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vivacissimx · 3 months

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The puzzle piece about Rhaegar that is really interesting but unfortunately often overlooked is that he was relieved when he realized he was not TPTWP. Yes, relieved. Conflicted too which I will get into. And I believe it is obvious that when Rhaegar first read about Aegon's prophecy, he was not enthused— It seems I must be a warrior is trotted out to talk about Rhaegar's gender expression, his disconnect with capital m Masculinity that is purposely contrasted to Robert Baratheon reveling in it (indeed only making sense within the context of violence, battle, war) but there is more to the compulsion involved in the words It seems and I must than just It seems I must become an archetype. Socially becoming a fighter was already expected of him but he was not, presumably, in compliance with this expectation. The prophecy motivated him in a different way than you will be socially rewarded for acting as a man does.

Which brings me to another point i.e. how Rhaegar perceived himself prior to reading what he read; his connection to the tragedy of his birth and the grief, the resentment, the awkward dynamics between members of his family. "Oh he was a child" yes but we're told that Rhaegar did not act like, think like, or even particularly get along with others his age. So it's safe to say he was aware of Summerhall and felt it's shadow surrounding him from a young age. And Aegon's prophecy, combined with the Ghost of High Heart's prophecy, the events of Summerhall, put this weight on his shoulders completely into context. It was not that Rhaegar desired to be TPTWP because he took to it with determination but no particular joy. Every indicator just seemed to demand he give himself over to fulfilling this role. TPTWP was coming from Aerys and Rhaella's line? Well, he was their only child. Consult Maester Aemon on the matter? Yeah kid it's you. Ancient scrolls? Dusty, but they agree. Dead ancestors? Oh wait, they died so YOU could live. Woah.

This understanding basically necessitates us looking to ASOS Daenerys who also has some knowledge of TPTWP prophecy, and thanks to the Rhaegar-Daenerys pipeline, we can imagine that Rhaegar had similar thoughts to Daenerys, such as when she asks herself: The dragon has three heads. There are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can find them. I will not be alone then. We will be three against the world, like Aegon and his sisters. Who are Rhaegar's fellow two heads? Daenerys wonders at this, telling Jorah that her brothers are dead. Well Rhaegar's brothers die too, right in front of him. Rhaella suffers miscarriage after stillbirth after crib death. She is punished for this by Aerys via isolation and presumably Rhaegar is also kept separate from her— textually we know that Rhaegar was expected to take a sister to bride, i.e. further targcest was going to be enforced by Aerys, and to Rhaegar the loss would have also been of the other two people who would have fulfilled the requirements of the prophecy. Yes that's true. However, it was also the loss of his mother.

Rhaella was 13 when she had Rhaegar so it would be ridiculous to even think that she, a child, a Queen from when Rhaegar was 3, was this grand maternal figure to him. Of course she wasn't. There was too much on her shoulders. Too much on Aerys's shoulders as well, to be any sort of father except the kind who trotted Rhaegar out as an impressive little heir from time to time. Rhaegar was Aerys's success (it's the duty of the patriarch to sire sons who will continue the line) but as Rhaegar's siblings failed to survive, that success became a dicey thing. So when Viserys was born & survived, there is a thought that Rhaegar would latch onto such a sibling. This isn't the case— in fact, Viserys is Rhaella's. She coddles him. Keeps him close. Safe from Aerys (who already has Rhaegar). Viserys tells Dany stories about Rhaegar but this is done in the sense that he does not truly know Rhaegar. Why wouldn't Rhaegar have spent more time with Viserys, if he was motivated by fulfillment of the prophecy?

Because Viserys was Rhaella's, perhaps. Rhaegar never truly got to be his mother's son. To leech Viserys away from her... there's something in that. When Rhaella warmly welcomed Rhaegar's daughter, too. Rhaella's was Aerys's wife and property, which Rhaegar knew because he was also Aerys's property. Rhaella was mother to his brother. Rhaella was a grandmother to his daughter. She was everything but the woman who raised him.

"Rhaegar was a lonely man anyway due to his depression" yes that's true. There is an asceticism to Rhaegar Targaryen. The places he enjoys are bare and stripped, places he can keep his own company: Summerhall, the place of his birth, haunted, full of magic. Dragonstone where he retreats after his marriage, a place where the last embers of Valyria's magic died. Later the Tower of Joy is in a barren desert. But he finds a beauty in these places. He writes music that pushes him back into the shared world, songs he shares with people, about people, about lovers and those who sacrificed and who he is deeply moved by— almost like he's motivating himself. People are drawn to him.

