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datastate · 3 years

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how do you feel about lurien's butler? i mean, what with them being so dedicated to staying by lurien's side that they ended up getting infected. in an au where lurien survives, how you would go about bringing them back? would you bring them back at all, or would you have them stay infected/dead?

^ literally everyone @ lurien’s butler. /j

putting this under the cut because 1. it got long and 2. i talk a bit abt starvation and its effects in this, so. be cautious.

okay. so. while it can be agreed that all of lurien’s servants were dedicated to him (implied because he was literally just an all around decent person who actually earned his respect and, in my canon, this was exaggerated not only because of his relationship with the king but also the idea that there were previous governers that. hm. Not so great. the bar was in the ground before lurien came around) i do think part of his butler’s dedication was genuine love for him, whether that be romantic or not is up to anyone. either way, i think they were close enough to care abt each other, even if there was realistically some disconnect between the two from their ‘ranks' and publicity / importance to the city.

the reason i believe lurien’s servants were still in the spire despite his ‘passing’ is because, initially, they were to be moved over to serving hegemol (the heart’s guardian) or leaving that sort of work altogether. hegemol saw no need for these services because his house is pretty much just a small cozy place for himself and just asked them to continue looking after the spire, ensuring it didn’t end up fading along with him. they cared for it for both lurien and hegemol, and the overseers (the ones who took over after lurien became a dreamer) used the lower floors to attend to their own meetings and whatever else. only lurien’s servants were allowed in the upper floors with few guards between other than his knights.

they were still working here when the infection returned. in my canon, it was abt 3 months in when the city shut down most transport. hegemol had left the moment he saw that the king’s plan, despite everything sacrificed for it, had failed. and soon after soul master was slowly infected as well and began experimenting on the bugs trapped there. after soul master was denounced by the king, transport was eventually completely shut down bc the infection was becoming Too Much. this became trouble by the time the second year of the infection 2.0 began because people were beginning to realize how difficult it’d be to get a hold of food and a lot of them began to hoard what they could. the spire was better off than most others, but it became clear even they would eventually die from either this or the infection. the dead just below where lurien rests are the ones who faced starvation before the radiance could get to them. everyone the radiance has infected were alive just enough to sustain them for as long as need be.

lurien’s butler (who i’ll call aster from now on to make it easier for me) was. both lucky and unfortunate for this. they are alive, yeah, but they’re on the verge of starvation as well and that is Not Great for their physical state! they were meant to die with the others, and were only ‘saved’ from this by giving into the radiance. imo it seems likely that theirs was more voluntary, with the hunter’s journal note of the harder people try to resist the more the infection takes over (i think? this i canon? i haven’t checked in a While) and with the fact their thoughts are still Mostly coherent even after this long of being infected, esp w these thoughts being abt lurien. i think it’s safe to assume it was some figure similar enough to him that lured them in, along with their whole. shitty city situation.

in the au where lurien survives, or really any ending where the radiance is defeated, i think it was because of this lack of resistance that aster also lives on, as is the same with most others who were willingly infected, caught off-guard by the infection, or initially resisted but soon just. Gave up w their attempts.

aster needs to really Force themself to actually eat for the first few weeks after falling out of the infection / radiance’s force, and it’s. an awful experience recovering from near-starvation normally, let alone if it’s been coming for a century or more. they would not survive unless another was there with them (which i’ll assume in this case is lurien himself) because they would not be able to move themself and find food, especially with the assumption the city’s been cleared out. even after All This they’re definitely not in a good physical state, and they’ll never be able to go on as they were ever again. not only did the infection fuck with their body, but prolonged starvation usually shuts down internal functions. they probably can’t move long distances anymore (like between the city and archive, as they once did) and even ‘shorter’ distances (within the city) will wear them out and they’ll feel faint and/or nauseous. i’m definitely projecting the current world situation, but i also think they’ll have obvious trouble with breathing as well, sometimes, and feel like the infection’s caught in their throat.

when bringing them back (and characterizing them in general), you need to keep in mind... aster’s a ‘cowardly husk’. they wouldn’t want to admit to anyone that they willingly gave into the radiance, especially to lurien who literally gave his life to prevent this. they feel awful for people needing to pay attention to them while they’re recovering from the radiance to keep them alive, and as soon as they’re physically able to, try to return everything so people don’t think too less of them or begin to ‘suspect’ that the fact they were infected in the first place was because they were selfish. character development ideally happens from there, which i will try to go into when i finally write my post - embrace the void ending fic BSBVHDMJ i have the outline for it but it’s actually writing that is :ah:

obviously ‘cowardly husk’ isn’t their entire personality, but it’s probably a key point and it probably means they tend to conceal things to avoid what they’re afraid of, whether that be confrontation or loss (thru denial) or whatever else. if u ever want to characterize them i find it’s a bit easier to add that they’re sort of a humorous person too? they’re casual and used to dropping quips and whatever else and initially it’s an “oh fuck” moment in front of lurien but they realize he’s not completely “official” in his down time so then they can vibe there, at least.

