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#also love that rtd is calling fourteen 'david'
azertyrobaz · 5 months
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"We've got a happy Doctor."
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doctornolonger · 4 months
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People are sometimes surprised when I mention that the unproduced story I regret the most isn't any of the many cancelled FP projects but Steven Hall's Fifty-Fifty, which would have wrapped up some of Big Finish's best character arcs with a conflict between the Seventh and Eighth Doctors at "the moment where 7 went bad".
It would have been the retroactive pinnacle of Wilderness Years, taking its two Doctors with such different characterizations and pitting them against each other. It also … doesn't make a ton of sense. Even taking into account the timey-wimey memory effects of a multi-Doctor event, how could such a dramatic character arc for the Seventh Doctor possibly come and go without the Eighth Doctor – his future self – having any idea?
This question keeps coming up in Doctor Who, and every time the answer feels contrived. Steven Hall would have solved it for Fifty-Fifty by introducing a "Temporal Wish" that allows parts of history to be rewritten without timeline damage. Elsewhere, Big Finish has resorted to hand-waving: every story where characters meet out-of-order has to involve an ad hoc disguise, a memory wipe, or a promise from one of the characters that next time they'll pretend not to have met (🥴). And don't even get me started on "season 6b"!
In what Ingiga cleverly calls Doctor Who: The Return, RTD faced the same question. What if we had more Tenth Doctor stories, not squeezed into any of the well-trodden gaps in his timeline but set after The End of Time – genuinely new stories, taking the character places that it never would've made sense for him to go (such as therapy)?
RTD answered this question twice. Once the regular way, the ad hoc way: David Tennant's contrived return at the end of The Power of the Doctor. And then, emboldened by the Power of the Showrunner, he solved it again – and he solved it for every story, now and forever.
I think down the timeline, they all separated. They all went like that. All the Doctors came back to life with their individual TARDISes. The gift of the Toymaker. And they're all out there traveling around in what I'm calling the Doctorverse. It's the Doctorverse. And I want to create a future in which Sylvester McCoy, he can survive and have an adventure. Because one of the things about The Star Beast is, to get you back and Catherine, we had to jump through so many hoops. Which is great story, but it's like, why can't you just arrive and step out the TARDIS? […] Because this is exactly what Big Finish does. It's exactly what everyone does in their imagination. […] It's time to just kind of open it up and say, they're all out there now.
Or as he put it a different time,
Doctors galore, with infinite possibilities. All Doctors exist. All stories are true.
Gig's latest piece rightly dismisses the "Flowchart" theory of bigeneration, but frankly, I think the fiddly stuff about "fix" vs "fixed" etc. is a red herring. The simple fact is that if Fourteen's post-Giggle memories flow backwards into Fifteen – if Seven's post-TV Movie memories flow backwards into Eight – bigeneration wouldn't solve the Fifty-Fifty problem.
Yes, RTD tries to have his cake and eat it too. In the dream logic of The Giggle, "emotional healing" is a mysterious essence that can be transferred through time independently of memories, just as incinerated roads can magically heal themselves in The Star Beast. But in terms of what RTD's trying to accomplish, in terms of what bigeneration is, I think it's okay to take him at his word.
Speaking of words, the leak called it "bi-regeneration", and even after the episode aired, much of the internet followed suit. But that's not what it's called. It's just bigeneration: not a type of regeneration, an alternative. And indeed, now we have this option – now we have Fourteen, not just Ten – why would we ever go back to playing the timeline-squeezing game? If Big Finish officially untethered itself from the past Doctors' timelines and, say, freed Eight from his interminable death march – would anyone miss it?
Lawrence Miles certainly didn't think so when he advocated a similar untethering 24 years ago.
When you watched Doctor Who as a kid, it kind of lost some of its edge from the start, because you knew for a fact how things were going to turn out. […] I've always felt that the Missing Adventures… or PDAs, or whatever you want to call them… have got a similar problem. The Doctor can't die [or go to therapy – n8.] We know the future, it's not even an issue. That was why I did what I did in Interference. Even if they don't like it, I hope people realize there's a purpose behind it all. It's suppose to justify the existence of the PDAs. From that point on, you can never be sure what the outcome's going to be.
