#burnt badger secondary
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un-burning lion primary (unhealthy badger model) + burnt badger secondary
would it be okay to ask you to help sort me? i have no clue what i am. i took the test twice, at first i got lion-something (i don’t remember), now i got snake-bird. i’m not like, hyperfamiliar w/ the system, so i apologize in advance if i’m rambling about something unimportant, or leaving out details that would help pinpoint my type. also if i’m just completely incomprehensible. or if this is too personal? Like, feel free to ignore if this come across too trauma-dumpy, or to skip and delete if this is too much to read?
Well, someone’s Burnt.
I understand that you’re essentially doing a service for free on the internet and you don’t really owe me anything.
I do this because it’s interesting, and it’s fun. I think it’s good for me, and I’ve definitely helped some people. But your focus on *owing* things is... kind of interesting. I wonder if you might not have some strong ideas of authority and transaction in your life? Maybe some Badger? Just a thought.
ever since i was little, i was very. uh. idealistic? very into social justice, very much root-for-the underdog, i even had kind of sad fantasies of being some sort of revolutionary martyr as as child, “like, man, if i could die in a way that means i’m remembered (and that my life meant something) and sends a message, that’d be cool.”
...honestly, I think every Idealist (especially every Lion, good lord) has had the Joan of Arc fantasy. I get it. There’s something very easy about the idea of dying for a cause you are 100% sure is correct. I remember being about 15, and being hit right between the eyes by this bit from one of my favorite books -
“It was not the homecoming that made my sprits lift, but the fact that I still had a job to do for Ambrosius... I believe that all the time I was was half hoping that I would be asked to die for him. I was very young.”
the reality is, i’ve dealt with quite a bit of hardship since i was little and this overfocus on the issues of society was a fun way for me to displace the anguish and rage i was feeling regarding my own personal situation. I think internally I felt really helpless to do anything, i was being dismissed, i had absolutely no one help or understand me in any meaningful way.
Well then you’re way ahead of where I was.
I mean you’re completely correct. You have power fantasies when you feel powerless, because you feel powerless. I even think they’re a pretty helpful and risk-free coping strategy in the moment. The first step to getting yourself out of a bad situation is imagining yourself powerful.
even with people i held close, i didn’t really realize i could talk about what i was going through, i was kind of there to be silly and fun.
Ooooh. Stuck in a ‘bit.’ This could be some Actor Bird, but I don’t know. Something about the way it’s phrased is making me think Badger. “I was there to be silly and fun” = my purpose [to the group] was to be silly and fun [and I am only my purpose.] Have we got an Invisible Badger secondary?
when it comes to causes, it eventually struck me that i wasn’t fueled by any real feeling of “purpose”, i was just plain old sad and projected it onto literally ~anyone~ who was also sad because i thought focusing on myself is bad.
Well. Congratulations on working though it. You must have done some serious work, to be able to lay it out this well and this succinctly. I am very aware of this coping strategy - focus on other people, all day everyday. That way 1) you get to feel good about yourself 2) you have an easy way to make other people back of your case 3) you don’t have to think about or deal with your own issues.
Younger you sounds so Lion, and older you seems to have latched onto some pretty toxic Badger Primary talking points. I think this might be a Burned Lion story. You lost your “feeling of purpose” and latched on to a set of external beliefs that are being branded as “good.”
and when i tried to put action to my beliefs, i wouldn’t like, measure my rage and my actions to be within the bounds of that same “right and wrong” i was otherwise so concerned with; i learnt through some pretty tough experiences that there are people who are beyond reasoning, so i’d fight fire with fire all the damn time, and that made sense to me -
Hmm. Out of control Lion secondary? Something beneath a “silly and fun” model that is just clawing its way out? Or were you just living in a loud (slightly exploded) Lion primary?
but a lot of people reacted as if i was out of control, even people within the communities i identified so strongly, that i was under the impression would understand why and what i’m doing. that, uh, hurt, although i understood where they were coming from and would adjust my behavior.
So your communities (that you thought would understand you) actually thought you went too far, and freaked out. This is going to hurt no matter who you are, but this focus on communities, and correctly gauging vs incorrectly gauging the community is saying Badger to me. And since it’s about problem solving, it’s saying more Badger secondary..
To further illustrate my Savior Complex, i’d often find myself in friendships and relationships with people I felt were not treated correctly. it wasn’t built just on pity, i didn’t necessarily force friendships with people i just didn’t mesh with, but having been through A Lot, I felt like I could only connect with other people who been through A Lot.
I would normally connect the term “Savior Complex” to a Lion primary, but the way you’re talking about it here actually feels more Badger. The focus on “fairness,” the need-basing, this way of dividing the world into ‘people who’ve been though it’ and ‘people who haven’t’ is kinda Badger. I’m thinking this might be what ever system you latched onto when your Lion Burned... because it doesn’t sound good for you, or like it made you very happy.
One of them was the straw that broke the camel’s back though and really made me reevaluate what the hell am I doing. I was deeply scrutinized while i continuously gave myself away for this person. if i tried to set a boundary or question anything, i’d have the script turned around on me, and because i would pride myself on being so open minded, i’d really let whatever they accused me of doing live in my head rent free.
Ouch, yeah that’s a Badger secondary. That’s *exactly* how a Badger secondary gets taken advantage of. You want to help, because that’s what Badgers do (and struggle with boundaries, because that’s what Badger’s do.) And this is a very chilling description of how Courtier Badger mirroring, which can be so joyful and wonderful... can also flip around and hurt you. Because if you reflect what people want to see back to them, by internalizing it... yeah. You can end up with all kinds of gunk that another secondary might have just disregarded.
it eventually made me feel like everything is always my fault, and that i should just keep giving more, and trying harder. it’s only when i gave so much i basically couldn’t function anymore did i leave, and i was painted as The Bad Guy.
You were a Badger secondary who was taken advantage of.
i’m now in this weird space where i still deal a lot with guilt, but i’m trying to not engage in it. I'm really distancing myself from anything that isn’t focused on healing and improving myself, causes included. My first priority should be being happy, and comfortable, and satisfied, and safe.
YES. Correct. Won’t be any use to anyone (or any Cause either) if you’re not those things first.
and also realizing that sometimes doing what i think is right will make people think i’m in the wrong, and that doesn’t mean that i am, and that truths can even co-exist. i got kind of meaner, but also take losses easier and don’t try to push things that don’t work anywyay.
You sound healthier. And you sound healthier in a Lion primary way, more than a Badger primary way. Little more mean, little more of a loner (and cool with it), little more of “that sounds like a you problem,” “what is true for me might not be true for you.”
i do kind of still yearn for someone to understand me
That’s being human.
but not to sound like an ass but most people give me a headache. Too much black and white, too much group-thinking,
You’ll be okay, and people will also look better after you’ve healed a little. It sounds to me like you were probably in some pretty toxic Badger spaces, so of course these traits are too much for you right now.
not enough communication (i don’t get social cues whatsoever) etc. I act friendly enough because there’s no real way to survive as an island on your own but it is exhausting lol
Your secondary sounds like it was severely, severely burned, in a burnt out kind of way. And right now, you are doing what you need to do to let it heal. And next time you’ll do better. Your communication and your boundaries will be better, and you won’t have to spend all your time being the fun person who never asks for anything.
thoughtfulrunawaything
#sortinghatchats#shc#lion badger#lion primary#badger secondary#burnt lion primary#badger primary model#burnt badger secondary#wisteria sorts#sortme
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Anastasia: SortingHatChats
Hey, guys, I back now.
Anastasia time.
So, as a DISCLAIMER: THIS FILM IS A WORK OF FICTION. I highly recommend looking into the actual history behind the film if you're interested!
Here we go!
(I seem to recall there being a sorting already posted of Anastasia, but I remember disagreeing with most of it? Absolutely no offense meant to whoever originally posted it! These are just my two cents!)
ANASTASIA/ANYA
BADGER PRIMARY
Anya's entire storyline revolves around the ideas of "family," "home," and "belonging." Not just her own, personal family (which would be Snake,) not necessarily the home she remembers being born into (as far as she knows, she's an orphan,) and not only her own state of belonging. She deals in the concept of these things as though they were basic necessities: everyone should want them, and she wants them because everyone needs them in order to be whole. This is truth to her, full stop.
Anya: "Do you think you're gonna miss it?"
Dimitri: "Miss what, your talking?
Anya: "No! Russia."
Dimitri: "Nope."
Anya: "But it was your home!"
Dimitri: It was a place I once lived. End of story."
Anya: "Well, then you must plan on making Paris your true home."
Dimitri: "What is it with you and homes?!"
Anya: "Well, for one thing, it's something that every normal person wants!"
This is not a belief system, nor is it a conclusion she's come to. It's something that is such a part of her make up as a human being, that to imagine that another person doesn't care about the concept of a "true home" or "true community" is downright disturbing to her. Her desire for "home, love, family" is not her trying to seek out individuals she already knows, but to find the space she came from, filled with strangers she's never met, but who she believes will accept her through the power of community. It reads very animated Hercules, often dreaming of a far off place where a voice keeps saying, THIS is where I'm meant to be. Badger Primaries love the idea of having a secret family they've never met that will swoop in and carry them away, loving them unconditionally, when the world immediately around them has been so cruel. Lonely Badger Primaries are the perfect characters to fall in love with the idea of being long lost royalty. The main character arc Anya goes through is learning that family is not just the people who gave birth to you: Found family is not only just as powerful, but can become even moreso over time. This is the same moral the animated Hercules learns! Belonging and community is created and watered like a garden: If you keep searching for your perfect, idealized community, you might miss the one forming right before your eyes.
LION SECONDARY
It doesn't take long to pin Anya as a rather loud Lion Secondary. She is unafraid to voice her opinions, and often does so in a blunt and unashamed way. SShe absolutely DESPISES lying, and she is the first to take the easiest, most straight forward way out.
Dimitri: (trying to detach a traincar after breaking multiple tools) "COME ON, there's gotta be something in there better than this!!"
Anya: (wordlessly hands Dimitri a stick of lit dynamite)
Dimitri: "That'll work!"
What this movie actual shows is an interesting, not as often explored aspect of the Badger Lion, which is how the brash and straightforward nature of the Lion Secondary can work against the desires of the Badger Primary. Anya longs for nothing more than home and community, but often inadvertently (and not so inadvertently) alienates those around her with her cutting phrasing. It takes a more grounded, good listener like Vlad to see past Anya's brashness almost immediately, understanding the intentions behind her bravado.
Vlad: "I see an engaging and fiery young woman, who on a number of occasions has shown a regal command equal to any royal in the world!"
