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listles-s · 1 month

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man laios and toshiro's/shuro's dynamic is incredibly compelling to me on multiple levels

when you look at them, you can see the cultural and personal barriers that drive almost every single aspect of their relationship, both positively and negatively. laios is incredibly outspoken and driven by his passions, which he expresses freely even in the face of annoyance and/or criticism- he's allowed to be as authentically himself as he pleases, and it's this drive that allows him and the others to survive as long as they have, especially due to the fact that these passions and interests are intertwined with his skills as a dungeon diver. toshiro, in contrast, is incredibly reserved, not only due to his eastern upbringing but also his status as nobility- a combo of cultures that both demand that one save face, to avoid conflict at any cost, even at the expense of one's own feelings and individuality. this, in turn, has made toshiro the perfect samurai, as he's politely-spoken, agreeable, and an honorable, skilled man. both are also incredibly devoted to falin on different levels, having come to accomplish the same mission of her rescue despite drifting apart from the party.

on the flipside, it's these same strengths that cause them to clash- laios is outspoken but unable to truly decipher the emotions of others, leading to a lot of false assumptions and frustration from those who interact with him. toshiro is stoic but to the point of complacency, leading to a aggressively neutral disposition that's ushered by the needs and wants of others, rather than himself. neither man truly knows where they stand with the people important to them in their lives, and hold the ones that they do know how they feel with a fierce admiration expressed in ways that aren't always traditional.

in the end, they both share a growing feeling of isolation from other people that comes to a head when they meet again in the depths of the dungeon, and they both have different ways of coping with the frustrations that arise, seeing the other as only the things they have seen face to face.

it's laios' ability to express himself emotionally without consequence that sparks jealousy in toshiro, leading to a physical fight born out of miscommunication and envy. while toshiro is a driving force in the conflict, it should be noted that the actual fight is started by laios, breaking the dam of indirect communication through force. nothing is more direct than a slap to the face, and it's only after they start hitting each other that toshiro's true feelings come to light.

however, at the end of it all, toshiro is the one who stops torturing himself, listening to laios and giving him the bell, allowing laios and his party entrance into his homeland should they need it, and ultimately giving him support in his mission to defeat the dungeon mage, albeit in his own way. despite it all, they're still good friends with a conflict that boiled over, but came out the other end with a slightly better understanding of each other. the fight was painful for both of them, but it was a necessity for their dynamic to improve, and for them to be made aware of their faults and improve as individuals as well.

but also, if you think about it, their dynamic is literally just this

#dungeon meshi #delicious in dungeon #laios touden #laios dungeon meshi #toshiro nakamoto #shuro #shuro dungeon meshi #character analysis #anyways toshiro haters with surface level takes get the hell off my lawn boy #i hope you know this entire character analysis was born out of the realization that i'd seen this dynamic before in a different light #and i thought. man. what is the funniest comparison i could make here rn. and i'm still right abt it btw #oh yeah also of course the autism read is still there #as an autistic person myself they don't read at all like neurotypical v autism. they read a LOT more like autism v autism #you know how people with autism either get along REALLY well with other people with autism or repel each other with a force #yeah they're basically that. to me #reading toshiro as autistic with the immigrant lens btw makes him even more compelling to read that way #but that is an analysis for another time #man i missed writing these #dungeon meshi spoilers

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ellaphnt · 1 month

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Shuro’s status of nobility has been brought up a few times when discussing his fight with Laios. I’m sure there’s credibility to the argument but the way it’s been used makes me go, “huh??”

I’ve seen his upbringing used in a negative context, usually to flatten his reasons for fighting with Laios. “oh he’s used to people listening to him so he’s never met anyone who doesn’t do exactly what he says” or “he’s never been exposed to anyone new or any new perspectives and that’s why he hated Laios”. I don’t think these opinions are salient in fan spaces but I saw it enough times I wanted to talk about it.

