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rocketturtle4 · 5 months

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Last Twilight, Growth, Change, Hope and most of all, Trust

because I adored this show, without reservation.

(I wrote this before realising quite how many people were unhappy with the ending but my thoughts stand)

My friend, @plantsarepeopletoo wrote in their post about ep 12 that

The story is saying hope is something worth chasing after.

This is something I emphatically agree with, and I want to add one more core premise that the show felt like it built on throughout

No matter how big change is, growth comes from the little moments when we trust.

This was a show *full* of big, the accident, the lost dreams of national competition, a year in jail, a sister’s death, a parent’s death, a parent’s divorce, an unplanned pregnancy and of course, blindness.

And yet,

This was a show full of tiny moments of growth, hard earned and barely celebrated, of what it was like to see clearly for just 10 seconds of a day. Of how to eat a plate of food without sight, of what it feels like to hold out your hand and trust someone to take it. What forgiveness feels like, voiced in small certain words.

We climbed mountains, and bought slippers, We ran away from home and we learnt to eat cake.

Big Moments

Small Moments

But most of all

Trust

And that was what we lost in episode 11 and that is what episode 12 had to rebuild.

Day thought that Mhok was the one person who trusted him to be okay by himself, even if just for a little while, Day saw him as an equal, a faen. That’s what he chose when he stepped over the marathon finish line. But Mhok wasn’t there with him, not completely. He wanted to carry all of Day’s needs as well as his own.

He didn’t share the nightmare

He didn’t share the job offer

He didn’t share his fear over the car accident

He didn’t trust Day.

And so Day ended things, firmly and with false certainty because he never wanted to be anyone’s burden. He wanted to be Mhok’s equal, and as things stood, Mhok couldn’t give him that.

Episode 12 (again as @plantsarepeopletoo points out) shows that even though the two have grown so much over the past 3 years, they still lack the trust because they’ve done the work separately and not together.

You see it in the way Mhok doesn’t speak until Day is already in the car.

Doesn’t speak until Day recognises his scent.

But once Day recognises him by scent alone, Mhok gives in and trusts enough to lean in and flirt, to show up and cook him food, to take him for suit fittings and cake tastings, to ask him to dance and then finally, to ask for a second chance.

Day’s trust is a more fragile thing. How can he know Mhok sees him as a whole person, trusts him, when Mhok picks up right where they left off, when he continues to pull out his chair and catch his arm to walk him, when he helps him with his jacket, and his food.

What if nothing has changed?

How can he know?

And he needs a push here, more than Mhok does, because of how his trust was broken, but Mum tells Day.

To be uncertain in love is the most normal thing of all, to step forward we must take a risk

To love, is to trust, and so, Day chooses to trust.

And for me, this was the most beautiful moment of all, and the most fulfilling ending I could have gotten.

For me this show held up, from start to finish.

It’s a show about learning to trust your family, your friends and most importantly yourself, no matter what life throws your way.

For those of you who feel that this doesn’t address what you perceive as the biggest flaws in the show, maybe it was Day’s Mum, or Day getting his Vision back, or the show choosing not to explicitly address Mhok’s trauma and abandonment issues, I am not saying you are wrong at all. For me, an explicit unpacking of those things wasn’t needed. They weren’t the threads I was holding onto.

Day’s mum learnt to see him as a whole person.

Mhok learnt to live independently, without someone relying on him.

Day’s vision was returned, an afterthought of the show, after he was already a whole, happy person.

None of these things were less for me.

Because every moment of this show was filled with so much more.

#last twilight #last twilight the series #I had a lot of feelings so here you go #rturts is wondering

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rocketturtle4 · 8 months

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Only Friends, Shipping Culture, Cross-Generational Differences, Themes and Endgame

Strap in, folks. This is a long one.

What finally pushed me to make this post was a very interesting discourse between @lurkingshan, @waitmyturtles, and @twig-tea here around the way this show has subverted norms to a lesser extent than first hoped and how the fans themselves, and the creator’s interactions with these fans, have impacted the creation and completion of the show, as well as the way themes built through the series may now feel less clear after the latest episode.

I wanted to offer my understanding and perspective because it differs somewhat, but it is also very much informed by this post and the larger Tumblr discourse around Only Friends and shipping culture that this show has sparked. I will note, for the record, that I have been much busier since about episode 5 of OF than I had been for the first episodes (or than I was for BMF), so I have missed a lot more of the fascinating discourse that this show has sparked than I would wish.

Let’s do this.

Shipping Culture

I had never heard of this before joining Tumblr this year (in May) despite watching 50 BLs before that, due to being completely disengaged from the actors as individuals prior to joining Tumblr, and while Tumblr has opened my eyes to how much fanservice is part of these people’s lives and jobs and the problems surrounding that phenomenon. I remain largely disengaged from the actors personally. I do not have Twitter, Tik Tok or Instagram, I rarely watch BTS and even my revelation that First is the most beautiful man ever to exist (and I say that as a person who is both aro and ace) has only got me to watch one First & Khao Armshare interview (The Eclipse one). I have also never purchased merch or event tickets so I am in fact, not a good fan in terms of profit making or engagement.

I do, however, love the shows an awful lot and may engage with BTS more once I have fewer things to watch…

All this to say is that my firsthand knowledge of such things is limited at best, but I am still here to say:

I think Only Friends is doing excellent things here, even if all the ‘couples’ end up together.