Despite his lack of connection to Rhaella and Viserys he does bond with people. Arthur Dayne, who for all we can try and complicate, apply horseshoe theory to, is meant as the juxtaposition to characters such as the Smiling Knight. Brave as brass Myles Mooton whose memory his people still call upon. Richard Lonmouth and Jon Connington, both technically vassals to Robert Baratheon, funny little irony there. Princess Elia his wife who he is fond of along with the Dornishmen she comes to court with, "particularly" Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard, who is in Rhaegar's confidence (per AWOIAF). These bonds seem strong because not a whiff of possible disloyalty on Rhaegar's part ever reaches Aerys despite it definitely existing and Aerys actively looking for it (again per AWOIAF). Do these confidantes know about Aegon's prophecy? IDK. At least in JonCon's case the answer seems to be no. However we also know JonCon wasn't actually the closest to Rhaegar. Nonetheless, I think we can assume that outside of Arthur Myles and Richard most of these were political relationships which Rhaegar pursued and all were concerned about Aerys's instability— there is also Tywin who Rhaegar performs certain overtures towards (such as knighting Gregor, Tywin's man, at a time when the Aerys-Tywin relationship had just grown particularly sour) indicating he'd like him as an ally. This is all straying away from TPTWP but I think it's important, it shows that even imbued with purpose, Rhaegar was in a position that did not lend itself towards him being able to take much action...

Then winter breaks. Spring comes. Nobody knows it's false yet. Rhaegar's whole deal is this coming Long Night. Everyone takes, quite literally, a breath of fresh air, and the tourney of Harrenhal commences, with Rhaegar as a shadow sponsor, thinking to call an informal Great Council which will begin to deal with Aerys (step 1)(step 1 failed).

This is where matters of prophecy come back into focus. I've covered Rhaegar's various relationships, the shallowness of them, the stagnancy in Developments due to Aerys's paranoia, etc. Harrenhal is not a solitary place but it is flush with magic in a way similar to Summerhall and Dragonstone— all places where dragons have died Harrenhal is thematically the cannibal dragon let's not get into that. And this is important to Rhaegar's characterization because of how things unfold with Lyanna Stark in several ways: 1) Lyanna cries to his song. Before they formally meet Lyanna is touched by the magic and purpose and sacrifice and yes, love, of which Rhaegar sings. It speaks to her. Of course, many others likely cried too. Common occurrence, see: A song of love and doom, Jon Connington recalled, and every woman in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp. Not the men, of course. Rhaegar gender moment but I digress. 2) Rhaegar's discovery of her as the KOTLT despite Robert & Richard Lonmouth both vowing to do so, those raucous manly men, both of whom failed; Rhaegar's subsequent hiding of her identity to unknown consequence for himself if any. All he produces is her shield which is painted with a tree on it, a purposeful callback to Duncan the Tall's shield, both Lyanna and Dunk being 'false knights' yet, in their actions, true ones. Sorry I love Lyanna so much I can't resist plugging her greatest hits 3) Rhaegar winning the tourney, the only tourney he's ever won... and immediately tainting his victory by awarding it to Lyanna instead.

I bring this all up and frame it because here we see that Rhaegar is not really invested in his own victory or legacy or even really his honor. His wife Princess Elia is there and she is pregnant with his son, something he could commemorate in the same vein that Aerys "honored" Rhaegar by showcasing him at various tourneys, an ode to a future warrior king, but Rhaegar doesn't do that. It's not his victory as a Man. It's never been about his victory as a Man. It doesn't even need to be his victory.

Neither does Aegon's prophecy. Rhaegar rapidly realizes that on two fronts: second, the false spring ends. It wasn't real! Rhaegar's spring isn't the lasting one. First, though, is that Rhaegar and Elia's son Aegon is born, a difficult birth in which Elia is rendered infertile. Who does this remind you of? Oh right, Aerys with Rhaella— only Rhaegar does not go about trying to impregnate Elia again. Rhaegar becomes convinced Aegon is TPTWP— something he was already thinking, prior. Rhaegar was never so invested in himself being TPTWP that he could not be convinced otherwise. Maester Aemon: Rhaegar, I thought... the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. Rhaegar agreeing "when he was young" and being "certain the bleeding star had to be a comet" all indicate that he had been looking into the possibility that TPTWP was Not Him for a while. The visits to Summerhall— maybe they were a search for proof by encasing himself in the lingering magic of the place? He still messed up the prince/princess translation presumably because baby Rhaenys never seemed to be in the conversation. (The bleeding star was in fact a comet, funnily enough, a little consolation prize for the pretty boy.) Here's what we know: in Daenerys's vision, Elia asks if Rhaegar will write Aegon a son, we can assume because he wrote their firstborn Rhaenys a song, but Rhaegar says no, he already has one. The song of ice and fire. Aegon doesn't get a song. Why? Rhaegar believes he must be a warrior.

Yet, he sings for him anyway.

