn't do the same weirdness with Quatre?
Caitlin 14:04
Yeah that's true.
Cathy 14:05
So I think like these, these two things are the clearly racialized in a way that I think anybody watching it would, would pick up on those indicators. Like Quatre is clearly supposed to be this fictional, Middle Eastern, you know, [cat meows] whatever, whatever area, they will, [crosstalk] yeah, Arabic Middle Eastern concepts. And Wufei is also just like, you know, cheongsams and what I read to be a eunuch, and then also these ancient pagodas in the middle of otherwise downtown area. So.
Caitlin 14:40
The mixture of like this old space within this new space is kind of a cool choice. Like and so even though it's like, oh, stereotypical, China, we have to include a pagoda
Caitlin 14:51
I still think it is a really interesting idea that to have like a very modern colony landscape, and then the culture has brought with them some fake old thing or like some some semblance of a, it's Earth history in order to create a space that suits them in this mechanical world.
Mallory 14:51
Yeah,
Mallory 14:58
The fact that they have this like lush courtyard and everything signifies to me that they are the leaders of this colony, or they're at least the kind of like cultural leaders where they're given this the respect of being in a position where you can take up all this space.
Cathy 15:31
So the thing that this made me think of a lot is, there is a movement in China right now, where younger people are getting really into traditional Chinese clothes, they're called hanfu. And so this made me think of this made me think of if you are moving to, you know, you're moving all your people into outer space. Who knows where the Long Clan is from, like, maybe they're also taking in a whole bunch of people from all different places on Earth China. And so this is reversion to traditional concepts, like very obviously Chinese very obviously, like Han Chinese indicators may be a way of them, you know, bonding and like showing their culture in a really strong way that I think makes sense too in, in real life instead of just in anime. So I, I guess this is an instance where I feel like I'm reading really deeply into Gundam Wing in a way that they don't intend. Because if you look at Shanghai, like there are areas where they've tried to maintain traditional buildings and traditional infrastructures and made it new and shiny,
Mallory 16:39
Beijing too
Cathy 16:39
but also interesting. So that we protect that cultural resonance that that those places have. So I don't think that's necessarily what was intended. I think the creators just wanted to make Wufei seem really, really Chinese. Clearly why, but,
Caitlin 16:39
yeah,
Kat 16:55
When you're talking about that, when I was looking at it, I was thinking a little bit about Chinatown gates, but also how this contrast to what Cathy, you called "Chinaworld" in a previous episode. [laughter] To me this, this is more like a Disneyfied like, idea of like this aesthetic, and sort of the contrasts that they're giving us between this sort of like Chinese cultural hub in space versus what's actually happening on Earth. And like, I don't know what it's saying about like, how we would retain that culture in space or if that culture has been wiped, like from parts of China that we've seen or what but I thought it was interesting.
Caitlin 17:33
I could see them thinking of how Chinese immigrants create these Chinatown spaces that are Chinese themed, Chinese influenced. I could see the animators having that reference in mind.
Mallory 17:47
I do want to say one thing about Master Long in this exchange and scene -- I really liked that we heard Master Long say things like, "I'm positive Altron will welcome you" and "It's what Altron wants." Like they are clearly setting Wufei up for success in a way I don't know if I remember seeing the other Gundam pilots being set up for success.
Caitlin 18:10
Yeah
Mallory 18:11
Particularly in receiving new Gundam
Caitlin 18:14
He has more support than the other Gundams period.
Cathy 18:17
Yeah, he does.
Mallory 18:19
I was like this is the most emotional training or guidance any of the pilots have received thus far, [laughs] which is really sad because a lot of it is like nonsense and is just believe in yourself and you will find justice.
Caitlin 18:31
That new Gundam is so cool. I love it's color scheme
Cathy 18:35
I loooove Altron
Caitlin 18:36
I love its sticky thing, its point- pointy thing. I love everything about it
Kat 18:40
its wings.
Caitlin 18:41
Yeah,
Kat 18:41
it's got weird weird little wings. love 'em
Mallory 18:44
I really like the green color palette.
Caitlin 18:46
Why is it called Altron?
Cathy 18:47
I believe Altron is based off the idea of the Chinese word èr tóu (二头) which means two heads. And that's because Altron, unlike Shenlong, has two of those extendable dragon fang things so he is an èr -- he is an èr tóu lóng (二头龙), as like two-headed dragon as opposed to Shénlóng (神龙), like God Dragon, which is what Shenlong Gundam is based off of.
Caitlin 19:13
You should -- that's excellent information.
Cathy 19:16
Anyway, moving on to another highly racialized presence in our series. I want to talk about Quatre. I really want to talk about Quatre/Noin, but I must say that I know that we talked about how he's Lawrence of Arabia -- like we talk about him in these two episodes? [laughs]
Caitlin 19:32
I legit think
Kat 19:33
I was like for /real/ Lawrence of Arabia.
Caitlin 19:34
we need to have -- some of these shots are, I think are almost exactly from Lawrence of Arabia.
Cathy 19:40
Not to mention like, then him finding the Maguanacs, like that is just Lawrence of Arabia. Isn't that just the movie?
Caitlin 19:45
Yes! He gets adopted by, he gets adopted by some sexy Arabs. That's the plot.
Mallory 19:50
Wasn't that already Quatre's backstory?
Caitlin 19:52
Yes.
Kat 19:53
It was, but this is, so this is like the flip around where he gets to rescue the sexy Arabs
Mallory 19:57
Right, right.
Cathy 19:57
I honestly did not remember Quatre having this much of a relationship with Noin until this rewatch. There is more to this relationship than I remembered. And I think Quatre is doing the thing that he does with everybody in the show, which he seems to have like a really strong relationship with anybody he interacts with. And especially at the end of 36, where Noin asks him if he'll go to outer space with her. And he's basically like, yes, like, I mean, Noin has a lot of simps in Gundam Wing, but this was like, like, a big Quatre simping for Noin moment. [crosstalk]
Mallory 19:57
I mean she inspires loyalty!
Caitlin 19:58
I don't think it was Quatre simping for Noin. I think they have a have a good, equal relationship. They mutually simp.
Cathy 20:39
Yes, well okay there's a mutual simp.
Caitlin 20:40
There's a degree of of mutual sympathy.
Mallory 20:45
Of course, Quatre's gonna to say yes to going to space because space is where his boyfriend is. Who, well, his boyfriend who he doesn't know is amnesiac. Like, I figure he's, maybe he's not thinking about it, like right then and there. But he's like, at the end when he talks with the Maguanacs, he's like, I've got other things to do. And then he looks to, he literally looks to space and then Trowa shows up. So I sort of feel like
Caitlin 21:12
Oooh, he's longing for his lost love.
Mallory 21:14
It's just there subconsciously. And he's like, of course, I'm going to go to space because space is the last place that I know where Trowa was.
Caitlin 21:22
Yeah, I also think Quatre just goes, like switches from Earth to space Earth to space at other people's, like, suggestion.
Mallory 21:30
He's also gonna follow any strong lady who like, brings him under her wing. So Relena, he was like, instantly loyal to Relena and now Noin.
Kat 21:41
But yeah I really liked their little, their, their relationship. I mean, Zechs is in space as well. So, you know, they both have that sort of star-crossed lover thing going on, too.
Cathy 21:53
But Noin knows exactly where Zechs is
Kat 21:55
Yes, that's true.
Caitlin 21:55
Yeah, and I'm pretty sure Zechs being in space is tactically why Noin suggested they go to space, not like emotionally like that's, like like she has a logical reason to go regroup and join up with Zechs.
Mallory 22:08
Why not both?
Caitlin 22:09
Well, because she's, she's a lesbian, and she's in love with Relena now, and Sally Po. So she can't she can't be in love with Zechs. I'm sorry. It's over.
Kat 22:16
I like the Sally Po name drop.
Cathy 22:18
Yeah, to be fair, it's sort of like what else is she going to do? Right, there is no more Sanc Kingdom. Relena has been taken by Dorothy to the Romefeller Foundation. She needs to do something. And I think, you know, it makes sense for her to go rejoin with Zechs. Mallory, I like that you bring back the Quatre/Trowa relationship. Because jumping ahead to when Duo first meets Trowa he immediately asks, "Where's Heero?"
Kat 22:46
Yes!
Caitlin 22:46
Yeah
Cathy 22:46
And I was thinking, oh okay, the show has decided we have to go back to our original pairs
Caitlin 22:52
We've reaffirmed the relationships.
Cathy 22:54
too much wandering around.
Caitlin 22:55
But Duo thinks that Trowa would would know where Heero is, which means that in the back of Duo's mind, he's also like, oh 1x3, that exists.
Mallory 23:04
Yeah, he knows that Heero and Trowa have been on a road trip apology tour, and that there's some intimacy that happened, but he's not going to question it too much.
Caitlin 23:16
Meanwhile, everybody forgets about Wufei. Where is Wufei!?
Cathy 23:21
Wufei is dueling with Zechs, which I -- you know, again, this this is part of the original pairing because Wufei's part of the Zechs/Treize triangle.
Caitlin 23:29
He's part of the, the adults triad.
Kat 23:32
We were just wondering last episode about where the 5x6 comes in, and I was like, Ah, it's this episode. It's literally this.
Cathy 23:42
Yeah, 5x6 is very much the like, we both wanted to bang/were banging/were banged by Treize couple. [laughter]
Mallory 23:49
Yesss.
Caitlin 23:50
Yes. Also, their battle is kind of like, like Zechs is like, "Don't fight me! We could be friends!" [laughter] And like, I get that from the perspective of the show, like it's better if the team up, but I wouldn't trust Zechs either. Wufei is right to just try to try to blow this guy up.
Mallory 24:09
Yeah, I love how Zechs was like, "How can I get you to listen?" and he goes, "By beating me, nyah!"
Caitlin 24:17
Like, yeah, and then Zechs is like, but I've left OZ and and Romefeller and the Earth Alliance and Wufei's like, but that just makes you a traitor! [laughter] He's he's right.
Cathy 24:31
He's right, but also I was just like, You're right. But you shouldn't say it Wufei like, what do you want from this man? He's trying so hard.
Kat 24:40
I like that Zechs was like like, Oh, that is an answer that a Gundam pilot would give me. [laughter] Like, of course.
Caitlin 24:45
Yeah I don't know what Zechs expected. This also made me think what's Wufei like in the Zero System, because he's so clear about his enemies. Maybe he, maybe he's in the Zero System later and I can't remember.
Cathy 24:58
Maybe the Zero Systems just gives up on him. He's like, go on.
Caitlin 25:01
Yeah the Zero System's just like, you just do whatever you want.
Kat 25:04
I mean, this episode kind of felt like his time in space crazy mode. Like watching his colony blow up. Then he just goes apeshit and everyone is his enemy and everyone he sees is evil. And it's sort of like, yes, most of those things that he saw are mobile dolls and Romefeller Foundation things, but like, you could kind of see him edging in the same direction that Zero System took other pilots.
Caitlin 25:28
[whispered] Yes I support Wufei
Kat 25:29
[laughing] I mean, you're not wrong.
Caitlin 25:32
Have we talked about how Wufei was originally going to be the character from Africa? that would have been interesting. Instead, they went with fake China. It also speaks to how like, you can just replace Africa with China in like the animator mindset. And all it means is that you have a little bit more context for like Chinese customs, and the character's still marginalized within the series.
Cathy 25:53
Yeah, I definitely think that was a replacement, because -- this is my headcanon. They were like, we actually don't know that much about Africa.
Caitlin 26:00
Right? They wouldn't, they wouldn't be able to draw like, seven different period time periods of African clothing.
Kat 26:07
Were like, the dudes in the room just like, but I watched Chinese dramas with my wife, so.
Cathy 26:12
Yes
Mallory 26:12
Yeah
Caitlin 26:13
They were, like we got, we know what these people look like, yeah.
Kat 26:17
But that is like, I mean, that's still such a huge hole and sort of the world building. Because there there are African bases, but like, we meet, like, maybe two Black characters so far?
Caitlin 26:29
And they're all evilish. And,
Cathy 26:32
And they both have died.
Kat 26:33
Yeah.
Caitlin 26:33
And they both died.
Cathy 26:34
Then I think the other major point that is brought up, you know, flushed out a lot in Episode 36 is Relena's total pacifism, her approach, her ending up, basically reneging on all of the Sanc Kingdom, because to her, that's the only way this radical surrender essentially, of herself and Sanc Kingdom turns out to be the only solution she can think of to stop fighting. The thing that I wanted to bring up is, I felt like in episodes 35 and 36, and even before that, when Quatre was still at the Sanc Kingdom, the three of them are sort of all dancing around the fact that they are concerned about how total pacifism will play out and how the Sanc Kingdom will enforce it and what's Relena's game plan. But they never really bring it up with Relena. Like Noin does, but to a certain extent Noin has this subordinate relationship with Relena as her like, essentially captain of the palace guard. So when she brings it up, it's not really like she's challenging it, so they just end up like dancing around. And there's a lot of bits in Episodes 35 and 36, where Heero and Noin are sort of just kind of like griping behind Relena's back about their confusion about this policy. And it takes Dorothy, basically while they're being attacked, about to get blown up by the Romefeller Foundation to actually confront Relena about it. Of course, she does it in her own Dorothy way, which is like, you know, war fujoshi. But I thought that was a really resonant part of Dorothy's characterization, that she's the only one of these people who actually comes out and forces Relena to describe what she wants to do and how she's going to get there.
Caitlin 26:40
Relena. is. so. hot! Sorry. [laughter] I just want to put that out there. You talked a lot about serious things. I think sexy, I am like Dorothy, I'm like, Okay, I'm still gonna call you sama even though you've even though absolved
Mallory 28:28
You are so beautiful. You're so beautiful when you talk about your ideals!
Caitlin 28:32
I am even more obsessed with Relena than I ever was. I think that surrendering was the right choice. I would think
Cathy 28:38
Yes
Caitlin 28:38
like if you truly believe in total pacifism, which I'm not sure I do. But theoretically, if I truly believe in something totally, the correct thing to do is to continue not to fight no matter what.
Kat 28:50
So I love this as a parallel to self-destructing? It's like the same thing, but completely opposite at the same time. It's like the only way to end fighting is to destroy myself or to destroy this Gundam, or to dissolve this Kingdom, because it's what's bringing the fighting here. And I love that. And I also love getting the perspective from everybody who is involved, like Noin is kind of just taking her tacit approval to, to just build a secret army. Heero doesn't believe in it at all, but thinks it's like, theoretically useful.
Caitlin 29:23
Yeah, I think that self-destruction comparison is really good because Heero seems to self-destruct because he, like, was taught somehow that that's what you're supposed to do when you lose and like, that's the way to like, prevent your enemies from getting the Gundam or whatever, it doesn't really matter that much. So he tries to do it all the time, and we all make fun of him. But Relena's self-destruction here is like a very deliberate choice. It's a self-destruction in service of something bigger.
Mallory 29:55
And it's like more tactical.
Caitlin 29:58
It's not like truly [crosstalk] truly a destruction. Yeah.
Mallory 30:02
Yeah.
Cathy 30:03
Well, I want to jump in actually there is a tactical time where Heero self-destructs, that's when Lady Une was threatening to blow up the colonies remember? And that's like his big self-destruction. And at that point, I don't think he comes up with it on his own because Dr. J actually is there sort of hinting that that's the answer, but I agree totally with the comparison of self-destruction and what Relena does here, but because I'm thinking of that moment, he takes the players off the board as it were by self-destructing the Gundam the same way Relena does by just giving up Sanc Kingdom.
Kat 30:36
And the same way that Master Long does with 0200, because that way Wufei doesn't even have to make a choice.
Caitlin 30:44
Yeah. And the sense is that the, in a battle, you assume the one thing that your enemy doesn't want to do is die. And so you base your tactics around that. If that's off the table, if your enemy will destroy itself, then you then it sort of puts you out of a mode where you can predict their actions.
Cathy 31:03
Yeah, and I just have always loved Relena as this symbol of hope, right? We've talked about how she doesn't pilot because in a sense that that's her role in this [cell phone rings] show is to not ever pilot or fight. So I just love the progression of episodes 35 and 36 because she goes from standing in front of all these old men and grandstanding, but also feeling conflicted that she doesn't know what action she can take, to the end of 36, where she essentially orders Dorothy to turn over everybody's private cell phone numbers so that she could [laughs] announce this thing.
Mallory 31:24
In a big group call.
Cathy 31:40
Publically.
Caitlin 31:41
Yes, nice.
Mallory 31:42
So Cathy, I really liked that you brought up hope because Heero says something similar to that. He says something like, total pacifism is what people hope for. And then he says, like, I'll fight to keep that hope alive. And I felt like that was a really striking evolution of Heero's feelings toward pacifism and like his idea of what pacifism is, from I'm a fighter, what use to I have for peace? I feel like he's now come around to well, pacifism is this idea that gives people hope and that is worth fighting for, which I thought was really a nice little moment.
Kat 32:18
I wanted to talk about a little bit about Heero, we're like looping around. And I think, Cathy, you mentioned Wufei trying to figure out who his enemy is and how these all tell you about your enemy. And I think we see Heero really come to a -- like he's still plagued by Epyon, but when he's talking to Noin, he says, "I only want to fight against those who try to conquer," which I think is probably the clearest, like articulation of how he feels about fighting and like who he is starting to frame his enemy as.
Caitlin 32:48
Yes.
Kat 32:49
So that felt like, important to to me.
Caitlin 32:51
He's starting to develop an ideology, yeah.
Cathy 32:54
Yes. And I feel like that was a really big indictment, whether he meant it or not to be one of Treize, because that was Treize's whole dynamic up until I guess he met the Gundam pilots, is that he felt like those who wanted war are meant to I don't know, whatever it was that he meant, but it felt like it felt like it was a subtweet about Treize.
Caitlin 33:16
Hello? Did I -- Oh, yeah. I really feel that too, though. I love I love Heero's new ideology.
Mallory 33:21
Yeah. And it it sort of makes sense that he's like being more successful in Epyon like he's learning how to deal with that system. Right? I'm not making that up?
Cathy 33:33
Is he?
Mallory 33:34
Like, I mean,
Cathy 33:35
Is he? [laughs]
Mallory 33:35
he's at least aware that it's happening. And I think we're, I mean, I felt like I was starting to see him figure out how to deal with it in the way that like Zechs was doing where he was like, oh, something's wrong, this isn't the enemy I should be fighting. Where he's able to kind of talk or reason himself out of it, and I felt like maybe Heero was getting to, is maybe starting to possibly get to that point. [laughs]
Cathy 34:08
I'm very excited to hear what you think of that later, Mallory. I'm not going to spoil it for you. But there's a lot about Epyon and Heero and Zero that I'm very excited to get your take on. The only last thing I want to add is, I make fun of Heero a lot these two episodes because he isn't doing much. And the Epyon movements really do look like rollerblading. But I want to call out that at the very end we hear a snippet of Rhythm Emotion.
Cathy 34:36
The second
Caitlin 34:36
Yes!
Caitlin 34:37
Yes!
Cathy 34:37
opening for Gundam Wing
Caitlin 34:39
It's coming, it's coming!!
Cathy 34:40
as Heero continues to mow down these randos. So we've turned over a new leaf on this series, we're getting into Rhythm Emotion. This is the part where I think Gundam Wing just goes buck wild with what peace means and what war means.
Mallory 34:55
Oh has it not already been buckwild? [laughs]
Caitlin 34:57
yeah,
Cathy 34:58
...it gets a little bit more buckwild [laughter]
Caitlin 35:01
I gotta tell you, I heard that song start and I was like, What's this? [insert song] [insert song] Rhythm Emotion! We're here.
Cathy 35:07
Rhythm Emotion! So today's fandom artifact -- I wish I could give you more of a provenance for what it is. But what I really have of it are some translations of what is labeled the Gundam Wing cassette tape collection.
Gundam Wing Cassette Snippet 35:24
せーのー!アニメートウ!ヴォイスカセット新機動戦記ガンダムウイング
Quatre: ALL TOGETHER, THEN –
Everyone: ANIMATE, VOICE CASSETE: NEW MOBILE SUIT GUNDAM WING!
Cathy 35:31
These translations are brought to us courtesy of two different Tumblrs; one is Uchuu no Kokoro (https://uchuunokokoro.tumblr.com/post/149906282779/gw-voice-collection-a-side)l. And the other is When-Will-Mail-Come (https://when-will-mail-come.tumblr.com/post/174154092781/gundam-wing-voice-collection-cassette-book). These appear to be sort of audio drama type things where they had gathered the seiyuus of the Gundam Wing pilots, and had them just do things? So the Uchuu no Kokoro collection, the things that they did were more roleplay ish, tiny mini scenarios where they were acting out AUs basically.
Cathy 36:08
The ones that I assigned you guys to read, these were like, each of the pilots were tasked with doing voicemails, or morning wake up calls.
