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leportraitducadavre · 1 year

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Fear and Racism - an analysis of Tobirama’s advocates

During all my years on Tumblr, I’ve found constantly the same argument regarding Tobirama’s views on the Uchiha, and while most (if not all) of his fans tend to justify his behavior over the vastly discussed COH theory that considered them biologically and emotionally unstable and thus, needing the government’s control, many others avid readers tend to defend or understand (at least partially) his views and decisions upon the premise of fear. More specifically, his fear of the Uchiha’s power, a sentiment born and developed during his youth as a member of his clan that lost beloved ones at Uchiha’s hands and was forced to face them in battle.

I will not dwell on the fact that many other (if not all) noble clans composing Konoha also incurred in such duels, and it’s likely that the Senju and other families also fought during the Warring State Era. The Uchiha was the Senju’s primary opposite force, yet not the only one, still, that “fear of insurrection” was solely focused upon a single family instead of a vast group of different people. In that sense, this fact alone disintegrates the argument that Tobirama was “prejudiced” rather than racist, as prejudice refers to a preconceived idea (positive or negative) about a particular person or group not based on prior experience nor knowledge, while racism involves an unequal distribution of power on the basis of ethnicity. The fact that Uchiha was the only clan forced to perform a single job (that limited their political influence and also prevented their complete integration in Konoha), were spied on by ANBU members, and were moved to the outskirts of the city (not by the Nidaime but following the same segregationist policies established by him), are actions performed by two different governments under the guidance of what became a systematized racist political structure.

The policies he made were around his personal racial prejudices as he’s the one and only who created the bureaucratic system of the village (something many of his stans gloat about) that, in itself, makes him racist. Those that state that he was just "prejudiced" conveniently leave aside the segregationist structure he built around his mindset. As someone in a position of power who, as was canonically shown and stated (by Hashirama, Orochimaru, and himself), didn't even bother to check his own prejudices, he's to be held accountable over the simple fact that he was the Hokage in charge of guaranteeing the safety, equity, and equality of those under his command.

Yet, while fear given his prior experiences is a fair claim as the basis for Tobirama’s bias, it’s also factual for the rest, as Madara (and other Uchiha) also lost relatives at Senju’s hands –in fact, Tobirama is likely more powerful than most Sharingan wielders as he killed Izuna, the second in command. Yet unlike Tobirama, neither Madara nor anyone of his kin performed undisclosed autopsies of deceased Senju members in order to study their biology nor wrote discriminatory and limiting policies based upon their nature. Madara even deflected after learning about his clan’s future inside Konoha’s borders.

[I’ll also brush over the fact that Tobirama’s words about how Madara is viewed negatively by other clan heads, while Hashirama isn’t, it’s never canonically shown –which only let us with his word, which we immediately took as factual.]

What I will comment on more deeply tho, is the notion of fear and its influence on racist mentalities and behaviors, as many believe that Tobirama’s fear of the Uchiha has nothing to do with his discriminatory mindset, as if “fear for what an ethnicity might do and therefore acting by repressing them in advance” it’s somehow different than racism, that implies a “racial [ethnic, as the term racism is far outdated as there’s only one race that exists with multiple ethnicities] prejudice that guides the individual to perform discriminatory and repressive acts.”

Extreme hatred is almost always based on fear. People may feel threatened by people they view as "different" or "foreign." They may fear losing power. To combat this fear, some people may seek social support from others with similar fears, perpetuating the cycle.

Source

Attitudes of extreme hatred are usually based on fear. They come from primitive survival mechanisms—our instinct to avoid danger—to fear anything that appears to be different, which leads to fear of the other.

“When one race of persons unconsciously feels fear in response to a different race group—fears that their own level of security, importance, or control is being threatened—they will develop these defensive thoughts and behaviors,” says psychologist and political advisor Dr. Reneé Carr. “They will create exaggerated and negative beliefs about the other race to justify their actions in [an] attempt to secure their own safety and survival.”

Source

Irrational fear, particularly of people of color, has shaped the American criminal justice system since the nation's colonial beginnings (...) Many of the propagators of this apartheid trafficked in racist fear-mongering to justify discriminatory treatment of African Americans, warning white America about the inherent criminality and violent propensities of black men.

Source

Fear and Racism are deeply intertwined, such as is Hate and Racism (there’s a reason why xenophobia, which is the fear of strangers or foreigners, it’s often used as a synonym for racism) –Tobirama claimed that the Uchiha were a “clan possessed by evil” (x), despite his studies only confirming that emotions were the primary force behind their chakra activating the Sharingan. At no point did he prove that negative emotions were the sole requirement for their kekkei genkai to activate nor was he able to prove that their feelings commanded their actions as he performed autopsies over (hopefully) dead bodies that clearly had no way to feel a single thing and act upon it; in fact, he wrote the book of shinobi’s rules that forbid people (even non-Uchiha) from showing emotions -yet Hiruzen, the student he trusted the most with his will, as he bestowed upon him the Hokage title, happily exploited such connections amongst his forces.

Tobirama’s need for control pushed him to create Edo-Tensei (a jutsu that came back to bite him in the ass, but regardless), he controlled powerful deceased shinobi at the expense of other people’s lives –you can say that Tobirama’s primarily driven force was fear yet it easily evolved into a clear necessity of absolute control over both living and dead people as to perform what he thought was righteous. In that sense, his characterization is marvelous, as he’s not above cruelty to perform what he claims is “the greater good”, in fact limiting his vicious tendencies is reducing both his depth as a character inside the story and the complexity and duality of the system he created under such perspective –neither he nor Hashirama were above ruthless acts to carry out their wishes.

To state that he wasn’t racist but rather, a person that acted upon his fear by creating and carrying out segregation policies based upon biology (re-read that phrase again and tell me how that isn’t racism, please) it’s limiting the existence of racism to mere “hatred” sentiments that rest upon the notion of one ethnicity’s superiority (morally, physically or both), which, pardon me, is absolutely nonsensical and paradoxical, as Tobirama was well aware of the Sharingan’s supremacy (in that case, the explanation of his racism would be solely based upon the anger awaken by sentiments of jealousy, yet canonically he never displayed such propensity as even having access to Uchiha corpses he never implanted himself a Sharingan).

[Many POC (particularly males) have to, to this day, fight against racist pre-conceptions that paint them as violent, savage, and blood-lusted individuals, created to install fear amongst the “pure” white citizens in order to push them to seek “government protection against the savages” which, in turn, happily and easily installed discriminatory policies against such communities.]

If you wish, you can say Tobirama’s fear was “rational” as he does have a background of conflict with the Uchiha, yet then you can’t blame the Uchiha for distrusting Tobirama and his successors’ policies as they also possess the same history –yet while Tobirama is, somehow, justified in his apprehension for the Uchiha, that courtesy isn’t extended to that family, who should have trusted blindly Konoha’s system, a bureaucracy which basis are built upon Tobirama’s ethnic prejudice.

