Not to say either of them is right here, but what's wrong with the ice cream guy? I haven't kept up with the show proper in several seasons, so I'm probably very out of touch.

He is The Villain of ML in my heart.

His magic ice cream is wildly inconsistent. It's Soulmate Ice Cream! Except when it's Just Friend Ice Cream! Well, until he ONLY gives ice cream to lovers, NOT good friends who have fun together! But sometimes he gives ice cream to couples that DO break up! What are the rules? WHO CARES, CERTAINLY NOT ANDRE! I can't even put stock in his ability ACTUALLY being magic when it's constantly contradicting itself. I'm pretty sure he's just convinced himself that he has magic when he doesn't and his ego is easily bruised if anything pulls him out of his fantasy.

Plus he inexplicably always blames Marinette every time he's akumatized, no matter how far he has to stretch to do so. Once when she didn't even interact with him directly!

The first time because she went home without eating his "Soulmate Ice Cream(tm)" by herself as a 5th wheel. Because, what, her leaving meant his ice cream "failed"? Wasn't the point that two people are supposed to share the ice cream for the magic to work? But because she was like "no thanks", he swears revenge on her???

The second time because he was so invested in shipping two strangers that he got mad at Marinette for...being seen in public with one leg of the ship? After Ladybug had made it perfectly clear that she and Chat Noir were NOT a couple and so Chat Noir has the right to have fun with whoever he wants to???? Because "my ice cream is never wrong"?!?!

It didn't seem to work out for Lukanette or Adrigami so I don't know where you get the gall to even continue to make that bullshit claim, but OKAY.

And the third time, HE had the audacity to blame HER for making him "lose faith in ice cream and love" when he REFUSED TO SERVE HER! He flat out denied her and Chat Noir ice cream because he doesn't make "good friend" ice cream despite them BEING ON A DATE, and then has the GLUTEN FREE AUDACITY to be mad when tHEY are UPSET by it!

Oh but that wasn't a problem in "Wishmaker" when it was Marinette sharing with Luka, but sure, make up new things just so you can get mad about it, that makes sense.

I also have a personal vendetta against him for being the one to out Marinette's feelings for Adrien to Adrien. After 4 seasons of build up, this is how Adrien finds out? Horrible, vile, detention, exile, I hate him. I mean I've been done with him since "Heart Hunter"/"Miracle Queen", but they just loooooove to PILE IT ON.

Like, wouldn't it make more sense for Andre to have been the one person to see through the Love Square? Even if he didn't fully understand it, since Ladybug = Marinette and Chat Noir = Adrien, wouldn't it just make sense for Magic Ice Cream to be able to see past that because They're Soulmates(tm)? But he's only invested in ONE of the pairings, not even like two of the pairings that are seemingly unrelated. He is NEVER as passionate about Adrienette as he is about LadyNoir...but why???? Why is he so blase about Marinette going with Luka or Adrien being with whoever when he can't even handle Chat Noir LAUGHING with a girl who Isn't Ladybug?

They never even have fun and explore what he'd do if he caught a Ladrien date, would he be angry at Adrien like he is with Marinette, or does he just have it out for her specifically?

At this point I'm just convinced he's only so invested in the LadyNoir pairing because he's publicly endorsed them so much and if they don't end up together he'll be outed for being a Hack Fraud. His fixation on two teenagers becoming a couple as a grown adult and falling to pieces just because Marinette has other ways to have fun instead of eating Ice Cream she doesn't even get to choose the flavor of...

Yeah, throw him in jail Chloe.

“OMG! CHLOE TREATS HER FATHER SO TERRIBLY!” 😣

And I understand that!

However, Andre’s a grown adult man, not a freaking baby nor a little boy who needs his father’s approval anymore.

He’s the one who brought her into the world, enabled Chloe, spoiled her rotten, GAVE HER he privileges (the same ones Thomas claims she had), and set a bad example for her. HE put himself into the situation, so HE’S the one that has to deal with it. If you ask me, he needs to grow a spine and do his job as a father instead of expecting everyone to pity him for the bad mistakes that HE made lol 😂

Miraculous and Redemption

You know, I think I understand what my issue is with this show’s stance on redemption. It’s not specifically who gets the redemption, even the hypocrisy of who does or doesn’t get redemption/forgiven is only one part of the issue.