Gundam Wing Cassette Snippet 36:18
[happy morning music with strings plays] おはよう。こちらヒーロユイ。起きろ。時間だ。
Good morning. This is Heero Yuy. Wake up, it’s time.
Cathy 36:21
[volume on Heero lowers, he keeps talking] It's not canonical, but it's also not so non canonical in terms of what they talk about and how they interact. So I'm just gonna open it up, we'd love to hear what you guys thought about it.
Mallory 36:34
I've been thinking of it as extra canonical, but still in character.
Caitlin 36:39
Right? I was just gonna say they're really well characterized and the translator's notes for the one with the voicemails, the one that we we all read, notes, Oh, there are some things about characterization here that foreshadow aspects of Frozen Teardrop and
Kat 36:55
No thanks.
Caitlin 36:55
I don't think that's a deliberate foreshadowing, I think that that is simply they are well characterized in these joke audio plays, which I don't find the provenance too mysterious, I don't know exactly where they come from. But these are pretty common, extra series type things to do.
Kat 37:13
And can you explain this as like a fan item, like are the voicemails and stuff common?
Caitlin 37:19
Oh, I'm nowadays that sort of thing I think would come more as like, like an extra audio thing that you might find that you might get online.
Cathy 37:29
Talking about this as a fan item. I know we had mentioned before character songs, when we talked about the music of Gundam Wing, and the extras that I see in both the first collection, which we didn't read, and then these voicemails are similar to the extra tracks that you might get on a character song CD. So my experience with those usually are that you have a character song and then you have some, like longer tracks where the seiyuu will maybe talk out of character about their experience, but they also have like a radio play, where it's either them or other characters, or just them alone, talking about something that's extra canonical. So that's kind of what I see this being like. So I say that the provenance is mysterious, because I don't know what the cassette tape collection is. I don't know if the only thing that was on here were these audio dramas, or if there was more, but I could see these -- If Gundam Wing was to come out today, I could see these voicemail things being tacked onto the end of the character songs' CD collections, and then that's how you might buy them. Or it would be like a radio thing or broadcast like Caitlin was saying maybe they would have some sort of fan event and then the seiyuus would go and they would do this thing, usually off the cuff which is quite surprising for how in-character everything is.
Kat 38:46
Gundam Wing has like an actual radio drama, though, right? Like an audio drama.
Cathy 38:50
Yes, Blind Target.
Kat 38:52
Yeah. Because when you sent the email, I was like, Ooh, I never managed to get find something like a translation of Blind Target when I was at my peak, but it was not this. So this, to me was like totally surprising as a fan artifact.
Caitlin 39:04
It's funny, it's funny because the audio dramas are something that's often very inaccessible to international fans, partly because they are on a physical media that you have to buy. Fans don't like to share these. There's, in Japanese fandom there's a lot of stigma against like, uploading things illegally. And international fans just often don't have them. There's no visual components to help you understand. So you have to have like a 100% understanding of Japanese...
Mallory 39:33
Oh my god
Caitlin 39:34
...in order to get through it.
Mallory 39:35
Yeah. At my peak Gundam Wing like fandom, I managed to find the, like, audio for something, like one of these audio dramas and just listened to them because they were fun to, to listen to but I didn't understand a single word that was being said. So it would, it will be fun to kind of go back and find this and maybe someone who's translated it somewhere.
Cathy 40:01
[music starts playing, two characters are speaking] I will just say, Duo and Quatre are really funny. Duo is exactly how you would imagine. You know the translator notes say that his womanizing side doesn't really come out as much in the show but it was clearly meant to be part of his character and it really comes out here
Mallory 40:20
His womanizing side [laughs]
Gundam Wing Cassette Snippet 40:28
Duo: ええ?体が動かない? 何や甘えてるんだよ。そんなこと言ってると添い寝しちゃうぜ。ほらほら起きた起きた!
Ahh? You can’t get up? Whaddaya sayin’? Keep on saying that and I won’t be able to resist snuggling with you–Ahh, that’s it! You’ve done it!
Mallory 40:29
[Duo continues speaking but fades out] I was like, Oh, this audio drama is written like all the crack fic that I have exed out of. But it's fun because I can hear like the voice actors' characterizations.
Kat 40:44
Honestly, this is characterized like so many crack fics I read though too
Caitlin 40:48
Yes
Kat 40:49
like this sort of exaggeration, and like the third [Ed.'s note: fourth] wall meta breaks.
Cathy 40:53
I love when Wufei gives his love call
Gundam Wing Cassette Snippet 40:57
[romantic piano music] Wufei: だからお前にはっきり言う。一度しか言わないからな。俺はお前が好き。
Wufei: That’s why I’m going to tell you clearly how I feel. I’m only going to say this once… I love you.
Cathy 41:01
And then all the pilots are noted as whispering about it. That felt extremely fanfic-y. yes
Gundam Wing Cassette Snippet 41:16
[whispering]
Quatre: ねえ、ねえ、ねえ!
Duo: なに?
Quatre: 聞いた?ナタクのことだよね。
Duo: そうだね。ラブコールを私物化するほど思ってたとわな
Heero: 愛には色々形がある。これもカミングアウトとかいうのか
QUATRE: [WHISPERING] Hey, Duo, Duo, Duo?
Duo: [WHISPERING] What, what?
Quatre: [WHISPERING] This is, probably, about Nataku right?
Duo: [WHISPERING] Yeah, possibly. But to go out all the way to make a love call personal…
Trowa: [HUSHED] There are many forms of love.
Heero: [HUSHED]…Is this also what’s considered as “coming out”?
Caitlin 41:21
It's so rude because Wufei's the only one of them who has canonically been with a woman [laughter]
Kat 41:26
It's true, probably, it's true.
Mallory 41:28
I would think that Duo in this characterization isn't going to count Wufei's past.
Caitlin 41:35
Wufei's arranged marriage? Yeah.
Mallory 41:37
Because that's an arranged marriage. And it's not Wufei like seducing a woman like Duo is clearly trying to do
Kat 41:43
Trying to pretend like he knows how to do.
Mallory 41:44
Yeah [laughs]
Cathy 41:47
The showering, the showering one [laughs]
Caitlin 41:49
Yes, I love that. Yeah, wouldn’t that work?
Gundam Wing Cassette Snippet 41:54
[shower noises] Duo: はい、デゥオマクスウェルです。ちょうど今、シャワー中でさあ、一緒に入れればいいんだけど、そういうわけにもいけないだろう。
Yep, this is Duo Maxwell here. I’m actually showering right now, and I’d love it if you could join me here but that isn’t going to happen, is it?
Mallory 41:59
I love Duo being like, it's all fanservice and you know fanservice? [laughter] just in case you didn't know?
Caitlin 42:05
Can I also add that I love Trowa in this [laughs]? And he's like a mysterious poet. Like he just says like, such like weird things.
Mallory 42:17
He's so weird.
Kat 42:18
I like that Quatre and Trowa are in love or flirting with each other and trying to figure out that they’re in love.
Caitlin 42:23
Yeah it comes up a lot
Gundam Wing Cassette Snippet 42:32
Quatre: きゃああ、いいな、いいな。なんだか、トロワの優しさを感じるなあ
Trowa: いや、カトルに比べたら、大したことはない。
Quatre: Wow… That was good, really good. What is it, I could feel Trowa’s kindness.
Trowa: Nonsense, compared to Quatre it was nothing.
Mallory 42:35
Quatre's definitely like, well, I think it's indicative of Trowa's kindness, heart eyes [laughter] blink blink, you know?
Caitlin 42:43
They're so annoying. I do not want to know them. I also love the Wake Up Calls, I kind of want to record the Wake Up Calls and put them up as my alarms. I want Trowa's wake up call where he's like, it's fine if you don't wake up.
Gundam Wing Cassette Snippet 42:57
Trowa: 朝。一日の始まり。だが、朝だから必ず起きなければいけないというわけではない。昼に起きよう、夜に起きよう、個人の勝手だ。俺に強制することができない
Morning… the beginning of a whole day. However… It doesn’t mean that you have to wake up just because it’s morning. Whether you wake up at noon or night is none of my concern. I can’t force you.
Caitlin 43:12
Just like the contrast between the tone of this and the tone of the series. Where like you you sort of need to have this extra canonical like fun goofy character times in order to balance out the like, really depressing series.
Kat 43:27
I wish Quatre was a shady bitch in canon.
Caitlin 43:30
Wait can we, can we discuss -- I know that this wasn't, this wasn't assigned, but in the in the other plotline. There's a subplot about them all thinking Quatre is a girl?
Mallory & Kat 43:42
Yes!
Caitlin 43:43
And it is like this is like some weird gender shit. Where, where like Heero's like, I looked at the files and all of all of Quatre's siblings are women and so he's probably a woman posed as a boy.
Kat 43:57
No, it's just it's really funny 'cause Duo at one point is like oh, you know, like in manga, where families have lots of girls and then they won't stop trying, [laughter] so they just make their last one grow up as a boy,
Mallory 44:11
Which then brings up the question, does manga exist in the Gundam Wing universe?
Cathy 44:17
Duo definitely reads manga, like this is, it's not even a question. Like if you go if you go into the Deathscythe cockpit [laughter] there is like a floating issue of Shonen Jump somewhere [laughs]
Caitlin 44:27
Look, it is a universal idea that asshole American guys who think they're good with women will read like a bunch of manga okay.
Kat 44:38
Oh, ouch.
Mallory 44:39
Okay.
Caitlin 44:39
Like I feel like every like that happens in every universe.
Kat 44:44
I was thinking about those society for like character purity groups and stuff. When I got to the part where Trowa asks Duo what host club he learned all this from?
Mallory 44:57
Yes!
Gundam Wing Cassette Snippet 44:57
Trowa: 一体どこのホストクラブにみにつけたんだ。
Duo: あほか?なんのとこにはたらけるのか。
Quatre: あのう、ホストクラブって。
(Translation from
Trowa: In what host club did you learn all that?
Duo: ARE YOU STUPID!? As if I would even work there!
Quatre: Uh, what’s a “host club”?
Cathy 45:06
And then Quatre asks what a host club is and then nobody wants to tell him. [;aughs]
Mallory 45:11
Everyone's like, Oh honey.
Caitlin 45:14
Oh my god and Quatre has the line about having a fax machine in their house and everybody's like wow rich people really live different. [laughter]
Kat 45:21
I love that Duo hates rich people.
Caitlin 45:22
And then the translator and then the translator is like, oh wow fax, it's a real blast from the past. But fax machines are still really common in Japan. [laughs]
Mallory 45:32
I love where after Heero's encouragement message and Quatre tells him like, Oh, that was really good. You're always,"I'll self destruct!”
Gundam Wing Cassette Snippet 45:42
Quatre: うんうん、すごくよかったよ。「自爆する」や「お前を殺す」だけじゃないんだね Mh-hm, it was really good! You’re always “I’ll self-destruct”, no, “I’ll kill you” but that’s not all there is to you, was it!
Mallory 45:48
Then Heero's like, are you complimenting me or making fun of me. And I love that, I am here for everyone making fun of Heero self-destructing.
Caitlin 45:57
And Quatre, Quatre is canonically shady as hell but I don't know where that impression comes from. Like, like, I've always accepted that as my canon. And a lot of fanfics also picked up on it. Just something about him is clear that he is going to like, kill you with kindness. And then also like, talk shit about you. Yeah.
Kat 46:20
So I guess I have a question, sort of like is stuff like the morning call and like voicemail messages like is that kind of normal fandom meta, because it really feels a lot like reader fic, to me, like listening to it. And I know that's not like a new thing. But it's sort of like a newish trend currently happening on AO3, so.
Caitlin 46:41
I don't think that's too unusual. The voicemail message, I think that's pretty common.
Kat 46:45
Okay.
Caitlin 46:46
Now it's, it's, it's common to have, for example, you have like that one, it's an alarm clock/smart home device. And it ties in with an app and she's a girl, you can get a bunch of anime girl versions. And she like, wakes you up in the morning. And she sends you encouraging text messages while you're at work. And she asks you what you want for dinner, that sort of thing. It's like you pretend to have a girlfriend in your house. This is a version of that concept. Even though that's a much more modern, technological edition.
Cathy 47:20
I was really into The King's Avatar, which is a web novel, a Chinese webnovel about e-sports players actually. And they for like Lunar. Lunar New Year and stuff would record essentially messages to you like wishing you a Happy Lunar New Year and hoping that you go see your parents. And then it's also quite common for there to be Valentine's Day content or Singles Day content where they're like presenting chocolate to you, or you're giving them chocolate and they're you know, saying something, whatever is in character. So similar roleplay where essentially they're responding to the reader or listener or watcher insert, as if they were your boyfriend, is still pretty common.
Kat 48:04
So this is all sort of new ish to me, but like this blast one the past cassette tape, it was cool.
Caitlin 48:11
Yeah, I just wonder how you get, I guess what the voicemail you could literally put the voice, you could literally record the voicemail message onto your thing. Yeah, if you wanted to. But how do you get an alarm clock to play? I mean, did they make alarm clocks that could record sound?
Kat 48:28
Probably ones that you could put a tape into?
Cathy 48:31
Yeah, there probably were ones where you could queue up the tape and then have it play.
Caitlin 48:35
That's nice. [Just Communication begins to play]
Cathy 48:35
That morning wake up call. Well, this is Cathy, this has been Untitled Tallgeese Podcast, thanks a bunch!
Mallory 48:49
Tell us what you thought of these episodes. You can find us on Twitter at Tallgeesepod. We also have full transcriptions on our Tumblr, UntitledTallgeesePodcast.tumblr.com. And follow us on Instagram at UntitledTallgeesePodcast for fandom artifacts, sneak peeks and more. Until next time!
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We discussed sections of these Gundam Wing cassette tapes in episode 18 of our podcast Untitled Tallgeese Podcast as our fandom artifact. Thanks to all fan translations and archivists whose work means we can look back on materials like this.
Gundam Wing Voice Collection (Cassette Book) G-Team part
Continuation of @uchuunokokoro‘s Gundam Wing Casette Tape Collection
http://uchuunokokoro.tumblr.com/post/149906282779/gw-voice-collection-a-side
http://uchuunokokoro.tumblr.com/post/150052812304/gw-voice-collection-a-side
http://uchuunokokoro.tumblr.com/post/150612859919/gw-voice-collection-b-side
This
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Dedicated to @gundamwing-ellesmith
As always, Duo is exasperated, and it’s up for him and Quatre to keep the show running smoothly. Awkwardness between the pilots still remain, but the two do their best. I was actually really surprised at the awkward pauses that the script writers put in (good characterization). You can see that they’re not completely buddy-buddy with each other.
I cringed in second hand embarrassment the most when translating Duo’s lines, and had the most difficulty with Trowa’s. Since Trowa’s distinctive lack of unity and coherence in his dialogue makes his messages sound like poems, commenters on Nico Nico have said that he sounds like Snufkin from Moomin.
Wufei, as always, is treated as a joke. Even the other pilots don’t take him seriously. In the other cassette this applies to Heero too (teased relentlessly).
Heero appears to be more of a “boy who didn’t manage to kill adolescence completely”, with all the embarrassment and standoffishness of a normal teenager.
Duo’s womanizing tendencies come out in the open. This tells you a lot about how he was characterized by the creators. Furthermore, like Quatre points out, Duo is implied to be the type that isn’t good at holding down steady, long term relationships that need commitment. Showering their lover with superficial praises and flirting is what he can do, but when push comes to shove he can’t be there emotionally for his lover (possibly clamming up and avoiding the issue). The consequences of this negative characteristic of not being held down by anyone, and his tendency of falling for girls too easily is explored in Frozen Teardrop.
Many Nico Nico users also saw the shadows of what would lead to Frozen Teardrop Quatre in this and the other cassette. Even though Quatre is mostly polite and sociable in these, you can see here and there that he intentionally takes a dig at the other members around him, then uses his personality to deflect any criticism (like “Oh silly, what are you talking about?”). He’s either feigning ignorance, or he really doesn’t realize that he’s naturally acrimonious (maybe due nobody ever calling him out on it, with his coddled upbringing). Also, his constant “Oh, [character name]” can be interpreted as condescending. Maybe he does look down on them unconsciously.
Fax. Oh, what a blast from the past.
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We discussed sections of these Gundam Wing cassette tapes in episode 18 of our podcast Untitled Tallgeese Podcast as our fandom artifact. Thanks to all fan translations and archivists whose work means we can look back on materials like this.
Note: their audio link is down (now leads to an adult website, fair warning); the translations are still there under the Read More!
GW Voice Collection [A-side]
Part 1 of the 60-minute GW voice collection cassette that was released a loooong time ago. This is such a gem and a must-listen for GW fans.
WARNING: 60 minutes of pure crack.
[ AUDIO LINK ]
This is the first 20 minutes of the A-side. Cassette tapes are so nostalgic, lol.
BTW, thanks to the anon who shared this!
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Puff magazine, October 1995
Fandom artifact for episode 17, Untitled Tallgeese Podcast.
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[TRANSCRIPT] EPISODE 17: DIAL EPYON CLUB
Caitlin 00:00
Hello and welcome to Untitled Tallgeese Podcast, Episode 17. I'm Caitlin and I'm here with Kat, Cathy, and Mallory.
Caitlin 00:04
Today we'll be discussing episodes 33 and 34. In Episode 33, The Lonely Battlefield, Quatre plays the piano. What can't he do? He's playing a sad song while thinking of his missing boyfriend. Our namesake the Tallgeese is fighting dudes in space. Everyone is like whoa at Tallgeese's sick moves against the Romefeller mobile dolls. Surprise, Zechs has been collaborating with an invisible spaceship run by Howard, Duo's friend, an old man you might remember if you've been paying attention to the old men. The old men of Romefeller, Dermail and Tsuberov, meanwhile, are shocked that pacifism still exists even though OZ has cool mobile dolls. Back in the boarding school subplot, Relena bothers Heero while he's trying to read a book, and Dorothy invites Relena to a meeting with the Romefeller people to chit chat about peace. Definitely not a trap. Relena asks Heero not to leave without telling her but Heero immediately fucks off the fight mobile dolls in Luxenberg where OZ's dropping a force to take out the remaining Treize Faction. Dermail confronts Relena with Zechs return to battle as a sign of Sanc Kingdom hypocrisy. Without missing a beat, Relena goes full Mariah Carey "I don't know her" dot gif, and disowns Zechs. Zechs destroys a lot of mobile dolls headed to Luxembourg and Heero prepares to get the others. But then! A group of mobile dolls attacks Relena and Pagan on the road home. Noin and Quatre come to their rescue. Heero fights mobile dolls in his cool fancy school necktie and a voice from the darkness tells him not to die. It's God! I mean, Treize.
Caitlin 00:16
In Episode 34, And Its Name is Epyon, Treize Faction gets its shit together to help Heero. A dying soldier tells Heero to look after Treize, which leads Heero to exploring Treize's secret bunker. They have an intense philosophical conversation at gunpoint, Heero is mildly suicidal, and Treize takes out a book to help him through the tough times. Wow! Call back to Heero reading from last episode. Actually, the book holds a card key to Treize's double secret bunker where he keeps his new mobile suit.
Caitlin 01:50
Meanwhile, in space Oz is trying to destroy Wing Zero -- best idea they've had in a while. But then Zechs and Howard come in because they want Wing Zero. Zechs sacrifices our beloved Tallgeese to get Wing Zero. RIP Tallgeese, insert funeral music here. Back in Luxembourg, Treize introduces Heero to his new friend. His name is Epyon -- title of episode! Treize tells Heero that Epyon can clear up his philosophical confusion. He helpfully disables the self destruct so Heero won't kill himself. Heero rejoins the battle in Epyon, which is sexy and has a whip and something like a transforming flying cat mode. It's good at destroying things, but of course the godlike system Treize talked about is the same as the Zero System. Heero goes full crazytown murderino. We close with an enigmatic scene of Heero passing out at Treize's feet.
Caitlin 03:07
Okay, there is a lot of conversation, which we will get to. I wanted to start out saying Tallgeese is gone, you guys.
Cathy 03:15
I know. We need to end the podcast. That's it. Sorry everyone. [laughter]
Kat 03:19
We're wrapping it up.
Caitlin 03:20
I mean it's sad because we named this podcast, Untitled Tallgeese Podcast as a joke, 'cause Tallgeese has the word geese in it.
Cathy 03:31
That's it, that's the whole joke. [laughter]
Caitlin 03:33
But actually, now that we have been calling it this this whole time, I feel like a really deep bond with the Tallgeese.
Cathy 03:41
I know and I do love it because it's like a predecessor prototype. It's clearly janky, right? But Zechs really loves it and I feel like that just speaks volumes to me.
Caitlin 03:54
It kills like half the people who use it or something, like Zechs' soldiers sacrificed himself using it and all that, all this shit, it's janky—
Kat 04:02
It's old, and I feel old.