Is it burning them to the ground like so many hoped? No, but I have watched 47 Thai BLs at this stage and not many of them explored relationships beyond the pairs in any way, shape or form, and OF HAS DONE THAT.

Of our main six characters, NONE of them have only kissed their “other half.” They’ve literally all at least made out with one other person from the core six, and thus far Mew, Boston and Nick have ALSO kissed other people.

This is, in my humble opinion, A PRETTY BIG DEAL.

I am currently watching Not Me (for the first time, haven’t finished, no spoilers please), and I have been informed somewhat reliably that the original novel included a Gram/Black plotline that was cut/altered (to Gram/Eugene/Black love triangle), and I posit that was due in part because they couldn’t have Gun even KISSING Mond even if he was also kissing Off. Black and White would have been a great way to shift things even a little by having the branded pair be together while ALSO having half the brand with someone else at the SAME TIME. Can you imagine??

And yet as recently as 2021 that didn’t happen.

Sometimes change takes time and patience and I think OF is doing really good work, even if it doesn’t go as far as we might wish.

EVEN IF all our branded pairs end up together unsubverted (which is not what I am hoping for but EVEN IF), this show will have still begun paving the way for more varied storylines and pairings in shows

The Clash of Generational Lenses

Speaking of the end game, lets talk about a little thing called hope.

I had a very interesting discourse back around, hmmm episode 6, with @shouldiusemyname and @plantsarepeopletoo , about the sheer confusion I felt about Tumblr’s idea that every one of these characters should end up apart simply because they’d done bad things or something? (this is extremely generalized. I was missing a lot of nuance from both Tumblr and my own lens hence the unpacking then and now).

Now I went into this show fully prepared for this to end sadly and I largely viewed this expectation of sad as everyone ending up broken up and alone. I don’t normally watch sad by choice, but I was willing to try this one because Jojo’s stories are SO beautifully compelling that I knew it would be worth the journey. I have watched Love of Siam (not Jojo but sad) and Gay Okay Bangkok (complicated), two very different shows reflective of their times and their creators and from the beginning, Only Friends did not feel like those (although the links to Gay Okay Bangkok and the exploration of real queer relationships has been fascinating and I am very glad I watched that one before OF).

So why was there this, almost prescribed hopelessness, being projected onto these very young characters who were just in the process of finding themselves? Why were these young people’s flaws and choices so linked to the idea that they would end up alone?

Now @shouldiusemyname told me the following (in the context of a much wider discourse):

Ahhh I like this cos this is something I take very much for granted and I think it’s a generational gap thing. This is a reaction to the way we were brought up (again generalizing cos sometimes it’s necessary). There was no alternative to monogamy and being queer meant that you can’t have that for 2 reasons: 1. Law doesn’t allow 2. Socially unacceptable cos being gay was seen as what kind of sex you were having as opposed to relationships. If you don’t have the gay sex, you’re not gay. This is also the reason for being anti het norm. We couldn’t have that so we needed to find the alternative and have ALL of it.

We were both generalizing A LOT, but this idea was MIND BLOWING to me at the time.

(For the record I am born late 1990s, Shouldiusemyname is born early 1980s (and Plantsarepeopletoo is born late 80s so we have variety covered lol!))

Because while, (as @waitmyturtles for example has pointed out on multiple occasions) the imposition of purity culture and monogamy on queer culture (and in general) is wrong, the idea that no queer people are desiring commitment or monogamy is also wrong. (I am not here suggesting that even in an ideal world where queer people TRULY HAD equal rights they would magically all want monogamous long-term relationships because that’s just not true. In addition hets regularly oppose the het norm as well, long-term monogamous relationships are unwanted by many of them).

I come from a strong biological background (which unequivocally supports more than two sexes and more than two genders, do not come back here and make this about that, got it!) and am currently doing a PhD in Palaeontology so a lot of my relationship understanding is informed by a wider understanding of breeding, monogamy and nonmonogamy in reproduction across the animal and plant kingdoms just by exposure (and yes reproduction in the plant kingdom is very much included, some plants have both male and female parts, it’s fascinating!). And monogamy is present in a hugely wide range of species, it’s not soley something humans came up with just because of religious norms. Addtionally, there is the development of consistent monogamous and/or committed polygamous relationships (historically, most commonly men with multiple wives) across a huge number of cultures throughout history largely for the fostering of children. Most of this influence has been more irrelevant for the queer community because of their inability to produce children in monogamous pairs*, and children are a huge sticking point for the NEED for long-term stable relationships. So, without this sticking point (combined with the aforementioned factors around law and discrimination), relationships are viewed as less permanent. Thus, I had to unpack my own casual assumptions that relationships normally have a long-term goal. (*Generalizing hugely, obviously there are lots of variations that can produce biological children without assistance, but these points most strongly apply to same-sex relationships)

For example, I find the way this plays out in a show like What Did You Eat Yesterday particularly fascinating, and have realized since starting Season 2 that I had missed a lot of this subtext in the first season because, to me, the idea that the central couple would stay and grow old together was a given. PARTLY because of monogamous cultural lenses, but ALSO because they loved each other and wanted to be together, so why wouldn’t they assume they would stay and grow old together?