Rhaegar's "it seems" and "I must" and distance from Viserys and inner conflict about Aerys and doubt about his own place in the grand scheme of things all come to fruition with Aegon's birth. Rhaegar isn't TPTWP— and it spurs him into action. A weight is off his shoulders so now he can act. As in the case of crowning Lyanna, when the purpose of a task is not to honor or elevate him, we see Rhaegar able to perform in ways he could not before.

Namely there are two veins: acting against Aerys and seeking out information of the prophecy, but Rhaegar's general direction (through the Riverlands past Harrenhal) seems to indicate that he was headed towards the Ghost of High Heart. Not Summerhall, a place of mysticism meant to soothe Rhaegar. Rather a place of pain. The Ghost of High Heart who gorged on grief at Summerhall, who only ever demands Jenny's song (which Rhaegar seems to have wrote), who sees in Arya who looks like Lyanna, who looks like Jon, death. But instead of ever making it there... Rhaegar meets Lyanna.

And then they disappear. There are the Rhaegarwars to consider so I'm just going to say that, at the least, Lyanna did not want to marry Robert though society dictated that she must, and in removing her, she was removed from this. From there she came to be in Dorne in a place that was desolate desert, but similar to Summerhall, which was also abandoned, held something of magic in that it was near where Those Who Sing The Song of the Earth had split the Arm of Dorne. We can say a lot more about this but that's not the point of the post. I have explained Rhaegar as a person disconnected from his mother, later a person who in several manners refuses to act as Aerys did towards Rhaella, indicating that disconnect troubled him — Rhaegar's limited amount of close relationships with people he admired and the deep loyalty shown to him, presumably for a reason — Rhaegar's willingness to interrogate himself & his assumptions about the world.

So when I say Rhaegar was relieved what I mean is that upon suspecting and, to his mind, confirming that he was not the fulfillment of Aegon's prophecy, Rhaegar became proactive in ways he had yearned for but not been able to before. The Rhaegar that died with Lyanna's name as his last word was not a Rhaegar who died thinking the world was doomed without him. I think the Rhaegar that died on the Trident was a Rhaegar who had escaped the shadow of fate only to meet it, face to face.

#rhaegar targaryen #asoiaf #valyrian scrolls #text #lyanna stark #gender in asoiaf #daenerys targaryen #rhaella targaryen #aerys targaryen #once again the tags are for my ownnn organization #rhaegarposting

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poorshadowspaintedqueens · 11 months

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Why do people tend to take sides regarding Robert and Cersei’s marriage when it’s clear it was a mutually abusive relationship and both are awful people?

It is possible to believe that both of them were abusive and both of them were awful and still feel that one got the worse end of the deal. Westeros is a patriarchal society. No matter what, Cersei was not the one in power in that relationship.

In short, Cersei suffered 15 years of marital abuse and rape. She also engineered Robert's murder partly because she was worried he'd find out that she'd spent most of those 15 years of abuse sleeping with her twin brother, and that the three children she claimed were Robert's were in fact Jaime's. That is unquestionably a betrayal of her marriage vows, and of Robert.

Could Robert and Cersei have been happy together? In theory, if neither of them had unresolved feelings for someone else (Lyanna, Jaime) that they then channelled into a wall of resentnment toward one another. Cersei claims that the marriage failed on her wedding night after Robert got drunk, had what was probably very rough sex with her, and called her by Lyanna's name. The only indication we get from Robert is that he hates Cersei primarily because she isn't Lyanna, and also because of those 15 years of pent-up resentment for things she's actually done.

Do I think Cersei was right to plot Robert's murder? No, I do not. I do, however, believe that if we look at her marriage to Robert, she suffered more from the imbalance of power between them than he did, and that her main reason for killing him was because she knew that if he discovered the truth about her infidelity and the parentage of their children, her life (and theirs) would be forfeit.

Even Ned thinks Robert would kill those kids. That is the only reason he gave Cersei a way out and doomed himself.

#asoiaf #asoiaf meta #gender in asoiaf #robert baratheon #cersei lannister #a song of ice and fire

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goodqueenaly · 9 months

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What do you think is the difference between lessons given to a royal princess and a daughter of a lord? And for the girls who married second or third sons or cousins, what do you think their day to day duties would be, considering the position of lady of the castle is already filled?

I don’t think there is probably a huge difference in the lesson curricula, myself. It might be the case that some lessons are more locally focused for the daughter of a lord than for the daughter of a royal princess - say, knowing her lord father’s liege lords, bannermen, and nearest neighbors by their sigils and seats, or learning the specific histories and traditions of her birthplace (which a royal princess would not necessarily know). There might also be certain cultural differences between such educational programs: the daughter of a lord who worships the old gods would not necessarily (absent, say, a Seven-worshiping mother, as the Stark children had) learn about the Faith of the Seven, and a Targaryen or Baratheon royal princess would not necessarily learn about the faith of the old gods (or, in the case of Shireen, be taught to worship the Seven as opposed to R’hllor). However, the fundamentals - subjects like reading, writing, arithmetic, High Valyrian, and needlework - would probably all have remained more or less the same.

