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mallowstep · 3 years

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Genetics ask! I know that male torties/torbies are very rare and caused by a genetic mutation, but with those who do exist, are there any prerequisites with their parents? I’m assuming they’d have to carry the red gene since tortoiseshell is one red, one not-red, but I barely know anything. And based on this, is it better to just headcanon cats like Redtail as biologically female?

alright! hello, anon.

since i had to do more research than usual for this one, reminder that:

i am not an expert. i can and will be wrong. you can find my self-corrections under #corrections, but those are only things i or others have noticed, and that i've had the time to write a correction to and explain.

disclaimers out of the way, let's talk about tortie toms. (and torbie toms, and calico toms, it's all the same deal.)

if you know how ginger works, you can skip the next few paragraphs.

orange (ginger, red, etc.) is sex-linked in cats. what this means is that the gene that causes orange cats is on the x chromosome. it is also codominant, which means that having an orange x chromosome (Xo) and a non-orange x chromosome (X) is not black or orange, but both.

basically:

X or XX: black

Xo or XoXo: orange

XXo: tortoiseshell

yeah?

now, for the rest of this post, i'm going to be writing O and o instead of Xo and X because it's one less character and i don't run the risk of putting three x chromosomes together.

okay. so because torties need two x chromosomes, they're typically female. the way tortie itself works is basically, cells activate one of the genes (O or o) at random, creating patches. so you need two copies.

wikipedia says about a third of male torties have klinefelter's, which is the XXY karyotype. while this does have physical changes associated with it, the only way to confirm (humans have) klinefelter's is to test it genetically.

luckily, cats are very helpful about demonstrating it. what with them being tortie and all.

(we're also lumping in the variations of klinefelter's here. you can get XXYY, etc., and they all fit into the same broad idea.)

anyway, the extra x chromosome can come from either the mother or the father. this makes tortie toms...not quite easier, since the prereqs are the same, but y'know. if mom is Oo, dad doesn't matter. if mom is OO, dad has to be o, and if mom is oo, dad has to be O. same rules as usual.

XXY toms are going to be...not sterile, but pretty infertile. using human stats, about 50% can produce sperm, although the likelihood of them having kits is still low. humans with klinefelter's are also taller than average, so keep that in mind.

again, and this might be a correction on my part, i can't remember, but tortie toms aren't strictly going to be visibly different than other toms.

okay, so most people stop at klinefelter's, but there are two other ways to get tortie toms: mosiacism and chimerism. these are often confused/combined, but because i strive for generally being accurate, i'll go over them both.

mosaic cats carry multiple genetic lines, because of a mutation. this can either be somatic (happens in the body, is not hereditary), or germline (happens in reproductive cells of parents, is hereditary).

this is not always a gain of a line, you can lose a chromosome as well. the difference between somatic and germline and how it affects torties goes over my head, so i'm not going to speak to it, other than i'm pretty sure we're talking about somatic mosaicism. i think. again, not a biologist or geneticist, just a hobbyist with an internet connection.

right, so what happens is basically, some cells lose their extra x chromosome, giving you a cat with karyotype XXY/XY. these cats are more likely to be fertile and generally have less effects of klinefelter's. i'm not entirely sure how this affects tortie presentation, if at all, but it does happen.

i suppose you could also have some kind of mutation that gives you an extra x spontaneously, but that would be unlikely to cause torties, because it would also have to mutate into the other O allele.

again, i really want to stress that while i'm not bullshitting, i'm also not speaking definitively here.

last up is chimerism, where two embryos fuse in the womb, creating mixed genes.

i'm using a picture of a dog, here, because this is what goes through my head when i think of chimeras. you'll have to take my word for it, but while this would be a normal tortie cat, it can't really happen in dogs without some kind of mutation. and chimerism, given the extent of the patching, is pretty likely.

right! chimera torties are going to be, afaik, normal levels of fertile, although it's likely that they can pass on either black or red, not both.

(while i'm here, before we move on, there are a lot of types of chimeras. this type is called tetragametic chimerism, and it's rare in humans but more common in other animals. it's hard to know how common it is, because the differences are often very subtle, and hard to test. it's also not mutually exclusive with mosaics or klinefelter's, just to really muddy the waters.)

i don't have statistics for how common mosaics and chimeras are, and there's always, "a different type of mutation that doesn't fall into this category"

for mosaics and chimeras, the rules for inheritance seem to be the same as for klinefelter's. there's the added note that, because there can be multiple sires within one litter, a ginger queen could have kits with a ginger tom, and get a tortie son, as long as she also...ahem...with a black(/brown, etc.) tom. (or vice versa, with all brown and a ginger.)