I also realized that I am further sheltered in this mindset by not just my age but by the acceptance of my wider family of non-marriage as a concept (or even just not having to have children) as normal and okay. My Grandfather (in his 80s) is one of 10 children and has multiple siblings (my great uncles/aunts) who 1 never married or 2 married but chose never to have children. While I am not going to pretend that my uncles/aunts were never judged for such things, that judgment was NEVER part of my upbringing and we visited my single and/or childless great-uncles just as often as those with children.

I seem to have gotten sidetracked…What is the wider point I am making here?

Ah yes

Only Friends is so interesting because it’s shot like it’s set in the 80s & 90s, before the turn of the millennia, with so much homage paid to the queer stories and reality that the youth of this time grew up with. But the generational change that the last two decades or so have brought is inarguably huge, and so these characters, all born after the turn of the century, are not truly from the world that, in some ways, it looks like they’ve been placed into. @wen-kexing-apologist did an extremely comprehensive post about gay cruising culture and Boston that was extremely relevant to his character and the story being told, but it also was a specific throwback to something that is different in the 2020s. Not because people like Boston don’t exist, but because the turn of the century brought with it so many things that make this exact thing more complicated.

And OF has been showing us why! Surveillance, SO MUCH surveillance, every character has been recorded or recorded other characters or shared recordings of other characters, sometimes all of the above, and this surveillance does have a deep impact on the relationships today’s young people engage in! Not just the queer community but all young people of today are under near constant scrutiny and surveillance, and the young people born in the last couple decades have grown up like this, queer or not.

One last thing to mention here is the specific, observable, phenomenon that has been going on in Thailand, it is clear when you look at media like Love of Siam (2008) and compare it to ITSAY (2020) (which I haven’t even seen yet gah but I still know this is a great example). The phenomenon of BL, for all its flaws, has wrought change in the psyche and culture of the people of Thailand, ESPECIALLY the young people, and this is absolutely informing our six main characters views on relationships because they would have gone through high school with this as a major part of their culture.

Themes and Endgame: I Think Hope is the Point

All this draws me back into how I think OF will end, because it’s been at the heart of the show throughout, and that is hopefully, Only Friends will end hopefully.

Jojo has (I believe) stated outright that his primary goal for this show was to represent his community in truth, the messy non-het non-monogamy of queer youths in their 20s has been playing out across our screens, but the thing that has been keeping my attention riveted on Only Friends is the heart of it all.

The journeys of growth and discovery on this show have been magnificent. @thegalwhorants has been pointing out the intentional parallels of language this show has been using to highlight some of that growth, and that is just one very interesting fraction of the way this show has used words, music (@plantsarepeopletoo), colours, styles and more to represent the transformation characters are going through as they grow into themselves before our eyes.

A few very brief examples:

Mew’s switch to wearing Ray’s wardrobe when he is trying not to care but cares so much about Top.

Ray’s changed wardrobe to match the style Sand picked out for him even as he tried to choose Mew and couldn’t, because he’s already moved on, even when he couldn’t accept it.

Nick’s whole makeover to catch Boston’s attention later even catching Dan’s attention and the way that in that scene with Boston outside in ep10, Nick had returned to his shorts and t-shirt because he finally felt seen the way he sees Boston.

One’s sense of self is often built in part, around their relationships (family, friends, sexual and romantic), ESPECIALLY in collectivist cultures, and so much of our 20s involves growing and learning who you are through these relationships. I have seen arguing about toxic friendship groups and how they all need to just let each other go, and maybe that is the best endgame, I don’t know. Sometimes, growing together can be so much stronger, and sometimes, growing apart is the only way to move forward.

But these last two eps in particular (but honestly every moment of this show) have left me with the feeling that hope is the point. Because things HAVE changed, the world is moving and the things possible in 2023 are often utterly unthinkable to the youth of the 1980s, 1990s and before. The world is growing, acceptance and love have always been there but, surveillance or no, it’s so much easier to find now.

To be queer is no longer to be isolated, not in the way it once was, it is not a sentence of aloneness. Nor a stamp of irrevocable pain. Are things good now? HECK NO, you look at any statistic: homelessness, mental health, suicide rate, poverty; Being queer makes your life harder.

No matter how hard you try things might get worse and while that’s true for all people, queerness compounds that and often makes the consequences of your choices harder through isolation.

But the isolation is less now and I think OF wants to show that

You may do many things and sometimes these things will hurt no matter how careful you are, Not caring isn’t the point, Not feeling isn’t the point, God every character on this show feels so MUCH

This episode had moments of complete heartbreak

Complete regret

And complete Joy

And there is much more still to come

So when I think about endgame, I think about hope, and the lessening of isolation for all, and this does not mean 3 perfectly happy couples in perfect monogamous relationships wrapped up with a neat little bow, It means six individuals who have learned and grown through friendship and love, this may mean healed relationships, it may not, this may mean healed friendships, it may not. (It may mean Top, Mew and Boeing in a throuple but maybe I’m the only one hoping for that lol). We’ve clearly got more drama and pain to come but I am confident now that things will end with hope.

I do not know how Jojo and co will show that, but I trust them, and I can’t wait to find out.

