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sawtual · 2 years

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Watched Saw 1-3 & thought of smth.. I genuinely believe that Amanda was better of dying in her trap. I don't think that she ever deserved to be there but what John did to her was far worse a fate than death. I genuinely believe that Amanda thinks this too and it's one of the reasons why she rigged her traps in 3 to always kill. I think she believes she shouldve died and that surviving from a saw trap doesn't fix you and is just worse than dying. Maybe thats like what the lore is am I'm just realizing that now but eh.. Just some food for thought ig

HSJDJFNG ok most times when ppl say my fave character should die i would disagree but no like youre right unfortunately. if the only 2 options were for amanda to be groomed by john or die, i think at least towards the end of saw 3 even amanda wishes she had just died back then...

i do think one thing thats very interesting is amandas extreme will to survive yk? she did what barely anyone could; i havent looked at the exact numbers but very few people actually do survive jigsaws games. the fact shes always been so desperate to cling to life is definitely something i think john admired + something he wanted to use for his advantage. also like... thinking about this, her will to live, it makes you think abt her decision to shoot lynn at the end of saw 3. i can think abt it from a few angles but my main ones are "she did believe john + knew they would all die, but couldnt bring herself to risk john knowing what happened. she was acting on a suicidal urge and had essentially given up" vs "she didnt believe john, and the reason she shoots lynn is because shes too terrified of john learning the truth. she'd rather betray him again than possibly face the full wrath of john". honestly i pingpong between these, going back n forth. it really is something im curious about and think about a lot! i do genuinely think she was terrified of john though, and believed if he found out amanda was complicit in gideons death, whatever he did to her would be so much worse than dying.

(side note , im PRETTY sure john knew of amandas involvement in gideons death? at first when i wrote this i was 100 percent sure and now i actually talked myself out of it a bit x_x i was thinking she was picked to play because john knew of her involvement but actually.. i feel like john would have mentioned it in the tape? but idk.. and maybe the trap ripping her mouth open could have had something to do with like.. irony about her asking her ex bf to get the drugs? IDK. these are thoughts fresh off the dome)

ALSO WHAT YOU SAY ABT HER RIGGING..!! is one of my top theories!! i genuinely do think she believed she had been reborn at first, and feverishly devoted herself to john, but i think it only became clearer and clearer to her how fucked up and unfair jigsaws games are. she clearly believed adams involvement was unfair, she was ridden with guilt over it and i think killing him to save him was a main catalyst in her losing herself + her will to live. then you have the gas house, she saw nothing but violence and suffering in there and clearly got a first person POV that no one was getting better, people were only suffering or hurting others. like she saw how close xavier got to winning!? if daniel hadnt killed him he might have actually won! at least in her eyes he didnt grow from this. he was cruel and violent and chose to hurt others when it was never needed. man didnt even do his own trap. 😭 + eric matthews whole shit?? he didnt change. or grow. he was violent and cruel as well. and of course her own personal hatred + fear messed with her in regards to him, hes the reason shes even here yk..?? as fair as amanda knows, jigsaw ONLY targetted her because she was am addict. and she can solely blame eric matthews for that happening. the was she collapses in pain after the fight. i just think amanda was really letting it sink in, just how badly her life was turning out 😓

but yeah basically i think her making her traps unwinnable because she didnt believe anyone actually changes from them (+knowing it can make you worse) is a super compelling theory and i honestly agree. i could honestly see it as an act of mercy on her part. ntm all her traps (iirc) killed their victims instantly, whereas john would leave people to just die of thirst in dark rooms 😐. honestly all amandas traps were pretty kind in that regard 😭

.....also also i DO think amamda had the potential to be rehabilitated even during saw 3 when she was at her most detatched and unhealthy, i know she could have been saved if there was any effort put into it on someones part, but i seriously do not believe that the police department + courts would show her any mercy for being a jigsaw accomplice. like. at all @_@. and i think serving more jail time instead of getting actual mental health aid, would only serve to make her that much more hateful and withdrawn and violent :( its extremely sad imo. amandas story is so compelling to me because at pretty much every turn, if she had just been shown more kindness, is someone had just stepped in sooner, maybe things wouldnt have ended up the way they did :( but no one really cared about her, save for the small kindness that adam showed her in the hallway.. and that was too late 😥

