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stop-breaking-my-heart-dragonage · 11 months

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I said I wasn't going to get started on the topic of Aveline ruining Carver's chances with the guard but I lied okay, it's Carver Hawke defense hours.

Here's the thing; it doesn't matter if you believe Carver was or wasn't fit for the guard. That's a different debate that I'll get to. What matters is Aveline's in no position to tell the guard not to accept his application. Why does she think that's her right to judge whether or not he's fit?

Carver should've had the chance to prove himself one way or another. If it turns out he's not a good fit, then let him fail. Let him learn from it.

"Oh but failure could mean lost lives-"

Aveline doesn't get to talk shit about failure and the people. Plenty have died on her watch yet she still believes she's a good guard and Guard-Captain.

"maybe Aveline's protecting him, Carver could die while on patrol-"

Carver could die working in the Bone Pit, or serving as a templar, or when he's running around with Hawke. Carver could trip and fall down a set of stairs and die. In fact, he can die in the Deep Roads, somewhere he wouldn't have to go if the Hawke's weren't desperate.

Either Carver fails as a guard, or more likely, he succeeds and proves himself worthy of it.

But let's be real, Carver probably kept getting rejected due to being a Fereldan with a past of smuggling/mercenary work and Aveline only reaffirmed the decision, either because they asked her what she thought or she stuck her nose in unprompted.

But what irritates me is that she admits to telling them not to accept his application, and then has the balls to call Carver too proud to take up a trade or find another line of work.

Carver tells her, "And who would take on a Fereldan apprentice? Maybe in another year I could work my way up to pissboy." He has a good point here. Aside from the guard, the only other place Carver could work and use his skillset is with the Templars. Or go back to mercenary/smuggling work.

And Aveline doesn't even have a real answer for him. No suggestions, no encouragement, nothing. Just "Fine, let's crawl down some holes. Good bloody luck for your sake."

Also, if you do the Mark of the Assassin DLC in Act 1-

Aveline: You should see if any of the noblemen are looking for new men-at-arms. Carver: Are you trying to get rid of me? Aveline: It's a role with some autonomy. A good fit with your training and... tendencies. Carver: After serving King Cailan? You want me to suffer some poncy git who needs two servants to wipe his own ass? I'll find my own way, thanks. Aveline: I wish you would.

You wish he would?? Aveline, he was trying to find his way into the guard, a position he'd make a good fit for, and you helped deny him of it because YOU didn't think he would be good enough, I just-

If I haven't made it clear yet, I firmly believe that Carver would've made a great guard. He wants to help people, to be a protector. He's loyal, and despite what Aveline claims, he can follow orders and take his duty seriously. We see him do incredibly well with the Grey Wardens, after all. If he were a guard, he wouldn't have to go down into the Deep Roads with Hawke, and I think he would've been okay with that! He's so hurt and bitter when you leave him behind because that effectively tells him, "I don't need you." Carver's spent the whole first act telling you he wants to go on the expedition aka that he wants to be needed.

But if he were a guard, he would be needed elsewhere. He'd be in training as a recruit. He'd look after Leandra while you go. He wouldn't be backed into a corner with no income and only the templars left as his chance at forging his own path and providing for his family.

He doesn't get that opportunity, though.

By the way, if he becomes a warden, you can get this banter:

Aveline: I'm glad you found a place with the Wardens. Carver: Well, it's not the city guard, but it'll do. Aveline: Carver... it wasn't the place for you. Carver: No, it's all right. It is. It cost a lot, but I get it. I really was a bit of a tit those days, wasn't I? Aveline: Well...

This banter makes me want to scream.

Aveline's just... she's so insistent that she's right. She's someone who will double down rather than entertain the idea that she's wrong and it's not just with Carver and the guard, it's with everything. The "my beef with Aveline" list gets longer and longer every time I replay da2, I swear.

Say what you will about Carver, whether you think he would've been a good fit or if Aveline's right and it wasn't for him, he was denied a chance and it cost him so much in the end. He either dies, or he joins the templars where he deals with Chantry's bullshit trying to brainwash him with "mages aren't people" and "magic is a cancer in this world", or he's infected with the blight and becomes a Grey Warden, forced to serve the rest of his life fighting darkspawn, tormented by voices and nightmares.

