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radabeast · 11 months

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Angels, and Londor as Lothric’s Future Theory

A theory posited here by u/TheSpiritForce. LENGTHY fucking read, but an appreciable thorough approach. TL;DR as stated:

“Londor may be the future of Lothric. The War of the Angelic faith, the presence of Angels openly roaming Lothric in the future, said Angels being connected to Pilgrims, and Pilgrims like the Old Hag dating back to the days of Lothric all contribute to this theory. Not to mention that no one seems to have any knowledge on Londor or Yuria except for the few individuals/items specifically from Londor. This is not the case with almost every other notable group we hear about in the game. Even Ludleth and the Firekeeper know nothing. The world doesn't know about Londor, because Londor doesn't exist yet. Yuria and the Pilgrims came back from the future to complete their plans, hence why they are waiting for you after you beat SoC. They are from the Dreg Heap era. “

Full theory reposted below, though the comments in the Reddit post itself also get lengthy and are worth looking into.

Foreword

After what we have found in the Ringed City DLC, I have now begun to humor the idea that Londor may simply be Lothric's future, as opposed to being an established land in the current time we exist in for most of the main game. I, along with some others, have always considered this possibility due to the Sable Church members we see waiting for us in the future after we defeat Soul of Cinder. I made a brief topic about this found here. I was tossing the idea out there to see what others might think, with the intention that I would eventually take a more in-depth look.

This post will explore the ideas that Yuria and the Pilgrims are Time-Travelers from the future, The Angelic Faith took control after the fall of Lothric, and that the Church of Aldrich may have some role to play in what would one day become the Sable Church of Londor. Hear me out.

Many of us thought that Londor was originally a largely incomplete idea. That the devs ran out of time and were saving it for the DLC. Imagine our surprise when Londor was scarcely mentioned in the Ringed City. We thought that there was a large lore hole that needed to be filled. We now know that maybe that wasn't ever the case. The devs never intended to make a DLC all about Londor. To be fair, we did need the last few bits from the DLC to put it all together, but there were more hints in the main game of Londor's origins than we may have realized.

Time Travelers

I think that it's possible that the Londorians traveled back to the main-game time period to complete their plans. Which would mean that in the current day, the Sable Church does not exist yet. A lot of what I discuss will support this theory, but there are a few reasons as to why it may be very wrong. I will discuss that at the end. For now, humor the idea. And if you're not a fan, don't worry, I am discussing a lot of Londor related stuff that is important to their tale regardless of what time period the Sable Church started up in, or whether or not Londor is actually Lothric in the future.

The Priestess and the Pilgrims

The Stone-Humped Hag is a former Priestess of Lothric. As Vaati suggests in his new video, she may have been Lorian's wet-nurse. Sounds very plausible to me. But what matters most is that she was a Priestess. This can lead us to some very important conclusions. First, that some of the Pilgrims and members of the Sable Church date back to the days of Lothric's prime, and have lived all the way until the end of the world. Second, that there are Pilgrims living in the Dreg Heap Era. This is important to the Time Travel Theory, as prior to this, we couldn't know if any Pilgrims were in the future. The Hollow Lord ending doesn't show any. Now we know that there are Pilgrims living in this time. This doesn't necessarily mean that they are from this era, but it's a necessary piece of the theory.

Going back to the first point, there are Pilgrims that date back to the days of Lothric, and are former citizens of the Kingdom, and even important people like a Priestess. This would make her "Wretchedly Aged?" wouldn't you say? Consider the idea that the Pilgrims are wretchedly aged, not because their establishment began long before the main game time, but because they lived from the main game time all the way to the Dreg Heap Era. This will become more plausible as I continue into the later sections that reinforce the idea that Londor and the Sable Church wasn't officially around prior to, or even during, the main game time.

