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canary3d-obsessed · 10 months

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Restless Rewatch: The Untamed, Episode 38 part one

(Masterpost) (Pinboard) (whole thing on AO3)

Warning! Spoilers for All 50 Episodes!

OK But Why?

This tale-within-a-tale is excruciating, yeah? So let's start off by considering why it even exists. Yi City feels like, if not a fully separate story, a pretty complete arc that can play as its own little movie. And it's incredibly sad, in every direction. While it may have begun life, in its originally-written form, as a different story exploring some of the same themes, MXTX placed it in the novel deliberately, and the producers of CQL included it deliberately. Why? Other than the, you know, catharsis of a well-wrought tragedy?

I think the answer is that it tells a set of parallel stories, alternate versions of the stories our main characters inhabit, with different outcomes driven by the character's choices. There's an obvious parallel between Lan Wangji's grief and Song Lan's, and another clear one between Wei Wuxian's core donation and Xiao Xingchen's eyeball donation.

And there's an important comparison to be made between Xue Yang and Wei Wuxian, two demonic cultivators. They share some formative experiences, but have followed radically different paths, shaped, at a key moment, by another person's choice.

Overall, the Yi City story illustrates how choices made in a moment affect not just an individual life, but ripple outward into other lives. So be prepared for me to point out parallels even more than usual, as we go through these episodes.

Empathy

We start off learning about Empathy and how it’s sooper dangerous, which means of course Wei Wuxian is totally down for it and probably invented it. He gathers the kids around and assigns Jin Ling to be the person in charge of supervising and deciding when to pull him out of the matrix link.

Jin Ling is surprised and reluctant so teacher’s pet Sizhui jumps forward and volunteers.

Wei Wuxian asks Jin Ling for his Jiang clarity bell, which is on a tassel that used to be Jiang Yanli’s.

(more behind the cut!)

Once the bell/tassel is out of Jin Ling’s hand, however, he changes his mind and snatches it, and the responsibility, back.

It seems like Sizhui might recognize this tassel?

It’s like the one Jiang Yanli gave Wei Wuxian when they met up before her wedding, which means Wei Wuxian would have had it with him during their year in the burial mounds.

Jingyi disapproves of Jin Ling’s mind-changing, which is a little unfair since JL didn’t actually say “no” prior to Sizhui putting in his oar. (Sizhui is entirely loveable, but he is also a pushy brown-noser just like Lan Wangji was at his age. He just does it so sweetly that nobody minds.)

Sizhui, also like his Lan dad, has made it his life’s mission to manage a loudmouth hothead’s temper for him.

Heading into empathy with A-Qing, we get flashes of bits of the story that we're about to see in depth. Then we jump to "ten years ago" which, given the way this series does math, probably means seven years ago.

Side note: A-Qing has managed to keep her hair looking pretty cute despite being 90% dead.

Splish Splash

This particular section of the Wuxia River of Sadness is reserved for people who are contemplating the total mess they have made of their lives (gifset here), but A-Qing didn't get that memo, so she's having a nice time splashing joyfully without a care in the world.

A-Qing isn't about drama or being depressed, even when things are pretty difficult. She has found a big rock to sit on and is having a nice day hanging out on it.

Then she goes skipping along singing "la la la la" (which is the same sound in Chinese as we make in English when we're singing and don't know the words, incidentally). Ok, show, we get it, she's happy and carefree. I sure hope she doesn't get involved in any weird relationships.

Grifting

She sees a couple of women walking on the path and she starts pretending to be blind. In the book, this pretense was facilitated by her having completely white eyes, but in the show she has normal brown eyes, until she actually is blinded by Xue Yang. So her entire pretense of being blind is to unfocus her eyes a bit and wave her hands around...

...with frequent intervals where she thinks no-one is watching her, and she acts 100% like she can see. Somehow she is almost never busted for this.

The ladies give her a steamed bun and whisper loudly to each other about how pitiful she is.

Then she heads into town for a little grifting, picking a wealthy douchebag as a mark. She bumps into him and steals his money bag, which he doesn't notice because he's too busy creeping on her.

She's annoyed and disappointed that he doesn't have a lot of money.

Hey Pretty, Don’t You Want To Take a Ride With Me

Next she bumps into (and robs) Xiao Xingchen, who is actually blind, so he doesn’t notice her noticing how extremely pretty he is.

He does notice that she has robbed him, however.

Did you know if you have your eyes removed or even just damaged so you can't see any more, your eye sockets and/or tear ducts will bleed pretty much forever? Yeah, me neither.

Xiao Xingchen immediately takes charge of A-Qing, telling her to walk more slowly and then telling her - kindly - to return his money purse. Before she can answer him, the rich douchebag comes back to yell at her and try to hit her. Xiao Xingchen stops him and smooths over the situation, and then lectures Ah Qing about stealing and how it's bad. But he tells her to keep his money, so - mixed messages, bro.

She calls him gege and says that since he's blind and she's blind, she's going to follow him forever. He’s like, okey dokey, and they walk off together. Is she really the first person (since Song Lan) who’s had this idea about him? He is *very* pretty, after all.

It's unclear to me if she's calling him gege in the sense of “orphan girl who wants a family,” or in the sense of “mostly-grown-up woman who would like to Hit That.” Xiao Xingchen appears to take it as the former; he is too gay virtuous for the other option.

Two seconds after they decide to stay together, they encounter Xue Yang lying injured by the side of the road. A-Qing pretends she didn’t see him, and almost successfully wangles a piggyback ride out of Xiao Xingchen.

But then he hears Xue Yang and immediately decides to rescue him, like the do-gooder Xue Yang despises him for being.

Xue Yang gets the romance-tropey piggyback ride that A-Qing was hoping for. Girl, the time to stop trying to seduce your gay male friend is 5 minutes before you started, ok?

So...why was Xue Yang lying by the side of the road with a stab wound? Who gave it to him? If Jin Guangyao was sick of him, he would have stabbed him 100% fatally, and he wouldn't have let him hang on to Tiger Seal 2.0. And presumably Xue Yang wouldn’t think of him as a friend any more. It’s a mystery.

The new throuple decide to go to the creepiest abandoned walled city that has ever existed, and head past all the regular houses to set up camp in the morgue, for some reason. Not even inside one of the buildings; just out in the courtyard with a bunch of possibly-occupied coffins. Xiao Xingchen is so fucking weird.

Each Unhappy Family is Unhappy in its Own Way

Xiao Xingchen gets to work patching Xue Yang up, and Xue Yang wakes up and recognizes him. A-Qing explains that they are blind and tells him not to be rude about it.

Xue Yang takes a second to process the situation, and then decided he’s going to hide his identity and make nice with Xiao Xingchen. Proving that found family can also have hideous toxic dynamics.

Xue Yang is very careful to keep XXC from touching his hand, since that would give away his identity. He has a...prosthetic finger? He wears a black glove and keeps his pinky finger straight so we know it's a replacement, or injured, or something.

I think this is a concession to Wang Haoxuan having ten functional fingers and the show having a limited CGI budget. In a real sword-based society, missing a finger is probably not particularly uncommon, and he would probably just rock the nine-fingered look without having a special glove.

At this point, the complex interactions of the trio get rolling. Xiao Xingchen is honestly kind, Xue Yang is fake-kind, A-Qing is fake-unaware with Xue Yang and is unable to make Xiao Xingchen understand the problem, and Xiao Xingchen is genuinely unaware of everything.

We spend a fairly large amount of time with Xue Yang and Xiao Xingchen playing happy families. As part of his false persona, Xue Yang adopts a coy and whiny tone when talking to his pet white-clad cultivator, remarkably like another demonic cultivator we know.

I’m pretty sure Wei Wuxian has never managed to cop a feel while his sweetie climbs up a ladder, however.

Then again, neither Lan Wangji nor Wei Wuxian has ever needed a ladder to get onto a roof, so maybe it’s just a lack of opportunity.

This relationship, on the surface, is cute and sweet, which just makes the reality of it more disturbing. It’s super uncomfortable to watch, but there’s more than manipulation happening in these interactions. As Xue Yang flits around doing domestic tasks like patching the roof of the crappy outdoor shelter that they absolutely do not need to be using, he tells Xiao Xingchen various true things about his early life, and we begin to see what shaped him.

Xue Yang (like OP) is obsessed with candy. In Xue Yang’s case, he was a hungry street kid who loved candy but couldn’t usually have it because of poverty. We learn that he has skills in patching up inadequate housing because he did it growing up.

And we learn that he was beaten a lot.

So he and Wei Wuxian have these things in common - except now Wei Wuxian gets his sugar from alcohol, not from candy. And Wei Wuxian’s handyman skills are used to make a home for his former enemies in the burial grounds, while Xue Yang’s are used - also in a cemetery, of sorts - to manipulate and trap his enemy.

I Want Candy

In classic predator form, Xue Yang uses candy to lure A-Qing into coming within stabbing range, because he thinks she’s faking her blindness and wants to test her.

I find him super attractive right here in spite of his evilness. I’m pretty sure it’s because he’s offering candy. (OP goes and gets a jolly rancher out of her purse).

After calling her over, he draws his sword with a super-loud "sshshk" noise that she inexplicably doesn't notice, and she bravely walks up to, and nearly on to, the point of the sword.

This shocks him and convinces him that she's really blind. He sits her down with apparently sincere gentleness, and gives her candy, while quizzing her about her hot gege.

A-Qing tries to warn Xiao Xingchen about Xue Yang being a bad guy, pointing out that he's a cultivator and won't tell them his name. (She can’t say “also he tried to stab me” because she’d have to come clean about being able to see.) Xiao Xingchen, because he is a condescending prick--albeit a very sweet one--pats her on the fucking head and laughs off her extremely useful warning.

Xiao Xingchen came out into the wider world with a set of ideals that he lives by, apparently without examining them. He’s humble, kind, frugal, and wants to eradicate evil. He also believes that the majority of people are good like him, and that detecting evil is simple--as simple as following his sword toward it. He doesn’t allow A-Qing, who is experienced in the wider world, to teach him anything, preferring to keep his ideals untarnished.

Contrast this with Lan Wangji, who also starts his journey into the wider world with a set of ideals (codified as rules), but does not make the mistake of assuming that other people shares his beliefs. Once he’s away from the Cloud Recesses, he follows Wei Wuxian’s lead when dealing with new people, rather than insisting on doing things the way he did back home. In general, he is open to having his beliefs challenged, even when it makes him upset or uncomfortable. As a result, he grows into a righteous man, not a naïve one, and he’s fully capable of identifying enemies even when they appear to be friends.

Bonus:

In this brief long-distance shot we learn that A-Qing sleeps in a coffin, which is some next level goth girl shit.

Soundtrack: 1. Hey Pretty by Poe 2. I Want Candy by Bow Wow Wow 3. Cheap Thrills by Sia

#the untamed #the untamed gifs #restless rewatch the untamed #yi city #yi city trio #canary3d-original #ep 38

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mxtxfanatic · 10 months

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I saw such a bad take on Jiang Cheng's character and I can't stop thinking about how terrible it is. "Jiang Cheng did nothing wrong....couldn't have handled things better because of his situation..."...something something. Why is it so hard for people to accept what's written in canon. MXTX wanted JC to be seen as an antagonist, she wanted him to be a terrible person it's so obvious from all the parallels between him and WWX's characters... A huge excuse when they try to paint him as a "sad, misunderstood uwu boy" is that he went through a lot and thought it was all wwx's fault. But so did Jiang Yanli, and she didn't have any of the reactions that Jiang Cheng did. SHE was the one who lost her husband, SHE also lost her parents the same way he did? I also reread some scenes recently...and his homophobia is so apparent especially in the scene where lwj and wwx visit his parents' shrine. ALSO, his excuse for thinking their dating is that he saw them hug under that tree??? AND HE FOLLOWED THEM TO SEE WHAT THEY'D DO AFTERWARDS😭😭😭

I'm just confused about what excuse they have that makes it so easy to overlook all the shitty things about him💀 (oh, they also seem to hate...wangxian? Like actively believe those two are annoying and that they're bad people. Which is kind of sad, since they're the main pairing of a...ROMANCE NOVEL. So I feel pretty bad for them for having to read a whole book about two characters they don't like) Just wanted to know your thoughts. JC is irredeemable in my eyes. He's not a bad guy but he is a very bad person. But maybe other people see something I don't😂

Somehow I missed this ask, but I found it right on time (after seeing some stan bullshit 🙄) . My thoughts on Jiang Cheng is that the book is very clear that he is a terrible leader, a terrible uncle, and a terrible brother (both martial and bio) who chose the path of his toxic, violent mother to pursue over his kind father. Anyone saying otherwise is not worth engaging.

People don’t see something you don’t about his character, anon; people are choosing to unsee the things in canon because they’ve imprinted on a character that only exists in fan art, fanfic, and “incorrect quotes” memes. The disconnect isn’t a misunderstanding of the story but people uninvested in the original story wanting to impose their own uninspired fandom tropes onto an already cohesive story, and I simply do not have the energy to deal with that level of denial anymore with this fandom.

#mdzs asks #anon #yeah sorry about the late response #i legit was not seeing this ask #but also on jc being redeemable:#he’s irredeemable *to me*#but I don’t think he’s necessarily made so in the text #if by ‘redeemble’ you mean he cane change at least some of his ways #like i believe he can probably canonically be better to jin ling #but he will never be a person who doesn’t believe in murdering and torturing people weaker than him to vent his anger #as long as he can get away with it #he and wwx will never be on good terms again #he will continue to have no other amicable relationships in his life outside of his nephew

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jiangwanyinscatmom · 2 years

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Once more, why Jiang Cheng's homophobia is not funny, cute, or anything to do with a sibling dynamic:

Hi! So first of all I want to clarify that I’m not in any way saying jc isn’t a homophobe, because I mean, it’s pretty obvious. However back when I read the mxtx interview I read her answer as ‘wwx acted all of a sudden very different with lwj, to the point where it was jarring for jc who had not seen him act that way before.’ I do not think jc understood at all wwx’s affections towards lwj, and this did not think it was disgusting because he saw it as flirting. (½)

I find it weird that people use it as a 'proof’ that jc is homophobic when it’s not straightforwardly telling us it’s homophobia, and also since you know, the novel is right there and tells us far more clearly that jc is, in fact, a homophobe. (2/2)

So, here, I agree the interview isn’t a stated full explanation in itself and not to be used as evidence alone.

I think that at the time it was not fully homophobia on his part when he had first noticed Wei Wuxian’s attention for Lan Wangji in Cloud Recesses. Jiang Cheng had never understood Wei Wuxian’s penchant for wanting to be around Lan Wangji and I think that his surprise of Wei Wuxian flirting with a man (He himself talks about how he never thought it odd with Wei Wuxian flirting with women all the time) Lan Wangji was always the strange outlier for flirting. It steadily devolves into more overt homophobia as they get older.

Cloud Recesses when they’re 15,

Wei WuXian replied, “Yeah, I also thought that he should be praised for having the courage to come see me. He was probably told by his uncle to come check if I was kneeling properly.”

Jiang Cheng instinctively felt a foreboding sensation, “Were you kneeling properly?”

Wei WuXian, “I was kneeling properly. After he was some distance away, I found a stick and started to dig in the dirt. The pile beside your foot. There’s an ant hole there that I went through tons of trouble to find. When he turned his head, he saw that my shoulders were shaking, and he definitely thought that I was crying. He even came back to ask me. You really should have seen his expression as he saw the ant hole.”

“…” Jiang Cheng spoke, “You should get lost and go back to Yunmeng as soon as possible! I don’t think that he wants to see you ever again.”

The part that sticks out here is the fact that Jiang Cheng feels any sense of foreboding at all for a silly situation that Lan Wangji had walked away from seeing Wei Wuxian was actually okay. It’s the first seed of him continuing the line of thought that “He hates you”. He is already feeling strange about Wei Wuxian’s flirting and chooses to sort of project this hate into Lan Wangji for Wei Wuxian.