I feel like we just, forgot that Toshiro is a foreigner? The only poc in the party? And never interacted with gnomes, dwarves, and halffoots since they don’t live in the east? (well, the last point depends on how much you’ve seen from the Adventurer’s Bible)

Compared to everyone else, he probably had the MOST exposure to new people and experiences. And yet he was able to, best he can, quickly assimilate and harmonize with everyone in his new party. Regardless of what he thought about them, it seemed everyone else thought he was amicable. As a poc (and East Asian specifically), that’s mission accomplished.

With all that effort into making himself culturally digestible, it’s no wonder he resented/envied Laios. He put in all this effort to learn their status quo, to not offend the new people he’s meeting, only for Laios to not give him the same consideration. Both of them were socially inept in some way, but only one of them felt the need to do something about it. It’s important to note that their fight was a turning point for Laios too - he realize he had to be more aware and present for his team.

So Toshiro didn’t want to say no outright because it might set back the bonds he’s trying to form. Confrontation is hard, confrontation in a new country is harder. He settles for “close enough” because hey, it’s not that big of a deal. Their opinion of me is way more important than obtaining respect for myself. I’m the foreigner. This has the consequence of making him a pushover, but I digress. He seems to identify himself more as a foreigner than nobility.

And that had to do with separating his identity! The identify he has at his house was kept VERY separate from the one he has with Laios and co. He doesn’t want Laios’ party to know that he is nobility. He doesn’t even care that they call him by “first name”, albeit butchered. He never mentioned the retainers to them (since Chilchuck had to ask who they were).

The retainers are people he’d rather keep at a distance due to their connection with his dad. This might be why he joined Laios’ party solo given the opportunity. But as we see in the image below, they followed him into the dungeon ANYWAYS. You can’t convince me he wanted them to do that. They watch from a distance, disregarding Toshiro’s independence. They don’t always listen to him, they do what they think is best for him, which means they actually follow MAIZURU. To her, his status as their young master is very important, and therefore he needs to be waited on hand and foot. It’s not that he’s used to people doing stuff for him, it’s moreso Maizuru does it regardless.

What drives both identities is an inability to assert himself. He don’t think highly of himself (living under his father’s shadow) and it shows in how people treat him. With Laios and others, he had the opportunity to shape a new identity, but because Laios was the one that introduced him, he and everyone else just accepted the misconceptions. I’m sure Toshiro noted his surprisingly strong influence on his team, something he hasn’t achieved.

With his retainers and Maizuru specifically, she doesn’t put faith in his decisions. She tsked at the fact they went to save Falin, but obeyed anyways because he’s never asserted himself before. (Reminder that assertion is him on his knees requesting their help - the hierarchy of his upbringing does not feel ingrained in him. Giving me overly respectful and considerate vibes, the silly guy)

So he CAN do it! He CAN shape how people see him if he is able to open up a bit more. Rather than his nobility, it’s moreso that he’s never trusted anyone to open up to in the first place. He doesn’t fit in back home. He’s distant from Maizuru, he’s distant from Hien. He’s distant from his brothers and parents. He basically never had friends until Laios. This is his first friend too!!!

He finally opened up to him, and that’s going to pave the way for his character development in the future. He now has someone he can trust, someone to put his faith in, and someone to teach him how to communicate better. By airing his resentment, now all that’s left is that envy/admiration. He’s going to learn from that.