#*wakes up* *recieves saw ask* *goes fucking insane*#text heavy #anon #saw #amanda young #AUAUAUGH AMANDA MOMENTS SHE MAKES ME CRAZED. INSANE EVEN #also in regards to u wondering if what u said is canon lore: saw canon lore is so wishy washy + we never get anything super concrete -#in regards to amandas motives? like theres the implication hoffman had a lot more to do with her 'rigging' in the later movies #even to the point of him possibly framing her abt it 😐 (we see him tinkering with the angel trap)#ntm we dont know if amanda truly believes what shes saying in the 'fix me motherfucker' scene #or if shes just lashing out in fear and anger.#i think it's both honestly.. i think shes had strong doubts abt jigsaws whole belief #plus her crying out that shes just a pawn #i think she said that because shes scared its true #she maybe even partially believes it.. but mainly think she was voicing her own fears in hopes that they could be disproven #LIKE CLEARLY SHE WAS BEING MANIPULATED AND GROOMED... but i think she was desperately clinging onto the hope that john would -#accept her and love her despite anything she had done #and when i say love i mean paternally @_@. i think she saw a violent man and went 'yay new dad' ! and got so fucking traumatized #asks #LONG POST #im sorry i havent thought much abt saw the past week and this bursted the freaking dam

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aethylas · 3 years

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For anonymous: a series of answers/clarifications/amendments on The Goldenrod Revisions! (I've answered these all in one post just to make it easier). Thank you so much for the asks, this helped me a) clarify my thoughts b) solve some canon continuity issues so I really appreciate them!

THANK U for agreeing to answer my questions! I'll have to ask them separately so they're not in 1 super-long impossible-to-read ask. I have 3 about 15x19, 1 about 15x20, 2 about 15x21, 2 about 15x22, and 2 about 15x23. quick disclaimer: i don't mean any offense at all by my question count! I didn't even notice these oddities the first time I read this; once I read it and accepted it as the true canon, I took a closer look and then noticed. but plz don't think these made your fic any less great!!

No worries anon! It is literally my pleasure to answer them and I am VERY very happy to find discrepancies with canon in the fic - then I can hopefully fix them and make the fic better :) Also I really appreciate the very systematic way you laid all these out, it really helped me reply, and also subsequently make a couple of edits to the fic!

For 15x19:

1. Why did Chuck trust Michael with the task of killing Jack? As God he should know Michael betrayed him in 15.08; did he expect Michael to disobey him again?

I think in this case we're/Chuck is relying on knowledge from the canon 15.19, i.e. Chuck would assume the outcome predicted by the show - that Michael WOULD betray the Winchesters/the world in order to please his father. So God assumed Michael would act the way he did in Inherit The Earth. But additionally, Chuck isn't actually very keyed-in to his own characters' motivations (esp. when love is involved) or very attached to certain results - he basically sends Michael and Lucifer to kill Jack because he figures it will entertain him no matter what happens - whether Michael and Lucifer kill each other, whether they kill the Winchesters/Jack, etc. - either Jack dies this way or Chuck will think of another way to do it.

2. How was Sam able to kill Lucifer? It was said only an archangel could kill another archangel with the archangel blade; was this a total lie or could Sam do it since he's Lucifer's true vessel? (plz don't change it to have Michael kill him; Sam being the one to do it was perfect, I just wanna understand how he could do it).

So glad you raised this because I honestly totally forgot! But now that you have, I have corrected that lore continuity with a line about biblical metaphors.

3. How is Rowena alive? She said she was dead in 15.08, so I initially assumed as a witch and the Queen of Hell she found a way to travel between Hell and Earth despite being dead. But then Sam says "Michael could've killed you" and then Chuck kills her twice in 15.21, both of which indicate she's alive here - does this mean Michael resurrected her when she summoned him?

God okay this is like - please call me out if this is incorrect or still confusing - but it's kind of like, based on the very inconsistent and confusing lore of the SPN afterlife that I assume Rowena is 'dead' but also 'alive' in the sense that Crowley was 'alive' and is now 'dead'. Does that make sense? She's not 'alive' as a human but rather as a demon (or something like it). So as Queen of Hell and a presumably demonic-adjacent entity, when she's 'killed' she gets sent to the Empty now vs. being 'killed' as a human and going to Heaven/Hell. (Based on when we see her in Hell, I assume she possesses her own body? Unclear. Just go with it. They've never been great with what it means to show vessels in Heaven/Hell etc.)

4. I thought asked all I wanted to know about Goldenrod but I just thought of 1 more thing: I don’t get why some dialogue implies Michael was dead? He mentions how he “found himself back on Earth” and tells the Empty it couldn’t stop Chuck from resurrecting him & Lucifer, but prior to 15.19 we last saw Michael leaving the bunker with Adam alive and well in 15.08, and it seemed like he was gonna stay on Earth for Adam’s sake. So what happened to him?

Oh that's a great point! I think that is actually just a confusing choice on my part that Chuck killed absolutely everyone including Michael/Adam in 15.18 Despair and THEN chose to resurrect Michael (but not Adam) alongside Lucifer when he was bored/wanting to kill Jack. I made some slight adjustments in-text to hopefully make it less confusing because I know that's different to the lore of canon 15.19 Inherit the Earth.