I will never not be bitter about this.

#dragon age 2 #da2 #dragon age #carver hawke #aveline vallen #aveline critical #oh and also forever bitter that hawke doesn't have the option to talk to aveline about this #because listen my hawke would be on this #carver would be annoyed and all 'i don't need your help >:[' but that's not gonna stop ed from turning on Big Brother Mode #this is just one of many reasons i can't do the friendship path with aveline #i hate the thought of doing rivalries for all my other companions but i feel like aveline's rivalry route is the only chance to shake her #of her unwarranted over confidence and make her realize that she's not this lawful good 'i stand for all of us' guard captain #she still stands with me in the end but at that point i wouldn't be surprised if she was just doing to because she still feels she owes ed #for getting her outta fereldan and into kirkwall rather than because we're loyal best friends y'know?#she's certainly not doing it for the mage rights #but anyway i never miss an opportunity to defend carver #that's my baby brother and i love him

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kaltacore · 2 months

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i've never heard this line before because i don't usually bring aveline along and man. this is. surely a take to have about fereldan refugees in darktown

#also this line is nowhere to be seen on her dialogue page on dragon age wiki. that's probably why i didn't know it existed #this is. honestly so bad. i don't even know where to start #dragon age #aveline critical

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anneapocalypse · 1 year

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On Aveline’s Core Value

Disclaimer: This post is necessarily going to be critical of some of Aveline’s actions. I want to say upfront that my intent isn't to bash Aveline, but as someone who likes her and finds her interesting as a character, to explore her motives and understand her better. That said, if that’s not for you, feel free to scroll on by!

Also, warning for mention of sexual assault.

The same traits that make Hawke's "essential" companions stick by Hawke no matter what are also their greatest character flaws. I love this and find it utterly fascinating.

Aveline’s core value is loyalty.

I would argue that she values loyalty even more highly than law and order. I think loyalty is the primary trait she admires in her first husband, Ser Wesley. Aveline isn’t particularly religious herself; what she sees in Wesley is a man who believes in something, who has dedicated himself to a cause with absolute certainty. Aveline craves certainty and order in her life, and hates feeling doubt and confusion, something that comes up both in her short story “Aveline” and in her post-“Night Terrors” apology quest, “Doubts That Linger.”

She says Wesley was “a good man.” We don’t really have much to go on firsthand, since all we see of Ser Wesley is him menacing apostates fleeing the Blight, and then dying. But notice how Aveline responds to the menacing! “Dear, they saved us. The Maker understands.” Wesley’s duty as a templar is less important to her than showing appropriate deference to the people who have proven themselves allies. In my most recent playthrough, I rivaled Aveline for the first time ever, and I think it’s fascinating that in a rivalry, Aveline’s attitude toward Hawke is very much that she owes Hawke, rather than particularly liking them.

As a member of the guard, Aveline’s beef with Captain Jevan isn’t that he is incompetent, too soft or too hard on crime. It’s that he’s selling out his own people. It’s not merely that he is unlawful; it’s that he is disloyal that really grinds Aveline’s gears. Her own term as Guard-Captain is marked, not by a decrease in violence or crime generally, but by higher safety standards for the guards themselves. Her main point of pride is not that she has made Kirkwall safer but that she has made the Guard safer. She’s happy to let mercenaries like Hawke handle the various gangs that stalk the streets at night, and never indicates that she thinks this should be her jurisdiction, instead remarking that she doesn’t make her men “fight in dark corners.” So… what is their job, exactly, if not making the streets safe?

We also know that Aveline by her own admission has aided the templars by turning over apostates. Yet she never does so to Hawke or any of Hawke’s mage friends. In this regard, she’s similar to Fenris; Sebastian at one point broaches the subject of telling the templars about Hawke’s mage friends, to which Fenris says, “Work it out with Hawke”; it’s not that he disapproves, but that he refuses to betray Hawke. And if you take Fenris along for “On the Loose” and let Emile go, Fenris will rat him out to Meredith, so we know he’s willing to turn in mages in general. Like Fenris, Aveline is consciously making an exception for Hawke and Hawke’s friends.

