john saying he's known abt sam and the other special children for "awhile" in 2x01

and the demon calling him out saying he's been "playing dumb" like uhh, how he got mad at dean for not calling him (they did) to tell him that all this psychic stuff was happening with sam when john was literally at missouri's house when they were visiting and she directly told john abt sam's abilities.

but also, he's definitely known for much longer imo, and if you take the john journal companion book as canon / semi-canon then it definitely supports the idea that john Knew to some extent about sam's abilities:

these are just two passages from '91 but there are others about how demons are after sam, how sam is special. and if john was hearing this stuff abt sam in '91, there's no way he didn't start digging into things more over the years.

other people have spoken abt headcanons that john was even hunting other special children over the years. which brings me to the crunchy, tastey, AU that i've been rotating around in my mind this morning where john's not only been hunting the thing that killed mary all these years, but also been busy unraveling the sam-psychic-children plot by hunting, kidnapping, and studying other Special Children.

In this AU john isn't as incompetent as he is in canon lmao. In the 20+ years since mary's death he's discovered a whole lot, including his Men of Letters roots. In fact, he discovered the bunker and that's been his "home base" and Special Children Experimentation Lab for years. He's been studying all sorts of things. Watching footage of old MoL experiments. He connected the dots: mothers died in fires at 6 months, kids grew up to develop psychic abilities. He knows the same fate is waiting for sam and john thinks he can fix sam. He has to! That's his son. He won't let his son become some kind of supernatural thing, some kind of monster. In true john fashion he justifies all his actions as an act of love. He's trying to protect sam. Because demons are after these special children. Because these children have been corrupted. He's helping them, actually.

So john conducts experiments to try to draw out the demon blood, to purify them. Similar to how sam later tries to turn crowley human and also forcefully purifies demon dean. It's a very juicy parallel. And it draws on how sam and john hold many similar black-and-white views abt good and bad + what makes someone a monster, and how sam internalized a lot of these ideas re: becoming a monster and how the demon blood led to an obsession with "becoming pure."

John spends more and more time away from the boys, spends so much time tracking down these special children and studying them. Why does his revenge quest take over 20 yrs? Why does it seem like he's nowhere near close to tracking down Azazel until s1 rolls around? Because he's been spending so many years on this subplot. Because in his mind this is him being a good father, this is him looking out for his kids, particularly sam. He's doing all this for sam.

But then, John's never able to find a cure. And then he catches Azazel's trail again and he's off on that hunt. He "goes missing." Sam starts developing psychic powers, just as john always feared. John's aware of all this happening but still projects onto dean, still blames dean for not informing him of something he's known abt for years at this point. John's terrified because he's failed. He hasn't been able to save sam, and now sam might turn into a monster. He might go "dark side" and john can't let that happen. But he also can't kill him. He doesn't have the guts, so he puts that burden on Dean. And he trades his life for Dean's to ensure that someone will be there to carry out John's mission. Either find a way to save Sam, or kill the monster he becomes.

Edit to add two more excerpts from John's journal:

in the canon that includes this journal, john definitely was aware to some extent of sam being Special (or other people insisting he is) and he has been keeping an eye out for any strangeness manifesting in sam and worrying about sam's strange dreams and his bottled up emotions becoming dangerous

... alright! i'm tired! tired of 90% of your blog being blacked out to me because i censored 'trigun' 😭 tell me, where do i begin? where do i start... consuming, this story? there's like, an anime, i know, and the... rewrite of said anime?? all based on a manga i assume??? where do i start. what do i see. what do i skip. tell me i cannot live with this hamster drip of nysh content 😭😭

...?! HOLD UP also rip to your blacklist omfg I was totally under the impression you already knew, since you were the very first to notice a while back and ask me opinionated stuff about it! x'D Fortunately I've answered a similar ask relating to your current predicament~

As you can probably guess, each 'version' of Trigun essentially has its own separate canon (the 98 anime, the manga, and the new Stampede anime; there's 3 whole cakes to enjoy here~) as different tellings of the story + characters that diverge to explore the core themes and messages in their own ways. I do not recommend skipping anything, as it all builds to the lore, world, and characters! :O (Yes, even the silly 'filler' breather eps in the 98 anime's first half all build towards the whole picture, slowly revealing bits and pieces along the way. Even the 'recap' ep at midway pieces everything about Vash's character together thru Meryl's perspective, then introduces more to reframe what's known about him in new complexity.)