Victory of the Angelic Faith

The war on the Angelic faith was an event that begun leading up to the events of the main game. It is a more "recent" part of history, relatively speaking. Gertrude being visited by Angels is how it all began. The Ringed City gives us an important connection between Londor and the Angels. The Angels are directly connected to the Pilgrims of Londor. One even spawns when the Old Hag dies. What if this came to be due to the rise of the Angelic faith? Combine this with Pilgrims like the Old Hag dating back to Lothric's day, and you have a solid connection between Lothric, Pilgrims, and the Angels. Could the people of Lothric developed a connection with Angels over time? The answer is likely yes, but how? I don't have a solid answer to that question. However, I do have some characters/groups to talk about that may play a role in the transition to an Angel focused Lothric.

Pale Shades and Earthen Peak

The Pale Shade was another main game hint regarding Londor's origins. The Face Mask and Manikin Claws are a clear connection to Earthen Peak/Harvest Valley. As you know, we get to visit a destroyed Earthen Peak in the DLC. I think this could be another piece to grounding the Sable Church's founding in the future. Between the Angelic Faith, and the info on the Old Hag being a former Priestess, we've already begun to pinpoint the Sable Church's origins in Lothric. Add in the connection to Earthen Peak. In the main game time, Earthen Peak is no where near Lothric. However, as the lands continue to converge and collapse, Earthen Peak actually becomes a neighboring land to Lothric. This is why these Manikin related Pale Shades are part of the Sable Church. The foundation of the Church happened in the future, when Earthen Peak is one of Lothric's neighbors. However, if you don't like the "Londorians from the Future" theory, then perhaps as Earthen Peak got closer to a Lothric controlled Sable Church, they brought in the Earthen Peak inhabitants into the Church.

I'll take this moment to discuss a stray thought I have on the Pale Shades' origins. They are called "Harlots of Death" (A Harlot is something akin to a Prostitute), have origins in Earthen Peak, and cover their faces to hide sinister intentions underneath. Perhaps some relationship to the Desert Sorceresses? We find one of their descendants named Zoey, who lacked the deceptive and poisonous nature of the other Sorceresses. What happened to all the others? Recruited as Pale Shades maybe? After all, the Pale Shade's may have Manikin related gear, but the item descriptions tell us that they probably aren't actually the Manikin type enemies we fight in Ds2. They are actual people underneath. Just a stray thought. Back on track.

Rosaria and the Church of Aldrich

The transition to an angel focused Lothric may have been assisted by the "Church of Aldrich", and possibly even the Pontiff. First of all, the statues in the Cathedral of the Deep seem to depict people becoming Angel-like beings. Other statues show a person with some sort of growth out of their backs. This statue may be showing us an earlier part of the transformation process that leads to the statues with the wings. It seems Angel related. But there are no signs of Angels, Pilgrims, or people transforming into Angels near or around the Cathedral area. But we do find Gael, whose tale does seem to have crossed paths with Londor. He uses an executioner sword, a type we find outside the Cathedral, and is actually praying at the Cathedral bonfire. The Church of Aldrich has origins within the Way of White and servitude to the Gods. Gael's origins likely lie here as well. He has likely long forsaken the original Way of White and servitude of the gods, but speaks of one of the Londor sisters while praying at the Cathedral. So we now must think on what connection Friede may have with the Deep worshipers. Nothing too conclusive to say about all this right now, but it's important to know about the little connections. Especially considering Gael sent you into the painting with every intention of having you kill Friede.

Rosaria is another matter. 3 of the 4 Angels we see in the DLC are controlled by strange... things. They have a humanoid torso that trails off into a fleshy back end that connects to the Pilgrims. I can't quite figure out what these things are or how they came to be, but I want to bring up a possible connection. Rosaria, the mother of Rebirth, changes her followers into Man-Grubs. They have humanoid torsos that trail off into a "grubby" tail end. The Caster Man-Grubs fire off projectiles that burst into white feathers when they make impact with an object. Curious, no? A while back someone made a post claiming that Rosaria is Gertrude, as her model actually has empty eye sockets, and from her Soul item we know she does have some blood-relation to the Royal Family. Blind and of Royal Blood? Locked away for some unknown reason? (There is a busted gate in front of Rosaria's room) Transforms people into strange creatures? I don't necessarily think that she is Gertrude, but there may be an important connection, as a Man Grab watches over Gertrude's cage. Could the man-grub transformations been a part of the process that would eventually lead to the Pilgrims creating Angels (And their weird controller creatures) when they die? Does this mean that the Church of Aldrich, with their capture/holding of Rosaria create an even stronger link between them and the Angelic Faith than just the statues?