Three years into Aveline’s tenure as Captain, it is suggested that, horrifyingly, she may have been dragging her feet on investigating rumors of sexual assault by her guards. This is particularly ironic as Aveline calls Isabela a “selfish little shit” for holding onto the Tome of Koslun the whole time—a fair criticism, except for the fact that had Aveline not been more concerned with protecting her own than making Kirkwall safer, the murder that was the catalyst for the Qunari invasion might never have happened. Isabela was responsible for the Qunari being in Kirkwall in the first place, but Aveline also bears a share of responsibility for that situation ending in violence.

This is why it makes sense for her to approve if Hawke lets Castillon go just so Isabela can get his ship. Despite Aveline’s long-running tension with Isabela, by Act III she considers Isabela to be one of her people. As she says to the Arishok, “Oh, no. If anyone kicks her ass, it’s me.” I think when she finds out about the tome, she’s angry not just because Isabela is responsible, but because in keeping it a secret she placed her own interests above everyone else’s, including her own friends; she was disloyal to them. When Isabela returns with the tome, she proves her loyalty, and Aveline notably softens on her in Act III. So Hawke refusing to defer to Isabela’s wishes here makes Hawke lawful, yes, but it also makes Hawke disloyal.

And in the end, Aveline will fight at Hawke's side under nearly all circumstances, because she is loyal above all else.

#aveline vallen #aveline critical #dragon age meta #dragon age 2 #blunders of thedas #realized this post was basically done and i'd been sitting on it for weeks

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sapphim · 11 months

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it is SO striking that during magistrate's orders in act 1 aveline is JUST as gung-ho for extrajudicial execution as everyone else in the party. she absolutely definitely approves of killing kelder and disapproves of remitting him to a corrupt justice system. but three years later in demands of the qun when it's HER guards being accused of assaulting elven women suddenly she's like "well damn that is SUPER not my problem." it is soooooo #lean in #girlboss of her, honestly. if I thought bioware nemesis was INTENDING to say ACAB here I would be impressed, actually! but alas, lmao

#aveline critical #I just think that the next bioware muscle lady should commit SEXY crimes instead of cop crimes OKAY #im banging pots and pans together outside bioware hq shouting ''sexy crimes‚ lads! SEXY crimes!''

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ma1eficar · 1 year

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my hope for da:d is a hot warrior woman that isn’t basically a cop

#ma1eficar thoughts #cassandra critical #aveline critical #aveline i was pretty meh on but i wanted to like cassandra she could've been so interesting yet i just found myself frustrated #with how she was written

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glamfellens · 1 year

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Psst share your thoughts on Aveline?

hiiiii i hate her and here is a list of why:

she is like "i dont let my guards fight gangs in dark corners" and instead constantly enlists hawke's support in. doing the guard's job for them. ok aveline

then proceeds to complain that hawke is a vigilante

complains that hawke "poured into a pot that is too full" and "validated the fears of every anti-fereldan in kirkwall" as if this is something hawke did wrong by bettering themselves rather than the xenophobia of kirkwallers

the way she talks to isabela. the aggression, the slut shaming. shes fucking awful to her

she picks and chooses what the guard enforces and what it turns a blind eye to. like i said before she wont have her guards fight gang members but she will march into the qunari compound despite escalating tensions and demand the return of elves who murdered a human for assaulting their sister (after the guard dismissed the elves, so they took justice into their own hands).

aveline calls merrill talented but stupid

tells anders that she's only handed a handful of mages over to the templars and basically says that because she has had to deal with an abomination (anders) then its lucky that all she has done is that.

theres more but its 5am lmfao

#aveline critical #aveline negative

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becauseanders · 10 months

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sometimes i genuinely forget aveline actually kind of sucks in canon because in my refusal to believe the kirkwall crew aren’t all best friends with each other, i always write her to her fullest potential

#dragon age #dragon age ii #aveline critical #sort of #once again i write dragon age better than bioware does

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nightwardenminthara · 1 year

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aveline's quest for act 3 is such a letdown like its to show how corrupt the templars have become, theyre literally trying to overthrow the guard and secure more power in the city

but her way of proving shes not corrupt is having her politically powerful friend attend a staged run in with her husband who is also her underling and he gives Hawke an obviously rehearsed speech saying shes not corrupt?? and like thats it and then theres no repercussions for that

would be interesting to at least have it so you can "fail" that mission and the templars DO take over the guard?? would give her more stakes in the final conflict as well i think

oh edit: oh yeah we find out that this specific instance is set up by jeven bc hes out for revenge but throughout the entire act theyve been hinting that the templars want to take over the city guard and are just waiting for an excuse. and likeeee aveline isnt really helping her case

#dragon age critical #aveline critical #i guess lol

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crossdressingdeath · 1 year

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Doesn't Aveline also dismiss the investigation into the murders that eventually leads to Leandra's death?