And it's even by their own laid-out premises that these advocates fail to specify what exactly ARE Tobirama’s segregationist policies: They were targeted to a single clan and a single clan alone, what is that if not ethnic prejudice? They keep saying is not racism yet fail to convey what it is as if “fear” is enough response when speaking of an individual that built Konoha's entire political structure.

Furthermore, many claim that Tobirama couldn’t be racist as he allowed one Uchiha (Kagami) inside his cell, and both Itachi and Shisui were advocates for Konoha’s government yet:

This denial of the significance of race is a tool that allows the dominant racial group to legitimize the effects of racism under the guise of individual merit. Through this lens, people in positions of power can credit their successes to their own hard work while positioning the disadvantages oppressed racial groups face to personal rather than systemic failures.

The praising and/or awarding of one or few individuals inside a group that suffers from systematic prejudice is not proof of such a community not suffering from such segregation policies, rather, it’s a way to disguise such oppression while selling the idea that individual merit it’s both what matters, and the thing that’s stopping most members of such a family from rising inside Konoha’s political’s sphere. That way the blame is placed upon individual actions rather than the systematic flaws of Konoha’s policies (and the same happens with other characters, such as Naruto, Neji, Kakashi, and so on –as their traumatic experiences and subsequent reactions are blamed upon their individual perspective and not on the bureaucratic structure that is both the cause of the specific events that shaped them and the reason why they don’t have a better support system after such occurrences).

At the same time, Madara was the main motive of Tobirama’s “terror” for the Uchiha yet, after Madara’s death, he continued with his discriminatory policies towards those who shared the same ethnicity as the former leader, despite them willingly turning their back on him when he tried to make them abandon Konoha, pledging their loyalty to their village rather than to their strongest member and leader. Tobirama’s prejudice toward this specific ethnic group (as ethnicities in this manga are marked by the different Kekkei Genkai that exists), a consequence of his fear of a “new Madara rising” (whether it’s based on fear or hate doesn’t deny the fact that these notions were constructed with a racial prejudice still, making the system in itself and Tobirama specifically racist), converged in the systematic oppression that, later on, will push the Uchiha to attempt a coup and their subsequent massacre, a point that I touched upon a little more here.

In short, denying Tobirama acted upon his fear for the Uchiha is reading his character flatly, I agree, however, maintaining that fear is not one of the main bases for the development of racist mentalities and policies is to simplify both the notion itself and to diminish the gravity of the segregationist practices that result from this perspective.

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fangxin-guoshi · 7 months

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It's honestly so telling how hashirama interacts with Madara. During the war arc, Madara was sooo excited to see hashirama. The series is showing us through madara's fanboying that hashirama is incredibly important to him. He's constantly praising him when fighting the 5 kage and saying how hashirama is the only one who can defeat him. He's not even angry abt hashirama quite literally stabbing him in the back (and deeming him less important than the village). From this the audience can tell that Madara, more than anything (bc he literally paused what he was doing during the war to do this), WANTS to connect with hashirama. Hsrm is the only person that can make him forget Abt project tsuki no me. I cannot stress this enough. He really LIKES hsrm and wants to be close to him. It's just that fighting is the only way he knows how to express that.

How does hashirama respond? He ignored him. (Yes, practically, ignoring ten tails kinda would've been bad but shut up it's the PRINCIPLE of the matter here also I'm low-key delulu) Madara is trying his hardest to connect with hashirama but hashirama doesn't even notice.

When they were on the cliff side overlooking the construction of konoha, and later in the dingy Uchiha basement talking Abt the stone tablet, hashirama was trying to sorta talk some sense into Madara but he was going about it the wrong way.

The difference is their communication styles:

Hashirama is a talker, he wants to solve problems through diplomatic means without any bloodshed. He was deeply scarred and traumatized from the warring states era, so he wants to avoid any and all fighting, which is similar to Itachi, who witnessed the 3rd war as a child and became a pacifist (like Itachi tho, hashirama realizes some *ahem* .....sacrifices need to be made for the "greater good")

Madara believes that people's actions hold more weight than words. You can see it when he was a child, and he talked Abt how in order for the adults to take him and hsrm seriously, they have to become really strong. Later, after izuna is killed, hashirama's offers for a truce don't work. In that moment where Madara is carrying a very bloody izuna and hashirama proposes to stop fighting, he looks around him and sees the damage that the senju inflicted on the Uchiha. He really wants to believe in Hashirama at that moment, but a combo of izuna's influence and the fact that for Madara, actions are far more important than frivolous words, stops him. It's only when hashirama is Abt to stab himself that Madara agrees with the truce, that hsrm "showed him what's inside him."

That's why hashirama's words didn't stop Madara from leaving the village. It's why during the war arc hashirama couldn't get through to him through talking. It's why madara's world view only changed when black zetsu stabs him in the back. Actions speak louder than words, kiddos.

That's why their relationship failed. Hashirama didn't know how to really connect with Madara in a way that would actually get through to him. That's also why Naruto used a lethal combo of talk no jutsu and beating the shit out of Sasuke to literally knock some sense into him. And it worked.

Anyways look at the madabooty

Goddamn.

#naruto #madara uchiha #hashirama senju #hashimada #but make it kinda depressing #anime #anime and manga #naruto meta #meta #naruto founders #analysis #my new method for getting more people to look at my posts is putting low quality mada pics on them

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al-hekima-madara-blog · 5 months

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Madara Week Day 5 : found family

Originally analysis but there is a lot of my own interpretation so let's say Meta/Headcanon?

Madara sincerely tried to consider Konoha as his new home. He did it for the sake of his people but mostly because the warring state era, the death of every single member of his family left him emotionally exhausted.

Paradoxically what Madara feared the most in his youth was solitude. It is revealed during the monologue Obito did to Naruto just after the death of Neji and Madara noted that Obito sounds just like him back then.~

Hashirama's hand came like a relief from the horror of his situation. Everything had been destroyed anyway so yeah... maybe let's build something brand new from scratches. Yeah maybe he can trust the Senju clan after all and life would be easier. But the effect of this renewed friendship was unfortunately temporary, it was like applying a tiger balm in an open infected wound full of filths. The weight of guilt, the promise he made to Izuna on his death bed, the distrust from his clansmen he wanted so badly to save, it was still haunting him... And later the village revealed itself to be just an illusion of peace. People were living side by side but they still hated each other in silence and soon he could already prophetize his clan would be in great danger under the Senju's authority. But he never found a way to properly communicate his worries to the Uchihas that have now a warm roof over their head and a meal everyday. He couldn't neither communicate with Hashirama, and the main reason in my opinion was because they have changed too much during the last decade.