Nobody picked up his suggestion back then, but then again, Miles lacked the Power of the Showrunner. If Tales of the TARDIS' therapeutic dreamscapes are any indication, it won't be long before other writers adopt RTD's in-vision musings as gospel.
So what will happen when Fourteen dies? Will he regenerate? Will he dissolve into sparkles, his ✨emotional healing✨ shooting back in time to become Fifteen? Or like the prior iteration of the "Tenth Doctor happy ending offshoot" idea, is he simply mortal now? The frank answer is that we'll probably never find out: that's simply not the kind of story that bigeneration is meant to tell.
Or maybe RTD's already told us. The quote earlier about "Doctors galore" came from the note accompanying his "Doctor Who and the Time War". That story shows us an Eighth Doctor who survived to the very last days of the Time War, with no War Doctor to be found; it's easy to imagine a bigeneration on Karn not unlike RTD's speculation that "Peter Davison once was left behind on the surface of Androzani and woke up and there was a TARDIS and he carried on having those adventures."
And in the story – released almost seven years after The Night of the Doctor showed us the birth of the War Doctor – Eight struggles, and he succumbs, and he regenerates … into Christopher Eccleston's Nine. Now there's a flowchart that I could get behind.
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dreamcaught · 5 months
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So okay, I haven't seen the commentary about Fourteen returning to Fifteen once he's processed his trauma to be "reabsorbed" or whatever, but if that's how it's gonna go, then yeah. Okay, I can see why they did this.
Doctor Who has been such a fucking insane whirlwind of loss and trauma pretty much since Journey's End when the Doctor lost his lover and his best friend. Tentoo and Rose are happily married in Pete's World. That Doctor gets to actively live the happiest he's ever been every single day, but this Doctor had to keep going.
Eleven lost the Ponds. Twelve lost Clara and Bill. These characters effectively die, which is why they're mentioned directly. And exemplified by the Toymaker, these are big losses. Yaz+Co. didn't get even an inkling of a mention because, quite frankly, they weren't. They all just got to go back home like companions used to do all the time. It was kind of a big deal that so many companions had such tragic, permanent, traumatic endings. So yeah, it makes sense that the Doctor would need to take time to process this.
(That and the Flux thing, apparently, which - uh - I guess falls under the same umbrella.)
Fourteen is incredibly vulnerable. He's open and raw, and he needs to be in order to be the Doctor to process these things. It makes strategic story sense to have the Doctor break in half to allow part of him to retire and process while the other part of him keeps going, because (like with Tentoo), the show must go on -- he can't actually stop.
Having David Tennant's face as Fourteen makes a lot of strategic sense, too. Not only is DT a fan favourite, but his relationship with Donna is the most familial of relationships he's had. Some fans may wonder again why Yaz wasn't who he'd go to, but it has to be noted that they made Yaz a romantic interest and that is not what this Doctor wants or needs right now. That's why they've established Fourteen as (likely) gay. That's why he's calling Rose Noble his niece and Shaun his brother-in-law. He's effectively rehabilitating with his sister, and that's kind of cool.
I do understand the tragedy of Donna's ending was appealing to many viewers, but it's been 15 years. That's long enough for her to get a better ending to her story that doesn't just involve winning the lottery. Her family and how she cares for people who need it are Donna's greatest strengths. Having Donna get her memory back but not become an all-knowing DoctorDonna hybrid is sending a kind message of hope that I think this world needs right now, to be honest.
RTD has done this, in part, to allow for the show to return to being more lighthearted and about hope than it has for a long time. It's saying that it's okay to take a break, but also acknowledges that the Doctor - as a show and as an almost supernatural being - has to carry on as well. It's a soft reboot with acknowledgement to the past without having to view it as a burden, so I get that.