#ofts #only friends the series #only friends #onlyft #rturts is wondering #only friends meta #ofts meta #roc goes haywire over only friends

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rocketturtle4 · 3 months

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This was not a parallel I expected to get today

...but I'm not complaining

#city of stars #city of stars the series #spoilers #ep 8 #city of stars ep 8 #rturts is wondering

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rocketturtle4 · 27 days

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Matt giving Q literal shade is one of my favourite TV moments of all time

#We Are #We Are the series #rturts is wondering #roc shots

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rocketturtle4 · 9 months

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I'm adoring the heart of Only Friends

I gotta admit I was a bit unsure going into this show how much heart our genuinely messy queer Jojo show was going to have. But every episode I get more blown away, because along with our fun mess, we are getting so much heart.

Heart is my personal favourite part of the three Jojo shows I've seen prior to this (Gay OK Bangkok, The Warp Effect and 3 Will Be Free) and OF is absolutely sticking with the trend.

What I mean by heart, fyi, is the you can be empathetic and sympathetic to every single character because Jojo is good at making his characters HUMAN, rather than making heroes and villians.

(You get to wish Ray would speak up, while wishing Sand would ASK. You get to understand that Ray can't speak because he doesn't think he's important to Sand, and that Sand can't ask because Ray has already said their just friends, all the while forgetting that Ray only says that because Sand insisted on it first.)

(You get to know that Mew called Boston for advice, maybe because what he wanted wasn't advice, but a final push because he's already gone over Top and he just want's someone to say "Yes you should do this" and he knew Boston would say it. and Boston gives good advice: go on, have fun, he won't get bored and use protection! even while he is wondering how the fuck he got to this point)

(You get to watch Nick try so hard for Boston, in every way he can think of. He looks so content in Boston's arms and yet he looks so broken at Ray's warning because he ALREADY KNOWS and he considers it far too late.)

You get to know about Boston's blackmail, and Nick's blackmail. You get to know about Top's inability to sleep and Ray's inability to stop drinking. You get to know the Ray grew up alone while Sand grew up surrounded. You get to understand that even as Ray moves on from his romantic feelings for Mew, Mew will remain an important part of his life, because having someone as your emergency contact isn't erased just because you're no longer in love with them. You get to know Top regrets sleeping with Boston, and that he genuinely cares about Mew even as you know that Mew is about to consider Top's history as a huge betrayal.

Every single episode reveals pieces of these characters which makes my heart ache and my understanding grow.

It also makes my brain burn because we're only 5 episodes in and there's so much more to come...

and I love it.

Because putting all my heart and soul into these characters is safe, not because anything is guaranteed to end well, tied up in a neat little bow, but because their choices are going to make sense, their choices are going to be motivated by empathy and sympathy and love, but also anger and hate and lust and jealousy. Because these characters are human, young adults in their 20s, and humans are the sum of so many complicated life experiences.

So Jojo's shows are special, because they're full of humans. And humans are special because they are full of heart.

and that's what I'm loving most about Only Friends.

#ofts #only friends the series #only friends #onlyft #roc goes haywire over only friends #rturts is wondering #jojo tichakorn #I have a lot of feelings and I love that about this show

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rocketturtle4 · 11 months

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Be My Favorite - When is the present actually the future?

I’m pretty sure writing this is about to consume my entire Saturday but by the time I wake up tomorrow La Pluie will have been out for 6 hours and my Sunday brain will have other things to think about! (it actually only took about half of it so I'm considering that a win)

I have read through my Tumblr feed for people’s thoughts on the latest Be My Favorite episode and I absolutely have to share because I found that while ideas and themes explored mirrored my own thoughts, the conclusions people were putting forth about where the show might be going were completely different.

(Posts I don't specifically reference in this but that which I definitely read and you should too include @syrena-del-mar and @shouldiusemyname here and @chickenstrangers here )

Also shoutout to @bengiyo because I used your sarge watches to reduce how much I had to go back and watch things.

LETS CLOWN

(am I, am I using it right? I have so many questions about the LINGO and I don’t know who to ask)

My Hypothesis: Kawi is going to be faced with the ultimate choice of remaining in the past or the present when the crystal ball runs out of charge and he will choose to remain in the past where he must face his uncertain future.

Okay, stay with me please

Question 1: When is Kawi actually in the present?

Last week I made a throw away post about the time travel being a metaphor for being unable to skip ahead in life without consequences. In particular this scene (a flashback at the very end of episode 4):

Got my brain thinking about how Kawi and the people around him freeze in their character development whenever he jumps forward, so maybe his present is actually in the past.

EVIDENCE

Timeline 1: OG Future

In this timeline Kawi essentially froze the moment the crystal ball was broken. In the OG Future he is distantly acquainted with classmates, sad for the death of his father (from whom he was distant), distant from Max and has never drunk any alcohol. This is all directly reflective of where he was at the time he broke the crystal ball.

Timeline 2: Future 2 – He’s Pisaengs best man

In this timeline he’s been back in the past, and acted very unlike himself because he assumes he's dreaming. At the end of this timeline he ends up in the very early stages of becoming Piseang’s bestie. We have not yet had serious (feelings) tension between Piseang and Kawi, only a single night of bonding and I would argue that in this particular future timeline, Piseang is not in love with Kawi. He has become a platonic bestie (something that could never happen without the time skip) because these were the emotions Kawi and Piseang had for each other in the past even if these were pretty fledgling emotions when Kawi left. (Also, Kawi now drinks heavily, something he did for the first time in this immediate past when he thought it was a dream).