Lotus Pier summer after Cloud Recesses lessons:

I just thought of someone.”

Jiang Cheng, “Who?”

Wei WuXian, “Lan Zhan.”

Jiang Cheng, “Why would you think of him for no reason? Reminiscing what it felt like to copy sect rules?”

Wei WuXian spat out a seed, “It’s fun to think of him. You don’t even know—he’s just too amusing. I told him, ‘Your sect’s food is disgusting. I’d rather eat stir-fried watermelon peel than eat your food. If you have time, come have fun with us at Lotus Pier…'”

Before he even finished, Jiang Cheng slapped his watermelon off, “Are you mad? Inviting him to Lotus Pier—are you trying to torture yourself?”

Wei WuXian, “Why are you so upset? My watermelon almost flew away! I was just being polite. Of course he wouldn’t come. Have you ever heard of him go anywhere by himself to have fun?”

Jiang Cheng had on a stern expression, “Let’s make this clear. I don’t want him to come, anyhow. Don’t invite him.”

Wei WuXian, “I never knew you hated him so much?”

Jiang YanLi sat down between the two, “Who are you talking about? A friend you made in Gusu?”

Wei WuXian responded happily, “Yeah!”

Jiang Cheng, “What a shameless ‘friend’ you are. Go ask Lan WangJi and see if he wants you as one.”

Wei WuXian, “Fuck off. If he doesn’t want me, I’ll bother him to the point that he does.” He turned to Jiang YanLi, “Shijie, do you know Lan WangJi?”

Jiang YanLi, “I do. He’s that Lan-er-gongzi whom everyone describes as handsome and talented, isn’t he? Is he really that handsome?”

Wei WuXian, “He is!”

Jiang YanLi, “Compared to you?”

Wei WuXian thought about it for a moment, “Maybe just a bit more handsome than me.”

He formed a tiny bit of space between two fingers. Taking the plate away, Jiang YanLi smiled, “He must be truly very handsome, then. It’s a good thing you made a new friend. In the future, you two can visit each other in your free time.”

Hearing this, Jiang Cheng spat out his watermelon. Wei WuXian waved his hands, “Forget it, forget it. All that’s at his place is bad food and a whole lot of rules. I’m not going again.”

Jiang YanLi, “Then you can bring him here. This is a good opportunity. Why not invite your friend to come stay at Lotus Pier for sometime?”

Jiang Cheng, “Don’t listen to his nonsense, Jie. He’s super annoying in Gusu. Lan WangJi would never want to come home with him.”

Wei WuXian, “What do you mean!? He would.”

Jiang Cheng, “Wake up. Lan WangJi told you to get lost, didn’t you hear? You still remember that?”

Wei WuXian, “What do you know!? Even though he told me to get lost on the surface, I know for sure that he secretly wants to come play with me in Yunmeng—in fact, he would love to.”

Here Wei Wuxian is still in the belief that Lan Wangji does like him. Jiang Cheng of course isn’t amused by Jiang Yanli’s indulgence in Wei Wuxian’s daydreams. Wei Wuxian continues to, well, essentially pine innocently about Lan Wangji, his fellow disciples even encourage it leading to… Jiang Cheng sulking even further over the fact that Wei Wuxian is in fact pining over another boy. He puts two and two together as Wei Wuxian is flirting with the girls on shore later on and he talks of the things he will do with Lan Wangji as he visits. He talked of training with Lan Wangji in the same way he invited the girls to watch him train.

Phoenix Mountain Hunt:

Lan WangJi suddenly raised his hand, stopping a flower tossed over from behind him.

He looked back. Over at the side of the YunmengJiang Sect’s riding formation, which hadn’t departed yet, Jiang Cheng clicked his tongue impatiently, seated at the front. However, the person beside him sat on a horse with black, gleaming hair. His elbow was at the head of the horse as he looked to the side as though nothing happened, talking and laughing with two slender-bodied maidens.

Lan XiChen saw that Lan WangJi had drawn the reins and ceased to move forward, “WangJi, what happened?”

Lan WangJi, “Wei Ying.”

Wei WuXian finally turned around, face full of surprise, “What? HanGuang-Jun, did you call me? What’s up?”

Holding the flower, Lan WangJi seemed to be quite cold. His tone seemed cold as well, “Was it you?”

Wei WuXian immediately denied it, “No, it wasn’t.”

The maidens beside him spoke at once, “Don’t believe him. It was him!”

Wei WuXian, “How could you treat a good person like this? I’m getting angry!”

Giggling, the maidens pulled their reins and went to the formations of their own sects. Lan WangJi lowered the hand that he held the flower with and shook his head. Jiang Cheng spoke, “ZeWu-Jun, HanGuang-Jun, apologies. Don’t pay attention to him.”

Lan XiChen smiled, “That is fine. I will thank Young Master Wei’s kindness behind the flower in place of WangJi.”

When they slowly rode into the distance, carrying with them the clouds of petals and fragrance, Jiang Cheng glanced at the colourful sea of handkerchiefs waving on the watching towers before turning to Wei WuXian, “Why are you throwing out flowers along with the girls?”

Wei WuXian, “I think he looks nice. Can’t I throw a few as well?”

Jiang Cheng pointed his nose into the air, “How old are you? Who do you think you are, still playing tricks like that?”

Interestingly enough, this flower scene is similar to what had once occurred during the summer of Lotus Pier. This is after it had been established that Wei Wuxian thinks Lan Wangji now dislikes him morally. Yet he still reaches out to tease and flirt with him, leading Jiang Cheng to continue asking why well into their early 20’s is Wei Wuxian still doing this. It was excusable when they were younger but now this is inexcusable and troublesome for someone who is supposed to be his righthand acting on whims still and flirting with a man of reputation. Jiang Cheng actively had encouraged the rift between Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji after the return from the Burial Mounds. He agreed very readily that Lan Wangji wanted to imprison Wei Wuxian instead of extending any help in regards to Wei Wuxian’s volatile disposition that went on for years after this altercation, convincing himself and Wei Wuxian of Lan Wangji’s supposed hate.

Wei WuXian was in such a state of distress that he couldn’t remember whether or not he called someone’s name at all. He only managed to pull himself together after Jiang Cheng commanded the dog to back away. After a moment of hesitation, he abruptly turned his head away. On the other side, Jiang Cheng left his seat. There was a whip attached beside his waist. With one hand on it, he bent down to look at Wei WuXian’s face. After a pause, he straightened up and asked, “Speaking of it, since when have you been so close to Lan WangJi?”

Wei WuXian immediately understood whose name he had unconsciously called out.

Jiang Cheng smiled menacingly, “It really is quite curious how far he went to protect you, back on Dafan Mountain.”

A moment later, he corrected himself, “No. You weren’t necessarily the one whom Lan WangJi was protecting. After all, the GusuLan Sect couldn’t have forgotten what you did with that loyal dog of yours. How could someone so celebrated for his righteousness tolerate the likes of you? Maybe he’s familiar with this body that you stole instead.”

His words were cruel and sinister. Every sentence seemed well-meaning on the surface, but was actually derogatory. Wei WuXian couldn’t bear hearing it any longer, “Watch your language.”

Thirteen years later his taunts have become more refined as he is well off into hating Lan Wangji himself now that Wei Wuxian had been dead. He taunts that Lan Wangji is more promiscuous than presented as well as using Wei Wuxian’s old goodwill for Lan Wangji for him to go on the defense. Jiang Cheng however thinks using the fact these men are gay is only a tool, he does not believe they are as his disgust of Mo Xuanyu being gay does disgust him. His suspicions have turned into bigotry instead finally in the years that Wei Wuxian was gone.

When Jiang Cheng accused him, Wei WuXian couldn’t defend himself at all, but he just couldn’t bear it when those words were being directed at Lan WangJi.

Wei WuXian reprimanded, “Jiang Cheng, just listen to yourself. What are you saying? Is it appropriate? Don’t forget who you are. After all, you’re the leader of a sect. Insulting a renowned cultivator in front of Uncle Jiang and Madam Yu’s spirits—where is your discipline?”

His original intention was to remind Jiang Cheng to at least hold some respect for Lan WangJi. However, Jiang Cheng was always sensitive. From those words, he managed to make out the notion that he wasn’t fit to be a sect leader. Immediately, darkness crawled up his face, bearing an eerie similarity to how Madam Yu looked when she was angry. His voice was harsh, “Who is the one insulting my parents in front of their spirits?! Could you two please understand whose sect you’re in? I don’t care if you act so shamelessly outside, but don’t you dare fool around inside our ancestral hall, before my parents’ spirits! After all, they were the ones who brought you up—even I feel ashamed for you!”

Wei WuXian never expected such a huge blow to crash down on him. He was both shocked and furious, blurting, “Shut up!”

Jiang Cheng pointed outside, “Mess around outside however you want, whether under a tree or on a boat, hugging or otherwise! Get out of my sect, get away from anywhere my eyes can see!”

Hearing him mention ‘under a tree’, Wei WuXian felt his heart skip a beat—could Jiang Cheng have seen the moment where he crashed into Lan WangJi’s arms?

His guess was not wrong. Jiang Cheng did indeed go out to find Wei WuXian and Lan WangJi. He chased after them in the direction that the street vendors pointed at. A voice in his heart seemed to tell him which places Wei WuXian would definitely go. He caught up to them in just a while. Yet, he just so happened to see Wei WuXian and Lan WangJi enveloped in a tight embrace under a tree, unwilling to let go of each other even after so long.

Goosebumps immediately ran down Jiang Cheng’s body.

Although he’d made guesses at the relationship between Mo XuanYu and Lan WangJi before, they were only attacks trying to offend Wei WuXian, not that he really suspected anything. He’d never thought that Wei WuXian would have ambiguous ties with a man, because after all, when they grew up together, Wei WuXian had never expressed any such interest. He’d always loved good-looking girls with a passion. On the other hand, it was even more impossible for Lan WangJi. He was famous for his asceticism, seemingly interested in neither men nor women.

But hugging like that seemed intense no matter what. At least, they didn’t seem like normal friends or brothers. He immediately recalled that Wei WuXian had always stuck to Lan WangJi ever since he came back. Lan WangJi’s attitude towards him was also different from what it was before he was reborn. At once, he was almost certain that the two really were in that kind of relationship. He couldn’t turn around and leave, yet he didn’t want to say a single word to the two, so he continued to hide himself as he followed them. Every single look and movement that passed between them seemed different in his eyes. For a while, the shock, absurdity, and slight disgust that he felt combined to overpower his hatred. It was only after Wei WuXian brought Lan WangJi into the ancestral hall that the long-suppressed hatred was awakened again, devouring his courtesy and rationality.

Wei WuXian was holding something back, “Jiang WanYin, you… apologize right now.”

Jiang Cheng mocked, “Apologize? For what? For exposing your thing for each other?”

Wei WuXian raged, “HanGuang-Jun is only my friend—what do you think we are?! I warn you. Apologize right now—don’t make me beat you!”

Hearing this, Lan WangJi’s expression froze for an instant. Jiang Cheng laughed, “Well, then I’ve never seen “friends” like that before? You warn me? Warn me against what? If you two had the slightest trace of integrity left, you wouldn’t have come here and…”

Seeing the change in Lan WangJi’s expression, Wei WuXian thought he must have felt insulted by Jiang Cheng’s words. He was so angry that his entire body was shaking. He didn’t dare think about what Lan WangJi would think after being shamed like this.

Obviously in the penultimate scene Jiang Cheng himself is being “the unreliable narrator” that fans love to accuse Wei Wuxian of. He says he never expected this of the two, but all the years of his behavior shows that he had always gone out of his way to keep the two away from each other and had always been mildly homophobic when the two did express interest in the other however innocent it had been in their youth.

All of this is to say, when it comes to how MXTX worded that interview answer, I think it was meant as a careful nudge for those who had still tried to insist that Jiang Cheng didn’t mean to be homophobic, actually wasn’t homophobic and was just angry at any other actions of Wei Wuxian and lashing out about that etc, it was her telling people to simply pay attention to the underlying shadowing of Jiang Cheng and how he exasperated his own pre-existing biases that morphed into an uglier hate.

#mdzs #mo dao zu shi #jiang cheng's canon homophobia #it is nothing to do with him seeing WWx as a sibling #and everything to do with him believing two men can't be romantically involved

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lryghe · 9 months

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MXTX thoughts; 3rd person limited

I’ve had some decently relevant thoughts regarding MXTX and her use of 3rd person limited, and I wanted to touch on them quickly because it’s rather interesting to think about. I think I’ll be doing a few separate posts surrounding an analysis of MXTX and her use of style and the common conventions she employs, mostly because I’m a loser who likes analysis and this is my archive, I can do what I want. Preface, yes, this post will contain spoilers for all 3 of MXTX’s works, but probably only minor ones.

I’ve mentioned this before in my ‘SVSSS thoughts; perspective’ post minorly, but for those who don’t know what exactly third person limited is, I’ll give a brief explanation. Third person perspective is what majority of works are written in. It uses no personal pronouns (e.g., no I or you, ‘she’ turned her head) and focuses on the outwards world, giving insight into not only the main subjects thoughts, but also the characters around them. Third person can also give insight into things happening in different places at different times much easier than first or second person, simply because it's so omniscient (3rd person is often categorised into 3rd person omniscient and limited). Third person limited however is focused on this same type of pronoun ([character name] turned their head) but only unlocks the thoughts and emotions of one character.

That’s what MXTX is doing with literally every single one of her works, most notably in SVSSS. Shen Qingqiu is a particularly dense narrator, and only gains insight into other people's inner worlds periodically, while Wei Wuxian also suffers the same fate in MDZS, both able to acknowledge other people's perspectives but only through their own eyes, which tilts the perspective of characters. TGCF also does this, but it’s far more subtle than MXTX’s previous works because of a few different things, such as Xie Lian’s overall character being intuitive (and empathetic) towards other people to an incredible degree, and the storyline focusing a lot more on past events than the others did.

MXTX’s use of 3rd person limited is really subtle in places though, and it's interwoven into the story in such a genius way because although the narrators are unreliable because of this perspective, a whole and complete storyline is achieved no matter what. It’s a favourite of mine to discuss because it alters a lot of the general themes and basic characterisation. SVSSS would definitely be a tragedy from anyone else's eyes (for example, Luo Binghe or Yue Qingyuan), and MDZS is just in general a giant mess of characterisation in the first place but would be so much easier to understand without Wei Wuxian’s self-sacrificial eyes not acknowledging that other people have feelings when he continues to do things for them at his own risk.

I’ve noticed I don’t mention TGCF that often and I wanted to rectify that in this post because TGCF is, in general, a vastly different type of story than MDZS and SVSSS. While MDZS also has a non-linear storyline, TGCF takes that to an entirely new (very confusing) level, switching through books to different stages of history. And so, the 3rd person limited isn’t that obvious as her other works but it’s definitely still there! The best example of this is whenever Xie Lian meets a new character, and the very first thing he does is categorise whether they are Handsome or Not, which is indisputably my favourite thing about him.

In conclusion, I like the way MXTX writes things. I feel sick just thinking about how well she writes. It drives me crazy. Next post will be about MXTX and themes/conventions!

Words: 612

Reading time: 3 mins

#mxtx #mo xiang tong xiu #mdzs #mo dao zu shi #svsss #scum villains self saving system #tgcf #tian guan ci fu #wei wuxian meat riders pls don’t attack me #i actually wanted to say more but i know that i'll be busy for a while and wanted to spit out something before i forgot to post something #wei wuxian #wei ying #luo binghe #yue qingyuan #xie lian

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lansplaining · 1 year

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I’m not going to argue nieyao is a canon ship because it isn’t, but I do think it’s significant their names mean the same thing & they end up in the same place & are descended from butchers & prostitutes, who make a living off society’s “carnal” needs & were considered unclean for it. JGY is considered unclean during the teacup scene & NMJ rules the Unclean Realm. JGY died brutally, but when push came to shove he CHOSE to die @ NMJ’s hands. Nieyao are 2 sides of the same coin on a meta level.