As far as the wives of second sons go, I think generally speaking these women would follow whatever the career of such a man would be. It’s possible that, like Dorna Swyft, such women would occupy their days by “do[ing] well by their children, dream[ing] of having grandchildren, pray[ing] seven times a day, [and] lov[ing] needlework and flowers”. It’s also possible, however, that these women would act as the ladies of castles held, as Ned foresaw for Bran at the start of AGOT, in the name of their lordly brothers or relations. It’s likewise possible these women might act as companions for their sisters-in-law, as we see Leonette Fossoway doing for Margaery Tyrell in ASOS. Depending on the role of her husband, such a woman might even be performing his duties (albeit in probably an unofficial capacity); Elaena Targaryen and Florence Fossoway were both married to ruling lords, but they might just as easily have been married to second sons named to the position of master of coin, and consequently been expected to serve as unofficial appointees themselves.

#asoiaf meta #westerosi culture #gender in asoiaf

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befooremoonrisee · 9 months

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i love how the whole tywin's vision of the lannister is built on a lie he told himself. his personality is more similar to rohanne webber than any other lannister before him. he is violently mysoginistic, but his whole personality that prides him comes from his grandmother.

#a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #house lannister #rohanbe webber #tywin lannister #tywin lannister hate post #gender in asoiaf

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stheresya · 7 months

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sansa exists as a representation of traditional femininity in the sense that she has the personality traits that are considered "feminine" and enjoys all activities that are deemed "for women" in westeros, but also in the sense that femininity is a performance. she is a character that has to constantly overthink her appearance, her behavior and her words to see if they conform to people's expectations of a proper lady and a well behaved hostage, she has to endure horrors while forcing herself to smile and please because expressing her honest self would get her in serious trouble. sansa is traditionally feminine because she is first and foremost a performer whose life depends on looking pretty and pleasant to people who have power over her.

#does this make sense? i hope so..#sansa stark #asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #meta #gender stuff

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visenyaism · 4 months

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unbearably classic lannister moment where like the most righteous heroic society improving thing you do (jaime killing aerys, cersei killing robert, tyrion killing tywin) is also the thing that you are reviled for forever. who is doing it like them

#that and getting accused of every crime except for the one you did #hey that’s regicide husband-murder and parricide. y’all think this series has anything 2 say about gender and violence or nah #asoiaf

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wodania · 1 month

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jaime and cersei sharing wardrobes

bonus under the cut

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atopvisenyashill · 3 months

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"I remember a man throwing me in the air when I was very little. He stands as tall as the sky, and he throws me up so high it feels as though I'm flying. We're both laughing, laughing so much that I can hardly catch a breath, and finally I laugh so hard I wet myself, but that only makes him laugh the louder. I was never afraid when he was throwing me. I knew that he would always be there to catch me. Then one day he wasn't. Men come and go. They lie, or die, or leave you. A mountain is not a man, though, and a stone is a mountain's daughter. I trust my father, and I trust my mules. I won't fall."

I love this passage for a lot of reasons but I love the play on "a stone is a mountain's daughter" here because she's not just explaining why she wasn't afraid when she slipped, or even why she cares little for the opinions of others on whether she's a "proper" lady or not; instead, she's warning Alayne, warning a fellow daughter of the mountain that men are not to be trusted.

She's saying to Alayne, look at what has become of me. Your father is kind now but he will leave when he's bored of playing house or he will die without bothering to set up care for you, and then you will have no one to make sure you are safe. She is saying my Sister Stone, you must keep yourself safe because Petyr Baelish will not, anymore than Sweetrobin or Harry the Heir will. You have to have a skill that will keep you safe, and courage, or you will never make it as a bastard girl in the real world.

#valyrianscrolls #mya stone #alayne stone #sansa stark #rani liveblogs asoiaf #legitimacy in asoiaf #gender politics in asoiaf #smallfolk rise up

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catofoldstones · 5 months

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The fact that the episode where Arya assists Tywin and famously says “most girls are stupid” corresponds directly with the chapter in the books where she overhears Chiswyck laughing about how the mountain and his lackeys (him included) gang-raped a 13 year old child, and this harrows and angers Arya so much that she adds all of these people to her prayer kill list and uses her one of her three precious death-wishes with Jaqen H’ghar is the reason I will be personally beating the bloody shit out of d&d.