okay! so that's basically how it happens.

as for the second part of this question, well. "is it better?" is a matter of opinion. i don't think anyone is wrong for having tortie toms. i don't care. (a) it is possible, and (b) we're all just having fun.

i, personally, do not think redtail is karyotype XX, because i like him being sandstorm's father with brindleface. idk. i like brindleface. yes, i know this raises huge genetic problems, and it's not very canon. i don't really care. i read that redtail fic where he thinks about sand&brindle as he's dying and it hasn't left me.

that said, i'm still a sucker for trans redtail. love it. idk, this is kind of hard to explain. like? it's not my headcanon, but i still appreciate it.

anyway! to the point: if you care about statistics and likelihoods and how many tortie toms you've had in the clan, yes, you're probably better off saving your chromosome anomalies for when they need to have kits, and using XX karyotype for the rest.

(under the cut: matthew rambles about trans cats and gender identity for a while)

i'm pretty sure cats don't have the western concept of gender. i don't think they have a human concept of gender, either, but at some point i need to be able to pin down something, and i think a third/fourth gender is closer to what they have.

i've been thinking about this a lot lately, because i decided i wasn't satisfied with my old approach to trans cats. i can do better than that. i decided cats don't have gendered pronouns, so why should the solution be, "trans cats don't really get to do anything about it"

no. i am dissatisfied with that.

at the same time, for specific reasons: i also don't think cats are trans in the western sense of the word.

because if for nothing else, remember that cat sexual dimorphism has a bigger effect on their life than in humans.

like, queens are going to be uncomfortable around male cats they don't hella trust and their kits. that doesn't go away if said male cat isn't a tom. y'know?

i'm in a constant state of tweaks with this, because i basically: form opinion, test opinion, refine opinion. my initial opinion was too harsh. and!

part of what's changed is i decided i wanted fernsong to be able to raise his kits in the nursery instead of ivypool. so i had to adjust how i think the nursery and queens work, slightly, to permit for that. now, i can turn back to gender and think about it some more.

i'm not going to coin any new terms, because i'm not in that kind of mood, but i think there is some idea of a female cat who is not a she-cat. i don't think the cats would call them a tom, but i'm not sure what they would say or how they would describe it.

i think they would just, on some level, get it.

actually okay you know what! i do need some lingo here. queens = cats who are raising kits in the nursery. she-cats = XX karyotype, considers self female (cis, if you will). toms = XY karyotype, considers self male (cis, again). and uh...we'll go with...

god i hate. i don't want anything i say in this ramble to be considered "words i am going to now use consistently" because i literally just need some way to describe this for my own sanity. with that in mind, let us use molly for XY karyotype, but not a tom, and...how about gib for XX karyotype, not a she-cat.

again, i don't want that to be considered permanent, i'm just fishing at words people use to describe cats so i can have something to work with.

right so, i don't think cats think gib and tom are equivalent, but i also don't think they (as a society) care about that.

like, okay, let's say redtail is XX, but not a she-cat. there's nothing to really be done (heck, if he wants to be a queen, that's still fine), cats don't have gendered pronouns or names, but at the same time, there's an intuitive understanding of what that means.

this kind of ties into the matriarchy, kind of? like, hm, queens are an important part of the matriarchy, but at the same time, she-cats inherit family lines. not that cats inherit much, but still.

i'm getting very abstract here. take, uh, like let's say a hypothetical trans mothwing. i think a lot of people have that headcanon?

and i think, like, mothwing would not be considered a tom. if cats had a concept of sexuality, leafpool would not be straight, because she likes mothwing, and mothwing is not a tom.

but! i would still think willowshine probably is the first line for nursery visits, at least when the kits are very young.

and i don't think anyone there would be unhappy with that deal.

right. i just kept rambling for a while, because i've been thinking about this and obviously it's semi-tied to the question.

tl/dr: cats don't care about gender, because they are cats meowing at each other in the woods. if a cat says they're not agab, everyone is just cool with that.

#ask #anon #essay #long #ask to tag #jic #mine #txt #genetics #redtail #warriors genetics #trans cats

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canon-notcanon-warriorcats · 5 years

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another time consuming project for me,, booboo the fool

Submitted by: ghoulcorvid

okay so there’s been plenty of things I wished had been done differently in wc throughout the years and I finally decided to plot out a rewrite thing because I apparently hate myself and this is fanfic #16478592 that got stuck in my head:

first read/reread all the books or at least a synopsis because I stopped reading before firestar died lol

mainly this rewrite is for tpb but I might continue on who knows (not me that’s for sure)

REWORK THE WARRIOR CODE,, like in universe because these cats will point out a dumb rule one book and then be accepting of it the next book ???