I totally get where you're coming from, but I think these are all superficial similarities that just don't hold up to scrutiny. (And to be fair, the ship thing wasn't an idea I introduced, I know that's not the angle you're taking!)

Same names: We don't know Mingjue's name's origin or his feelings about it, and in a book where much is made of many names, that is kind of notable-- in that it's kind of telling us there isn't much there. "Guangyao" is a deliberate insult, but one that JGY embraces because it's the best he's going to get. I guess they're both... the names bestowed (we assume) by their fathers? But also JGY's one borrows from the name given to him by his mother, who cared about him more, and... idk, I'm trying to find a deeper resonance here and I just can't.

Butchers vs prostitutes: The extent to which the Nie clan is no longer tainted by their ancestor's association with butchery is made obvious by everyone's willingness to overlook their incredibly obvious and suspicious tendency to suddenly qi deviate and die. Like there's gossip, but it makes no material impact-- basically everyone admires and respects NMJ. JGY's inability to escape his background colors literally every choice he makes. There's truly no comparison to make here, except I guess to say that by doing what he did, JGY was on the right track to get people to eventually forget his ancestry in, like, a few generations. The Unclean Realm thing is like the distillation of the difference between them: NMJ can live at the borders of the impure and filthy and be unafraid of being tainted, whereas no matter how cautious JGY is, he will never be seen as clean.

Coffin: I think saying JGY "chose" to die at NMJ's hands is... hm. MDZS makes explicit that the wound LXC dealt him is fatal, so whatever else happens, he has already died at LXC's hands. MDZS describes his returning to the coffin and freeing NMJ as, "he was fighting with his last breath to lead Lan XiChen towards Nie MingJue, so that they could die together!"

In my reading, Mingjue is somewhat incidental to the real goal, which is dying with Lan Xichen. Once JGY then decides not to do that and to push Lan Xichen away, literally what else is he supposed to do? He can't get away from NMJ at that point. The description, which is in full here, is shocking and brutal and does not at all read like someone who is willingly delivering himself to death. He made a choice, changed his mind, and now can't get away.

Again, I'm not saying that the things you're seeing aren't there! But the context has been peeled away in such a way that completely changes their meaning, and makes the similarities seem more resonant than they actually are. I absolutely do think that MXTX is trying to embed small resonances to generate a sense of these characters' lives being entwined. But I think that's the extent of the purpose of that repeating imagery: to create a vibe, not to create actual foils. In fact, the inaccurate determination to see their circumstances as equivalent-- or even roughly similar!-- is really at the heart of why NMJ is both so upset about and so wrong about the whole situation.

#ask answered

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superninjanugget · 2 years

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TGCF vol 1 thoughts

(SPOILERS AHEAD!)

Rereading volume 1 for the nth time, and I am just so in awe of MXTX holy hell

Like TGCF is fiiiiled with a heck ton of parallels between characters, right?

Just off the bat, we’re introduced to Xuan Ji and her story is such a gorgeously symbolic start to the series because her obsession with Pei Ming serves as a parallel to Hua Cheng’s devotion to Xie Lian - where Xuan Ji wants Pei Ming to return her affections - to go against his character, Hua Cheng does not expect anything from Xie Lian - to worship him is already a blessing in and of itself.

We immediately get a picture of what Hua Cheng isn’t.

and ofc we have the whole Bai Wuxiang and Xie Lian parallels, the Three Tumors to the Xianle Trio, Lang Qianqiu and Xie Lian and Jun Wu, and it’s just gorgeous okay

BUT YES!! anyway what got me started on this is well uh

it just now occurred to me that Ban Yue and Pei Su serve as a parallel to Hua Cheng and Xie Lian, don’t they??? like specifically Wu Ming and Calamity!Xie Lian?? like lol it was probably obvious in hindsight but holy shit

Ban Yue and Hua Cheng were both instruments that aided Pei Su’s ascension and Xie Lian’s descent/second ascension.

And then after her General Hua’s death, Ban Yue only had Pei Su. The same way that Hua Cheng only really ever had Xie Lian.

Ban Yue helped Pei Su massacre Banyue. The same way that Hua Cheng helped Xie Lian wreak havoc as a calamity - the same exact way he would have helped Xie Lian destroy Yong’An had he actually given in.

And they both suffered, didn’t they? Ban Yue got caught as a traitor and Hua Cheng just about dissipated.

The biggest glaring difference is that Hua Cheng chose to take the curse on his own. Ban Yue was convinced to betray her people for the better outcome, and got the short end of the stick.

Then you have Pei Su and Xie Lian. They both acted for their kingdoms - yeah okay, Pei Su wanted to win and Xie Lian wanted revenge but ANYWAY where Pei Su ascended, Xie Lian would have fallen deeper as a Calamity had he gone through with releasing HFD, but ultimately like Pei Su, Xie Lian ascended too---

----- aaaaaand my brain started to melt ahsdjaldsl so i’ll leave this here lol

But yeah, Pei Su and Ban Yue’s situation could have easily been the ‘lighter’ version to what would have happened to Xie Lian and Hua Cheng had Xie Lian not backed out of cursing Yong’An

hdjfskdlf thanks for reading my ted talk

#tgcf #tgcf spoilers #hua cheng #xie lian #hualian #xuan ji #pei ming #ban yue #pei su

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marquisguyun · 1 year

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mdzs/cql ask meme: 1, 2, 6, 12, 25 :)))

1. which adaptations have you seen/watched? which one do you like best and why?

I’ve watched both the donghua and CQL (and read the book and some of the manhua). I’m not sure if I have a definitive answer to which visual adaptation is better? The donghua is gorgeous, especially all the demonic cultivation in the third season (plus it was my first mdzs adaptation, my first danmei of any kind actually). I do really enjoy CQL tho, and there are things I like and dislike about both adaptations. That answer is a total cop out but it’s also the truth 😂

2. top 5 favorite characters? what specifically do you like about each one?

Okay so I thought I had this, no problem, and then I counted again and realized I had six characters lmao... I’m not doing this in order bc that’s too many decisions to deal with

1. Wei Wuxian - What can I say, I love a tragic hero! I am intrigued by how smart he is (inventing demonic cultivation, lure flags, etc) but also how he makes mistakes and does some really fucked up stuff even tho he has good intentions. A great complex character!

2. Lan Wangji - I mean who doesn't like Hanguang-jun? He's a badass and a romantic, plus he's stubborn as shit. I really appreciate his relationships with the juniors. I also think his whole teenage angst about liking wwx is fantastic, and also him being super horny and dominant... I am a fan of novel dynamics for wangxian's sex life lol

3. Xue Yang & Xiao Xingchen - I am a slut for a good tragedy and for messed up characters! Plus I love identity porn. Yi City and XueXiao were basically tailored to my personal taste.

4. Lan Sizhui - He's just a good boy! And I like the added complexity of his identity.

5. Jiang Cheng - Honestly it took me a little while to latch onto him as hard, but he grew on me steadily. I originally mostly thought about him in relation to WWX, but damn he's been through a lot! Raising his nephew and running his sect on his own after he's lost everything? Really fucking sad and angry about it? That's good shit!

Also want to note that I like all of these characters in all adaptations, but their actors all did a fantastic job in cql and really added to my love for the characters, especially Wang Haoxuan as Xue Yang and Wang Zuocheng as Jiang Cheng!

6. unpopular opinions?

1. I don’t hate Jiang Cheng or Lan Qiren? those can be pretty unpopular opinions

2. I’m a white American and my reading of danmei is definitely colored by my different experiences/worldview... I try to be aware of that as much as I can be and to read meta by Chinese disaspora (EDIT: I wrote this like a year ago and idk where I was going with this, but I think I was trying to say something about how I try to make sure my opinions aren't culturally insensitive? Bc some of the takes you see definitely are)

12. do you like any other of mxtx's works? is mdzs your first of hers or did you watch/read the others first?

It’s less obvious on tumblr bc there’s less content I come across compared to twt but your girl is a Scum Villain main lmao (EDIT: That was written a year ago when I started answering this ask. One of the advantages to twt's whole mess is that there's more scum villain content on tumblr now!!)

That said, I have read all three MXTX novels, watched all three donghuas, watched CQL, and read at least part of all three manhuas (rip sv manhua)

my order of watching/reading (with some overlap) was something like: watched mdzs donghua s1-2 >>> read mdzs novel >>> watched cql >>> started scumbag system >>> started heaven official’s blessing donghua >>> read scum villain >>> read what little there is of the sv manhua >>> waited several months?? and then read tgcf >>> dabbled with mdzs and tgcf manhuas >>> watched mdzs donghua s3

25. queer headcanons?

- I definitely see Wei Wuxian as bi, altho I can understand reading him as a gay man who isn’t actually attracted at all to the women he flirts with - On the other hand, 90% of the time I see Lan Wangji as gay. The other 10% is me going “but what if Wei Ying was a girl tho”

I don’t think I have a lot of definitive non canon queer headcanons for mdzs honestly? There are definitely ones I enjoy and ones I don’t really see, but a lot of times I’m just happy to be taken along for the ride of other people’s headcanons for a fic or meta. Here are a few I’ve enjoyed:

- Asexual Jiang Cheng - Bisexual Jiang Fengmian (in love with Wei Changze) - Trans headcanons/AUs for various characters

#mdzs+#mdzs #cql #clearing out the old drafts #besides the notes i added really the only thing that still needed done was why i liked the characters #apparently i was too lazy to finish that a year ago

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sinterblackwell · 10 months

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2023 - mid-year book freak out tag

yay to getting into danmei. yay to my current read, qiang jin jiu, that’s wrapped itself around my brain.

yay to turning 22, and so as a gift to myself, i wrote to my heart’s content about some of the reads that have stood out to me this year so far.

it was really fun <3 and long lol enjoy

best book you’ve read so far in 2023?

the grandmaster of demonic cultivation (vol. 3) by mxtx

this is actually a much more objective answer, like scum villain would seem the most obvious choice being that it’s my new all-time comfort series but genuinely, the plot and character arcs of mdzs were so truly well-done and completely mind-bending to me, i was obsessed with it through & through.

best sequel you’ve read so far in 2023?

the scum villain’s self-saving system (vol. 2) by mxtx

this is the volume where shen qingqiu/shen yuan really gets himself in deeper trouble as despite how adamant he is that the people he’s contending with, including luo binghe, are simply fictional characters, he twists the story so much that he finds himself enveloped in it. and he soon has to come to face that his actions do have serious consequences that affect the emotions & actions of others.

also the angst….luo binghe was so goddamn heartbroken the whole time and sqq couldn’t even understand it, it was a lot. i loved it.

new release you haven’t read yet but want to?

ascension by nicholas binge

this story reminds me so much of echo by thomas olde heuvelt, one of my top 3 reads of 2022, and while things certainly will be different, i am very excited for what the premise is promising.

most anticipated release for the second half of the year?

the husky & his white cat shizun (vol. 3) by meatbun

this official english translation by seven seas entertainment was set to be released much sooner, im recalling maybe around the first half of the year?? and then it just got set back even further, which absolutely pained me with the way things ended in volume 2. it was definitely probably for a good reason since it promises that the translation will give the story a lot of justice by being more thorough, but damn 🥲

imagine starting this series in late january and then finding out you won’t get to know what happens next for about seven whole months. i’ve had lots of experience at this point, you would think i’d be used to it, but i simply am not. what makes it worse is that there are already fans out there who know what happens, they know the story from beginning to end. and for those who couldn’t understand chinese, there were fan translations to help include those better with english into the fandom, but now that’s gone, since seven seas has taken the rights of the official english translations.

this volume isn’t set to come out until september. i wholeheartedly cannot wait another moment, and yet i am simply here….waiting :’)

biggest disappointment?

maniac (necessary evils, #7) by onley james

you know….this series is not perfect by any means. the writing can be pretty average every once in a while, the dialogue cringey at times and almost juvenile, even, despite how dark the content is. but the author writes one hell of a case for each book, and it’s a very unique premise for the story as a whole. this is the same author who completely changed me after reading asa & zane’s story in headcase, making me break outside of my comfort zone when it came to what i consume in romance; and the fact that i actually enjoyed it??

as someone who has just recently experienced this same thing with danmei, this is something i’ll always appreciate her for because it was a huge jump out of my comfort zone that i would’ve never given a second thought to before but i was already five books into the series so there was no turning back, i was committed.

with this very interesting take on the found family trope, and the clear care that the author took regarding the subject of these psychopaths handling these grim cases, i was very much sad about having to say goodbye to the characters because i don’t think this is something i could’ve read by anyone else, and i don’t think there’s anything similar. so it made it even more disappointing when with this particular relationship in this final book, all the build-up that had been written of this dynamic from all the way back to unhinged, just suddenly collapsed and didn’t feel nearly fully resolved. the subject matter, especially with thomas’ painful backstory, was just as dark and difficult to read as the others, and it felt personal because of course it was, he was the center of this entire project that made this story. but….it was hard to reckon with knowing how the plot itself actually was pretty solid but then just kinda tied itself up way too neatly by the end?

i like this found family, i really really do, and it’s nice to know that they get their happy endings, but the way it was written felt so easy. what these characters were doing were pretty huge on a national scale and all eyes are on them due to their fame & popularity, and yes i can believe that the system maybe is just that oblivious, maybe that’s why they’re even doing this in the first place, but a part of me was hoping to see much more tension, more stakes built that puts these characters all in all in a very precarious position. this final book hints at that in the synopsis but it doesn’t follow through that well, because again, everything just seemed pretty rushed and a bit lackluster in execution once this final mystery was solved with a bloody red bow. the closest to these characters getting into any trouble was when zane in headcase, as a budding crime reporter, was actually pretty damn close to completely unraveling all the secret dealings that the mulvaney family were involved with. but then he meets asa, and well…here he goes becoming a part of the mulvaneys and easing into their operation with his own skill set as a reporter, which you gotta love for him.

if i look at this from a different angle, i can see another reader possibly enjoying this because again, this series could just be a nod to how fucked up the justice system is that a group of psychopaths are the ones to rid these terrible people off the streets. what they’re doing isn’t evil at all, it’s just as a minor character tells zane in headcase, that if what the mulvaneys were doing was to be revealed to the whole goddamn world, a great majority would probably be thankful for it because these people they’re taking out are genuinely awful and completely irredeemable. so no, i don’t wish for the mulvaneys to get punished, they’ve already been through enough in their own pasts and they deserve to get to live this very unconventional and comfortable life with each other; especially noah and zane.

is this an outcome that any good therapist would wish for these two in particular?? hell no….but they’re happy and they’ve been through enough neglect & abuse in their childhoods, let them be pampered by their psychopathic lovers and be part of a family that has well and done proven they would literally kill for them to secure their protection….because they already have.

at the end of the day, i guess for a finale…i just expected more, personally?? and it felt a little flat for me is all. the more time goes on, the more i don’t feel all that positive about my enjoyment of the final book. but i still have soft feelings for the characters, and it does kill me to think i simply don’t understand the story as well as i wish i could’ve.

the ending just wasn’t entirely for me, sad to say. and the writing, didn’t do a lot as i hoped for.

so yeah….there’s that 😅 (i’m definitely using this as my goodreads review)

biggest surprise?

hawk mountain by connor habib

see, the writing style was pretty interesting, which was a bit of a surprise on its own since it was just so completely unlike a lot of what i’m used to reading. but even more so, the big surprise lied in a plot twist that happened in the story. and now, with this twist, it was something i already had predicted, but it happened so much sooner than i had thought and so to see how the author wrote the aftermath, the next 200 or so pages that were still left in the book, it was very impressive, making the story that much more intense to me, and it also made me appreciate what he was doing at all.

i also would say another surprise is just the fact that i even read this book at all since i literally read it in the spur of the moment after first hearing about it in a booktube video where the creator was being recommended this title and the words “an English teacher is gaslit by his charismatic high school bully” immediately made me check out this story on libby, which!! would you look at that?? it was available.

i wasn’t reading anything else at the moment since at the time, i had to wait to read the next volume for tgcf, so that definitely made for a memorable reading experience :’)

new favorite author?

rou bao bu chi rou, aka ‘meatbun doesn’t eat meat’

if we’re looking at the numbers, mxtx would actually be the one who’s a new favorite since i’ve read all her translated books up to this point. and while i do respect her a ton as an author, meatbun just really stands out with only two of the works i’ve been able to read by her: dumb husky & his white cat shizun + yuwu.

yuwu especially, even though i’ve only read the first volume in the seven seas eng. translation, it made a huge impression on me because of how much i loved the way this particular author writes her characters. there’s a different brand of humor that’s unlike mxtx, which makes it difficult to compare, but the relationships meatbun has her characters involved in in particular, especially the main pairing, really throw me for a loop because they’re like the definitions of tragic lovers, but there’s still so much more going on in the story, so much deception and political struggles going on, i deeply enjoy every bit of it. yeah there’s a lot of angst, but the yearning….i can’t get enough. especially being in mo xi’s pov.

newest fictional crush?

i….do not have one. the closest ones i can come up with are michael stirling from when he was wicked by julia quinn + wyatt mckinley from how to say i do by tal bauer. and this is just because they’re definitely my most favorite love interests i’ve read this year so far :’)

newest favorite character?