#i have. Thoughts.#long post #ask #Anonymous #character death #hk posting

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loseyoutoloveme · 4 years

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can you do a rundown/review of every song on folklore like you've done for selena? and what your current top 5 are??

considering this is officially one of my top 3 favourite albums ever i’m v happy to 😌! warning, absolutely every single song will be ranked 10/10

thank for wanting to know my thoughts :( i can’t believe anybody would volunteer to read this JDNSKSDJKDS

first of all, my top 5 is probbbbably gonna change (maybe not tho bc my lover top 5 hasn’t really changed a lot), but for now, i think it’s: august > seven > mad woman > illicit affairs > mirrorball

THE 1:

ngl my very first thought was that it reminded me of same love by macklemore skdjdskjdskjsd but not in a bad way!

literally some of the prettiest lyrics, i knew just from this song that this would top red as her best lyrically (best album in general)

honestly just rly sad and sweet and one of those songs that has such a universal sound i feel?

also the simplest song of the album lyrically (also not in a bad way, just like objectively this is the easiest subject matter on the album with the least opaque lyrics), so a really good opener

best lyrics: “we never painted by the numbers baby but we were making it count/you know the greatest loves of all time are over now” and “we were something don’t you think so/roaring twenties tossing pennies in the pool/and it my wishes came true it would’ve been you”

a cute girl, 10/10

CARDIGAN:

i was surprised by the darkish sound of this one

idk what that like clanking sound in the background is but i find it a lil distracting in the first half of the song - but if i ever find out what it is and it has some symbolic meaning/purpose for being there (i assume it does) i’ll accept it sdjknsd

i love the nostalgia that is so present in like almost every song on this album :(

also the music video is stunning and frames the entire album in the most interesting way, metaphor-wise

best lyrics: “i knew you’d linger like a tattoo kiss/knew you’d haunt all of my what-ifs/the smell of smoke would hang around this long/cause i knew everything when i was young/i knew i’d curse you for the longest time/chasin’ shadows in the grocery line/i knew you’d miss me when the thrill expired/and you’d be standing in my front porch light/and i knew you’d come back to me”

10/10

THE LAST GREAT AMERICAN DYNASTY:

love this one bc it’s like a nice lil exhale in an album filled with angst, like it’s cute and boppy without being aggressive

i’m suddenly absolutely obsessed with rebekah harkness, particularly the “bitch pack” thing and her dyeing someone’s dog green

i love taylor’s storytelling and i love how that’s always been a big part of her approach to songwriting. this is taylor at her best narration, like starlight but so much better. this is a type of songwriting that is so underused these days, esp by mainstream artists and i love so much that she has always used it and been so invested in it

the pronoun change made me screech. sooo goooood

taylor’s obv a deeply autobiographical artist which is why it’s so incredible to hear her tell OTHER people’s stories and somehow make them so her own. like i think it’s mostly the english major in me that just gets so emotional over that...... the way that other people’s stories became our own through the way we tell them......

this song is def the one that is most explicit about the album’s theme of telling stories but ones that tell something about her (and about her listeners too), by switching to personal pronouns at the end. it sets up a pattern for the rest of the album, where each song is about one thing (the actual story she’s telling) but also about a bunch of other things.

a good example of why she’s the greatest songwriter of this generation

best lyrics: “there goes the maddest woman this town has ever seen/she had a marvelous time ruining everything”

10/10

EXILE:

bon iver’s voice was a full shock to the system the first time i listened and idk why sdkjnds it is just so deep and i was not at all expecting it esp after the cuteness of tlgad

anyway these lyrics are GORGEOUS

i love a duet where the 2 singers’ lyrics are meant to be directed at each other. is there a word for that type of duet idk but it always makes a duet infinitely better

the miscommunication exemplified in the bridge...... chef’s kiss heartbreaking

out of all the songs this is the one that makes me feel the most like i am in the middle of a forest in winter. i can already picture myself listening to this song in december with the sound of a crackling fire in the background mmmmmmmm my exact vibe

best lyrics: “you’re not my homeland anymore/so who am i defending now?/you were my town, now i’m in exile seeing you out” and “i’m not your problem anymore/so who am i offending now?”

10/10

MY TEARS RICOCHET:

this chorus BRRROOOOKE ME

writing songs presumably about the masters situation and framing them as breakup songs was absolutely galaxy brain

i feel like the image of tears ricocheting has like a million layers to it and is just suuuuch a smart metaphor

also just such a visually rich song ? so is every song on the album but the metaphors of this song are all just so visual

best lyrics: “i didn’t have it in myself to go with grace/and you’re the hero flying around saving face/and if i’m dead to you why are you at the wake?” and “i can go anywhere i want/anywhere i want, just not home”

10/10

MIRRORBALL:

ok so i did like this one on first listen, i loved absolutely everything on first listen, but it didn’t hit my top 5 until like 8 listens later, so it’s def a big grower and i think could be a huge fan fav by next year

the self-awareness in her writing will never fail to amaze me

the way that life is just performing...... yeah

but it’s crazy to me that a person could be like “i’m a compulsive people pleaser and performer and i’ll do anything to get ppl to like me” and that leads to “i am a disco ball” like ???? her brain is so big. it’s such a gorgeous metaphor.... and the circus imagery AHHHHH

best lyrics: “i’m still on that tightrope/i’m still trying everything to get you laughing at me/i’m still a believer but i don’t know why/i’ve never been a natural, all i do is try try try/i’m still on that trapeze/i’m still trying everything to keep you looking at me” and “i can change everything about me to fit in”