Caitlin 04:05
Yeah, it's and it's it's not as cool as the Gundams. And Zechs is willing to just throw it aside to get the Wing Zero, a system which sucks. [laughter]
Kat 04:17
Wow.
Caitlin 04:18
Like, Wing Zero looks cool, but it objectively is the worst.
Cathy 04:22
But it's in the two episode, you know, one-two punch of introducing the new hotness: Epyon.
Kat 04:30
I love that Epyon got a little magical girl transformation sequence or at least the end of it where you're showing off your new outfit. When he went out to fight in the Epyon got to show off a little whip, got backlit, it's very—
Cathy 04:43
Yes.
Caitlin 04:45
Epyon does so many things that I don't really understand it. Like what did I just call it, a transforming flying cat? It's sort of like gryphon-like. It's got a whip. Maybe it's a scorpion.
Mallory 04:59
I mean, I thought it looks like a weird dragon thing, like its whip was a tail. It doesn't really make sense to me but I think it looks cool flying around, which I think is the point of gun-- like a Gundam right?
Caitlin 05:11
Did Treize design it himself? That might be a question we could wonder about [laughter]
Kat 05:16
That, I was wondering like, does he have a cadre of engineers to bully around in his exile mansion? Not really sure what's going on?
Caitlin 05:25
Oh yeah -- maybe like every Treize faction guy got to contribute one concept. [laughter]
Kat 05:32
An exquisite corpse of a Gundam?
Cathy 05:34
Is Epyon a Gundam proper?
Caitlin 05:38
Its title is OZ-13 MS Gundam Epyon.
Cathy 05:44
Oh, so it's a Gundam. It's an official Gundam.
Caitlin 05:46
I'm guessing that means it's made out of Gundanium.
Mallory 05:49
So but where did Treize get all this Gundanium --
Cathy 05:52
Yes [inaudible] [laughs]
Mallory 05:53
-- for this like in his exile mansion? Do you think Romefeller's just letting him like Amazon Prime packages of Gundanium every week? [laughter] That's just kind of what I'm picturing.
Kat 06:05
cuz it was a big deal with Zechs, like part of the scheme --
Mallory 06:09
Yes.
Kat 06:09
of Zechs getting all that fucking Gundanium.
Caitlin 06:11
He's definitely in like the most like, fancy white collar prison. [laughs] You can basically get whatever he wants. Cathy hates Epyon, right?
Cathy 06:20
I hate Epyon. I hate Epyon.
Caitlin 06:22
Do we want to start a fight?
Cathy 06:23
No
Caitlin 06:24
Is it time for our, Is it time for episode-ly debates
Cathy 06:27
Cathy has a fight? no. Because the reason why I hate Epyon has not yet been made canon in these episodes, so I cannot say but I will just put it out there, I am an Epyon hater.
Kat 06:38
Well, it seems like yet another monument to Treize's hubris.
Mallory 06:41
Yeah.
Kat 06:42
So in that sense, I don't love it.
Caitlin 06:45
Well, I don't, I don't like it either. The whole thing is stupid. Heero getting into this, into this Gundam that Treize just promises him will provide him like, a clear philosophical path.
Cathy 06:56
Yeah, I -- not to skip ahead or anything but I do love that Treize is just like, I have a guide to help you learn how to live your life. Surprise! It's a killer robot. [laughter] And then Heero is just like yeah, I'm gonna get in that robot. That sounds like a great idea.
Mallory 07:11
Yeah.
Cathy 07:12
Why have you learned nothing?
Caitlin 07:15
Yeah, Heero, Heero piloted the other Zero System Gundam.
Kat 07:21
I mean, he thinks that—
Mallory 07:22
like, what did you expect, man? You got into a Gundam made by Treize.
Caitlin 07:27
Well, this gets into some of my like -- So obviously, there's a lot of chitchat, a lot of of gab— gabbing. [laugh] In this episode, by which I mean Treize makes like long, longass speeches to Heero while Heero's like, I don't believe in God. [laughs] But I was thinking about like, Treize's whole thing is that he keeps, he says to Heero, this will provide you clarity. You don't really, you don't really know who your enemies are but this will show you. And that was the whole deal with the Zero System in general is that it clarifies who the enemies are. And I think like, just thinking about that, I think a lot of the what the show is trying to say is that if you are going into battle with too much clarity about your enemies, about what you have to do, it blinds you to like the real motivations behind what's going on, it blinds you to the humanity of your enemies. Because while Heero is fighting, and while he's realizing it's the same as the Zero System, he's looking at the people that he's fighting, and he's thinking, Oh, this is just, I don't have to fight him. But the system wants him to fight him, fight those guys.
Kat 08:44
Right, he initially goes like, I don't want to fight them because they've just been ordered to fight. And then the Treize Faction inexplicably sort of attacks him? Which I guess is like a clever writing, like cheat, so you don't have to feel bad about them when Heero loses sight, and thinks of them all as being the same and kills them, even though he's supposedly more on the Treize Faction side.
Mallory 09:08
Yeah, but Heero is always like, it's already been established, that Heero believes his enemy is whoever is in front of him trying to kill him. So it sort of makes sense that when he's in a Zero System Gundam, if someone, anyone shoots at him, he's automatically gonna merc them because the Zero System is going to kind of take that to its ultimate extreme, even though he knows rationally that the soldiers are fighting on his side or on his behalf.
Caitlin 09:37
Or that they're just following orders.
Mallory 09:39
Right
Caitlin 09:39
And they don't necessarily deserve to die.
Cathy 09:42
Yeah, like among all the jibberish that Treize says in this episode, right, the only line that made a lot of sense to me was, "if anyone who is against you is your enemy, then your fight will never stop." Because
Caitlin 09:55
Yeah
Cathy 09:55
basically what he's saying is that it cannot be that you just think of peace as an outcome when fighting ends, right? It can't just be that peace is the absence of fighting, there must be something more to what you're trying to achieve than no more fighting, that has to be something else. And so it can't just be you have these two opposites: person who attacked me - enemy. You have to like be thinking above that. And I guess in some way this feeds into this end line he delivers to Heero where he's like, You mustn't be a winner, you know, Epyon isn't a weapon. I hope you return a loser. And I was like, I don't even know what this means Treize. But I think what you're saying is like Heero, you don't actually know what it is to be like a winner and a loser. Like this isn't about winning and losing. This is about having something to fight for.
Kat 10:45
I was really curious when Treize is talking about how he has no future. And Epyon showed him that he had no future. And does that mean that he doesn't see any enemies for himself or he's consumed by enemies? Like I was kind of wondering, like what exactly Epyon showed him when we're, when we're talking about this clarity of focus and focus on who you're actually fighting against, or what you're fighting for.
Caitlin 11:14
I do want to know what Epyon showed Treize, my my feeling is that that line is Treize stating that in order to bring about the world that he wants to bring about he will die.
Cathy 11:26
Yeah.
Caitlin 11:27
He's just not part of the new world that he wants to bring about.
Cathy 11:31
That's what I also took it to mean that when he says that he didn't see a future he really means I am foreseeing death. I mean, he has a line in here like, my battle is over, but I haven't found a reason to fight. So I guess maybe he also really hasn't ironed out exactly how he fits into the whole world. But again, I-I really struggled to make heads or tails out of a lot of what Treize is saying in this episode. Maybe if I was Heero and Treize started just blabbing at me I too would get into a killer robot just to end his conversation. [laughter] Because so much of this episode just like made my head hurt. I don't know if that was just me.
Caitlin 12:09
Do we want to talk about the potential of 13x1?
Cathy 12:12
Oh, gosh.
Kat 12:14
Yeah, this is so romantic right he's just talking about how his destiny is intertwined and like meeting Heero is the best thing that's ever happened to him in his life. He couldn't die without meeting specifically Heero.
Mallory 12:27
He says, "My greatest happiness in life was talking with you. And now I understand my own death must coincide with yours. Now that we've met each other let's meet God." like that's a pretty strong come on let's, let's be real he programmed—
Cathy 12:44
Yes. [laughs]
Mallory 12:45
Heero's handprint into his exile castle.
Kat 12:49
Years before, like before this. Like have they even met? [crosstalk]
Caitlin 12:53
He's very like, come and kill me Heero. He's like the, he's like grown up man Relena.
Cathy 12:59
Yes, that's actually
Caitlin 13:00
Come and kill me!
Cathy 13:01
that's actually exactly what I was going to say, like he is grown up man Relena. Like this is the first season's Relena only in a grown man's body. And like it's crazed right? Like it's it's the equivalent of like, you know in manga sometimes, with like, a horror manga where you enter a room and it's covered in pictures of you? like that's that's what it is.
Kat 13:24
Yes!
Caitlin 13:24
yes!
Mallory 13:24
And then this like man who's been trying to kill you this whole time? It's like I welcome you with my heart, dear messenger of peace, like?
Caitlin 13:32
Love that for them [laughter]
Kat 13:33
Romantic.
Caitlin 13:35
I was thinking -- I made a little shout out to this in the summary but there's a scene, there's the scene in the in Episode 33 where Heero's just sitting reading a book and Relena comes over and talks to him for like a whole half hour. [laughs] She makes this whole speech about him and he's just like sitting there reading his book. Treize basically does the exact same thing. Everybody just likes to make speeches at Heero. I would, I'd grab that Gundam and fuck off too, [laughter] like I'd be like goodbye!
Kat 14:08
Treize has such an internal idea of who Heero is too and that's so weird. Like he's like built up this mental image of Heero just like Relena has.
Cathy 14:20
Well, he should get in line because everybody in this series does. I'm starting to feel really bad for Heero.
Kat 14:26
Yeah, but he's like I never thought you'd be feeling tired of battle. But Heero also really has a lot of expectations with Treize too.
Caitlin 14:36
Doesn't Zechs get priority over Treize? I feel like the line was Relena, [laughter] maybe Duo, and then Zechs, and then Treize.
Cathy 14:45
And Trowa! Trowa has seniority over all of them. He's dead and like floating somewhere.
Caitlin 14:52
Oh that's true, Trowa's dead somewhere—
Cathy 14:53
Shouldn't he jumped the line? [laughter]
Caitlin 14:56
We also have one line that we wanted to talk about, which is that Treize mentions God and Heero's like, "I don't believe in God." So is there religion in Gundam Wing universe?
Kat 15:07
Yeah, I think it was the first time that anyone has mentioned God.
Caitlin 15:11
I was thinking about this because of the trope, the old trope in fanfic, I was discussing with people of Quatre saying, "Oh, Allah!" instead of "oh God" in fanfic.
Kat & Mallory 15:24
Ooooh.
Caitlin 15:26
Quatre has literally never mentioned religion, or God, as far as I can recall. Like, there's no suggestion that him being Middle Eastern means that he's also a Muslim. It's just like, I don't I don't know if this, this exists in the Gundam Wing universe outside of Treize being like, what is, what does he say?
Kat 15:46
"Let's put ourselves in God's hands." And I think then Heero says, "Yeah, I don't believe in God." And I was surprised that he said, don't believe in God, I don't believe in God as a response because the first -- Like Treize's sentence feels more like a figure of speech? So for Heero to push back with, like, a real literal, like, I don't believe in God, means that maybe there is a God to not believe in, in the Gundam Wing universe in the sense like there is a religion. And I mean, Duo has his whole Catholic background.
Caitlin 16:19
Right. We also know about the Father Maxwell's church being destroyed.
Kat 16:26
Well, didn't Wufei always used to say, "oh, Gods."
Cathy 16:28
Yeah, so that was what I was thinking, right? Because in fic, we had this issue where a lot of characters was saying, were saying, "oh, gods" with a plural, implying some sort of like multiplicities of gods.
Caitlin 16:40
Wasn't our theory for this just that a lot of fic writers in the late night 90s
Cathy 16:44
were Wiccan?
Caitlin 16:44
were like, were Wiccan.
Cathy 16:45
Yeah
Caitlin 16:46
And that, that they were, they were trying to brainwash us.
Kat 16:48
Yeah, but I think they gave -- I think sometimes when Wufei was saying it, there was some kind of like, implication there. If you have -- like, in a similar way, that like Quatre would say, "Oh Allah."
Cathy 17:01
Yeah.
Caitlin 17:02
Well, Nataku is a mythological reference.
Kat 17:06
Yeah.
Caitlin 17:06
It's a reference to a god. So
Cathy 17:09
yeah, but speaking as a Chinese person, if I was to say something that's like close to Oh, God, what I would say something closer to like "heavens," like "tiān a" (天啊) like that, that really means just like heaven. So coming to this, I bring a lot of like, clearly like Christian overtones to it. So like, when Treize says, God, I'm thinking, like Christian God, but I am kind of curious what they think, what the writers intended for that to be in the Gundam universe. 'cause that's clearly my interpretation.
Caitlin 17:36
I think Treize is like Western humanism, not necessarily a religious form of God, but that, like the concept of like, a deity of some sort. Like he's so he's probably just using God, like Kat said
Kat 17:50
So he's a deist, but not necessarily like,
Cathy 17:52
yeah,
Kat 17:52
a Christian
Caitlin 17:53
Like he probably means it sort of metaphorically. But also I'm sure that if pressed, he'd be like, "Yes, I believe in God, and I am God." [laughter]
Cathy 18:01
And I am God!
Caitlin 18:02
You know?
Kat 18:02
Because Treize is Hannibal
Cathy 18:04
Treize is Hannibal! [laughs]
Kat 18:06
Well, so that was sort of interesting for him to say, let's put it in God's hands when he's previously put himself in the place of God in the Gundam Wing universe right?
Mallory 18:14
Yeah, and saying let's meet God implies that he can die and he can meet a higher being than him. Which I guess is indicative of like, a shift in the way that Treize views himself?
Kat 18:27
Yeah, I mean, that makes sense, since he's really talking about how there's no place for him now that he has no power. When Heero was like you once had the power to change history. You could just do what you did then, like why don't, why don't you. Treize is like Wah, this robot told me I had no future
Caitlin 18:45
"I biffed it guys" [laughter]
Mallory 18:50
I really liked how Treize tells Heero at the end, like, I don't want you to die until you've killed me. I'm disarming the self detonation device in Epyon because he knows Heero. And that's really romantic.
Caitlin 19:03
Yeah, that's brutal. That's probably why Heero took the mobile suit was 'cause he wanted to self-destruct. [laughter] Which, Heero was probably like, Alright, it's time. [laughter]
Mallory 19:12
"Aw shit." [snap] "Dammit, you saw right through me!"
Cathy 19:17
I do want to say in my experience, Treize/Heero, so 13x1 or 1x13 was not a very popular ship.
Kat 19:24
I agree.
Cathy 19:25
I can't recall any instance of it happening outside of like maybe a crack reference here or there, but was curious of other people's opinions.
Caitlin 19:37
Well, so I, that's also my experience and also we haven't discussed this yet, but a lot of people in Western fandom really hated Treize. And Cathy sent us this ridiculous website where Treize is codenamed "door" and it's all about how much they hate door.
Kat 19:55
Oh my god I remember this.
Caitlin 19:56
Yeah.
Kat 19:57
Holy shit.
Mallory 19:58
Oh my god.
Kat 19:58
You just opened up like seven rooms in my brain
Caitlin 20:01
like I hated Treize too as a child. Now, now I'm like oh, he's big, Heero's small, I'd read that. [laughter]
Kat 20:09
I think um, I definitely saw it but only in like threesomes, like 13x6x1. But it's more often, like definitely way more often 13x6x5 in some kind of
Caitlin 20:23
Yeah
Kat 20:24
situation and I guess my my theory is that a lot of people in Western fandom did not make it all the way through the show, to this episode because of possible access reasons or whatever. And how we talked
Caitlin 20:38
that's true
Kat 20:38
about in our earlier episodes about how fanon sort of solidified really around the very beginning of the show.
Caitlin 20:45
Yeah, so you watch the first three episodes—
Kat 20:46
But that's no excuse!
Caitlin 20:47
You watch the first three episodes and then you stick with those pairings for the rest of your life. Though also I will say this, which is that the other night I was looking for -- I wanted to see if anybody had written something like a 2x5 manifesto like, you know how people used to write like ship manifestos.
Cathy 21:03
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
Caitlin 21:03
And I found a couple a couple of essays, but one of them suggested that like, it was like a pro Wufei essay. And at the bottom, there was a thing about it ships. And it said that 2x5 is not that popular compared to 1x5 and 3x5, which I've literally never seen.
Cathy 21:20
3x5?
Kat 21:22
Whoa.
Caitlin 21:22
Yeah. And I was like, That's really weird. Is that a typo? Maybe it's a typo for 13x5. 'Cause it -- but it had a separate section for 13x5, and I I've not seen that much 3x5. And this this person claiming that 2x5 was not a popular Wufei pairing is kind -- was kind of shocking to me, because I thought it was like second after 13x5. So sometimes our perceptions of fandom are just totally wrong.
Mallory 21:48
Caitlin at one point we were, we were talking about the sort of implications of 1x3 specifically and you said something like, you know, when we're young, we tend to ship the pairs that we see will last forever. Like we, we tend to want to see pairings that we can imagine will be like the everlasting love like 3x4 or 1x2, where these, these characters sort of fit like puzzle pieces and now that we're older we're more I guess more able to appreciate the more casual pairings or casual ships
Kat 22:24
a disastrous fling
Mallory 22:25
Yeah, the the unwise hookup
Caitlin 22:26
Right, yeah.
Caitlin 22:29
And it's also so clear from Treize's speech in this episode that he's just like, holding up that death flag. [laughter]
Cathy 22:37
Yeah, yeah.
Caitlin 22:38
I think that was a big barrier to shipping him for me as a child because it was like clear that he's like, he's gonna die, he's gonna have to die.
Cathy 22:46
Well, he's gonna kick the bucket, like this is like, "I have I have final stage of space tuberculosis" moment.
Caitlin 22:52
Treize would be so hot if he had space tuberculosis [laughs].
Kat 22:56
That would really give his character a little somethin' somethin'.
Mallory 22:59
Yeah, just a little extra tragedy to go with the hubris
Caitlin 23:03
And then he and Quatre meet in the space tuberculosis sanitarium [laughter]
Kat 23:09
Amazing segue!
Caitlin 23:11
Speaking, speaking of people who are very small: Quatre.
Kat 23:15
I really like Quatre in these episodes, but I especially like his, his newfound friendship with Noin?
Cathy 23:22
Yeah.
Kat 23:22
They get a good little moment at the beginning were Quatre's playing his sad music,
Mallory 23:27
His sad mourning song for Trowa.
Caitlin 23:29
Yeah!
Kat 23:29
And this is like, these episodes have their second team up in mobile suits.
Mallory 23:33
Oh, yeah, they do fight with each other.
Kat 23:35
Yeah, it's like Team goggles because, [laughter] they both have goggles sorry.
Caitlin 23:38
Yeah, they have the goggles, they're so cute. It's it's truly a lesbian/gay man solidarity.
Cathy 23:44
Yes. I, like, ship it. I like ship it but I also definitely speaking of disastrous hookups, like this feels like a disastrous hookup relationship. Like, we're just like, we're clearly both mourning. Like, I think Noin is still in the craterous aftermath of her like huge honkin crush on Zechs, which sadly, she never gets over. But this is very much like I'm mourning the fact that I'm separated from Zechs. Quatre of course is like, you know, Heero's like, you have to like stay around to make sure that Trowa gets rescued and like, so there's a lot of grief and like, you know, trying to hold on, and this is definitely like if I was to make them bang that would be what would be going on here.
Caitlin 24:26
Yes, Noin takes Quatre virginity and it's very awkward [laughter] and they're very sad the whole time. That's what I want. That's what I want from my fanfiction that I read for fun! [laughter]
Mallory 24:36
Oh my god. And then after, for forevermore, they can never look at each other in the eye.
Caitlin 24:42
I love to come home from a long day of work at the office and read a relaxing fanfic where people who don't like each other have awkward sex. [laughter]
Cathy 24:54
Which is really which is really funny because
Kat 24:57
"Oh, I'm gay. Ooooh." [laughter]
Cathy 25:02
I've, like reacted so strongly to this, but I'm also a huge Quatre/Dorothy shipper. And so like it has exact same feeling which is like a very lesbian coded character that I'm shipping with a very gay coded character, who like I clearly don't think that they're supposed to get together. But I'd be really into it for the Sanc Kingdom, the Sanc Kingdom just make, I feel the Sanc Kingdom is very, like heterosexual in a very specific way.
Kat 25:28
Oh is it the color coding of the uniforms?
Caitlin 25:30
Yeah, all the girls wear their pink dresses. All the men have their ascots. Like whatever those things are.
Mallory 25:38
Those waistcoats.
Cathy 25:39
And it just makes me want like compulsory heterosexuality, but not in the same way the early episodes did, just like sad, forced heterosexuality. [laughs[
Kat 25:49
"Well I guess everyone else is gone."