#how can you turn such a pivotal moment such a delicate scene with systemic gendered violence #into mOsT giRLs aRE stUPiD #get a hold of yourself #the show was bad before s8 #so bad #and I would love to say that this was the canary in the coal mines #but that was actually s1e1 #game of thrones #at the club beating the shit out of d&d #you are free to join me #got rewatch #arya stark #acok #asoiaf #the misogyny is really popping up with these guys #<- edit

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arte072 · 11 months

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you ever think about how the asoiaf fandom will go on and on about Arya’s “traditionally masculine” journey and then you read her chapters and it’s like

being criticized by adult women for not sufficiently excelling in useless gender roles

getting a puppy!! 🐶

losing the puppy 😿

picking flowers for her dad 💐🥰

being victim blamed for the actions of a guy 😑

being bullied for her appearance 😞

becomes homeless

takes care of a bunch of kids

gets engaged to men she doesn’t know

becomes a prisoner of war

forced to cook and clean under extremely violent and abusive circumstances

witnessing and experiencing war crimes

female rage 🤬😡💢👿

gets a crush on a boy with shaggy hair and blue eyes~~ 😳💙🔨

talks to god 🌲

gets kidnapped by a loser 🙄🔥

worry that her mother will reject her for getting dirty 😭

gets depression

learns blood magic

becomes an academic 🏫🎓🤓

becomes a theater kid 🎭

awakening the magic from within ✨🐺🌕🌙✨

if all of these are inherently masculine then I do wonder what is considered acceptably “feminine” in these people’s eyes. crying in a dress? because she does that too... but y’know this fandom and their desperation to separate Arya from her girlhood lol

#arya stark #house stark #though to be very clear #arya's story transcends gender boundaries #cause she's a fully realized character who isn't limited by the constraints of tradfem or 90s tomboy cliches #asoiaf

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vivacissimx · 2 months

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Theon's choice not to visit Alannys was not a choice

Cannot believe it took this long for me to get around to this meta—also, feel free to read my whole spiel about Theon's father figures in Ned, Balon, and Roose here, because it does inform my view.

OK, Alannys Harlaw hours.

The conception of Theon's motivations in the situation where he does not go to see his mother when he returns to the Islands is a bit harsh on Theon. It ignores that Theon has not been avoiding Alannys all these years: he has been kept from her. Theon's access to her has always been controlled by the NedBalons in his life.

I want to get into the idea that this is not happenstance. That Theon's father figures control his access to his mother, which is not even a novel concept in ASOIAF. Jon Snow, who is Theon's foil, also has access to his mother restricted by—woah! Ned Stark as well!! (And both Jon and Theon are expected to be grateful for this too.)

Theon's homecoming to Pyke does not result in him rushing triumphant as the prodigal son into his loving mother's arms because in fact Alannys is not even on Pyke (though Theon thought she would be). Nope, it's Theon's suspicious, resentful, and yes "homophobic" uncle as well as father who Theon meets. From here it is just assumed that Theon has perfect access to Alannys, and that him not hopskipping over to Harlaw is purely his preference. (Are you catching on to the idea that I disagree with this, yet?)

Getting into Theon as a character & how he acts under suspicious/mistrustful eyes:

As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark's stern face and great dark sword. His wife was, if anything, even more distant and suspicious. [ACOK, Theon I]

“What I am about to tell you must not leave this room,” she told them. “I want your oaths on that. If even part of what I suspect is true, Ned and my girls have ridden into deadly danger, and a word in the wrong ears could mean their lives.” “Lord Eddard is a second father to me,” said Theon Greyjoy. “I do so swear.” [AGOT, Catelyn III]

Ned turned back to his wife. “Once you are home, send word to Helman Tallhart and Galbart Glover under my seal. They are to raise a hundred bowmen each and fortify Moat Cailin. Two hundred determined archers can hold the Neck against an army. Instruct Lord Manderly that he is to strengthen and repair all his defenses at WhiteHarbor, and see that they are well manned. And from this day on, I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father’s fleet.” [AGOT, Eddard IV]

Theon knows he is not trusted in Winterfell. Catelyn including Theon in this circle of ooh secrets is mostly due to the fact that Robb physically brought him & also because she knows that Theon does not really even have the ability to betray her on this front. He definitely knows that. Ned does not have a paternal relationship with Theon & does not perceive himself as Theon's father any more than Theon believes he is Ned's son (in the manner that Robb or Bran or even Jon is), so why does Theon lie here?

HE IS OVERPERFORMING HIS COMMITMENT TO THE PATRIARCH FIGURE IN WHOSE HANDS HIS LIFE/FUTURE LIES.