DIMITRI
SNAKE PRIMARY (Initially Burnt)
Dimitri's storyline is a bit deeper than many people might initially realize. What we're looking at is a Snake Primary who, at a very young age, tried to save one of their People (the Princess Anastasia, for whom he is implied to have either a childhood friendship with or just a faraway crush,) and failed, horribly. In fact, they failed to the point that they believe they are at least partially to blame for the death of that Person. That's about as deep and dark of a hole as a Snake Primary can fall into, so the Snake Primary will, naturally, Burn and find new, non-Person things to fill that void. Namely, recognition and fortune.
Dimitri: "Imagine the reward her dear old grandmama will pay!"
Of course,this could point to Glory Hound Lion, just as easily. If not for his Snake Primary sneaking in at every possible moment. The line following that one above is:
Dimitri: "Who else could pull it off but you and me?"
The "you" in question being Vlad, the only other Person Dimitri has allowed in (and by "allowed in," I always assumed got so tired of Vlad actively FORCING HIMSELF into Dimitri's life that he acquiesced and decided to just let him stay.) But, Dimitri's obsession with the Princess Anastasia continues, against all odds. His latest con? Directly Princess Anastasia related. Is it enough for the woman they hire to play her be "good enough?" NO. She has to be PERFECT. They hold AUDITIONS, and Dimitri is the perfect person to be on the board, because Dimitri still knows her intimately well, even after all these years. Such as hum recognizing Anastasia's face in Anya's right from the start. Thus, comes Dimitri's initial inner turmoil in regards to Anya: Are his feelings just projection? Is he attracted to her JUST because she looks like Anastasia? Is he ACTUALLY that obsessed? All those questions become moot when Anya is revealed to truly be Anastasia, though Dimitri finds himself where he was as a boy. From this point on in the movie, pretty much every motivation/choice Dimitri makes revolves around the fact that Anya IS Anastasia, and that he is going to give her what she wants and deserves, no matter what it takes. Even if that means keeping himself away from her romantically. His character arc revolves around forgiving himself for what he perceived as a dire mistake against one of his People, which is a ROUGH arc for a Snake to go through.
Dimitri: "Paris holds the key to her past. Yes, Princess, I've found you at last! No more pretend. You'll be gone, that's the end..."
SNAKE SECONDARY
Dimitri is actually quite a good con, all things considered. He manages to trick Anya into thinking they have train tickets when they DEFINITELY do not, and he keeps the reward under wraps for the entirety of their trip. Not just that, but dodging around obstacles instead of facing them head on is his most natural state. As a child, he is seen sneaking out of the kitchens (where be belongs) and automatically offering the servants' quarters as a means of escape, which is extremely clever and resourceful. Dimitri tries to charm and placate Anya at every turn, trying to keep her naturally explosive personality under wraps.
Anya: "The baggage car...? There wouldn't be anything wrong with our papers now, would there, maestro..?"
Dimitri: "Of course not, Your Grace! It's just that I hate to see you forced to mingle with all those commoners..."
But, we spend most of the film seeing Dimitri forced out of his comfort zone by both the situation and Anya's combative Lion Secondary, so he's often seen conspiratorially complaining to Vlad while in his Neutral State or just outright losing his temper and yelling. But, this never comes first, and his plans and plots are always somewhat circumventing. During the train derailment, his plans are to jump off, disconnect the train cars, and just wait until the train coasts to a stop. All pretty passive/out of the box thinking. When he IS shown trying to face someone head on, he is always unsuccessful: Trying to fight for Anastasia during the siege only to be immediately knocked out, trying to take on Rasputin directly and being tossed aside pretty easily. Comparatively, Anya/Anastasia is shown to be successful when she is upfront and combative: Getting away from Rasputin as a child by kicking him in the face, ultimately defeating Rasputin by straight up smashing his reliquary.
VLAD
LION PRIMARY
Vlad is a pretty classic Paragon Lion Primary. He wants to do what is Good and Right and doesn't what is Bad and Wrong. For what reason would he wind up as a con artist as a Paragon Lion, though? Even for Paragon Lions, what is Good and Right to THEM can go against what the collective believes is good and right.
Vlad: "That's what I hate about this government. Everything is in red!"
Yes, the above line is also meant to be a coded message for Dimitri, but Vlad thinks the government has overstepped his moral boundaries and has chosen to step outside the usual bounds to follow his own morals. Part of those morals involve guiding those he believes are lost, thus, his "adoption" of Dimitri, a very lost young man with little direction. He tries to act as Dimitri's "moral compass" until Dimitri finds his own direction again. He does the same for Anya when she comes into their group, trying to lead her towards the possibility of finding her home, while gently guiding her away from focusing on her "past."
Vlad: "There is nothing left for you back there, my dear. Everything is in Paris."
He stands up for what he believes in, and inserts himself constantly when he believes Dimitri is wrong. Letting him know when he's "walking away too soon" or when he "has to talk to her" even if she's a Princess and Dimitri's a Kitchen Boy.
BADGER SECONDARY
Vlad is one of the kindest, most lovingly genuine characters I've encountered in fiction, and I mean with that with all my heart. He is consistently gentle and understanding with the people he comes across, and is always even-tempered and fair. Compare Vlad and Dimitri's reactions to finding Anya skulking around their home:
Dimitri: (shouting, from across the room) "HEY! What are you doing in here?! HEY! STOP!"
Vlad: (coming in at a light jog, holding up his hand politely) "Excuse me, child!"
Vlad always assumes the best from whomever he's interacting with, and is excellent at getting to the root of what's bothering a person. He actively tries to make everyone in his company comfortable, and will often make soft jokes or observations in an attempt to lighten the mood. His Lion Primary makes him unable to entirely give in when he knows what's going on is wrong, but his Badger Secondary gives him the skills to broach those uncomfortable topics with grace and eloquence.
Vlad: (gives Dimitri the most fatherly, loving hug in all of animation) "Ahhh, my boy... you are making a mistake."
TL;DR
Anya/Anastasia: Badger Lion
Dimitri: Double Snake
Vlad: Lion Badger
And, there we go! Anastasia was one of my absolute FAVORITE movies as a child, so I've really enjoyed getting an opportunity to sort them! Let me know your thoughts! :)
#sorting hat chats#sortinghatchats#shc#anastasia movie#anya anastasia#dimitri anastasia#vlad anastasia#dimitri x anya#anya x dimitri#badger primary#lion secondary#snake primary#snake secondary#lion primary#badger secondary#badger lion#double snake#lion badger
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PAW Patrol SHC Sorting
The vast majority of TV shows for children glorify Badger primaries, and PAW Patrol is no exception. I mean, there were going to episodes at the start of the series where Ryder rescued all of the pups one at a time. Instead, they were already a team from the start because of a Canadian TV requirement for shows for preschoolers to have prosocial themes (like literally rescuing puppies wasn't prosocial enough, lol). So, there are going to be a lot of Badgers (especially Double Badgers). There are very few models because they're pretty simple characters who are mentally stable and act the same way in every situation. A basic explanation of the SHC system by @wisteria-lodge is here. Let's get the obvious ones out of the way first.
Ryder : Badger Bird
Ryder fits in with the stereotypical "STEM genius who also wants to help people" type of Badger Bird commonly found in characters like Tadashi from Big Hero 6. He's a Universal Badger who even saved the main villain of the series. He likes building gadgets, which is basically correspondent to a Bird secondary in this show.
Rocky : Badger Bird
He's essentially the same as Ryder, and they both build stuff. The only real difference between Ryder and Rocky is that Rocky also cares about the environment (Ryder probably does too, but with Rocky it's more explicit).
Everest : Double Badger
She's the definition of a Double Badger. She's so lonely that she latches onto the literal first person she sees (Jake) and even tried to rescue penguins before she joined the PAW Patrol. She says specifically that she "practiced rescuing penguins", which means that the penguins probably didn't need her help, but she did it anyway. It's a miracle that she never became a Burned Badger, despite being on her own for so long. As for her secondary, she tends to rely on the Courier Badger subtype way more than the Bookkeeper Badger subtype, which will become a recurring theme.
Marshall : Double Badger
He's also an obvious Double Badger. When he thinks that the rest of the PAW Patrol doesn't like him, he literally packs up and leaves (which is more commonly a Snake primary kicking themselves out of their inner circle, but Marshall couldn't rank anyone to save his life). He leaves because he thinks that he's "can't do anything right" because he keeps messing up when he tries to help people. This hints at the possibility of a Burnt Badger, at least for that episode. He also relies really heavily on the Courier Badger subtype.
Skye : Badger Lion
She's a Universal Badger (I mean, all of them are, lol), because she likes animals. I mostly based the Lion secondary off of her competitiveness in earlier seasons, her general penchant for risk-taking, and that scene of her skydiving from the movie. She was free-falling without a parachute, and she was just whooping and having fun.
Zuma : Double Lion
He's the definition of a Chill Lion primary, and he's also probably also a Paragon Lion. Zuma's secondary was actually hard for me to figure out, since he's a surfer dude who's pretty calm most of the time. I considered that he could be a Lion Badger who was literally just vibing all the time and going with the flow with their Courier Badger, before I realized that writing about so many Badger secondaries were warping my brain and that he wasn't a Badger secondary. I thought about a Lion Snake, but he's the most stable pup alive. Even in emergencies, he's just chilling out. He doesn't get fazed by anything.
He's probably the most chill Double Lion imaginable, since he also had a competitive streak in the earlier seasons, but that was really only in the first few episodes. He also has a penchant for risk-taking, though, which points to an improvisational secondary.
Chase : Double Badger
He was actually the hardest to sort for me. I considered a Snake Primary, since in the unlikely scenario where the PAW Patrol disbanded, he'd probably follow Ryder. He'd feel guilty about it, though, which points to a Badger primary.
I considered a Bird primary who has a very Badger-looking system to match Ryder, which would probably make his Bird primary Exploded too. In season one, he was scared of ghosts until Ryder told him that they weren't real, and then in season two he acted like he'd never believed that ghosts existed (which is in character for him, lol). Chase has the very specific malleability of a Bird Primary who's modelling an Exploded Badger. He'll make himself into whatever the group needs him to be, which is the definition of an Exploded Badger, but I think it's different with Bird primaries specifically because it requires a loss of agency, something that Bird primaries live by. Chase actively doesn't want agency, though. Even when he's ordering the other pups around, he's doing it in the context of rules and responsibilities, things that are outside of himself rather than internal. Bird primaries look for morality outside of themselves, even saying that they'd like a book to follow throughout their lives, which definitely fits Chase. Bird primaries also desire freedom and the ability to choose what their morality system is while exploring different options, which he doesn't want.