10000/10

SEVEN:

this one simply rips my heart out

at first i was like oh this is so weird and then the chorus just would not leave my head

for me personally, nostalgia is literally 90% of my personality and just for so many personal reasons the thought of childhood ending and all of the growing pains that come along with that have been at the forefront of my psyche for the past year. so it just kills me whenever i find a song like this one and it kills me that taylor specifically has several songs about this topic and this is 100000% the best of them all. like it’s the most beautiful experience to have your thoughts and feelings and fears expressed so perfectly by a total stranger, and that’s rly what art is about and i love taylor for doing that for me and millions of other people

i just feel like this song brings up so many vivid beautiful memories of childhood for so many people, like being outside in the summer and screaming and being free. ugh

the pause after “i hit my peak at seven” before completing the phrase........ OOOOOOOOOF IT HITS TOO HARD

and sound-wise, just so off-beat and cool and unique

best lyrics: “i hit my peek at seven/feet in the swing across the creek” and “are there still beautiful things?” and “love you to the moon and to saturn/passed down like folk songs/the love lasts so long” and “before i learned civility/i used to scream ferociously/any time i wanted”

100000000000/10

AUGUST:

i knew immediately that this would be my favourite tbh like i could sense it the second it began

i wrote my first impression thoughts in my journal and you can tell the exact moment i got to the bridge bc i just started screaming sdnjksdkjsdn

i would 100% get a tattoo that said “to live for the hope of it all”

everything about this song is LITERALLY flawless like i have.......no notes......no thoughts.......it’s just an absolutely perfect song

best lyrics: “back when we were still changing for the better/wanting for was enough/for me it was enough/to live for the hope of it all" and “august sipped away like a bottle of wine/cause you were never mine”

100000000000000000000000000/10

THIS IS ME TRYING:

this song is rly good but i keep forgetting it exists omg :/ once i learn all of the lyrics i’ll appreciate her more

the strings are gorgeous

i was rly surprised that this one was done with jack instead of aaron just bc the bridge of this sounds SOOOO the national

these lyrics could be interpreted in so many different ways depending on the listener’s experiences and that’s beautiful

best lyrics: “i was so ahead of the curve/the curve became a sphere/fell behind all my classmates and i ended up here” and “it’s hard to be at a party when i feel like an open wound/it’s hard to be anywhere these days when all i want is you/you’re a flashback in a film reel on the one screen in my town”

10/10

ILLICIT AFFAIRS:

that soft high note on “down,” “stop,” etc is sooooo nice

i don’t have many thoughts on it, it’s just so soft, SOOOOOO gorgeous instrumentally and lyrically

best lyrics: “it’s born from just one single glance/but it dies and it dies and it dies/a million little times” and “don’t call me kid, don’t call me baby/look at this godforsaken mess that you made me/you showed me colours you know i can’t see with anyone else” and “you taught me a secret language i can’t speak with anyone else/and you know damn well/for you i would ruin myself/a million little times”

100000/10

INVISIBLE STRING:

like i said about tlgad, this is a nice little break from all the angst and pain and anger sdnjksdnskjsd just a sweet little break to remind u there are good things in the world too. so placed really well in the tracklist imo

super super super super cute chorus

so many pretty melodies

absolutely an autumn song btw

best lyrics: “time, mystical time/cutting me open, then healing me fine”

10/10

MAD WOMAN:

i literally lost my mind listening to this for the first time

i have such a thing for scorned women anthems like i will immediately love it whatever it is

the pure rage when she says “cause you took everything from me” gives me full body chills

it is just so eerie and haunting and perfect

best lyrics: “women like hunting witches too/doing your dirtiest work for you/it’s obvious that wanting me dead/has really brought you two together” and “every time you call me crazy i get more crazy/what about that?” and “good wives always know/she should be mad, should be scathing like me/but no one like a man woman”

1000000/10

EPIPHANY:

i find this one so hard to listen to but it’s absolutely beautiful and devastating and so heavily relevant for i think the whole world rn

the heart monitor and the trumpets tying both of the topics in together is so genius and so heartbreaking

i think will be the sygb of folklore where it makes everybody cry so much that it becomes a skip despite being a beautiful song

best lyrics: “something med school did not cover/someone’s daughter, someone’s mother” and “some things you just can’t speak about”

10/10

BETTY:

first of all THE HARMONICA

this made me so happy bc it’s just so debut and so fearless and it made me SOOOOO nostalgic on my first listen, because it really felt to me like i was getting to listen to a song from debut or fearless for the very first time again

it’s just so sweet and cute and simple and yet another very self-aware moment of looking back to her past material/subject matter

best lyrics: “would you have me? would you want me?/would you tell me to go fuck myself/or lead me to the garden?” and “i’m only seventeen, i don’t know anything/but i know i miss you”

10/10

PEACE:

the bass at the beginning is soooooo nice

this miiiiiight be the strongest song on the album lyrics-wise but idk yet

not much to say, it’s just so gorgeous

best lyrics: “i’m a fire and i’ll keep your brittle heart warm/if your cascade ocean wave blues come/all these people think love’s for show/but i would die for you in secret” and “would it be enough if i could never give you peace?” and “i talk shit with my friends, it’s like i’m wasting your honour”