And what about Dancer? She too may have a blood relation to the Royal Family, based off of her Soul item and Armor description. Dancer and Rosaria both seem to be exiles of the Family. The reason is hard to figure out. Does she have any ties to the Angelic Faith? Dancer's swords have a unique weapon art. This weapon art has a slow starting spin that you can continue for as long as you have the endurance/FP. Despite this Uniquely named move, the actual attack itself is functionally the same as the Unique Winged Knight Weapon arts. I know, I know. Not a solid link, but I feel the need to point it out.

Angels and Butterflies

So just what the hell are the Pilgrim Butterflies? Do they factor into Londor and the Angels? They are called Pilgrim Butterflies after all. Once they posses the Dragonslayer Armour, it acquires an affinity to the Dark that it likely didn't have prior, and takes extra damage from the Abyss Greatsword. We do see multiple dead Pilgrims at the base of Lothric, and them becoming Butterflies to ascend to the Peak of the Castle seems logical. The Hollow Trees we find in Lower Lothric share a vague likeness to the Butterflies, and look skyward towards the Castle peak. But.. We don't find any dead Pilgrims in the same locations as the Hollow Trees, and vice versa. So are the Hollow Trees not specifically grown from Pilgrims? Are they grown from the various praying Hollows we find in the Wall? Does this mean that they Butterflies aren't connected to Pilgrims? Or that the Tree Hollows aren't directly tied to Pilgrims? Let me know what you guys think. However, the idea of all the Dead Pilgrims causing Butterflies to appear feels very likely based on what we see in the Future when Pilgrims die and give birth to Angels. So what is the Relationship between the Angels and Butterflies?

Look closely at the Angels. Both their wings and torso seem to trail off into an almost plant-like appearance. It gives a similar vibe to the Hollow Trees I mentioned before. And curiously enough, the same can be said of the Butterlfies, who have plant-like wings and lower torsos. Put the Hollow Trees, Angels, and Butterflies side by side in that order, and it almost looks like they belong to the same progressing transformation, with the Angels being the middle stage. A bit speculative, but could add another important piece to the Londorians-from-the-future theory. This also creates a weird time loop where Londorians going back in time cause Gertrude to see Angels, start a new faith that would some day take over and cause Lothric to become Londor, and the citizens would become the Angels that would go back in time... Becoming the very Angels Gertrude saw that started it all to begin with.

Continuing that thought, consider the idea that the Pilgrim butterflies are the final form of the Pilgrim-Angels, that they only achieved after coming back in time to Lothric. This would mean that the Hollow Trees, or possibly Rosaria's transformation business with the Man grubs, are precursors to the Angels that would appear/develop in the future. Which is why we see Dreg Heap era Pilgrims becoming Angels. The Butterflies would be the last form. The issue then, is trying to figure out what exactly Gertrude saw. Going in line with the theory I just presented, were the Butterflies the "Angels" she saw? Or did she see an Angel pre-butterfly transformation? Perhaps the Angels aren't the Butterflies at all, and there are just some DLC-type-Angel enemies that showed up that we never get to see. Let me know your thoughts.

The Lack of Londor

Let's take a step back and look at Londor and the Sable Church. What is their purpose? They are a group dedicated to the usurpation of the Flame, and the end of the Age of Fire. Their goals are directly opposed to Lothric's, one of the mightiest Kingdom's of the current (main game) time. Londor should be known to any and all lands and people who know anything regarding Lothric or Fire-linking. After all, its not like Yuria or the Pilgrims act secretive or operate in the shadows. At least not as we see them in the main game. Plenty of dead Pilgrims are found out and about at the entrance to Lotrhic, and Yoel/Yuria waltz on into the Firelink Shrine without a care in the world. This is... strange. This Ring does refer to Londor Hollows as secretive in nature, but also as being widely detested. The first part about being secretive doesn't quite reflect the actions we see from the Sable Church members. It could be more indicative of the personality of Londor hollows in a general sense. A statement of how they treat others, and not necessarily reflecting the way the Church handles itself. The fact that they are "widely detested" means that people should be knowledgeable of Londor Hollows and be able to recognize the few we meet, as none of them disguise themselves in any manner. So why do we receive no warnings?