Chase's Badger primary is probably exploded, since he feels the need to work even when he's sick and he does things that he doesn't really want to do, like leading the PAW Patrol. Granted, this could just be the pressure of the situation, since he's generally fine with delegating responsibilities to the rest of the PAW Patrol, but that's more Ryder taking advantage of his Authoritarian Badger than anything. As for his secondary, he relies heavily on the Bookkeeper Badger subtype. He learns best by following step-by-step instructions one step at a time.
Sweetie : Snake Bird
She's a Snake Bird who acts like an Immature Lion Bird most of the time. She cares about her owner and that's literally it. She's a villain, so she's allowed to act selfish and arrogant. She's a Glory Hound Lion because she wants to be the queen. She's a Bird secondary because she presumably made Bugsby, the little green robot that follows her around, and because she likes having plans.
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I'm 90% sure I'm a Bird Secondary, except that I'm sort of a panicky person and sometimes I have moments whenn I can't think and act on my gut instead. Would this be a Lion Secondary model? Or maybe the Bird is the model?
Oh, no! Please don't sort yourself based on what happens when you're being controlled by emotion! Unless you're getting a feeling of security from these moments, like listening to your gut is your back up to your Bird, I wouldn't even count it as a part of your sorting. What people do when they're panicked, angry, afraid, or desperate only tells you how they act when emotion is the one in the driver's seat. You might be able to identify someone's Primary in this state (people usually make moves to protect or fight for what they value most when pressured), but this is not helpful in revealing Secondaries. I'd argue tdesperate people will look like Burnt Secondaries, trying anything and everything they can to get out of that situation, even if that burning doesn't last once the pressure lifts.
From the sound of it, your panic is typically Lion flavored, but ask yourself: is that panic you? Wouldn't you rather sort yourself based on what you do when you are feeling healthy and safe? It's up to you, ultimately, but as someone who struggles with anxiety, I personally don't consider my anxiety-induced reactions to be the true core of who I am. Instead, I look to what brings me out of that anxiety, back to a healthier headspace. For me, it's usually practicing something stressful beforehand (Badger) or it's looking around and realizing I can adapt to my situation, no matter how bad it gets (Snake). For you, it may be collecting knowledge or tools to help you face something you know will put you in a panic (Bird), or it very well could be trusting your gut and pushing through whatever is stressing you out (Lion). Either way, only you can answer which Secondary gives you comfort and security when things get rough.
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sorting the gang: dee reynolds
Previously: Dennis, Mac
Dee is obviously a giant Bird. OK now that we've got that obligatory joke out of the way let's do this for real.
(There aren't very many standalone Dee clips on YouTube so some of these come out of compilations, sorry! Most of those compilations need content warnings.)
Primary: Super burnt Badger (self-centered Snake model), maybe super burnt Snake
I mean it's definitely one of the Loyalists and it's definitely super burnt. (Interesting how both the Reynolds children have burnt primaries and are the only ones who do.) Dee desperately craves others' approval, is totally unable to get anyone's approval, pretends that she doesn't care about others' approval, and in doing so further sabotages her chances at gaining others' approval, usually through doing some egregious shit. That's it, that's her tragedy.
I don't know. It's hard because Dee in a healthy community and Dee with people she loves both seem equally impossible. I want to say double Snake because she definitely acts like one (and if she is burnt Badger then she has the strongest possible Snake model). Dee is in it for herself alone, and honestly she isn't even in it for herself most of the time because her self esteem is just that bad. Her character "growth" (as opposed to growing as a person) involves becoming steadily more and more OK with being loyal to herself alone, no matter how terrible of a person she becomes to do it. Becoming Frank basically.
But Dee also is pretty focused on doing whatever it takes to be accepted as "part of the Gang" or as part of a group of sophisticated ladies or popular high school bullies, or just "part of" in general. (Which she has in common with Charlie and it'd explain why they connected so easily in "The Gang Misses the Boat"... until she sabotaged it by being a terrible person obviously.) She cares about the group in the abstract, not the people in it; if anything, people having their own wishes and doing their own thing is an annoying inconvenience to her. Probably no coincidence that Artemis's roast of her starts with "the outcast."
Either way, there's something kind of telling and also kind of sad that Dee's fantasy from "The Gang Saves the Day" involves getting everybody to praise and admire her, then killing and/or betraying them immediately afterward, and now she's alone:
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too soon
Secondary: Snake (occasional Badger model)
This one is pretty obvious I think. Dee's way of dealing with problems is to think fast, lie and manipulate her way out of them, and then when her lying doesn't work, come up with a different lie.
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I mean she "succeeds" in getting the therapist to tell her she's good and to not have to do actual therapy
There's an important distinction here between "compulsively lies to get out of situations" and "is good at lying to get out of situations" and most Dee plots exploit how she is bad at it. ("...did it not go through?") Constant string of failure. Every time she says "goddamnit" is like her own personal Pokemon cry for going into neutral.
But honestly? She's not THAT bad at her Snake secondary. She is the only person who ever managed to get out of Dennis's "escape room" (MAJOR CONTENT WARNING on this link for rapey behavior), by finding a way to get out the window. After getting insulted by a pageant kid she wants to ally with in "Frank Reynolds' Little Beauties," she persuades berates the kid's sister to ally with her in less than 1 minute. She legitimately saved her and Dennis's lives in "The Gang Goes to the Jersey Shore": they've witnessed a murder, the guy who did the murder has them both at gunpoint at the beach ordering them to bury the body, and Dee suddenly throws sand at them so they can both escape. (Also worth noting how totally useless Dennis is during all of this.)
Even her supposedly incompetent-Snake method of berating people and escalating shit and being generally crude gets results... but not good results for her or anyone else. The former is how she does her own version of Dennis-like predator. The latter, well, she improvises this revenge "magic trick" almost immediately, gets even more revenge than she wanted, and desperately tries to talk herself out of everyone else's horrified reactions. Because it gets all the results she could possibly ask for... besides being genuinely liked. (For an even worse version of this revenge plot, there's "PTSDee.")
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note: she didn't plan any of this, in fact she got volunteered for the trick
The Badger model is kind of a weird thing but the show keeps dropping these bits of backstory about how Dee worked really hard to win a boxing match, to win pageants, to become a great bowler, etc. And it's always like "she really practiced and did all the things until she got good at it." It seems so out of character except the show keeps mentioning it!
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Sorting Hat Chats - A Psalm for a Wild Build
Check out @sortinghatchats and @wisteria-lodge for explanation of the system I will use in this post.
Monk/ Dex - itching for the sound of crickets is the catalysis for leaving the monastery and hitting the road. The change was emotional, and from outside it looked like it happened suddenly, but it was gradually in the making, just behind closed doors. I would sort sibling Dex as a Lion primary, and a bit burnt one. When times get uncomfortable, Dex’s emotions sweep them over and they wonder about going back. Maybe it is not the burning but a Bird primary model, making them question how smart, logical and practical they were. I think it is both. That nagging voice in Dex’s mind, telling them they need to do something bigger and important shows us the big Lion action just before the end of the book - the monk quickly picks themselves up when they find out there is no road anymore, packs a bag and goes into the wild, at this point being led by something invisible and wordless more than the need to hear the crickets. And they burn a lot after reaching the hermitage.
Dex is not a badger primary. He feels no guilt avoiding the village where their family lives, and later we get to know how much their father was important in them becoming a monk, but they do not feel obliged to stay in the community they felt safe in, neither to go back to their family while being a traveling monk. Also, the way they did their duty feels anything but badgery. Sure, people are important, and helping them is nice, and people and communities need them, but Dex feels no security and need in community bonding, building, and leaving is easy, and any bad feeling about missing tea appointments are quickly forgotten.
Speaking of their vocation, Dex’s secondary fits somewhere between lion and badger, and my heart that likes to lean on later. The way they tackle their new job, as self teaching, making a tea stand with no real fitting materials and not much knowledge was improvisational. And it does not work. They needed time and effort to get it going, and for two years this work and helping people was enough to keep their head from doubting the meaning of their life. Still, you could swing it the other way and say they are a lion secondary, because even if lions are and like to be improvisational, not everything works out on their first try and a lot of things need more work and investment, and no human being can avoid it. Not to mention getting a backpack and choosing to stroll from the woods seems quick, bold, and in theme with “this is me, deal with it or move. I will brake before I will bend”. I would say we did not saw enough to define Dex’s secondary, but we can guess and choose for ourselves what we want to see in the empty space in the mean time. My heart leans badger, but my mind stays with lion - they come and say they are changing their vocation, nothing to indicate that before from outside, no warning. For Dex, this was their warning.
Splendid Speckled Mosscap is an idealist, but I feel it would be too easy to sort them as bird primary. Mosscap have their morality all mapped out, built or felt, and they are there to get to know humans, but plot wise they are there for Dex and their emotional breakdown to be a moral and philosophical voice. We hear their opinions and thoughts, but have no idea how they came to it, apart from them mentioning robots functioning according to nature based circles, teaching Dex the definition of remnants being maybe a bit of a built idea. It is not enough for me to comfortable call them bird primary, and a bit uninspiring for the world that sees mechanical beings as sentient.
...........
Dex - Slightly burnt Lion primary (Bird Model)/ Lion secondary
Mosscap - idealist primary, not enough information to tell anything real, and especially not their secondary
#sortinghatchats#shc#sorting hat chats#a psalm for the wild built#Ten rants#ten sorts#sorting book characters#becky chambers
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Hello, Hope you're having a good day/night ahead. I'm the anon who sent that ask about the secondaries.
Hello nonny, I am having a good day reading all about Eberron's Fairhaven, painting NPC minis, and drawing train compartment maps in preparation for our DnD session tomorrow.
Firstly, the shc quiz sorts me into snake primary, and badger secondary. I suspect i may have burned and unburned or am currently burnt. i also suspect that i may have adhd.
Thank you for the information, let's see what the community can add to this *cracks knuckles* (and by this I don't only mean me, because if anyone wants to chime in, please feel free. I don't usually do this anymore, and haven't done it much in general).
The thing where the quiz says, 'all has gone to shit what do you do?' i don't know each time i imagine a hypothetical situation - i just know what to do - either by some prior knowledge or a miraculous room/situation reading
I don't actually remember the question, but it has been some years since I last took the test^^. There is a reason why hypotheticals are only useful to a certain extend, though. Real stories, preferably about small every-day stuff, are much better for sorting someone in general.