Timeline 3: Future 3: Piseang is in love with him and abandons his own wedding.

In the past Kawi is more intentional with his actions to change things. We also see his confusion around how he became Piseangs best man because as Kawi continues to grow and learn this option doesn’t make sense (But as a frozen version of the previous past's future…) (I'm losing track of the tense I can feel it)

In this timeline we have only progressed slightly further through the past but all the development was around Kawi and Piseang and Piseang’s growing feelings (Piseang getting Kawi the plushie happens in this Future’s linked Past). And we come forward to Piseang finally giving into his feelings and kissing Kawi. This scene is very similar to Piseang almost kissing Kawi in the past in the following episode (episode 3) when they fall over because in Piseang’s arc these things happened at a pretty similar point in time, its just that in this future he was frozen at his point of realization until Kawi’s consciousness returned to his body on the morning of Piseang’s wedding. He could only act after Kawi was back to being old!Kawi, because of things being frozen.

Timeline 4: He’s Famous and it’s a mess

In the linked past here, Kawi has JUST debuted as a lead singer, has turned down Piseang kindly but Piseang has made his devotion clear, has decided to date Pear ‘because he’s in love with her’ BUT Pear is feeling uncertain about her place in Kawi’s life (evidence: both the bar scene with Not, and the hospital scene) and is friends with Max again. (Also I'm not sure if I already linked @lurkingshans post with Kawi 'interupting his own growth arc midstream.' it definitely kicked my brain into gear)

In the future he is a famous singer, distant but close to Piseang, and friends with Max (why has Max stuck with him huh?) also Not and Pear and Kwan provide, in my opinion, strong evidence for their frozenness because we’ve just seen in the past that Not has feelings for Pear and Kwan has feelings for Not, and this is the exact feelings scenario we get in the future. There has been no change. They're frozen in their feelings from 12 years ago.

We also have had posts about the idea that Kawi has gotten drunk and kissed Piseang multiple times through this jump. (Which makes perfect sense if you freeze his character at this exact point of uncertain feelings that are being ignored) (@piningintrovert here) (also this post where for some reason my @ won't let me tag dropthedemiurge IM SORRY) (also here) @becomingabeing

Also his alcoholism is spiralling because he has not learnt anything about drinking responsibly in the (mere days/weeks) it’s been since episode 1 started (and alcoholism is definitely more complicated, but in this specific context you have an individual that’s just started drinking heavily because they’ve discovered alcohol and their life is super confusing and these habits aren't checked or changed because his growth is frozen, there are simply the consequences) (not saying this is the case just the case in the context of this theory)

Counterpoint

Kawi’s dad has survived surgery in the past but is still dead in the future.

I don’t necessarily think this is strong evidence against my point but it’s worth mentioning.

Question 2:

How does Kawi’s Memory Work in these Futures?

This is a separate thread but it’s related to my theory because in Timeline’s 2 & 3, Kawi appeared to have no memory of the intervening years. (Inference: He hasn't really lived them)

Timeline 4 was a little different but the memories seemed to need specific triggers (speaking aloud, seeing a person) to come back. We saw in his arguments with Pear and Piseang that he DID seem to gain and settle into his memories more as he thought about the intervening past (intervening past = the time between when he left the past and arrived in Future 4).

We see 2 different flashbacks of the ‘Pear leave’s Kawi’ moments. 1 seemed to be Kawi remembering (trigger is when he sees Pear for the first time). 2 seems to be Piseangs own memories (flashbacks are always so frustrating because who is remembering? Is Kawi remembering this too?.

Kawi also just slips into being less jaded and work focused than his (frozen) future self apparently is. (Sudden carfree metaphorical ocean romp definitely relevant here)

ALSO Kawi freaks out about his own memory in episode 7 3/4 10.30 (re Piseang’s new number) (this almost felt like young!Kawi was overlayed with old!Kawi and so we were getting conflicting reasons for the memory lapse (is he sick? did he call Piseangs old number as young!Kawi without thinking?)

Counterpoint

The scene at the very end of episode 7 threw a small but solid spanner in the works of my brain because when does this scene take place? Piseang says eight years, original jump forward was 12 (I think) so therefor this is in the intervening years. Which I kind of thought of as frozen/fairly nonexistent (Except specifically when a character thinks about them) so I am not sure how this scene fits in.

This could be something Kawi will specifically think about before going back in time

(see this post for more clowning @sparklyeyedhimbo)

(side note, his jacket looks super similar to the flashback jacket in this counterpoint scene - it's not the same one though)

How old is Kawi’s brain?

I also made a throw away post about this last week, I have no clearer thoughts on this except that it’s intriguing to ask how old the Kawi traversing between the past and the future actually is? This post is so long I’m just going to link it. It’s not very fleshed out.

Side Point

One thing that floated into my brain while thinking about all this was the recent Step By Step episode and the dissatisfaction everyone felt about the time skips. So often used as a means of progressing a characters life while rarely showing meaningful character growth.

Could this whole show be a commentary on time skips and their conceptual flaws as a means of fast-tracking character growth?