If you think about it seriously there is something unrealistic about Kishimoto's writing. Close you eyes for a minute, remember your best friend when you were 12 years old. and then you go your separate way and you see him again fifteen years later. What would you say to each other? Sure you still have dear memories together but...that's it.

The fundamental period of your life when you grow from being just a child to a grown adult many things happened that change you deeply:

1) puberty, often more spectacular in men. their physical appearance, their height, their voice, their hormones like testosterone that makes them more aggressive, open to sexual experience. Just from being 12 to 17 it's two different characters. Your parents who have to deal with your teenage angst can talk about it.

2) socially you change too. from 12 to 17 you're still cocooned by the educational system, for most of us we still depend economically from our parents. and from 18 to 26. Some goes to university, changes for a different cities, hang out with different friends, shape their values different from what their parents taught them. Others start to work straight away and the changes are even more brutal, now you confront the child that you were with the reality of building a career, earning a living, pay your own taxes, vote for your president ect... in a nutshell being a functional and independent member of your society.

3) emotionally you mature : it's obvious that from our 12 to 26, most of us went through different phase of first love, second love? maybe third? maybe just broken heart, maybe just a period of chaotic love affairs one after an other, maybe long abstinence. and probably after 26 some choose to finally settle down. other may already have children and being a parents which means you don't live just for yourself anymore. It's a complete shift of paradigm when someone else depend on you for survival. Your social circles change a lot too, slowly you befriend people based on your workplace, your hobbies, your political views rather than just sharing the same playground. Some of you can befriend people from lower or higher class that what you originally comes from, forcing you to understand new codes, new skills, new cultures, new languages. And when you almost reach your thirties you may experience for the first time the death of the elders from your community. A grandma, a grandpa who was there since you were born is now gone. The brevity of life suddenly slaps you in the face. Children thinks of themselves as eternal, not adult.

Birth, childhood, adulthood, love, deception, growth, rebirth, mourning, wisdom ect...Why do I say all of this? To describe the life of someone living in a relatively peaceful environment and born in a wealthy modern world which is all of us.

The fact that you are literate, you can read my words in english, you have an internet connection, a smartphone or a desktop, and the luxury to spend time on tumblr is a proof that you are relatively privileged comparing to the majority of people on Earth.

Now we are talking about Madara born into a traditional environment and during a war time when life was even shorter and fragile. Everything I've just described is basically done faster. At 15 you're already an adult, at 18 you have responsibilities as a breadwinner, at 26 you're a senior, head of clan, veteran of many war with all the trauma it drives, parents of many children, maybe widow, (not his case but for instance Tajima was). To put it into perceptive Madara at 26 lived the life of someone 40 years old in the modern world.

To pretend that Hashirama can cast out a a whole lifetime, and just hold to their childhood to build his dreamed village was indeed utterly naive. Between the moment he was elected hokage and the moment Madara shows him the Uchiha shrine, at least a whole year has passed, the relationship with Tobirama was still tense and the first hokage did nothing on purpose. Based on that, it's obvious that Hashirama never thought about discussing what Madara went throught the last 15 years of his life. He knew the child Madara but he completely brush off the adult Madara.

Yes they were close friend as children, but that were now two different persons with a separate background. Am I saying that their reconciliation was doomed from the start? No, they have healthy roots but it would have ask from both side to be more patient with each other and more attentive to what the other says rather than forcing a past childhood into the present.

@uchiha-event

#madaraweek2023 #madara week: day 5 #madara #madara uchiha #naruto #analysis-meta-headcanon #hashirama senju #uchiha madara #uchiha clan #naruto shippuden #founders era #uchiha

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olivegardenhunter · 3 days

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The sannin as normal childhood friends who have sleepovers and play games in the forest and bond over liking "gross" animals

anon thank you SO much for this mental image. you have made my very miserable assignment-filled day. I have many thoughts about the sannin and baby sannin being inseparable best friends who were just normal kids make up about 90% of them. here's some hc I have about that (sorry for the massively long post, I'm a yapper at heart)

yes absolutely. I like to think of the sannin as misfits who never fit in anywhere else except with each other. there's so many different reasons for this. we know they became genin at age 6. if this makes them the exception, rather than it being the normal practice for a village in tumultuous times, then this must have meant each of them were prodigies in their own rights in the academy (yes, even Jiraiya I'd say, though I'd suspect his was more a case of recognised potential rather than showing any obvious prodigal talent from the get-go). this is further reinforced by the fact the third hokage became their sensei. I doubt the hokage would've taken up any random group of genin as his students. if this is the case, can you imagine how difficult it must've been for them to make friends with others, their age or otherwise? not only would it be hard to relate to their other peers cause of the age and probably ability gap, but I'd imagine people would've found them downright intimidating! all this, along with all their individual personality which, if their 6 year old selves were anything like their 50 year old selves, would've meant the little baby sannin would not have been anyone's first choice of friends.

so I'd imagine each of them being a bit of loners in the academy. then they get put in a team together. recognise they each stick out like a sore thumb from everyone else, but have all of the above common ground. their personalities are difficult for each to get used to initially, but once they do, these three super super super quickly become absolutely inseperable. to call them family would've been a serious underestimate of their relationship imo.

anyway this is all a long winded way of saying YES they're absolutely those regular childhood best friends who have sleepovers and hang out and play games. I imagine that tsunade grew up with a massive family in a massive loving home. direct contrast to orochimaru who's an orphan and, I imagine jiraiya is an orphan too (hence no canon last name). therefore, the senju compound is typically the designated sleepover venue.

the senju compound has mito, and nawaki, and depending on what your hcs are, would have tsunades parents, and I'd think they'd still effectively live like royalties even if the first and second are dead. (hashirama and tobirama wouldn't be around anymore by the time the three became genin I think, because (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) hiruzen would've already been hokage when he took on the three of them as his students, meaning tobirama would have already passed)

jiraiya and orochimaru just being at awe at the way tsunade lives and just how lively her house is and tsunade is just happy to have kids her age at home with her that just gets her cause her parents always nag her about training and chores, mito still treats her like a baby even though she's already a Shinobi that can take care of herself damn it!, and nawaki is so young he's so boring and sometimes gets annoying. so she always convinces her fellow teammates to come over to her house to practice and train, to babysit nawaki with her, to be the test dummy for try out this new jutsu or technique she's learning, and anything else that she insists she cannot do alone and needs them to be there with her

until suddenly it's already dark and oh her teammates can't possibly walk home all alone at this hour and besides my mum's making dinner and it's your favourite jiraiya and she'd scold me if I didn't offer some to you guys and orochimaru, mito found some sort of old scroll that uncle tobirama wrote about a new jutsu that she wants your thoughts on and besides, we have to meet sensei soooo early tomorrow for our mission and the training ground is closer from my house anyway, and you guys are just trying to get out of the bet we made and that's cheating y'know! and and and suddenly the senju compound just so happen to always have a few sets extra clothes and pyjamas that just so happened to be orochimaru and jiraiya's size and hey oro, raiya, look! it's got toads and snakes! and it matches mine! and the adults always just so happen to have two extra plates set at the table during meals, and the house just so happens to always be stocked up with both her teammate's favourite snacks, and orochimaru and jiraiya can suddenly enter the senju compound at any time of the day, with or without tsunade, and are greeted joyfully by the household's residents who had started nagging at them about training and chores and picking up after themselves, and mito is treating them like babies even though they're fully trained shinobis! and nawaki is being sooo annoying today and damn it, why isn't tsunade home yet? we agreed to train at 3!