I also analyse things all the time, like all the time. its kind of a habit. I'm having a conversation? i'm analysing what i'm saying, what your reaction and answers are, and responding based on what you say.
It kind of sounds birdy, but I know a few people who do this, too, and I don't think they are all bird secondary. I do it, and I don't think I am a bird. I'm thinking more of 'learning/trying to improve social interactions', and/or 'having insecurities around social interactions' when I read it, which could happen regardless of secondaries. Could also be burning, as you said.
i'm not good at lying in the moment but if thought about at least once i can lie easily. makes me feel a liiittle icky - but not always & not if its for good reason.
Half a point against lion then, though feeling icky while lying is mostly about primaries.
Snake: I envy this secondary so effing much (at least, by the quiz's description), i want to be them! but also am in awe of how they seem to code switch shift and maintain that? and not grow tired of it? i would love to be able to do this, but i know i'm not capable of holding onto that for long, or at all.
Not feeling capable of doing something, saying it's tiring, can be burned language, where you do not feel at home with any secondarie's methods at all, and therefore they are all tiring. Or it can be one of the other secondaries admiring they do not experience in the same way. Only you can decide what it is, nonny.
But some of the notes of the description the quiz gives like, [maneuverability] i love this word there - i just - what a good word. beautiful word to describe how i sometimes feel i am & want to be.
I lack the context for the word atm, and I do not have the time to look it up. My best guess is that if you are not snake secondary, you might be on your way to acquiring a model because you admire what it represents. Or you are unburning a snake secondary. Again, you tell me, nonny.
[While a Snake secondary might find creative interpretations and presentations of the truth to be comforting and necessary] YES
I agree. Though not while talking to lion secondaries, and other people who value honesty above everything else. It is an interesting experience consciously trying to be in neutral for someone^^
I mostly just want to be this secondary, but i know i can't i'm not quick enough, or smart enough for this, it sounds exhausting and exhilarating at the same time.
OK, first things first. You do not need to be smart to be snake secondary, or quick necessarily. Shocker, I know ;)
Yes, this might be how others see us, or it might not, depending on if you are good at multiplayer or not. But in my experience, snake secs mostly do not see themselves thus. Not necessarily. We might have treasured social memories that go in this direction, but otherwise, we are just average and trying our best, just like everyone else.
Bird: I know i collect, but the quiz just makes it sound way more important than it is and i don't really do it like that - like, its not even recent info - this is info i collected when i was younger (im 20 now)
Hm, I think I do not really know what you mean by collect here. In my understanding, birds like to collect stuff/knowlegde/people/etc. not because they need them right now, not even necessarily because they might need them later, but just because it is fun, or their brain demands it.
For myself, I cannot stand to collect anything that I do not love or use, and 'I might need it later' is a pet peeve of mine. But I am not only a snake sec, I am also a minimalist, and I suspect this is far more of the latter than the former.
Let's say half a point for bird?
I don't think i build tools for specific situations either, i just go in, analyse what's going on, and just know what i can do to work on this
Sounds pretty situational to me.
i do like preparing for situations, a tiny prep a while before would help tons. Throw me in without prior warning, i'll panic a teensy bit and then adapt - by coming up with plans on the fly, but its a little stressful, but i will rise to the occasion.
Hm, maybe bird model? Although the way you say 'coming up with plans on the fly' and 'it's a little stressful' do make me think there's a bit more to the bird. Although the former can just be a phrasing issue, and the latter might be burned talk. Another half point for bird?
[When the only point of learning, preparing, or studying is because you want to? ] This i get so totally. I love learning.
I love learning, too, but only when there is a practical reason for it. I learned about group management while I was leading a group for some time. I learned about shading and colour theory when I started painting minis. I am re-learning music theory because I need it for my guitar practice, etc.
This might be just a me thing, or it might be a difference between snake and bird, I don't know.
Lion: [Lion secondaries are self-defined. Their integrity and their honesty is a deal with themselves, not others. ] This i so totally get.
A point for lion then.
[they act based on what they believe, who they are, and what they think is the right thing to do. ] not always, but yes, i do agree I'm quite direct i've been told, and honest. i can be this. and i don't mind being it - but not always - which makes me think this miight be a model? idk
Might be a model, or might be burning. I have seen this in some unburning lions I know, so could be both. But the way you phrased it ('I don't mind being it') feels more like a model or a performance to me.
I just love how lions get shit done.
Who doesn't?
like yes, go them! i wish i could do that and be less wishy-washy about it. i hesitate a lot.
Man, this reminds me so strongly of a currently unburning lion secondary I know. I give burned lion a big point for this, actually
And finally, Badger: The thought of me being a badger secondary - irritates me, annoys me, i don't want it - though i suspect i might be. i don't like it at all. i don't know why
Might be interesting for you to find out more about why you are so against it. I have the same kind of feelings about bird secondary, and though I have not come to a satisfying conclusion on it, the journey so far was very rewarding.
-My culture is quite a badger-secondary culture
Not just your culture, your family too as you describe later. Maybe it has something to do with your antipathy? ;)
[Badger Secondaries invest themselves into their world with service and support.] uhh no, i'd much rather be alone
I'd say you might be an introvert, which does not mean you couldn't be badger sec. But we count it against badger for the moment.
the quiz keeps giving me badger and i don't relate all that much i do wish it worked that way though - people you know coming to aid, reputation preceding you - the goals.
This definitely sounds like you have bad experiences with groups/communities, with being on the outside of them, etc. It also could be burned badger talk ('I wish it worked that way'). Maybe you'll find a reason for your burning if you get into it more? I wouldn't know, I am not a therapist.
[a Badger wants to show up. They want to work well and fairly. They want to achieve things honestly and stand on solid ground. ] i used to be this a lot? i still am, but its more ehhhhhh don't care, just get things done. i need it done.
Either you were unburned then and are burned now, or you had a model and it is burned now. Either way, this is 100% burned talk.
[They pour labor, time, and love into what they care about and those investments pay themselves back in time. ] No (this totally describes my mum, to an extent my dad, and my paternal grandmother by the way)
So not only is your culture badger sec, your family is, too. No wonder you have issues with this particular secondary, whether it is yours or not.
i also don't mind cutting corners - like the badger way sounds right, but also seems tiring. like, is there no better way. this - i can't- i did this all through most of school, and i'm now done with it.
This also is strong burned talk, either of a model or of your secondary.
How i deal w people: i do match their energy, and respond how i think they'd react well to, but also analysis, and observation.
Sounds fluid to me, with a nice bird model to help improve your interactions. Feels very familiar ;)
Also, if i've interacted with certain people under a specifc role, or they've seen me in a particular way for a long while - i struggle to be any way different with them, like i canNot. help.
Hm, interesting. I don't think it has to do with sorting much, though? At least for neurotypicals, putting people in specific roles and boxes is how we function socially, and fighting that requires constant effort. I think it happens to all of us all the time, and it is not a bad thing as long as you are fine with your assigned roles.
Can even be fun to play with it a little, you know? Shocking people mildly with hinting at other sides of you, and watching how they react.
Low stakes problem solving - cause secondary is the how- in game, unless i figure it out in a short while i go use the cheatsheet, i don't like to stress on just a game.
Sensible ;) And either burned, snake, or bird.
Difficult problem solving: take in info, understand everything. what do i know, how do i feel,what's the situation. if conflict between what needs to be done, and how i feel/what i feel/think is right - come to a compromise, and act. but do - if all thinky stuff fails go with gut.
You know, this rather sounds like lion to me, with the emphasis on acting and doing shit, and going with your gut. Could also be frustrated burned talk, because when nothing feels right, I at least tend to not do anything, and then after a while get frustrated and just do whatever to just do something.
that's all i can think of. Thank you, i hope this is enough for you to help me out. Do feel free to reorder this so its more helpful to you. Have a nice day! And sorry, for the long(er than i even expected) message, and for bothering you.
More burned talk, what with the bothering and all, or just cultural differences. It's not a bother; I wouldn't have said yes if I didn't wanted to crack my knuckles on this, and I appreciate you asking beforehand.
I think you are definitely burned secondary; there is just too much burned talk here for you not to be. It is difficult to say what is under it, but I get slightly liony vibes from it, or (and I am sorry to say it) also badger.
But I really do not know you enough to say if you once had a badger model and it burned because you couldn't live in it anymore and your lion wanted out, or if your badger got burned because it did not present in the right way to fit with the badger secondary expectations your family and culture had for you.
I do not know how to help you find out, or how to help you unburn your secondary. I only know that you sound like you could use a break, and I hope you get to have one. I definitely send some hugs and positive vibes your way.
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wait, what is neville's sorting?? is he a lion/badger? badger/lion? lion/lion? badger/badger? please tell me
For any of you confused: here is the system I am using ( @wisteria-lodge )
Neville's sorting is one of those ubiquitous sortings that has been around since the start, but since the original post doesn't exist anymore it doesn't hurt repeating.
Neville is a Lion primary. A burnt one for much of the series. He's bad often bad at magic, he's awkward, and severely bullied by the Slytherins and Snape.
We first see hints of the person Neville is going to be at the end of the first book, when he stands up to the golden trio because he thinks what they're doing is more trouble making. It's shakey, but he manages to do it, and is later rewarded for it.
It isn't until the fifth book that we really see Neville start to unburn. He finally finds a cause to fight for, Dumbledore's Army. We see Neville's determination to live up to his parents, and to avenge them against Bellatrix. To fight the death eaters. By the end of the book series Neville has full confidence in himself and is unburnt. He can wield the sword of Gryffindor and prove to himself that he was worthy of being in Gryffindor, and that he embodied that spirit.
(We never see the characters in the books or movies, but I think if we ever did see them that Rowena, Godric, Helga, and Salazar would all be double sortings reflective of their houses.)
His secondary is Badger. Neville is more notably sweet and kind, but he also likes working. He practices heavily in Order of the Phoenix, and he's a herbologist, which is an activity which takes a great deal of patience and hard work. Also, it was a movie-only scene, but him practicing his dancing was very cute.
I won't say he is burnt, but he doesn't think highly of his secondary. In the first book he thinks he'll go to Hufflepuff because he's a bit of a softie (everybody just hates Hufflepuffs in the books), and is blindsided when he is put in Gryffindor.
I think he wishes he had that Lion secondary like most of the other kids in his house. At the end of the first book he raises his fists and says he'll fight them, but Hermione immediately petrifies him. It doesn't help that he wasn't very good at potions and Snape is just the worst teacher. Potions class is a very precise science done in a time crunch and especially in Snape's you do not get second chances. You have to get things right on the first try.