But if you're familiar with the old 98 anime (as I've been since 20+yrs ago) I'd recommend a rewatch just to freshen your memory of what happens. JYB's iconic voice work for the dub makes it worth (re)watching alone. Note the anime was created before the manga was even finished, so it draws from the first few early volumes then essentially becomes its own anime-original plotline with different lore akin to how the first fma anime went for example. :O Which upon rewatching recently myself, while it def has some dated 90s bits/gags you can safely ignore, the writing's core messages, themes, intent, and character-driven growth are still very solid and satisfying, with plenty of room left open for more. The strong emotional beats hit very hard for some unsuspecting watchers - going from a seemingly silly lighthearted episodic slapstick comedy at first, to transitioning thru the tragedies of some very heavy/difficult topics later. But worth it for the hopeful, healing process of living through major loss and trauma, and recovering from suffering emotional breakdowns and depressive spirals. :') So fair warning to pace yourself with breaks if needed, without speeding/binge-watching through that kind of content (eps23-25 are where it Hurts the hardest)!

...Cause then the manga takes all those emotional beats (+ the plot & characters) even further and harder than the old anime ever could!!! 8'D That coming out of that will probably make you question your whole existence worldview. Yes, the story's one of those gems that'll probably change your life~ In ways you simply have to experience for yourself to decide what meaning/interpretation/value it holds for you.

But Stampede is completely different from the old anime, since it draws its lore from the completed manga! :O While restructuring and exploring things in a whole new way. As long as you realize that - to not compare it to the old anime (since it's not a 'rewrite' of that story at all) and see it with open eyes as its own independent artform, then you'll have a much better time. Since I'd read the manga beforehand, I really enjoyed seeing the many endgame plot elements Stampede mixed in to set up and enrich what happens. You can of course choose to go in watching blind without that manga knowledge--it's up to you, but imo there's many more layers of appreciation once you realize how much they happened to rearrange and spin into their own thing. (So personally, I'd check out the manga first so you aren't spoiled with sudden endgame elements introduced early here.) BECAUSE, the biggest telling hint is seeing the whole season's timeline as an establishing 'prelude' of sorts before one of the major story events [July City] even happens (cause in the original story--for both the manga & old anime, that incident happens before the story begins, but here it's all different lead up with modified character backstories) with plenty more to continue the manga's (Trimax's) unadapted plot later in s2. Where of course you can have preferences to how it's done, but the overall lesson here is to have patience and let Studio Orange cook, because they knew exactly what they were doing--they did their homework on many meticulous fields of Interest, with everything done with care and purpose (yes, all those conspicuous 'odd' details like the reason why Milly's not here yet- it's explained!) with genuine love for the source material. :'D

The source material which--yes, begins as the Trigun manga (2 vols) and continues renamed as Trigun Maximum (14vols) under a new publisher as a hard seinen. Which currently! The fandom's having a whole bookclub (re)reading event, so it's the perfect time to join in if you feel so inclined! 8'D For enjoying maximum emotional damage and suffering, but easier to cope, navigate, and process among a friendly and supportive group environment~ I've already read the official Dark Horse translation (easily found on most manga sites, but thankfully there's a new hardcover reprint incoming!) but currently I'm trying a reread of the overhaul fan translation instead, as I hear it's more accurate overall. :'3 Hopefully all this info helps, as I bet there's plenty of overwhelming content you may have missed out on!

what annoys me ab GRRM is that he’s a good (enough) writer who understands moral complexity and is (relatively) good at world building. he’s created some amazing iconic characters that stick w ppl for a reason (Jon, Dany, Cersei, Arya etc). and when he does critique misogyny (Cersei’s walk of shame) he does it right. it’s just a shame that his books are marred by authorial gratuitous sexism and racism, it feels like such a waste if you know what I mean ...

