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drwcn · 4 years

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@cloudyfromoobsession

Hi! :)

On the topic of talking in third person when referring to yourself, it is actually quite prevalent in cdrama, especially the historical ones, but it never shows up in translation because well... it sounds really weird in English and often there is no direct translation. So most translators just do away with it.

In modern spoken Chinese, third person speech is no longer used (in fact it would be very weird if you did), so below is only pertaining to historical or fantasy dramas.

If I could insert my personal opinion on the matter: there’s no need to use third person speech in English. Chinese third person speech is incredibly nuanced depending on context and person, and it is incredibly easy to misuse it in English. Writers end up not conveying their intentions and actually making things really awkward. As someone who is fully bilingual, I personally find that third person speech, when used in excess, makes the writing stilted. Another example is Lan Wangji’s “concise speech” which I see very often. It does not work in English. It makes him sound like he doesn’t know how to speak properly and is grammatically incorrect. Chinese is a language that is designed to be able to be shortened in certain ways and still follow all its grammatical rules. English’s syntax does not work the same way at all. Speech is a major contributor to a fictional character’s personality. Sometimes those subtleties cannot be transposed directly from Chinese to English. To still capture the character when writing in English, each writer has different ways of doing this, but personally I like to keep Lan Wangji’s speech - for the most part - simple and concise. No complex or compound sentences but all his sentences should still obey the grammatical rules of English.

Okay, onto third person speech, since I find it interesting and it’s like a cool language quirk.

NOTE: below is about referring to oneself in the third person. Referring to someone else in the third person is a whole thing on its own.

The “talking in third” person you’re probably referring to stems from the episode when LWJ got drunk with One Braincell Trio, and the next morning he went to his uncle and said 忘机知错 or 忘机有错. I can’t remember specifically which one he said, but essentially it means “Wangji knows his faults” or “Wangji is at fault”. Using one’s own name to speak in third person is actually less common than some of the other examples I will explain below. There are many ways to speak in third person depending on the situation, your position and the person you are talking to.

Before I do that, I’d that to point out that the pronoun “I” 我 is seen as rude or not following etiquette if you use it inappropriately with people who you shouldn’t be using “I” with. For example, a girl entering the palace to serve as a maid will be trained to stop using “I” when she is speaking with nobility, royalty and anyone of higher rank than he. She will in fact be verbally corrected by her supervisor (and may even be punished) if she used “I” inappropriately. A palace maid’s “noun” that she will use in place of “I” is nubi 奴婢. Instead of saying 我不知到 “I don’t know”, she will say 奴婢不知 “nubi does not know.”

Notice the grammar issue that we’re presented with. Because there are no verb conjugation changes in Chinese, substituting “I” with another noun doesn’t change what happens to the verb in Chinese, but in English, you have to make conjugation changes. This makes dialogues sound even more weird in English.

“I” can be used amongst friends, close siblings, family (with exceptions) individuals or colleagues of relatively equal ranking or (sometimes) strangers on the street. Children, especially civilian children, almost always use “I”. As a general rule, civilians mostly use “I” with each other, it’s only when they speak to someone of rank that they switch their pronoun to a "non-I” noun. Also! Chinese doesn’t differentiate between the subject ‘I’ and the object ‘me’. They are both 我 “wo”, so both “I” and “me” are affected in the same way when switching to a ‘non-I’ noun.

So now I will list some of the “nouns” that are used in place of “I” in c-dramas. They will be listed in categories based on people’s station in life.

It’s important to note that Chinese can and is spoken passively, especially in old speech and in dramas. You won’t get the same flack for not using “active tone” the way you do in English. In fact, using “I” or “you” in old Chinese speech actually makes it sound informal. However, this again is one of those language quirks that doesn’t translate and can’t really be transposed. When writing in English, when in doubt, always follow English’s grammatical rules and syntax practices.

I have no degree in Chinese history or even East Asian studies. These are just some of the commonly used terms I’ve seen over many, many years of drama watching. Sometimes, drama gets it wrong, and these misconceptions will get passed to the audience, but it’s not like we’re submitting manuscripts for academic publication, so does it really matter if it’s slightly inaccurate?

Citizens, when talking to Officials, Royalty or the Emperor:

1) cao min 草民 - “grass” “citizen” 2) min nv 民女 - “citizen” “woman” 3) min fu 民妇 - “citizen” “married woman”

An average jo farmer when speaking with any government official or nobility or royalty including the Emperor will use cao’min to refer to themselves. Cao’min is gender neutral, so both men and women, old or young can use it. For example: “M’lord, I didn’t kill anyone!” -> “大人，草民没有杀人!”