Theon predicates his vow to Catelyn with an affirmation of his willingness to do service to Ned, and in fact that's what his access to her relies on. That's probably why he makes such a production of incessantly flirting with her too; because of how it implies he is in Ned and later Robb's good graces! Of course AGOT Theon is also just a flirt for the purposes of producing his masculinity in general. But does anyone really disagree? Moving on.

The door was grey wood studded with iron, and Theon found it barred from the inside. He hammered on it with a fist, and cursed when a splinter snagged the fabric of his glove. The wood was damp and moldy, the iron studs rusted. After a moment the door was opened from within by a guard in a black iron breastplate and pothelm. "You are the son?" "Out of my way, or you'll learn who I am." [ACOK, Theon I]

(Even the damn door is in on it LOL)

Theon knelt. He had a purpose here, and might need Aeron's help to achieve it. A crown was worth a little mud and horseshit on his breeches, he supposed.

He was playing the part of a dutiful young prince for the moment, while he waited for Lord Balon to reveal the fullness of his plans. [ACOK, Theon II]

"My father gave me the command here, Uncle." "And sent me to counsel you." And to watch me. Theon dare not push matters too far with his uncle. The command was his, yes, but his men had a faith in the Drowned God that they did not have in him, and they were terrified of Aeron Damphair. [ACOK, Theon III]

THEON IS PERFORMING FOR BALON. His father doesn't approve of him and Theon is playing the part. He is making every overture and concession to obedience, or piety, that is asked of him. Balon, Aeron, Asha, even Victarion make sure he knows when he's failing—whether it's with an express disapproval or just a knowing laugh. Theon notes all of this because due to how he was raised he's extremely perceptive of how those with power over him regard him.

And Balon does not criticize Theon for not visiting Alannys.

"Will I find my sister and my lady mother at Pyke?" "You will not. [ACOK, Theon I]

Harlaw is only a day’s sail, and surely Lady Greyjoy yearns for a last sight of her son.” “Would that I could. I am kept too busy here. My father relies on me, now that I am returned. Come peace, perhaps...” [ACOK, Theon II]

Theon visiting his mother is not reliant on his own self-motivation, but on whether or not Balon grants him access to her. This is not to say Balon expressly forbade it or that there would have been any direct consequences if Theon had gone over... but it's about goodwill, not permission! What else changes between Theon asking about Alannys when he returns to Pyke and when he explicitly tells Asha that he can't go see her because Balon, because war? Simple: he needs to prove himself to his father as loyal and strong first. To make it explicit, Ned & Robb allowed Theon access to Catelyn in the same manner that Balon refuses (or, at the least, disapproves of) Theon's access to Alannys. Theon is sensitive to this disapproval and does not push the matter.

The only person who pushes Theon to go to Alannys is Asha. Asha obviously has Balon's trust, though, and it could be said she takes it for granted. Asha's level of understanding of Theon is complex; she recognizes him but she doesn't know him. When she says this:

You are blood of my blood, Theon, whatever else you may be. For the sake of the mother who bore us both, return to Deepwood Motte with me. [ACOK, Theon V]

it's actually wild how much is packed in here. For the sake of the mother who bore us both: Theon doesn't yet have the right to Alannys or even know how she'd receive him, given his other receptions on Pyke. Return to Deepwood Motte: the castle Theon believes he should have been tasked with taking above Asha, a concrete proof of his father's mistrust in him, which amongst other reasons spurs on his taking on Winterfell to begin with.

Personally I think Theon as a symbol of Balon's failed rebellion does make him, in Balon's eyes, also a symbol of his failed marriage. Theon does not confirm Baelon's masculinity as a son should, as Asha does. He is a reminder of the ways in which Balon lacks.

I also believe that Theon ~misses his mother, FWIW. He thinks back to his childhood sleeping in the Sea Tower while on his way to Pyke which is a mommy-coded memory; he expects to sleep in his old chambers again when he returns to Pyke—both that and his expectation of seeing Alannys are swiftly disabused. He will not be slipping into his old roles, Theon learns through the reunion with Balon which is violent in more ways than one. It's interesting because Theon actually expects to have to prove himself to his father (which is why he comes armed with a plan for taking Casterly Rock) but he doesn't expect to be punished for having been held hostage all these years.