Totally. I would lie if I said that he isn’t a good writer, because he is. He tried a different approach to the fantasy genre and his concept — namely the moral complexity and the questioning of heroism and honor — was innovative. And rest is below cut because you made me ramble, anon… 

The world-building is excellent, IMO, he does know how to write well-rounded characters, he knows how to twist certain tropes (although admittedly, this specific technique borders on annoying at one point, rendering some arcs as wholly useless, see Quentyn. Like, I know guy was meant to represent the failed trope of young hero who goes after the beautiful queen, I know the reason of his existence, but in the same time, I can’t help but think of those 200 pages dedicated to his chapters that were utterly pointless). Other tropes, on the other hand, aren’t subverted that much, especially that tropes that I usually don’t like.

Look…I’ll probably get some hate because of this statememt, but I never felt like Jon was particularily interesting, simply because so far, I didn’t feel like he is that much of a subversion of a trope that…it’s so generic for me. Like, he is a good boy and such, but for me — I insist on this — he is still the secret bastard son of the former heir to the throne, sad and broody, but so good and smart and idk why I never felt connected to or intrigued by him. He feels like the same generic fantasy tale that I read when I was young. Same with Sam, whom I really don’t like simply because he represents the nerdy self-insert of the author. This is a tired trope IMO. I appreciate that GRRM gave him an arc and allowed him to shine and find his strength beyond what the society demanded from him, but for me, he is still way too tropey to hold my interest. But again, this is my own personal opinion, I’m not saying that Jon and Sam are not really good boys and that they deserve a happy ending, but they are not a type of characters that appeals to me. Furthermore, if the books’ ending will be like the show’s, with the woman Dany ending up like the hysterical crazed Queen, while Jon will be the reluctant tragic hero who must end her life to save the world….sorry, but I won’t be able to like him, you know?

Dany, Arya, Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei, to name a few, are characters and arcs that really highlight GRRM’s talent in crafting characters. You can tell that they have their own voice and I can’t not help admiring GRRM for ending a different voice and mindset for each of these characters. The way he writes the children’s POV vs. The way he writes the adults’ is just great.

But.

But.

He seems to think that gritty realism means a very unrealistically stark patriarchy, gratuitous violence against women and rape cultures, which he depicts in a very gross manner and he seems to enjoy depicting these very gross aspects. Furthermore many apparently realistic aspects of the Westerosi society are not realistic at all. An adulterous woman was never paraded naked on streets, she only had her head shaved and walked barefoot. Noble girls were engaged and/or married at young ages, but in most cases, the spouses waited for a time until the girl reached a decent age to consummate the mariage. Daenerys was a victime of statutory rape, since, even though her first night with Drogo was consensual, she was well under the age of consent — and this is something GRRM had never adressed. On a similar note, he seems to romanticise S/andor Cl/egane’s creepy obsession towards Sansa, apparently unaware of the fact that he wrote a 20 yr old something man pining for a 12 yr old girl. Dany’s sex life can be very uncomfortable and there was no reason for him not to make her at least 16-17 at the start of the series. He never bothered to explore the many dead women he killed off merely for plot convenience and manpain™️ and are mostly tired tropes (Lyanna - “the object of desire between two men who fought a war for her; Joanna - "desired by two men whose friendship would later develop into bitter rivalry and the only one who brought a bit of humanity in Tywin; Rhaella - exists soley to be raped and give birth to the Targ siblings; Unnamed Princess of Dorne - the only female ruler during the pre-Rebellion era, but she is unnamed; Ashara - the beautiful suicidal maiden, herself most likely and object of desire for at least two men; Elia - don’t get me started). Third — and the worst, IMO — he seems to favour the redemption of the male characters over the female characters. For example, I am supposed to accept the redemption of a disgusting rapist such as Theon, whereas Cersei will most likely end up strangled to death by her lover/brother. Fourth, reading lines such as "Ladies die in childbirth. No one sings songs about them” and “Is there any creature as unfortunate as an ugly woman?” and reading about Catelyn examining her future daughter-in-law’s breasts and hips to figure out if she is able to have children, as in to read about Catelyn thinking about women just in relation to how they can be of use to a man, is sometimes depressing. This is why I can’t like Catelyn and Sansa. Whereas other women defy, willingly or unwillingly (Arya, Brienne) or fight against the restrictions imposed on them by the society (Cersei, Arianne) or to gain and stay power in their society (Daenerys, Margaery), they just sit and accept things as they are and are stucked in their limited classist mindset because they were born in privilege.