I think it’s a bit of a reach, but I also don’t tend to read into directors/creators intentions as much so I thought I’d put it out there for people to chew over.

Additional hypotheses/questions I’m chewing on:

Q: Will his dad survive if he chooses to stay in the past to take care of him?

Q: How many sets of memories does he have, does he remember any of the intervening past between main past timeline and future 2 and main past timeline and future 3? Are the memories getting overlayed?

Conclusion

As @lurkingshan pointed out, Kawi interrupts his character growth when he jumps forward in time. We have to go back in time to keep growing. Yet we’ve gone back and forward and back and forward 4 times now and the future is always messy because the characters can’t live on without change for 12 years and still grow together. I could absolutely see the show choosing to go in the direction put forth by @wen-kexing-apologist and @stuffnonsenseandotherthings here also @lurkingshan and @ginnymoonbeam have interesting thoughts about Kawi having to stop trying to change the future and live with his choices to move forward.

It's just that I think he is going to do that in the past giving up his chance to jump forward without growth. Because he has to choose not to know where he is going, to truly live in the present.

Savy?

(please point out all the holes in my theory, I am so invested I need some PERSPECTIVE)

#be my favorite #be my favorite meta #be my favorite time travel #be my favorite the sereis #rturts is wondering

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rocketturtle4 · 10 months

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Aceness in BL: Let’s go for a Ramble

(I made this post soon after Be My Favorite finished but shadowbanning has delayed the posting) - I'm Freeee (@plantsarepeopletoo @shouldiusemyname)

So, I’ve been thinking more and more about aceness in BL (mainly BL anyway), and to get my thought’s in order I thought I’d make a post.

This post is NOT intended as a blanket rule in literally any context. It is specifically about how 1. I frame aceness in my head based on very surface level research and my own experience and how 2. I apply that to a few characters (In BL) who, to me, have felt acespec.

This post will cover

A brief overview of how I understand the acespectrum (with reference to aesthetic, romantic and sexual attraction)

How I view demisexuality as a kind of doorway (with reference to my own deminess)

How I feel five characters (Ae from Love by Chance, Arthrit from SOTUS & SOTUS S, Kat from The Warp Effect (yes not BL but whatevs), Kawi from Be My Favorite and Khai from the Warp Effect) might fall on these spectrums. (THIS WILL INCLUDE SPOILERS)

A wrap up on acepectrum, transient identities, and labels

First Up the Ace-Spectrum!

(How I frame aceness in my head)

Aesthetic attraction = I really want to just stare at this person, they so pretty

Romantic attraction = I want to have this person with me, I want to hold them close and see them daily and talk to them about everything, also I want to cuddle and sleep together (maybe idk this is the attraction I am vaguest on)

Sexual attraction = I want to have sex with this person, I want to personally bang this person, I stare at this person and think about what it would be like to kiss them with tongue and push them against walls and have them underneath/on top of me. (This isn’t necessarily at like 100% all the time I think)

Kapish?

Romantic and Sexual attraction are both spectrums (obvs) and in my head they go from

Allo (100%) <------- to --------> Ace/Aro (0%) with the percentage reflective of how frequently you find people attractive, (I don’t think 100% is everybody all the time though).

So theoretically anyone not at 100% for either romantic or sexual attraction might identify as acespec, though I IMAGINE most people over perhaps, 30% feel attraction often enough that they don’t consider it, so for headcannon purposes I’m considering under 30% as ace or aro.

Sometimes people might consider themselves grey-ace (or grey-aro) if they fall within the more middling but still low percentages (say 15-50%,) So they experience attraction to individuals on occasion, but less frequently than typical. (But, again any label that people identify with is true for them)

Framing Demisexuality as a doorway

Demisexuality is, to me (in brief), not experiencing sexual attraction prior to the development of strong emotional/intellectual/romantic feelings (also can feel like a significant jump rather than completely 0-100, for me it’s almost like a switch on/off, but it can be gradual too)

Demiromantic people don’t experience romantic feelings for people unless there’s a strong emotional bond in place. (Same caveats as above)

The demi-doorway doesn’t automatically open the moment bonds/romantic feelings are developed, it’s simply that these feelings DON’T occur without the bond first. An alloromantic demisexual person MAY develop sexual feelings for someone they like romantically, but they also may not.

Personally, I consider myself demisexual and demiromantic because (based on 1.5 data points (data points = people), which is really not enough evidence) after bonds are formed both my romantic and sexual interest about a specific person jump up to allo. My deminess also feels tied to the way the changing/wavering of these emotional bonds also closes the door really quickly?? (So I can become abruptly not attracted to someone anymore if my romantic feelings/emotions are gone/destabilised, let me tell you it is weird to experience)

The lines around characters and actors and attraction gets all blurry too. Kind of like there’s a window in my door(s) that can be open or shut, but I can always look through it? (IDK how this metaphor is holding up)

For example, here’s some arbitrary categorites:

1. People are nice looking because everybody is nice looking (e.g., most people)

2. Aesthetic attraction (let me stare) e.g., Jean from The Warp Effect or Ayan from The Eclipse

3. Aesthetic attraction but more?? E.g., Joong (Joong is pretty, VERY PRETTY. But it’s still not really sexual attraction…I just want to stare at him…extra hard…and if he WANTED to fuck me…I mean for science…but I still don’t really WANT to??)