All this to say that Neville...actually I think his secondary is burnt as well. He's running around trying to do what he can, but when everyone is constantly telling you you're bad at everything and you are the butt of everyone's joke, you're going to start to believe it and believe your methods really aren't valid. Honestly, I think that talk Mad Eye (Barty Crouch JR) has with Neville helps him to unburn. In the movie and the next book he's more confident with his skills in herbology and accepting more of his own methods.
So...
Neville Longbottom - Burnt Lion Primary/Burnt Badger Secondary, both of these unburn over the course of the series
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Sorting the Slayers: Gourry Gabriev (Initially Burnt Snake Primary (Badger Model)/Snake Secondary)
Sorting Gourry Gabriev (spoiler - he is the chillest Double Snake ever) was difficult for two reasons, one for the Primary, one for the Secondary.
First, Gourry's Primary starts out Burnt, even though it's not obvious. Gourry's family continuously fought over the artifact Gourry now carries - the Sword of Light, so he left them and at the start of the show he's just... Drifting and emulating his idea of a noble swordsman - which, tellingly, isn't Idealist (no ideals of Knighthood or Chivalry, even though they are very present in the universe, see bands of would-be heroes), but Loyalist. At the start, Gourry basically presents as a Badger, instantly taking charge of Lina while completely missing that she didn't really need to be taken charge of (for like the first 10 minutes). Notably, the moment Lina shows her true colors, Gourry adapts - just as instantly he begins treating her as an equal. There's no denial, not even a moment of resistance. You change - I change.
Another point in favor of Snake Primary is that while Gourry displays a basic level of empathy - he is generally down to help people and is the epitome of Neutral Good - he's just... Not that interested in people outside of his circle. Yeah, he'll be decent to them. Sure. But those he really cares about are right here, and the rest of the world just isn't as important. He sticks by his own through thick and thin. And as the show progresses, Gourry's Snake begins to Unburn through his relationship with Lina - whose toes he never steps on. He is always adapting to her, and is perfectly happy with that, and stays in his own brand of Neutral the rest of the time.
For Secondary, the difficult part is that Gourry is the emblematic low Int/high Wis D&D character, which makes it hard to identify a preference for methods. While often presenting as Dumb, Gourry is nevertheless keenly observant, identifying Xellos as a Mazoku well before the rest of the team (mages all!) and Word of God has it that if he had the intellect, he'd be a mage easily as powerful as Lina... But he doesn't.
And he doesn't need it to feel good in his skin. He's neither a Bird nor a Badger. He doesn't take pride in working smart or working hard. He's not a Lion, either: he doesn't take the direct way just because he can. Instead, Gourry Gabriev is the chillest Snake Secondary ever. He follows His Person and just takes in life as it comes, rolling with the punches. He fights by observing the enemy and reacting, and he's perfectly happy while His Person is happy.
While Gourry doesn't really have masks, he does very consciously allow people to project on him, playing up the stupidity just a little bit, very subtly. He also much more comfortable with the various role-taking hijinks that the crew sometimes gets up than the rest of the team. Unlike a Badger, he doesn't really have to become those things, even though that's sometimes played up for fun - it's very much "that's a presentation", even when he is spouting stock dialogue like "I have no name to give to the likes of you." It's very much not a "I have to believe this myself" vibe.
Gourry Gabriev is a "live and let live" grass snake, and he is perfectly fine with that.
#the slayers#gourry gabriev#snake primary#snake secondary#sortinghatchats#character sorting#slayers#sortingtheslayers
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Sorting Obi-Wan Kenobi
I was talking with @reds-burrow about Obi-Wan's sorting in his new show (which is super burnt), and I mentioned how I sort him as a Badger/Snake. Now that I've done a rewatch of the prequels and some Clone Wars episodes, here are my thoughts on his sorting.
Check out @wisteria-lodge for an explanation of the sortinghatchats system.
Obi-Wan's Badger Primary is less in contention than his secondary, which I'll be focusing on. The Jedi order are his community, and he lives and breathes their tradition and way of life. He's also got his smaller circle inside the Jedi Order of Anakin, Qui-Gon, and Ahsoka. His Badger Primary is why he burns so completely after the Jedi Order falls, because he's lost his community almost in its entirety.
The Phantom Menace:
There's little in this film that gives any real indication about Obi-Wan's secondary, since he mostly follows Qui-Gon's lead and doesn't really act independently. Nevertheless, at the end of the film following Qui-Gon's death, Obi-Wan is insistent on keeping his word to his master and taking Anakin as his Padawan. He doesn't demand the way a Lion might, but simply quietly announces his intention to train Anakin with or without the Council's permission. Such stubbornness sounds more like a Snake than a Lion to me, more an immoveable object than a battering ram.
His Badger Primary is obvious in his conflict with Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan, attached to his community of the Jedi Order, is a bit more concerned with following the Council than Qui-Gon. He's the one that brings up the Council and speculates about it's opinion, whereas Qui-Gon is more confident that he'll be able to turn them to his point of view (I think Qui-Gon is either a Lion/Snake or Bird/Snake).
Attack of the Clones:
Here's where Obi-Wan's Snake Secondary shines through the clearest, probably because it's where he has the most autonomy over his methods.
His investigation into the assassination attempts on Padme and Kamino is conducted using different models. He uses his Bird Secondary model to follow the clues and conduct research, and a Badger Secondary model too, in how he looks to his connections for information and outsources the investigative process. But his investigation is ultimately conducted without any clear plan, he simply follows the clues where they take him, ultimately taking him to Kamino.
Obi-Wan goes to Kamino with no plan, no real idea what's going on, and no idea what to expect. He simply waltzes in, takes stock of the situation, and goes with the flow. He doesn't come up with a cover before hand, but when presented with the information that a Jedi was expected he jumps on it, going along with the assumption that he's there to survey the troops. He's only momentarily stunned, before he quickly takes advantage of the opportunity to learn more.
Obi-Wan's scenes with Anakin also make his Snake Secondary more obvious. It could be that he's simply a rather chill Lion (especially considering Anakin is a very unchill Lion), but he doesn't engage with Anakin like a fellow Lion might. When Anakin argues, he doesn't argue back, preferring to avoid or subvert, where a Lion would be more inclined towards arguing by saying (or yelling) true things at each other. Instead, Obi-Wan tries different tactics in communicating with Anakin. He doesn't charge in like Anakin either, preferring to hold back and wait until an opportunity presents itself.
Revenge of the Sith:
His secondary is a little less on display here, mainly because he's generally reacting to events and his character rather takes a backseat in favour of showing Anakin's descent to the dark side.
However, this scene just screams Snake Secondary to me. The absolute glee with which he says "spring the trap", how he just expects that if they walk into a trap they'll be able to turn the situation to their advantage, is all signs of an opportunistic Snake. And on Utapau, when he needs to stall for time until reinforcements arrive, he simply leaps down into the hangar where Grevious is and engages the General in combat. This could also be his Lion Secondary model, which most often comes out during fights, especially fights where he's working with Anakin.
The Clone Wars:
Obi-Wan's Snake Secondary is on full display in two particular arcs in this series, namely the Zygerian arc in episodes 4x11-4x13 and the Hardeen arc in episodes 4x15-4x17.
In the Zygerian arc, once again, Obi-Wan needs to stall for time (on this occasion he needs to give Anakin and Ahsoka time to defuse the bombs), so he agrees to the meeting with the Zygerian slaver. He goes into the meeting with no real plan, simply noticing the slaver's hatred of the Jedi and playing on it to taunt him into combat. After he gets captured, enslaved and sent to the mines, Obi-Wan's Badger Primary takes a battering when he finds himself unable to help others, and he's forced to comply to prevent other's coming to harm. Compare this to the actions of Badger/Lion Katara in Avatar the Last Airbender, who, when she finds herself in a similar situation in a prison, makes a rousing speech that inspires the prisoners to action, allowing them to otherthrow the guards. Obi-Wan, in contrast, simply waits for the opportunity of rescue to arise.
A Lion Secondary would have found the Hardeen arc incredibly difficult to pull off - faking their death, assuming a new identity, and lying to their loved ones. But Obi-Wan never really struggles with this. He actually enjoys going undercover, saying that he likes playing the bad guy, and doesn't go into the situation with any real plan other than a general goal. He simply rolls with events as they come - the prison heist, being left behind, Anakin and Ahsoka tracking them down, the bounty hunter competition. He uses his Bird Secondary model in the competition as well, relying on prior skills and knowledge to face the tests. His Badger Primary and Badger Secondary model is also on display in the competition, as he immediately turns the other bounty hunters into a team to work together. (On a side note, Cad Bane is absolutely a Lion Primary. He abhors Hardeen killing Obi-Wan with a sniper rifle because he thinks it's cowardly, and saves Hardeen when Ival tries to skirt the rules of the game to kill him because it's dishonourable).
His Badger Primary also comes into conflict with Anakin's Snake Primary in this arc, because Obi-Wan is loyal to the Jedi Order above all, whereas Anakin wants Obi-Wan's loyalty to be first and foremost to him. Obi-Wan probably has a Snake Primary model he built for Anakin (because you couldn't have a Snake Primary like Anakin as your Padawan without one) , but it certainly never influences his decision making.
Obi-Wan's Snake Secondary is also probably why he gets along so well with Hondo in the show, since their shared secondaries just get along. They each understand the other in a way that makes them like the other (somewhat begrudgingly in Obi-Wan's case).
Furthermore, as @reds-burrow pointed out to me, Obi-Wan mastered the lightsaber form of Soresu, which focuses on defensive improvising, analysing an opponent's attacks and waiting for an opening to arise.
The Original Trilogy:
Obi-Wan's Snake Secondary is on full display in the OG Trilogy. He's sly, cunning, and opportunistic, with an attitude of 'let's find out'. He lies about knowing R2D2, although he did technically never own a droid, and tells Luke just enough of the truth about Anakin and Darth Vader whilst obscuring the most important information. Obi-Wan walks into the Mos Eisley canteen with no plan as to how to get them off the planet, he simply meets Chewbacca and from there buys a ride from Han. When they get confronted with stormtroopers, he doesn't fight them, simply uses his powers to make them go away.
The line 'from a certain point of view' is the epitome of a Snake Secondary. Obi-Wan tells the truth, but in such a way that it's both the truth and a lie by omission. That's not to say that Lions are incapable of lying, but Obi-Wan does it with such ease, and never really feels bad about it. It's just another tool is his repertoire for him.