expand on all the various ceremonies and StarClan and The Dark Forest because they were cool concepts and now they’re kinda lame imo

add more explicitly lgbtqia+ AND disabled characters and make them make sense,, and stop fridging so many she-cats

okay so the basis of this au is that rusty comes to tc BEFORE he is 6 moons old and he’s guided by redtail because why wait until spottedleaf dies when it’s feasible he could have reached out from StarClan

idk who takes care of him while he has to stay in the nursery (maybe all of them ???) but he’s like 3 moons old lol he baby

sandstorm is a chimera from two embryos one who’s father is redtail and the other who’s father is runningwind (I’m fond of red/running/brindle (I just spent an hour quadruple checking that they weren’t any closer than 2nd cousins so if they are I must have missed it omg) for some reason and since this is a thing that can happen in cat populations I was like hmm sandstorm has 3 parents now)

surprise !!! redtail is a chimera too !!! except he only has 2 parents,, he just absorbed one of his siblings :3

chimerism can also cause male torties,, so guess what lol,, sol is a chimera tortie who’s infertile

longtail mentors firepaw !!! (because I think it would be interesting and funny,, but also bluestar does take over his mentoring after tigerclaw is banished due to tigerclaw and longtail being fairly close beforehand)

I am fucking with the timeline a Lot so if none of this makes sense time-wise rn I’ll fix it later lol

okay so I lied about this only being about tpb,, I have to include some things about my first super edition that I loved reading: firestar’s quest,, yeah it’s not great but it does have a special place in my heart

I’m sorry but firestar does Not make greystripe deputy after whitestorm passes in the tigerclan/lionclan battle

I’m not sure who exactly becomes deputy tho,, maybe longtail ??? I like longtail he’s a good boy,, if not him maybe someone else that most of the clan won’t openly object to like they did with fireheart

so firestar starts having his visions or seeing ghosts or what have you and like I probably won’t change him yelling at starclan because that was hilarious

(OKAY SO I JUST GALAXY-BRAINED MYSELF WITH SMUDGE JOINING THE CLANS FOR SOME REASON (not tc tho) OR MAYBE HE SIRES SOME KITS TO COMBAT THE IN*EST PROBLEM IN TC EARLY)

okay so greystripe isn’t deputy and this enables him to go with fire and sand because I think it would be interesting

I’m kinda thinking greyfiresand endgame (smoky glass 👀) but like as an open relationship because I kinda picture grey as this dumbass boy who falls in love with so many different cats (also idk if grey and sand are closely related so maybe they aren’t together if they are just greyfire and sandfire)

so if I want to keep cherrysharp a thing,, he Will Not be mentoring her whatsoever,, but I could just bring in another mentioned kittypet to be sharpclaw’s apprentice

actually I probably will do that just because I can lol

lowkey want hutch/shortwhisker to stay in the clan so that might happen idk yet

a Big Big change I’m making to firestar’s quest is that skywatcher is younger and his mother is still alive,, his mom take his role in the book (telling everyone about skyclan and dying of old age)

skywatcher is actually the age of a seasoned warrior (think whitestorm or lionheart in tpb),, he might get a different suffix as I might give the -watcher suffix to his momma

skywatcher actually saves rainfur in the battle with the rats (not for any particular reason I just thought it would be interesting,, some other character might die tho) although he still is heavily injured and so still causes the characters to fight harder