So, in conclusion, do I think GRRM is a bad writer or that AS0IAF are bad books? No way. Do I think his treatment to certain aspects is bad? Yes.

Hi,pal! I'm loving "It's the perfect story"! However, the subject I'm talking about doesn't directly to the fic. By what I know, people don't hate Silena because she was the spy,it's more like they think her being seduced/manipulated into doing it is detracting to her character. Many posts say that's very insulting to teen girls, or her cause should be something like "her cabin was being disrespected"(out of character IMO, but I'll talk about it later)...

Continuation. Or “the demigods were being mistreated by the gods”(not a bad one,but Silena didn’t really feel the worst of the gods IMO. Not like Luke, Chris or Tori in the fic). People are entitled to their opinions, but I disagree. About the “disrespected cabin stuff”,Silena is defensive in a blunt, straightforward way when it happens. Examples: how she wanted to fight the Huntresses when they said love was worthless;or when people were surprised by her magic knowledge,and she looked offended.

Cont. Besides, those behaviors show that Silena can be quite passionate and proud, what probably made her vulnerable to manipulation(her romantic nature didn’t help). Besides, Silena herself thought she was saving lives. I believe Luke’s words would sound truer to her if she cared about him than from a dispassionate perspective. Besides, if Luke managed to lure Percy to near death with a friendly smile and soda,despite Percy’s instincts saying no,I believe he could do it to Silena…

Cont. By what I read, your only issue was the age. However, I think that was something like “death of the author” in canon,as she didn’t get one. In fact, I rather like the idea of Silena being an older camper,including than Charles(if 18 years old girls date boys in their 20’s…),both in canon and in your fic. In your fic,it could make her Tori ’ s peer. In canon,it’d fit the whole “role model” stuff we had going on HoO.

what’s up dude! thanks, i’m glad to hear you’re enjoying it!

that’s how i interpreted it when i read the books (or how i remember interpreting it, at least, i haven’t read the series in a while) like, being the spy meant she was a traitor, which is also a comment abt her character (i.e., may she’s not the greatest person–for the lack of a better word–bc she was a traitor). when clarisses declares she’s a hero, i assumed it was supposed to be juxtaposed to her being a traitor. which is a roundabout way to say that the ultimate end is the same, whereas the perspective is different? but i can see where others are coming from–that the campers would be more mad bc of the fact that she was easily manipulated by luke, rather than her being the spy

i guess i can see where ppl are coming from regarding it being an insult to teen girls (i’d really like to see those posts tho, bc i actually haven’t seen anyone talk abt that–i somehow manage to avoid discourse like we’re two opposing magnets, my d-list x-men power), bc it plays off the stereotype that teen girls are so boy crazy, they’re easily manipulated by any good-looking guy that smiles in their direction. it doesn’t help that she’s a child of aphrodite. and what i mean by that is, i think, ppl often water down what aphrodite is the goddess of. when ppl say, “she’s the goddess of love and beauty” ppl often think she’s the goddess of, “being vain and romantic/sexual love” (not true btw, fite me, i will gladly jump into that discourse)

but anyway, back to my main point, i can see how it may play off a teen girl stereotype (rick is good at doing that sometimes, which isn’t entirely his fault, bc like i said abt toxic masculinity, it’s so ingrained in our society, it’s hard to unlearn and we often fall into those stereotypes if we’re not fully aware of them and consciously thinking about them), but i also don’t entirely agree with that argument, either

now i could be wrong, esp since i haven’t read any of this discourse, so i haven’t read ppl’s reasoning or arguments, but it sounds very surface-level White Feminism™ and what i mean by that is that there are more grey areas to this argument, okay, so put away your pitchforks and put out your torches and, i mean, also that this argument is coming from ppl who want to seem like they’re woke, but then turn around and continue to do or say things that are insidiously bigoted

like i said, i can see how it plays into a stereotype, but if we’re going by rick’s canon (which we totally don’t have to, but for this argument’s sake we are) she’s young and impressionable, luke is handsome and charming–if another young person were in her position, we’d probably see the same thing. young ppl are easy to manipulate, they just are. they’re still learning abt the world, and how it works, and that maybe not everyone has good intentions. not to mention they’re still trying to find themselves, and they look to peers, mentors, and ppl who are respected (for whatever reason) for cues to how they should act and think. it’s like trying on clothes or taste-testing foods–they’re trying out opinions. if they don’t like the “taste” of an opinion, then they learn, grow, and change. some ppl instantly connect with an opinion (which could be bigoted or not) and not explore further, or could be sheltered and just not have the opportunity to experience anything else.