- jiang cheng from grandmaster of demonic cultivation by mxtx

it’s as i said to another reader friend of mine (i’m doing this word for word lol):

he has anger issues. a bitter human being. he lashes out pretty quickly because he doesn’t like being seen as vulnerable. he turned out very closely like his dead mother, who was abusive, but it wasn’t written all black & white, at least the story didn’t make it so but the fandom took it upon themselves to do as such. he lost a lot and the way cultivation society manipulated that to make him turn against his own brother, was very hard to read.

he’s so complicated, i love that in characters. i love characters who get so many chances to be better and they have that potential but their own vices make them fall short, they just…feel so bittersweet, and they have these moments where the sweet shines through a little, but it’s not permanent. it’s there, but it’s fleeting.

book that made you cry?

ahem….heaven official’s blessing (vol. 4) by mxtx

TWO words: blackwater arc

book that made you happy?

- sent to a fantasy world and now all the men want me (vol. 1) by jaclyn osborn

no, this is not a manga, but it has all the tropes seen in a book where the mc is “isekai’d into a fantasy world and magically gets into a harem” (as said by a friend when i was speaking to them about it). and they were right!!

at first, i was going to list the true love experiment by christina lauren as the winner but just a few days ago, i finished this story, and it was so ridiculous and fun and heartwarming and had such an interesting world for evan & me to dive into, i couldn’t help myself putting it on here.

it’s so incredibly self-indulgent, and it just makes the story even better. i already miss kuya and can’t wait to see him & sawyer get their happy ending in the future because it will come. same for lake, lake is a sweetheart who deserves better.

most beautiful book you bought this year?

- all the sinners bleed by s.a. cosby (x)

literally just bought this book and i gotta say, 75% of the reason was because of how stunning the blood moon is on the cover :’)

books you really need to read by the end of the year?

- dark heir (dark rise, #2) by c.s. pacat

- all the hidden paths (the tithenai chronicles, #2) by foz meadows

technically, these books don’t even come out until the end of the year. but i know damn well that is there no way i’m not reading them before the world turns 2024.

dark heir i have been waiting for for about TWO years now, and all the hidden paths was a pleasant discovery since the first book read pretty much as standalone; but with how expansive the worldbuilding was and same for the court intrigue, plus all the drama that happened near the end, it only makes sense that there’s still a lot to uncover in this universe so i am very much looking forward to it.

#❣️#i was this 👌🏽 close to not publishing this at all and then i remembered this is my blog and i like writing stuff like this so yeah :’)#just something for me to look back on on this app #booklr

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abigail-nicole · 1 year

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tgcf liveread 9

being the live-read of that time i read tgcf for the first time, truly a magical experience i would recommend to all, if you like gay stories, fantasy stories, or perfectly-written stories, then perhaps buy official english translations of Heaven Official's Blessing

originally tweeted 4/1/2020:

I also can’t want to see this animated, in five years when the donghua gets to it

gays pointing out misogyny

Another little mxtx horror gem featuring bai wuxiang

this Thing Obviously Impersonating Hua Cheng (But Doing A Bad Job) is adding so much extra horror to a scene which is already filled with creepy, fleeting glimpses of Bai Wuxiang. Horror level 10

nicely done confirmation that Fu Yao and Nan Feng were just Mu Qing and Feng Xin for a long time. That was pretty obvious from the dynamics

hahahahshahshsjs omg this dynamic

I literally burst out laughing so loudly at this fourth wall call out by Mu Qing & Feng Xin

the Cave Full Of Statues Of Himself thing is INCREDIBLY creepy !!!!!

i screamed in my empty apartment

.... i need to do some online shopping & process this a second while I think about buying an eighth bathrobe

so this is kinda like Hua Cheng’s stalker cave huh, while he was hoping to play it cool

I say that with LOVE i still adore crimson rain sought flower and hualian

He’s all like I HAD THE RED STRING, I GAVE HIM THE RING, WHY THE ASSHOLE CHILDHOOD FRIENDS GOTTA COME ALONG AND EXPOSE MY STALKER CAVE

Rip feng xin & mu qing who are about to get murdered by hua cheng

who IS the white-clothed man who is CLEARLY the favorite to win Mt Tong’lu’s Next Top Ghost King??? I’m scared of him & Hua Cheng better step up

it’s....Him, isn’t it....!!!!!!!!

HE BOYFRIENDS LOVE EACH OTHER THEIR LOVE CAN WITHSTAND THE STALKER CAVE.

ok I was wrong nothing was impersonating hua cheng But he Was acting suspicious. Like, What If He Finds Out How Long I’ve Liked Him, What If He Realizes I Was A Nerd In School And Filled My Locker With Art Of Us suspicious

ahhhhhhh Clean Water, Pure Air,,,,,, Hualian Happy Together

Xie Lian: oh no

Hua Cheng: what? I won’t let Bai Wuxiang get near you!

Xie Lian: Oh no.....it’s so hot when you’re mad.....

Xie Lian’s reaction to seeing the cave that Hua Cheng filled with statues and art of him: so he DOES like-like me!!!!

When I found out where his ashes were & spoiled it for myself I was so mad & now these cryptic comments are even MORE ROMANTIC

A WISP OF HUA CHENG BACKSTORY? I’M SO STARVED FOR IT

“It’s not like it’s anything hard” UNLIKE XIE LIAN’S DICK AFTER THIS SCENE OH MY GOD I NEED TO LIE DOWN

Hua Cheng is about to Ghost King Level Up!!!!!!!!!!! Watch Out!!!! Oh my god

Every time I turn a page I expect AND SCENE! END OF BOOK THREE!!! is it gonna be KISS? is it gonna be HANDS HOLD JUMP INTO KILN? its gonna be somewhere Maximum Suspense is reached

THE SUSPENSE HERE IS KILLING ME AHHHH it just KEEPS BUILDING

the suspense is so bad that....I better stop reading & tweet every other paragraph so I can scream more about how AHHHHHHHHHH i am about this

I clearly remember every book I read that made me start wanting to eat the pages halfway thru because I was so into it & this is one

REMEMBER WHEN I TALKED ABOUT GHOST KING MAGICAL GIRL FLOWER CROWN MARTIAL PRINCE XIE LIAN WELL

Hahaha and THERE is the end of book 3 okay oh boy someone get me a beta blocker for my heart rate oh god

Predixns: Book-4-flashback.mov then I suspect our dianxia will just turn up in a forest somewhere, having gently jumped ahead several months, been missing, collecting trash, and there will be Some Backstory & we’ll never get the details of how he came out of the Kiln

Predixns the sequel: while dianxia is trapped in the Burial Moun—I mean the Kiln, the world will go to shit & hua cheng will be Big Mad & Take It Out On Everyone

I read this on april fool’s because I am The Fool

More proof xie lian is god of millennials: centuries of eating trash and being free while ignoring the news

Book Four! Starting next time on tgcf liveread part ten!!!!

#tgcf #tgcf liveread

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celairdes · 2 years

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book 1 tgcf thoughts (as someone who hasn’t read danmei before!)

- im still kinda learning my way thru the terms of the genre but surprisingly i find most of them intuitive and easy to understand! the footnotes help a lot

- i absolutely did not expect this book to be so funny 😭 and the humor translates pretty well even across diff languages! my favorite part is probably the ju wang joke like the set up is so elaborate it just sends me HWBBEBDBF.

- this isn’t a negative take, but im still trying to wrap my head around how time scales in the book?? like duh theyre gods but idk 800 years feels sooo long and its my first time reading a book where the protag and main cast actually are around for that long of a timespan.

- the comedic timing is honestly incredible 😭 the way heavy events r broken up by funny chaotic scenes is well spaced out and it’s a good breather from everything

- xie lian is a really interesting (and funny) narrator!!! im so invested in him as a protagonist and their backstory. i think it’s an interesting choice for this specific part of his life to be how we’re introduced to him, and i somehow feel like i still dont know him at all despite him being the Literal Narrator. very good writing! we also know now that he can be a pretty unreliable narrator based on gilded banquet, so excited to see how that affects the books that focus on his backstory.

- to add, part of why xl is so interesting is because he is somehow involved with every single damn thing so far. banyue arc? yeah he gave some food to some kids. qi rong? thats his COUSIN. gilded banquet? he was somehow involved! crimson rain sought flower? idk what their history is but it’s there! he somehow has personal stakes in every arc.

- hua cheng [sobs]. i get the hype now about mxtx love interests because that is how you Write one! it’s kinda hilarious how xl describes him because he somehow is able to identify every nuance to hc but his romantic feelings for him 😭 which… understandable! i also would not assume a literal ghost king would be in love with him but my god is he obvious about it!!!

- hua cheng deserves a 2nd bullet point! the way he acts around xl, it’s giving quiet but unwavering devotion and i am so curious! to know why he’s like this!! the moments that stand out to me r the ones where he really lets his rage take over, because most of the time… xl is on the receiving end of the transgression. when hc nearly loses his shit @ qr for the statue… wow wow wow

#cath reads tgcf #good book!

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grewlikefancyflowers · 3 years

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‘Intrusion’ extra, what it says about Jiang Cheng’s role in MDZS, and how Wei Wuxian looks back on his past with the Jiangs

I said back in like June that I’d write meta on this and then put it off for a few months, oops! Here we are, finally!

First things first, both the ‘Intrusion’ and ‘Iron Hook’ extras are not just silly romps featuring married wangxian and fanservice, as some people seem to believe?? I’d say both of them clear up pretty neatly, for those that are still confused, points of contention in the fandom - such as Wei Wuxian’s heroism, and Jiang Cheng’s role as an antagonist. Specifically, if his actions were justified or sympathetic, and if he was punished unfairly by the narrative.

The first and most obvious statement made in ‘Intrusion’ is the parallel between the story of Young Master Qin (YMQ), and JC and WWX’s youths. I’ll summarise quickly the relationship between YMQ and the fierce corpse that has been bothering him.

They grew up together in YMQ’s grandmother’s house, since they were a similar age they played together

The fierce corpse (FC) was a servant in YMQ’s grandmother’s household

The grandmother took a liking to FC, and he was in some ways treated less like a servant, and more like a member of their clan, and was allowed to attend school with the other boys

YMQ specifically notes that his grandmother used to praise FC a lot

YMQ describes a story at the school in which someone answered a question, and FC incorrectly claimed he answered wrongly. When FC pushed the matter, the other students became annoyed and drove him out of the class

It is very heavily implied (to the point where ‘implied’ isn’t really the right word) that ‘someone’ was YMQ, that he had actually answered the question wrongly, and that he felt shown up by someone he felt should be below him proving so, and that he led the other boys in driving FC away

FC left the school and didn’t attend again

I probably don’t need to lay out where the similarities are…?

In response to YMQ’s story, Wei Wuxian (rhetorically) says this - ‘“Regarding the solution to that problem, in the end, who was right and who was wrong?”’

Aside from just exposing the kind of person YMQ is, in reference to a story wherein ‘FC’ is clearly a stand in for WWX, and YMQ for JC, MXTX’s decision to highlight specifically that it was FC that had the right solution to the problem is not insignificant. Nor how she specifies that he was the instigator of FC’s expulsion, while hiding behind the mob mentality of the other students.

Another interesting detail is that YMQ deliberately obscures the truth throughout the chapter, because despite his refusal to acknowledge it, possibly even to himself, he knows that between him and FC he is the one in the wrong. Similarly, JC obscures the truth about WWX, to the wider cultivation world during the period of WWX’s ‘downfall,’ (Ch.73) but also, more importantly, to JL after WWX’s death. JL believes that WWX ordered WN to kill both JZX and JYL (Ch.42). Of course, if JC did not have a guilty conscience, he would not feel it necessary to lie about these things. Or rather, convince himself that they are true, as he still blames WWX for the deaths of his parents’ and JYL and the end of the story (Ch.102).

YMQ’s attitude about servants is bad enough that it upsets Sizhui quite a lot, and shortly after their interaction with him, we have this exchange between LSZ and Wangxian.

‘Lan SiZhui thought about it, “I do not know either.” He responded with honesty, “He never did anything truly evil, but perhaps I find it difficult to deal with people of such character. I do not particularly like the tone with which he mentioned the word ‘servant’…”

He paused at this point. Wei WuXian was oblivious to it, “Typical, typical. Most of the people in this world looks down upon servants. Servants sometimes even look down upon themselves… Why are you two looking at me like that?”

Halfway through, he interrupted, not knowing whether to laugh or frown, “Stop—is there a misunderstanding here? How could I compare? Lotus Pier isn’t the usual household, after all. I’ve beaten Jiang Cheng up way more times than he’s ever beaten me!”

Lan WangJi didn’t say anything, but instead gave him a silent hug. Wei WuXian couldn’t help but smiled. He hugged back, stroking Lan WangJi’s back a couple of times. Lan SiZhui coughed. Seeing how confident Wei WuXian looked, not at all sensitive to the word ‘servant’, he was finally at ease.’

There’s a lot going on here...

Firstly, WWX definitely does not think badly of himself because his father was a servant, because WWX doesn’t think badly of servants. It is also true that Lotus Pier wasn’t so strict with hierarchy as other sects (Ch.51, Ch.71), and that WWX and JC sometimes playfully fought on equal terms in their youths. But WWX was also very clearly treated badly in the Jiang household due to his status, notably by YZY (Ch.51, Ch.56, Ch.57, Lotus Seed Pod extra), JC does also repeatedly enact real physical violence against WWX, that he simply brushes off (Ch.56, Ch.59). You could argue that the example from Ch.59 is under extenuating circumstances and therefore should not count, but the same excuse cannot apply to Ch.56.

Knowing this, Lan Wangji’s response to this, to hug WWX, does not feel casual at all. Instead it comes across as if he is offering comfort, which WWX accepts.

Finally, this exchange finishes with ‘Seeing how confident Wei WuXian looked, not at all sensitive to the word ‘servant’, he [LSZ] was finally at ease.’ To me, this seems to suggest that the entire purpose of this was not at all reader directed exposition about how good and equal the Jiang household was, but rather a WWX-typical veneer meant to appease LSZ’s concerns (taking a moment to quietly fangirl about how good MXTX is at ‘show, don’t tell’). Also suggests that WWX is aware on some level that he was treated badly, and LWJ is too - presumably, it is something that they have spoken about.

Continuing with the story of YMQ and FC…

YMQ returns to his home village as an adult wearing a jade pendant that belonged to his now deceased grandmother

FC asks to borrow it, YMQ allows it, thinking FC is missing his grandmother

FC returns telling him he has lost the pendant, YMQ thinks he has actually sold it, and has him beaten, it is very heavily implied that he breaks his leg

In the present, YMQ admits that he doesn’t actually think FC would have gone so far as to sell something of his grandmother’s

This is reflective of JC’s attitude towards WWX throughout his life, with regards to how he frequently comes to the worst conclusions about him, without having any real evidence, and lashes out at him for it. I spoke about this a bit before here. Most notable example is probably during their conversation in the demon-slaughtering cave wherein they discuss WWX’s defection, and JC decides that WWX is acting carelessly and playing the hero, though admits himself that WWX is following the Jiang Sect’s teachings, then declares WWX an enemy of the cultivation world behind his back.