(the three of them never quite notice that jiraiya or orochimaru's unannounced visits to the senju compound never trigger any of the seals that are activated by the presence of non-senju, non-family chakra in the compound. they never quite notice that the anbu guards at the front never give jiraiya and orochimaru any of the trouble or scrutiny that any visitors or guests to the senju compound are always subjected to, and the guards merely let them in with a slight bow of their heads, the same way they would to tsunade, or mito, or her parents.)

the only other times the sleepover isn't at tsunade's place is when there's a thunderstorm and orochimaru insists he needs to spend the night at his apartment because he tells them that last time the storm was this bad, lightning had struck a branch that smashed through his apartment that, if he wasn't already there and was even a little slower, would have destroyed the very few things his parents had left him that he so carefully keeps in a chest and he cannot ever take the risk that that would ever happen again he lost his power and his food went bad in his fridge, and c'mon tsu, you know oro not-so-secretly has a fear of thunder! don't you remember what happened last time at that mission where we were camping? we can't possibly let him spend the night alone at his house!

(later on when they're older, they'll come to find that jiraiya's new jonin apartment will become the new designated sleepover venue as jiraiya begins bringing back questionable sake from his missions that they were definitely too young to be having that he could not have possibly obtained that legally, and mito started banning them from playing card games at the senju compound when she noticed her granddaughter's tendency to lose her entire pay packet in a single game was becoming a bit too familiar to her... like a certain husband of hers' gambling habits that she had tried so hard to make sure wouldn't get passed on to the grandchild who the man had unwittingly taught said card games to at the age of 4. jiraiya started to call his apartment the degenerates' club then, much to the other two's dismay. though they couldn't quite protest when he correctly pointed out they were absolutely behaving like degenerates, even if princess tsunade and the leaf's once-in-a-generation prodigy felt like they were above those sort of disreputable behaviour.)

jiraiya and orochimaru fight tooth and nail that the massive forest that makes up the backyard of the compound, created by the shodaime himself of course, is the only reason they choose to hang out with tsunade at the senju compound, because princess tsunade (dammit oro stop calling me that!), the shodaime hokage seemed to have left so many fascinating things in this forest, there's so many secrets to discover. I don't think I've seen any of these species anywhere else in Konoha. I believe the secrets to some of his jutsu or techniques lie in this forest... oro you're such a nerd. and besides, Princess, the snakes here really seem to like oro for some reason and I think the toads are about to make me their king, I'm sure of it! and also, me and oro are the only people who don't find the fact you use the slime from those slugs in your potions or whatever absolutely disgusting, so we're the only friends you have to play in this gigantic forest with in the first place (it's not potions, it's a new medicinal gel I'm creating! and can you two just shut up? hide and seek is supposed to be a SILENT game and right now, you both really suck at it! I can literally locate you without even moving!) ...hey tsu, is mito-sama going to make those cookies she made last time again? she told me yesterday she would cause hiruzen-sensei told her we did a good job on our last mission.

the three of them knew everyone in Konoha had started calling them the 'Hokage's brats' behind their backs. but none of them realised that, particularly among the elders, this didn't seem to just be in reference to their sensei... there were other, more hushed whispers going around that if they had tried to listen to, would've sounded something like the adopted senjus... or lord first and second's legacies...

(these rumours may or may not have started when people started noticing tsunade's parents went from talking about their two children they adored, to their three rascals plus sweet little nawaki. or when mito kept comparing jiraiya's antics and personality to hashirama or orochimaru's brooding nature and hunger for knowledge was like tobirama's, or how tsunade's own hot temper and tenacity but also mischief was like her own's and the many Uzumakis that came before her, and that all three of them together balanced each other the way she, hashirama, and tobirama had. or when hiruzen constantly raves about his students and how much he sees his senseis in each of them and how the will of fire burns so brightly in them that he knew lord first and second would be extremely proud to see. in the end, though tsunade may have been the only one who shared a name with the senju founders, everybody couldn't help but see hashirama and tobirama and everything they had been and everything they had stood for in all three of the legendary sannin.)

#why yes i AM supposed to be doing my assignment right now #thank you anon for the ask and my apologies for taking your idea and absolutely RUNNING with it to the hills #as you can see i have a lot of thoughts when it comes to the baby sannin #with everything we know about the senjus (so not much) and all their stuff about the will of fire and the village being their family #there is absolutely NO WAY that they see tsunade's beloved teammates that she wont shut up about and see that theyre both orphans #that are in need of a little bit of love and family #and not immediately decided to adopt the two of them whether they like it or not #i absolutely believe that soon after they became a team the senjus started considering jiraiya and orochimaru as family #without even a shred of doubt in their mind #for as far it matters to them oro and jiraiya were one of them and were family no matter what #cause thats the kind of teachings that hashirama would've passed down #and cmon orochimaru had to learn tobiramas techniques somehow #i doubt these techniques were public knowledge #and jiraiyas proximity to the senjus could also be how minato learnt tobiramas technique too #but these hc just make what happened after the second war with the three of them so much more tragic #anyway anon i take your childhood friends sannin idea and raise it with inseperable unbreakable found family bond sannin #they mean everything to me #sannin #nart #meta #hc #tsunade #jiraiya #orochimaru #senju clan #mito #the legendary sannin #tsunade senju #naruto #naruto meta

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woodblxssomcrowned · 4 months

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Hear me out as I ramble. Please leave room for a year or two off here and there. Numbers hard and I'm working with what i got.

Like I know people frequently point to Hashirama's godly genes and regenerative abilities to justify him being older but still looking you but like...we did see him as a kid? With Madara, who didn't look much older or younger than him. And he had brothers who did not look more than a handful of years younger than him either.