Caitlin 25:52
I was reading some fanfic, I was reading some bad fanfic. And it made me really like Heero/Relena. And it made me think Heero and Relena could probably just get together in canon and I wouldn't mind that. And then I realized that I think that because I'm a Duo/Wufei shipper deep down.
Cathy 26:09
No, I agree. One of my only-
Caitlin 26:12
And I think Heero/Relena is good.
Cathy 26:13
Yeah, like, I actually think that episodes 33 and 34 are some of the strongest Heero/Relena scenes. Like, you know, the beginning of Episode 34, I think he's like afraid that he's gonna die. And he, and he sees Relena's image flash over his mind. And I also think that moment, you know, we were talking about the moment where he sits down, and he's reading that book. And when Relena first comes down and sits next to him, he says her name in this like, really tender way. And then he immediately snaps into this kind of like, bitey, snappy, well, it's your country, you can do whatever you want. And I was thinking about that a lot. And I think, you know, I feel like he has a lot of like guilt and discomfort in the Sanc Kingdom where he clearly wants to be with her. And he clearly wants to like, live this really peaceful, idyllic life, but feels like he doesn't belong there. And I think that scene really demonstrates that.
Mallory 27:05
I really loved that moment, where he's like, Oh, it's your country! because he's being such a teenage boy about it. [laughter] Like this is sort of how a emo teenage boy would react to his crush sitting next to him. Like, Hey, what are you doing?
Caitlin 27:20
It's your [laughs]
Mallory 27:22
"Ugh, leave me alone!"
Caitlin 27:23
Instead of instead of, "well, it's a free country." "Well, it's your country." [laughter]
Mallory 27:30
But then as Relena is getting into Dorothy's limo, there's this moment where she turns around and looks back at the Institute for Peace or whatever. And Heero and Quatre are sort of lurking above her
Cathy 27:44
Yes. [laughs]
Caitlin 27:45
Oh yeah
Mallory 27:46
The way that it was drawn and the way that it was positioned, the way that she looks over her shoulder with like, the breeze and stuff, it felt really shoujo manga to me like, she's looking back at her true love as she goes to something that could be a trap, right?
Caitlin 28:03
Obvious trap.
Mallory 28:04
And I just really liked it. I liked that he was sort of watching over her and concerned, I guess.
Cathy 28:10
yeah,
Caitlin 28:11
So he does immediately not stay there, which is the only thing she asked him to do. He immediately goes to Luxembourg to fight
Mallory 28:19
He is still a boy,
Caitlin 28:20
Yeah, he just has to do it. [crosstalk]
Kat 28:21
He gave her that meaningful nod. [laughter]
Mallory 28:24
And then like,
Caitlin 28:26
And it turns out that men are liars.
Mallory 28:29
And Quatre's just like, "are you serious? [laughter] You just told her you weren't gonna leave!"
Cathy 28:35
I love Quatre, he's like so horrified. And also, Heero just like doesn't bat an eye. He's like, Yeah, you gotta stay here, I gotta go [laughter] you gotta stay here because maybe Trowa will come back but I gotta go, bye.
Mallory 28:46
Which is so emotionally manipulative.
Cathy 28:48
He's so awful. I hate him [laughing]
Kat 28:50
Quatre sleeps with Noin because he's sick of hanging out with his dead boyfriend's ex.
Caitlin 28:55
Yeah, but yeah, I also love Relena in these episodes. We haven't really talked about her too much. 'Cause all I have to say is I love her. I'm glad she was like, fuck Zechs. I don't know that guy.
Cathy 29:06
I do, I do love that. And I also like, despite the fact that Zechs and Relena have absolutely no real like overlap as siblings that they're aware of, I do kind of like this quiet, unspoken connection. Where like Zechs had set up this whole like Zechs versus Milliardo Peacecraft thing, kind of like just in case anybody wanted to take advantage of it right? And then Relena kind of like instantly was like, Oh, I get what he's putting down, right? Like, "He's Zechs Merquise. My brother is Milliardo Peacecraft. These are two separate people like what did he say he was? Well, can't be my brother."
Mallory 29:41
"His name doesn't match!"
Caitlin 29:43
Yeah, just not just not the same guy.
Cathy 29:46
And I know this is implied but like how great really is that moment where Relena goes in to that room full of old men. And she's just this like young beautiful vibrant girl in her in her like full Sanc Kingdom regalia. Like she's just is so great. Like she has, she has poise. She's clearly grown up so much from the first time we've seen her. It's a great scene.
Mallory 30:07
Yeah, and I love that her Sanc Kingdom regalia is, it acts as her mobile suit in a way like she puts it on to challenge these men and their ideas of how life and humans interact with each other. I like the sort of symbolism of that.
Caitlin 30:26
Cathy, do you wanna, do you want to read her note out loud?
Cathy 30:29
Yeah. So I took this screencap, which is I think it was Dorothy or something, lays out this invitation that they give to Relena. And I was really curious, because I wanted to know, you know, this comes up a lot in sci fi, like, what is the common language? What are we speaking when we're talking to everybody? I think it looks like German. But really, the only two words you can read are Relena Peacecraft. And the rest is something like "Proust on the bloom, [weird mouth noises]." Like it's like not, there is no other discernible letters. So if anybody can figure out anything of what's going on to this letter, I'd love to hear it. Because that's what I got.
Kat 31:08
We're talking about how Relena really grew. And I think her conversation with Noin and Quatre at the end where she talks about how she's always the one getting saved was -- I don't know, like, I guess it's like less romantic for her now, you know, like, sort of shifted perspective? Like Heero saving her before was like, "wow, I'm special." Now. It's just like, What the fuck, this is really messing with my pacifism steeze, like.
Caitlin 31:35
But I wish she would accept that some people like are so important that they don't have to fight battles, like they, they need to be protected.
Kat 31:47
I think Quatre tries. And I do like when Quatre says people like us, he sort of also includes Noin in that, like, she is also a fellow soldier that feels uncomfortable in Sanc Kingdom, but is gonna stay.
Mallory 32:01
Yeah, he reaffirms to her, you will achieve peace, and we will fight to achieve that peace. And it's it's basically him telling her you don't have to dirty your hands. Because you have people behind you who... who will fight for you, essentially. Like you don't have to be a soldier and not everyone has to be a soldier, we need you to be our leader in peace times, because soldiers don't know how to be peaceful. And that includes Noin. Like we don't know how to not solve problems with without fighting.
Caitlin 32:36
And that ties back to what Treize is saying to Heero, this idea that you don't know what to do once the fighting is over. So it sets up Heero and Relena as needing each other. That's kind of sweet, too.
Kat 32:48
We're gonna leave this podcast all 1xR shippers.
Caitlin 32:52
Yeah, that's true.
Cathy 32:53
I am very, I am actually very convinced that that relationship, the more -- I mean, I think it will need a lot of therapy for Heero. But yeah, I actually do, like the more watch it the more I'm like, you know, they're really sweet in an unfortunate way.
Caitlin 33:08
I like it. But I'm also easily convinced by the, you could call it the yaoi logic of he idealizes her and isn't really ready for like a real relationship with her. And therefore needs needs to have dirty backroom sex with Duo in a safe house. [laughter] You know.
Cathy 33:26
What I think I like about them is that like, and I know this came out a lot in the fan art, which is like they will always have this little push-pull. So I like to imagine that even if they do get married and like have a super boring normal, like cis heteronormative relationship, there will always be this kind of like fun push-pull between the two of them. Right? And that'll just be natural and part of what makes them enjoy each other's company.
Caitlin 33:40
Aw
Cathy 33:49
So I do kind of like that.
Caitlin 33:51
I'm glad that we went through the effort of making sure that there was heterosexual representation on this podcast. [laughter]
Cathy 33:56
Yes, me the the only one.
Caitlin 33:59
Cathy the heterosexual
Cathy 34:01
The token straight woman.
Caitlin 34:03
Yeah. Should we talk about the fandom artifact? All right. So our fandom artifact for today is a magazine I purchased on Japanese selling things site Mercari. It is the 1995 October issue. And it is includes a feature on Gundam Wing and a feature on detective mystery stories.
Kat 34:30
Give us a little more background on Puff.
Caitlin 34:33
Puff is a magazine for manga information, so it publishes a lot of "here are the new manga stories being published. Here are some interviews with manga artists." I believe it originally started as mostly shoujo, so girls manga, and then over the course of the 80s it evolved into a BL / josei which is like older women And there's a lot of references to like, CLAMP manga.
Cathy & Kat & Mallory 35:04
Mmm. Yeah.
Caitlin 35:06
So like, think of that sort of thing where it's not it's not really BL but it has a lot of like BL suggestions.
Mallory 35:12
There's a lot of like the twink or the uke look, looking up and blushing at someone whose face is very close to him.
Caitlin 35:20
Yes, there's a lot of advertisements for --
Cathy 35:24
For FAKE. For FAKE and Kizuna which is like actually BeBoy, BL manga.
Caitlin 35:30
And then the magazine also has a lot of cool -- it sells doujinshi so it has like a --
Kat 35:36
Okay those are doujinshi ads. I was like, flipping through it
Caitlin 35:39
Yeah,
Kat 35:39
I was like cat? dog? Dog boy Duo?
Caitlin 35:43
Dog boy Duo. And there's one that I share that has a like a wolf, wolf man Duo. But so included into the in this there's a Gundam Wing feature. It has... starts out with episode summaries so it goes up through episode 19. And then it has character profiles. They're basically the standard character profiles. So there is a chart of the OZ ranks and their are equivalent actual military ranks, which I thought was interesting and we'll put online. One thing I wanted to know is that Noin is the last scion of an Italian aristocratic family. And it says that very specifically, I was like I had never I never realized that. Maybe maybe that comes up in other places.
Cathy 36:22
Well, her name is Lucrezia, so [laughter]
Caitlin 36:23
Yeah that's true, her name is Lucrezia. Relena's eyes are sumireiro (すみれ色) which is violet. And then.
Kat 36:33
So she has, she has violet eyes [laughter] that are always given to Duo!
Caitlin 36:38
Yes. And then Kat, earlier you asked in her episode notes, how short is Quatre?
Kat 36:45
Yeah because
Caitlin 36:45
Quatre is 156 centimeters, which is the exact same height as Wufei. And I think Trowa's taller. Duo's the same height, Heero's the same height
Cathy 36:56
Isn't Relena a centimeter taller than the boys? I feel like I remember this.
Caitlin 37:00
No, she's two centimeters shorter.
Cathy 37:02
Oh, no. Sad.
Mallory 37:04
Well, she wears heels.
Kat 37:05
Right cuz I was gonna say, in the show, he's definitely shorter than her, which is why I wrote that down. Like, how tall is Quatre?
Caitlin 37:12
I think she just probably just wears a little heels.
Kat 37:15
In my mind she's a giantess.
Cathy 37:19
She should be taller than them.
Caitlin 37:21
And it was a thing in fanfic to have like people born in space be smaller.
Cathy 37:25
Be small.
Kat 37:26
Yeah.
Cathy 37:26
Small tiny children,
Caitlin 37:27
Because they're like, uh
Kat 37:30
Because your bone loses, your bones lose density?
Caitlin 37:33
Yeah, you're genetically wasted or something. That was a big, that was a big plot in the big Duo/Wufei fanfic I read over the past week. So anyway, in addition to all the normal information like character profiles, Gundam profiles, the magazine also has an article called "How to Make Watching Gundam Wing 10 Times More Fun," we'll call it and it has a list of aspects of Gundam Wing, which I translated for the group, translated/summarized for the group. Number two on this list is they recommend thinking about all the different combinations of characters and so like with each combination of boys, you get a different you get a different vibe, and they do seem to set up this rivalry between Heero and Quatre over Trowa.
Mallory 38:20
Yeah, because Heero says to Quatre, you act totally differently with Trowa than you do with me. And Quatre says, Your attitude with Trowa is as different as heaven and earth from your attitude with me. Yeah, because Heero's not in love with you, Quatre, he's in love with your boyfriend.
Caitlin 38:38
That's, that's really harsh.
Cathy 38:39
I know on the show Heero and Quatre do have quite a connection, you know, like Quatre saves him, and there's this whole Wing Zero aspect between the two of them. But I just love the idea of the two of them being like, Wait a second. You're so different in front of Trowa than you are with me. It's so good. Yeah.
Caitlin 38:55
And then the caption says "Cruel" about what Quatre's saying. [laughter]
Cathy 39:03
Well,
Caitlin 39:04
I don't think it's an education problem
Mallory 39:05
Number three on the list is Heero wins king of self explode is like my favorite.
Caitlin 39:09
Okay, so when I was typing these up, I forgot the word for like self-destruct. [laughter] I just, I just wrote self explode, which is a very literal translation of the Japanese. But everyone does it. Wufei hasn't really done it yet, as far as, as far as I can recall.
Kat 39:28
Because he's "a bit of a different type of otaku for Nataku." Aw.
Caitlin 39:34
Yes! They also, so they talk about how much everybody loves their mobile suits, and Wufei is a little bit too into his. There's this. There's this really funny comic of Wufei talking about Nataku and how when he thinks about Nataku, his heart starts to be and his chest hurts, and he can't sleep. And then he's like, What is this feeling? And Trowa's like, yeah, what the hell is that feeling? The caption is just, "that's love!" [laughter]
Kat 40:08
That's like every fanfic right there.
Caitlin 40:10
Yeah, that's every, like, bad Wufei characterization that I make fun of, but it's also very true.
Cathy 40:15
Then I wanted to point out specifically number eight, which are "things to keep you up at night." This is so funny, because it's basically like we had written this article in 1995. Because almost every one of these we talk about. Based on your notes, Caitlin, it's, why didn't the circus boss question Trowa's circus resume? Check.
Caitlin 40:37
I don't, that's probably not literally what it says.
Cathy 40:40
Yes.
Caitlin 40:40
Also, like, why didn't he? Why didn't he ask any questions about this? Why, why didn't he think about Trowa?
Cathy 40:46
Where was Wufei's boat floating to? Check.
Caitlin 40:50
Yeah, I really can't. I can't believe that it actually brought up Wufei's boat. But we've now found, since we published the Wufei boat episode, we've now found that listeners also think a lot about that boat.
Cathy 41:03
So then can we turn to what I'm very excited about -- these two beautiful splash pages of fan art?
Caitlin 41:10
Yes, and we will illegally scan these and put these on the internet. So they invited two manga artists to draw Gundam Wing art and write up a little like notes about their love of Gundam Wing. One is Mizuki Ken who is a manga artist and definitely has Gundam Wing doujinshi which you can still purchase. And then the other is -- sorry to hard to sound so much more excited. Wow. Sorry, sorry, to Mizuki Ken but the other is, Kōga Yun, who was the creator of Loveless
Cathy 41:48
I was floored by this.
Caitlin 41:51
I I was I was gagged. I was Iike, oh my god I cannot believe.
Cathy 41:57
I was floored by this. Because, you know, I was just like, oh, I'll just look up who these people are before our recording. And I was like, Holy crap. That's the mangaka of Loveless, who turns out to be a huge like Gundam, whole Gundam universe fan. She -- in her Japanese Wikipedia page there's a note that she wanted to name herself after Char Aznabal initially, [laughter] like that was gonna be her pen name and she decided not to go with that. You know, she says up here that Duo's her favorite character. Big woop, like who, you know Duo is every mangaka's favorite character I feel like
Caitlin 42:31
That's true.
Kat 42:31
But it's like, mine too. Mm.
Cathy 42:34
And you could like find some of her work still, like her early Gundam Wing doujinshi, which of course is very Duo-focused. But like her art doesn't look very much like her Loveless art in this splash page. It's really very nice. Like it's very, very in character Gundam Wing fan art.
Caitlin 42:52
And in case the people listening at home don't know what Loveless is -- this is the manga series where there's a whole plot, but
Kat 43:01
Is there?
Caitlin 43:01
everybody ignores that in favor of the fact that the boys have cat ears until they lose their virginity.
Cathy 43:08
All the characters have cat ears.
Kat 43:10
Cat girls!
Cathy 43:10
The girls do as well.
Caitlin 43:11
The girls do as well. Sorry, I just meant that it's mostly boys, but there are girls there too. And then the plot is about Ritsuka, he's 12 years old and he meets this older man who knows something about his brother's death and gets involved in this like fighting ring of like weird magic. And it's kind of, it's problematic by today's standards.
Cathy 43:36
It was problematic back then too let's not [laughter]
Caitlin 43:38
Let's be fair, it was problematic by all standards. But it was very formative. And even today in many fandoms you will have Loveless AUs where like the character have cat ears until they lose their virginity.
Cathy 43:53
And just to give Ken Mizuki her due, her circle name I think was Ypritto and I think she was a very big Trowa/Heero shipper or she she was really into Trowa. And so she has some really beautiful fan art that I think if you were anywhere around websites in that early 2000s era, you have seen Ken Mizuki's Gundam Wing fan art.
Caitlin 44:20
Yes definitely.
Cathy 44:21
I don't care if you were looking for it, I don't care if you didn't even look for fanart. You saw it, it was on people's banners. So I was also really excited to discover that that's who they had in the Puff magazine. They knew what they were doing, the Puff magazine people.
Caitlin 44:35
I also wanted to mention a feature of this magazine, which is a true relic that I love because I love old media stuff. But there's an advertisement for a Dial Fun Club, which was a, a 900 number you could call in. No, I mean like 900 number in the US. So it actually also starts with 900 in Japanese. But it's like you call it and then you can pick your topic. So like if you wanted to talk about X-Men, you could press 839#. And then it would it, would it would connect you to other people who wanted to talk about X-Men
Kat 45:13
Whoa.
Caitlin 45:13
It's what people did
Mallory 45:14
It's literally a 90s version of Clubhouse. Sorry.
Caitlin 45:17
Yeah, this is what people did before the internet. I don't want to, I don't want to -- Clubhouse is a 2020 version of Dial Fun Club. Okay, let's be clear.
Cathy 45:28
You could talk to somebody about Doraemon apparently. [laughs]
Caitlin 45:32
Doraemon? Heck yeah!
Cathy 45:33
730#.
Caitlin 45:35
Everybody loves Doremon,
Mallory 45:36
Do you think that you all would have been the type of people to call into a Dial Fun Club?
Cathy 45:44
No.
Caitlin 45:46
No, I wouldn't have, because back when I was like on the old internet, I was just a lurker
Kat 45:52
I think I probably would've because when I started getting on the internet, I was into AOL chats.
Mallory 46:00
Chatrooms or
Kat 46:01
AOL chatrooms that were sort of set up like this, like
Caitlin 46:05
The randos
Kat 46:07
Yeah, I used to hang out in like "The Jedi cafe?" I guess also maybe like, Goths versus Preps, but whatever.
Cathy 46:16
I would, I would've loved to dial in to hear somebody else have a conversation. But I don't think I would want to have a conversation with somebody.
Caitlin 46:25
Yeah, I would want to I would want to lurk.
Kat 46:29
Thank you for sharing this beautiful artifact with us. It's incredible.
Caitlin 46:33
You're you're welcome. Thank you for talking to me about party line. Thank you for being my party line.
Cathy 46:38
Awww
Caitlin 46:39
For Gundam Wing chat.
Kat 46:40
Oh, thanks, listeners for being our lurkers on our party line.
Caitlin 46:44
Yeah, thanks for lurking. Thanks for lurking. Not that you have a choice but. [laughing]
Caitlin 46:58
Okay, so that's all for this week. We will see you next time. Please follow us on the social medias. On Twitter we're @TallgeesePod, on Instagram I think we are UntitledTallgeesePodcast and you can keep up with our updates. Subscribe on whichever podcast app you prefer.
Caitlin 47:16
Byyyye
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EPISODE 17: DIAL EPYON CLUB
2021 is about to leave us like Heero leaving the Sanc Kingdom the minute Relena takes her eyes off him, but before we go, your hosts are here to talk religion, make fun of Treize, and talk disastrous hookups—and we'll never be out of disastrous hookups! We're finally introduced to the dark and edgy outer senshi Gundam Epyon, which Treize has lovingly stashed away in a dark creepy mansion complete with his secret shrine dedicated to Heero Yuy figurines and photographs. Just kidding! He doesn't have a shrine! But he does have a lot of Feelings about Heero Yuy which he can't wait to share with us in a very long monologue, so long that we rise up like Nietzsche to declare that God--I mean Treize--is dead and Heero climbs into a deathtrap mobile suit just to get him to shut up. Come for token straight (literally) woman Cathy sharing her 1xR and 4x9 feelings and stay for Caitlin walking us through the October 1995 issue of Puff Magazine, which featured Gundam Wing trivia, fanart, doujinshi circles, and an advertisement for a Dial Fun Club. Happy New Year from your friends at Untitled Tallgeese Pod!