The ambiguity of FC’s death, and YMQ’s role in it discussed in part 3 of the extra is referencing WWX’s own death, and JC’s role in it. In the end the conclusion is that whether or not YMQ was responsible, FC did not hold him to it.

In the end, FC is content to simply throw some fruit, and punch YMQ in the face in vengeance for his death, and even goes out of his way to avoid hurting LSZ when he is fighting him. He returns the jade pendant, that he really did lose and not steal, and goes back to resting peacefully.

WWX, LWJ, and LSZ’s views on YMQ’s fate are as follows

‘Lan WangJi gently tugged Lil’ Apple’s rein, his voice calm, “He was fortunate.”

Wei WuXian agreed, “Indeed. Young Master Qin has got quite the luck.”

After some time, Lan SiZhui finally couldn’t hold his words back any longer. Sincerely, he spoke, “But I still feel that only one punch might be a bit insufficient…”’

JC didn’t even get a punch to the face. I’d say he got off very lightly indeed.

#mdzs #mdzs meta #jiang cheng #jc wank #wei wuxian

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isolatedbubble · 3 years

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Romance in MXTX, Priest, and SHL

MXTX: Flower, Wine and Dreamworld

The romance in MXTX's works is like flower that grows in ice and snow; colorful, bright and hopelessly romantic, blossoms in misery and hardships.

It features a distinct "us against the world" mindset, depicting love as the only constant in the world. It's an eternal "dreamworld" detached from worldly matters, the perfect escapism as well as a source of strengths in the face of cruel reality.

Both MDZS and TGCF are a critique of mob mentality.

The contrast between CQL and MDZS is very interesting. While the former ends with LWJ taking charge, and therefore changing the world for the better, the novel ends with wangxian isolating themselves from grand politics and focusing more on helping individuals as recluse. It has an essentially pessimistic attitude towards the morality & intelligence of the collective.

TGCF takes a slightly more optimistic approach, featuring the crowd being courageous under the right circumstances. However, both works share a similar undertone: putting one’s absolute faith in the collective is dangerous, whereas unconditional trust and devotion can be only found in one-to-one connection

MXTX herself compares MDZS and TGCF to 花间一壶酒 (A cup of wine among flowers), MDZS being the wine and TGCF being flower. She also compares MDZS to 风雪夜归人, the person returning home from snow and wind, and TGCF to 红泥小火炉, a small red furnace.

Priest: Breezing Wind and Burning Iron

The romance in priest's works is more complicated. It's the most gentle in its normal state, when it is rational and collected, in which case it's like the breezing wind, soothing, sweet and light-hearted. It gives the individuals more incentive to achieve their individual and/or societal vision, as well as more reason to value their own lives & well-being.

In Faraway Wanderers, the most distinct feature of WenZhou relationship is how in naturally sync they are, and how comfortable & smooth their dynamic is. They both have past burden, but it doesn’t matter, because they bring simple joy, understanding and happiness in each other’s lives.

In Sha Po Lang and The Guardian, the ML’s lingering love for the MC motivates them to become better version of themselves, to care about others, and to form a holistic vision about bettering society.

In The Defective, Lin Jingheng(MC) explicitly said that Lu Bixing(ML) is the only meaning in his life. He had little incentive to care about his own life after his revenge plan fell apart. LBX helped him reconnect with his inner idealism, and gave him a reason value his life.

When the passion and fiery energy manifests itself, however, the romance is like burning iron, blood and fire. It isn’t actually toxic or unhealthy, but it's not pure and innocent either; in this case, it strives for something deeper and more intense, never content with the past or the present. The sheer intensity of relationship is like a double-edged sword, walking the fine line between unconditional devotion and dangerous obsession.

SHL: Spring Water and Healing Open Wounds

The romance in SHL is like "spring water"; it's warm, gentle, nurturing. It breaks through the boundary between individuals to bring the couple closer to each other, taking them back to a utopia of their childhood dream, away from social pressure and responsibility. The theme central to their relationship is “salvation”: how love is able to bring people back to integrity.

Both drama wkx and drama zzs have lots of regret about their past sins and wrongdoings. Four Seasons Manor is essentially a metaphor for purity, acceptance and the safety of childhood home. How to make drama wkx open up and accept this safe harbor as his home is one of the most significant plot-lines of the show.

SHL couple is way more emotionally vulnerable and expressive. A significant part of SHL arc is healing the wounds in an open and honest way. They cuddle and confide in each other way more often, talk about their shameful past and even cry about their regrets in front of one another, which is very rare among MXTX/Priest works.

The heat of the relationship sometimes gets too hot and even burns; in other words, there are constant miscommunications, conflicts and misunderstandings in the relationship. However, they can never let each other go, because it's the only source of warmth left for them in their hopeless lives filled with regrets and guilt.

Similarities and Differences

*Note that this is not a SHL/TYK comparison. TYK is kind of an “unorthodox” priest novel; you will know what I mean if you have read 3+ of her works.

Relationship Dynamic & Narrative:

In MXTX’s works, the concept of “romance” itself is divined; and the characters are illustration of the ideal of “undying love”. People are made for one another, to complete one another. Her works use colorful symbolism (silver butterflies, the emperor’s smile, the 3 thousand lanterns, etc.) to depict this romanticized ideal of love.

For MXTX, the romanticization of “destined love” is one of the most recurring themes of her novels. Therefore, the readers look at their relationship through rose-color glasses. Obsession is usually framed in a jolly & romantic light, and doesn’t feature much tension or stress, and has less negative or unhealthy undertone.

In most of priest’s works and SHL, soulmates are not born but made, so they have to figure out how their relationship works step by step. Therefore the narrative is less of a “rosy picture”.

Priest has a habit of using derogatory terms to describe relationships that are mostly healthy, but somewhat “bloody” and edgy, full of excessive passion and obsession. The most common phrase is “爱生忧怖”, a Buddhist term meaning “love results in worry and fear”.

SHL obviously has to be more subtle in expressing love. That said, drama WenZhou are way more emotionally vulnerable and expressive than their novel counterparts, as well as most Priest & MXTX characters. They have a dramatic falling out once in a while, even towards the end. They barely fit the Chinese definition of Zhiji (to know me/to understand one another), but are “lovers” who are buried deep in their passion instead.

Past, Future and Evolvement:

In SHL, characters are encouraged to treasure past impressions that are thrown in figurative “wrappings”, whose luster is derived from age-old experiences (Psychological Types, Carl Jung). In other words, they are encouraged to root their love in a shared past, a Utopia of innocence.

The contrast between The Defective and Word of Honor is very interesting to observe. Both involve long separation, and the suffering and personality changes hat comes from it. SHL narrative frames their innocent childhood as something to cling to and return to. Drama WKX is encouraged to accept his identity as Four Seasons Manor disciple because it was part of his childhood past. This is a significant part of drama WenZhou relationship.

In The Defective, the narrative doesn't encourage the couple to dwell on the past that much. On the contrary, the all-knowing AI explicitly discouraged the MC from “comparing past to present”. They are advised to accept changes, however painful it might be, and build a better, more equal dynamic out of it, evolving from one-sided pandering to fighting side-by-side.

In Priest’s novels, the characters rarely return to something in the past, but look into the future. Change is usually framed as inherently beneficial, albeit usually painful and rocky, the implication being that you need to constantly strive for something better.

Sha Po Lang is a good example of this, with Gu Yun’s changing attitude towards Chang Geng after he as he matures, gradually showing his intelligence in politics. CG starts referring to GY as Zixi instead of YiFu is also a sign of this change---to see him as equal rather than a parental figure & protector.

The Defective is even more obvious in this regard, with both parties uncomfortable with the change initially, but gradually adjusting to the changes during their 16-year separation. The ML also stops calling MC by his surname “Lin”, as a sign of viewing him as equal.

In MXTX’s works, change in personality or relationship dynamic is neither framed as painful or good. It just happens. It’s a natural flow that take place when it does. Their relationships are rarely challenged by change. They are objectively at a better place compared to their past, but it’s merely the result of a series of events rather than a deliberate choice or struggle.

WangXian’s relationship naturally changes over time after WWX’s rebirth, but neither of them really struggles with the change.

Xie Lian doesn’t even recognize Hua Cheng as the someone from his past, so they start out as friends getting to know each other.

Salvation and Changing one another:

Priest herself stated in an interview that she doesn’t believe in the concept of salvation, since people have the inner capacity to be their own savior. Therefore, priest characters usually don’t actively try to change their partner’s morals or personality. Some might be willingly influenced by their partner, but there’s rarely an element of moral condemnation. Even when there is a conflict between different values, the options are 1) to reconcile them by choosing the middle ground 2) to maintain their independence and tackle it with nuance 3) to break up.

On surface level, Mo Du/Silent Reading is about Luo Wenzhou being Fei Du’s salvation. However, as LWZ pointed out himself, Fei Du would’ve been a good person at heart with or without his influence.

In The Defective, when Lu Bixing mistakenly thought Lin Jingheng stayed in the Eighth Galaxy against his own wishes because of their relationship, and that their priorities are irreconcilable, he even thought about breaking up. Of course he was not serious about it, but this showcased that he would never try to change LJH’s convictions.

In SHL, however, the concept of salvation is central to the theme. Some find it strange that SHL make drama zzs the more “moral” one of the two, despite his action being more objectively questionable. In fact, the only reason he get framed as more “moral” is that he admitted his fault sooner, and therefore could guide drama wkx’s path back to salvation: to recognize the goodness in people, make peace with external world, to clear his name in Jianghu, and to follow due process with his revenge plan to avoid collateral damages.

“I tried to change you, but you end up changing me”, said drama ZZS. This relationship dynamic is never present in any of priest’s works I’ve read. Priest characters don’t *try* to change one another.

Does MXTX believe in salvation? Hard to tell. One could argue that Hua Cheng would have be way more amoral and even immoral if it hadn’t been for XL. This is complicated and is a topic for another time.

However, it is certain that MXTX MCs don’t condemn each other morally. “The orthodox one defending their unorthodox partner in front of the world” is a common wuxia trope, but the way MXTX novels approach it is very different from SHL.

HuaLian never had a serious falling out about being on different sides. Even when they disagree, they respect each other and love each other exactly the way they are. Hua Cheng didn’t approve of Xie Lian saving Mu Qing, but he didn’t interfere with Xie Lian’s decision. Xie Lian feels responsible for helping Shi Qingxuan in Blackwater arc, but he is perfectly fine with HC helping He Xuan keep secrets. In several cases where they have different values, they are able to make it work with ease.

LWJ never *morally* condemned WWX for his action, and never once objected to WWX practicing demonic cultivation after his rebirth. In fact, LWJ never objected to WWX’s morals; in their previous life he was worried about his safety, and struggled with what to do about certain situations due to his family background, but difference in morality is not an issue for them.

The “righteous” one does not feel the need to guide their unorthodox partner or to be their salvation with regards to integrity.

*The similarity & differences part is a bit messy and some points are not fleshed-out. Sorry about that.

**I don’t claim to have the right interpretation. The lens by which we see different styles of romance is ultimately subjective.

#mdzs #tgcf #mxtx #tian ya ke #mdzs meta #word of honor #shl #sha po lang #mo du #can ci pin

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mzdsanalysis · 3 years

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Wei Wuxian’s Actions and Morality:

I am kind of confused on some parts, and i would really appreciate it if someone is willing to discuss it with me. It’s regarding Wei Wuxian, and his exact involvement in the events at the Accident at Qiongqi Path and Bloodbath of Nightless City.

Now, at the accident at Quiongqi path, Wei Wuxian and Wen Ning were just going to Koi tower for the full month celebration to which they had been invited to. Jin Zixun ambushes and threatens to kill him if he doesn’t remove the hundred hole curse. Wei wuxian tries to explain that he didn’t cast the curse and isn’t guilty (admittedly he could have done it in a better way). Jin zixun doesn’t believe him and continues to threaten him. Jin Zixuan appears, tries to diffuse the tension, but still insists that wei wuxian comes along to answer the accusations. Wei wuxian doesn’t believe him (he isn’t wrong to. Guys show up with a whole gang, accuse him of something he didn’t do, and then ask him willingly to come along to “resolve” the issue, though they had spent the past year slandering him and wanting to murder the people he is trying to protect. Just getting into his perspective of things.) Wei wuxian gets angry and accuses Jin zixuan of being on the whole thing, and is agitated and afraid. Which is when he loses control of the resentful energy, which extends to his control of wen ning, and that’s how wen ning, not currently being in control of his body, punches a hole into Jin Zixuan and kills him. Now, automatically, I am going to absolve Wen Ning of any guilt. He is literally NOT in control of his own body. He did that due to the Wei wuxian controlling him with resentful energy. But Wei wuxian also isn’t completely guilty. He was upset, confused, and to some extent scared. But not even subconsciously was he planning or intending to kill Jin zixuan. He lost control over the resentful energy. He put wen ning is a specific state, and then lost control over him, due to not being able to regulate his own emotions during the whole chaos. An accident. An accident that led to someone innocent being killed, but an accident none the less.

Now, I expect different peoples take on this is going to deviate somewhat and that’s fine. I am cool with it. In my opinion, he isn’t completely guilty, but is still responsible. He did not have the intention to kill Jin zixuan, but he DID kill him. It was because of the resentful energy that he was still learning about and how to control it. But if you are going to use a knife after everyone telling you it’s dangerous – although they are doing it just because they don’t want you to have the knife, they want themselves having the knife, while at the same time threating to kill your friends, so you don’t exactly have a choice, but use a freaking knife to, you know, NOT DIE – when you accidently stab someone, it’s still somewhat on you. Lan Zhan had warned him that it could end up badly if he did loose control over the resentful energy and wen ning, and wei wuxian dismissed it. But it was still something he was experimenting with and researching, and hadn’t completely figured out. So it’s not like he didn’t care or was dismissing that it was a bad thing, just that he genuinely didn’t think it would happen. He has been controlling it so far, and everything has been fine, and since he doesn’t exactly have any other options, he will have to continue using it, despite the arguments on the dangers of it.

Now, the bloodbath at Nightless City. Wei wuxian already knows at this point that wen ning and wen qing are dead, and he heads there to atleast collect their ashes and bring them back. When he arrives at the pledge conference, all the sects attending, all 3000, are collected together, and Jin Guangshan makes his speech. He announced that both wens are dead, and then spreads the ashes, the ones Wei ying had come to collect. Then announces that they were going on next day to kill the rest of wens anyway, along with wei ying, to loud applause from the crowd in attendance. Its only then wei wuxian makes his presence known. Before that, he was just listening on. Jin Guangshan makes some more accusations: at Qiongqi Path wei wuxian killed Lanlingjin sect members, the ones jin zixun brought to ambush him, and that wei ying is the one who made wen ning go in a rampage at koi tower (a lie. While jin zixuan’s death at wen ning – actually wei wuxian’s – was an accident, the rampage at koi tower, as we know for a fact, wasn’t an accident (confirmed by MXTX’s interview.) I am not sure if it was mentioned in the book, but from what I can recall, it was xue yang. I might be wrong, but it was still done on Jin Guangshan’s orders. So the deaths of members of the other sect’s members, Lan and Nie, and the others, lie not at wei wuxian’s feet but Jin Guangshan’s. Wei wuxian doesn’t take the accusations silently, and argues back: he was the one who was ambushed, who almost got killed. He has every right to defend himself against the men Jin Zixun brought to attack and kill him. The crowd says he shouldn’t have been so heartless, and in wei wuxian’s own words: no matter what the other sects throw at him, no matter how hard they try to harm and kill him, he is not allowed to touch them, harm their members, defend himself or fight back even if it cost him his life. The sects throw in their final arguments in:

Even if he was fighting back, it doesn’t account for the 130 people who died at koi tower at hands of wen ning.