I've seen a lot of people immediately compare this ending to Tentoo/Rose, though, and I don't know if I agree. This isn't a Doctor creating a version of himself to be with a lover as a human, to live the one, singular life he couldn't otherwise have. He didn't bi-regenerate out of love or fear of losing his lover. His loss of regenerations and ability to age as Tentoo is really important to their story, and this is not true for Fourteen. He's still full Time Lord - and if the commentary is true - will eventually reunite with himself. That's not at all the same. Instead, this is the Doctor many years after a traumatic experience using a magical way to get his break and travel, too.
As well, the Doctor was in love with Rose. He had to tear his heart out and leave her in a different universe to let her go. That would not have happened with a bi-regenerated Doctor sharing the same universe. The two Doctors would have had to create a copy of Rose (much like these two had to do so with the TARDIS) in order to be happy. It's not like Donna, because Donna can be a sister to two identical brothers and it's not weird.
(That's if you don't count polyamory, but that would never happen in the show.)
I hope that they use this soft reboot to help move on from past traumas in a healthy way. I hope that Fourteen with Donna does help Fifteen become more of a positive Doctor than even Thirteen was, who was secretly dealing with so much angst all the time.
I do adore, absolutely, that the Doctor did acknowledge his favourite people. River Song and Adric were mentioned as important and lost. Sarah Jane and Rose were explicitly said to be loved. It was less than I was hoping for, but also exactly what I think should happen if they're trying to use this special as a way to finally, realistically move on and start something fresh, new and positive.
So yeah, I guess I'll keep watching to see what happens next.
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billpottsismygf · 5 months
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Right, okay, overall that episode was great. Really fun, really atmospheric. Effectively straddled the line between hilarity and terror in the spice girls scene. NPH exceeded all my expectations as the Toymaker; he was giving very Emcee in Cabaret vibes when he was doing the camp German thing, but then was able to reign it in and be in control and frightening when he switched into an English accent. He was defeated a little too easily for my liking, but that's far from the biggest problem with the episode.
Now. The bi-generation. I hate it. I don't necessarily hate that it happened - I quite like that Fourteen and Fifteen got to work together - but I hate that it wasn't resolved at the end. If this had been a two parter, the regeneration could have been a fun cliffhanger and led into a part two where there were some more games with the Toymaker - since his part could easily have been extended, as could John Logie Baird's - and where the bi-generation got resolved. As it is, however, now there are… two Doctors… Permanently? If it is going to be resolved in the future, though, why not just do it now?
My main issues:
It undermines Ncuti Gatwa as the Doctor. It feels weirdly like he's a secondary Doctor, rather than being The Doctor. Especially being the first black Doctor in the main running order, that's just a bit suspect. Although the final shot was of Fifteen heading off in the TARDIS, the focus of the end of the episode was so much on Fourteen instead of this exciting new era. This should be a fresh new start with Ncuti Gatwa at the helm, but instead he feels like an after thought. (He has given one hell of a performance so far, though, so I'm still incredibly excited to see his Doctor shine.)
It undermined what felt like a lovely bit of character growth, with David Tennant's Doctor being ready to leave this time.
I just don't believe that the Doctor would settle down like this? I get it, he's traumatised and needs to heal, but I still don't believe he would act like this! I usually think RTD is fantastic at character things, but that final scene was weird and wrong (I also don't believe Wilf would ever shoot moles). Even the idea that he's taking little trips doesn't make sense. The Doctor is incapable of not accidentally getting embroiled in a war or an invasion.
RTD has already done this! Why does he have an obsession with creating an additional David Tennant Doctor and then getting him to settle down into a human family life? And it worked better last time! At least then it was a Doctor that was part human and locked off in a parallel world.
Why are there two Doctors now??? This is just weird????
There are two TARDISes as well! Our favourite ship has been split in two… That's a sentient being!
The one thing that is slightly saving it for me is that Fifteen appears to still canonically come after the end of Fourteen's time as the Doctor, rather than Fourteen having the ability to continually regenerate into other Doctors. My only evidence for this is that Ncuti's Doctor says that he's mentally healthy now because David's Doctor did the work. So… Does Fifteen have the memories of Fourteen's time with Donna and family? Are they going to have to meet up and re-merge at some point? That would be better than the alternative, which would be for David Tennant to just perpetually be around as the Doctor. I love the man, and was even saying that I was surprisingly sad at how quickly our time with Fourteen would be over, but I don't want it extended like this. Not like this!