Episode on Anchor | Transcript | Fandom Artifact
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EPISODE 16: Government Mandated Divorce Energy
We're still at Relena's School for Girls (and Two Boys!) Who Want to Craft Peace, except one girl came out here to have a good time and her idea of a good time is attacking and getting attacked. Dorothy doesn't have time for your thoughts on gender essentialism and pacifism or the battle between Bad Oz and Treize Oz. She's just here to stab Heero in a fencing duel and drive Relena straight into the middle of a mobile suit battle! Honestly, big mood. And speaking of moods, we delve deep into every one of the many vibes Duo is putting out in episode 32, from "the only pilot in a healthy heterosexual relationship with someone who is not his sister" to "divorced dad in the streets, sexy goth Gundam in the sheets" to killing Trant Clark for being too online. One day Mike Flanagan will take all of the Zero System episodes from this series and turn them into a limited-run Netflix horror show, where the Zero System is a symbol for capitalism (probably) and Duo will finally be the Hot Priest Character we all knew he could be. But for the time being, you'll just have to stick with us as we pour over this week's artifact: the manga prequel Episode Zero, which explains why you keep hearing about the Maxwell Church, Meiran, and Midi Une.
Episode on Anchor | Transcript | Fandom Artifact
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[TRANSCRIPT] EPISODE 16: GOVERNMENT MANDATED DIVORCE ENERGY
Kat 00:03
Howdy, this is Untitled Tallgeese Podcast, and I'm Kat, joined by Caitlin, Cathy, and Mallory for our 16th podcast episode which spans episodes 31 and 32 of the anime Gundam Wing. Episode 31, The Glass Kingdom, opens with Quatre and Heero arguing about whether to stay in the Sanc Kingdom. Quatre sees it as the only way to protect the pacifist nation. Relena manages to convince them both to enroll in her pacifism school by offering to find the currently MIA Trowa Barton. They cause quite a stir as they're ~boys~ and Dorothy and Heero have a fencing match and a flashback. Relena receives a request from Romefeller to fight a battle in her country, and Noin informs her that the request is to fight a group of specifically Treize Faction soldiers. Relena offers them refugee status. Instead, the soldiers refuse, because they were intentionally chased into the Sanc Kingdom to give Romefeller an excuse to attack. Noin, a realist, takes Quatre to her secret stash of mobile suits, and they set out to help. Heero's already on his way in his recently retrieved Gundam. Dorothy, horny for battle, gives Relena a ride there so she can try to stop it -- but the fighting has already started by their arrival. After a quick save, Heero et al. take out the Romefeller troops and the experience, and a long Heero Yuy monologue, convince Relena to allow Noin to set up a defense force.
Kat 01:21
Episode 32, The God of Death Meets Zero, starts with Duo absolutely decimating some Romefeller forces in his sick new Gundam and grabbing whatever he can salvage. Living on a colony with Hilde, he's been messing with Tsuberov's mobile doll factory, repairing his suit, and communing with the locals, who are maybe not as loyal to Romefeller as they'd think. Lieutenant Trant, whom you probably don't remember from previous Zero System episode, Episode 26, shows up in his own Gundam and kidnaps Duo by threatening to blow up the colony, demanding he fight mobile dolls so Trant can study the system in a real battle. Duo is momentarily overwhelmed by the Zero System, hallucinating just like Trant and he declares it too much for any human to handle. Trant kicks Duo out of the suit. Thankfully Hilde shows up with Deathscythe, and then Trant and Duo battle it out in their Gundams. Trant is eventually defeated by his own hubris.
Kat 02:11
And that's the two episodes. I'd like to kick off by talking about Relena's pacifism school.
Mallory 02:18
Relena's Peace school for Peace.
Caitlin 02:20
I love pacifism school! Let's go to pacifism school!
Cathy 02:24
Pacifism school is great. It is definitely, I think the most Utena of the Utena settings in Gundam Wing, even with all the like nobles prancing around in the OZ episodes. But like I really, really, really want to talk about the hilarious color-coding, which is that all the girls are in these pink jackets. And then they put Heero and Quatre in powder blue vests, which looks hideous on both of them.
Caitlin 02:51
Yes. It's so you know that they're boys. I also like the moment where Quatre says, "Oh, it's all girls here, I guess because they don't trust boys not to fight?" So my ridiculous thought was to: rap battle franchise Hypnosis Mic, where it's a dystopian future where women have taken over and banned all forms of fighting, because men were too violent. They've removed all weapons and now the only weapons left to men are rap battles. [laughter]
Caitlin 03:28
Sorry.
Kat 03:29
That's really incredible?
Caitlin 03:32
And I was like, if Relena knew about this, she would be able to truly find a path towards pacifism. [laughing]
Cathy 03:39
Except they are allowed to fence. It is the one thing that they're allowed to fight with, right, which is fencing.
Mallory 03:47
But, but there are also like, a lot of rules to fencing, right? And you have to have like a very specific form, and I think it's more elegant and acceptable. It's like a more elegant form of battle.
Kat 04:01
Is that not the metaphor for like the whole OZ/Romefeller experience?
Cathy 04:05
Yeah. [laughing]
Caitlin 04:06
Yeah. It's a dignified, restrained form of fighting. Though I feel like the amazing Heero and Dorothy battle is not done in very good fencing form [laughter]
Mallory & Kat 04:18
No.
Kat 04:20
I did want to point out where Quatre says in the dub, "I guess it's really true then, they say that men don't believe in solving all matters with discussion" versus "they don't think men can solve problems without fighting." I also like that Heero's response was like, "some women also like battles." There's a lot of gender.
Mallory 04:38
Yeah. And then Dorothy shows the fuck up.
Cathy 04:39
Yeah just immediate: insert flash to Dorothy!
Caitlin 04:41
That's the segue to Dorothy!
Mallory 04:42
Like some women like fighting and it's Dorothy who is horny for all fighting.
Kat 04:47
She gets an amazing horror movie like music cue, too
Mallory 04:50
Yes, like that schwing!
Caitlin 04:52
Even her eyebrows are fighting.
Cathy 04:54
I also really love the fencing scene because it's a callback, which I feel like a lot of this episode is a callback to kind of the first episodes where Heero and Relena are at the other school together. So again, Heero is involved in this weird fencing battle where he basically almost pokes somebody's eye out. And there's a lot of discussion about Heero's secret identity. Previously, it was Relena, who was like, sort of about to out him and now it's Dorothy trying to out him and Heero's just like, whatever, lady, I have no idea what you're talking about. [laughing]
Mallory 05:27
Who are you?
Kat 05:28
Maybe there are two other Heeros out there?
Cathy 05:31
Yeah. It kind of ends with a scene in which Heero is like, forced to fight, you know, or, or engage in a military thing. And then there's sort of an intruder here. And you know, it's kind of like a Noin/Dorothy/Quatre mix of who gets to play the Duo character. But I do think it's either a really great thematic callback, or the writers just don't know what else to do with these two characters and keep doing this over and over again. I haven't made up my mind.
Caitlin 05:57
Well, no, I think it's deliberate because it's the second half of the series. So they're essentially like,
Cathy 06:01
Yeah.
Caitlin 06:01
relaunching the series. So they've returned to where they were at the beginning, and they've developed on parts of it. So Heero is a very different person from what we've seen in the original.
Mallory 06:13
Yeah, and Dorothy is like really different from Relena, but is still in like that narrative role, I guess.
Cathy 06:20
Yes.
Mallory 06:21
I really liked the angle where, right after Heero stabs Dorothy's mask, and there's this like, wild perspective that makes her look like so much taller than Heero. And I, I really liked that because I was like, Oh, I could be into that if she was just his, like tall dominant girlfriend? And I think Dorothy probably thought the same? It felt like she thought the same, even though she is a giant lesbian.
Cathy 06:46
So one of the notes I have is that Dorothy is like, an insane fujoshi, but the thing that she's really into is war. [laughter] Like she plays the same character as -- if you guys ever seen Ouran Host Club
Mallory 07:00
Yesss
Cathy 07:00
There's a, there's a like otaku girl who's like a fujoshi in Ouran, her name is Renge. And this is like exactly her role. Like Dorothy plays her, only what she's obsessed with is war.
Caitlin 07:14
Yeah.
Mallory 07:15
Oh, I love that. That's a really great way to look at her character.
Caitlin 07:19
You could come up with an AU where Dorothy is one of those like military reenactment otaku? [laughter] Like the guys who go into the Japanese countryside with like, military grade gear, though it's all fake, because you can't actually own guns that easily.
Kat 07:35
Well, that's good.
Caitlin 07:36
And then they recreate like war, war. [laughter] war activities.
Kat 07:41
It's good that you can have real guns because every crime procedural in America has at least one like Civil War reenactor -- but it's a real gun! episode.
Cathy 07:50
Yeah.
Kat 07:51
I was gonna say so Mallory, you said angles -- one of the things we noticed when we were watching is that there's like tons of weird camera angles, like the perspective shifts of like, Relena and Noin in her office where the camera's just totally tilted on its side was so bizarre.
Mallory 08:06
Yeah, for little reason.
Caitlin 08:09
They were doing some really dramatic shots in Episode 31. It might just be like the episode director's style, but there's a really good one of Relena when the car
Cathy 08:19
Yes!
Caitlin 08:20
hits, and you see her like, it's Relena's most shoujo shot, like her hair becomes like beautiful and wavy. And it's so dramatic, I love it.
Mallory 08:31
So I have a theory about it, that it's both like the animators sort of stretching their wings and trying like, new things. But I also think it's just like, trying to make Earth a little more interesting. Because in space, like in all the space episodes, there's more dimensionality to the action. And on Earth, it's very, like one dimensional.
Kat 08:52
Oh that's really interesting.
Mallory 08:53
and it feels very much like they're trying to like, shift some of the perspectives to make it more visually interesting. Because Earth episodes tend to feel really static, where people are just sitting in a room and talking in like the space episodes, you have battles that use up and down motions and side to side [crosstalk]
Kat 09:13
Yeah, you've got the full 360
Mallory 09:15
Exactly.
Kat 09:16
Yeah, so to make Relena and Noin talking over a desk, visually interesting, you get this weird tilt.
Mallory 09:22
Yeah.
Cathy 09:23
I think it matches sort of the psychodrama at least of the opening where Relena essentially is holding Trowa hostage to get Quatre and Heero to stay? [crosstalk]
Caitlin 09:34
Yessss so good. And Quatre's like, [Quatre voice] "oh my God, my ex-boyfriend!" and Heero makes no reaction but Heero does, still decides to stay at the school so you know, he's internally like, [deeper Heero voice] "Oh my God, my ex boyfriend."
Kat 09:45
Weaponizing their mutual ex; it's so rude. rude. Such a good like adult Relena move. Like she can play politics now.
Caitlin 09:55
She says it's so
Cathy 09:55
Yes!
Caitlin 09:56
casually. She's like, "oh, you're gonna leave? but I'm looking for Trowa." [laughing]
Cathy 10:01
That was the thing that really caught me off guard because for a second, I didn't know where she was going, because it just seemed impossible that she would just so casually throw that out there and then lace it at the end with this little poison hook of like, there's so much we could do for you.
Mallory 10:16
I mean, well, this was Relena coming into her own as not just like a pacifist thinker, but a politician, right? Like, she knows that these two boys have a relationship with Trowa, and she's going to dangle a carrot in front of them that is so tempting that she can't be refused. And she's gonna do it casually because she knows she holds all the power. It's pretty cool.
Caitlin 10:41
In that vein, I was really struck by the conversation with Dorothy in the car, where Dorothy is like, "hahaha, I bet you've never seen a real battle before." And Relena's like, "Mmm, yeah, I try to avoid them."
Cathy 10:53
Yeah,
Caitlin 10:53
But we know Relena has been in like actual battles before, and is sort of covering it up, or just being demure 'cause she doesn't like them, 'cause she's a normal person. But but, but Dorothy really thinks that Relena is like, naive in a way that Relena is just not anymore. I feel like Relena has probably seen more actual battle than Dorothy has.
Cathy 11:20
I mean, Relena didn't fly to Antarctica, and like, literally get in between Zechs and Heero for Dorothy to act like she's never been in a battle.
Caitlin 11:29
Yeah!
Kat 11:30
That's really funny, though, because she's literally doing the same thing in that scene. [laughter] So like, for all we're saying that she's adult, she's literally going to the scene so she can fling her little human body inbetween some mobile suits.
Caitlin 11:45
Well, she's not very good at avoiding these battles. Like she says, "Oh, I don't really want to go into battle because it's, I don't like, 'em
Kat 11:52
As we're driving [to one]
Caitlin 11:53
But she does it all the time!
Mallory 11:54
But she's like,
Kat 11:55
yeah,
Mallory 11:55
she's like yelling, "I have to stop it!"
Cathy 11:57
[laughing] Yeah I know
Mallory 11:57
"It's the only way!" Like girl, what do you think you're going to, you're possibly going to do against a mobile suit. [laughing]
Kat 12:03
It worked the first time.
Caitlin 12:05
Yeah she's gonna wave her arms. [laughter] I support her. I love, I love the sort of like, you could read it as naivete, or you could read it as like a courageous hopefulness.
Cathy 12:15
Yeah.
Caitlin 12:15
In Relena's pacifism. Like, I really admire her, even though ultimately I agree with Noin and Heero that [laughter] they probably need some sort of, what do you call it? A Self Defense Force like Japan has, which is like backdoor to militarism. But
Cathy 12:31
Yeah, Caitlin, I wanted to ask you about this, because I definitely flag that in my notes. This is a really like, surely this was intentional, right?
Caitlin 12:41
Yes, this is like literally, oh, Japan can't live entirely without war. They need to self defense force. But the Japanese Self Defense Force actually gets involved in a lot of military actions nowadays, and is quite a large naval force.
Mallory 12:58
Is that controversial?
Caitlin 12:59
[laughing] Yes. But the but the country's really right, right wing these days, so it's not. It's not as controversial as it could be.
Cathy 13:07
Yeah, I liked it. Because, you know, there's this what I consider the fundamental theory of all the Gundam series, which is we want peace and war is bad, but we must also in some ways, fight and make war so that we can keep and make room for peace. And so there's this kind of complicated negotiation that's happening there. And Heero sort of saying, essentially, "I got my hands dirty, I'm a soldier, and this is all I can do. And so it's up to others, like Relena, to try to do the thing I cannot which is to make peace. And then I'll do this thing that only I can do, which is fight." I, I've always found it really fascinating where Relena stands in this like philosophical debate, I've always read her as being able to do the philosophical things that others in the series can't. So like, you know, one thing that I brought up before is that when we first saw Noin, we saw a woman who was so desperate to keep soldiers out of war that she essentially thinks that she can like out think war and plot everything so that nobody dies in battle. And like Relena sort of stands for that in a way in this series. When she's sees the Treize faction, she doesn't see soldiers, she sees people who are injured.
Kat 14:19
Yeah, the contrast between her and Noin like, "well, we shouldn't get involved," versus "we should welcome them as refugees" combined also with Dorothy talking about how Relena allowed her to stay at the Academy.
Cathy 14:32
Yeah.
Kat 14:33
Like I really liked those details as a way to sort of flesh out how well Relena's really living that philosophy that she's preaching.
Caitlin 14:40
Yeah. And I think Relena-- outsiders could say, Oh, she's she's stupid. She's young. She doesn't know what she's doing. But I think she knows that these are all on some level not the ideal choices from a perspective of running a country. But for for her philosophy, making these choices is what's most important. And I love that.
Cathy 15:03
Yeah, I do too because I think she absolutely knows right like that this is a problem. This is going to create a problem for the Sanc Kingdom if she lets the Treize Faction in. But it's really important to her to demonstrate humanity in a way that I think she doesn't see OZ and the Romefeller Foundation doing. Not OZ-OZ but like the Romefeller Foundation's current OZ. So I think that that was great.
Caitlin 15:26
Bad OZ and Treize OZ
Cathy 15:27
[laughing] Bad OZ and Treize OZ
Mallory 15:28
Bad OZ and Treize OZ
Kat 15:29
I think Pagan says "new OZ," like once.
Caitlin 15:32
Yeah, he does say that. And I was like, Uhhh, that's just gonna make it more confusing. [laughter]
Mallory 15:38
It actually did [laughter]
Caitlin 15:40
Cause when I, when I saw New OZ, I was like, is there another OZ? [laughter]
Mallory 15:45
Like, is it OZ and Romefeller?
Caitlin 15:46
I was trying to figure out if if a new OZ had formed in between this episode and the previous episode.
Kat 15:53
For me, this episode was surprisingly, like literal. There was not a ton of subtext I think going on. So Relena's growth, and then we get to see some of Heero's backstory in this, we get a little flashback, where we learn about his namesake, which pulls us all together, because he's named after a famous assassinated pacifist, which nobody ever mentions, except for Dorothy.
Caitlin 16:18
We barely learned anything about this backstory. We got, we get a two second flashback to Dr. J. naming Heero. He's like, Oh, you need a name? Why don't I name you after this pacifist? Names him Heero Yuy. And while I was on the ancient websites, and I found one called "Honor to Gundam Wing," and they had a theories page, and I was looking at the theories and theory one was, this is why they're so thin. And if you click through, it's a whole extensive theory about their eating habits, like the eating habits of pilots
Mallory & Kat & Cathy 16:54
No, no, uh-uh, no
Caitlin 16:55
Which I am, I am definitely going to send to you guys. I definitely screencap that. And then theory number two, is Dr. J is Heero Yuy. But if you click through the Wayback Machine says, We've never [laughing] scraped this page
Cathy & Kat & Mallory 17:13
Oh no/Shit/Noo
Caitlin 17:14
So we will never know what this theory was. But I think it's pretty straightforward [laughter] that Dr. J is the previous Heero Yuy, the one who was assassinated. And instead of being assassinated, he became a super intelligent scientist man, and created a little clone boy for himself and made a Gundam.
Mallory 17:37
To start war.
Caitlin 17:39
He was assassinated, so now of course, he's gonna be like, Yeah, we got to blow shit up.
Cathy 17:43
You know, I'm really glad -- We could talk, we're going to talk about this later. Because Kat one of the things that you suggested we talk for a fandom artifact is Episode Zero, which goes into the backstory in depth, but it actually makes it kind of funny sense.
Caitlin 17:58
Yes, it does.
Cathy 17:59
In the reality of what happened, because, you know, we're going to talk about this, but like, Heero Yuy the Gundam pilot is like a protege of the person who is the assassin of the actual Heero Yuy.
Kat 18:13
That really doesn't explain his connection with Dr. J at all! [laughter]
Mallory 18:17
No.
Caitlin 18:19
And with all the stuff that happens in Episode Zero? If Dr. J turned out to be the
Cathy 18:25
Yes!
Caitlin 18:25
assassinated pacifist, that would not even register as weird.
Cathy 18:30
It would be less than that, it would actually make more sense than anything else presented about why Heero Yuy ends up with Dr. J, which is, there is no reason.
Caitlin 18:40
So whoever wrote this fan theory in, you know, 1999 or 2000, 2001 probably, please get in touch with us and explain. [laughter] Explain the whole theory.
Kat 18:53
Or if you read this theory, and sort of halfway remember it, please write to us
Caitlin 18:58
if you read this theory and thought that it was canon, I really want to hear from you. [laughter] I think that it could, it could have been canon.
Kat 19:07
So let's move on to Episode 32 umm and the Zero System. One, like, I love this episode, because it's a Duo episode!
Caitlin 19:17
He's so cool
Mallory 19:18
Oh Duo's so cool
Caitlin 19:20
He's so cool. And Hilde is so cute.
Cathy 19:23
Hilde's so cute!
Caitlin 19:25
They actually are really good pair
Cathy 19:26
Yes!
Caitlin 19:26
in this except that he tells her to go cook him dinner.
Kat 19:30
Yeah [laugh]
Mallory 19:31
Yeah,
Caitlin 19:31
but then she's like, Fuck off.
Cathy 19:33
Yes!
Caitlin 19:33
so it's perfect. It's just clearly banter.
Mallory 19:35
I like Hilde and I think she's really cute but they just have this energy or this vibe of "We're two scrappy orphans getting into shenanigans and people call us rascals!" [laughter] and just can't take that seriously as a ship. Like I really like them as a, as a pairing.
Caitlin 19:52
But I love that. They are rascals.
Cathy 19:55
That's so interesting, because that reads to me as exactly the kind of coating that anime gives heterosexual ships. Like this is like, so obvious, like anime chemistry. I'm not saying this is real chemistry, although I actually thought it was really great. But like this I had written in my notes: this is the one normal heterosexual relationship and Gundam Wing that makes sense.
Caitlin 20:16
Yeah!
Mallory 20:17
That is, that is true.
Caitlin 20:18
Of all the government mandated heterosexual love interests, this is the least weird. She isn't even slightly his sister, maybe. Unlike [laughter]
Cathy 20:31
I was about to say, this is, what's really funny is they are the only government mandated heterosexual couple to be married and then divorced in Frozen Teardrop. So [laughing]
Kat 20:41
Oh take that nonsense away.
Caitlin 20:42
Why would you mention that?