10/10

HOAX:

i have a feeling this one will be underrated/underappreciated bc it’s just simple and dark and the last song, but this is....... a lyrical masterpiece

i feel like i need to be playing this on vinyl with all of the lights off and just a candle burning yknow, like there’s just something so dark and ancient about it

best lyrics: “my winless fight/this has frozen my ground” and “your faithless love’s the only hoax i believe in/don’t want no other shade of blue but you/no other sadness in the world would do” and “you knew it still hurt underneath my scars/from when they pulled me apart/but what you did was just as dark/darling this was just as hard”

10/10

OVERALL: 10000000000/10 literally one of the best albums i have ever heard and (while i wouldn’t put it past her to top it) absolutely the best work of her career. so complex and layered and emotional and painful and genuine and different. not to get ahead of myself but this is/should be considered her blue, her rumours, her abbey road....... god. can’t wait to listen to this album for the rest of my life and play it for my future children and just watch it live on as the greatest work of one of the most important artists of the 21st century

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lovelylogans · 5 years

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*cracks knuckles* it’s time for me to go galaxy brain on main.

i present: an overanalysis of virgil’s deposition (specifically, deceit weaseling badgering the witness)

so, virgil is very clearly reluctant to take the stand:

to which deceit responds “very well. you don’t usually have anything helpful to add anyway.”

to me, this reminded me of the past lines (i forget which eps and i’ll edit this post when i find it) in which numerous sides speak about virgil being unhelpful, pre-accepting anxiety arc: “virgil always seems to get you down,” “we’re talkin’ toons, dr. gloom!” in “becoming a cartoon” in which the other sides actively ostracized virgil bc he was unhelpful, or brought the group down.

let’s take a look at accepting anxiety part two (which is only 13 minutes long and we thought it was a MARATHON, weren’t we cute back then?) when virgil rises up, he says “i’ve decided to duck out... i removed myself from the equation. i quit. decided it wasn’t worth it. it didn’t seem like i was wanted. you all made that pretty clear anytime i showed up.”

later in that ep,

this clearly rankles virgil, so he takes the stand: agitated, on edge, keyed up—precisely as deceit wants him.

“okay! ask me your questions.”

look at his posture, the tone of his voice—he’s hunched forward, arms crossed, bangs in his face. he’s on defense (from the defendant i’m so sorry i’ll go) and he’s irritated. deceit then asks him the clarifying question:

“you are in control of thomas’ fears, are you not?” honestly, it’s a fair question. he poses a similar question to logan earlier (logic as an oversimplification) though he does eventually highlight logan’s other roles (for instance, his punctuality.)

however, look at that phrasing. you are in control of thomas’ fears. not you are thomas’ fear response. not you represent thomas’ fear. you are in control of those fears.

back to accepting anxiety part two! “i’ve always aimed to protect you!”

to quote logan: “look, anxiety, you’re a natural fight-or-flight reflex. that’s what you’re instilled in humans to act as.”

to quote virgil himself an ep ago: “me being able to elicit fear doesn’t mean i haven’t grown.”

virgil’s been established, yes, as anxiety. however, it’s anxiety that he doesn’t want to overpower thomas with. in accepting anxiety two, as thomas says, he wants to work with anxiety to overcome those fears, rather than without him. virgil can elicit fear, true, but that doesn’t mean he intends for it to be so aggressively overwhelming—or, at least, that’s been my interpretation of canon, and if i’m missing something please feel free to let me know.

back to the most recent ep!

“oh my go-we all know each other! who are these clarifications for?? CUT TO THE CHASE!” again, i think this might be needling at virgil’s past. as fear/anxiety—someone not to include, someone to excise, someone to, well, fear. keep away from.

but look at how agitated he is. he’s so clearly on guard here, he’s so clearly defensive, he’s lashing out and shouting. after two questions. and admittedly one pointed comment. virgil does not want him here, he does not want to be in this situation, he wants out. cut to the chase indeed.

“is it true that you once said that ‘weddings are outdated, overly expensive pagentry?’”

i just really liked that imitation. i do also think, though, that this imitation tells us something about the past deceit and virgil relationship (friends, enemies, whatever it was.) personally, i can only get better at interpreting people the more time i spend around them. for example, a professor i have 3 days a week this semester? i can do a passable “oh, my” impression of her voice. but my roommate, who i have known since i was about 13? she and i have literally started saying “hell yeah!” in the exact same tone of voice, at the exact same time. i can do a much better impersonation of her. and granted deceit and virgil have the same face and similar voices, but look at deceit’s impersonation of patton (pretty spot-on) and logan (less passable) and then look at his impersonation of virgil. that’s on-the-nose. that’s practically perfect.

that’s an impersonation you get after a lot of time, study, and practice.

“yeah, well, i also once swore to thomas that the drink he left alone in the other room for ten seconds was definitely poisoned and if he drank it, he would die. i’m not exactly a beacon of truth.”

first, it’s just nice to know that i’m not the only one who panics about drinks getting poisoned. second, that line i bolded. that’s a turning point. that is a target. that is what deceit will narrow his focus in on.