It’s specifically how they treat the characters who don’t get redemption.

I have seen, in media, where terrible characters who’ve done terrible things get a redemption, and the mean characters, who are just mean, don’t change at all. That’s fine! People are complex, some change and some don’t, some have done horrible things and some are just school yard bullies. It’s fine to showcase this, I mean hell, in the Owl House, Boscha was still an asshole in season 2, and this was past the point that characters like Lilith were forgiven (Lilith isn’t really terrible in Season 1, she just has done a lot worse than Boscha)

Miraculous’s massive issue with this, however, is that the narrative/the authors treats those mean characters as worse than those characters who’ve done horrible things.

I mean, what other media has one of the creators say that some high school bully is comparable to Trump when her literal rich, corrupt, politician father is right fucking there?

Usually the media where a terrible person is redeemed and the mean character isn’t doesn’t treat it as a moral issue. It’s not “oh well this person can’t change” or “oh this person is even worse!” It’s usually “they’re mean, and that’s annoying, but oh well”. That media never treats the character like Satan incarnate, or treats their meanness compared to actual villainy as a moral issue. When characters are around them, they aren’t treating that mean character as literal scum compared to the former villain, the narrative doesn’t treat them as more than an annoyance or, for lack of better words, “small fry”. I mean, while Owl House acknowledged that Boscha was still a prick in season 2, they didn’t act like she was worse than Belos.

Miraculous treats Chloe and Lila, some petty, mean teenagers, as the literal devil compared to other characters. Lila is a master manipulator who somehow convinced 3 people she’s their daughter and has a trillion disguises! It doesn’t matter that that twist came out of nowhere, and it makes it a little weird that this teenager has multiple disguises that she uses around the city apparently, one where she looks like a 20 year old, making people theorize she’s an adult because how on earth is she smart enough or resourceful enough to do this. Chloe is a villain comparable to Gabe, even when she was a hero! Her backstory doesn’t justify any of her actions, but for literally everyone else, we are going to justify their actions! If they don’t do that, they’ll just sweep their actions under the rug completely! It doesn’t matter that she’s consistently being manipulated by the fully grown adults around her, she’s terrible don’t think about it! She neglected her father somehow (???????????????????) so it’s fully justified to send her off with her abusive mother! We aren’t even going to acknowledge that Andre literally had a part in raising her and her turning out this way, because somehow he did no wrong! And what sucks is that it’s succeeding at making those characters appear that way, because some fans are completely genuine when they say that Gabriel is more sympathetic than them. I mean, if you frequent the Reddit (which you absolutely shouldn’t, one way or another it will melt your brain), you’ll consistently see character rankings with Gabriel, Lila, Tomoe, and Chloe in the same category. Somehow the show put the bullies in the same categories as the literal abusive terrorist and his helper in these people’s eyes. You will constantly see these literal teenagers be put on the same category as adults who have done infinitely worse. Even Andre, who is a corrupt politician and terrible role model and literally RAISED CHLOE… is “woobified” by some fans, even going as far to say that Chloe abused him! Nevermind how that would even be possible when she was like, 5-7 when her mom left! I can’t point my fingers at the fans for this though, because the show goes out of its way to place all of its sympathy on the adults, even when they don’t deserve it, EVEN WHEN THE PAST WRITING LITERALLY PAINTS THEIR ACTIONS AS BAD

(It also doesn’t help that the fully grown adult’s actions are all forgiven but god forbid you’re terrible as a teenager, then you’ll get sent off to live with your verbally abusive mother while your basically deadbeat father adopts your half sister literally right after wiping his hands of you)

I will talk about the hypocrisy in redemption at some point, and how bias and forgiveness is handled, but godDAMN, this sucks

Every child deserves a parent but not every parent deserves a child. Give it a few months before we see Zoe start to act like an entitled brat .

If you want to know more about my thoughts on Andre : check out my post " Why Andre is a horrible father and badly written character" on my tumblr.