Mallory 20:44
Shoo, shoo
Cathy 20:44
I think that's extremely funny because that is like so heterosexual. They're so heterosexual they got married and then they got divorced.
Kat 20:51
Frozen Teardrops free! [laugh]
Caitlin 20:53
To be fair, Duo does have strong divorced energy.
Cathy 20:59
I agree, I agree
Mallory 21:00
But how much of that is Scott McNeil?
Cathy 21:02
[crosstalk] No, even Japanese Duo
Caitlin 21:03
Oh yeah that's true.
Caitlin 21:04
Even Japanese, he's, he just seems like he's headed towards a divorce.
Cathy 21:09
I agree. [laugher] I agree!
Kat 21:12
You're not wrong but t feels like an attack. And I think watching this episode was like, Oh, the weird mental image that I always put Duo in in fanfic. I was like, Oh, thank God that has some kind of weird canon basis. But it's also like, old divorced guy has like, all his cars up on blocks in front of his house kind of thing.
Caitlin 21:32
Yep. And they sell it, selling junk to the junkyard.
Kat 21:36
Yeah.
Caitlin 21:37
But they're mobile suits. They're very expensive mobile suits.
Kat 21:39
I think they have the most normal energy because they're like the most normal people? [laughter] Like they're getting along with the colonists, right? Like. Even though I, I didn't really understand this interaction, because I thought the truck full of shit was the payment he was making to that man, and then
Caitlin 21:54
Yeah I didn't understand that either, then he's like, "he didn't even take my payment!"
Kat 21:56
Oh thank god!
Caitlin 21:58
What are you talking about? He just took that. He just took that payment.
Kat 22:00
Right! He drove away in the truck that was the payment. Okay. [laughter]
Caitlin 22:04
What the fuck is wrong with you. Come on.
Kat 22:06
God, I'm so relieved. I thought this was gonna be one of those things that y'all would be like, uh duh.
Cathy 22:10
[laughter] No, no that made zero sense to me. I also didn't understand why Hilde ran towards him, and then ran back and then he ran somewhere.
Kat 22:17
That was also confusing.
Cathy 22:18
Where are you running to?
Mallory 22:20
It's just for action.
Kat 22:21
Yeah, but I think that's cool, because this is sort of maybe the first time you've seen a colonist -- I guess not the first time, but it's nice to see a colonist being like, we're rooting for you.
Caitlin 22:32
Yeah, finally, finally, a Gundam pilot has a friend.
Kat 22:35
So Duo seems like he's, he's really thriving in the colony. He's got a job. He's got like, his heterosexual love interest. He's got some friends. He's really enjoying himself.
Caitlin 22:46
And he's got his new Gundam, which is so sexy and goth.
Cathy 22:51
And he's committing terrorism. He's doing a lot of terrorism.
Caitlin 22:55
I was like, "Oh my god, I wish I could dress up as that Gundam." [laughter]
Kat 22:59
[crosstalk] Yeah, when he,
Caitlin 23:00
when the wings come out
Kat 23:01
he opens up the wing shield.
Caitlin 23:02
It's so scary. I love it!
Kat 23:04
And his like ghost eyes.
Caitlin 23:06
And my note was that it's very chūni,
Cathy 23:08
Yes!
Caitlin 23:01
which is the Japanese term for when like you are stuck in like a middle school, middle schooler's mindset of always pretending you're living in like, a fantasy life. Which I am. I am like extremely chūnibyō (中二病) . And I would definitely pretend I was piloting my awesome goth Gundam.
Cathy 23:09
Which I think is really funny because Duo is incredibly grounded in these episodes. Like you know, he he actually doesn't seem very chūni at all, but he has definitely the most like goth girl Gundam in the history of Gundam Wing [laughs]
Kat 23:43
He does yell, though, "The God of Death is back from hell."
Caitlin 23:46
It's [growling] "I'M BACK FROM HELL!" [laughs]
Mallory 23:48
He's still a dramatic bitch
Cathy 23:50
Because he's in the dramatic Gundam. Like once you're in the dramatic Gundam it's like your transformation sequence.
Caitlin 23:55
That's exactly the sort of chūnibyō that I also have. Like in my normal life, I'm an average person. You can chit chat with me about our work or whatever. And then in my mind, I'm like, [growling] "I'M BACK FROM HELL!" [laughter]
Kat 24:08
So let's introduce the third character of this episode, which is Lieutenant Trant, which I mentioned in the summary, he showed up in Episode 26. He was the member of the Treize Faction that couldn't stop fucking around with the Zero System while -- and he made Heero run tests on it.
Caitlin 24:23
Hey!
Kat 24:24
so, despite
Caitlin 24:25
Hey!
Kat 24:26
You remembered him?
Caitlin 24:27
I remembered him of all the mob characters show up in this show, I did remember this one.
Kat 24:34
I thought he died. [laughter] I'll be honest with you, I thought he was dead and I was like, Oh shit. [laughs]
Cathy 24:42
I remember him but for reasons that I won't bring up because I've said the words Frozen Teardrop too much in this episode.
Kat 24:47
Yes -- just gonna get like a bullhorn or something. So despite like literally seeing Heero freak out in the Gundam under the Zero System, he decided that he's just gonna like go AWOL with his team of mobile dolls to float in space and just fight them.
Cathy 25:05
I love this episode and Trant Clark is a big reason for it. And it's because the whole episode feels like you know, like a horror sci-fi movie, kind of like something out of the Alien franchise maybe. Like Prometheus was the first thing that came to mind. It meshes really well with the last time we saw a sort of long episode about the Zero System which was Quatre's episode which also had this really like horror feeling to it,
Caitlin 25:32
So good
Cathy 25:32
but everything about Episode 32 is like, dang, like somebody should go make that into like a thriller horror movie because it all the bones are there. Like Trant Clark going AWOL, like becoming obsessed with like pushing himself to the limit so that he could see everything like it was great
Caitlin 25:48
Yeah
Kat 25:49
just floating in space with your like, killer robot pals, that's already like a scenario and then like Duo being a space salvager you do a lot with that
Caitlin 25:59
You could do a lot with this. It's a really good plot, there was a funny tweet that is relevant to this. So the tweet goes: "There's a part of Gundam Wing where they invent a system that shows the pilot every possible gruesome death in a given situation, and it either drives them insane or makes them a perfect pilot. Anyway, that's how my brain works when calculating if people will get mad at a post." [laughter]
Cathy 26:21
And then Trant Clark definitely dies of being way too online, like that is actually what happens at the end of it.
Kat 26:26
He saw too much
Caitlin 26:28
I'm praying for that death for myself one day [laughs]
Kat 26:31
So as Trant sees his death, like that's his hallucination, and we got cool, like, I don't know, the sort of tie-dyed background and the w-- like the sort of body horror presentation gave me some Evangelion vibes.
Cathy 26:44
Yes.
Kat 26:45
But yeah, aesthetically. So that was really cool. And then we get Duo's hallucinations where he's visualizing Deathscythe, or, but it's new Deathscythe, and then like sort of ghosts of Deathscythe.
Cathy 26:58
Yes.
Caitlin 26:58
And they're all flying over him. It's, it's, [crosstalk]
Kat 27:01
I guess, are all of those supposed to be individual deaths? I guess I sort of thought of it as him envisioning how he's going to be able to defeat the system inside of them, or the zero system being like you already have a Gundam. And just showing him his own Gundam.
Caitlin 27:15
No, no, no, I think it's a, it's a reflection of his own fears that the Gundam--piloting the Gundam is going to lead to his death. So he's fighting Deathscythe because he knows that it's his, it's his duty to fight in the Gundam and that's going to result in his death.
Cathy 27:30
I always was very confused with like, what is the Zero System trying to do. I came away this time with thinking maybe it is something similar to what Caitlin is saying, like, it makes you the ultimate soldier by sort of, like hyperdriving your death drive sense, like your, like desire to escape from your own death. And so it like, bombards you with all these different ways that you die, and that you like, react really quickly to it, because you don't want to die.
Caitlin 27:56
I think it is meant to like, essentially, like push you into like a fight or flight response to such an extent that you can, all you can do is attack whatever is coming at you. And that's why it needs to have this hyperfocused, here is the enemy and you need to attack that enemy, rather than having like analysis of who the enemy is. That's why it doesn't work, unless you have a very clear sense of who the enemy is.
Kat 28:20
But also, I guess, to me, Trant's hallucinations were also directly related to the battle that he was having. So I was sort of curious as to why as Zero System would be showing him something that's sort of unrelated to the current battle that he's in. Maybe for cool, dramatic effect,
Caitlin 28:36
Cool dramatic effect. In might, it might be this, like latent fear thing. It might also be that that's, that's the enemy that he imagines is the most strong for him. Like he thinks. he thinks of Deathscythe as the most strong thing. He, he also has the vision of destroying the colony.
Cathy 28:54
Yeah,
Caitlin 28:54
so that's
Kat 28:54
right.
Caitlin 28:55
And I think that that is clearly like, a very deep fear for him. And that's why he sees it. It becomes like you have to fight in order to prevent this and so here's what you do.
Kat 29:06
I guess that's why to me, like my very first thought was like, Oh, this is like, you in Deathscythe is like the ultimate conclusion of this encounter. Like it just skipped through it. There's no other way for this to end than him destroying Wings Zero and the Zero System.
Cathy 29:23
I don't think it like follows any particular path. It's sort of almost as feels like it's it's like feeling out all the pilots and seeing which buttons it can push to create reactions. And so that seems sort of like where it was going here. All of it is to say, I think it's kind of like a Rorschach test, right? For anybody piloting it.
Kat 29:41
Yeah,
Mallory 29:42
yeah.
Caitlin 29:42
I also like with with the handling of the Zero System. I also like that we clearly see that Tsuberov, who is a bad man of bad choices, also is clearly like, no, fuck that Gundam [laughter] it's bad. Get rid of it. He's like, blow that thing up. And so we can all we can see that all sides of the OZ factions are like no to the Zero System.
Kat 30:09
So this episode's fandom artifact is the prequel manga Episode Zero by a series writer Katsuyuki Sumizawa and artists Akira Kanbe. So this was published in I think 2002 by Viz, the English edition. It was published in 1997 I believe in Japan. So Episode Zero is a manga that covers the backstory of all five pilots and a little and a of Relena. And then the edition that is put out also includes a sort of teaser story that sets up a post-canon adventure that I don't think has actually concluded in any subsequent manga.
Kat 30:54
The head screenwriter of Gundam Wing, wrote the manga Episode Zero, Katsuyuki Sumizawa, who, he writes a little postscript at the end, where he thinks you should go back and watch all of Gundam Wing and Endless Waltz with this new context. This is originally material that was written to be animated in the show and around Episode 27 and that's when we got the recap episodes instead. He explains it as the production schedule got crazy, and he left and then he returned to Gundam Wing, but I'm not sure if he like means with this manga? Or if he returned to the production of Gundam Wing. Anyway, seemed like a really dramatic behind the scenes production with a really intense crunch schedule.
Kat 31:37
So it starts with Duo -- I don't know should I just summarize these each?
Caitlin 31:41
No, let's just talk about the craziest thing in each one.
Cathy 31:45
I would say that Quatre's is hands down the weirdest of them.
Caitlin 31:50
It does get into space reproduction.
Kat 31:52
So Quatre's backstory is that he has 29 sisters, and they were all test tube babies because living in space caused unnamed reproductive issues. And his mom desperately wanted -- not a son, which is, I thought it was a weird gender thing, but it's not she just wanted to have a kid and then you see her giving birth. And Quatre's dad being like, "God, you're so stupid. You knew this would kill you!" and then she dies. [laughter] So it wasn't even that it was just, she just really wanted to have a kid naturally.
Caitlin 32:28
Here's my question. When they say test tube babies, what do they mean? Which part of that, which part of the fertility process was augmented? Are they grown in like artificial wombs?
Cathy 32:39
I think they are ground in artificial wombs, yes,
Kat 32:41
I think so [crosstalk]
Mallory 32:42
Like, I'm thinking of the Evangelion --
Cathy 32:44
Yeah!
Mallory 32:45
When you see all the Rei clones, that's what I'm thinking of.
Cathy 32:47
That's exactly what I was going to say, it's a Rei tank, like it's a tank full of Quatre Raberba Winner's sisters, that's what happened.
Kat 32:54
So Quatre is full of angst but not because his birth killed his mother, but because he also thinks he's the test tube baby and thus incredibly disposable.
Caitlin 33:04
I don't understand why they wouldn't have told him that he was born naturally.
Kat 33:09
I think his dad might just be real dumb.
Cathy 33:13
And, like, honestly, this, so I had completely forgotten this backstory to Quatre. And, you know, it's how he needs the Maganac Force who I think kidnap him, right?
Kat 33:23
Yes for ransom. [crosstalk]
Cathy 33:24
Or they kidnap the Winners' shuttle and yeah, Rashid literally has to punch Quatre in the face to get him to shut up about being a test tube baby. And then that's like, what starts Quatre down this path of like, accepting himself. Why I find this so surprising is, I have internalized, like Caitlin, all of the backstories in Episode Zero. Like, I remember everything. I had totally forgotten that this was Quatre's backstory. It's so unlike the Quatre that we see in the series, like the personality he has?
Kat 33:56
I think it's because nobody writes, like, nobody really wrote a lot of angsty Quatre fic.
Caitlin 34:03
Yeah that's true
Kat 34:03
Like, Duo's backstory of the Maxwell, Maxwell church massacre, and like his first friend who he took his name from, Solo, dying of a virus.
Cathy 34:12
Which is not in Episode Zero. And that was in-
Mallory 34:15
It's like in the back, in at the end of his story.
Kat 34:18
Yeah, in the back.
Cathy 34:18
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kat 34:20
It's like one sentence.
Caitlin 34:22
The thing was Quatre's story to me is that reminds me almost of like a 70s sci fi manga?
Cathy 34:27
Yes, absolutely.
Caitlin 34:28
Like it's like Hagio Moto, which is a compliment, but also it's very goofy in 90s Gundam Wing form.
Cathy 34:39
It's incredibly goofy, but actually very important because it explains a whole bunch of plot stuff like why the Maganacs are there, what their tie is to Quatre which is that they don't even have --. I thought, I think I had originally thought that they were somehow tied to the Wwinner family, but they're really not, right?
Caitlin 34:56
Right.
Cathy 34:56
The only connection they have is Quatre, who then assumes Rashid's goggles, and then like assumes the captaincy, essentially, of the force. And so like all of that is actually quite important to explain how Quatre gets to where he is in the beginning of the series. And I just remembered none of it.
Kat 35:12
It was kind of like weird rereading this again, because I had osmosed all of these backstories so hard, so reading the little note, that was like this should recontextualize the whole series, but I can't really remember some of these things like Heero was raised by an assassin.
Mallory 35:27
Trowa doesn't have a name.
Caitlin 35:29
We also always knew Wufei's wife.
Cathy 35:32
Yeah.
Caitlin 35:32
who was a better fighter than he was and so she took the name of the, this warrior God, and then he calls his Gundam that.
Kat 35:40
I don't like that he beats her in a fight. I didn't remember that. And I think I, I jettisoned it from my brain.
Cathy 35:46
Me too.
Kat 35:46
I think it sucks [crosstalk]
Caitlin 35:47
Yeah it's stupid.
Cathy 35:48
I saw the scene and I instantly forgot that I read it again, because it's wrong. That shouldn't have happened.
Kat 35:52
Yeah,
Mallory 35:52
yeah.
Caitlin 35:52
And they're in this like, so how would you describe the clothing that they wear?
Cathy 35:57
Oh, my God. So we open up the Wufei chapter. And it's a colony, which at least here they explain, you know, they basically forced this whole bunch of like, I guess a whole line of families out of China because they were getting too strong and they forced them onto the L5 colony. But it starts off and it's like, Meilan and Wufei in what I can only describe as all of the clothes? Like all of the Chinese matrimonial clothes that have ever Chinese matrimonied. [laughter]
Caitlin 36:30
Every time period of Chinese bridal dress
Cathy 36:35
Wufei is in a head dress, which I normally associate with, like old palace counselor people? but it's like way too big for him and does not fit him.
Caitlin 36:48
She calls him like a scholar guy or something too right?
Cathy 36:52
Yes.
Kat 36:52
Right. Cuz he's back from boarding school just to get married.
Cathy 36:55
Yeah. So like, it just was really funny. I wasn't expecting historical accuracy, because this is not a period piece. But like, I also just did not expect to be assaulted by like, a wardrobe.
Caitlin 37:07
If you put them in every single costume from all periods, one of them [laughter] must be correct.
Cathy 37:15
Ultimately, what I find the funniest thing about Episode Zero is that it does this like cameo thing where you just sort of meets characters who you know are gonna show up in the series. [laughs]
Kat 37:26
I was gonna say like, Sally Po shows up in Wufei's story, because of course, Sally Po shows up in Wufei's story. [laughs]
Mallory 37:31
Yeah
Kat 37:32
And Cath-Catherine shows up as like a footnote panel, essentially. And Trowa's like, Oh, yeah, she was there too. And war is bad.
Cathy 37:39
And then it turns out that Zechs had met Relena when she was young. Heero had met Relena when they were both young. Zechs ends up saying something to Relena that then Relena repeats to Heero when they meet again? in episode one. So all of these things are just like, Hey, remember this? And like my answer to that was literally no, I don't remember it until the footnotes told me.
Kat 38:02
I was really annoyed with Heero's, like with Relena's backstory, because it was all tied up in something that Heero did and not the panel where her mom was like, "Wow, she's so quiet, because she's incredibly traumatized by the violence she's experienced as a child." Like that's -- can we dig into this? [laughing]
Mallory 38:21
Yeah, that's what's interesting.
Kat 38:23
Thinking about how long it must have taken people to scan these things. Because it's like, thank you.
Caitlin 38:29
Yeah. And then to upload them because you can only there you have, you could only put like a couple of images on each page. And then you have to make a new page, because it takes so long for things to load.
Kat 38:39
I feel like I mostly absorbed all of these stories as they were recycled to me in fanfic. And that's why like Heero's is like, oh, he was raised by an assassin and like the Maxwell church showed up in so many fics.
Cathy 38:54
Duo's was definitely I think the one that comes up the most. The Midi Une story is actually the bulk of Trowa's but not something that comes up very often probably because she's a woman or slash girl, actually, she's a girl. And
Kat 39:08
But I do remember that Midi Une had fan theories like she's actually Lady Une.
Cathy 39:13
But she's not, yeah. She is, she's utterly unrelated to Lady Une and like, that's another one where it's like, it explains nothing about Trowa. Like that was one of the backstories where I was like, Okay, thanks. Nothing about that, like, told me anything about Trowa.
Kat 39:28
Yeah, I feel like his mercenary past is hinted at. I think also Duo's was probably the one that gets the least developed in, like main canon.
Cathy 39:37
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Kat 39:38
Like we meet the Maganacs and we know that Trowa has a mystery past ,but we don't really know what's motivating, what's motivating Duo.
Caitlin 39:48
It explains why Duo wears that priest outfit. Come on.
Kat 39:51
And the braid.
Caitlin 39:52
We needed that we needed that. Yeah. And the braid we need that.
Kat 39:55
No, I like it. I think it gives you like the most information that you don't know already -- if you hadn't consumed like 1000 fanworks, before the end of the series aired in the US.
Cathy 40:07
Ultimately one of my issues is I really don't like stories where it turns out that people have met before as children. It's one of my least favorite anime tropes that happens a lot.
Caitlin 40:16
I hate that sort of retcon 'cause like then what do you do with their entire character development that you actually saw?
Cathy 40:21
Yeah, and
Caitlin 40:22
You know?
Cathy 40:23
and it's sort of nonsensical here because like, Relena like, never acts as if she had met Heero before in this series. So it was sort of like why was this helpful? I mean, I guess it kind of helps explain why Zechs knew where Relena was, but I really disliked it.
Caitlin 40:37
I mean, I can assume, I can assume from the show that Zechs knew or knew of Relena already. Like I wasn't, I'm not shocked by that.
Cathy 40:46
Yeah.
Caitlin 40:47
But Relena meeting Heero as a child is
Kat 40:52
Or Heero meeting Treize?
Caitlin 40:53
Hackey. Hackneyed, hackneyed. That's the word.
Kat 40:56
Like Treize would definitely remember which, like small murderous child was gunning for him.
Caitlin 41:02
You'd think you would remember that.
Cathy 41:04
Before we end this, you know, Episode Zero is one of many of the extended Gundam Wing manga canon, including like, Blind Target, and then some other things that I don't remember. And of course, as we've mentioned before, I think the whole entire rewrite of Gundam Wing which is known as New Mobile Report Gundam Wing Endless Waltz: Glory of the Defeated, [laughing] the full name all of which
Caitlin 41:29
I love it.