If we are indulging in symbolism, though:

Above the Sea Tower snapped his father's banner. The Myraham was too far off for Theon to see more than the cloth itself, but he knew the device it bore: the golden kraken of House Greyjoy, arms writhing and reaching against a black field. The banner streamed from an iron mast, shivering and twisting as the wind gusted, like a bird struggling to take flight. And here at least the direwolf of Stark did not fly above, casting its shadow down upon the Greyjoy kraken. [ACOK, Theon I]

The Sea Tower where Theon's childhood memories & hopes for return to his family lie is dominated by his father's banner. At least it's Balon Greyjoy and not Ned Stark, Theon tells himself. Yet the result is the paralleled, mirrored, as Balon and Ned often are with Theon: under Ned's control Theon can't see Alannys because he is Balon Greyjoy's son, while under Balon's control Theon is discouraged from seeing Alannys because he isn't son enough. Perhaps Theon does prioritize the goodwill of his patriarch because he views it as an essential ingredient to his survival and success... but he's also absolutely aware of the role the wife/mother/lady/queen plays in the whole arena too. As power, as leverage. It's pretty plain when you consider that he tells Barbrey she could claim leadership over the North if she so desired. He took such pleasure in being relatively intimate with Catelyn as well.

So, he knows. Yet they're still all held above his head like a little treat. Delicious.

#theon greyjoy #alannys harlaw #ned stark #balon greyjoy #asha greyjoy #aeron greyjoy #text #meta #asoiaf #valyrianscrolls #gender in asoiaf

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poorshadowspaintedqueens · 11 months

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Just to piggyback off your previous ask, my unpopular opinion is that i genuinely believe that cersei's abuse of robert is overexaggerated by fans because she's a dislikable character and people have a hard time seeing her as a victim. Also because robert is positioned as a lovable oaf.

I think GRRM honestly did a great job introducing Robert through Ned as a man Ned desperately wants to still love even though the man he remembers died long ago. But you have to read between the lines, and pay attention to everything Ned isn't saying.

I actually wrote an entire academic article about Cersei as a character and I'll screenshot the relevant section:

#asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #gender in asoiaf #cersei lannister #robert baratheon

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goodqueenaly · 10 months

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Hi! Do you think the average noblewoman gets any education concerning the actual governance of lands? Margaery, Catelyn and Rohanne Webber seemed well informed, but Cat and Rohanne were both considered heirs by their fathers. But, even if girls don’t inherit in their own right, they always stand the chance of being widowed and having to manage things for their kids. I feel like Sansa and Arya might too young for us to know what their full education would have been like at home. (TBC)

(Continuation) Cersei did not seem to think much of her education. Do you think it depends on the family?

As we see (albeit to a limited and mostly post facto extent) with Sansa and Arya, it’s not that aristocratic daughters are given no practical (for a feudal aristocrat, anyway) education whatsoever. Indeed, the expectation of such girls eventually overseeing the running of (marital) establishments is often there from the start; in her very first chapter in the series, for instance, Arya considers that she would be better at Sansa at “manag[ing] a household”, because “Sansa had never had much of a head for figures” (even wryly thinking that if Sansa “did marry Prince Joff, Arya hoped for his sake that he had a good steward”). Westerosi aristocratic daughters appear to be given much (though importantly, not all or the same - more on that in a second) of the education afforded to their brothers or other male relations: reading, writing, High Valyrian, history, heraldry, and arithmetic, to name the basic subjects.

Where Westerosi aristocratic sons critically differ in their typical education, however, is in their access to training in both military skills and the daily business of governance. Because Westeros is both a military aristocracy and (directly relatedly, of course) a patriarchal and ableist society, the general expectation is that the ruling class will be comprised of able-bodied men who can lead armies in war and other martial ventures. While it’s not completely without precedent that a Westerosi noblewoman would lead her own troops or fight in battle, Westerosi aristocratic daughters are not generally going to be afforded this sort of training in the same way that their brothers or male relations would have it as part of the expected educational program. Consequently, Westerosi aristocratic women are not typically going to raised to be the wartime leaders that other Westerosi aristocrats usually expect from their ruling class.

Likewise, Westerosi aristocratic daughters may not typically be afforded the opportunity to have right-hand experience with their (typically male) ruling predecessors. Think of, say, Jon’s recognition that “Lord Eddard had often made Robb part of his councils back at Winterfell”, or Randyll Tarly’s desire to bring young Dickon when he, Randyll, went to pay homage to Lord Tyrell, or even Ned’s inclusion of Bran in the party that accompanied him to execute Gared (and, pointedly, Ned’s exclusion of Bran’s older sisters at the same event). Again, this is not to say it would be impossible for a lord (or lady) to include a daughter in these sort of events, but that sort of direct grooming for future wielding of power seems to be the exception rather than the rule with aristocratic ladies.