Yep! She does! More specifically she says she'll investigate if the Templar looking into it finds proof that the murders are connected, despite finding out if things are connected being part of a fucking investigation. Would the guard have figured out what was going on fast enough to save Leandra if Aveline had actually had them look into it instead of demanding the solution be dropped in her lap before she lifted a finger? Maybe, maybe not. But she made the conscious decision not to do her job and fully investigate the murders of multiple people under her protection as guard-captain, and that would have weighed on a good guard-captain who actually gave a damn about the job. Instead if Hawke blames Aveline she just says that people always blame the guard when bad things happen and refuses to even acknowledge that she actively refused to investigate.

#dragon age 2 #aveline critical #asks #anon

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persephoneggsy · 11 months

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well, made a tier list: dragon age companion edition

naturally, this is all in good fun, i don’t think less of people who like characters that i don’t because i’m a normal person, etc. etc.

#tallis wasn't in the template i used but she's in 'feed to an archdemon' in case anyone is curious #dragon age #in all seriousness i understand why people like the characters in the bottom two rows #they just do nothing for me or actively piss me off in game #so just to be safe #loghain critical #varric critical #anders critical #aveline critical #isabela critical #solas critical

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merrilldidnothingwrong · 2 years

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So, just going to bring something up: Aveline did more to bring the qunari situation to violence than Isabela did. Yes, Isabela is the reason the qunari came to Kirkwall in the first place, but after that, every instigation against the qunari came from chantry inspired zealots, and Aveline. Yes, Aveline did relatively little compared to Petrice’s horrific campaign, but what she did added up.

When the qunari delegation was kidnapped and later murdered, what did Aveline do to the guard who let it happen? She assigned him to the wall. The same thing she did later to a guard who raped an elf woman. If she had done anything to actually rectify the situation, such as at the bare minimum imprison the above guards, or turn the first guard over to the qunari, the situation would have been far better.

Instead, she barely did anything, then charged into the qunari compound to demand that they turn over 2 elf converts who had killed the guard who had raped their sister, exacting justice when she refused to. The Arishok took them under his protection, and Aveline’s pick-and-choose method of applying justice lead to him attempting to take Kirkwall in the name of protecting his people. - Mod Alistair

#dragon age #da2 meta #da2 #aveline critical #tw rape #the qun #the arishok

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stop-breaking-my-heart-dragonage · 11 months

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Okay I thought I was done but apparently I'm not. I need to talk more about this banter you can get during the Legacy DLC between Aveline and Warden Carver because it makes me want to scream.

In my last post, I talked about how Aveline had no place telling the guard to refuse Carver's application, regardless of if he was "right" for the job or not. But I believe he would've made a great guard, and getting that job not only would've provided for him and his family during a desperate time, but would've prevented him from either fate of becoming a warden or a templar. He was unfairly robbed of a chance to prove himself because Aveline believed he wasn't right for the guard.

This is one of the banters I brought up but didn't go too in depth about. At this point, it's been between 3-6 years since Act 1, depending on if you decided to do Legacy in Act 2 or Act 3, and every line here is important.

Carver's response to Aveline saying she's glad he "found a place" with the wardens is so telling. Not being accepted by the guard is still on his mind after all this time. He wouldn't bring it up if it didn't still bother him, and implies that he still would've preferred the guard over the wardens.

Which... yeah. Listen, I'm a dedicated "Carver joins the Grey Warden" player. I don't like leaving him behind to become a templar, and I certainly don't like him dying. For me, the Grey Wardens are the best outcome he has. It’s where he seems the happiest and finds the most fulfilment, and it fits well with how I play my Hawke. But it obviously has some tragic issues.