Which NPCs directly speak about Londor? Only NPCs from Londor. And where do most Londor related items come from? Once again, NPCs directly from Londor, or Irina, if you give her the Londor Tome, previously carried by Yuria. Few items directly mentioning Londor come from anywhere else in the game. One case is the miracle atonement in the Farron Swamp. Although it should be mentioned that there are Pilgrims on the bridge above the Swamp. Could they be the reason for this miracle being here? Does the atonement miracle give us more insight into the Pilgrims role in the Sable Church? Are the Pilgrims these outcasts spoken of in the miracle? After all, at the Hollow-Lord cutscene the small crowd of hollows present for such an important event does not include any hollows in Pilgrim attire. But I digress. It's simply something to think about. Back to the point.

Look at many of the important/powerful groups/characters we interact with. Many of them have interactions/conflicts with each other. Pontiff may reside over Irythil, but he came from the painted world, went to the Profaned Capitol, captured a God, made allies with Aldrich, and seems to be waging some kind of conflict against Lothric. The followers of Aldrich and the Way of White have influence that extends to the Undead Settlement and the Road of Sacrifices. And Way of White lore relevant to their past also comes up in other places and ties their story to other lands such as Carim. Multiple NPCs from different places have info on the various groups/lands we learn about. Greirat doesn't hail from Irythil, but knows enough about it when he finds out you've been there. Hawkwood has a bit to tell us about Aldrich. A Crystal Sage of Lothric went to join the Abyss Watchers. You see where I'm going with this? Notable groups and individuals found throughout the world interact with each other and have information known about them near and far to their original homes. How much info about Londor do we find scattered about these converging lands? Very little that isn't directly from Yuira/Yoel. Do we even find any lore on the Lothric family having conflicts/interactions with Londor/Sable Church? Any interactions between Londor and the Pontiff? Aldrich? Farron's Legion? Carthus? The Demons? None at all. Not even Ludleth or the Firekeeper have any dialogue about them. Of all the places and people we should hear information on Londor from, they should have something to say when Yuria and Yoel arrive in the Shrine. They don't. It's because they have little knowledge of what the Sable Church even is, as it doesn't properly exist yet.

Let's return to discussing the possibility that Yuria and the Pilgrims are all traveling back from the Dreg Heap Era. This could explain why no one mentions them or interacts with them, why so few items about them are found about the world, and why the Royal Family has no history of butting heads with them. The Church of Londor isn't formed until after the main game events. The Royal Family falls after we kill Lothric and the King, the Angelic Faith begins to take over, and the Sable Church is formed at some point in the future. The remaining citizens/Hollows of Lothirc become tied to the Angels forevermore. The world continues to converge and collapse. Elfriede, an Ashen One, and a sister of Londor, abandons the Church. If she is the last Ashen One left in the future, this could explain why Yuria must go back in time to seek out the Player. The scrap of Painting she dwells in could be from the Dreg Heap Era as well. After all, when we exit the Painting, we find ourselves in the Dreg Heap. Perhaps the rest of the damaged painting lies there, in the future? Could Gael also have traveled back from the end of time?

I'll admit, there are other possibilities. Some of this is definitely stretching for connections. The Sable Church could be in full swing during the main game, and only moves into the spotlight and takes control after the fall of Lothric. There are explanations that counter or address the explanations I bring up. This post is long enough, so I'll leave that to you guys to discuss below. I'll make an additional section at the end later to list notable points you guys bring up. Feedback is greatly appreciated.

#theories #ds3 #angels #londor #posts

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