“so you’ve changed your mind then?” see? narrowed in. focused. virgil knows it, too. look at his posture: he’s drawn his shoulders back, though he still has his arms in front of him.

“next question.” however, i do think that there could also be an undercurrent of history there, which i won’t speculate about; i’m gonna just assume that it doubles back to the dilemma of this episode, ie, the wedding vs the callback.

deceit chuckles, there, and let me just say thomas that is a VERY good evil chortle, 10/10. anyway, “very well. as thomas’ anxiety, do you have any relevant information about his norepinephrine levels in regards to these two conflicting commitments?”

SCIENCE BREAK! note that i’m a journalism/english major and i nearly flunked out of chemistry in high school, so i’m mostly relying on google here. anyway, deceit specifically mentions norepinepherine, which directly stimulates adrenergic receptors. however, in my own research (again, not super known to be trusted here) i’ve found that anxiety is epinephrine. minor differences, sure, mostly centered on the effects that they have (norepinepherine, for instance, causes your blood vessels to narrow which increases blood pressure level, which epinepherine doesn’t do.) epinephrine, however, is the primary aspect of “flight-or-flight” response, aka virgil’s specialty. norepinephrine results in the formation of epinephrine: so essentially, deceit is asking if there’s an increase in norepinepherine, which would result in an increase in epinephrine: basically, is there gonna be a bad/anxious time happening any time soon.

science break over! virgil does not have the patience for it that i just spent researching and you just spent reading, though:

“i think it’s ridiculous that anyone is entertaining any of this. guys, he’s a liar! you literally know him as deceit!”

it’s true, we do know him as deceit. we also knew virgil as anxiety, which is where a popular strain of theory has popped up: ie, virgil being known as anxiety, and the name ‘virgil’ being a sort of lie. i’m not sure how much i agree with it, though i do think it’s a viable fan theory.

“glass houses, virgil. you yourself said that you are not a beacon of truth.”

his tone—especially when he chides virgil about glass houses with the finger wag and the little tsk—is mocking. he’s taunting virgil. as in beware calling me a liar—we both know that you aren’t as honest as you seem.

“yeah, because i’m wrong a lot.” virgil’s still on the defensive.

“oh, so you’ve never been reluctant to share anything with the group then?”

this. this is the line that makes me think that it’s not quite centered on the name, coupled with deceit’s next line. if any of you have siblings—you know how you taunt them with something, or tease them, and they say “DON’T” or “STOP” or you get that response that you were looking for, because little kids are jerks, and you just say “whaat, i just meant insert thing here...” it’s vaguely like the “i’m not touching you!” defense. this scene gives me very similar vibes. deceit is definitely taunting virgil over something that he didn’t share—whether it’s with the named sides we’ve got, or if it’s with the unseen friends of deceit.

let’s throw it back an ep, shall we? to that endscreen. “you are hilarious virgil, you always have been...” and “just be sure to keep up that personal growth, virgil. maybe soon, you could be rid of us all.”

definite history. definitely a pattern of needling virgil over their mutual past.

“don’t.”

“what?! i just meant your name...”

look at him. he’s delighted he’s gotten the reaction he wanted. he’s delighted that thomas is now glancing back and forth between them, curious about that history. and again, see, look, the petulant little “whaaat? i just meant...” and hey, look, another moment of deceit needling something of virgil’s past with the sides: they kept trying to figure out his name, saying his name was a big thing for him, and now deceit is bringing that up, too.

“DON’T!”

he’s an ANGERY boi! he does not want deceit prying, he does not want him bringing this up in front of the others, especially thomas, and he does not want to revisit the past.

“maybe that’s why it’s so easy for you to recognize me for what i am. like i said before, it takes a liar to know a liar.”

this is the point where patton breaks in, and this little scene is ferreted away for fanders to overanalyze until they’re dizzy (guilty!) but hey, that parting line, huh?

it takes a liar to know a liar.

so i think the main question is: what’s virgil lying about? is it his past as a “dark” side (which i think is pretty widely accepted fanon, and very heavily hinted in canon) or is it about a potential betrayal he did to the dark sides, or is it something that the “light” sides (and therefore the audience) don’t know about virgil yet? something that could really affect their trust of him?

either way, this scene was a little over a minute, and yet it provided this much for analysis, so. even if i’m wrong about most of it, i am not wrong about the fact that the deceit and virgil conflict is gonna be intense, everybody.

#my post #text #ts spoilers #sanders sides spoilers

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letmetellyouaboutmyfeels · 5 years

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Um, you were saying something about an essay on Lucy being submissive to women? Just asking, only if you feel like writing it (: (bc I just read your meta TED talks on Wyatt and Flynn and yesss, mooooreeee, please, this is just great)

findwhatyourefightingfor said: You’re holding out on us, Mads. Where’s TED Talk number three - AKA “Damn, Lucy’s a Domme”?

Ahahaha I was wondering if someone was going to ask me about that. Let the trilogy be complete! If anyone hasn’t read them, the Wyatt meta that started it all is here, explaining why I view/write Wyatt as submissive, and the Flynn meta about him being a ‘switch’ is here. I personally suggest you read those first, Wyatt then Flynn, since this meta builds off of them.