the opinion here: the gods are bad. the person she’s looking to for guidance: luke. plain and simple

and, as you say anon, percy even fell for luke’s charms (despite the warning signs!! and percy is most def Not Straight, so luke was also using that fact against percy as well, whether rick luke knew it or not). so, ya know, there ya go

now, i think rick chose a child of aphrodite, and a girl, bc he thought he was turning a trope on its head–you’d never expect (from the stereotype of what aphrodite stands for) silena to be a spy, to work for kronos of all ppl titans. do you see what i mean? i think he was going for an elle woods effect–except in the polar opposite direction. the ends is the same, where this girl who is often underestimated (like elle) turns out to do something no one expected of her (in silena’s case, being the spy, which takes a lot of guts, nerve, and smarts–the opposite of what ppl expect from aphrodite, based on a reductive stereotype)

and that’s where the real issue lies, not that she was a teen girl, but rather some of the decisions the author made under wrong assumptions

i agree that the alternatives aren’t as sincere or make as much sense. silena didn’t experience a whole lot of strife regarding her mom or the gods in general, so she’d have no reason to hate them as luke does–she’d have no reason to be the spy for luke if he were to simply use that argument to get her to kronos’s side. and maybe she would’ve joined kronos under “her cabin was being disrespected,” however, it was’t being disrespected by the gods themselves, right? not like the minor gods, not like nemesis or hecate. the disrespect comes more from the ppl around her–the ppl who assume the wrong things abt aphrodite when they hear the words “love” and “beauty.” so that alternative reason doesn’t hold a lot of water if you really think abt it

i also agree with you: that her passion and pride made her more easily manipulated, and also that luke’s words would mean more coming from a more passionate and personal perspective. luke fed her lines that played into her character (like how kronos fed luke lines that played into his hatred for the gods). if she felt passionate abt helping save ppl (and it’s coming from someone she likes, someone she looks up to), then she’d  be the spy for sure. if she had a crush on luke, more for him to use against her, right? that’s just how it goes sometimes, ya know? her crush are her rose-colored glasses, add that on top of “you’d be saving lives” and, well, luke’s got her wrapped around kronos’s finger

yeah, the age thing is a big sticking point for me, just bc based on the timeline of things, she’s several years younger than luke (which make his kiss, in my story, really gross). if beckendorf was going to college during tlo, he was probably at the least 18, and silena was probably around the same age. by this time, luke is 23, so that means that she’s abt 5 years younger? is five years a huge deal between older ppl (like mid- to late-twenties and beyond)? not at all. but with younger ppl (teens and early twenties), it’s a HUGE gap in age, and a HUGE deal.

but like you say, i think rick is hitting that point of “death of the author” (esp with more recent events…btw, jason is totally alive and well, and if you think or try to tell me differently, then you can meet me in a denny’s parking lot at 3am), so we can totes not follow canon and age both silena and beckendorf up. not to mention, there’s no specific age that ppl go to college (just in general most ppl starting college are from 17-20) so it’s completely fine for beckendorf to be going to college at 22, 23. and a 2 yr age difference (regarding beckendorf at 20, dating silena at 18) is totes better than a 5 yr difference for sure

i really like tori and silena being peers, and i if i had been more comfortable breaking canon (and knew what i know now, then), it would’ve been fun to write (but eeeyyy, it’s fun to think abt, so there may be headcanons in your future regarding this). finally, you’re right, i think it would make “silena as a role model” so much more powerful if she had been/was older in canon

thanks for sending these in! i had a lot of fun talking and thinking abt all the points you brought up/made, and i hope to continue this discussion, if you want!