It's such a shame that what was otherwise a pretty good episode, if a little rushed, has been completely overshadowed by this bad and pointless decision.
Anyway, we got some hints about the future. The Toymaker has called on his legions, there's the One Who Waits, the tooth with the Master has been picked up by someone with red fingernails (again!). I'm still looking forward to what's to come; it just feels like this brand new adventure has been held back somewhat by clinging onto the, admittedly wonderful, David Tennant.
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t-he-art-of-beauty · 5 months
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so. doctor who thoughts? doctor who thoughts.
I was leak-spoilered against my will, at least super vaguely, and I gotta say I was worried. Because I am a sucker for traumatic painful catharsis. For sobbing and not feeling okay. For having to sacrifice something I love for the story to go on. And I was worried it would be too meta or too obviously based on out-of-universe/out-of-story decisions and pull me out of the story.
but I have to say despite going into it a little bit apprehensively I came out of it wholeheartedly having enjoyed it. It was really really well executed. It was fun! I teared up, I giggled, I was scared and tense. Despite having been spoilered I believed and felt the intensity of the moment where fourteen gets hit by that beam, David’s performance dragged me with it into this moment hitting despite knowing it likely wouldn’t last. His confusion and realization hit. And Fifteen comforting him like that? Unmade me. I’m here now. It’s okay.
I really think there’s a lot to what I’ve seen others write about: With RTD’s life experiences his interest in and perspectives on the kinds of stories he wants to tell might have shifted. Nine and Ten explored trauma and repression and always running and the myriad of “I’m fines” in such visceral ways. Now, throughout the specials, we got Donna calling it out over and over again. Trying to reach him, trying to make him stop. Fourteen, already much softer and more expressive, still running, and yet more glimpses of confronting the weight of it all and what that means for him. And now, this. Healing, as a central theme, this explicitly.
I’m still unsure about the actual bigeneration mechanics and I wonder if (and hope) it’s going to be explained more. Does Fifteen have all the memories of Fourteen healing and resting and retiring and that’s the reason why he’s so integrated and carefree and light now? Is it basically a “preemptive regeneration” so the Doctor can keep on chugging along and saving the world? Did the Doctor split off the regeneration that was suffering the worst under the trauma (subtitles post bigeneration referring to Tennant!Doctor as Ten?) And basically excised the pain as a separate regeneration who gets to retire now?
I’m not sure what I actually want here. I’m trying not to want anything, because I want to like this story and continue liking it and knowing myself the best way to get there is to trust that it will take me somewhere and go with the flow.
I have to say though, I am still. Very much. A sucker for trauma and pain and whump, so there is a slight worry that Fifteen will not feel like a continuation of that post-time-war NuWho legacy that I latched onto with the show, as someone who doesn’t really know ClassicWho. But I also love love love Ncuti and his energy and charm and presence I could see in this episode so maybe it’s time to rearrange my expectations for where this will go and open myself up to falling in love with a very different kind of character. Who knows what will happen. Who knows how this character will look back onto and relate to the memories and experiences he has integrated and healed from. I mean that’s the thing about trauma, it never truly gets to the point of “as if it never happened”, it changes you and the healing from it does just as well. I’m sure RTD knows that, I hope it will be acknowledged and addressed, but even if it isn’t I think I’m open to see where it goes right now.
Because even if NuNuWho stops satisfying my doctor-specific hunger for whump and associated hurt(/comfort), with the slate of queer talent in front of and behind the camera and the commitment to be political RTD has already shown (even if he’s fumbling in slightly strange ways here and there) it might just start feeding a very different kind of hunger. NCUTI SAVE ME NCUTI. well.
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trashboatprince · 5 months
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Here are my thoughts on Wild Blue Yonder!
HOO BOY!
Doctor Who spoilers under the cut.