Without further ado, Lucy is a domme with men and a sub with women and you can’t change my mind. In this essay I will…

…explain my reasoning.

Now, before we fully begin I think I should clarify something that I realized I didn’t explain fully in the first Wyatt meta:

Dominance/submissiveness plays a huge role in your sexuality, but sexuality doesn’t always play a role in your dominance/submissiveness.

Think of it this way: all apples are fruit, but not all fruit is an apple. I touched on this a bit when I was explaining code switching and how one can be dominant in the classroom but submissive at home, but I didn’t get as explicit as I should have.

I’m bringing this up real quick because I realized that my metas didn’t fully explain that. So when I’m talking about Wyatt being submissive, I’m not necessarily talking about why I think he’s bisexual–that’s another meta for another time. Same with Flynn. I do think that Wyatt, Flynn, and Lucy are all bi (or pan or whatever term you personally prefer, and I’ve also seen people make the case for Flynn being demi which I can get behind) but their sexuality is a separate issue from why I think they’re dominant or submissive–or in Flynn’s case switching depending on his mood and the individual.

SO, if anyone wants to ask me why I think Lucy, Wyatt, and/or Flynn are attracted to genders both like and unlike their own, drop me a line, but that’s a separate discussion from this one, which is–in situations both sexual and non-sexual, Lucy is a domme with men and submissive with women.

Let’s start with the men.

Lucy’s arc, as established from our first meeting with her, is to become the leader that she was meant to be. We meet her calm and collected while delivering a lecture, establishing her as an authority figure in her field–and then immediately watch her lose the chance to get tenure. It’s not framed as “you’re a newbie who needs more time,” it’s framed as something she deserves being taken from her.

Sidenote: It is pointed out, rightfully, that Lucy is on the younger side and that being chosen for the time team project is a bit of a surprise given the older and more studied academics in her field. However, while there are academics who might have been more qualified to be chosen as historian, that doesn’t change the fact that Lucy is framed as someone who deserves more recognition in her field and isn’t getting it.

We then throughout season one see her establishing her authority with Wyatt and Rufus. Wyatt doesn’t always accept her authority, but Lucy continues to gently assert it. By the end of season one, we see Rufus and Wyatt have accepted her as their leader, especially Wyatt who goes so far as to ask Lucy for permission for all his big decisions and goes into a mental tailspin when she’s kidnapped because he’s lost his authority figure.

Lucy’s dominance really comes into play in two other areas: historical people and Flynn.

With Flynn, when Lucy first meets him she’s understandably scared. But submissive? Hardly. By their second meeting, she’s getting in his face and giving him what for. She is never once scared of Flynn and in fact tries to control their conversation. Flynn is the one stuck in a corner struggling to prove his point to her. Even when he kidnaps her, Lucy controls their conversation in the café, and she is firm in her beliefs. She’s confident that Flynn won’t hurt her, to the point where in 1x14 when Karl has her by the arm she orders Flynn to tell Karl to let her go, without a doubt that Flynn, and therefore Karl, will do as he’s told. Flynn has to literally kidnap Wyatt and hold him hostage to get Lucy to (sullenly) agree to do what Flynn tells her and even then she double crosses him. Lucy has zero, zilch, nada, goose egg, fear or submissiveness around Flynn. In fact her only fears are for those around them that she knows Flynn might hurt. The one time, one time, she shows fear of Flynn is when he drags her into the Mothership at the end of 1x10, and at that point both she and Flynn are completely emotionally strung out, they’re both crying, they’re both at the end of their ropes and spitting mad at each other. It’s not a normal situation between them.

Then in season two, once they’re on the same side? Lucy in 2x04 literally asks Flynn, “can I trust you to listen to me?” She’s not taking him on this mission if he doesn’t submit to her. Not because she thinks he’ll hurt people (unlike Rufus) but because she is in charge, and homeboy better respect that. From that point forward, what does Flynn do in literally every episode? Defer to Lucy. In 2x06, 2x07, and 2x09 he looks to her for information and knowledge. In 2x06 he also explicitly puts all the power in their relationship in her hands. Flynn bolsters and encourages Lucy when she needs it, and he points out destructive behavior like her drinking, but he never tries to assert authority over her. He knows who’s in charge.

Even before 2x04, though, Lucy’s already in charge with Flynn. When she meets him in prison in 2x02, Flynn is pissed at her and so tries to provoke her. Lucy doesn’t rise to the bait. His words do hurt her, but she stays calm and in control. She holds the reins here, not him, and she makes sure he knows it. Flynn even tries an empty threat, “this one’s free, next time it’ll cost you,” one that Lucy knows is empty because he proceeds to always give her whatever information she wants. She’s never once cowed by him. Thrown off her game in season one because of the journal? Yes. But cowed? Submissive? Not once.