“min’nv” on the other hand is used exclusively by women, usually younger women, while “min’fu” is used exclusively by older married women. The context of their usage is the same as cao’min. Both married and unmarried women can use cao’min as well. (nv is a weird word isn’t it? It’s because there is literally no alphabet to make the 女 sound. The closest we can get is nu, but that’s actually another word, so pinyin uses nv to as substitution.)

Notice, all three of these nouns are actually more... “formal”, as in these are the nouns people will know to use when they are being brought before a local judiciary court, or being called to testify before the Emperor himself. In a street setting, nouns #4 and #5 are usually used.

Sidenote: da’ren 大人 is an honorific that can be used for any government official that holds some kind of public office or police status. A citizen can use “da’ren” with officials as high as the prime minister all the way down to their local mayor or even just the guards patrolling town. A lower official refers to his superior as {Last-name-da’ren}, and a higher official ALSO refers to their subordinates (who are not close friends of his) as {Last-name da’ren}. More nuances apply but generally these are the rules.

Worker/Trades person/Citizen, when talking to someone of higher class and wealth:

4) xiao de 小的 - “of little” 5) xiao ren 小人 - “little” “person”

Example: Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji walks into an inn, the busboy greets them and says: Chinese: “二位公子，[小的]是这里的小二，二位打尖还是住店？” English: “Young masters, [xiao’de] is the busboy/waiter of this place. Would you like to take your meal here or check in for the night?” or basically “Hi! I am your waiter and I’ll be helping you today. Are we eating or checking in?”

Adults of Scholar/Gentries Status/Martial Artists in Pugilist Society/Cultivators:

6) zai xia 在下 - “is here” “lower” 7) wan bei 晚辈 - “later” “generation” 8) di zi 弟子 - disciple 9) lao sheng 老身 - “old” “body”

zai xia - The thing with old Chinese speech is that it inherently is overly politely. In many many cases, you always put yourself in the lower status when speaking to a stranger of unknown status because you don’t want offend the person you don’t know. Zaixia can be used by men, women, usually not too old. If you’re a senior man or woman you usually default to 9). Example: two cultivators who’ve never met fought off a ghoul together. After the fact, they introduce themselves. One of them says: “在下云梦江氏魏无羡，多谢仙友相助。” Meaning translation: “I am Wei Wuxian of the Yunmeng Jiang Clan. Thank you so much for your help.” Literal translation： “[zai’xia] Yunmeng Jiang Clan Wei Wuxian. Much thanks cultivator friend for help.” This entire sentence contains neither ”I” nor “you”. But that’s just not... feasible to talk like that in English.

wan bei is used in CQL. Ex: A disciple of Yunmeng Jiang may refer to themselves as wan bei when speaking to a senior of another sect. When a disciple is speaking to a senior of their own sect, they will use “di zi” (disciple).

Family:

10). xiao xu 小婿 - “little” “son in law” 11). hai er 孩儿 - “child” 12). sun nv 孙女， sun er 孙儿 - “granddaughter” , “grandson” *there are more, but I’m use putting these up for examples*

In most families, there’s no need to refer to yourself in the third person. You’re family, just use “I”. But! In certain high society families, the rules are stricter and etiquette is everything. For example, places like Cloud Recesses with a stick up its collective butt would probably follow these rules. If Lan Wangji’s parents were still alive, he’d refer to himself as “hai er” to his parents. He would also refer to himself as “xiao xu” to Cangse and Wei Changze if they were alive. In Story of Minglan, Minglan refer to herself as “sun nv” when she’s speaking with her grandmother.

Government Officials

13). bei zhi 卑职 14). xia guan 下官 both of these mean the same thing “subordinate”. People use it when speaking to their superiors. Foot soldiers in the military will use 13, not 14.

15). wei chen 微臣 {wei chen} is used SOLELY with the royal family. If you are a government official of ANY rank, when speaking to the emperor, empress, dowager empress, you must use wei chen in formal settings. To a prince or princess or a royal concubine, government official can use 14 xia guan. Using “I” in front of royalty is very disrespectful. Exceptions do apply, but this is the overarching rule.

臣 - the word “chen” means subject. The term 君臣 refers to the special relationship of respect that exists between 君 the emperor, and 臣 the people who work on his behalf and whom he rules.