And of course, education of any sort or level only goes so far in a patriarchal world. As Rohanne Webber sadly relates, the mere fact of a woman in charge of an aristocratic holding can encourage male rivals to undermine or pick away at her authority, in the belief that a woman would be too weak to assert herself. This doesn’t mean Westerosi aristocratic women are completely incapable of ruling in their own right, of course, but it does mean that women in Westeros have that much more difficult of a time asserting themselves in a world where - thanks to patriarchal expectations - they do not possessed the qualities assumed necessary for leadership. Even among fathers who recognize daughters as their heirs, there can be a sense in which they expect or want a male figure to rule with or through her: Selwyn Tarth tried three times to marry Brienne to aristocratic partners, after all, while Wyman Webber explicitly made Rohanne’s inheritance of Coldmoat conditional on her marrying within two years of his death. In a world where (outside Dorne) the expectation among the aristocratic classes is that power will flow from males, through males, to males, daughters are often raised to be not so much heirs in their own right but more as managers of male households and mothers of future male heirs (which was certainly true of Tywin's view of Cersei as well).

#asoiaf meta #westerosi culture #gender in asoiaf

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racefortheironthrone · 7 months

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Hello, I’ve a part asoiaf part medieval history question. So despite the strict gender roles, we know that women (at least noble women) can enjoy some “male” activities like horse riding and some kinds of hunting (Cat says Arya can have a hunting hawk). Are there any other “male” activities women can partake too without being judged about it, or even encouraged to do so (both in Westeros and real world)?

So as medievalists and historians of gender have pointed out, ASOIAF is far more restrictive for women than actual medieval Europe. I'm actually going to leave aside the situation of noblewoman for a second, because the vast majority of women were not nobles and their experience of gender would be radically different.

What counted as "male activities" for example would vary enormously by location (rural vs. urban) and thus occupation (farmer vs. artisan). Among the peasantry, while men tended to work in the fields and concentrated on cereal-crop production and women tended to do the manifold work of maintaining the home, the reality is that the irregular nature of agricultural labor meant that in times of high demand (especially spring sowing and autumn harvest) it was a matter of survival for every single member of the household to work in the fields. So women absolutely knew how to work a plow, and swing a scythe.

As for the urban worker, while there was also a high degree of gender segregation by occupation and guilds could often be quite misogynistic when it came to trying to masculinize trades (especially those involving higher rates of capital investment), it was also true that the entire household was expected to contribute their labor, so that wives, daughters, collateral female relatives, and female servants picked up the trade alongside their male counterpart. Moreover, as biased towards men as guilds could be, they were even more committed to the principle that guild businesses were family businesses, and so in situations where a master artisan had only daughters or died childless or died with underage heirs, it was absolutely routine for guilds to admit daughters and widows as guild members, indeed usually at the rank of master, all so that the business could remain in the same family. This is why medievalists can point to so many examples of women who worked in skilled trades, often at a high level.

That's what I think GRRM's portrait of medieval society is missing: an entire world of women in business, working elbow-to-elbow with men to make a living.

As for noblewomen, part of the difficulty is that a big part of being a noble was not doing stuff - not working for a living, chiefly - and instead engaging in leisure activities as much as possible. And women were very much a part of those activities (indeed, for many of them the point was to mingle with eligible people of the opposite gender), whether that's feasting, dancing, hunting, hawking, theater and other entertainments, fireworks, tourneys and jousts, etc.

However, women were also engaged in the main "occupations" of the nobility - estate management and politics - way more than GRRM really takes note of. To begin with, as even GRRM acknowledges to some extent, the lady of the house was expected to take an active role in running the house, which meant managing servants, keeping track of accounts payable and receivable, making sure the supplies arrive on time and in the right quality and quantity, keeping an eye on maintenance and repairs (with the help of servants, natch), etc.

Given that even the manor houses of the nobility were units of economic production, the lady of the house would also be responsible for oversight of how the house was doing with its pigs, goats, chickens and pigeons and geese, bees (because beeswax and honey were really important commodities), sheep, and so on, and what kind of figures they were pulling down at the mill and the weir, and so forth.

As medievalists have known for a long time, this list of duties got even longer whenever the lord of the house was away at war or on business, when the lady would be expected to pick up all his work too - which means making sure the rents and taxes get paid, deciding which fields to distribute manpower to and when, dealing with legal disputes in the manorial court, and so on. And if the war came home, the lady of the house was expected to lead the defense of the castle and there are many, many examples of noblewomen who had to organize sieges that lasted months and even years.

However, we also have to consider the impact of inheritance by birth and the inherent randomness of sex at birth - as much as they tried to avoid it, plenty of noble houses ended up with female heirs or in the hands of widows. Most of the time in most countries, women could and did inherit (or at the very least their male children and relatives could inherit through them) titles and fiefdoms, and while their husbands would often take on overlordship de jure uxoris, unmarried women and widows very much exercised their authority as the Lady or Baroness or Countess or whatever, and history is also full of women who were extremely influential in medieval politics and backed up their influence by any means necessary.

#history #medieval history #feudalism #history of gender #westerosi feudalism #westerosi gender roles #asoiaf #asoiaf meta #race for the iron throne #historical analysis

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