Then there are the historical men they come across. I mean in 1x04 for the love of God, Wyatt’s submissive to Ian Fleming, Lucy sure as hell isn’t. Lucy challenges, rakes over the coals, chastises, and appeals to as an equal all the men they come across. It actually gets her into trouble, as we see in 2x07 when the policeman disregards her and tells Flynn to control her (a moment Flynn clearly finds amusing because, sir, you have that backwards). Lucy refuses to ever cede her authority to a man, which gets her a lot of raised eyebrows throughout history but also a lot of respect from the right people such as Washington, Robert Todd Lincoln, Ian Fleming, and others. In fact it’s her refusal to submit that often wins her the day, such as in 2x09 when she’s able to get Tubman the backup troops she needs to win the battle. Houdini clearly would walk on his hands over hot coals if she told him to. With men, there’s no question that Lucy wants to be in charge–and the narrative shows us how things backfire when she isn’t, further cementing the idea that she should be.

All of this matches Lucy’s narrative arc: she is a born leader, and she just needs to realize it. This is impeded, in part, by her Rittenhouse ‘destiny’. If we’re told by people we hate that we’re supposed to be xyz, then we do everything we can to avoid becoming that. But Lucy also has positive influences telling her she’ll be a great leader (Wyatt in season one, Flynn in seasons one and two, Denise at times, Rufus once or twice, historical people they come across). It’s her role to rise up and become the woman in the journal or a version of her: someone who is brilliant, capable, self-confident, and assured. Someone who walks into a room and people just fall silent.

Anyone who doubts Lucy’s natural dominance should just watch 1x08. While I like to think most women would rebel against the way Lucy is treated in that situation at NASA, Lucy is absolutely in control when she stands up to that man. He cowes before her. Lucy takes control and she loves it, she revels in it, because it’s her natural state of being with men and hoo boy does that guy sense it.

But then we see Lucy with women, and it’s a whole different story.

The biggest one is of course Lucy’s mother, Carol. We don’t know what Lucy’s life was like with Carol pre-pilot, but we can assume that while Carol’s negative traits were probably lessened since she was away from Rittenhouse, they were still there, since Lucy doesn’t suspect any big change in her mother’s personality all through season one. And in season one, we see that Carol is a very controlling and dominating personality. Lucy is very submissive to her mother.

This actually works to Lucy’s advantage at the beginning of season two. Carol is so used to Lucy being submissive to her that she never suspects Lucy plans to blow up the Mothership and betray them. Lucy’s submissiveness is natural and that means that Lucy has been submissive to her mother her whole life. We see even more of this when she tells Wyatt about her car crash–she was rebelling against her mother at the time, and the car crash set her straight, implying she hasn’t rebelled in any way since (and probably didn’t rebel much beforehand either). Throughout season two, Lucy struggles to stand up to her mother, at last seeing the light in 2x10 when Carol’s last words are how she wishes she’d asserted her authority and cult-mindset over Lucy even sooner, and Lucy realizes that her submissiveness to her mother worked against her all this time.

This also jumpstarts Lucy’s arc into Dark!Lucy, something I genuinely think the writers were going for (and if they weren’t they should have) in season three, where we would see Lucy try to assert her dominance in unhealthy, vengeful ways before balancing herself out and learning to assert it in healthy ways instead.

Other than Carol, however, we also see Lucy’s submissiveness in… well pretty much every woman she meets.

Lucy is genuinely excited to meet her various idols, men and women. She nearly bursts into tears when she meets President Lincoln (I mean, same girl, same). But whereas with the men she asserts her authority, with the women she asserts herself as a protege. She looks to the women for advice and guidance. Do any of the historical men they come across give Lucy a heart to heart or change Lucy’s worldview with their words? No. But Josephine Baker does, Judith does, Doc does, and so on. In fact, when the women aren’t the authority figures Lucy wants them to be, she’s upset and disappointed, she even nearly cries, such as in 2x07 when Grace Humiston won’t help her fellow women. Lucy’s devastated, because she went directly to Grace for help, and expected Grace to take charge of the situation.

Lucy is also far more flustered around the women than she ever is among the men. Her reaction to a young Denise in 2x08–well, let’s say it’s understandable why Denise thought Lucy was hitting on her. Lucy is starry-eyed over Josephine, and Lucy enthusiastically defends Judith’s right to sleep with whatever man she wants. When the men rebel against Lucy’s advice, she verbally slaps them. When the women do it, Lucy becomes upset and pleads with them. Her respect for women in authority is seen repeatedly, such as in 1x07, 2x09, and 2x03. She babbles, she trips over her words, she blushes, she stammers. The only man she gets close to doing this with is President Lincoln.

I will note that a major character flaw of Lucy’s (also her greatest strength) is her compassion. At worst, it makes her a people pleaser, someone who forgives too easily and lets people walk all over her. She does do this with Wyatt a bit. However, she does it far more with the women in her life than with the men. Lucy fights back when Wyatt tries to steamroll her, especially in season two, specifically 2x07 but at points in 2x05, 2x06, and so on. Contrast this with Lucy’s mother, who Lucy keeps trying to forgive and thinks she can reach, and Denise, who has more than once overruled Lucy while Lucy just takes it. Flynn actually notices this and contradicts it when he can, such as in 2x04 when he ignores Denise and makes it Lucy’s call on whether he’ll join them in Salem, and later on when Lucy struggles to assert her authority and Flynn, while casually eating cereal, tells her that she’s the expert and to tell them what’s what. One can be in a position of power and be too forgiving, and one can be submissive and never forgive at all. Lucy’s character flaw has nothing to do with her dom/sub attitude, but it’s easier for her to overcome it with the men in her life because of her naturally dominant attitude towards them in contrast to the women where she has to fight her natural submissive instinct.