Like the fact that becoming a Grey Warden only delayed his inevitable death within the Deep Roads. Eventually his Calling will come, and Carver will go back down there and fight until the darkspawn eventually kill him. I'm sure that's not traumatic to think about given he was a soldier at Ostagar and then watched Bethany die at the hands of an ogre. Oh, and there's the whole nightmares and voices thing.

Carver didn't choose this life for himself. It was either this or death, but a "what if?" still lingers in his mind about the city guard.

Something Aveline ruined for him.

And continues to ruin.

Aveline: Carver... it wasn't the place for you.

You hear that? In the distance? That's me screaming.

I must reiterate; what makes Aveline believe it's her place to tell Carver whether or not the city guard was right for him? Why did she think she should get a say in whether or not the guard takes him? What's made it HER call?

And still, after all this time has passed, she believes it wasn't right for him and she's unwilling to consider otherwise. Maker forbid she do some reflection and question if she was in the right for interfering at all, too!

Carver is standing right there before her, proving everything she said about him wrong, and she just doubles down. There's no reason to say this to him unless she's trying to remind him of his place; he's a Grey Warden, and she's Guard-Captain of Kirkwall's city guard. But c'mon, Aveline, he's hardly a threat to your precious guard anymore given the whole dedication to killing darkspawn thing he has now.

Maybe if you paid more attention to the threats within your guard, Kirkwall would be a safer place with less murder going around? Just saying!

But isn't that how it's always been? Aveline putting him in his place, making sure Carver remembers she's always outranked him?

Carver: Did you approve my application? Aveline: I can't make you a guard, Carver. Carver: We were both soldiers. Why won't they take me? Aveline: I was an officer. And I follow orders. Carver: [laughs] No you don't. Aveline: I also think of others before myself. You seem tired of that, and that's dangerous. Carver: Just when it's not my choice. You told them not to take me, didn't you? Aveline: Yes.

That he should remember who he's talking to?

Carver: I'm surprised you still travel with us, Aveline. Aveline: Carver, don't. Carver: You're ever so busy with the guardsmen. It must be a burden to slum with the refugees. Aveline: It's oddly comforting that you insult me like I'm family. Carver: That wasn't... no, I didn't mean that. Aveline: I know. But you should be glad that's how I took it.

That she's in charge?

Aveline: Your form's sloppy, Carver. Stiffen up or the darkspawn will take your blade. Carver: Right. I'll keep that in mind. Aveline: And you're angry, why? Carver: You didn't fare any better than I did the last time we faced darkspawn. Aveline: If they take your blade, people die. That's not happening again. Stiffen up. Carver: Yes ma'am.

Oh, and she used to spy on him [and Hawke].

Aveline: I don't like some of the people you've been associating with, Carver. Carver: Talk to my brother/sister. He/She's the one in charge. Aveline: Maybe, but I know you get around. This city's full of people who are dead set on ending badly. I don't want to see you end up the same way. Carver: Would asking you to stop spying on me help in the least? Aveline: No.

That's their banter.

But sure, she's glad he found a place in the wardens. I don't think she's being ingenuine when she says that, but I think it's a little more complicated than a mere "congrats on doing well, I knew you could do it."

But Carver's response? Oh Maker's ass. It actually hurts me.

Carver: No, it's all right. It is. It cost a lot, but I get it. I really was a bit of a tit those days, wasn't I? Aveline: Well...

I... what can I even say?

He accepts it, but you can tell it hurts to do so. It DID cost a lot. More than Aveline will ever understand. And it doesn't matter now! He can't become a guard now anyway, so what would be the point in him disagreeing with her? Carver acts as the bigger person here because he does get it, even if Aveline doesn't.

But it's that last part... that last damn part... Don't be alarmed, that screaming you hear is still me.

Here's the deal; Carver acknowledges that he could be an ass back in Act 1. Hell, he acknowledges it IN Act 1. For example, when you talk to him after finding your grandfather's will, he's an ass to you about Bethany no matter what you say.

But y'know what? You can be the biggest piece of shit to him and have Hawke literally call him a "lazy brat with a chip on his shoulder," and Carver will still be the one to be apologetic for what he said and attempt to explain his feelings.