4. First. E.g., AM I EVEN ACE/ARO WHAT IS THIS SORCERY??

Clear as mud I’m sure.

Ace people can also dislike sex, be sex repulsed, enjoy watching, and whatever else without it emphasising or erasing their aceness, since it’s about sexual attraction to an individual more than anything else.

In a similar way you can also be sex repulsed or dislike sex or dislike aspects of sex without automatically being ace.

ALSO Demispec people may experience full (e.g. 100%) romantic/sexual feelings once the door is open without the caveats that I listed (about emotional instability) and this in NO WAY erases their aceness (or their deminess). There is also something to be said for the different ways the emotional bonds are formed/feelings are triggered. My two data points (attraction to people) were both triggered by strong intellectual connections.

ALSO acespec (which includes all aro/ace/demi people FTR) people can have gender specific (or non-specific) orientations as well (e.g. homoromantic asexual or aromantic pansexual or even biromantic bi-grey-ace).

Examples from Thailand BL/QL in my headcannon

I’m only talking about allo/ace/demi here, no gender-(non)-specific orientations.

Ae (Love By Chance) alloromantic demisexual (through the door 100%)

Ae is, I think, a pretty classic example of the most common view of demisexuality. He experiences romantic feelings for someone (idk if it’s the first time for this) and then slowly realises he’s sexually attracted to said person and goes a bit crazy because he doesn’t quite know what his feelings mean because he’s never experienced them before and, well, he’s a horndog (I love Ae and this depiction for the record) his demisexuality is absolutely a gateway to 100% sexual interest!

Some signs of his aceness might include his lack of interest in sex as commented on by his roommate and his confusion over the feelings he’s experiencing for the first time because they’re outside of his frame of experience. Also his sexual feelings seem to take a while to develop, after his crush has begun.

(I’m much less certain about romantic orientation here because we don’t know if he’s had crushes before (without wanting sex) and also he’s only 18, so even if he hasn’t doesn’t mean he’s arospec)

Arthrit (SOTUS & SOTUS S) Alloromantic demisexual (but different!!)

Arthrit seems alloromantic, in his previous feelings for his childhood friend and his clearly developing romantic feelings for Kong.

Arthit’s aceness is less clear cut than Ae’s because even after he develops sexual feelings (through the demidoor) he doesn’t experience allo sexual attraction as strongly as someone like Ae. I found a lot of his reactions to the relationship ups and downs in SOTUS S were very relatable (and prompted my first ever long post lol click for way more info on this) because of how Arthrit’s desire for sex (or sexual touch) seem to waver with the relationship stability. This is not about being uncomfortable with Kong exactly, but more about how even after they’re technically on an even keel and Kong’s sharing his bed and apartment, Arthit still seems uncomfortable with some of his sexual advances. While LATER after they’ve properly talked about it, he goes back to leaning into Kongs space and making flirty eyebrows.

So his deminess kind of means his aceness is variable even through the demidoor, like the door is wavering between open and closed. But it also doesn’t ever feel like his romantic feelings for Kong waver, just that the unstable grounding of their relationship boundaries lead to emotional instability which effect his sexual interest.

(Because I will take every excuse to use my Arthrit screenshots)

Kat in The Warp Effect (aromantic allosexual)

Honestly, Kat being Aro seemed basically canon during my viewing of The Warp Effect. She shows essentially no evidence of romantic feelings for anyone the whole series. (Though obvs people can want and have sex without wanting relationships and not be aro)

While Kat later tells Alex that she likes him (and tells Jean too) I don’t really feel like this mucks with the head-canon for a few reasons:

Kat is shown to be pretty monogamous when in sexual relationships with people even as she want’s no strings (she tells Alex he’s the only one she is currently having sex with (I think), she later tells Captain Asshole this and then later tells Tony this).

Thanks to Captain Asshole she begins to feel unsafe with the way she lives her life.

She initially wants to commit to Alex as the person she is most comfortable with, but we are not really shown any evidence of romantic feelings, just a desire for commitment.

She seems to reach a similar sort of balance with Tony in the OG Warp Timeline, but there still (to me) isn’t really evidence of romantic feelings

Aro people can, after all, want a committed and/or monogamous relationship.

Kawi in Be My Favorite (Alloromatic Asexual (not Demi IMO))

The reason I think he’s ace rather than demi is more about the language he uses even after he’s in love with Piseang (please see my thoughts about ace-kawi coding in ep 10 for more details if you're curious). Even after this wasn’t made explicit by the narrative, I stand by my thoughts around his lack of interest in sex in general. (As well as the coding in ep12 of him trying the rollercoaster and not liking it). It didn’t really feel to me like he gained sexual feelings for Piseang (unlike the vibes I personally got from Arthrit even if they wavered), more than he tried sex and enjoyed it enough to participate again in the future because he loved and felt comfortable with Piseang.

If you feel ambivalent about playing tennis, but your partner really likes playing tennis than maybe you make a point of playing tennis regularly even if it’s not something you’d think about doing on your own, because playing tennis with your partner is fun you know?

Of course, if tennis makes you feel icky, or really bored, you many not ever want to play it even if your partner enjoys it.