Lucy never takes control in a situation with women unless she has to, and when she does, she’s frustrated. Out of her element. She doesn’t like it. In 2x07 she’s hurt and disappointed that she has to be the one to give the speech. As she tells Wyatt, she does it because no one else will, not because she wants to. In 2x08 she has to realize that this younger Denise is not the in charge, confident woman Lucy has come to know, and she’s upset by that and does everything she can to bring those dominant traits out in Denise. In 1x07 and 2x09 it’s all “with all due respect ma’am” and “I’m sorry to bother you ma’am” and “if you’ll just give me a moment ma’am.” With the men, Lucy demands attention, demands they listen, demands, demands, demands. With women, Lucy asks, she begs, she pleads.

And when the women do take control or take on more of a mentor role? Lucy is giddy. She’s smiling, she’s relaxed, she’s happy. Count the number of times Lucy is smiling excitedly, and the majority of the time it’s because she’s looking at a badass historical woman be their badass self. Hedy Lamarr, Katherine Johnson, Grace Humiston, Josephine Baker… the list goes on. Lucy adores watching these women do what they’re good at and take charge. Even when she’s tied to a post in 1x07 and her life is in danger, she’s stammering and smiling in glee to start out with because holy crap guys it’s Nonhelema!!!

This is also why Lucy struggles when she disagrees with Denise. She wants to trust Denise as her authority figure, but she disagrees with her and therefore has to stand up to her, and it’s not Lucy’s preferred state of being. She wants Denise to be the leader that Lucy craves, but Lucy’s arc is about becoming a leader herself, and that includes standing up to people she’d rather naturally submit to.

Sidenote: I would also argue that Lucy sees Denise as a personal mentor, both because she wants Denise to be her new mother figure (whether Lucy realizes it or not) and because - if you agree with me that Lucy is bi - Denise is a queer role model that Lucy knows personally and can look up to. But that’s a separate issue, one that ties into Lucy’s submissiveness but is more about her family issues than her dom/sub personality.

We also need to look at how Lucy reacts when she’s disrespected. When a man doesn’t listen to Lucy, she’s pissed off and offended and raring for a fight. Or she just runs roughshod right over them as she does with Bass Reeves (while Wyatt just shrugs in the background because hey, he’s not gonna try and stop her, what is he, an idiot?). When a woman doesn’t listen to Lucy, she’s genuinely hurt, she retreats into herself, she gets emotional, it’s personal.

To summarize:

1. Lucy’s arc is set up from her first introduction to be someone who is a natural leader and needs to accept that about herself and learn to assert her authority.

2. Lucy’s arc is hampered by her natural submissiveness towards women, namely her mother and Denise, and by the inability of many men to accept a woman as the dominant figure.

3. Lucy demands submissiveness from the men she deals with, both on the time team and in history, and enters all dialogue as a figure of authority.

4. This is contrasted by Lucy’s softer, pleading, stammering, unsure behavior from the women she deals with, both on the time team and in history, where she enters all dialogue as a figure of subordination.

5. Lucy’s happiest moments with men is where she’s allowed to call the shots and the man tells her so (examples include Wyatt in 2x03 and Flynn in 2x06). Her happiest moments with women are where the woman takes charge and mentors her (examples include Josephine Baker in 1x14).

7. When women fail to take on the leadership roles she wants from them such as in 2x07, Lucy is betrayed, hurt, and upset. When men fail to do what she wants, Lucy just gets pissed and declares she’ll do it herself (1x04, 1x12, 2x09).

The conclusion? Lucy is dominant with men and submissive with women.

And, since we haven’t actually seen Lucy having sex and therefore have no evidence to contrast this, we can assume she’s the same way in bed, submitting to her female sexual partner and dominating her male sexual partner. We do get glimpses of this, in fact, with Noah in season one and Wyatt in season two. With Noah, Lucy has control over the relationship, although she’s gentle and tries to think of Noah’s feelings. In 1x15/1x16 when she gets Noah to help Rufus, she doesn’t beg or plead, she orders and demands, which is part of why Noah becomes upset. She sets boundaries in her relationship with Noah and Noah doesn’t seem all that surprised that she’s doing so, suggesting that while her withdrawing from him is unusual, her calling the shots isn’t. And with Wyatt in 2x03, Lucy only initiates a sexual relationship with him after Wyatt puts the power of the relationship in her hands with his speech by the pool, and she then literally jumps him, catching Wyatt off-guard and putting him in the submissive role as she initiates the kissing and presumably the sex that follows.

Which means that I can write an entire fic based on Lucy being a dominatrix and NOBODY CAN STOP ME.

And there you have it. Thank you for coming to my TEDTalk. And if anyone has any further questions or wants me to share more of my thoughts regarding the sexual dynamics of any of our Timeless characters, drop me a line. I am the smut fairy after all. ;)

#mads answers things #mads rants #timeless #timeless meta #lucy preston #the unholy trinity is complete #join me next week as I talk about why the trash ot3 are all bi as fuck #or maybe someone will prompt me riya #who knows #not me

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