Considering that the life expectancy was around 30 during the WS era, to me it doesn't seem outlandish at all that he could have married and become a father when he was still in his late teens, like 18 or 19, years before the founding of the village. Uchiha Kagami. According to the databooks he was 25 at the time of his death. If we assume he was the same age as Danzou, this would mean he's 18 years older than Tsunade. It would also mean he died seven years after Tsunade's birth.

In that time he would have had at least one kid (future parent of Shisui), Hashirama would have died, the 1st SWW would start and Tobirama would die along with some other shit.

With this in mind, I can only assume assume the parent of Tsunade, we'll call them Child A (on this blog that child is Danma), was at least 18 when she was born, making them likely the same age or older than Hiruzen and his crew.

Now we can go back further!

To Uchiha Izuna!

He died at the age of 25 too. Now, we don't know how much older than Izuna Madara is but I personally pin both Izuna and Tobirama as being no more than two or three years younger than Madara and Hashirama.

For this rant we'll say that they are two years younger, and all four of them are parallels i.e. Madara and Hashirama are the same age, and Izuna and Tobirama is the same age.

This would make Hashirama and Madara 27 when Izuna died.

So if Hashirama had Child A when he was 19, said child would be 8 years old when Izuna died. And ten years later Tsunade would be born, and Hashirama would have been 37 at the time.

We also know that he did live to interact and leave memories and impressios on Tsunade, and in his memory of her she looks maybe 4 or 5 at most.

Let's say he dies when Tsunade is 5. Meaning he was 42 when he died.

Now, remember Kagami?

He was most likely 18 years older than Tsunade, and died at 25. If Hashirama died when Tsunade was five, Kagami would have been 23. We also know that Kagami died after Tobirama.

So in the two years between Kagami being 23 and 25, so much shit would have gone down. It would also mean he probably died not very long after Tobirama.

Speaking of Tobirama. He was two years younger than Hashirama, so was 40 when his older brother died at 42.

Since he died before Kagami, he would have died at about the age of 42 as well.

Another mention!

We don't know how long the period of time is between Izuna's death and Madara's 'death' and the creation of TVATE.

But concidering the time for the village to be established, Madara falling out of favor with his clan, his interactions with young Ounoki, a few years is at least safe to assume.

However.

Although this only applies to the anime, if we look at SP reference sheets that features the young Hiruzen crew, their heights would suggest they are somewhere around 11 years old around the time of Madara deflecting. It does fit fine. If they were about 8 when the village was founded, and the TVATE battle happened when they were 11, that would leave 3 years.

It's not ot much, if you consider how rome wasn't built in a day (I overall like to think it was at least five years, if not more. Like, come on.), but its something, and for the sake of this post we'll say it was three.

We can also make note that Kakuzu died at 91 in the earlier half of shippuden, making him 19 years older than Hiruzen and his crew.

So he was most likely just about the same age as Hashirama and Madara.

Thanks to these numbers we can try to decipher how long Madara sat in his cave!

If Madara was the same age as Hashirama and Kakuzu, and we guesstemate that he spent three years in the village before battling and being 'killed' by Hashirama, he would have been 30 at the time of his 'death'.

That gives us roughly 61 years between the TVATE battle and Kakuzu's death. (which also solidifies Hiruzen and Co being about 11 at the time as Danzou, Homura and Utatane are 72-73 years old in Shippuden)

We also know that Obito was 31 at the time of his death by the end of shippuden, so was likely about 29-30 by the beginning.

I am not entirely sure how much time spent between the boulder incident and Madara pulling the plug on himself.

However.

Kakashi was 29 at the beginning of shippuden, 62 years younger than Kakuzu.

Kakashi is 13 years older than Naruto, meaning he was 13 when Obito released the Kyubi and Kushina and Minato died at the day of Naruto's birth.

According to the databooks, Obito became chunin at 11 years old.

So likely somewhere between 12 and 13 everything from boulder to Madara's death would have happened.

Let's say Obito was 13 when Madara died.

That makes Madara 75 years old at the time of his death if we still assume he was just about the same age as Kakuzu, after having spent 45 years in his cave.

There's an infuriating detail tho. And his name is Ounoki, the third tsuchikage.

He was 79 when he appeared in shippuden making him about 13 years younger than Madara.

This would mean that when the WS era ended following Izuna's death, Ounoki would have been 14 years old, and 17 years old when TVATE battle happened.

Onoki offers us two flashbacks of his younger years:

- Him looking after an artefact, and having a philosophical conversation with his grandfather Ishikawa about the strength of will within the shinobi of Iwagakure. Ishikawa is very clearly Tsuchikage at this time as he is wearing the iconic kage getup. Ounoki looks roughly 12 or so years old.

The first tuchikage also looks older here than he does when he appears in the 1st kage summit..

- Him with Mu, the future second Tsuchikage, facing Madara. They wear their respective village's headbands, and Madara speaks in a way that heavily implies he's still working in favor of Konoha, even if it seems his relationship with Hashirama is turning quite sour at that time.

Ounoki looks young, but I would not say younger than 17 or 18.

This would mean this occured before Hashirama became hokage and possibly even before the kage system was created alltogether?

The 1st kage summit isn't implied to have taken place until after Madara leaving.

These events does not match up at all.

I think the event with Madara fits best into the most plausible timeline, but barely. The first I can't find any plausible way to fit. I can only assume that his old-man brain isn't what it used to be and he's remembering things weirdly. It's the only explanation.

Other notes:

Ginkaku and Kinkaku attempted to capture Kurama after Kumogakure was founded, but before Madara set it lose on Konoha and Mito ended up sealing it away. They do look like adults in that flashback, and we know they died at the age of 44. With that info I'd guess they may also have also been roughly the same age as Hashirama and Madara. This would mean they'd be near 30 when they became psuedo-jinchurki by munching Kurama-guts for two weeks, and would have died around the same time as Tobirama, meaning sometime shortly before, during or after the 1st SWW. Prior to the 1st SWW they would have also attempted a coup and very nearly killed both the Nidaime Raikage and Nidaime Hokage.

There's no clues as to how old Mito was when she died, but even though Kishimoto probably wants us to admire her for living so hecken long and for it to be a testament to the Uzumaki longevity, I really don't think she was that old when she died. Kushina died at the age of 24, and judging by her appearance I'd guss she was about 12 or so when she took over as jinchuriki. Kakashi and Obito would have been 1 year olds at this time. Remember earlier when we mentioned how Obito was 13 when Kushina and Minato died, and Madara had likely kicked it some time within the earlier year, at the age of 75. So, if we assume Mito was roughly the same age as Hashirama, then she would have been 63 years old when she died. Sure, for someone born in the WS era it's thirty years beyond the general life-expectancy, but overall it's not very impressive considering that Ounoki, Hiruzuen and his crew lived to their 70's and beyond and remained very capable shinobi (Kakuzu doesn't count because without his kinjutsu he'd probably be long since dead, even Madara only made it so long thanks to his Hashirama-life support). I am going to HC that maybe being jinchuriki took its toll on her, making age catch up to her faster than one would have expected. Either that she was notably older than Hashirama.