Cathy 41:30
all of which has a slightly different gloss on the events of Gundam Wing. So you know, Gundam Wing is more similar to like Star Wars than it is to other things like Naruto, for example. I do think it's fascinating because like, this is like, Frozen Teardrop which I keep referencing. It's canon but it's not really so like, you know, fans take all these things to be different degrees of canonicity, which I've always found really fascinating.
Caitlin 41:55
So like this is, this is a really common anime marketing strategy is to create these separate franchising storylines. And I mean, there's, there's a whole theory of it, you can read about it, if you look up Anime's Media Mix, which is by Mark Steinberg, or Azuma Hiroki's Otaku: Japan's Database Animals, I think, is the English title. And then there is an article in Mechademia, that's a translation of Ōtsuka Eiji's Theory of Narrative Consumption, where the idea is always that you cross market your show by selling manga, or by selling novelizations. And there's an expectation in the Japanese market that these don't need to be exactly the same story. Whereas in the US market, in the Hollywood market, there's a sense that the novelization needs to be an exact retelling. In the Japanese, in the anime market, there's a lot more tolerance for changes to the original series in each different version.
Kat 42:53
I think Episode Zero is a little different than the extended Gundam Wing universe because I mean, Frozen Teardrop was also written by the head writer, the same, the same author, but because it was material that was meant for the animated show, I think a lot of people take that as like more canon-canon, the Wikipedia for this manga definitely is like it's more Canon Canon. And I do think that's true fandom-wise.
Caitlin 43:19
Yeah, I'll take it as canon.
Cathy 43:20
I do think it's one of those moments here it's like, I guess it's more canon, then, you know, I'm trying to think of it another example, like then Blind Target or Battlefield of Pacifists, right, both of which, I think Battle, I think both of those are either sequel or side stories. But I, I mean, I think when I was first consuming Gundam Wing, I took grounds, I took Episode Zero as canon. And now that I'm reading, I'm just like, it doesn't have to be canon. I can believe whatever it is that I want to believe, you know, which I think is
Caitlin 43:51
Nothing has to be canon!
Cathy 43:53
Yeah.
Kat 43:53
All right. And on that note, take what you want and throw the rest away. Thanks so much for listening.
Mallory 44:04
Tell us what you thought of these episodes. You can find us on Twitter @TallgeesePod. We also have full transcriptions on our Tumblr, UntitledTallgeesePodcast.tumblr.com. And follow us on Instagram at @UntitledTallgeesePodcast for fandom artifacts, sneak peeks and more. Until next time!
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[TRANSCRIPT] Episode 15: The Peacecraft Institute for Girls Who Can't Craft Peace Good
00:00
[Midi version of "Just Communication" by Two-Mix plays and begins to fade as Mallory speaks]
Mallory 00:03
Hello, and welcome to Episode 15 of Untitled Tallgeese Podcast. I'm Mallory and I'll be your host for this episode, and I'm joined as always by Kat, Cathy, and Caitlin. Today we're talking about Gundam Wing episodes 29 and 30.
So Episode 29 is titled "The Heroine of the Battlefield," and unfortunately, it opens with a bunch of old dudes debating whether to allow the despotic Romefeller Foundation to control their respective countries. Fortunately, it's then revealed that it's a bunch of old dudes and Relena, notably sitting at the head of the table. She convinces them instead to follow the Sanc Kingdom and attain true peace.
Meanwhile, Heero and Quatre have a moment of joy on the beach with some dogs. But, as with most joy these days, it's fleeting because soldiers are rolling out with orders to execute them. They meet up with some GI Joes—I mean, OZ soldiers, and they learn that there's a bounty on their heads. Sally Po, meanwhile, is piloting a carrier with Heero's Wing Gundam, but she is surrounded by enemies so she crashes and is captured by OZ. Noin aids Sally Po's escape, they bond over their fondness for reckless Gundam pilots, and their propensity to kick the shit out of bad people, and Mallory gains a new Gundam Wing ship, exciting!
We learn that in addition to her peacemaking activities as a leader of the Sanc Kingdom, Relena has opened an institute—name TBD—and has accepted into it a student from the Romefeller Foundation, or Duke Dermail's granddaughter named Dorothy Catalonia. Three things to know about Dorothy: she has amazing eyebrows, drives a gigantic car, and loves war.
Episode 30 is called "The Reunion with Relena," so you can guess what's about to happen. Heero and Quatre has met up with the so-called Treize Faction, and Heero decides to work with them because he's a soldier and that's what soldiers do, fight or something. Quatre refuses to take part, so he walks into the nearby city and watches OZ troops harass an old man. He then befriends that old man and in some convenient plot exposition, the man tells Quatre about the Sanc Kingdom and its pacifist evangelizing. He puts two and two together and realizes that he and Heero have to get to the Sanc Kingdom to protect Relena and help her spread pacifist ideals. Heero catches a glimpse of citizens fleeing the chaos and decides to defend the city. He's outgunned by Virgo mobile dolls, saved by Quatre, and picked up by Noin.
In a completely different world, Relena is in what appears to be an all-female Institute debating pacifism and war with Dorothy who, again, loves war, very pro-war. Naturally Relena wants to be best friends with her—girl, you can't love her into changing. Relena's trusted advisor Pagan tells her Heero Yuy is back in town and Noin is bringing him here! The episode ends with an injured Heero walking down the airplane steps while she watches, chin in hand.
In the last podcast episodes, I was wondering like, where Relena was and what she'd been doing, and it's fun 'cause now I know! So let's talk about Relena, because she was a big part of these episodes, where she had like, completely disappeared when the Gundam pilots went to space.
Kat 03:14
I am fascinated by her being both the head of the country and running an institute and also being a student at that Institute where she's ostensibly learning to lead a country?
Cathy 03:26
And she's also teaching in one of the scenes in Episode 30?
Mallory 03:29
Yeah, she's leading a discussion at least, but we don't see any actual teachers.
Caitlin 03:36
It's anime rules, you guys. The students are the teachers, the students are the chairmen, the students, [laughs] the students are the presidents of the country. It's... there are no adults here.
Cathy 03:49
I do feel like when you first meet her in Episode 29, she felt like she had matured a lot. You know, she has her hair up in her classic "leader of the Sanc Kingdom" outfit, which is really different than her "hair down, tiny little braids connected in the back," school girl version. She gives this speech which, you know, this is not her first time making a speech, but it might be the first time where she makes a speech as the leader as opposed to a rebellious school girl who's trying to overthrow everything and anything around her. And you know, one of the first things she says is something like freedom is a right that everyone has. And I thought her next line was going to be something like so you know, people need to be given the right to choose to fight as well. But actually, her next line was something much more complicated and mature in a way, which is that even peace requires the type of sacrifice, right, like people need to tolerate each other and it just felt very much like a girl coming into her own as an adult.
Mallory 04:48
Yeah, I mean, you're you're finally seeing her taking everything that she has learned through her experience and relationships with the various Gundam pilots, her dad and her kind of realizing what legacy she's like stepping into.
Kat 05:04
Boy, I wonder what her mom is doing right now? Guess we'll never know.
Cathy 05:08
I don't think we ever see her mother again.
Caitlin 05:10
Yeah, we'll never, we never see her again, I'm pretty sure.
Kat 05:13
In Relena's speech, she also said, "people cannot be given complete freedom," which didn't feel like a very Relena-y statement but I guess it was also maybe there to show that she's maybe moved beyond her initial naivety?
Mallory 05:28
I think it's her kind of realizing that, like you were saying, Cathy, you expect her to stick with the idealism that we have come to expect from her. And this is her saying, like, no, actually people need rules and society kind of needs like boundaries. And that boundary should come with like tolerating one another and our differences.
Caitlin 05:50
And the institute is founded specifically to teach the pacifism of the Sanc Kingdom and her philosophy, which she feels that she is transmitting from her forefathers in a way. So it does seem like the deliberate program of Relena and the Sanc Kingdom right now is to export this pacifism and to train the new generation in their philosophy, which does support this idea that freedom can't be totally free, that it requires rules and training and education.
Kat 06:23
I think we get to see the evolution of her in three different ways? Like, we still see her as a student, as this government leader. And then we see sort of the reflection of her and the Sanc Kingdom's influence on the villagers, which was kind of an interesting choice to me, versus showing her pontificating more, which is kind of how we've seen all the leaders thus far.
Cathy 06:50
Yeah. Although I don't know if the people were actually reacting to her so much as the fact that clearly the Sanc Kingdom has been around for a bit, you know, there are these other old guys so.
Kat 07:01
But they were from different countries. They weren't Sanc Kingdom dudes.
Cathy 07:04
But clearly they were they hadn't come into pacifism in the last couple of days, while Relena was leading. And I felt the same way about the village. It seemed like everybody there had this studied tradition of pacifism that I think Relena has become a figurehead for, but I don't think it was just because of her.
Kat 07:23
I guess I sort of saw Relena more as becoming the figurehead of the Sanc Kingdom. So whenever one mentioned, like references, the Sanc Kingdom, like our mysterious country that we're not going to name wouldn't have been able to do this without the support of the Sanc Kingdom. So in that way, it is really Lena,
Mallory 07:40
I think what that exchange that you were talking about Kat was trying to show us like, it's very convenient plot development for us as viewers and for the show, because it's like, yeah, the Sanc Kingdom has had a lot of influence on these areas, you and Quatre are kind of being caught up with the reinvigorating, of like pacifist ideals that Relena has kind of brought
Kat 08:04
And what Relena's been doing all this time, like it's sort of this is how much the Sanc Kingdom has grown? Because before this, before Zechs like, liberated it like it was just another occupied country. So this is the Peacecraft's return is really what makes it notable.
Cathy 08:21
I did not get that sense. But I kind of just thought that, you know, I think the Sanc Kingdom has always been the last remaining outpost of the idea of pacifism. And I sort of read a lot of the people in episode 30, the mayor whose name I don't remember, and then the old guy who talks to Quatre, as harkening back to this tradition of pacifism, and they get their support now from the Sanc Kingdom and Relena, reinvigorating that and becoming a point of strength, now that they're actually actively being attacked by the Romefellers. But I didn't read it as like they were inspired by her,
Kat 09:01
The OZ soldier literally, is talking to the mayor. And he's like, wow, it's really convenient for you guys to suddenly become pascifists. This now that we need you to support us in this attack and your occupying forces have been become inconvenient. So it's obviously new.
Cathy 09:19
Oh, I didn't read that conversation that way but maybe that's just how I read it. Like, I read it as him being like, "Oh, well, you weren't against us when we were protecting you. But now that we need your help and support to fight, you're a pacifist."
Caitlin 09:31
So I don't think these positions are totally opposed. I don't think these readings are totally opposed. I think that it is essentially, they clearly have an existing idea about pacifism.
Kat 09:44
Right.
Caitlin 09:45
Obviously, they knew about the Sanc Kingdom before. Obviously, they probably felt that way when OZ was oppressing them as well, but they didn't have the support.
Kat 09:53
Right, I agree with that.
Caitlin 09:53
So Relena offers the support by reviving the Sanc Kingdom which has been liberated by Zechs. The Sanc Kingdom itself is able to offer support to these other countries which allows them to oppose OZ
Kat 10:05
and become... pacifists
Caitlin 10:07
I also think that part of the reference here is to Japan in the post-war period when militarism has been outlawed. And even though in that case, like historically that's imposed from above by the American-written constitution, it still was for a very long time something that the people themselves very much supported and endorsed, and took as a symbol of pride. Mostly because in wartime, the people who suffer the most are those people who like the villagers are just these these little peons, these little nobodies. The war never benefits the little people.
Mallory 10:50
Aside from like Relena and what she's been doing I also want to talk about the institute because it wasn't named, right? I don't remember if there was a name that was given to it. Like is it just the Relena Peacecraft Institute for Peace or something? [laughing]
Kat 11:07
For Girls Who Want to Peace Good? Yeah. [laughing]
Caitlin 11:09
If that's not what it's called, that is now what it's called.
Mallory 11:12
And I'm a little confused, like Pagan is, about what Dorothy is even doing in the Sanc Kingdom because she's Duke Dermail's granddaughter. She loves war.
Caitlin 11:25
She LOVES war, you guys.
Kat 11:28
Did you know? Did you hear?
Caitlin 11:30
She loves war so much.
Mallory 11:31
Every, like, camera angle on her face, the expressions on her face just remind me of Treize, and I can't tell if it's just sort of animation...
Caitlin 11:42
The eyebrows.
Mallory 11:42
Yeah, if it's the eyebrows.
Caitlin 11:43
It's the eyebrows.
Mallory 11:44
or if the show is trying to tell me something about like who she is and her deviousness?
Cathy 11:49
They are definitely trying to tell you something about her.
Mallory 11:51
So
Kat 11:51
Yeah,
Mallory 11:52
Okay, because I was like, Is this just a rich people thing? Or is this--
Cathy 11:55
It is also a rich people thing. [laughing]
Kat 11:58
Her giant ass car is amazing—when they show the aerial shot of her car next to Relena's.
Mallory & Caitlin & Cathy 12:04
Yeah!
Kat 12:04
And it's three times as big.
Caitlin 12:06
And then, and she's driving herself too, isn't she?
Kat 12:09
Yeah, she was driving herself.
Caitlin 12:10
I love that she doesn't have a driver. So when these episodes started, one of my thoughts about Relena was that, like, I'm looking at Relena doing her peace thing. And I thought to myself, I would like Relena a little bit more if she had a little bit more of a shiftiness or like a planning or like a vibe where there's something underneath this like --
Mallory 12:30
Like a cunning?
Caitlin 12:31
Yeah, like if she was slightly cunning, and then Dorothy showed up and I was like, I regret that thought. [laughing] I want pure Relena naivete, pacifism, Dorothy is too much for me.
Cathy 12:43
What I love about Dorothy is, I don't actually think she does anything particularly mean girl in these two episodes at least? She just comes off really direct and really extreme and really earnest, right? Like, she
Kat 12:55
Oh, I thought she was being very condescending. [laughs]
Cathy 12:58
I also love Dorothy, so part of this is a bias. But I think like she, she, she's just so direct about like what it is that she believes. I guess you could read her as condescending. But if you don't read her as condescending, she's just very directly tells, like Relena what she believes, what she's there for, but also that she respects what Relena's doing. And so it's like, it's almost like what do you do with her? You can't really do anything with her. She's a weirdo.
Caitlin 13:23
I actually think that if we were in a real high school, if we were away from all the dynamics of politics and stuff, and they showed us what the school is really like, Dorothy would not be a mean girl because she's too weird.
Cathy 13:34
She's so weird!
Caitlin 13:34
Like she's too intense. She's has no ability to modulate her behavior. She can't like, command other people very well, probably because she's so direct.
Kat 13:44
Yeah, nobody else in that classroom was like, "oh, wow, she's got great ideas!" [laughing] Like when Heero was just saying whatever bullshit.
Mallory 13:50
Yeah, like everyone looks really perturbed by her when she is talking about how much she loves war. And I guess it makes sense, because everyone is there to learn peace? [crosstalk]
Kat 14:00
Learn how to be a pacifist? [laughing] Yeah.
Caitlin 14:03
Also, here's my question. I feel like people in real life love war because they can profit from it or because it gives them power or prestige. Are there really that many people who just love war for war?
Mallory 14:17
No.
Caitlin 14:17
Is this a real opinion?!
Kat 14:18
So it sort of felt like the weird like evolutionary psych dudes that are like, "Oh, I gotta eat meat because we're made to fight and hunt!" [laughing] Like, you're noble, so it's about war. This is just what man is made to do.
Cathy 14:35
Yeah, I do think there's obviously a through line—Mallory, was it you who said this, like is Dorothy's observe remind you of Treize? Absolutely. I do think there is a through line where Dorothy represents the opposite of total pacifism, but not in the aggressive male sense that I think Romefeller or OZ or any of the fighting is supposed to be. It's like what if we had not total pacifism, but a woman was doing it. And I think that's what [laughing]
Caitlin 15:04
What [laughing]
Cathy 15:05
I remember my thesis that like nobody who wrote Gundam Wing has ever met a woman, and then you come up with Dorothy.
Mallory 15:11
The way that gender is portrayed in these episodes really struck me because that image in Episode 30 of Heero in the middle of a jungle battle, like he's sweaty, and in green, and brown and shadows, and then it cuts like pretty much directly from the middle of war to Relena and her little Institute surrounded by women, and everyone is in pink and white talking about pacifism. The dynamics of that sort of male idea of war and battle versus feminine ideals of peace and being thoughtful, just really struck me because it was just so stark like that contrast,
Kat 15:56
I really liked the visual of him popping out of the trees in the Leo. And again, I think this episode is all about, yeah, these contrasts and parallels. It's sort of like, here's the reality of war versus the sort of ivory tower theoretical discussion that they're having.
Caitlin 16:13
Yeah, I also think the problem that Dorothy is sort of suggesting to Relena is that what are you going to do when war comes to you. Like, what is going to happen when your pacifism has to fight, has to be confronted with this? And the solution seems to be that the Gundam pilots are going to come to her and rescue her [laughing]
Kat 16:31
Right.
Mallory 16:31
I mean,
Caitlin 16:33
Which isn't a great solution for pacifism in real life, if you're trying implement it.
Kat 16:37
Well, there's that push pull with them, because... that's why I thought she was a little condescending, because Relena pushes back and she goes, Well, you might think that my ideas are naive. And Dorothy is just like, Yeah, but people love to fight.
Cathy 16:49
I do want to say that despite this division, Noin and Sally managed to crossover between these two worlds in a way, because they seem like they know what they're doing and what they came for in Episode 29 when Noin comes to rescue Sally, like both of them seem like they had plans and those plans intersect and they're clearly trying to talk about things strategically. But it's about this intersection between war and peace, like, you know, male- and female-ness, if you want to use those words, and like, adult and, you know, adulation of the Gundam pilots will also recognizing that they're total child weirdos who are forced into fighting.
Mallory 17:23
Yeah
Cathy 17:23
And so I think they're amazing characters that thread their way through Episode 29, and of course, Noin's kind of sting at the end of Episode 30 as well.
Mallory 17:31
I was going to bring up Noin and Sally Poe and the portrayal of gender because yeah, they're really cool and it's, you know, I love a cool fighting lady, so.
Kat 17:41
They get their own, like, mono colored, like shwing! moment Noins jumps, jumps through the window.
Mallory & Caitlin & Cathy 17:48
Yeah!
Kat 17:48
I was like, Yes!
Caitlin 17:49
Yeah, that was good.
Mallory 17:49
I was like, oh, the show, the show is is signaling something to me, this is a meet cute. But the thing is that you can also contrast the way that they are sort of generally styled and present themselves, very much so with the way that Relena is generally portrayed and shown. So Noin and Sally Po have both, as far as I can remember, never worn a skirt. Like they both wear pants. They're around mostly men all the time. They fight in a way that Relena has never been shown to be able to, I guess? And there's like the sense that the show is telling me that they're not feminine in the way that like Relena is feminine, you know, like they're women, but they're different than what we think of as most women.
Cathy 18:40
Yes, and this is also why I love Dorothy, but I will not spoil it for you.
Caitlin 18:44
I think that Relena's supposed to be showing a strength that isn't from the battlefield. Whether we could call it a feminine strength or not, she is supposed to be, she is being shown as strong in a way that is similar to the strength that Sally Po and Noin have, it's just that their strength is expressed through fighting because that's what their background is in. And so I think it's... yeah, no I just think it's showing us a variety of different women in some ways because maybe that's just one thing that Gundam writers could understand was that some, some women can do fighting and that's hot. [laughing]
Mallory 19:20
I mean it is.
Kat 19:22
I like that Relena shows that switch too though. She has the traditional garb or whatever that Noin, Noin gave her and that's what she's presenting herself as like the civic leader but like she still gets to be like feminine and herself too. So she's retaining that part of herself in a way that maybe like soldiers wouldn't be able to.
Mallory 19:47
Right.
Kat 19:47
Like she gets to stay soft and that's that visual pop?
Mallory 19:51
Yeah, like maybe Noin and, like the show saying Noin and Sally Po are just surrounded by men and so they must act this way in order to be respected by them.
Cathy 20:00
I kind of see what Mallory's saying but I don't think it's men, I think it's war. Like I think the show is saying that...
Mallory & Kat 20:05
Hmm, yeah.
Cathy 20:06
Noin and Sally are touched by war and they can't do anything about it and so they have to sort of pursue this path. I think Noin even says something like you know, I'm going to protect Relena or I'm going to protect the Sanc Kingdom even if I have to play dirty or there's some line like that, right?
Kat 20:19
"I'll be the shadow."
Caitlin 20:19
She's the one who can dirty herself, yeah.
Cathy 20:21
Exactly. And so I think that's the purity and beauty of Relena is, I don't think she ever actually pilots a mobile suit in the entirety of this series.
Kat 20:31
No, I'm pretty sure she does not.
Cathy 20:32
And that's very important right, which is that she is purity and she is pacifism and she is not fighting.