Royalty 16). zhen 朕 - no translation This is a special pronoun used ONLY by the Emperor and he uses zhen a lot. Like, there is no need for him to be humble or whatever and avoid using pronouns. It is his “I” and he can use it as freely as he likes.

17). ben gong 本宫 - “self” “palace” An Empress or a concubine of higher status (ie. a Noble Consort) use this to refer to themselves when they are talking to anyone of lower rank: citizens, servants, a government official, or a lower concubine. This places them in a position of power. Everyone who they’re using ben gong with should be lower than them in ranking. Remember when I said using “I” is rude, well in this case, a noble consort will not use “I” with a servant because she is more noble them, and they not “noble enough” for her to use “I” with. If it’s her close servants, her confidants, she can and often do use “I”, as a sign of familiarity.

18). pin qie 嫔妾, chen qie 臣妾 Lower concubines use “pin qie” and higher concubines use “chen qie” when speaking to the Emperor, Empress or Dowager Empress. The Empress uses “chen qie” when speaking to the Emperor or Dowager Empress. When chen qie or pin qie is used, the speaker is in a lower position than the person they’re speaking to.

19). er chen 儿臣 Princes and Princesses will use “er chen” with their fathers (the Emperor). In front of their mothers (Empress or concubine) and grandmothers, they usually use “I” or 11 “hai er”. If it’s a formal situation, they will switch to “er chen”. An Emperor will also refer to himself as “er chen” when speaking to his mother the Empress Dowager.

20). ben wang 本王 - “self” “lord/duke” An Emperor’s sons, brothers or male cousins are often qinwangs or junwangs (princes, lords, dukes). They will use “ben wang” to refer to themselves in formal settings to any one who is lower than them. In informal settings, they will use “I”. In formal setting when they’re talking to the Emperor, sons of the Emperors will use 19 “er chen”, brothers of Emperors may use “chen di” 臣弟, and cousins or more distant relatives will be simply “chen” or 15 “wei chen”.

21). ai jia 哀家 - “sad” “family” Empress Dowagers: literally the most respected and highest ranking person in any Chinese dynasty. She might not have any real power, but by rank she kneels to absolutely no one. No exceptions. Not even to her son who is the Emperor. He kneels to her. An Empress Dowager will use “ai jia” when she wants to be more formal, but to her family with whom she is close, she can and do use “I”.

Lastly, Jiang Cheng gets a special mention:

When Lan Wangji and Lan Xichen bring Wei Wuxian to Jinlintai at around ep 41, Jiang Cheng, being a total shit disturber says, “不知是那位名士大能，可否为江某引荐一番？”

Translation: “Who is this famous and talented cultivator? Could you introduce him to me?”

But lemme break that sentence down for you.

可否 = can or not 为 = for 江某 = Jiang “mou” 引荐一番 = make introduction.

He does not make use of “him” “you” or “me”. In English, when speaking in the imperative mood, aka, “put the dishes in the dish washer”, it is implied that ‘you’ are the person putting the dishes in the dish washer. Similarly, the ‘him’ and ‘you’ are implied in Jiang Cheng’s sentence, and the only “pronoun” he uses when referring to himself is “jiang mou”. If Jiang Cheng had used “you” or “him” in his sentence, it would’ve been ruder. As is, his sentence was still (albeit falsely) courteous.

The ‘third person’ speech in this context is the use of 江某 “jiang mou”. It is a fairly neutral third person noun. Unlike the above 21 examples, ‘mou’ doesn’t place a person in a position higher or lower than the person they’re talking to. They’re just saying “hey I am a person with the last name Jiang”. It is gender neutral and can be used by both men and women. It’s not limited to cultivators. Scholars can use it, nobility can use it, government officials can use it. (Your average farmer... probably doesn’t use it, because it’s just... not used.)

So that’s it.

There are definitely MORE nouns that are used in third person. These are some of the commonly seen ones. I hope it helps.

Again, this word vomit I just wrote is for general interest. It is absolutely not necessary to use it when writing fics in English. When in doubt, stick to using pronouns the way we would normally.

#language #cql #the untamed #cql reference #master list

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yilingradishfairy · 4 years

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Little Match-Seller

Link to AO3 (1502 words)

Written for Day 22 of the Untamed Fall Fest 2020 - Warmth. Thanks again @fytheuntamed for hosting these; they’re so much fun!

Summary: A-Yuan lights matches from a box he’s certain Wei-gege must have tampered with. He is visited by three warm visions and a ghost that has come to take him to his family.