He shouldn’t defend the wens. They are horrible and evil and guilty and deserve to die.

He is only doing it for his pride, and to prove himself a hero.

He laid the curse on Jin zixun.

Each of them are easily nullified.

Wei wuxian didn’t cause wen’s ning rampage. Jin Guangshan did. The 130 lives are on his own hands, not wei wuxians.

People aren’t guilty by association, especially by family relation. None of the wen remnants have any blood on their hands. They are from wen qing’s branch and are non-combatants, thus they were not involved in any of the Wen Ruhon’s actions. Nor were they involved in at the accident at Qiongqi Path or Koi tower. They are innocent.

The argument about his pride came from their attitude towards him from before his defection. They had admired his powers and were intimated by it, but didn’t like that he belonged to Jiang sect, and wasn’t willing to change his loyalties to belong to them instead. He also dared being defiant and outspoken, and powerful while being a servant’s son, and that’s a crime of it’s own in their eyes. Is wei wuxian’s slightly arrogant? Yes. Is he wrong to be? No, he is very powerful and is aware of what he is capable of. Is that a reason to hate him enough to want to kill him? No! wth

He laid the curse on Jin Zixun. He didn’t. Su she did. Jin Guangshan and Guangyo were aware of that, and still sent zixun to ambush wei ying anyway.

None of their accusation hold any weight to them. Admittedly, we know that because we read the book and these characters aren’t exactly able to do that. The only people here who know about it are Jin Guangshan and Jin Guangyao, who planned the whole thing in the first place. So, I am not going to paint these people as all evil. Some of the sect’s members did die. Some of these people have actually the right to be angry at what happened, though the anger is pointed in the wrong direction.

But the rest of the people are there because of the mob mentality. Because someone is guilty, someone needs to be punished. Here its 50 people and wei ying, one of their own ex members. But because they are not worth the effort, none of it needs to be investigated, to be proven. They have an available party to hold guilty, and it’s far too comfortable for them to put it on their heads rather than find the actually accountable people.

To an extent, it really does seem, by the proofs handfed to them by Jin Guangshan, the wei ying is guilty, That he actually did it. But don’t they owe to the 50 wen members who are about to be slaughtered like cattle, for no other reason than being associated with Wen sect and Wei wuxian, for atleast one of them to look a bit harder, to try a bit harder? I would say so. Wei ying would too. I don’t think the other sects would agree with us, but it’s ancient china society, and modern war ethics and laws aren’t exactly in place to prevent them from doing so.

Back to Wei ying, he gets shot at by a disciple. It actually pierces him, just by luck not in a fatal place but only by a fluke. It was aimed at the heart. The intention to kill was there. He fires the arrow back, kills back the guy who tried to kill him. I don’t know exactly how anyone could hold him completely in the wrong here. We might not like it, but wei ying is not some pure white angel, nor a pacifist by any means. He is a soldier, a fighter, and he is amidst people who are literally moving to kill him by any means, and he just got an almost kill-shot. He has every right to defend himself, fight back, and honestly, kill back anyone who is trying to kill him. Eye for an eye, punch for a punch. It’s ruthlessly fair, despite sounding harsh. Honestly, it is harsh, but it’s not wrong, wither we like it or not.

He calls forth his dead, the battle begins. Lan Wangji tries to get him to stop, but it doesn’t work. There are definite tones of a sort of deliriousness. I am not exactly sure to how severe it was, but it shows he wasn’t exactly in an emotional and mental fit state. It’s definitely obvious when he tries to make his way to Yanli, and is too worked up to control the corpses crowding around, and the one standing behind Jiang Yanli. He is only able to do it when yanli asks him to stop it all so that she could tell him what she had wanted to tell him. He forces himself to calm down, and is only then able to control the corpses. (I am not saying the deliriousness was severe enough to absolve him of any responsibility he does hold in the event; I am merely acknowledging it’s presence.)

Then Jiang Yanli gets killed by the bow guy’s brother, and that when thing’s go from going downhill to just jumping right off the cliff. But unfortunately, MXTXs writing doesn’t exactly let us to be a witness to the scene, so the curtains close, and we are only allowed to make our assumptions on what happened, who/how/how many exactly died.

The point of this bloody essay is to determine the exactly how much of the event was Wei wuxian involved and responsibly for, so I can examine wei wuxian’s morality with all facts present.

If we go according to the book, wei ying:

Used some pretty grotesque methods to kill in the sunshot campaign

Allowed/ made Wen Ning kill his killers at Qiongqi Path

Accidentally killed Jin Zixuan

Kill Jin Zixun and his men after their ambush

Got in a fight on the way to the pledge conference with a group of cultivators: he broke one’s nose, kicked out his teeth, and made another fall and break his legs (not a severe injury according to lan wangji)

Fought in Bloodbath at Nightless city (after they had made the announcement, they were going ahead with the attack on the wen remnants and wen ying)

I am only including actions that me, anyone else (or the character’s) could possibly hold against him and question his morality with.

Here is where my confusion comes in. Now, I made the mistake of reading the novel only after finishing the tv show. As we know, the tv show took some liberties with the plotline and altered a few things. I honestly like a lot of the changes. Usually when tv shows make changes like that, it doesn’t always work out and it kind of depletes the essence of the story, but they actually managed it quite well. But one of the key changes were the plotlines around the Qiongqi Path accident and nightless city.

Divergences in the tv show:

At Qiongqi Path, Su she’s flute is what makes Wen Ning kill Jin Zixuan (+ Jin Zixun) rather than wei wuxian loosing control due to his emotions.

At the bloodbath, Su She playing the flute is what stopped wei wuxian from halting the battle and loose control of the fierce corpses.

(+ by the time of the battle, the wen remnants were already dead, so wei wuxian’s fight becomes more about revenge and grief rather than to protect them)

Basically, they abbreviated a lot of his action to other people. Which I understand, I guess. You are less in the character’s head while watching the tv show rather than when you are reading the book, and for the audience to develop a better and more empathetic relationship with a lead character, liberties needed to be taken to make him more sympathetic.

My debate on his morality, hence, is more focused on the book character rather the tv show (honestly, since even his only 2 serious offences are not even his fault in the show.) but in the book, they kind of are. He did kill Jin Zixuan: accidentally. He had no intention whatsoever of him doing it; not subconsciously or consciously. He was just feeling agitated and angry and viewed Jin Zixuan as a threat, and Wen Ning, who was in his fierce corpse state, interpreted as a need to kill jin Zixuan.

The only way you could put this against him is if you hold him responsible of using such an unstable and dangerous form of cultivation/magic. But he already gave an answer for that, which none of us can argue against: he didn’t have choice. He never did with demonic cultivation.

He started using it in the Burial mounds to survive and make it out.

He used it to seek justice for his sects massacre (go ahead and debate the need for that if you need to. I don’t)

He used it to fight in the Sunshot campaign, and he was a MAJOR force in the campaign, and a enormous contributor to it’s success. Could they still have won if he hadn’t been with them? Maybe, sure. But if there was any risk to loosing them, and wen sect remained undefeated, Jiang chen and yanli and wei wuxian were as good as dead. No way they or the other sects who had raised arms against wen sect would have been allowed to live or survive.

He used it to save Wen Ning and other wen remnants: war prisoners who were undergoing severe abuse and were basically being killed off. For no reason than being wens. Yes, I know it was common in ancient china to kill off the whole family. But it’s not right. Wei wuxian doesn’t think so. And neither do i.

He used it to bring back Wen Ning for Wen qing.

- I don’t know where I read it that he brought him back for protection or as a weapon. He didn’t. He was pissed at what they did to him, and brought him to allow him to tell wei ying who had kill him then allowed him to get his revenge. He than made him sentient because he had promise wen qing & the other wen members that he could bring him back. He promised his sister that he could bring her brother back. That’s why.

He used it to protect burial mounds and the wen remnants: A bunch of non-combatant members that he had grown to love and care about as family. As you can see here:

“ He turned around, knowing that it’d be a long time before he’s get to see the people he was familiar with again.

But…right now, wasn’t he on his way to seeing people he was familiar with as well?”

He used it to fight back during the ambush. He doesn’t have a gold core; He literally cant wield a sword to defend himself. So he uses it to summon corpses to fight against Jin Zixun’s men.

· He uses it to fight in the Bloodbath of Nightless City, after Jin Guangshan announced that they were going ahead with killing the rest of the wens and wei ying, and the attending crowd voiced out their excitement over the prospect.

Second, the bloodbath at nightless city. Yes, it was a very brutal battle with many casualties. But these people were planning to kill him and the wens. They had decided it by the time he spoke up. It was a definite thing that was going to happen.

Now you can argue against the use of violence, and need of it. But while I am very anti-war myself, I still hold to the belief that there are some fights that are worth fighting for, that need to be fought for. The wen remnants were innocent, and no one, NO ONE, had the right to decide they needed to die just because they were wens. They were innocent people. They had not actively killed or participated in the massacre that the main wen sect had conducted, and being blood relations to the actual guilty party is not an indication of being guilty too.

You could also argue the value of 3000 lives against 50. I have seen people do it, and write metas about. But whats the value of 1 life or 10 or 50? How are we supposed to decide who deserve to live more? How is that anyway moral?

Wei wuxian didn’t act to choose one group of lives over the other. He did it to protect himself and the people he cared about, and that meant fighting against anyone who was actively intending to kill and harm them, and was an acting threat. As human being who, like any other being, has the right to defend himself, to protect himself, to survive and be able to live. 3000 people wanting to kill him, and wens doesn’t take away his right to do that. There isn’t a rule that if enough people want you dead and murdered, rightly or not, you should just let them go ahead with it and turn your belly up. That…just doesn’t make sense?

I am in acceptance that he is a grey character, with his flaws and his merits. What I am confused about is exactly how much black and white went into making his grey. Maybe because I watched tv show and read the novel at the about same time, I feel like I am missing something. Did I miss anything? Did he do anything else? Am I wrong? What do other people think? Where do you guys lie on your judgment of wei wuxian as person and on his moral stance?

#wei wuxian #Wei ying #the untamed #mo dao zu shi #wei wuxian meta #wei ying meta #the untamed meta #mo dao zu shi meta #yiling laozu #yiling patriarch

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xiyao-feels · 3 years

Note

i've seen takes that jgy started playing turmoil before the staircase, aka wwx comments that it would take 3months for turmoil to kill nmj (ch64) so obviously jgy started playing it a long time ago, causing all of nmj's anger, all of that was his fault.

but also the novel says that jgy made a decision on the stairs or gave something up then a few days later played for nmj (ch 49) and like...idk what that could be except for killing nmj, is there something else this could be?

is wwx right? is mxtx bad at timelines? is nmj kick 3 months in the past, what is the time between 49 and 50 (when nmj dies in 2mo)

idk this whole thing is fuzzy and if you have any clarification or insight i'd like to hear it

-🦊

Fox anon! I'm glad to hear from you, and I hope you're doing well. I'm sorry I took so long to answer this—I was trying to be thorough, you all can judge whether I succeeded.

Now, I think the first thing to note here is that WWX actually and explicitly observes the Song of Clarity working when JGY is playing for NMJ before the stairs (ch 49):

Since then, Jin GuangYao would travel from Lanling to Qinghe every few days, playing Sound of Lucidity to help quell Nie MingJue rage. He tried his hardest, without speaking even a single word of complaint. Sound of Lucidity was indeed effective. Wei WuXian could clearly feel that the hostile energy within Nie MingJue was being suppressed. And, when playing the guqin, the way that the two conversed and got along even had a hint of the peace they had before they fell out. He began to think that maybe the so-called busy reestablishing the Cloud Recesses was just an excuse. Perhaps Lan XiChen simply wanted to give Nie MingJue and Jin GuangYao a chance to ease their tension.

(emphasis mine)

I think this is pretty conclusive. WWX's observations on the spot override his conclusions after a) being extensively soaked in NMJ's anger/resentment (ch 48-50) b) the entire drama afterwards at Jinlintai including being stabbed through by Jin Ling (ch 50) and c) resting and recovering for four days (ch 63).

Moreover, let's look at what WWX actually says in chapter 63:

Wei WuXian, “Jin GuangYao’s spiritual energy isn’t high. He wouldn’t have been able to take someone’s life with just seven notes. And killing him this way would’ve been too obvious. He definitely wouldn’t have chosen a song so powerful. But, if he could use the reason of playing the Song of Clarity for ChiFeng-Zun to calm his temper and continued to play it for three months, would the song be able to act as a slow poison and catalyse ChiFeng-Zun’s outburst?”

He's asking LXC questions about Turmoil, because it's new to him and he doesn't understand everything about it. I think it's pretty clear here that he's starting from how long he saw JGY play for NMJ, and asking if that would be long enough, rather than definitively stating that it would have to take three months; nor is there anything in LXC's response ("… Yes") that suggests three months is any kind of necessary minimum.

So those are the facts at hand. And imho if you look at the text in the later Empathy, there's a great deal of supporting evidence as well. There's the moment you mention, where JGY seems to be making a decision:

Nie MingJue, “Then why don’t you sacrifice yourself? Are you any nobler than them? Are you any different from them?”

Jin GuangYao stared at him. A moment later, as though he had finally either decided on something or given up on something, he replied calmly, “Yes.”

He looked up. In his expression were some of pride, some of calmness, and some of a faint insanity, “I and they, of course we are different!”

I agree with you, he's deciding to give up on NMJ—and if it's something else, what is it? If JGY isn't giving up on getting through to NMJ here, what function does this line serve in the text?

And I think it's worth noting here, as I've noted before—when JGY is talking about how different his and NMJ's positions are, he says "Your background is noble and your cultivation is high"; and the "Your background is noble" part is 你出身高贵, with the 高贵 being the "noble" part. When NMJ is asking him "Are you any nobler than them? Are you any different from them?" the "Are you any nobler than them?" is 你比他们高贵吗—so the "noble" part is, again, the same word, 高贵. Given that JGY has just spent a great deal of breath explaining that he is different from NMJ precisely because of his less-noble background, this is very much a pair of questions that might quite justifiably make JGY feel like NMJ is just completely not understanding anything he is saying here at all.

Besides that moment, there is the way he approaches or interacts with NMJ, which is quite noticeably different after the stairs. If you look at the beginning of the stairs, he's trying to convince NMJ to let the XY thing go: he says that if XY is locked up for life and can't hurt people, this isn't too different from him being executed, and then when NMJ does not accept this, points out that it's JGY's father's command and he cannot simply go against it as NMJ wishes. Once JGY loses his temper, he is still presenting arguments for his position—which granted is now approximately "you're being a hypocrite and you don't understand things", but he is still arguing for it—that is, he is still trying to reach NMJ; he is acting as though on some level he believes he can get through to him.

But in attempting to convince NMJ about XY, he is not acting like someone who expects that NMJ is right about to die; because if he were expecting that, he could simply say whatever he likes to put NMJ off, knowing that he won't actually have to pay up. Similarly, in attempting to get through to NMJ via argument, however angrily, he is not treating NMJ as purely an object to be manipulated; NMJ's beliefs matter to JGY separately (I am not saying /only/ separately) from what those beliefs lead NMJ to do. To put it another way: he cares about what NMJ thinks. This too is something that prevents JGY from simply telling NMJ whatever he wishes to hear, and this, too, is lost at the stairs.

For after the stairs, telling NMJ what he wants to hear, and just telling NMJ something that will put him off because he knows or hopes he won't have to pay up, are exactly what JGY does. When he shows up at the Unclean Realm a few days later, he tells NMJ he's here to acknowledge his mistakes and that he's realized NMJ is "doing this" for him; he promises to bring NMJ XY's head in two months, and tells NMJ he can do whatever he likes with him if JGY does not. This is a significant change in behaviour from before the stairs, and in consideration with all the other evidence it seems to me that this is because, post-stairs, he no longer values what NMJ thinks of him, and he is now gambling on his killing NMJ before NMJ kills him.