Please stay respectful

Lmfao did André really say that he should fix the mistake he made with Chloé and by that he didn't mean accepting the consequences for her behaviour - a girl that he raised - and trying to teach her to be a better person but he actually decided to send her with her mother and he would take care of his wife's nicer daughter. And I thought Audrey is supposed to be the bad parent here. They're both awful. "I do not want the kid I screwed up with when I raised her all by myself she's no longer my obligation I will now take this kid that other man raised with my wife who's much better and take the credit for this good kid that's how parenting works". Kids are not vegetables, you can't just throw them away when they go bad and buy new ones... I just... How do you even take this show seriously?!

Collusion spoilers

If you're honestly going to look me straight in the eyes and say that Andre is the "victim" for spoiling Chloe rotten, then congratulations. You've not only shown how you're more willing to attack a spoiled child than the adult who enabled them, but you've shown that you have no qualms defending shitty parenting as long as the story validates your salt. Also, since Gabriel is the one who gave Chloe the police bots for her coup, anyone who's going to defend HIM in the end while saying Chloe is the irredeemable one are only proving my previous points.

"B-BUT CHLOE IS MEAN AND SHE HURT PEOPLE-"

I don't care. Her own actions, as heinous as they may be, doesn't excuse how adults handled her and given that Andre and Gabriel either enabled or even HELPED her become a megalomaniac, saying either of them deserve more sympathy than her is a good indication that nothing you say should be taken seriously. And before you cry about how I'm attacking Andre, he's the mayor. He's not some poor sap. He has power and plenty of privilege to throw around. So, to see him try to play victim for failing to be a parent is nothing short of putrid and anyone who takes him seriously are either desperate to validate their opinions or are legitimately braindead. And NO, him resigning doesn't change that.

Andre disowning Chloe is such a disgusting cop-out, oh my God. And not even for the writers, no, I’ve talked enough about how much the writing of season 5 is really badly thought out. It’s a disgusting cop-out for Andre.

We’ve seen that he apparently had dreams to be a film director and to make the world a better place, but had to give it up to “fit in” with his family. He became the mayor literally just to impress Audrey and hates his current life because of her and his “selfish, heartless daughter”. So now he wants out. And he gets out by... giving it all up.

And, yes, if there are toxic people in your life, people who make you give up your dreams to pursue them and further destroy your life by disrespecting you and treating you like shit, then drop them. But this isn’t just his wife that he could divorce, no. This is his daughter we are talking about.

Chloe, no matter how terrible she is, is still a product of his own shit parenting. If he didn’t want a heartless and selfish daughter, maybe he should have actually put effort into raising her rather than just throwing money at her every time she cried. The fact of the matter is that she’s like every other child on the planet: she didn’t ask to be brought into the world. It was his own decision to have a child, but when it got too hard, he just gets to give up??

And we’re supposed to side with him as the victim?

My brother in Christ, it is your fault your daughter’s a fucking asshole. It is your mess to fix and your problem to deal with. You can’t just say “well, I tried” and drop her like that. What happened to parental responsibility? To taking care of your goddamn kids and helping them through their childhood? Andre didn’t try for a second to help his daughter become a better person and just put his own shortcomings on her “nature”.

And what’s worse, is that he gets “awarded” custody of Zoe. He gets rewarded for being a shit parent by getting another kid to fuck up with. I feel terrible for Zoe. She’s still a kid and deserves at least one loving parent, not some idiot who failed at both jobs he was given throughout his adulthood: being a mayor and a father. It isn’t fair to Chloe, and it especially is not fair to Zoe.

Why are they being punished because Andre Bourgeois can’t take responsibility for a goddamn thing in his life?

Chloé Haters: "CHLOÉ FANS ARE ABUSE APOLOGISTS!"

Also Chloé Haters: (sympathize with her abusive dad) 💀

It's pathetic that this show hates Chloé so much that they give her ABUSERS more sympathy than Chloé herself. The same goes to certain fans (looking at you @hufflepotato18). If Chloé is supposed to be responsible for her actions than the parents of this show should be held accountable for their shitty parenting.

After seeing the situation in Confrontation and Collusion, I think that ultimately, stopping Chloe from running roughshod over everyone at school has always been down to Andre. As we saw in Confrontation and Collusion, even when someone puts their foot down and refuses to follow through with Andre's demands (or Chloe's, whatever), it only stops that one specific thing from going through - then the person is fired and someone else has to be the puppet or risk getting fired.