Summary:
Badger Primary, Snake Primary model/Snake Secondary, Bird Secondary model, Badger Secondary model
#sortinghatchats#star wars#obi wan kenobi#once the kenobi show is finished I'll write another post about his sorting there#which is super burnt and I'm imagining will unburn#his sorting is quite complex with all these models#now I'm wondering what qui-gon and dooku's sortings are#because the interaction between the different sortings in the lineage is interesting#with bird/snake yoda#probably lion/snake or bird/snake qui-gon#badger/snake obi-wan#snake/lion anakin#and lion/lion ahsoka
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Not an ask, but a task: I want you (if you want, of course) tu sort your main characters from your book using the @/sortinghatchats system (@/wisteria-lodge has a great short guide to understand the system)
Also, I'd like to know how they were conceived (the characters specifically, not necessarily their story) and what your favorite character dynamic from your book is
thank you so much for the ask anon!! i didn't even know about the sorting hat chats system so you've just opened a whole new world for me lol
i'm gonna use both the characters from my finished book (not all of them, just the ones i would say are the 'main' ones) and the ones from my fantasy book cause there are only two of them and i wanted to see how they'll fit lol. anyways, here's how it would go:
finished book:
-león: (exploded) snake primary, lion secondary. to explain the conception of these characters i need to tell you the origin of the story first. basically, i decided i would keep a diary for a year (2017) and then make a book out of it. it ended up pretty different from real life but nevertheless, león is heavily based on myself as the main character of the book. specifically, he is my 2017-self more or less. of course i've changed a bunch of stuff of his personality (i don't think i would be snake lion for example) but still it's undeniable he's my self-insert at the end of the day. i chose that name cause it's my dad's and great-grandfather's name and i think it's a pretty cool one.
-emma: snake primary, snake secondary. she is loosely based on the crush i had back in 2017. i say loosely cause she ends up being a really vital character in the book and so i changed a lot about her personality and character; the only recognizable traces to her model are like some of her physical attributes and minor details, that's it. i chose that name cause back in the day it was my favorite name. also i was reading madame bovary and there's actually a bunch of references to that book through the names of various characters (see león for example).
-celia: (burnt) badger primary, (bookkeeper) badger secondary. every chapter in my book starts with a song with lyrics i then work into the plot of that chapter. for celia's introduction, she was supposed to be a girl getting bullied in a street i went to that year. i based her appearance and personality partially on this one girl i know and max from stranger things more or less, and ran with it. i definitely didn't realize she would become that important when i first conceptualized the bullied girl. for the longest time her name was just 'the maudes street girl'. i went for celia in the end just because it is one of my favorite names and it fits her personality.
-jimmy: lion primary, lion secondary. i know he doesn't exist but he's my friend okay? anyways i generated the songs for the chapters randomly and for jimmy's first appearance i got st. jimmy from green day and i immediately went OH. he literally popped up into my head the minute i read st. jimmy on the screen, he's literally him. i was reading / watching nana (the anime / manga) at that moment so i just visualized a guy that would fit right into the punk aesthetic there. of course his name was chosen after the song, and his real name, jesús, is also referencing a green day song (jesus of suburbia).
-carolina: (burnt) lion primary, bird secondary. carolina is a weird one, cause i conceptualized her after carolina by m-clan was chosen as the song for her first appearance, and i never really stopped to think about how she is or looks or acts? i loosely based her after cris from skam españa kinda?? at least in her fashion sense more or less. the thing is, i already have a character that dresses similarly and is heavily implied to be a choni, but carolina never really seems a choni herself. she also acts very differently after her first appearance because, once again, i wasn't planning on her being as important as she turned out to be. she's definitely the more underdeveloped character of the bunch and i'm planning on developing her for the next draft.
the book centers around the dynamic between león and emma, but honestly my favorite one is the león-celia one, i think it's very cute and wholesome. i also really like león-jimmy and jimmy-carolina, they're nice i think :)
fantasy book:
-jiji: snake primary, lion secondary. back in the day (i'm talking 2012-2013) when i was first creating my fantasy world, i made a list of all the stories in all the countries of that said world that i would get to write in the future. in there is where i first conceptualized jiji; as a young girl with strong morals that escapes the life dictated for her and her best friend to look for a better life in the fringes of society or somewhere else in the world. over the years i've been polishing her character more, but she's never stopped being that girl; that's in essence who she is. i wanted her to be like katniss everdeen; a cool strong girlie who fights for her ideals and is just a badass. as for her name, i just tried a bunch until jiji sticked.
-li: bird primary, bird secondary. li!!! li was conceptualized much later than jiji, for years he was just 'the friend' until i had to actually create him. as jiji was based around katniss, i wanted him to be more like peeta: soft, charismatic but not action-oriented. i don't think he ended up like that, as he's way more depressing and less charismatic, and he reminds me more of lloyd from harvest moon grand bazaar now ( i know, weird reference). in the end i basically wanted him to oppose jiji in their world-view: whereas jiji is angry at everything and knows pretty well her immediate surroundings but not the rest of the world, li is just contempt with it and knows a lot about a lot of places due to being a bookworm (this might be a bit self-inserty but whatever). as for his name, it's the same story as jiji's, i just tried various until one sticked lol. his name actually has some in-universe lore i'm pretty happy about so that's also nice :)
this book is all about the dynamic between them two so yeah, a pretty easy answer for this one lol.
#ask#sorry about the long post lol#and thank you again!!#these characters are like my children i love them all very much#also i didn't put all of the characters in my book cause they're like...10-15#too many#also about carolina... i'm thinking of making her either la del eyeliner or a basic twitter girl#something like that#the other characters (except for león) have very strong personalities so i think it would be nice to contrast it with mellower vibes#for carol#and li: he basically has poor little meow meow energy
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badger primary + rapid fire/actor bird secondary
Hi! I’ve passively loved this system for a couple of years now but it’s only now that I’ve discovered that you actually do real people sorts! Anyway, I am pretty sure of being a Snake primary, but I’ll have you be the judge of that.
My Dad is a double Snake, however, my Mum I think is a Badger/Lion and this obviously creates a lot of conflict between them. I really care about both of them and though me & dad understand each other better on a fundamental level, he can also be quite a harsh and manipulative person (he has the typical Snake secondary thing where he tells you whatever you want to hear until you get close to him or he’s exhausted enough to let the masks drop, and at that point he becomes quite harsh, which my Badger/Lion mum does NOT like, and she especially doesn’t like how “fake” he is), and my Mum always reacted very negatively to my behaving like him.
A Double Snake and and Badger Lion could easily have periods of looking very similar, and very in sync, and then just… circumstances change and they couldn’t be more different. That’s a tricky one to navigate. So you’ve got a bit of cultural negativity surrounding Snake secondary, noted.
So I kind of spent most of my life feeling torn because the two people I cared about the most had very opposing expectations of my personality
Definitely getting inklings of a Loyalist primary (Badger or Snake.)
my Mum’s love in particular felt very conditional even though she was always very supportive of all my intellectual endeavors.
I spent the first 18-ish years of my life with “saying whatever I need to get what I want” as my primary strategy in life
Definitely sounds quite Snake secondary (sounds a lot like your Dad’s Snake.)
and constructing a “cool, popular girl” personality that would give me enough social capital to get whatever I want.
Oooh, have we got some Bird secondary going on? Because this sounds like it could be Actor Bird. The very conscious way you went about building “Cool, Popular Girl” (even using words like “constructing”) and fact that this persona has a name, probably had a costume, and is purpose-built for a specific environment, not a specific person... sounds very Bird.
What I wanted, though, wasn’t anything particularly ambitious: I’m very conflict averse so I made shit up to avoid conflict.
I associate this with Snake and Bird, the two “I move” secondaries. They’re water, flowing around obstacles. Lions and oddly Badgers are far more likely to pick fights.
I wanted to be have strong “ride or die” friendships with people I could protect and who could protect me in turn (I first wrote “group of friends” but I now realize that I kind of struggle with groups of people - I just never have the feeling of being part of a group, just having ties with individual people, so I guess I want to be part of a group in the sense of having ties of affection and loyalty with several people who also have them with each other).
This is such heavily Snake primary-coded language, that I’m kinda wondering if that’s on purpose, and you’re looking for a specific answer from me… :)
However, because what I got from my mum and, quite honestly, the media I liked was basically “my personality=villain.” I tended to seek out other people perceived as “villains” as some way because I felt that they would accept me more easily.
I wish it weren’t the case, but you’re right, that’s a common thing. Especially if you’re a Double Snake or a Snake Bird, which I think are your two most likely sortings right now.
I also really hated people who treated their friends badly or arrogantly and tended to bully them
I mean that’s the human thing, but it’s definitely something that would bother a Loyalist (Snake or Badger primary) a LOT.
there was this one swotty girl who was constantly looking down at her friends and treating them badly, and I just decided to make her life living hell because I was so morally affronted by it.
I’d love to know exactly what your strategies were, because that would tell me a lot about your secondary. But there does seem to be a suggestion that there was a Mean-Girls-stye *plan* here, which kind of makes me think Bird.
Another friend also abandoned us and found another friend group where everyone was basically in love with him and he was using them for attention seeking purposes and I also reacted to this quite harshly.
“Abandon” is a very dramatic word to describe a friend [entering a slight fuckboy phase?] and switching friend groups.
The thing is, I also tended to abandon some people, which doesn’t clash well a Snake primary, I guess? One of my HS friend groups were really quite asshole-ish, and I ended up ditching them, but that was because I felt like they were treating other close people (of theirs, not mine) badly?
Okay. So here’s what I think is going on. You’re a Badger. Hear me out.
Yes, I think that your Badger looked like a Snake for a good long while. But you’re close to your Dad, and your Dad’s a Snake, and young Badgers will do that, look like authority figures or beloved people in their community. It really hurts you that your parents are not a united unit, not a community. A Snake would have an easier time just having separate relationships with each of them, even if they didn’t get along. Same thing with your friend that switched friend groups. That’s a very Badger way of looking at the situation. The Snake thing would be, well - he’s your friend, and it doesn’t really matter what group he’s him. But a Badger would want him to stay in the better group, the group that was better for him.
You hate it when people mistreat their group. You hate bullies (Captain America style.) That’s all Badger. You also talk about multiple, conflicting groups of friends, and that whole “Cool Popular Girl” - I mean, it’s not exclusive to Badger primaries, bit it is definitely a very common way for High School Badger primaries to present.
I had also decided to start taking school and stuff more seriously and I just kind of felt like their affection would be conditional on my bad bitch persona, got scared and ran? It was a long time ago, I don’t really remember.
This is Bird secondary thing. Getting “suck” in a persona, and worrying that people only like you / you only have value because of it.