First off, loving the whole random ass opening with Sir Issac Newton, and the fact that they continue to use the word mavity throughout the episode. It's stupid, but it's exactly what you expect from Doctor Who
Ooooh, the Doctor being so bummed about the new console room, the way they sounded reminded me of Crowley's '90 years and not a scratch'. No wonder David knew what to do, he was told to think of the TARDIS blowing up for that scene. And... well... looks like he had to repeat that, haha.
QUEER FOURTEEN! QUEER FOURTEEN! I mean, honestly, I already suspected as much, but yes! Gay? Bi? Pan? Who the fuck cares, they're queer! (And I still stand by David's Doctors being ace, so... :))
The tenderness of Fourteen caring for Donna throughout this, especially at the end when they hold her while the spaceship explodes... *clutches chest*
The visuals for the ship are pretty damn cool, if a little cheesy, but this greatly reminds me of the station from RTD's second episode during Nine's era, which also included the companion nearly dying by a powerful heat.
If I had a nickel for every time David played a nonbinary non-human in tight clothing talking to someone with the label of 'Jim(bo)' in 2023, I'd have two nickels.
The fucking creatures in this episode! UUUUUHHHHHGGGGGG!!! The body horror made it impossible for me to watch because holy shit it started getting into that territory where I feel my skin crawl just looking at it!
That's not to say I hated it, I fucking love horror in Doctor Who, but UUHHGG!!! EW! FUCKING NO!
Also really creepy that not-Donna knew about The Flux and the Timeless Child bullshit. I hate this lore, but it was interesting how it was brought back in a horror setting.
David and Catherine playing villains against them playing heroes is a delight
Also, chalk this up as another time David plays a version of the Doctor, this time as an enemy. Though in my heart of hearts, the Spriggan is still his best villain Doctor, TLV!Ten and not-Fourteen be damned!
Scary as fuck, very intense, this was a great special that I really did not see any of it coming. I'm so glad it was kept secret.
WILF! I started sobbing when he showed up, I love Wilf so much, and Fourteen's pure delight at seeing him! <3 I miss Bernard, I'm so glad he was able to be part of this before he passed.
It's not Doctor Who without a cliffhanger!
I wonder what the salt thing will do in the series, will Fifteen have a call back to it? I'm very curious...
Overall, a terrifying special, I fucking loved it, but eeeeeewwwwww... the body horror and stuff. I hope David and Catherine had fun!
Also, I like Jimbo.
Anyone else get Midnight and the two-parter Ganger episodes vibes from this special? Cause I love that.
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neeneeeeeee · 5 months
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NEW New Who
Ya know, I have been thinking about this since I stopped watching the show religiously when Twelve exited. Jodi's run was unfortunately badly written (at least IMO), and don't get me started on the abomination (at least IMO) that is Dhawan's Master.... I have been a fan since DW was revived by RTD, and had seen most of the Classic Who since New Who started.... but I feel like Jodi's run was this "imploding" badly written TRANSition that was inevitable. I heard it had the lowest viewers rating (I didn't watch Jodie's era when it was on air, because I tried and it bored me-- everything seemed like a derivative of the original New Who reboot, especially Dhawan's Master). BUT maybe it was necessary for the Doctor's story to implode on itself to make way for a CLEAN SLATE FOR NCUTI, considering Moffat wasn't a perfect show runner prior Chibnall's weak performance (which is weird cause I loved Chibnall's one-off episodes during RTD's and Moffat's supervision).... Sure, Moffat put DW on the "mainstream" map with his sparkles and cinematic writing. But ever since RTD left, the show lacked that "homely adventure" vibe it always had in Classic Who, and Moffat helped Doctor Who become a bad telenovela of some sort.
Don't get me wrong, I loved a lot of things about Moffat's era-- The Ponds and River Song were the backbone of that era, not Matt Smith (again IMO). I also adored Capaldi because he quickly became my MOST FAVORITE TOP 1 Doctor of all time. But there was something lacking since RTD. And when Chibnall and Jodi came in, the show lost all its spark and just FLOPPED for me (again IMO, because I have seen most Classic Who and was initially brought into the show during RTD's era, I can make that assessment-- Jodi's companions were not engaging apart from Graham).