For 15x20:

1. How did the angels and demons in the Empty wake up? Did Michael use the last of his grace to wake everyone up? Were they already awake thanks to Jack blowing up in 15x18 or did they somehow sleep through that? (Not expanding on the Empty's claim that "you made it loud" is one of countless things I'll never forgive the actual show for, so THANK YOU for taking the show back to the Empty in the first place; I was just curious about this one element.)

So the Empty was already 'loud' according to canon, but since canon is vague on what exactly that means (thank you writers!...) I got the impression it meant the Empty wasn't 'peaceful' anymore but still powerful enough to suppress the beings inside, like the beings in there were awake and suffering but unable to rebel. Sort of what we see with Cas in this version of 15.20. Maybe like, additional suffering in sleep paralysis? Regardless, Michael does expend his grace to weaken the Empty enough that other beings wake up and/or are able to fight back and exist outside their own personal nightmare chamber. So whatever your impression of 'loud' is with regards to the other beings in there, assume Michael was able to free them from the Empty's control.

For 15x21:

1. Having Jack & Amara take out Hell & Purgatory was a BRILLIANT idea; I love that they ended all the places of suffering and changed the system. I just wonder - what happened to the souls and the demons still in Hell at that point, and the Leviathans and other monsters still in Purgatory? Were they just wiped out completely and sent to the Empty? Or did Jack turn them human and add them to the cycle? (I don't think the show clarified whether or not Leviathans have souls, so...)

No matter whether they were monster or demon or even angel, they would eventually be given human life. I broke it down to 'human enough souls' vs. 'not human enough souls'. Human-enough were immediately brought to life with memories and versions of their original bodies, and not-human-enough were sent to the Soul Queue to be born as infants. I assume Leviathan and most demons fall into 'not human enough', therefore, whatever tiny microbe of personality/soul they had was added to the cycle of rebirth and would be translated to a new human soul. Of course this might have a WILDLY different impact on the world depending on how many people go to hell in this system, how many people were 'human enough', etc.... But we're basically fudging those numbers a bit one way or another just to give certain characters the revival they deserve haha.

2. Did Cas drown and die after Chuck threw him in the lake and Jack left their limbo-dream world? If so, did he go through the same question-&-answer situation with Death that Sam & Dean did? Or was he with Jack & Amara when they rebuilt the world?

Cas was already dead/dying even when he was talking to Jack, he was sort of in a different version of the 'Veil' per se. VERY wishy-washy, but basically he and Jack were on a different dream-plane that they were jolted to in the chaos of the disorganised no-Death world.

I think Cas, Rowena, Lucifer, Michael, etc. as beings who were killed after the snap is a bit ambiguous. Rowena and Lucifer, I think, as entities who were demonic-dead or Empty-level-dead pre-Snap probably went through the reincarnation Yes/No Death questionnaire. Cas and Michael might not have since they were technically 'alive' and human before the Snap. Regardless, I think they probably wouldn't remember the interaction even if they had it.

The reason the question happened to the Winchesters AND that they remember it is Main Character Syndrome... they were the only people left alive when Jack and Amara did a hard reset, and that honestly Death took time to chill/exposition at them because he likes them. Really. Despite all appearances. Or respects them enough to let them know what's gone down, anyway.

Metatextually, it was really just to reaffirm to the audience that Dean (and Sam) want to live, in contrast to 15.20 Carry On 😅

3. Did all the snapped people (Eileen, Adam, the Waywards, etc.) also go through the Death question-&-answer process but not remember it, or did Jack & Amara just send them back?

Snapped people were reset automatically! Normally the new-humans also wouldn't remember their interactions with Death/reapers, just like in canon lore when someone like Dean has a near-death experience.

I realise this whole section and various other lore reformation parts of the fic aren't SUPER clear on specific logistics but on some occasions I'm like, I've done enough info-dumping, I don't want to overwrite exposition. But if you think it's worth clarifying certain points let me know and I can try to do so!

For 15x22:

1. The twenty something blonde guy in sunglasses getting hot tea, is that Belphegor? sure sounds like it but I wanted to confirm.

Yep!

2. Since Death mentioned that Jack only resurrected the angels, demons, and monsters from the Empty who had enough of a soul, and since all the human souls from the Veil went to Heaven as confirmed by Kevin's presence, how exactly are Anna's human parents and Bela alive now?