Edit: just because I like keeping things together, here’s more discussion about this post :P

#oh my god I did not expect this to be so LONG #hopefully this is the last of my thoughts for a while #I didn’t even touch on other factors affecting his character!!!#thank goodness everyone else has those covered #there’s some great analyses out there #I love when a character’s overarching story is about friendship #and the struggles with the nuance of interacting with people #dungeon meshi #delicious in dungeon #toshiro nakamoto #shuro dungeon meshi #laios touden #shuro

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monstertidbits · 1 year

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like i hate shuro so much but. you ever think about how he admitted to being envious of laios? how he wished he could be as genuine, as sincere as laios is, and connect deeply with the people he truly cares about, like falin? he is envy of the man who is everything he is not; the man who came to this island of his own accord, to chase his own dreams, unlike shuro who was sent by his father basically to figure out what would satisfy his dad enough to make him worthy of being his successor. and there he meets laios, a man who left his home and his parents' expectations of himself behind to go figure out where he could belong. they are on two entirely different paths, and it's not so much their personalities clashing as it's their upbringings and the effects' those had on them. and laios admires shuro so much, and loves listening to his tales of foreign lands; he couldn't fathom what a man like shuro could possibly be jealous of him for. but shuro, despite having the more experience of the two, is the one who is narrow minded, unimpressive in his way of thinking and approach to the challenges he faces. and laios baffles him time and time again, so different than any other man he encountered so far. it makes him so annoyed at times, maybe because he sees in laios what his father sent him off to discover in himself, but he couldn't put his finger on it quite yet. the thing is, when it all came down to putting themselves out there and shuro being truthful, it ended in fondness, not contempt. and laios can't see it himself, but those closest to shuro recognized the change that man evoked in him. and for that, if nothing else, shuro would always be grateful.

#im insane #dungeon meshi

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nyandaah · 1 month

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I don't know how to articulate my thoughts on it consicely (as usual, hence why I rarely ever write posts here anymore), but ever since this week's dunmesh ep I can't stop thinking about That scene between toshiro and laios and how it's been talked about as a piece of representation of the neurodivergent struggle.

I've seen those panels countless times before the anime got to it, and I can't understate how Real of a thing it is that we're seeing through laios- that pain and frustration that comes from having the rug pulled under you in being told that been getting it Wrong the whole time and nobody's bothered to point out the donkey tail pinned on your ass.

but I think that's only the first half of the statement, and the way people talk (and don't talk) about toshiro does the moment a disservice.

seeing how people talk about it before getting to the scene itself, it ended up catching me off-guard how much of a Person toshiro is. he's always talked about as the strawman or the figure representing neurotypical society- the one that others us.

I see where it's all coming from, he's not a likeable character to most of the fandom for reasons I won't hold anyone against, but again- he's an important part of the picture that dunmesh paints of the nd struggle.

I find it absurd to portray toshiro as a representation of the 'average'. being both of royalty and of a culture that has instilled upon him his own values and expectations when it comes to socialization. it's why the inclusion of his retainers (especially maizuru) was a brilliant story decision; alongside laios', we get to see HIS social ineptitudes and how central they are to HIS character.

like. a major point of grievance many of the audience has with toshiro is his rose-tinted 'romance' with obviously-uninterested falin. I get it, especially if you've experienced that type of engagement with an unwanted pursuer. but dear lord if that doesn't perfectly parallel him with laios as a fellow Socially Inept Man.

it hit me as much as laios hit me when he said he envied our boy's sincerity. because that's a true and often less talked about part of the neurodivergent struggle(tm)- the difficulty to express your feelings. just like the other end of the spectrum, it hurts yourself as much as it hurts others.

as someone whose brain problems often manifest as social anxiety and feeling like i'm either unable to or unworthy of expressing how I feel, I envy laios too.

tl;dr- there are two characters present in that scene in episode 17.

#dungeon meshi #laios touden #toshiro nakamoto

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fallloverfic · 1 month

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Me: I read/watch Delicious in Dungeon for The Plot The Plot (spoilers for S01E17: Harpy/Chimera; CW blood and injury):

And this episode we have the absolute best problem: THERE'S SO MUCH OF IT alkdjaljda

I always loved this bit in the manga, with Kabru using logic to point out that Toshiro's frustration, while valid from a legal standpoint (and debatably from an ethical one), doesn't make any sense because he'd have done the same thing in Laios' shoes. Kabru defending Laios :3

Kabru being supportive of Laios more T-T The soft looks. Love them so much.