Khai in Theory of Love (demiromantic allosexual)

So Khai is my most recent addition to this post given I just finished ToL but he was so demiromantic it crushed me into pieces so he gets to be included! ways Khai feels demirom:

His confused realisation of feelings when he talks to his Phi at the beach.

He likes to keep things uncomplicated with the girls he’s seeing because he doesn’t do relationships.

He actually tries to take his relationships seriously but just never really seemed to genuinely want the romance.

Even after he realises he has romantic feelings for Third, when he returns back to him (after the beach reflection) he notices his sexual attraction more easily than his romantic feelings.

His confusion over how much he hurt when Third seemed to be choosing Un over him, and how it was the first time he realised how much Third must have been hurting because he’d never felt like this before.

The entirety of Ep12 with Third telling Khai what he feels isn't love (because Third has seen time and time again that Khai hasn't loved anyone before). Khai's attempts to prove himself even though he really understand what loving someone means, even as he follows his emotions, and tries hard to be “better” for Third because he does love Third, he chooses Third, he changes for Third, he cries for Third.

He also curls up in his room watching romantic movies for multiple days because Third tells him that what he's feeling isn't love and if it isn't then what is?)

Very relatable and also owie ouchie my brokenness feelings.

Lack of data points makes it tricky:

There are probably lots of other characters that COULD fall into a-spectrum, (just as there are reasons why these characters might not) but the thing I find the trickiest to navigate (for my headcanons) is lack of data points. Most characters in BL are in highschool/college, and this, combined with a desire for lack of messiness in story structure, means characters are often experiencing feelings ‘for the first time.’ Long term pining, childhood crushes, and first attraction to the same gender, all come into play and make evidence muddy and lacking a concrete foundation, from which to draw conclusions.

We can’t ask characters about their preferences, previous feelings, levels of emotion etc. so in my opinion conclusions can’t be drawn, only inferences made.

I don’t have a problem with anyone headcannoning these characters as not acespec.

I don’t have a problem with anyone headcannoning other characters as acespec.

Identities, Transience and Labelling

In discussing this post and my own framework with a couple of people I wanted to add a bit more of my personal experience with the ace label and the ace spectrum. Because the thing about both ace-ness and allo-ness is that they’re not equal all the time. Some people experience sexual attraction first or more frequently and may only experience romantic feelings later or less frequently. Some people feel romantic attraction before sexual, but only sometimes and sometimes people feel both at once and straight away, or both at once but only later on…

The romantic and sexual attraction spectrums are spectrums that everybody exists on and in existing on a spectrum some people have a firm placement and others a shifting one.

People who are ace-identified are typically those who have felt meaningfully different from their peers in the level and/or frequency of experiencing any sexual attraction and/or any romantic attraction and whose attraction is close to zero for one or both of those spectrums. They have thus sought out explanations for their difference and found the ace labels. Demi-ness, on either spectrum, then relates more to the way emotional(/intellectual) bonds, positive or negative, directly impact your ability to feel romantic or sexual attraction.

In the context of TV, for me, it’s picking up a photo of a character you love and being confused when they don’t seem right anymore. Its looking at a cast of beautiful humans and not really feeling anything but awe at their acting. It’s forgetting that characters were shirtless until the gifs show up on your dash the next day. It’s reading the definition of chemistry and not really understanding what it means. It’s not realising that there’s a difference between kisses where the lips move and kisses where they don’t because the way the characters talk and stand and stare means so much more. It’s so many things until you must notice because what you’re seeing and noticing and caring about is just…not the same as the things other people are seeing, noticing and caring about.

In the real world it’s messier, because aceness is sometimes framed as only 0%. Experiencing emotions outside of 0% can make the label feel hard to keep, or wrong or mismatched:

My 16-year-old-self called herself Asexual and was relieved to have found a reason why she felt so weird, even if it didn't quite fit right.

My 18-year-old-self called herself maybe-bi because both boys and girls can be pretty to look at, and this must be what crushes are right?

My 20-year-old-self called herself Asexual again (even though it still didn't fit right) because she’d tried things with one of these apparent crushes and it just felt…weird.

My 22-year-old-self called herself maybe straight afterall because she dreamed about kissing someone for the first time and that person was a boy.

My 24-year-old-self picked up demisexual and clung to it like a lifeline because why else would her attraction just be…gone. Was I broken?

My 25-year-old-self discovered demiromantic was also a label and felt like things finally made sense.

But what’s important to know is that at no point between finding the asexual label at 16 to finding the aromantic label at 25, was I not aro/ace. And that if I had settled on a non-aspec label after any one of my identity-questioning experiences, it wouldn’t have made me a liar at any age or negated the experience of other aspec people in any way.

Because what my 25-year-old-self now understands is that labels aren’t there to put you in a box and squeeze you into shape, nor are labels there to lay across your shoulders and weigh you down with their expectations.

The labels are a lifeline, a hand reaching out, a voice whispering in the darkness…

You are not, and have never been alone.

So, for me at least, to label characters as this or that, is not to box them in, instead it is pointing and gasping, look, look, that one is like me…or maybe, look, look, that one is like you.

When a character acts the way I would, thinks the way I would, talks the way I would I am again reminded that,

I are not, and have never been alone.

So please, label away, I don’t mind if we pick different labels. I just like that I can share my labels with you.