Great question - 1) I SOMEHOW FORGOT ANNA'S PARENTS DIED? Complete screw up on my part, I don't know how that happened. I fixed this so it's her grandparents now. 2) Bela was sent to Hell as part of her deal, so I was assuming she was a demon by this point in canon (since it would be... MANY Hell-years since she died.) Therefore she had a 'human' enough demon soul to be put back as a human.

3. Oh, and the tall woman with the flyer in 15.22; who is this supposed to be? Hannah I’m guessing?

To be honest I didn't have anyone in particular in mind for that scene; it was kind of a catch-all for missing characters like, it COULD be Hannah. It could be Raphael. Hell, it could be Abbadon. I didn't want to do a full shot of every single person missing from the cast who had died (esp since like - we wouldn't know who they were anyway! Their bodies would be different). So this one is literally just fill-in-the-blank. But if I had to assign a character there I'd say it would probably be one of the more arrogant angels like Raphael or Uriel.

For 15x23:

1. How is Bobby in the Roadhouse with the gang? 10x17 seemed to imply the angels were about to throw him in the dungeons to punish him for helping Cas; did Ash hack him out of prison, or was he never imprisoned at all? Also, is Jack not surprised to see another Bobby in Heaven because the boys already told him there was another Bobby besides the one he knows from Apocalypseverse? (I was half-expecting him to comment about that and confuse Bobby).

Oh that's a great point! I think that's another sort of fill in the blank since it's been five years since 10.17... even if he was in prison of some kind, I think it's likely either Ash helped him get out in the same way he helped everyone else, and since the angels were extremely short-staffed I doubt getting Bobby suitably imprisoned/punished was their top priority. But honestly I'm not super clear on how the angels intended to punish Bobby, I don't think canon is clear either... like, We Just Don't Know.

Finally I'd like to know, has Sam proposed to Eileen yet by the end of the final episode? The script doesn't mention a ring on her finger, and as Sam's fiancee, I'd assume she'd also have carved her name on the table. Sam mentions the innuendos Dean has said "in the past year," so it's been a while since Jack's prayer scene, yet Cas says Dean & Claire's argument was the last time they spoke, and it doesn't seem likely to me that Dean wouldn't call Claire in a year given how close they are...

Nope! I think Sam is saying 'I'm going to marry her' as a declaration of certainty of his feelings and faith in the future, not neccessarily as something that immediately happens. With regards to 'in the past year', that referred to the period when Eileen was alive during s15 as well! I assume Dean did teasing off-screen (and I mean, he did plenty on-screen too.)

I honestly think that Sam and Dean are just very very busy in the aftermath of the events of the 15.20 reset, like they have to deal with the new world AND try to wrangle all these hunters into this new system of collaboration. I didn't put Eileen on the table because she isn't there in the finale and because I do think the Sam/Dean/Cas/Jack family unit was a bit more central and important to the show, but maybe they add her (and any possible kids, if they have any) later on. God, imagine generations of hunters and/or Winchesters carving on that table. Sacred Artefact...

(1) Ok that's all the questions I have. Again, so sorry to blow up your inbox - I really appreciate your willingness to clarify these things! If there are some things you'd rather not explain and leave ambiguous, I totally get that. And in spite of these aforementioned confusing parts, I still ADORE your fic and will continue to read it whenever I feel like re-"watching" how Supernatural really ended! Thank you so much!! .... (2) I’m SO sorry to overload u! I know I asked a lot and I didn’t mean to sound like a hater saying “none of ur story makes sense”; that’s not what I meant at all! If this was a regular good ol fix it fic I wouldn’t have said anything but since u said u wanted it to wrap up the show as replacement canon, I thought maybe I should point out places that didn’t line up. But take as MUCH time as you need! Good for you working to meet your deadlines; I hope you succeeded!! And again I really appreciate you taking the time to answer whenever you have time—absolutely no rush!! Have a GREAT Memorial Day Weekend!!!

Anon thank you SO SO much for all these questions, as you can see it really helped me identify problems or straight up errors in my work wrt continuity and I'm so happy that means I can improve it. If any of the answers weren't clear or you think I should modify the fic to make certain things clearer than they are right now (other than the things I said I'd fix in-text for sure) let me know! It's really been a pleasure answering them too, I'm sorry it took me so long to get around to it, I actually went back and proofed/edited the whole fic as part of adding some of these corrections in (and that took like... three weeks...) and as you said, it's very important to me to get it as true to canon as possible so - yeah, just, once again, thank you!! You're wonderful! ♥♥♥

#my fic #anonymous #ask #I should make fic-specific tags. someone remind me to go back and re-tag this blog with those sigh #every time I post on this blog I say that every single time #on round like. 20 of corrections now for this fic #post-posting #'goldenrod' revisions. laughable #we're easily on second cherry revisions now #the goldenrod revisions #my meta

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