Please tell me how Roy’s characterisation was massacred for N52.

I understand how Jason and Roy’s relationship can be annoying where Roy never questions Jason and just follows him around blindly, never second guessing him. Roy is hard on himself and lacks self esteem and so thinks highly of Jason when really he should be angry, maybe even jealous of the power (all caste magic) Jason has. Then i get confused because I’d think someone going through a bout of depression and self hate and self medicating would have low self esteem and would think everyone is better than them and that they are a fuck up so isn’t that accurate portrayal of how awful Roy’s situation is?? Doesn’t that show the way Roy struggles just as he has pre N52?

Additionally Jason always compliments Roy on his greatness and abilities (Not in person which is annoying because grr he has to be manly and can’t compliment a friend) but in his little thought bubbles he’s always talking about how great Roy is and how grateful he is to have him.

Now this is where I get more confused because surely Roy respects Jason and through Jason’s monologues he clearly respects Roy though he may not say it out loud. The point is, people exaggerate so much how Roy is used as a crutch for Jason to look cool but Jason is constantly mentioning Roy and how important he is for the team. (Though I won’t deny there are times he may call him a goofball or undermine him but I mean cmon it’s literally ‘Red Hood’ and the outlaws, not ‘Titans’ where they’re equals, so it’s understandable that Jason would have swords and magic and stuff and save the day whilst Roy is not the main character). Idk I just haven’t noticed Roys character being MASSACRED when he’s with Jason.

People say Roy’s biggest trauma is having to be with Jason but I don’t know why that’s so bad like don’t just say it’s shit writing, fucking give me the evidence. (Sorry for the rant no offense to you what so ever). If the writing is so bad then blame the writer idk why Jason gets so much hate.

Anyway, please tell me how and why Rhato is the worst comics because I don’t think it’s that bad personally and I’d get shit for saying that.

Ps. This isn’t even about JayRoy or Lobdells disgusting history it’s literally just about why Rhato gets so much hate. I’m so confused so please explain /gen.

Thank you, have a nice day :)

Okay im gonna start this off by saying I think your looking at this the wrong way, your treating RHATO as just a stand alone story and if you want to know why people hate it you have to look at it in the broader context of it being a continuation of three different characters stories bc that is what it is - kory Roy and Jason are all pre established characters with rich backgrounds and personalities that have been building up for decades if you ignore these histories your gonna get push back from fans and Lobdell actually took it one step further

I'm gonna be short and sweet with this bc people more knowledgeable about roys character can put it way better then me but lets get straight to the point - the reason why people say Roy harper was massacred in RHATO is bc his whole character was changed- his back story, his relationships, his addiction, a lot of his personality and hell even his tattoos were changed and changed for the worse as a lot of it seemed to get done just to better suit Jason who was also changed a lot by lobdell but not to the extent that Roy was - a lot of it comes off like lobdell didn't even bother to read any comics with Roy in them before he decided to try and shove him into a role that wasn't suited for him which if your a long time Roy fan watching a character you adore get a complete overhaul just so he fits with the character the author uses as a self insert your gonna be a wee bit agitated

When your writing stories in the dc universe you have to be careful as a lot of these characters are main characters in their own right when they team up together sure you can focus on one more then the others but you have to be at least abit aware of each of the characters your including back stories motivations and personalities and what lobdell did was use the fact that the new 52 just happened as an excuse to create whole new characters with the same names as these much loved pre established characters and this rightfully pissed off a lot of people who loved these characters especially bc the things that happened in the n52 have had a lasting effect as these are the comics newer fans are reading and if your favourite character has been given a complete overhaul into a character you no longer recognise too bad a lot of people are gonna go forward only seeing Roy as Jason Todd's side character the guy in the baseball cap

You know I was also a fan of batfam, and I was just thinking about it, and the batfam shares a lot of similarities with sbi.

You have Phil and Bruce who, depending on the depiction, fall all over the best parent-worst parent scale. Some people think they’re the world’s best parent who is super attentive to their kids, some people think they’re full on abusive(though most of that end think they’re just neglectful), and still others think they’re bad but trying their best. They’re given the mentor role and all the kids desperately crave their attention. They are commonly depicted as being extremely scary to the outside world, but much softer to their family.

Then you have Wilbur and Dick. The sensitive older brother who basically parents their younger siblings. The one who is good with words and getting people to like them. The one with the strange talent that no one else in the family has (acrobatics and music). Hides their own negative emotions in favor of taking care of others. A leader who’s willing to take on emotional distress for the sake of those they lead. Not super buff, preferring to use more subtle and tricky ways of fighting.

Techno and Jason. The strong tough children who actually have a lot of emotional distress that they don’t know how to express. Doesn’t like to admit it, but is super protective over the people they love. Has a small group of friends who handle things in ways that many people look down on who they trust with their life. People trying to kill them, but they come back through some magical artifact (the Lazarus pools and the totem). Far more violent than most of the family, has less problems with killing others.

Tommy and Damian. Clearly younger than the others. Is secretly super soft and loves animals and their family, but hides it behind an agressive and often violent mask. Bonds with other kids but doesn’t like to say it, but the other kids realize anyway. Has a complicated relationship with their father figure and a very close relationship with one of their older brother figures. (Bonus points to the fact that a lot of people have started to make Tommy biologically related to Phil as a clone created to rival ‘the angel of death’ similarly to how Damian was raised to become greater than Batman)

And then despite not actually being a part of sbi, Tubbo somewhat matches Tim. They’re both the Tech kids who had their own family but got adopted in. They’re both usually described as the logical ones who run on chaotic genius and no sleep.

So I feel like it’s not surprising that fans of one are often fans of the other.

omg yes i want to talk about this all the time!! so i know the batfam personalities change with like every writer and reboot and fanon perception but there are so many good comparisons to be made and i felt so strongly i wrote an au about this. you really said most of what i was thinking about but ill add other little points.

so yes phil and bruce obviously. even like their titles the "angel of death" and "the dark knight" are kinda similar in a way. i dont know if this makes kristin talia or selina but i love it.

wilbur and dick. this feeds my oldest sibling wilbur preference and just fits so well. like, they're both performers, they're closer to tommy/damian, they're extroverted and better with people. i didnt even think about some of the stuff you listed like the leadership and fighting style but you're so right.

techno and jason i feel very strongly about. so yeah the violence is the obvious comparison. there's also like the fondness for literature which is a trait of jason's i hold onto dearly. there's a frame in rhato where jason has the art of war on his bookshelf and that's just perfect honestly. im sure theres something with niki as starfire that could be drawn with her being wilbur friend but then joining techno's group later.

tommy and damian. tubbo's his jon (i almost said colin but i remembered colin doesnt exist anymore) and like henry and batcow? it's perfect. damian was very briefly vegetarian in some iteration and i mean osmp tommy's a vegetarian. i'll take any tiny connections i can make. i literally thought about damian and bruce when the "tommy was made in a lab" theory arose. i have a complicated opinion on damian but to be fair its been awhile since ive been really into dc so if i took a look at him now i feel like my opinion would be better especially with all the connections that can be drawn between him and tommy

you saying tubbo is tim brought me an image of the absolute hilarity of ranboo being stephanie so thanks. the only caveat there is the fact that tim and damian just do not get along. to be fair, none of these guys get along in dc canon, but i chose to ignore that.

but yeah i like didnt think there'd be batman and mcyt crossover with fans, but there is and that's real neat cuz then i get to do little rambles like this with you