We don't know that Hikaku died at the age of 25, although that is the only age we have to associate to him, but hell, we don't even know if he did live during the founders era. We only know for sure that he did live during the warring states era, even if the fandom (me included) generally put him in with the other founders. His databook entry says: "M 25 An Uchiha clan shinobi. Despite his youth he is the most talented in his clan and is very adept at being a leader. " And he's never presented in any proximity to any known founders characters , so it's never really mentioned in any sure capacity that he did live during the founders era, so finding a place for him in the timeline is hard.

Touka we don't know if she died at the age of 27, or if she was just 27 when she's very briefly shown. But she is shown looking fairly young next to Hashirama, and even her databook entry states that she did work closely with and was trusted by Hashirama, so she without a doubt did live at least during the end of the WS era, and though we only have a figure that appears to be her from behind to go off, she likely did live to see the end of it.

#;;ooc #;;inspiration #;;reference #;;Senju #senju clan #naruto meta #senju hashirama #mito uzumaki #madara uchiha #uchiha clan #naruto timeline #founders era #naruto founders era #naruto warring states

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jaguarys · 5 months

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I think it's intrinsic to my reading of the Mito-Hashirama-Madara... situationship that Mito never really loved Hashirama. She did, however, want to. It would have been easier for her, in some ways, if she had, if harder in others.

She was alone, in another country that wasn't her own, knowing that she would never been able to return home. She had no one but her Bijū, and in the end, she didn't have her husband, either. She loved what Hashirama represented for her, and she loved him as much as she could, but she did not love him.

He couldn't be what she needed, and she couldn't be what he needed, and in that way they were connected in that they weren't.

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bansenshukai · 25 days

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While perusing the naruto timeline I discovered that the Academy was formed ~30 years after Konoha was founded. The Chunin exams, being a part of the formalized shinobi education system, were formed after the Academy as well.

And at the time of the Academy's Founding, Hiruzen and the rest of his generation (Danzo, Biwako, Koharu, Homura) are approximately age 20~21 . They didn't grow up with the Academy or the Chunin Exams! They became, presumably, fully fledged shinobi, purely through individual mentorship and field experience.

So: no Academy also means no age limit.

This had me start thinking about the kind of childhood Hiruzen led, and what he would have considered normal. People love to criticize his decision to neglect Naruto (and rightfully so), but it's also clear that Hiruzen does regard Naruto with affection. It's entirely possible he saw Naruto's childhood as sheltered compared to what he experienced growing up without the safeguards of a formalized shinobi education.

#hiruzen #.txt #idk... its just so interesting #a continual theme in naruto is how each new generation tries to fix the mistakes of the past #but having grown up steeped in the old ways #can only make incremental improvements #even hashirama can't concieve of a world without shinobi #he thinks people will continue to die; he's merely against people dying *too* young #naruto meta

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evilkitten3 · 2 months

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But listen, if Izuna had said yes to Hashirama's help after he was injured and he still died, would Madara rampage like in canon? Would he still chase the infinite tsukyomi?

the thing is, hashirama never offered to help izuna. i'm actually not sure he could have - the hiraishingiri pretty much cut through him like butter. moreover, while madara himself lauds hashirama's medical prowess, we actually know very little about his capabilities with medical ninjutsu. he could heal wounds without any hand seals, that's mostly all we know.

here are hashirama's words immediately after izuna is injured:

「マダラ・・・お前はオレには勝てない・・・もう・・・終わりにしよう・・・忍最強のうちはと千手が組めば・・・国も我々と見合う他の忍一族を見つけられなくなる・・・いずれ争いも沈静化していく」

"madara... you can't beat me... let's end it already. if the strongest shinobi, the uchiha and the senju, form an alliance... the country won't be able to find another shinobi clan able to counterbalance us... the conflict will eventually calm down"

he doesn't acknowledge izuna at all. whether he intended an offer of medical aid to be implied or not, it's never addressed. a bunch of people have claimed that this makes hashirama a jerk, and while i definitely get that viewpoint, i do think offering to help izuna without being absolutely certain he was capable of doing so would've been a terrible move, politically speaking. madara might have known that hashirama isn't the sort of man who would do something like this, but the rest of the uchiha clan would have no reason not to assume that hashirama didn't just take advantage of madara's kindness/trust/desperation/whatever to ensure that izuna died while potentially leaving room for madara to feel indebted to him for trying in spite of all the reasons he had not to bother.

hell, the clan might even come to the conclusion that madara intended for izuna to die so he could get his eyes, given what ended up happening in canon, so his fallout with them might actually happen even faster (and without the uchiha ever joining konoha at all, although without madara around to counter hashirama, i have no idea if/how the uchiha would manage against the senju from there)

all that aside, if hashirama had indeed offered help and izuna had agreed to take the risk and died anyway and the uchiha clan trusted that that was what had actually happened, i think pretty much everything else would've proceeded according to canon.

there's definitely plenty of fun possibilities to play around with concerning madara's path in life, but tbh i personally believe that without a massive deviation from canon, he would've eventually become who he became. hashirama definitely fucked up here and there, but i honestly don't think there was anything he could've personally done alone that would've changed madara's fate short of killing him back when they were kids, which he was never going to do. he was always doomed.

#naruto #naruto shippuden #uchiha madara #senju hashirama #uchiha izuna #meta #also madara's trust issues would probably have gotten even weirder if that had happened lol #don't get me wrong i love what if madara didn't become a villain aus as much as anybody #but i've never seen one that could have plausibly taken place in the canon universe #even the very best ones #often the biggest difference is black zetsu suddenly deciding to show up and act like a stupid cartoon villain lol #like i've seen maybe one fic where it didn't do that and even then its influence on madara was much more direct than in canon #black zetsu was really fucking good at its job y'all. and it found/helped create the perfect guy for its plan #oh yeah one last thing: i want the naruto fandom to consider the implications of healing izuna against his will #like i know it's fiction ok i get that. and i know in this particular idea izuna agrees and i know the concept seems silly at first #but guys medical ethics is really REALLY important

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internal-ethics · 8 months

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so in the orochimaru attacks konoha chapters when hiruzen was fighting hashirama and tobirama, in his flashback these two anbu bodyguards of his look .... familiar

familiar long and silver hair respectively

vaguely familiar patterns on masks

they are in the manga

and were the only ones beside 3rd hokage to listen to all of orochimaru's bullshit about fobidden jutsus for eternal life and morals and all that jazz that was so much more convenient for members of a certain near extinct clan only

!!!

maybe it's just me but they all sound like they know each other and also know the illegal jutsus and experiments COULD and HAS been used for...better purpose than that