The turnpoint came when I met my first serious boyfriend, who is definitely a Snake secondary but I’m honestly not sure if he’s a Snake or a Bird primary.
The so far elaborately constructed web of lies and reputation building that was my life led to the downfall of our relationship, because it combined with some external circumstances made trust difficult
You have a complicated relationship with Snake secondaries, but you yourself are a Bird. “Construction,” “reputation building,” the web metaphor… it sounds like a Bird. That’s just not how Snake secondaries think.
what I somehow got out of it was a deep fear of betrayal and abandonment
and possibly Burned your primary a little bit (probably another reason you’re picking Snake for yourself, Burnt Badgers look like Snakes.
and the impression that if I wanted people to love me and stay by my side, I should be very open about who I am (so that I’m sure that it’s me that they’re loyal to and not their personal image of me), and just try to be the kind of kind, morally upstanding person that people couldn’t fault for anything.
These are two mutually exclusive goals. If you’re totally honest and open about who you are (the Lion secondary thing) - then you will absolutely ruffle some feathers and rub people the wrong way. It’s a totally different approach than being the “kind [person] that people couldn’t fault for anything.” (Which is more of a badger thing.)
Forcing myself to act like this led to a plethora of mental health issues because being very open about who I am is just… not who I am?
You also just set yourself for failure. There is literally no way you could have achieved what you set out to achieve. And how is “forcing” yourself to act a certain way more open and genuine? It sounds like you built a Badger secondary model out of fear, and just sat in it for a while.
And it was very anxiety-inducing for me. Even now, when my mental health is much better and I’ve settled into who I am, I like showing off my playfulness and wit and keeping the rest of my personality behind a neutrally charming mask.
And that’s… good? Normal? That’s also very Bird. Just have a charming, Badger-flavored ‘customer service’ face that you wear as you go through the world. Go into Neutral when you feel comfortable. (Birds go into Neutral very much like Snakes do, but the change usually isn’t as dramatic.)
Also, my success until that point was based on a lot of improvisation and quick thinking, and while I kept that to a point, it also always led to a bunch of moral panic because in my head, being this kind of person is what gets you abandoned.
Rapid-Fire Bird. There’s a little bit of your Bird coming through here, in that you want a foundation, you don’t want to just do the Snake thing.
Anyway, I was a psychology major (I always liked understanding how people tick and how to get them to see or do what you want them to without having to explicitly argue with them or convince them)
Very Bird.
but I felt alienated with the “bleeding heart helping profession!!” people around me.
I am not at all surprised that the profession skews Badger secondary, and that it did not feel at all good being around all those Badger secondaries... when you’ve got such a messy relationship with your Badger model.
I eventually settled for doing research on children growing up in harsh circumstances who develop externalizing symptoms, but it was just because throughout my life I met a lot of people like that and a lot of my close people are “misunderstood” because they sometimes behave harshly due to their harsh upbringings, so I wanted to vindicate them in a way, as well as vindicate myself because I cared about explaining why people sometimes act less than morally and yet can still be loyal and worthy of love and not automatically “bad people”.
I love this for you. It seems like this would just fit into your primary so nicely. You’ve got a category of people, who are your people and you’re going to vindicate them, and protect them - especially from other people seeking to dehumanize them. It’s so Badger, but in that lovely universal way.
In the meanwhile, I kind of developed a Badger primary model, I guess, in that I do dedicate a lot of my time to helping people
… or you were a Badger all along…
and being kind and open and inviting
yeah, that has absolutely nothing to do with being a Badger primary. I’m serious. That’s just your neutrally-charming mask.
but whenever this is put to the test my Snake loyalties always always come first.
I honestly haven’t seen this so far. The only individuals you’ve talked about are your parents (who bothered you by not being a group, your fuckboy friend (who left the group) and your first boyfriend, who you broke up with.
And I also still always get morally outraged when people are disloyal to their close ones or treat them badly,
This your primary talking. (your why, what gets you out of bed in the morning)
whereas the general kindness and the work I put in towards making sure the world is a kinder, fairer place is just something that I do, no emotional attachment to it, and I don’t expect other people to do it at all.
This is your badger secondary model talking. (how you go about doing things, how you present to the world.) Both Badger, yes. EXTREMELY different.
I honestly don’t think a lot about morality, aside from the generic “be kind and try not to fuck people over unless you really have to”
I mean, you did just say. “I also still always get morally outraged when people are disloyal to their close ones or treat them badly.” I think you just must not consider that sort of thing… really morality, in some way. But Badgers get their morality from their group. Their highest moral good is to make sure the group is doing okay. It doesn’t have to be more complicated than that.
rationally constructing a system of morality or trying to arrive at some kind of internal hunch both feel kind of empty to me?
Because you’re not a Bird or Lion primary? Of course it does.
Now, as for the secondary, my knee jerk reaction is to say Bird because I’m in research, and ever since childhood I’ve always been a very logical person. I’ve eventually learned to be quite systemic in my problem solving process because I need it for research, but what I like about this career is the problem solving aspect of it, like you have a goal (for example, an effective psychosocial information or the acquisition of a certain kind of information) and you have to figure out how to get to that information. Basically the most efficient way of getting from A to B.
I make sure to be systemic and thorough and analytical because it’s the most surefire way to get things right in my line of work, but I also take pleasure in kind of categorizing and putting information in order, and connecting it along different lines. I also really care about proper methodology and not half-assing things to get the results that you want, because I think that the results that you want are the results that are accurate and useful in the real world, not the ones that make you look better.
Wait, am I a double Snake?
Okay, now you’ve got ME worried - I must have really screwed up explaining something, because how can you write something THAT bird secondary, love systems as much as you do… and arrive at the conclusion that you’re a Snake?
What I know for sure is that I absolutely do not identify with “knowledge for knowledge’s sake”, but I do have a really broad criteria for what “useful knowledge” is because I’m capable of thinking quite abstractly, so I can see the utility of almost anything.
That is very, very, very Bird. I’m starting to see the problem though. “Knowledge for knowledge’s sake” is an older phrase that owes more to the parent system than I would like, but it does essentially mean “no knowledge is wasted, the most useful way to solve problems is to preemptively hoard knowledge.”
What I am really also passionate about is presenting things in the right way. I love writing, and I love public speaking, because I get to put myself in the other person’s shoes, imagine how they will “receive” what I’m saying and then tailor my presentation or short story or whatever to lead them to the conclusion that I want them to reach. But I dislike manipulating people with this: the conclusions that I want them to reach are the ones that I personally consider accurate, not the ones that benefit me.
First thing, you sound like an absolutely incredible person, and by pretty much any metric you want to use, a *good* person. (And no, that’s not because the way you’ve written this is manipulating me. This is my little game, I’m good at it.)
What I can tell you that tailoring a presentation to an audience - that’s just a Rapid-Fire Bird who knows their stuff doing trick-shots, and I bet it’s beautiful to see. You are delivering information in a way that the audience can properly take in, because you know both your audience and your information well enough to do that, and that is incredible.
My knee-jerk reaction is always to improvise, but I feel like this makes me come off as a “fake” person if I change my mind on what I said later (I change my mind A LOT), so I try not to say what sounds good in the moment because it will bite me in the ass later and lead to a reputation of a flaky, fake person, I guess?
Not 100% sure what you mean here. Changing your mind… is just a personality trait, it doesn’t really have to do with why you do things or how you do them. I think you would call tailoring your presentations improvisation, and I really wouldn’t. It’s not improvisation, it’s just looks like improvisation because you’ve come up with a hundred different ways to say this thing, and then on the day you can pick the one that works the best. If you had to do the same thing, but not in your preferred subject matter/environment, it would be basically impossible.
But I also really pride myself on my logical and thorough assessments of situations, and I tend to like thinking things through when I get the chance for it, often postponing decisions until I’ve thought about all the eventual longterm consequences of all the courses of action I might take.
Bird.
What trips me up is my trauma-induced fixation with being “honest” and avoiding “lies”, which are more about their eventual inefficacy and worthlessness and less about their moral rightness or wrongness (and also because manipulative=bad, as my Mum spent all of my life saying). My line of thinking is, “Things built on lies or self-delusion always crash down and burn, and it is right that they do so that more stable and honest things can take place”
What are you building on lies? If anyone’s work has a solid foundation, it’s yours. And as we’ve previously discussed, even IF you were doing your mom’s brash Lion secondary thing, wouldn’t that be in a lie in itself, because it’s not your natural presentation, it’s something you need to force yourself to do?
but I also kind of use it to do shady shit - like I don’t feel morally wrong in hitting up a man in a relationship, because if he really cares about his woman the only person who’ll get burned is me and if he doesn’t I saved her the trouble of wasting more of her time on him?
This is actually a really interesting aside, because it’s you telling me how you handle a moral issue (that makes it a Primary thing.)
Is it wrong to hit on a married man? Your answer is No: either you get turned down because he’s staying faithful, and that’s your own personal risk, or he cheats, in which case he’s kind of … dehumanizing himself? And therefore you are doing his partner a favor because she can now get rid of this unhealthy member of her community. There’s a logic there, and it’s a kind of ruthless Badger primary logic.
So not sure if Snake or Badger secondary?
Bird.
P.S. After some self-reflection, I realized that I’m probably not a Bird secondary
I’m listening.
because I really hate following plans and situations where I have to rely on concrete skills and not abstract problem solving terrify me. OTOH I am very proud of my general ability to assess a situation and act appropriately.
Not sure how you’re distinguishing between “concrete skills” and “abstract problem solving.” From what you’ve been telling me, it sounds like you need the concrete skills before you can do the abstract problem solving, as in they work together.
I’m also known as the person who changes PowerPoint slides in the middle of a conference based on whoever’s speaking before her and adapting her speech accordingly, which freaks the shit out of my coworkers, so I guess any “planning” type is probably out for old me
That’s the most Rapid Fire Bird thing I ever heard. You made a plan. The PowerPoint and the speech exist. You’re just adapting them on the fly, based on previously-existing knowledge. I’m starting to think that you’re one of those Bird secondaries who is SUCH a loud Bird secondary, that it can be hard to get your head the idea that your skills are skills, and not sort of neutral abilities that everyone has.
my latent distaste towards being a Snake secondary is my burny oppressive bullshit against anything that’s not “stalwart honesty and consistency” that I’ve been imposing on myself for years.
which I really wish you didn’t feel like you had to.
Because I do love winging it and just saying whatever’s the most situationally appropriate thing regardless of how much it reflects me and I’ve just been treating any kind of play acting like a recovering alcoholic treats drink so I no longer even remember how it feels anymore lol.