The only area where he does push back now is NMJ's treatment of NHS, I suspect because he worries about what NMJ might do or continue to do to NHS in his remaining two months of life.

So: I really do think the evidence is pretty clear that JGY starts with Turmoil after the stairs, in that it is directly signalled by the text and in that all the evidence around it backs this up.

That said, I have seen other objections raised by various anti-JGY folk, and while some of them have more merit than others I think it's worth taking the time to go over them.

-JGY couldn't possibly have prepared the Turmoil music in the few days between the stairs and him starting to play for NMJ after.

Yes, I agree; he must have had it prepared earlier. But that only means that he had it prepared, not that he was using it, and while there are certainly people who will only prepare a weapon if they are sure they will use it, I really don't think JGY is among them. He might also have prepared it as evidence for his father that he was working on solving the problem.

-WWX didn't notice a difference between the music JGY was playing before the stairs and the music he was playing after; therefore, it must be the same music.

Honestly, I think that WWX just didn't notice. It's explicitly described as very subtle, and indeed he can't tell the difference between the altered passage and the rest of the song (ch 63):

Wei WuXian withdrew the flute from his lips, “It really is this section? But I don’t find this section different at all.”

And he again observes how similar they are in chapter 64:

And he combined them so well. They sound as though there were the same. His musical talent is indeed excellent.

His repeated observation that they sound just the same suggests that he could very well have failed to notice, I think, and indeed he would have heard the altered version more often.

There is also another explanation, entirely compatible with JGY only using Turmoil after the stairs. WWX says of JGY playing Turmoil that he must have "used little spiritual power" during the Clarity sections, and "only exerted power" during the Turmoil section (ch 64). So if we think WWX would definitely have noticed the difference, there is an explanation for how he nevertheless very clearly observed NMJ's hostile energy suppressed by the music; JGY might have been using his power during the (much longer) Clarity part, and only used a very little during Turmoil. Personally, I think that it fits better with the overall emotional arc if JGY didn't change the music he was playing until after the stairs; but I accept this isn't ruled out as a possibility.

I feel obliged to note that at one point, after I was challenged on the issue of JGY changing the music after the stairs and pointed out WWX noticing NMJ's hostile energy being suppressed, as above, I was offered as an explanation for the passage that JGY couldn't possibly have abruptly switched to Turmoil right away when he started playing for NMJ, because NMJ would have noticed that he was suddenly feeling worse; and that therefore WWX clearly feeling NMJ's hostile energy being suppressed was not really evidence that JGY was playing Clarity and not Turmoil before the stairs. But I disagree with this, on two counts.

First, it is not clear to me that NMJ would in fact notice. He does not seem to be very self-aware about the effects of the sabre curse. He explicitly denies it at the stairs, for example: "I am not [in turmoil]. I know what I'm doing" (ch 49). After he burns NHS' things, when JGY asks him if he's told NHS about the sabre curse yet, NMJ asks "Why would I tell him so soon?" even though at this point he is quite clearly being affected (ch 50). And when he kicks open the door to kill JGY in chapter 50, he seems not to think about the curse at all. Of course this last is moments before he qi deviates and dies and is therefore perhaps not representative, but it fits with the general pattern; I don't believe we ever see him consider whether his anger might be because of the sabre curse, and indeed he is hardly given to questioning the righteousness of his anger in general.

Secondly, and more abstractly...WWX observing the hostile energy being suppressed—"clearly feel[ing]" it being suppressed (ch 49)—may not be /literally/ incompatible with the idea that JGY changed music after the stairs. But a story isn't just a collection of facts, and I think by far the most natural interpretation of this, in context, is that JGY is playing Clarity and not Turmoil. Which is not of course to say you can't have a resistant reading here, but I think it's generally good practice to acknowledge when your readings are resistant readings, and especially if you have a resistant reading not to say it is the only possible reading of the facts.

-JGY has no motive for playing for NMJ other than wanting him dead.

If we assume rather that he doesn't want him dead, he pretty clearly has a motive to help keep NMJ's temper under control, both on a personal level (so NMJ doesn't attack or embarrass him) and on a political level (so NMJ doesn't lose it and embarrass JGS). I would also like to note that although it was some time ago, and it seems likely that even before the stairs JGY's feelings about NMJ are not as positive as once they were, we have seen JGY go to quite heroic lengths to save NMJ's life before, when he saves him from Wen Ruohan by misdirection and assassination then drag/carries his unconscious body rather than leave him there and make good his own escape.

-The stairs and the fan burning both happen before JGY starts playing for NMJ after the stairs; NMJ wouldn't do either of those things in his right mind…

I agree; the Nie have to deal with the sabre curse. I think it's worth pointing out, too, that aside from Clarity we don't see NMJ take any measures to try to deal with the curse, either directly in addressing the curse itself, or by preventing himself from acting excessively under the influence of the curse; it shouldn't be surprising, then, that the curse can cause such drastic incidents.

-…and the sabre curse wouldn't be strong enough.

This one really confuses me as an objection, I'm going to be honest. We can be pretty sure NMJ would have qi deviated eventually, Turmoil or no. NHS says this in chapter 26:

"The sabers of our past sect leaders were all heavy with hostile energy and killing intent. Almost every single sect leader met a sudden death from a qi deviation explosion. Their irritable tempers also had a lot to do with this."

(As a side note: the missing paragraph in the ER translation right after this has I think occasionally led people to the conclusion that it is the qi deviation and such that WWX suggests is similar to demonic cultivation, as opposed to the sabres turning murderous after the deaths of their owners—you can see the Taming Wangxian and the MDZS Translation versions for the full context of the exchange.)

So NMJ was almost sure to qi deviate eventually! Moreover, he would have greatly strengthened the sabre spirit through his extensive use of Baxia during Sunshot, and after the war he continues to pursue cultivating with the sabre, without, I think, any sign of moderation. And it seems likely that he is already showing recognizable symptoms of the curse by the time JGY starts playing for him alone, as Clarity seems intended to slow the progression of the curse and also like something relatively newly introduced—they don't seem to have been doing this since Sunshot just in case, or anything. So how then could we be sure that the sabre curse on its own would be insufficient?

-NMJ wasn't at all violent before JGY started playing for him

This is simply not true. Unfortunately we don't see much of him outside of Empathy, but looking exclusively at things that happen before JGY starts playing for him:

His reputation in Sunshot is about his destroying the Wen, contrasted with LXC's which is about saving people (ch 48):

During the Sunshot Campaign, stories of praise were told about all three of the Venerated Triad. The ones of ChiFeng-Zun were about how he swept over all obstacles, leaving not even a trace of the Wen-dogs after he finished. ZeWu-Jun—Lan XiChen—however, was different from him. After the situation of the Gusu area had settled down, Lan QiRen was able to defend it with great tenacity. Thus, Lan XiChen often travelled to aid others, saving lives from danger. In all of the Sunshot Campaign, he had countless times recovered lost territory and assisted narrow escapes. This was why people were ecstatic whenever they heard his name, as though they gained a ray of hope, a powerful trump card.

The description of his reaction to seeing MY kill the Jin captain pretty strongly suggests his initial reaction was to attack MY on the spot (ch 48):

Nie MingJue saw all of the scene. Without saying a word, he unsheathed his saber by an inch. A sharp ring pierced through the air.

Hearing the familiar sound of unsheathing, Meng Yao immediately trembled. He spun around, his soul almost evaporating, “… Sect Leader Nie?”

Nie MingJue pulled all of his saber out of its sheath. The body of the sword glared brightly, yet the blade itself vaguely glinted in the red shade of blood. Wei WuXian could feel the billowing anger from him, along with emotions of disappointment and hatred.

Meng Yao knew Nie MingJue’s character more than anyone else. He dropped the sword with a clang, “Sect Leader Nie, Sect Leader Nie! Please wait, please wait! I can explain!”

Even after he's listening, he ends up grabbing MY by the collar and lifting him up (ch 48).

When he's explaining what happened with MY to LXC, he announces his intention to kill MY if he ever sees him again (ch 48), and after MY kills WRH, saving NMJ's life in doing so, and is carrying him out afterwards, he grabs his sabre from MY's hand and tries to kill MY again (ch 49). He only stops when LXC physically blocks him, and changes his mind after LXC explains that MY was in fact a spy, and I think it's worth noting that WWX believes that MY would probably have died under NMJ's attacks before LXC arrived if NMJ hadn't been heavily injured (ch 49). We're also told the brotherhood oath 3zun swear is unusually violent, in a way JGY suggests, and which LXC notably does not refute, was decided by NMJ (ch 50). Finally, while this summary of NMJ's interests is arguably from WWX's perspective, it is still notable that the only two things he's apparently interested in are "training his saberwork and killing Wen-dogs" (ch 49)—which is to say, the study of violence, and a particular and fatal application thereof.

(Totally unrelated fun fact: I was looking at the entrance to the Phoenix Mountain Hunt for this too and apparently NMJ is seventh on the young cultivators list (ch 69). The more you know!)

I want to be very clear that I am not saying that all of NMJ's violence is unreasonable or not understandable. But that it can be reasonable and understandable does not mean that it is not violent; and it is certainly not the only reaction a person could have to the events he's reacting to. Contrast LXC, as someone rather on the other end of the spectrum.

-If NMJ were violent, JGY wouldn't risk his life killing him via Turmoil (and therefore NMJ must not be violent)

Even aside from the extensive textual evidence for NMJ's violence, I don't think this holds together. As shown above, I think it's quite clear that NMJ was in fact always a violent man, but there is absolutely no question that he's violent to JGY in his last months of life, and if you think JGY started playing Turmoil for NMJ before the stairs, then it's really extremely clear that JGY was willing to risk NMJ's violence in killing him! I think the clash between JGY's desire to live and the evident risk to his life from killing NMJ with Turmoil actually supports the position I am arguing here. Assuming we are agreed that JGY is attached to his own life, and as it's clear that as NMJ approached his end he was a danger to JGY (regardless of how that end was induced!), why was JGY playing him Turmoil?

I think the stairs make it clear to JGY that his life is not safe while NMJ is still alive. Using Turmoil, therefore, becomes a gamble he is willing to take, though still an enormously risky one: on the one hand, it appeases his father and enables him to promise NMJ he can do whatever he likes with JGY if he doesn't kill XY in two months (ch 50), a promise he obviously and understandably has no intention of keeping. But on the other hand, if NMJ doesn't die within the two months, he probably will simply kill JGY—and more than that, given his focus on JGY, he may kill JGY anyway, for some much more trivial reason. Indeed, this is exactly what almost happens just before NMJ's death, when he kicks open a door and attempts to kill JGY on the spot because JGY was complaining to LXC about NMJ's treatment of him; if LXC hadn't blocked NMJ's sabre, JGY would almost certainly have died (ch 50). But as risky as this gamble is, it is still a better bet than waiting around and hoping LXC always saves him when NMJ tries to kill him—especially taking into account the risk from his father should he do so.

-The stairs incident was good for JGY and bad for NMJ, which is evidence that JGY arranged it on purpose

...I have a lot of things to say about this position. None of them are very nice. However, as I am in fact trying to argue in good faith, I will attempt to address it as an argument.

I think this comes from a confusion of the fandom reaction to the stairs with the in-universe reaction to it. To people now, yes, looking at this makes NMJ look bad, and inspires sympathy for JGY. In-universe, however—when NMJ publically assaults JGY and tries to kill him, when he calls him Meng Yao, when he shouts he's the son of a prostitute, it's not /NMJ/ who looks bad. NMJ of course is righteous in his anger; really he's only putting that boy in his place, don't you think? I knew Chifeng-zun didn't really accept him. Etcetera. It /weakens/ JGY's position, because the cultivation world does not have the same beliefs and priorities and value judgements that we do!

Certainly if he'd actually managed to kill JGY he would suddenly have found that he had killed JGS's beloved son, the only remaining son of the Jin, a war hero, his own sworn brother who had saved NMJ's life etc etc etc. But only because then there would have been political advantage in it for JGS, and quite substantial political advantage too, and he wouldn't have to deal with JGY being around anymore. As it stands, all NMJ's actions at the stairs do for JGY is tell the world that he is vulnerable and weak and disgusting. The only significant person in-world who would find JGY more sympathetic after this incident is LXC, and frankly a) he is already deeply in sympathy with JGY and b) we don't see JGY playing it up—after LXC's appearance at the stairs rather he minimizes and soothes things, and even when we overhear his complaints to LXC around two months later he is talking about what NMJ thinks of him, and not the physical danger NMJ poses.

I will also observe that while JGY does end up losing his temper, he starts off soothing even through NMJ's first attempted assault, and only loses it after NMJ calls him Meng Yao and says "your whole thing stopped working on me since a long time ago" in front of everyone; this attempted conciliation seems an odd thing to do were he in fact trying to manipulate NMJ into assaulting him, trying to kill him, embarrassing him and weakening his position in public. You could argue that NMJ would be more angered by JGY's attempts to be soothing than he would by JGY's directness, and thus the soothing could be read as provocative, but this simply isn't backed up by the text; while NMJ was obviously already angry before JGY lost his temper, he nevertheless escalates significantly after JGY talks back.

Moreover...I think what NMJ actually does and tries to do at the stairs, in terms of violence, is sometimes not fully grasped.

The first thing he does once they're properly outside is try to hit JGY, though fortunately JGY manages to dodge. When NMJ kicks him down the stairs, even aside from calling JGY the son of a prostitute, JGY ends up rolling down more than fifty steps and acquiring a head wound—/another/ head wound, because he already had one, apparently from the physical abuse he receives at Jinlintai from Madam Jin. And finally, NMJ actually /unsheathes his sabre/ and, after LXC approaches, announces his intention to kill JGY:

Lan XiChen, “Brother, sheath your saber first—your mind is in turmoil!”

Nie MingJue, “I am not. I know what I’m doing. He’s beyond hope. If these keeps on going, he’ll do the world harm for sure. The earlier he’s killed, the earlier we can relax!”

(ch 49)

When I say that NMJ almost killed JGY at the stairs, I am not just talking about kicking him down the stairs, although that certainly could have killed JGY. I am talking about drawing his sabre on JGY with the intention of killing him. JGY would very likely have died if LXC hadn't thought they were taking too long and come to see.

JGY can certainly take enormous risks when it's necessary—but for a risk like this he would have to be gaining something extremely significant, and I remain unconvinced he was gaining anything at all, let alone anything worth the cost.

-NMJ's actions at the stairs and his burning NHS' things are completely unrelated to any of his previous actions and motivations.

In fact, although they're certainly both significant escalations, I think that in both cases NMJ's motivations and actions draw extensively from preceding characterization.

Consider the stairs. The direct classism is certainly new, but there are several other elements that have already been established as part of NMJ's characterization: the tendency to violence, the investment in JGY behaving correctly even while ignoring incorrect behaviour around him, the approach to justice both in his particular and frequently-retributive idea of it and in his commitment to that idea, and a failure to understand the realities of JGY's position.

The violence I discussed above, and the failure to understand JGY's position has I think been discussed sufficiently elsewhere and besides would be a full post in its own right. As to NMJ's approach to justice, you can see both idea and commitment to it in his anger to the men speaking badly of MY (ch 48) and his appreciation and promotion of MY for his accomplishments (ch 48); his initial intention to kill MY after he catches him killing the Jin captain (ch 48), his subsequent insistence that MY turn himself in to the Jin (ch 48) and his intention to kill MY for his betrayal after MY tricks him and escapes (ch 48); his initial insistence that MY should pay for killing the Nie cultivators, even as he acknowledges that MY saved his life and says he will kill himself after he kills MY (ch 49); and of course in his insistence that WQ and WN should pay for their complicity with WRH, even in the face of LXC and JC's defense of them (ch 73). And in describing LWJ as "absolutely [unable to] stand wrongdoings, possibly even more than Nie HuaiSang’s brother" (ch 30), WWX implies a great deal about the extent of NMJ's inability to stand wrongdoings. Of course, not all of these instances involve NMJ seeking violent retribution as justice, but a significant portion do—about half—and it is certainly a recurring theme. This approach to justice, I should add, is certainly involved in attempting to punish JGY for his misdeeds by killing him, but it is also part of why he is so upset in the first place: in NMJ's view of things, holding XY in prison instead of executing him for his crimes is failing to see justice properly done.