"Brother/Sister... I feel... I don't know. It's like Mother taking things out on us. She was just scared. I don't have a place in the life she's trying to bring back…"

Carver can be an ass, but he's aware of that and actively tries to change his behavior. If you bring him and Fenris with you on the Mark of the Assassin DLC, there's a moment where Carver says, "You still don't like me? I've tried to change." And if you bring Varric, he once again acknowledges that he used to be an ass.

BUT... that being said. If you don't remember, "I really was a bit of a tit those days, wasn't I?" is referencing back to this conversation in the barracks of Act 1:

Hawke: This must be a very different pace from serving King Cailan. Aveline: It's just one more change, though. The real end for me was Ostagar. What about you Carver? You were there. Do you feel something similar? Carver: No. Aveline: All right, then. Bit of a tit, your brother.

Now, I've already expressed my beef with Aveline over insulting Carver in the middle of the barracks just because he doesn't agree with her view point on Ostagar... but consider the fact that Carver says nothing. He just lets her insult him without a complaint! Carver Hawke, who tends to complain! And he says nothing!

Not only that, but he actually internalized that insult enough that years later he's able to repeat it back to Aveline word for word, and all she has to say is, "Well..."

This isn't the same thing as him reflecting on his past behavior and acknowledging his flaws. This is Carver accepting a snide jab Aveline made that hurt him because apparently he was wrong for not wanting to discuss any trauma Ostagar left him with as openly as she does.

Oh, and don't forget that any other companion you brought along dogpiles on, too!

Carver: No, it's all right. It is. It cost a lot, but I get it. I really was a bit of a tit those days, wasn't I? Aveline: Well... Varric: No shit. Fenris: Insufferable. Isabela: Legendary. Anders: Maker, yes. Sebastian: I've heard as much. [If Hawke has a humorous/charming personality] Hawke: Spoiled, annoying, thick-headed, brattish little nitwit of a... oh, have we stopped?

Y'all ever wonder why he's so on edge or hostile with the other companions?

Also, I have to point out that Merrill is the only companion who doesn't say anything in agreement if she's there. In fact, across all their banter, Merrill's never been rude or insulting toward him. All she does is ask him if he's talking dirty to her and compliments him on what a great sworder he is. It's pretty obvious why Carver develops a crush on her, c'mon.

But to wrap this up-

This banter strikes a nerve due to how telling it is about both characters involved.

Carver has grown and done what he can to improve himself, but there's regret that lingers, a longing for a better life he could've had if given a chance. Maybe he would've failed, maybe he would've succeeded. But there's nothing he can do now, so he looks forward, just as he's always wanted to do. He's a damn good Grey Warden who wants to do right.

Aveline remains stagnant. She hasn't changed, nor has she improved, and maybe she would if she could figure out how to dislodge her head from her own ass. She still believes she was in the right to tell the guard not to accept Carver's application despite knowing the Hawke's were desperate and that Fereldan refugees couldn't find work. She knew Carver's a skilled soldier who fought at Ostagar just as she did. The guard wasn't the place for him so she's in the right to deny him any chance. Aveline knows best.

And y'know what, I think all I have left to say is...

Fine, Aveline. You're right. It wasn't the place for him.

Carver was too good for your city guard.

#dragon age 2 #da2 #carver hawke #aveline vallen #dragon age #aveline critical #okay i promise i'll shut up now and stop picking on aveline and find something else to talk about #even though my beef list is still incredibly long but we'll save that for another day since i'm just so salty about her right now #and i just have a lot to say about carver and how wronged he was like i know it's just a few bits of banter but put the bits together #and they tell a whole story y'know? in case it wasn't clear carver's one of my favorite characters in da2 #and so much about his banter with aveline gets to me #again it doesn't matter if you think he was right for the guard or not my point is that aveline had no right to block him #from a potentially great job ESPECIALLY after all the hawkes did for her... y'know like helping her get outta fereldan #and getting into kirkwall and helping her expose jeven for being a corrupt bastard that led to her promotion as captain #sure aveline step on everyone's backs and hands and then wonder why they aren't climbing as fast as you #carver hawke deserved better than this #aveline got an easy promotion to guard captain and a sexy new husband and never had to face real repercussions for her mistakes #and all carver got was the taint in his blood #he and merrill never even had a chance to get together and i'm not okay with that >:[

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