Like, for as much flak as Damocles got over Derision, I don't think that him refusing to suspend Socqueline for that last week would ultimately have done that much good. Then Mendeleiv would have taken over and immediately caved to her superior's demands, as we saw in Collusion. And even if she hadn't, well, she just would have been fired and replaced herself.

Ultimately, Damocles and Mendeleiv were just the scapegoats - they had no actual power. It all came down to Chloe using her father's power to get her way, and Andre being fully willing to exercise that power in ways that appear to be legal in Miraculous Paris, but aren't in the real world.

“MLB Spoilers: Initially, I had planned on giving Zoé the benefit of the doubt, but after what Andre and Audrey did to Chloé, forget it. Andre KNOWS Audrey is abusive and yet is perfectly fine with sending Chloé to live with her anyway all while admitting Zoé is his favorite. And he declares custody over her even though legally he wouldn't be allowed to do that. And in the end, Chloé gets booed and jeered while leaving Paris in disgrace. What kind of fucked up ending is this???

It's official, Zoé was intended to be Chloé's replacement, nothing more. This was the final nail in the coffin for her, I'm done giving Zoé chances. Too much of the narrative has suffered just to make her work and Chloé... oh god Astruc went too far this time.”

From what I’ve know, the fandom mostly dislikes Andrey for reasons related to Chloe (bad mother etc.), but what are YOUR reasons for not liking her?

Cuz she's an asshole? On top of being qualified for the Top 3 Never Should've Been Parents to Begin With Award (next to Gabriel and Tomoe), she's an elitist dick waffle without any on screen talent to back it up. So she's a fashion critic. So what? What makes her qualified, have you seen her outfit? And I just have a special hate boner for people who look down on the service industry, so she already wasn't winning any awards for "firing" people left and right.

Meta-wise, I hate her because she just confuses things. "Despair Bear" makes it out that Audrey abandoned the Bourgeois when Chloe was small, though at least old enough to remember, so maybe at minimum 3 years old, though in a sensible universe, closer to 5 or 6. Yet despite being absent from Chloe's life for about a decade, if not more, we're supposed to believe Chloe is the way she is because she's emulating her mother...who isn't there to emulate? Okay. Sure Jan.

Totally unnecessary, Chloe's personality has a good foundation in the fact that her father is rich, powerful, and ready to drop everything to cater to her every petty whim. What does Audrey even add to Chloe's story as presented? Personally, I would've liked it more if Chloe deeply resented her mother and was determined to prove she was BETTER than Audrey. Then have her be frustrated and pissed off every time the two of them are accidentally in sync. Show me a love-hate relationship, at least that would've been interesting, and better yet, would've had something to say about a parent abandoning their child.

But the show just sorta soft balls it. Chloe and Audrey immediately "resolve" a lifetime of abandonment issues because another 14 year old pointed out that they both suck and the two bonded over the fact that she's...right? Audrey decides Chloe's name is worth remembering, she's worth staying in Paris for, and she's "exceptional" in less than 3 minutes because Chloe yelled at the Butler. And for the rest of the series, Audrey is just another Chloe-Patsy, doting on her like her Dad in "Malediktator", cowering under her outburst in "Sole Crusher", and acting as her enforcer when Andre ever puts up a fight. A duo made in hell, but they ARE getting along.

Which makes the leaks for how they're going to end things for the two are confusing.

I don't like Audrey because she was made to be unlikable, but I also don't like Audrey because of her effect on the story. She's used to excuse Chloe being The Worst because look! An Even Worse person! And she made Chloe sad! So you should ignore those several felonies Chloe's committed because her mommy sucks! Nevermind that Chloe and Audrey get along just fine now!

And on top of that, she's used to excuse Andre. Andre, who spoiled Chloe from the beginning, who acts as her attack dog when Chloe cries wolf, who's taught Chloe how to lie, cheat, steal, and bully her way to the top. Somehow HE is getting off scott-free now because He CaN'T bE a DirEcTor aNd fUlFiLL hiS dReAm cUz HiS wIfe'S a BiG meAnIE. Even though Chloe is mostly his fault.

Why couldn't Audrey just stay in New York so we can pretend she doesn't exist and just let Chloe's behavior make sense like it did back in Season 1?