(or, the Little Match Seller AU. What it says on the tin.)

A/N: I’ve been wanting to rewrite more fairy tales! This fic is based on the Little Match Girl story, committed to paper by Danish author Han Christian Andersen in the mid-19th century. And mid-19th century Denmark has like nothing in common with *hand-wave* xianxia-time Ancient China. So I’ve sort of mashed the two universes together to create one where canon events are happening and flying cultivators are a thing, but matches are also a thing. And match-sellers. And Christmas. Hey, if you can’t have everything you want in life, write fanfiction!

Skrrrrch!

A-Yuan gasped, almost dropping the match he had just lit. The flame flickered, and he immediately moved to shield it from the bitter night wind. Tiny though it was, it instantly filled his little alcove with warmth, providing more heat than any match he’d ever used before. He was so distracted by the sudden relief from the cold that it took him a second to notice the stove that had appeared with it.

It was a giant brick stove, and so much like the one he faintly remembered his mother using. It was so bright and so warm, and it felt just like home! A-Yuan tentatively stretched one bare foot towards it. He had lost his little slipper much earlier in the day. Usually, whenever he went out selling, he would go with Ning-ge. The last time his shoe had fallen apart, Ning-ge simply carried him around for the rest of the day. But they were all gone now. They left yesterday: Qing-jie, Ning-ge, Uncle Four, Granny. They had told him to stay behind and hide like a good boy, and he did. He hid all night, wrapped up in the cover of a hollow tree. Then, in the morning, he set out with their wares like Ning-ge always did.

There was only so much that the adults would let him help with, so he was determined to sell the entire matchbox today. But, cold as it was, nobody seemed to want his matches. The people of Yiling rushed around with nervous, fearful looks on their faces. A-Yuan shuffled stubbornly through the muddy snow, hoping that when it got colder, people would finally take notice. Unfortunately, the only person who noticed him was the little girl who stole his left shoe, the one that hadn’t fallen apart. Still, he trudged onward, until the cold wind grew so unbearable, A-Yuan was forced to take shelter in the corner between houses. And that was where he lit the match.

He was leaning closer to the stove, working up the courage to reach out and touch it, when the match suddenly went out. In its absence, the cold felt even harsher than before. A-Yuan missed the bright flame immediately. And the stove that had so mysteriously appeared. He wondered if Wei-gege had messed with it. Qing-jie kept telling him not to play with the matches, but Wei-gege doesn’t always listen. But he always makes funny things happen, so maybe he had done something to the matches.

A-Yuan debated whether he should light another match. On the one hand, Qing-jie would be upset that he was wasting matches. But then again, she might be upset that he’s still out in the village selling when he should have finished and gone home by now. They should have finished and come home by now, he thought resentfully. They shouldn’t have left me behind. With that thought, he lit the second match.

Skrrrrch!

Wei-gege definitely messed with these matches, A-Yuan thought. This tiny flame was just too warm and too bright. And, in addition to the unnatural warmth, the match brought another vision. From the light of the match, A-Yuan watched a large feast blossom before him. Not only could he see it, but he could smell it, too. He couldn’t remember ever seeing that much food at one time. It reminded him of the day he had met Rich-gege. He had taken him and Wei-gege to a fancy restaurant and let them order whatever they wanted. When Wei-gege had taken A-Yuan back home, they discovered a feast there, too. They had let him eat as much as he wanted that night. But this feast made that one look like table scraps. His stomach rumbled, and he reached out towards the bowl of soup (maybe it would be as good as the one Ning-ge had brought home once), when the match suddenly sputtered out.

The darkness swarmed back in, leeching away the warmth of the match like it had never been there. A-Yuan didn’t think twice about lighting a third match.

Skrrrrch!

Warmth bloomed again, and this time, a giant Christmas tree flickered into being. It was so tall, A-Yuan thought it must be as high as a mountain. The colorful ornaments adorning the tree sparkled merrily, and A-Yuan let himself slide into familiar daydreams about his family. He couldn’t remember much about them, though he knew their faces from photographs. His favorite one was all of them laughing and hugging in front of a Christmas tree. He would stare at the photo and try to remember how their laughs sounded and how their hugs felt. He missed them so much. But he tried not to think about it, because whenever he would think about it, he would talk about it. And whenever he would talk about it, it seemed to make Wei-gege and Qing-jie and Ning-ge sad. But he couldn’t help missing them, whenever he passed those merrily lit shopkeepers’ windows.