I hope you find a way to play with your Actor Bird, at some point. One more little thing before I sign off though - thinking of actions as “situationally appropriate” is a very Actor Bird secondary thing to do. Snakes don’t go that big. Snakes think - what response do I want from this person, in this moment, and how do I get it? They also constantly reset. Snake secondaries have this “seducer” reputation because they generally are better one-on-one, or in small groups. Even Snake secondary actors will talk about the way they perceive the whole audience as one “person” … it’s all very interesting, but a very different way of approaching the world than the way you do.
#submission#shc#sortinghatchats#badger bird#badger primary#burnt badger primary#bird secondary#bird secondary vs snake secondary#actor bird#rapid fire bird#wisteria sorts#sortme
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I'm going to sort my family from most recently dead to furthest.
Grandma - Badger Snake. I thought maybe she was a double Badger, but I think she modeled Badger sec because it was expected of her, but she was traditional and involved in her church community, so Badger primary. I say she was a Snake secondary due to her general mischeviousness, go with the flow attitude, and doing things like once tricking me into getting a flu shot by paying for two.
Mom - Double Bird or Bird Badger. Would do a deep dive on any subject she found interesting and once she decided that something was true, good luck changing her mind. She could possibly have been a Badger sec due to building communities wherever she went. Used to clash with her a fair amount, but she also could have been a burnt Lion primary.
Grandpa - This one is the hardest due to him being gone for so long, but he could be the double Badger out of the bunch. Also community oriented.
#snake secondary#bird secondary#badger secondary#badger model#idealist primary#built secondaries#external primaries#no wonder i clashed with my family when i got older and started to come out of my bubble
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Bean Delphiki SHC Sorting
I'm sorting Bean from Ender's Game. I'm going to mostly be focusing on the book Ender's Shadow, since it's a retelling of Ender's Game from Bean's perspective. A basic explanation of the system that I'm using by @wisteria-lodge be found here.
Bean would be a villain in any other story. He has low empathy, and he's a Burnt Snake who doesn't care about anything but his own survival. He grew up homeless on the streets, and when he finds a gang he immediately tells the leader of it, Poke, to kill a bully.
He's even treated like a villain in-universe. He has to tell people that he's not a machine and that he has emotions. A teacher believed that Bean was lying to them no matter what he said, because of his Snake secondary. Petra tells Bean that it's a relief that he has feelings, or that he "thinks it's worth pretending to have them, nobody's sure about that yet."
He has a strong Snake primary, even though it burned before the beginning of the book. He says that it's a mistake to think of anyone but himself. He doesn't understand it when people are homesick, or why anyone would be nice to him without an ulterior motive. When a nun saves him from the streets and gives him a home, he doesn't trust her, or love her. He was on guard all the time, and he didn't think that he was safe. When he left, she hugged him, and he couldn't understand why. His only goal is to survive, and he doesn't care what he has to do to achieve it. He wants to "kill someone who is helpless, just because they might pose a danger later".
He unburns his Snake primary as he makes friends that don't leave him or die, like his brother Nikolai and Ender. He liked Nikolai even though he was "nothing special, except to me", which is a big improvement over Bean not understanding why hugs exist. He puts Nikolai into the army with him because of nepotism (and his Snake Primary). He says that Ender gives his life meaning, and that serving with Ender is its own reward.
Bean has a very strong Snake secondary. He crawls through the air vents to spy on the teachers, he pretends that he's a drunk guy's son so that he can talk to him alone, and he uses his power as the smallest kid to be able to get soup from the homeless shelter. He says that it feels terrible to be cornered. If he "thought of something that might get him some advantage later, he did it." Soldiers, at least in Battle School, where they tend to have more agency than in the real military because they're being trained to lead armies, are practically made for Snake secondaries. Bean says it himself. "Soldiers shoot in the back, lay traps and ambushes, lie to the enemy and outnumber the other bastard every chance they get."
When he first hears about Ender (a Badger Snake), he doesn't understand him at all, which is only made worse by his low empathy and his Burned Snake primary. He doesn't understand why Ender's practicing with people who can't do anything for him, and he sees Ender as more human than he is. The teachers are suspicious of Bean hiding all of the things that he's not supposed to know, so to throw off their suspicion he decides to act like their favorite student (Ender). He creates a Badger Primary model so that the teachers would like him more. Granted, this could be Bean using Actor Bird from his Bird secondary model, or face-switching as a Snake secondary. He's creating a persona for the teachers, which seems like he might be modeling an Exploded Badger. He wants to "become what they hoped their perfect commander would be" and "make himself into the kind of child that the teachers would trust, would rely on". He realizes that the only way to advance in the military is to please his superior officers, fitting into the system and thinking in ways that they're comfortable with.
His Badger Primary model becomes less Exploded and something that he likes using for himself throughout the book. He says that everyone should be "learning from each other, sharing information and ideas." They should work together to "explain what they were thinking, why they did what they did." This could also be from his Bird Primary model, but given the focus on cooperation, I feel safe using it as a Badger primary example. He "used his inside information to give himself the illusion of belonging to the community." He slowly changes his worldview to match Ender's, culminating in Bean not wanting to kill the villian anymore. He "hadn't realized how much he needed the honor of others until he finally got it."
He also has a Bird Primary model. He "never fully trusted his own guesses." He "acted on them, but always kept himself open to the possibility that his interpretations might be wrong." He wants "as much control over his own future as possible" (which could also be his Snake secondary). His Bird Primary model is probably immature, since he calls people stupid a lot, and part of his character development is Bean realizing that other people's perspectives are valuable. He seeks out other people's opinions because "it was hard to break free of his own assumptions. One mind can think only of its own questions; it rarely surprises itself."
He also has a Lion Primary model, which means that he's collected them all. He gets emotional pings (explained by Bean unconsciously noticing things, or survival instincts). He follows the pings when he notices them. His "heart was still jumping; something is wrong". I considered that he was a Lion Primary, but he's so Snake that he couldn't be anything else. He also acts like a Glory Hound Lion sometimes. He purposefully created Ender's army so that Bean himself would have the greatest chance of success. He's doing it more for Ender to notice him than anything, but one of the teachers does say that he has a vain streak.
Bean stands back and watches before jumping in most of the time, indicative of a Bird secondary model. He even has a list that he follows: "know, think, choose, do." He's prideful about how he doesn't let his feelings influence his decisions. He wants "order, finding out how things worked, getting a grasp on the world around him." This could also be his Snake secondary, but they generally don't want order (even though it could also be his Bird Primary model). He "had to get more information in order to have some hope that his analysis was correct and that his choices would be valid." He says that he should "follow the script" in a conversation, indicative of an Actor Bird (and his autism).
He feels proud of himself for making bold decisions, which could be a Lion secondary model. He has fun goading bullies. He tells a teacher to "swallow hard and back down", and that he needs Bean's cooperation more than Bean needs his. He does all of that for Ender, not for himself, but he feels cowardly for choosing to run away from everything.
The differences between Ender and Bean (and Badger and Snake primaries, as well as high and low empathy) are obvious at the end of the book. When Ender defeated the enemies, he was absolutely horrified, because he'd committed genocide and he felt like he was worse than Hitler. Bean thinks that "the death of Poke was more important than the death of an entire species that I never saw." He "didn't know them, so how could he grieve for them?"
#bean#julian delphiki#bean delphiki#ender's game#ender's shadow#shc#sorting house chats#this boy has so many models#I feel like I overused quotes#especially long sentence quotes#but I love this series so much lol
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I just want to express gratitude to you for how you handled your latest ask. The question of what our real self is, the version of us that we are when we are in crisis or the version of us when we are at our best is what I've been thinking about for years. And it caused me real harm. Let me explain. I belong to a 'tough' country where you are constantly probed for stress resistance, any personality trait is only considered 'yours' if you don't allow it to be changed by anxiety/stress/fear at all. People will say things like 'Yeah no, if you were logical/smart/ you'd perfectly logical during a *insert stressful situation here*. But the thing is, everyone is irrational during stress, it's human nature. Also, the factors of stress are often decided not by personality but by our role in society. That's why women/disabled people/minorities are considered overemotional - there are just more stress factors in their environment but more privileged people don't see them and dismiss them as 'emotion'. And it brought real harm to my understanding of self and other people too. Think of it that way - when all trees stand with cut branches, you no longer can tall the differences between trees. So don't type yourself by negatives - stress, depression and etc. Type yourself by what you do best. It's actually more logical too because the world only cares about you bring to the table, not living up to some kind of ideal. We all are cogs, in a good sense of word. A cog is defined by its function, not malfunction. And even if it's malfunction you should be determined what it is for and it's important for the whole mechanism.
(This is in response to this post.)
Thanks for sharing your take on this! You make some very good points.
In fact, you've reminded me of a conversation I recently had with someone who I had guided through the sorting process. They were having a very Burnt Secondary day, the type of day where they would say they don't feel like they have any function, a cog without spokes to follow your metaphor. They were trying to ask if I was sure that they were a Badger Secondary and not a Snake because of all the shortcuts they had been taking in their schoolwork, so I had to remind them that they were using up all their energy fighting their depression. Of course, they didn't have energy to do the hard work that they usually would have wanted to do. I pointed to what they did on good days and the activities they do for fun or for relaxation. And then I pointed to their regrets, to the way all these shortcuts stressed them out. It was understandable that they didn't feel like they were living up to a Badger Secondary, but when they're feeling healthy, it's clear that that is what they use.
Idioms that claim you see people's true natures when they're cornered have always sat wrong with me. The truth is, when you corner someone, all you get is cornered behavior. That is never the whole picture of who someone is.
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FX Pose Typings
Blanca Evangelista
ENFJ 2w1 so/sp
Double Badger
Elektra Wintour-Evangelista
ESTJ 8w7 sp/so
Double Snake
Angel Evangelista
ESFP 7w6 sp/so
Snake-Lion
Lil Papi (he raises the bar so high I ain't gon get no boyfriend lol)
ESTP 7w6 so/sp
Badger-Snake
Damon
ISFP 6w7 sp/so
Badger-Bird
Lulu
ESFP 7w8 sp/so
Snake-Lion
Candy
ISTP 8w7 sp/sx
Double Lion (very loud double Lion)
Pray Tell
ESTJ 6w5 so/sp
Burnt Snake primary - Snake secondary
Lamar
ESFP 8w7 sx/sp
Snake-Lion
Stan (that mofo from season 1, coward shit)
ISFJ 9w1 sp/so
Bird primary
Judy
ESTJ 6w7 so/sp
Lion-Snake
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