Lmao, I think it would’ve been ironic if Chloe did what her father failed to do: become a better person and succeeded in her goals and dreams, without her parent(s) approval or input.

Forgiveness in Miraculous

The main issue I have with the redemption in ML is that redemption = forgiveness

The fact that characters get redeemed/forgiven/absolved when they haven’t done anything to warrant any of that: they simply change their mind and oh they’re good now! The good guys fully accept them as good too!

The characters who are “redeemed” so far have not put in the work to be redeemed

Literally the only character I can think of who did something bad and is actively putting in the work to be better and be there was fucking Jagged Stone

Felix barely did shit to be actually be a better person, and yet Kagami’s vouch for him is supposed to be our indication that he’s redeemed, not only that but he’s on the team!

Nathalie changed her mind, then changed it back to continue helping Gabe, then changed her mind again at the last possible moment, and she’s just chilling at the end with Marinette not doing anything about it, somehow that’s our indication that she’s redeemed (if it turns out Marinette forgot because of the wish somehow someone please throw a brick at my head)

Andre literally hasn’t even tried to act better or be better, and he’s completely absolved from all his actions because “he’s sowwy!” At least the other two characters tried doing something at the end, he didn’t do shit!

I am aware that them being better people could come around in season 6, but that’s not my issue. My issue is how they are treated as already redeemed without them putting in any work whatsoever!

It’s so ironic that the writers rag on Chloe because they say she only did good things because of selfish reasons, when the redemptions for the other characters literally amount to them changing their mind and that’s it

MLB writer's math be like...

ML writer's math is calling Chloe stans r*pist defenders on Twitter for defending Chloe while being silent about the fact that there are some extreme Felix stans who defend Felix's harassment towards LB

ML writer's math is saying Audrey's abuse doesn't excuse Chloe's horrid actions but proceeds to say Felix did nothing wrong and that his actions SHOULD be excused because his dad abused him, therefore making everything Colt's fault

ML writer's math is saying Lukloe is a toxic ship because it adopts the whole good boy fixing the bad girl trope which they say is unhealthy because Luka shouldn't carry the burden of being Chloe's therapist but proceed to make Feligami canon despite it being the exact same concept but reversed. Felix before Kagami was an anti-hero but after they got together, he is redeemed implying Kagami "fixed him"

ML writer's Math is condemning Colt Fathom for abusing and controlling his son and telling us to feel bad for Felix but when Audrey does the same thing to Chloe in Revolution and I repeat "I'm going to take control of your life again" she isn't held accountable as well and this abusive behaviour is treated as punishment and we shouldn't be feeling bad for her. (Disclaimer: NOT defending Colt because both are awful parents and both are terrible but there is a double standard going on. Felix and Chloe both deserve better parents)

ML writer's Math is calling out Felix's father for the abusive scum he is and recognising him as an abuser but refusing to give similar treatment to Gabriel and Andre who despite not being as bad as Colt when it comes to parenting are still rubbish parents. Why is Colt one of the only parents in the show to be held accountable?

ML writer's math (mainly TA) is being quick to slander some toxic Chloe/Lila stans for their problematic behaviour but when some toxic Maribug/Adrichat/Adrienette have also shown signs of toxic behaviour (e.g what happened to the Lila girl) Thomas Astruc stayed Silent on the matter. Surely a serious matter such as taking one's life should've been addressed by him since he sees himself as an activist and good person on Twitter. He should've known about it since the news of the Lila fan was common knowledge among the fanbase (even Cyrus the Great made a video about this)

Disclaimer : These are just common double standards I've seen in the writing and by TA. Comment more double standards if you know any. Please stay respectful when commenting

Andre does not acknowledge that he raised Chloe badly in the least ep. In fact, he claims HE'S the victim of his "heartless" daughter(he calls her that, btw)

😐..

"Am I, the grown man that raised this child and let my abusive wife treat her like shit, the victim?"

I hate that fucking man. Why is this show..excusing shitty parents. HE RAISED HER. HE WAS WEAK AND SPINELESS. YOU CANT GIVE A CHILD EVERYTHING THEY WANT AND THEN ACT SURPRISED WHEN THEY GROW UP SPOILED LITTLE ASSHOLES.

Petition for Andre to die like Gabriel alongside Audrey.