There's just something very compelling about how Toshiro is holding his hips in this shot alkjdlajda

I know Toshiro was miserable during this but they are really cute together T-T Poor Laios wanting to be friends and being very bad at it, which is a total mood.

Kabru protecc :3333 I just love seeing so much of Kabru's strategic mind at work this episode. He's always thinking and planning something and I love it.

This shot was just really fucking good. In the manga, Kabru's slightly cropped out of the panel, but the way Trigger like fully defines his musculature is nice. Poor Falin :( Is okay, she gets her revenge and kills him back roflmao

Blessed Plot TM.

Just Them TM. Themmmm. So good.

Couples counseling goes swimmingly alkdjaldja Also I know that Toshiro is holding Laios' leg so that Laios stops kicking his hip/ass but also that leg grab alkdjaldjalj

MEANWHILE THE BABIESSS. Just love them T-T Kabru just being like -very modest about his own abilities-, learning for future combat situations, and also, "This man is insane and dangerous." aalkdjaldj

I want it noted that this is Kabru looking at Laios, and while obviously the idea is to focus on Laios' obsession with monsters and the danger that poses were he to become lord of the dungeon, I keep think about that slo-mo pan-up shot and how beautifully Laios is posed here. Just Labru thoughts.

So soft for each other, these two. Frustration, aggravation, annoyance, pain, but also envy and softness. Toshiro's little, "That's the part of you that I envy." just kills me. Lots of Toshiro softness this episode. His Japanese VA did an excellent job showing his softness for Falin. Also Laios' constant YOU NEED TO EAT SOMETHING kept getting to me alkdjaldja

THEMMMMMMM They end meeeee T-T "I'm glad we got to chat" just ahhhhhh

I don't think Laios is going to forget you any time soon Kabru aldkjaldjalj Bless the animation of Kabru he is so beautiful and just ahhh

This episode was so fucking good. Looking forward to next week :3

Other delicious Plot:

The Plot in Episode 3

The Plot in Episode 7

The Plot in Episode 9

The Plot in Episode 11

The Plot in Episode 13

The Plot in Episode 14

The Plot in Episode 15

The Plot in Episode 16

The Plot in Episode 17 (you are here)

The Plot in Episode 18

The Plot in Episode 20

The Plot in Episode 21

#ダンジョン飯 #delicious in dungeon #dungeon meshi #dungeon meshi spoilers #delicious in dungeon spoilers #fallfthoughts #laios touden #falin touden #labru #kabru of utaya #toshiro nakamoto #delicious episode

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nemesis-is-my-middle-name · 1 month

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i don't know maybe it's the translation i read but i guess i always thought it was made fairly clear that shuro never legitimately hated laios so much as he resented him for being able to be the way he was. much like laios (albeit for very different reasons) shuro's affect is frequently commented on by others to be strange and at a mismatch with the prevailing culture around him, being very reticent to the point of the part where he tells the girl he likes that he likes her being when he Proposed. quite a few characters say something to this effect! shuro was raised in formality and stoicism and i think has a tendency towards not rocking the boat even besides that, and now here's this guy who breaks every one of his rules and he makes it look so easy. it's like a two-pronged frustration of "doesn't this guy understand that you can't just do that" and "fuck, what would it feel like to be able to do that." of course he gets mad! it's frustration, but it's also envy.