Kat 20:38
That image of Relena is so important to Noin, too, which I think... her devotion to the Peacecrafts is so intense and this desire to uphold this pacifistic ideal through fighting—
Caitlin 20:50
Wait a second, where the heck is Zechs?
Cathy 20:53
Where is he?
Kat 20:53
I've been wondering that, yeah.
Caitlin 20:55
Where is Zechs?!
Mallory 20:57
Is Zechs still in space? Because—
Cathy 20:59
That's where we left him.
Mallory 21:00
Yeah, he was in space the last time we saw him.
Caitlin 21:01
Maybe he's just doing, he's just doing diplomacy.
Mallory 21:04
Up there in the colonies?
Caitlin 21:05
He's out, he's out talking to people. My headcanon currently for Noin is that she's in love Zechs, but Zechs is too ideal of a figure for her to touch physically, so she hooks up with women. [laughing]
Kat 21:20
That's fair.
Caitlin 21:20
This is my current narration of Noin's sexuality.
Kat 21:26
That's what Noin is telling herself anyway.
Mallory 21:29
[laughing] Yeah. So I also wanted to talk about Heero and Quatre's adventures after landing back on Earth in Episode 29 because a scene with the dogs was
Caitlin 21:39
So cute!
Mallory 21:40
So sweet! Like there, I think there were a lot of really strangely sweet, cheesy moments.
Caitlin 21:45
The beach scene is like some of the best looking animation for the two of them too.
Cathy 21:50
Yes!
Caitlin 21:51
There's that one closeup of Heero's face where he's playing with the dogs, he's so cute.
Kat 21:55
His little eyelashes!
Cathy 21:57
Yes Episode 29 was -
Caitlin 21:58
Yeah!
Cathy 21:58
- so well animated. And I get that it's because I think it's the second season debut/opening episode. And I think if you were to try to create, like what Heero Yuy's supposed to look like all the time, if he's on model, it's every scene in Episode 29. He looks so good in Episode 29. Like, he looks a little bit like flinty and hard, but like also kind of cute and like wild in the same way that Dorothy says that he's wild later in Episode 30. And they give him these little eyelashes. And they always make the light fall on his face in a way that's really nice and same thing with like...
Kat 22:32
His lips are a little soft, too!
Cathy 22:33
Yeah! There's a lot of really great expressions. And then, even with Noin and Sally later, I think they did such a great job animating both of them so that you could see expressions pass through their face, which you don't always see in every episode of Gundam Wing. And I'm thinking specifically, I think at the end of Episode 29, when Noin pops out of that suit, and there's the reflection of water against both the Cancer in the background and her skin. And I was like, wow, somebody really put some budget into Episode 29. Cuz you're not gonna see that again.
Caitlin 23:05
To be fair, Noin gets a lot of sexy animation moments. I think I posted one somewhere where she's posing with that motorcycle, and it's literally like a 15 second shot of her just on the motorcycle.
Kat 23:18
She's like the coolest fucking character.
Mallory 23:20
She really is.
Caitlin 23:21
Yeah Noin gets all the sexy Cool Girl shots.
Mallory 23:24
And her style is so cool. Like she always looks so on point and has big WLW energy with Sally Po.
Caitlin 23:33
Sally Po doesn't usually look AS cool.
Kat 23:35
I know we've talked about sort of racialization/not-racialization of Sally Po but I did feel like they were giving me like Sally Po is Chinese or of some Chinese descent with the animation [laughing]
Caitlin 23:46
Really? How so?
Kat 23:48
The eye shape is like totally different from most of the other characters. Except Wufei.
Cathy 23:54
I agree her eye shape is Wufei's eye shape.
Caitlin 23:57
I guess that is true, yeah.
Mallory 23:58
It's very, it's become a lot more slant- slanted? Speaking of racializing characters, the way that the Treize faction was portrayed too.
Kat 24:07
The like, de facto Romefeller people they meet on the beach in the tents that are like we don't want to kill you. And then the Treize Faction dudes -- it's like you're getting some real GI Joe-ass face animations there.
Mallory 24:20
Yeah and especially in the dub, they have like really thick Southern drawls and [laughs]
Cathy 24:25
Oh god
Mallory 24:26
Like that, coupled with the fatigues and the warfare in the jungle, like
Kat 24:31
The glasses, the sunglasses.
Mallory 24:32
The sunglasses, like really makes you think like GI Joe cartoons specifically. And also then, the Vietnam War? And I'm, I'm not sure if that's just because I am -- I, as an American and a Western viewer, have been so inundated with this kind of imagery that when I see it in a show in which the context is different, it still hits me that way?
Kat 25:00
I really want to believe that like animators... maybe not. I don't really think GI Joe is a particularly popular cultural import to Japan. Although they did have a --
Cathy 25:11
I guess one thing to note is apparently one of their animation series was made in Japan?
Kat 25:18
Oh!
Cathy 25:18
Like they outsource the animation to TOEI in Japan.
Caitlin 25:22
Yes
Cathy 25:23
So it's not that crazy to believe that either somebody had that experience or knew somebody who had that experience or watched it or had experience with it because of that.
Caitlin 25:33
Yeah, someone could have worked on it, literally.
Mallory 25:35
So do you think the show is like then trying to tell me that Heero and Quatre are in Gundam Wing America? Or is it just like, these are just random soldiers in a random jungle?
Cathy 25:46
I think the show has completely let go and lost any touch it had with real geography at this point. [laughing]
Caitlin 25:53
Yeah wait, where, where are they?
Cathy 25:55
What a good question!
Mallory 25:55
I don't know, they're in some unnamed country.
Kat 25:57
I assumed they were European because they're like, all of these other countries are being influenced by the Sanc Kingdom. So I sort of assumed they were like other small fake European countries. I don't know why I assumed that. [laughs]
Caitlin 26:09
Yes. In the famous jungles of Europe [laughing]
Kat 26:12
Well, I don't know. That's what I like.
Cathy 26:16
Well, to be fair -
Kat 26:16
But that looks like a European hamlet, so
Mallory 26:20
It is
Caitlin 26:20
Yeah, there's. It could very well be European. I think that's a valid interpretation [crosstalk]
Cathy 26:23
We don't know what the earth looks like in AC 195 okay? [laughing]
Caitlin 26:28
Yeah, there's, that could be why they went to the colonies because of global warming creating jungles in Europe. [laughing]
Cathy 26:34
I really appreciated that episode 29 was a callback to essentially the opening of Gundam Wing. And again, this is because I think it's like the revamp season two. So if you read, if you like, look at Episode 29 in its whole structure like again, Gundam Wing. Like Heero's Gundam is in the ocean, they have to trawl it and dig it back up, you know? And like there's In fact, somebody who comes in and tries to stop that from being dug up the same way that Heero and Duo have that fight over retrieving Wing Gundam from the bottom of the water. And then, the episode also ends with a girl who came out of a limo this time, Dorothy's big yellow limo, and it's Dorothy yelling into nothingness.
Caitlin 27:12
Yeah [laughing]
Cathy 27:12
It's time for war to come, instead of like Heero to come and find her and kill her?
Kat 27:17
Instead of getting shot by the water, they get to hang out with dogs?
Cathy 27:20
Exactly
Kat 27:21
That was a nice change.
Mallory 27:22
Yeah.
Cathy 27:22
So like, I think there's all these interesting little callbacks and but the really cool thing is, you know, the person or the actors you think, who have agency now, starting in Episode 29, have completely changed. I think if you had asked anybody who started the show, it was the Gundam pilots. But now it's like everybody around them is really the people who have agency and are using them like little chess pieces around the board. So it's just like this really cool series reset, where we're kind of like, like, do you remember when the series opened? So I just really loved that about Episode 29. I truly think it's like one of the best episodes Gundam Wing made.
Caitlin 27:58
Agreed! I like it, because of the dogs. They're cute.
Kat 28:02
It's a great episode.
Mallory 28:03
Yeah, Heero gets to smile!
Cathy 28:05
He threw a pineapple which is not normally how one plays fetch but go on Heero. [laughing]
Kat 28:10
Ah that European pineapple!
Caitlin 28:11
You use what have, he's resourceful.
Mallory 28:13
The famous European pineapple. [laughing]
Kat 28:18
I wanted to say since you said Episode 29 is sort of like a reset point that episode 30 was fascinating in terms of editing, because I think they were doing a lot of weird kind of nonlinear, like flashing back edits here that they haven't really done before, plus those real contrasting edits? So I'm curious to see if we're going to see more of that going forward.
Mallory 28:42
So on that note, I'm going to turn us to our fandom artifact. -
Endless Duel SFX 28:48
[Video game MIDI version of Two-Mix's Rhythm Emotion plays]
Mallory 28:50
- which today is Mobile Suit Gundam Wing Endless Duel, not Endless Waltz. So this is a head-to-head fighting game that was released exclusively in Japan in 1996. And while I was looking up the exact year that this was released, the wiki for this game told me that its developers use the same engine in another game, Mighty Morphin Power Rangers, but they improved it for Endless Duel, which I think you can tell. So the game was only released in Japan, but Kat's gotten really into eBay and quarantine.
Kat 29:26
Yeah, yeah, I don't know, I go into eBay cycles where you're like, Oh, yeah, I can definitely nurse this really nice interest. So I hooked up my Super Nintendo System, and it grabs us because we had talked about the different Gundam games in an earlier episode, because they've done an English hack. Basically, it's like a game in English but in an SNES cartridge.
Endless Duel SFX 29:51
[sounds of mobile suits punching each other and landing combo hits]
Mallory 29:52
Really cool. [selection screen music begins to play] You can pick from all of the different Gundams:
Endless Duel SFX 29:57
[selection screen midi music, with the noises of moving your selector around the screen]
Mallory 29:59
Wing, Deathscythe, Heavyarms, Sandrock, and Shenlong. And then you can also be Tallgeese, who's piloted by Zechs, even though Tallgeese does not look like Tallgeese on the show, it's gray, like the figure on the screen is gray instead of white.
Kat 30:13
It just doesn't look like it at all.
Caitlin 30:15
You can be the Untitled Tallgeese: Title of Podcast
Endless Duel SFX 30:19
[musical beat]
Mallory 30:20
You can also be Mercurius who's piloted by Noin, and you can be Vayeate, who Une pilots, right?
Kat 30:25
Yeah, so the only main character you can't really play is Treize? I guess Relena, but that would be
Mallory 30:31
That would be weird.
Kat 30:31
That would be actually an incredible secret character, but it is -- she's not a secret character. [laughing]
Mallory 30:36
One, the MIDI version of the theme for this game is so good.
Endless Duel SFX 30:44
[MIDI version of Just Communication by Two-Mix plays -- it's more elaborate than the intro music, and has an exciting bassline]
Mallory 30:48
Just I think the animation is also really great.
Kat 30:51
Yeah, I really -- the pixel art is great. And I'm not sure if it's cuz it's like a hack or whatever. But I mean, it looks awesome.
Mallory 31:00
Yeah. And I mean, all the Gundam pilots look better in this game than they do sometimes in the show?
Kat 31:08
Everybody's really on model.
Mallory 31:09
Yeah, everyone is very on model and it’s because they only had to draw one model.
Endless Duel SFX 31:15
[Sounds of Heavyarms landing a series of combo moves]
Mallory 31:18
As we were playing, one of the things that I thought was really funny, it was that Heavyarms in the game is actually a really formidable opponent.
Endless Duel SFX 31:28
[Heavyarms punching and shooting]
Mallory 31:29
It was the combatant that we had the most difficulty beating. And granted this is because like, I'm not a gamer and have really bad hand-eye coordination. But it's like, I just thought it was really funny because [laughs] we talk a lot of shit about Heavyarms on this podcast and I had a really hard time beating it in this game. So it showed me.
Kat 31:52
It's technically not like the high higher ranked one. But I'm, I got my ass kicked.
Caitlin & Cathy 31:53
Yeah, [in unison] who did you play as?
Mallory 31:55
We sort of cycled through?
Kat 31:57
I like Deathscythe, but I think he's not super. Duo's not like super powerful,
Cathy 32:03
Cuz I actually used to play an emulator version of this when I was in middle school, and I would load it up in our family computer in the basement.
Caitlin 32:10
Oh my god, Cathy, you're so cool!
Cathy 32:12
And I'd play this, and Shenlong is like hands down the best one.
Mallory 32:16
Oh, Shenlong is absolutely the best Gundam.
Cathy 32:19
He is so good in Endless Duel. Like I remember, because I was not a very good gamer either, and like Shenlong was the only way that I could progress.
Kat 32:28
I've beatens Heavyarms one time with Shenlong thus far, so I'm hoping the next, the go-round — and we've played this like three times.
Mallory 32:35
Yeah.
Kat 32:36
To anybody who is like, "wow, they're terrible:" Yes. But also. [laughing]
Mallory 32:42
But also it's the first time that I've turned on an SNES in like, 10 years. So.
Cathy 32:47
Yeah.
Kat 32:47
Yeah, it's been a while
Caitlin 32:48
Question: is there a storyline at all?
Kat 32:51
There's a story mode, but you just play... it's basically like, beat every dude.
Cathy 32:57
Yeah,
Kat 32:57
There's not really a lot of
Caitlin 32:58
the story is beat dudes, okay [crosstalk]
Mallory 33:00
Yeah, the story is war.
Kat 33:01
There's cutscenes. Like when you beat somebody, or like when they defeat you, you'll get the character to show up and say a little quip.
Mallory 33:10
Yeah, the winning pilot always gets like a little title card after each match.
Endless Duel SFX 33:16
[more Gundam battle sounds]
Mallory 33:19
We will post some photos of examples on our Instagram. One of Trowa's was literally just "..." [laughing]
Caitlin 33:29
That's great.
Kat 33:34
So it's pretty incredible.
Mallory 33:36
Like he beats you and then says nothing. He also tells you that your impatience is a most noticeable flaw, which I did not appreciate, Trowa Barton. [laughing]
Caitlin 33:46
That is pretty rude.
Kat 33:47
Did he call us fools?
Mallory 33:49
He says we are all fools.
Caitlin 33:51
It's like he's been listening to us diss Heavyarms in this podcast, and now has gotten his revenge. [laughing]
Kat 33:58
It did feel that way. And there is a secret character just like there is in Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I can spoil it or not either way.
Caitlin 34:06
Spoil us!
Kat 34:08
If you defeat everything on hard, you get an Epyon, so you can play as Epyon/Milliardo Peacecraft, so.
Caitlin 34:16
[gasp] Whoa.
Kat 34:17
Although Epyon is apparently like super powerful. So what I learned when I got this is apparently it's gaining a little more traction on the competitive fighting game circuit, in the past few years. I found several posts. There was a tournament at MAGfest in 2018, according to Twitter, Epyon is like so super powered that he's not tournament eligible. [laughs]
Caitlin 34:39
So Cathy from middle school is going to apply to play as Shenlong.
Cathy 34:44
That's what I should have done. You know that that's, that is the alternate universe Cathy, who actually got really good at SNES competitive fighting games [laughs] emulator and became a professional fighting game pro.
Kat 34:56
This was fun though, would recommend. I used to play a ton of fucking Tekken
Mallory 35:01
Yeah
Kat 35:01
and Mortal Kombat as a kid, but I'm still more of a button masher than anything.
Mallory 35:05
It's fun.
Kat 35:05
[Endless Duel fighting sounds begin] Yeah, it's fun. I liked it. And you can adjust your levels so you can play with non-fighting game people or like whatever.
Endless Duel SFX 35:15
[Explosion, fast paced video game music from a fight]
Mallory 35:20
So if you can find it on eBay, you should do it. [Heavier and slower music from Endless Duel playing] Thanks so much for joining us again. We'll see you next time.
Cathy 35:32
If you have any questions, comments, Petty disagreements or adoration you want to share, we'd love to hear from you. You can find us on Twitter at TallgeesePod. We also have full transcriptions on our Tumblr, UntitledTallgeesePodcast.tumblr.com. And you can follow us on Instagram at UntitledTallgeesePodcast for fandom artifacts, sneak peeks and more. Until next time, thanks! [music ends]
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EPISODE 15: THE PEACECRAFT INSTITUTE FOR GIRLS WHO CAN'T CRAFT PEACE GOOD
Close your eyes. Imagine a beach. The sand between your toes. The sound of waves. Your eyes are shrouded in unexpectedly detailed eyelashes. Your friend sits beside you. The setting sun brings a new vibrancy to his platinum blonde hair. Two dogs run up to you. You throw a pineapple for them. You are at peace. Your name is Heero Yuy and your animation budget has just been replenished. Okay, enough of that: we have some questions. First of all, where is this beach jungle of Europe? Is total pacifism possible or is it merely schoolgirl naïveté? Why do people love war? Do freaky pointed eyebrows correlate with loving war? What other eyebrow shapes indicate political positions? Can dogs even eat pineapple? A little pineapple as a treat? We carefully research (read: totally make up) answers to these questions and more at the fancy shoujo manga rich girl school where Relena is a student, a teacher, the principal, the school board, the student council president, and the actual president of the whole country. How does she have time to do all that when she has an evil new girlfriend with a car? For our fandom artifact, Kat and Mallory played 1996 Super Nintendo game Mobile Suit Gundam Wing Endless Duel, a game about beating dudes.
Episode on Anchor | Transcript | Artifact
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In Episode 06, our fandom artifact was the mysterious ways people connected websites in the early 2000s, back when the internet was more than just four websites. We posted a bit about SDDI at the time but I wanted to update with some other examples and more from SDDI.
One of these methods was webrings and that got us to talking about the Society for the Defense of Duo’s Intelligence, a mailing list, webring, and fanfiction contest dedicated to not making Duo into a moron. Even as early as 2000, when English fandom was very young, the characterization of Duo in fanfiction had been flanderized into making him an annoying ditz; the SDDI arose to defend against that tendency. I love this fanfic contest winner banner showing Duo in a graduation gown.
A listener also reminded us of the Society for the Defense of Quatre’s Balls, a similar site for fans who didn’t want Quatre to be shown only as a weakling. Quatre, similar to Duo, had been reduced to the “nice” pilot, the emotional one, the weakling. There’s a battle in Episode 47 where Quatre thinks Zechs is targeting him out of all the pilots because he’s the weakest, but Zechs says he’s going after Quatre in order to disable the BRAIN of the Gundam Pilots. That’s the SDQB philosophy in a nutshell—everyone thinks Quatre is the weakest (including Quatre) but his brain, his conviction, and his heart make him strong.
Other examples that came to mind were broader groups like Hentai Free and the group that arose to counter it, Hentai Free Free, that allowed you to mark your webpage as aligned with a certain political view. If you are familiar with our podcast, you can probably guess we were NOT Hentai Free. The Hentai Free Free page had several still-relevant essays on freedom of expression and censorship.
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For Episode 13, we discussed the postcard section of Megu Extra Gundam Wing 2nd Operation, a mook (magazine+book) published by Megu magazine in June 1996.
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Episode 14: Road Trip (No Apologies)
Whump. Sandalwood. Dragon plushie. Perfect soldier. "Gods!" Do these ancient codewords awaken anything in you? If so, then this episode is for you. Gundam Wing has hit its midseason recap moment, so your hosts have decided, like Treize, to hide away in a shadowy and extremely elaborate mansion of their memories—only instead of Lady Une, we have the ghost of fanfiction past. Join us as we discuss the first installment in the Road Trip arc, a famous 1x2 fanfic series by Sunhawk, revisit fanfic archives loved and lost, ponder post-Earth polytheism, and finally pay tribute to an author who devoted two whole decades to the Gundam Wing fandom. You can find the Road Trip arc on multiple websites, including via the AO3 archive of A Little Piece of Gundam Wing.
Episode on Anchor | Transcript | Fandom Artifact
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For Episode 14, we were stuck in recap hell so we gave up on summarizing Gundam Wing episodes and read fanfiction instead.
Our main focus was on Road Trip by Sunhawk and Sunhawk's overall impact on 1x2x1 (that's Heero/Duo to you young people) fandom.
Sunhawk passed away from breast cancer in 2019. She left the livejournal post linked above to be posted by her daughter.
Here is her advice to all of us remaining in Gundam Wing fandom after all these years:
"Write it. Draw it. Sing it. Create it. Share it. We all start somewhere. We all start with works that are horribly out of character, we write tropes that have been written a million times before. We all stare at blank canvases, unable to get the lines down in a way that we want, and we all scrap ideas that we feel just aren’t good enough. But a fandom lives because of the people who produce for it, and by those who come to read and view. Yes, maybe that five hundred word drabble in which two strapping young men are trapped in a remote cabin during some horrible weather event and there is only one bed isn’t your best work. But what about the work after that? Or the one that follows? With each creation you learn, you polish yourself, you grow. Never stop yourself from growing. Never let others stop you from growing. Share the stories you have in you, post your art, because at the end of the day life is too damn short to spend not doing something you love to do."
True to this message, she was active in Gundam Wing fandom even after her death, with her final fics prepared ahead of time to be posted for the twelve days of Christmas in 2019.
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