The investment in JGY behaving correctly, even while caring less about the behaviour of other people around him doing the same, is likewise an established character note. WWX concludes that NMJ's desire to guide JGY is one of the main reasons he agrees to the brotherhood (ch 49); we see his disapproval of JGY associating with XY, who already has something of a bad reputation, at the Flower Banquet (ch 49); at the conference after WWX rescues the Wen, when JGY backs up his father's lie about what WWX said about JC, NMJ seems to mark it more heavily than JGS' initial lie (ch 73). And then, of course, there is this, from the scene just before JGY starts playing for NMJ (ch 49):

In reality, it wasn’t that Jin GuangYao could calm Nie MingJue’s anger, but that since Jin GuangYao came, all of Nie MingJue’s anger would be directed at him alone, having no time to scold others. Thus, there was nothing wrong with saying that he was Nie HuaiSang’s knight in shining armor.

While NMJ's actions at the stairs are certainly not something he'd have done without the sabre curse, and again the direct classism is new, it nevertheless very much ties in to his preexisting characterization.

What about the burning of NHS' things? Again, many elements of the situation derive from NMJ's preexisting characterization; in this case, his tendency to release his anger on physical objects, his desire for NHS to be a strong cultivator and his angry displeasure with NHS' actual interests and capabilities, and his threatening to burn NHS' things.

Although prior to the burning of NHS' things it seems to be usually a momentary lashing out, NMJ definitely has a history of releasing his anger on physical objects. When he is annoyed at the men speaking badly about MY, he knocks down (or carves up? the English is unclear) a boulder at the front of the cave (ch 48); when he decides not to kill MY after LXC explains MY was their spy, he carves a boulder in half (ch 49); and he cracks the top of a table by bringing his palm down on it in the scene just before JGY starts playing for him (ch 49).

As to NMJ's desire for his brother to focus on and do well at cultivation, and his displeasure at NHS' actual areas of focus, this is perhaps one of his most consistent beats of characterization. We see it in our introduction to NHS at the Cloud Recesses lectures (ch 13); in NHS' plea for WWX's help with the test (ch 14); in LXC's message to NHS from NMJ and NHS' reason for staying in CR instead of going to Caiyi Town (ch 16); in WWX's reminiscences about NHS after discussing the "Man-Eating Ridge" with the "know-it-all of Qinghe" (ch 21); in NMJ and LXC's discussion when NMJ brings LXC NHS' sabre during in Sunshot (ch 48); and of course in the scene just before JGY starts playing for NMJ, both in his initial anger at NHS' preoccupation with the fans and uncertainty about his sabre's location, and in his dismissal of NHS as a "good-for-nothing" even after his temper had faded (ch 49).

The threatening to burn NHS' things, on the other hand, I believe we only see once, and really in the form of "instructing NHS to burn certain specific things of his"; but it is in the very scene before JGY starts playing for NMJ, as NMJ tells NHS to burn the fans he has just been going over tenderly before JGY interrupts (ch 49).

Indeed, I think that scene in general is very much worth a look here, for what it has and for what it doesn't. On the one hand, we do see NHS' fear of NMJ—he literally falls to his knees in terror, and stutters even after getting up! But he also seems fairly comfortable after the worst of NMJ's anger passes, and when NMJ sends him off he goes not to his room as instructed, but to the living room for the gifts JGY has brought him. Yet many of the elements of NMJ's later destruction of NHS' things are present here, and to my mind one of the most important things about the scene is its illustration of what prevents NMJ from carrying out the threats he made in his anger. It's not that he's convinced he's being unreasonable—indeed, he doesn't seem to consciously change his mind at all. Instead it is simply that repeated interruptions and NHS's ridiculous appearance as he greets JGY end up draining his temper, and with his temper drained he no longer pursues punishing NHS. But this has obvious implications for what might happen if NMJ's anger did not diminish, and I think it's quite clear how the behaviour NMJ exhibits in this scene could lead to NMJ burning NHS' things simply by giving him a more sustained burst of temper, even as it is not something NHS ever expected to happen, or something that would happen had NMJ's temper not been worsened by the sabre curse.

To conclude this section—while NMJ's actions at the stairs and in burning NHS' things are certainly unprecedented in themselves, they are nevertheless solidly rooted in NMJ's preexisting characterization, and it's easy to see how the sabre curse could lead to these extreme escalations.

To conclude the post, I think the direct evidence is quite clear that JGY was playing Clarity before the stairs, and I think the indirect evidence also significantly supports it; nor am I convinced by various objections I have seen, for reasons I hope I have conveyed.

#more than one tag could contain #anger burned in his heart #we can't change places #long meta #and thank you very much to confusion-and-more for looking it over + their extremely helpful suggestions and revisions #this post would not be the same without them

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spockandawe · 3 years

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Well, this is interesting! So, in that post yesterday, there was one line that really baffled me, a thing about people brushing off a character as an asshole “because he shows literally zero growth.” I kind of set that aside because it was such a weird non-sequitur, and guessed that it was just someone’s sentences not quite keeping up with their train of thought, which has happened to me many times. Apparently I was wrong! I already spent long enough on that one post, I’m tired of talking about that, but this is new and interesting.

Okay. I kind of wanted to see if I could talk about this purely in terms of abstracts and not characters, but I don’t think it’ll work. It would be frustrating to write and confusing to read. It’s about Jiang Cheng. Right up front: This isn’t about whether or not he’s an abuser. Frankly, I don’t think it’s relevant. This also isn’t about telling people they should like him. I don't care whether anyone else likes him or not. But I do like him, and I am always fascinated by dissecting the reasons that people disagree with me. And the process of Telling Stories is my oldest hyperfixation I remember, which will become relevant in a minute.

I thought I had a good grasp on this one, you know? Jiang Cheng makes it pretty obvious why people would dislike Jiang Cheng. But then the posts I keep stumbling over were making weird points, culminating in that “literally zero growth” line.

So! What happened is that someone wrote up a post about how Jiang Cheng’s character arc isn’t an arc, it’s stagnation. It’s a pretty interesting read, and I broadly agree with the larger point! The points where I would quibble are like... the idea that it’s absolute stagnation, as opposed to very subtle shifts that still make a material difference. But still, cool! The post was also offered up as a reason why OP was uninterested in writing any more Jiang Cheng meta, which I totally get. I’m not tired of him yet, but I definitely understand why someone who isn’t a fan of his would get tired about writing about a character with a very static arc. Okay!

Now, internet forensics are hard. I desperately wish I had more information about this evolution, because I find this stuff fascinating, but I have no good way to find things said in untagged posts, reblogs, or private/external venues. But as far as I can tell, that “literally zero growth” wasn’t just a slip of the tongue, it’s become fashionable for people to say that Jiang Cheng is an abusive asshole (that it’s fucked up to like) because he doesn’t have a character arc.

Asshole? Yes. Abusive? This post still isn’t about that. This is about it being fucked up to like this character because he did bad things and had a static character arc.

At first, that point of view was still deeply confusing to me. But I think I figured out the idea at the core of it, and now I’m only baffled. I’m not super interested in confirming this directly, because the people making the most noise about this have not inspired confidence in their ability to hold a civil conversation and I’m a socially anxious binch, but I think the idea is: ‘This character did Bad Things, and then did not improve himself.’

Which is alarmingly adjacent to that old favorite standard of ‘This piece of fiction is glorifying Bad Thing.’ I haven’t seen anyone accusing mxtx of something something jiang cheng, only the people who read/watched/heard the story and became invested in the Jiang Cheng character, but things kind of add up, you know?

Like I said, I don’t want to arbitrate anyone’s right to like/dislike Jiang Cheng. That’s such a fucking waste of time. But this is fascinating to me, because it’s like..... so obviously new and sudden, with such a clear originating point. I can’t speak to the Chinese fans, obviously, but exiledrebels started translating in... what, 2017? And only now, in 2021, do people start putting forth Jiang Cheng’s flat character arc as a “reason” that he’s bad? I’m not going to argue if he pings you in the abuse place, I’m not a dick. I’m not going to argue if you just dislike his vibes. I’m just over here on my blog and in the tag enjoying myself, feel free to detour around me. But oh my god, it’s so silly to try to tell other people that they shouldn’t like him because he has a static character arc.

I want to talk about stories. I don’t know how much I’ll be able to say, because it’s impossible to make broad, sweeping statements, because there are stories about change, there are stories about lack of change, there are all kinds of media that can be used to tell stories, and standards for how stories are told and what they emphasize vary across cultures and over time. But I think that what I can say is that telling a story requires... compromise. It requires streamlining. Trying to capture all the detail of life would slow down most stories to an unbearable degree. Consider organically telling someone ‘I made a peanut butter and jelly sandwich’ versus the computer science exercise of having students describe, step by step, how to make one (spread peanut butter? but you never said you opened the lid)

Hell, I’ve got an example in mdzs itself. The largely-faceless masses of the common people. If someone asks you to think about it critically like, yes, obviously these are people, living their own lives, with their own desires, sometimes suffering and dying in the wake of the novel plot. But does the story give weight to those deaths? Or does it just gloss by? Yes, it references their suffering occasionally, but it is not the focus, and it would slow the story unbearably to give equal weight to each dead person mentioned.

Does Wei Wuxian’s massacre get given the same slow, careful consideration as Su She’s, or Jin Guangyao’s? No, because taking the time to weigh our protagonist with ‘well, this one was a mother, and her youngest son had just started walking, but now he’s going to grow up without remembering her face. that one only became an adult a few months ago, he still hasn’t been on many night-hunts yet, but he finds it so rewarding to protect the common people. oh, and this one had just gotten engaged, but don’t worry, his fiancee won’t mourn him, because she died here as well.’ And continuing on that way to some large number under 3000? No! Unless your goal is to make the reader feel bad for cheering for a morally grey hero, that would be a bad authorial decision! The book doesn’t ignore the issue, it comes up, Wei Wuxian gets called out about all the deaths he’s responsible for, but that’s not the same as them being given equal emotional weight to one (1) secondary character, and I don’t love this new thing where people are pretending that’s equivalent.

When Wei Wuxian brutally kills every person at the Wen supervisory office, are you like ‘holy shit... so many grieving families D:’ or are you somewhere between vindicated satisfaction and an ‘ooh, yikes’ wince? Odds are good you’re somewhere in the satisfaction/wince camp, because that’s what the story sets you up to feel, because the story has to emphasize its priorities (priorities vary, but ‘plot’ and ‘protagonist’ are common ones, especially for a casual novel read like this)

Now, characters. If you want to write a story with a sweeping, epic scale, or if you want to tightly constrain the number of people your story is about, I guess it’s possible to give everyone involved a meaningful character arc. Now.... is it always necessary? Is it always possible? Does it always make sense? No, of course not. If you want to do that, you have to devote real estate to it, and depending on the story you want to tell, it could very possibly be a distraction from your main point, like the idea of mxtx tenderly eulogizing every single character who dies even incidentally. Lan Qiren doesn’t get a loving examination of his feelings re: his nephews and wei wuxian and political turnover in the cultivation world because it’s not relevant, and also, because his position is pretty static until right near the end of the story. Lan Xichen is arguably one of the most static characters within the book, he seems like the same nice young between Gusu and the present, right up until... just before the end of the story.

You may see where I’m heading with this.

Like, just imagine trying to demand that every important character needs to go through a major life change before the end of your book or else it didn’t count. This just in, Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg go through multiple novels without experiencing radical shifts in who they are, stop liking them immediately. I do get that the idea is that Jiang Cheng was a ~bad person~ who didn’t change, but asdgfsd I thought we were over the handwringing over people being allowed to like ““bad”” fictional characters. The man isn’t even a canonical serial killer, he’s not my most problematic fave even within this novel.

And here is where it’s a little more relevant that I would quibble with that original post about Jiang Cheng’s arc. He’s consistently a mean girl, but he goes from stressed, sharp-edged teenager, to grief-stricken, almost-destroyed teen, to grim, cold young adult (and then detours into grim, cold, and grief-stricken until grief dulls with time). He does become an attentive uncle tho. He..... doesn’t experience a radical change in his sense of self, which... it’s...... not all that strange for an adult. And bam, then he DOES experience a radical change, but the needs of the plot dictate that it’s right near the end. And he’s not the focus of the story, baby, wangxian is. He has the last few lines of the story, which nicely communicate his changes to me, but also asdfafas we’re out of story. He was never the main character, it’s not surprising we don’t linger! The extras aren’t beholden to the needs of plot, but they’re also about whatever mxtx wanted to write, and I guess she didn’t feel like writing about Jiang Cheng ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But also. Taking a step backward. Stable characters can fill a perfectly logical place in a story. Like, look at Leia Organa. I’m not saying she has no arc, but I am saying that she’s a solid point of reference as Luke is becoming a jedi and Han is adjusting his perspective. I wouldn’t call her stagnant, the vibes are wrong, but she also isn’t miserable in her sadness swamp, the way Jiang Cheng is.

Or, hell, look at tgcf. The stagnant, frozen nature of the big bad is a central feature of the story. The bwx of now is the bwx of 800 years ago is the bwx of 1500+ years ago. This is not the place for a meta on how that was bad for those around him and for him himself, but I have Thoughts about how being defeated at the end is both a thing that hurts him and relieves him. Mei Nianqing is a sympathetic character who’s also pretty darn static. Does Ling Wen have a character arc, or do we just learn more about who she already is and what her priorities always were? I’m going to cut myself off here, but a character’s delta between the beginning of a story and the end of a story is a reasonable way to judge how interesting writing character meta is, and is a very silly metric to judge their worth, and even if I guessed at what the basic logic is, for this character, I am still baffled that it’s being put forth as a real talking point.

(also, has it jumped ship to any other characters yet? have people started applying it in other fandoms as well? please let me know if this is the case, I am wildly curious)

(no, but really, if anyone is arguing that bwx is gross specifically because he had centuries to self-reflect and didn’t fix himself, i am desperate to know)

And finally. The thing I thought was most self-evident. Did I post about this sometime recently? If a non-central character experiences a life-altering paradigm shift right near the end of the story (without it being lingered over, because non-central character), oh my god. As a fic writer? IT’S FREE REAL ESTATE. This is the most fertile possible ground. If I want to write post-canon canon-compliant material, adsgasfasd that’s where I’m going to be looking. Okay, yeah, the main couple is happy, that’s good. Who isn’t happy, and what can I do about that? Happy families are all alike, while every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way, etc.

It’s not everyone’s favorite playground, but come on, these are not uncommon feelings. And frankly, it’s starting to feel a little disingenuous when people act like fan authors pick out the most blameless angel from the cast and lavish good things upon them. I’m not the only one who goes looking for a good dumpster fire and says I Live Here Now. If I write post-canon tgcf fic, it’s very likely to focus on beef and/or leaf. I have written more than one au focusing on tianlang-jun.

And, hilariously. If the problem with Jiang Cheng. Is that he is a toxic man fictional character who failed to grow on his own, and is either unsafe or unhealthy to be around. If the problem is that he did not experience a character arc. If these people would be totally fine with other people liking him, if he improved himself as a person. And then, if authors want to put in the (free! time-consuming!) work of writing that character development themselves. You would think that they would be lauded for putting the character through healthier sorts of personal growth than he experienced in canon. Instead, I am still here writing this because first, I was bothered by these authors being named as “freaks” who are obsessed with their ‘uwu precious tsundere baby’ with a “love language of violence,” and then I was graciously informed that people hate Jiang Cheng because he experiences no character growth.

#jiang cheng #mdzs #the untamed #disk horse #long post/#abuse/#only tangentially #but better safe than sorry i hope

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