VERY familiar vibes from the way these two react and talk too lol

they call him -sama but at this point orochimaru was like in his 20s so they cant be older than him

and hashirama said tsunade was his first grandkid and tobirama created the anbu

could they be the other grandchildren

its interesting that this is hiruzen's guards' vibe in a flashback while hiruzen was fighting those two in the present

hm food for thots

#naruto #senju hashirama #senju tobirama #senju clan #naruto rewatch #meta #not gonna tag the others

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obitoslover · 13 days

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Thinking. Thinking about how Hashirama is always shown using his clan's clothing in (almost) every non-fight flashback

Even at the first Kage Summit is shown him using them

Tobirama too, btw, which makes me think 2 things:

1. Iirc it's the second time we see him using another clothing (as well as adult Hashirama

maybe they used these for training? Who knows)

2. This kimono probably can be used more for diplomatic occasions? I mean, it can make sense; just bc the Uchiha clan uses theirs more commonly it doesn't mean the Senju would do the same...

Even if it's used only in these type of situation or not, Hashirama using it almost all the time (unlike Tobirama, for example, who is shown using the clothing shinoni wear below the armor

here's an example) gives me the impression/feeling he's above the fighting, he doesn't need to be prepared for an attack 24/7

Or maybe I'm just reading too much into things and Kishimoto only wanted to keep the kimono in old times to symbolize how traditional things used to be in comparison to the og Naruto's folks

@narutobrainrotstuff @anubisthe1 @r--kt @evilkitten3 @fire-eyed-raven

#naruto meta #(?)#senju clan #hashirama #tobirama #naruto manga

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stardustcoma · 1 year

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I'm so in love with my boy mads, jesus 😩

#madara #madara uchiha #handsome and intimidating #love him #narutop99 #uchiha clan #uchiha madara #naruto #izuna uchiha #hashirama #naruto meta

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fangxin-guoshi · 8 months

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Kinda delusional hot take: Madara would've been fine with hashirama being hokage if not for the external factors that played into hashirama being selected.

#bc tobirama was the one who proposed a popular vote #but the popular vote was conviently only used to select the first holage #the rest were chosen by the village elders or the previous hokage #not saying tobirama was wrong for the popular vote suggestion but he was taking advantage of the village population's biases against Madara #including the uchiha who were on the verge of kicking madara out of the clan #madara probably knew this #since he was listening in on tobs gossiping abt him #madara picked up on the bias against the uchiha bc of tobirama's *ahem* meddling #and thats the whole reason he was going to leave the village #its not abt hashirama becoming hokage its abt the uchiha's POSITION in this situation that madara was worried abt #and its not tobirama or hashiramas fault that it went down like this either #that was just the circumstances #and of course madara isnt completely blameless #hes just a bit evil but hey thats what makes him hot and sexy #anime #anime and manga #naruto #meta #naruto meta #naruto founders #hashirama senju #tobirama senju #madara uchiha

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al-hekima-madara-blog · 1 year

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Hashirama Senju birth chart (Headcanon)

The warm fire of konoha & his ashes

Considering that Hashirama is Madara's alter ego, there will be a lot of reference to my previous birth chart on Madara. If you haven't read it yet it's here. And also now that I know you have read Madara's one, I won't explain deeper like last time each sign I consider you clever enough to do your own research on google to further your knowledges

☉ Sun : Ego – Branding to the world

♑ Libra

Broadly what libra sun wants to reach is harmony. In their perfect worldview everyone is able to communicate and understand each other feeling by the power of love and blabla jutsu. And there is a the real world where it's doesn't work and that's why you need a capricorn friend (Madara) to keep you realistic.

Naruto, Hashirama are both libra and it's not a coincidence. Thanks to @lunyzare 's ask I've already talk in detail about his sun in Libra here . Actually the whole Naruto's serie is a libra anthem inside a scorpionic world. Shinobis are after all shadow warrior using occult power, living in a hidden village with a hokage at his head (shadow of the fire. It's a world between secret society and spying activities Masashi Kishimoto is himself a scorpio with strong libra energy. (Maybe it will be a good idea to do the author birth chart one day. Let me know in the comments if you would like to🤔)

As the MC's ancestor, Hashirama represents this search for an ideal of all people coming together to reach peace. But what people misunderstood is that Hashirama, as all air signs, is appealed by the concept of peace before understanding the reality of building peace. It took him to kill his best friend to realise the consequences of his decisions and the price of his dear village. It's as if before that, he stayed completely careless of all the issues around him.

Often when I think about his famous quote, it reminds me the french revolution. They dreamed to realise equality, freedom and the Human's right where all humans are equals... But before reaching this noble goals, the previous regime had to be slay by the guillotine who had been invented for this purpose of beheading quickly as many nobles as possible. This period is called The Terror in history. And if you wonders, yes France is a Libra country!

In the same fashion, the darkness times took over Konoha in the name of peace. Some people from the village preferably Uchiha needs to be sacrifice to realise Hashirama's dream. There lies the dark side of Libra. They are kings and queens of gaslighting. They are also very good at soft speeches, doublespeak, and politically correctness. By refusing to acknowledge any opinions contradicting their ideal of justice and harmony, it ends up creating a bloodshed to protect it.

Ascendant/Rising Sign : Social personality – Physical Body

♑Sagittarius

For the ascendant I thought about what people see of Hashirama the first time they met him mostly Suigetsu who's the most talkative :

God of Shinobi ( but it's mostly his legacy post mortem)

Bubbly

Full of enthusiasm

Goofy

Loud

Broad figure

someone capable of brief but memorable fit of anger

I don't know you, but when I read my list I see a sagittarius' description. Traditionally to differentiate each fire sign, I like to think of Aries as firecracker , Leo is a pyre , Sagittarius is the wildfire. Nobody knows where it starts but goes rapidly in a rampage and disappeared as mysteriously as it came. Sagittarius got this reputation of being bigger than life, authentic and sometimes clumsy, but loving party, free spirit, loving foreign people, and foreign land, foreign wisdom. Jupiter is the planet associate with Sagittarius. Zeus God of the Gods in greek mythology, the bridge is easy to do with our God of shinobi.

With this ascendant couple with Libra who is already a social sign, I can see why Hashirama's election was not debatable. He was naturally the popular guy while Madara in my description is a very stern double Capricorn who's intimidating unless you know him very well.

☾Moon : Emotion – Comfort zone

♋Pisces

One quality of Hashirama is that he can read people. He has this real emotional smartness. It doesn't mean that he can effectively communicate his feeling (that's mercure's business and that's Naruto legendary best quality) but you can't really lie to him. He's the only person who saw behind everyone facade. He saw behind the fortress of blunt who is Madara and said that he was a deeply sensitive person while everybody think he's the devil (ironically Madara will become exactly what people expect of him in the end). He also discovered first Madara's weakness and used it in his advantage years later.