this is all I have so far,, thanks for letting me submit this and sorry it’s so long lol

~~~

oh i like your firestar’s quest rewrite ideas a lot

also sandstorm and graystripe would be cousins unless you change his mom since willowpelt and redtail are siblings!

runningwind, redtail, and brindleface are not related at all so don’t worry about that!

i’d go with either longboy as deputy OR goldenflower or frostfur they’d also be neat choices and they could happily retire and you can make a younger cat be the new deputy *cough* squirrelflight, sandstorm, or sorreltail *cough*

#warrior cats #warrior cats rewrite #submission

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skelosfangs · 6 years

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Warrior cat Generator (2.0 ver.)

So if you’re one of my earliest followers you may remember i did something like this a few years back, well i decided to bring it back because i was bored, and I had lots of fun with this sooo…

here are my results btw:

My name is kindleice and im a loner who was a former deputy that was exiled for reasons and from a clan i won’t speak about, im a long furred gray tabby with amber eyes, battle scars and a nicked ear.

Bold your results:

Afiliation: What month were you born in?

january-february: Thunderclan.

march-april: Shadowclan.

may-june: Windclan.

july-august: Riverclan.

september-october: Skyclan.

november-december: Other_________

Rank: How many warriors books have you read (mangas, guides, super editions, etc…)?

70+: Starclan warrior,

60+: Leader.

50+: Deputy.

40+: Medicine cat.

30+: Elder.

20+: Warrior/Queen.

10+: Apprentice.

1+: Kit.

Pelt color(base): What’s your favorite kind of weather?

Rainy: black Cloudy: grey Sunny: ginger/red Snowy: white Windy: brown Partially coudy: golden/cream.

Markings: What’s your favorite arc? (can be more than one).

Dawn of the Clans: Colorpoint.

Prophecies Begin: Tabby.

New Prophecy: Spotted tabby.

Power of Three: White patches.(if already white, then patches of any other color)

Omen of the Stars: Tortieshell. (base color + red/black accordingly)

A Vision of Shadows: Other____________

Eye color: Wats your favorite kind of herb?

Catmint: Violet.

Watermint: Green.

Horsetail: Bright green.

Yarrow: Yellow.

Marigold: Amber.

Poppy: Dark amber.

Juniper: Blue.

Borage: Odd eyes (each a different color)

Extras: Have you ever?….

Dawn warriors fan art: long fur.

Written warriors fan fiction: ear tufts.

Made a warriors AMV/PMV: battle scar(s).

Made a warriors OC: Thorn/ear nick(s)

Made a fan clan: short/missing tail.

Roleplayed warriors: missing eye.

Named a pet after a warrior cat: other________

Name: First letter of your name is the prefix and first letter of your last name is the suffix (if you’re a leader, kit or apprentice change your suffix accordingly, you know the drill).

A: apple, ant, amber, ash, antler, adder, aspen, acorn, arch, alder.

B: blue, berry, bracken, bramble, bee, buzzard, black, bright, bounce, bark, boulder, blossom, brindle, badger, beeatle, bird, brich, bat, brown, blizzard, breeze, beech, briar, bristle.

C: cinder, cream, clear, coal, cherry, cloud, cold, copper, cedar, curl, clover, crouch, crow, claw, cricket, clever, chive, claw, cone cypress.

D: dove, dawn, daisy, dark, deer, dusk, dew, drift, dust, dapple, duck, dry, dim, dapple, drizzle.

E: echo, ember, ebony, eel, eagle, egg, ear, eye, eyes.

F: feather, flower, fawn, forest, fall, fly, finch, fire, flame, fern, flint, fox, frost, fallow, freckle, freeze, flowing, ferret, frog, fuzzy, fluffy, fennel, fog, foam, foggy, flower, fin, fish, foot, fur, face, fallen, flight.

G: golden, gorse, goose, gray, green, ginger, grass, grim.

H: holly, hollow, honey, hop, half, hail, heavy, heron, hawk, hay, hare, hazel, heather, heart, hoot, hatch, haven, hickory.

I: ice, ivy, insect, inch.

J: jay, jagged, jump, jaw, juniper.

K: kestrel, kink, kick, kindle.

L: long, lithe, little, lake, leopard, lion, loud, lightning, lily, larch, lark, lichen, leaf, lizard, low, lily, log, leg, leap, light.

M: moth, mallow, minnow, moon, morning, molted, marsh, maple, mist, mole, moss, mud, mouse, milk, mint, mumble, munch, maggot, meadow, marigold, mottle, mask.

N: nettle, night, noisy, newt, needle, nectar, nut, nose.

O: owl, one, oak, otter, olive, ocean, oat.

P: pebble, pickle, pinch, plum, plump, pine, patch, poppy, pear, pounce, pearl, petal, peach, pigeon, pepper, puddle, pool, patch, pelt, pad, pale.

Q: quiet, quivering, quick, quiver, quail.

R: rose, rat, river, robin, red, river, rowan, ragged, running, russet, rock, rolling, rush, reed.

S: snake, silver, slim, slow, sleek, sand, seed, snow, sorrel, squirrel, spotted, spike, speckle, soot, storm, sun, stone, small, spider, song, sweet, swift, shrew, sparrow, splash, shell, sedge, stumpy, starling, stream, sunny, stripe.

T: trout, thunder, thistle, twist, thrush, turtle, tall, tawny, twig, tiny, talon, tiger, toad, torn, thorn, tangle, tail, tuft, tooth, toe.

U: (free to choose)

V: viper, vole, vixen, vine, violet.

W: white, willow, water, wild, wren, wood, worm, wolf, web, whisker, weasel, wet, wasp, woolly, whorl, wave.

Y: yellow, yell, yowl, yawn, yew.

Z: (free to choose)

Reblog/put you results in the tags (you can even add a backstory if you want)!!

#warrior cats

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brakebuffet33 · 3 years

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stanleybaxley8-blog · 6 years

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