But yeah, I definitely think the show needed to "implode"/flop during the "female Doctor transition" with Jodi, in order to make a CLEAN slate for Ncuti. I mean, I really hope THIS IS A NEW ERA reminiscent of both Classic Who and initial New Who, but HAS ITS OWN vibe and "alt" storylines.
I'm not opposed to them harking back to NuHu and Classic Who from time to time, but seeing Ncuti come in with the FRESH NEW ENERGY just screams "NEW NuHu" to me.... And I PRAY THEY KEEP IT THAT WAY. I already am enamored by Ncuti's energy..... Jodi's era is sorta like when Sixth came in-- an inevitable BAD management of the writing team, but in hindsight a NECESSARY transition for the show to revive itself.
BTW
We ARE calling Ncuti Fourteen, right? Because David Tennant will always be "Ten" to me. And the War Doctor and the others are "titled" Doctors to me, not "sequenced" Doctors.
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veggiehomosapien · 5 months
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'k. i just watched the last ep of the dw special.
***(SPOILERS WILL BE DISCUSSED)***
it had its fun moments, surprisingly was okay with neil patrick harris as the toymaker and it was lovely to see certain characters again, but i gotta say...not pleased. i just gotta get my thoughts out. very long rant incoming (feel free to skip lol):
bi-generation? really? i can vaguely see what rtd was trying to do but man...what a mistake i think that was. it completely takes away from ncuti's doctor having his own regen moment and the "passing of batons" -- AND the fact that fourteen is just what, chilling on earth with his own tardis and can come back at any time?? (and let's face it, he probably will. not that i don't love seeing david but we need to let this go now, it's time to move on!). and how ncuti's doctor has the "cloned" tardis and david's fourteen has the "original" like? idk i feel really icky about it all?? absolutely none of this was necessary. and don't even get me started on that line that donna had when fifteen regenerated ooooooooo *grumbles* they better have black writers writing for ncuti bc if this ep is anything to go by...yikes.
as if that wasn't enough lol, the fact that yasmin khan, the woman who fell for the woman who fell to earth, the first sapphic southeast asian companion, who JUST left the doctor, was not even acknowledged?? if we're name-dropping all of the previous companions, why ignore her? four eps ago we had her and the doctor sharing their final moments together, and the doctor absolutely cannot have just forgotten everything that happened given that they mentioned the flux. but also! we had kate stewart in the ep! and mel! where the fuck was the mention of the support group! "just saw yaz the other day, she's doing well." "dan and graham say hi" - LIKE HELLO?????? and the cheap shot of "who'd have thought. i ended up with a family" after thirteen called her companions "fam" (and i'll even mention amy and rory for that matter). like listen, i love donna and i love ten (and found fourteen very interesting!) but COME ON. the doctor has had, and will continue to have, family, in all of it's varying forms and connections. there is no need to differentiate between the other "families" (that have been explicitly mentioned as families) - as well as the "you came home" line. *eyeroll* yeah uh huh, thanks rtd. the doctor never had people to call home before. i just think that line was in poor taste. a complete disrespect to the previous characters who we know and love.
and i want to reiterate the fact that not only was yaz not mentioned or acknowledged, but martha too. she knew ten's face, she's met donna, why wasn't she a part of unit? why were yaz and martha the only two of the main modern companions to not be mentioned hmm?
anyway. apologies for this long-winded rant. i'm just. disappointed. and frustrated. this had so much potential but i guess i should have known what we were getting into with thirteen regenerating into david and him not wearing thriteen's clothes and then rtd saying that he didn't regen into her clothes bc a man dressing in woman's clothes could be considered drag and that would be a "delicate" topic (so what was jodie dressed in twelve's clothes? and if you went on to write the idea that the doctor's gender is outside of the binary, what's the big fuss, rtd?)
all this to say, i am excited for ncuti (so excited for him, he did wonderfully in this ep!!) and i can't wait to see what he brings. he deserved a better introduction. one to call his own.
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