He read also Sasuke and was the only one of the five kages who believed that answering Sasuke's questions was in the long-term more efficient than rushing into the battlefield.

He read Oroshimaru's mind. Which is the rare moment where our devilish snake didn't feel confident at all.

♂ Mars : Action - Desire

♌ Taurus

In the Narutoverse, fighting's style is the easiest way to guess their mars.

In the same way that Mars in leo was obvious for Madara. Mars in Taurus came to me without a second thought. If Madara as a warrior is the epitome of fire, you need a superior energy capable of blocking such powerful storm. And in all zodiac no one has more resistance than Taurus. Sure the impetuous mars planet is not at its fullest potential in this slow and venusian sign. But what it losts in speed, it gains in determination. A mars taurus is like a unbreakable wall. It's built to resist and when it starts moving at his own pace, nothing can stop it.

Mokuton as his signature is a mix of water and earth element, both consider as feminine traditionally. And in feminine concept there is the idea of being the receiver and the creator. If you study most of Hashirama's fight you can see that he uses mostly defensive jutsu, while Madara has a preference for offensive one. There is the wood dragon technique who absorbs Kyuubi's chakra, Myojinmon or God’s Gate who literally stop an enemi with Tori gate falling from the sky (again it contains someone else's energy rather than attacking). In the creative side : Kajukai Korin makes him grow a lively forest. Shin Susenju : is his most famous offensive jutsu. He can create a giant Buddha statue with a thousand hands. And it took him time to knead his chakra and passing into senjutsu mode but when it's done, nothing can stop him.

And cherry on the top : Leo and Taurus are both fix sign (stubborn and difficult to change) and in synastry Madara's mars in Leo will square Hashirama's mars in Taurus. A square is usually considered as an intense tension. And those two bananas are notorious for creating natural disasters and climate change every time they met on a battlefield.

♃ Jupiter : Infinite Expansion – House of wisdom

♌ Leo

Remember in the Madara birth chart I had both mars and jupiter conjunct in Leo. Hashirama being from the same generation it's most likely that Jupiter is in the same sign (it took about a year for jupiter to move from sign, while mars stay few months).

The duo Mars/Jupiter for Madara enhances the martial and fierce aspect of Leo. A Leo much more authoritarian and narcissistic. But Hashirama has got only Jupiter in Leo that would glorify the brightest side of Leo : generosity, bravery, optimism, luck, having children (his pride). In a way, it makes Hashirama even more popular and lovable. During the warring state era, Hashirama makes most of his dream comes true in his life time. Compared to his friend he got it all : He build his village, was acknowledged and respected by all, he kept his little brother alive, married a powerful kunoichi, controlled through his wife the most powerful of the nine bijuu, seems to have had a family life with his child/children and grandchildren (he spends time with Tsunade), he established a peace (it seems that the first shinobi war start after his death?), he elaborated and transmitted his will of fire, and formed a new generation who will continue his legacy after him. So he thought at his death that peace will prevailed after him and he had accomplished his goal.

☿ Mercure : Intellect – Communication

♑ Scorpio

When mercury is in scorpio, the mental goes more deeper. The intuition is precise like a laser. It can sometimes brought to the surface the darkest part of human's psychis.

Some would say that apart this moment above, Most of the time Hashirama isn't that dark. However, I believe in the same way that on a superficial level Madara is an intimidating character with a secret sensitive nature. Hashirama is for people that solar charismatic guy but underneath that facade, he is, just like all shinobis of his time... a warlord. He didn't reach the top level of his clan by just being cute and smiling. In the warring state era to prove you can lead, you need to show some extreme cold mind. And it's only Madara who's able to push Hashirama to "reveal his guts", to show his authentic self. First when Hashirama was ready to die to prove his good-will and during the valley of the End when he answered the question Madara asked few years ago in the Uchiha's shrine : If he had to chose between his brother/ friend or the village, he will sacrifice everyone for his village.

♀ Venus : Attraction – Seduction

♒Libra

What are Hashirama's desires? First of course is building his village with every clans cooperation. It still fit the Libra's ideal of perfect cooperation.

And what is the object of his desire ? Mito Uzumaki. Based on what she confessed to Kushina in her old days, she seems to have been loved by her husband and this love makes bearable her duty of jinshuuriki.

Mito was in her youth really beautiful, classically beautiful. She looks like a princess from older time. Knowing that Mito is also a taurus. It's an other sign where Venus (planet of love and beauty) is at its peak just like in Libra. I believe Hashirama's attraction to his wife was real.

♄ Saturn : Restriction – Time - Enlightenment

♐Sagittarius

Saturn in Sagittarius means also Saturn is close to his ascendant.

Naruto in Boruto era doesn't actually like that day to day office job as hokage. He does it because it's his duty. I headcanon that it was exactly the same for Hashirama, he's too much of a dreamer, a social butterfly to just seat in an office and sign papers. Actually he first offered the job to Madara for a good reason : yes it will give him a new goal in life to protect the village but let's be honest : Capricorn thrives in responsibility and boring procedures. Yes they want to be an office manager and boss people around all day. They love being in charge and control a situation. If that wasn't for his popularity issue, Madara was really overqualified for the job as hokage. He's just like Tobirama, efficient, rational and over-organised. Imagine if he had put the same energy he put in the infinite tsukuyomi into Konoha? They will be the united state of five nation reaching Naruto Era. That's what you need to administrate and organise a village. But well the people wanted the pretty Hashirama the people got Hashirama… He did it because that's what is expected from him. It's what Saturn does in your life, restricting you to challenge you. Remember in Madara's chart I use the image of the tamed fire : The Judge and the stern spiritual leader. The severe aspect of Saturn in Sagittarius (house 12) is more pronounced in Madara because of his heavy capricorn chart. In Hashirama who is most Air and Fire, Saturn in Sagittarius in his first house will just restrict his freedom, his carefree attitude. He might have felt sometimes depressed and weight down by his responsibilities and the feeling he can't be authentically himself, people expect from him to embody the head of clan, the leader of Konoha, the "God of the Shinobi".

And there is no picture in the Manga where Hashirama is confined his office. He's often outside, on top of the cliff observing his village alone or with Madara. In the fillers you also see him walking around the village, talking with people. And also we know he gambles. Did he starts this bad habit to escape his office duty just like Tsunade did?

#Hashirama #Hashirama Senju #Hashirama headcanon #Hashirama birth chart #Madara #Madara Uchiha #birth chart #naruto meta #meta #astrology #fictional birth chart #naruto analysis #character analysis #astrology placements #astronomy #Al Hekima's analysis

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