#the nemesis speaks #after their fight they're very chill/friendly and in the nightmares chapter laios literally says something to the effect of #''i thought we worked this out already!'' when dream shuro shows up. so he does consider that fight to be Working Things Out #&that like. imo makes it pretty clear that shuro's dislike of laios was never like inherent? it was just another product of him not-#-being able to say clearly when he likes or doesn't like something. trying to keep a lid on that pot until it boiled over #once the air had been cleared and laios was aware of it- i mean the relief of that honesty must have been-#-kind of fresh air to shuro atp regardless after not saying anything for so long.#& i think you can't bare that much of your soul to another person without becoming friends at least a little bit #plus all of shuro's actions after that chap and his demeanor towards laios are much warmer in general #idk where i'm going with this i guess tl;dr it's not even that shuro hates laios' autistic traits it's that they're like-#-out of place socially in opposite directions and shuro dislikes how unfamiliar laios is but also kind of wants to be more like him #this is beyond just the fact that the final line of their fight (in the translation at least) was quite literally #''that's the part of you that i envy''

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whisperthatruns · 7 years

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In lovely blue blooms the steeple with its metal roof. Around the roof swirls the swallows’ cry, surrounded by most touching blue. The sun rises high above and tints the roof tin. But in the wind beyond, silently, a weathercock crows. When someone comes forth from the stairs of the belfry, it is a still life. And though the form is so utterly strange, it becomes the figure of a human being. The windows out of which the bells resound are as gates to beauty. Because gates still take after nature they resemble forest trees. Purity, too, is beauty. From within, out of diverse things, a grave spirit emerges. So simple, these images, so holy, that one often fears to describe them. But the heavenly ones, always good, possess, even more than the wealthy, virtue and joy. Humans may follow suit. Might a person, when life is full of trouble, look up and say: I, too, want to be like this? Yes. As long as friendliness and purity dwell in our hearts, we may measure ourselves not unfavorably with the divine. Is God unknown? Is he manifest as the sky? This I tend to believe. It is the measure of the human. Deserving, yet poetically, we dwell on this earth. The shadow of night with its stars, if I may say so, is no purer than we who exist in the image of the divine.

Is there measure on earth? There is none. For the creator’s worlds can never contain the clap of thunder. Because it blooms under the sun, a flower, too, is beautiful. In life, the eye often finds creatures to call more beautiful still than flowers. Oh! I know this well! For to bleed in body and heart and cease to be whole— does this please God? The soul, I believe, must remain pure, or else the eagle will wing its way to the almighty with songs of praise and the voice of so many birds. It is substance and it is form. Beautiful little brook, so touching you seem as you roll so clear, like the eye of God, through the Milky Way. I know you well. But tears stream from my eyes. A clear life I see in the forms of creation that blooms around me because I do not compare them unreasonably with the lonely pigeons in the churchyard. People’s laughter seems to grieve me—after all, I have a heart. Would I like to be a comet? I believe so. For they have the quickness of birds, they blossom in fire, and in their purity is as children’s. To wish for more is beyond the measure of human nature. The clarity of virtue also deserves praise from the grave spirit that blows between the garden’s three pillars. A beautiful virgin must garland her head with myrtle, for to do so is simply her nature and her sensibility. But myrtle trees are found in Greece.

When a person looks into a mirror and sees his image, as if painted, that is like the Manes. The human form has eyes, but the moon has light. Perhaps King Oedipus had an eye too many. This man’s suffering seems indescribable, unspeakable, inexpressible. When the drama presents it so, so it is. But how is it with me? Am I thinking now of your suffering? Like brooks, the end of Something as vast as Asia is carrying me toward it. Oedipus, of course, suffered like this, too; and certainly for the same reason. Did Hercules suffer as well? Of course. Did not the Dioscuri, too, in their friendship bear pain? As Hercules fought with God—that is suffering. And immortality in envy of this life— to divide these two—that, too, is suffering. But it is also suffering when a person is covered with freckles— to be completely covered with freckles! The beautiful sun does that, for it draws out everything. The path seduces the young with the charm of its rays, like roses. Oedipus’s suffering is like a poor man wailing that he is deprived. Son Laios, poor stranger in Greece. Life is death, and death is also a life.

Friedrich Hölderlin, “In lieblicher Bläue” (“In lovely blue”), trans. Glenn Wallis (x)

#friedrich holderlin #glenn wallis #in lieblicher blaue #in lovely blue #poetry #translation

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