He had just reached out to touch one of the fancy colored pictures hanging off a branch when the match went out. But he could still see the Christmas lights. They rose higher and higher until they melted into the sky, joining the stars. Then, one of the stars zipped down, trailing a line of fire across the dark sky. That would be someone dying, he thought, remembering what Qing-jie had told him. When a star falls down from heaven, a soul goes up to replace it. He remembered her pointing out which ones his mom and dad and sister had become. He remembered all those nights watching shooting stars, wondering whose souls would be replacing them. He remembered searching the sky a week ago for the star that was about to fall. The one Wei-gege would replace.

This star was different from others he had watched, though. This one kept falling and falling and falling, seeming to fall right towards him. Maybe this is the star I will replace, A-Yuan thought. Turning to the wall with new determination, he struck another match.

Skrrrrch!

The warmth bloomed immediately, though nothing seemed to accompany it. The star in the sky was still shooting towards him, except now it has fallen right on top of him and taken the form of …

“Rich-gege!” A-Yuan cried. There he was, standing on his sword, floating impossibly in the air. He looked more magnificent than ever, scary but in an I’ll-protect-you way. A-Yuan’s lip trembled, and he tried really hard not to bawl again like he had the first time they met.

“Oh, Rich-gege, please don’t go!” He wanted to lurch forward and cling to his leg, but he didn’t want to let go of the match. He couldn’t let this vision disappear.

“A-Yuan?” Rich-gege knelt down in front of him in concern. A-Yuan realized that his body was shaking. “Tell me what is wrong,” he said, and A-Yuan sniffled.

“The m-match … it’s gonna go out … it'll burn out soon,” he tried to explain, his words tripping and tumbling over each other. “And then you’re gonna leave me, just like the stove and the food and the tree!” And Wei-gege and Qing-jie and Ning-ge and … “You can’t leave, Rich-gege!” In a panic, he quickly struck all the matches against the wall, producing a loud skrrrrch!

Rich-gege’s eyes widened. “A-Yuan!” He knocked the burning matches out of his hands and into the snow, where they began sputtering.

“No! No!” A-Yuan scrambled to try to save Wei-gege’s matches, but Rich-gege gently pulled him away from the smoking pile of ash and snow. A-Yuan clung to him, pressing his face into Rich-gege’s white robes. “Don’t leave me, don’t leave me, don’t leave me,” he chanted.

Rich-gege tightened his arms around him. “Shhh, don’t worry,” he whispered. “I won’t leave you.”

Then the last of the matches burned out with a hiss.

A-Yuan hiccupped a few times, then forced himself to pull away. He looked at the charred snow, and he knew his magic had run out. The last of Wei-gege’s matches were gone.

But he still felt warm. Like, the cold couldn’t touch him anymore.

Oh.

“A-Yuan, you can’t stay here anymore,” Rich-gege whispered to him. But A-Yuan already knew that. “I’m to bring you to your family. They’re all waiting for you.” A-Yuan perked up. He hasn’t seen them in so long. Maybe this won’t be as bad as they make it sound.

“Are you ready?” Rich-gege motioned up into the sky, towards the stars.

A-Yuan took one last look around at the village, and he whispered a quiet goodbye to the world he had known. Then, turning back to Rich-gege, he nodded. “I’m ready.” He was proud that his voice didn’t shake at all. Rich-gege nodded back and carefully gathered him up in his arms. Stepping onto his sword, he flew them both into the sky.

As they soared among the stars, A-Yuan looked around and wondered which one he would replace. He hoped his spot was right next to his family.

Don’t worry, this is a happy ending! LWJ really was there and saved A-Yuan and is taking him home. And he’ll let him have a Christmas tree all the time now if he wants.

A-Yuan is a smart cookie, but he’s not familiar with magic, so he drew some dark and inaccurate conclusions at the end. Well, they were wrong conclusions in this story, if not canon. Originally, I wanted the story to follow canon events, but then LWJ told A-Yuan he was bringing him home to WWX. And I said, wait, no, you can’t do that, because he’s dead. And LWJ said no, actually, I’m going to save everybody and you can’t do anything about it.

Aaaaand I can’t do anything about it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So, WWX is recovering from whatever was killing him last week and all of the Wen remnants (including WQ and WN) are saved, and they really are waiting for LWJ to bring the living A-Yuan home to them.

#untamed fall fest #mdzs fic #cql fic #the untamed fanfic #lan sizhui fic #my writing #wow #ive only written two stories so far #for this fest #and they're both so angsty!#what kind of mood am i in

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