(@theyeontheskullship) what's your opinion on the glornists? 🎤

I hate those creeps! Especially their leader!

Why? Because I know he's not the loyal servant of Lord Hater he pretends to be. Dunno exactly what he's up to but, well...

I have never seen him gaze at Lord Hater in admiration. Which is how you'd, y'know, expect him to act when the Glornists claim him as their messiah or whatever their weird deal is.

No, that's how you appraise a specimen! And that's why I've got a hunch that he'd rather dismantle than bow down to him...

How to start Discourse TM about Octavian:

Discuss.

This struck me at like 2am so I apologize if it comes off as rude? But hear me out.

This stupid chart is a gross oversimplification ofc, but at its most basic this captures the issue regarding Octavian’s characterization / how the fandom perceives and understands him: his ambiguous motivations.

Octavian fans, as far as I’ve seen, tend to write redemption AUs and characterize Octavian as a misunderstood victim -- which isn’t to say that they excuse his crimes or anything like that! There’s actually a really good understanding of “this kid did horrific things but there’s more to it than that and he deserved better” among them tbh.

The thing is, most Octavian fans (box II / top right if you’re following) are from Heroes of Olympus and may not have read Trials of Apollo. They know, from their reading, that Gaea influenced Octavian somehow, but not about the Triumvirate. They also probably read into Will Solace’s “anemic” comment / other “unhealthy” descriptors of Octavian and think his death was a complete failure on Riordan’s part like what the fuck. What I’m getting at is that if you’re sympathetic to Octavian, want to be able to explain why he does what he does, and hear that Gaea -- the big bad of the series -- is messing with his head? You’re going to put a lot of weight on that manipulation. It colors your entire understanding of his character.

Octavian haters, which I’ll admit make up the dominant chunk of the Riordanverse fandom, are box IV / bottom right. They also largely come from Heroes of Olympus and may or may not have read Trials of Apollo. More importantly, they don’t care. These are folks who read Heroes of Olympus and didn’t stop to think about Octavian or his motives. These are people who missed or didn’t bother to think about the mention of Gaea’s involvement. As a result, they obviously don’t see how he was pushed into what he did and so they blame it all on him. To them, there is no rational reason Octavian acted like he did. He’s just “crazy” and a jerk.

(I’m also gonna say it: The most insistent Octavian haters are Percy stans / Camp Half-Blood 4 Lyfe types who think everything that isn’t Percy Jackson and the Olympians is meh at best, people who read Trials of Apollo for Percabeth content and then get big mad because they were “cheated”, people who still get upset about the pillow pet in 2020. I bring this up because even if you don’t know that Octavian was influenced by Gaea or the Triumvirate, you could conceivably find a motive by understanding Camp Jupiter / the entire idea behind New Rome -- but the graeci don’t spend any time thinking about New Rome ever. Riordan himself is notoriously shallow about Camp Jupiter and the whole series is framed as anti-Roman tbh. That’s its own discussion.)

Box III / bottom left is a wild card because I’m pretty sure I’m like,,,the only person in that box. Basically, what I got from my reading of Octavian in Heroes of Olympus was “oh wow this kid walked straight out of Rome, c. 27 BC” and “omgs, he’s Augustus II”. Trials of Apollo only confirmed that interpretation more for me. The main cause of his strife with everyone around him is that he’s trying to act like a full blown ancient Roman in a modern, mini Rome. Almost everything held against him is literally nothing when you come at it from a Roman mindset. Anyway, I hear you saying, “That’s all well and good, but box III says he WASN’T influenced by Gaea! Isn’t it canon that he was?” Truthfully? I really don’t think Gaea had all that much to do with Octavian’s actions. Maybe a nudge here or there, but nothing that would remove his agency as a rational actor in what he did. Why? Because we only ever -- and I mean ever, Trials of Apollo included -- hear that Octavian was influenced by Gaea from extremely biased speakers who admit they don’t know what happened, namely Apollo himself. Apollo, whose ego is so big he would never admit to being played by a teenager. Hell, this should get its own post one day. Moving on.

Box I / top left is really the most rational place to be. It isn’t very popular because it’s just,,,complicated. It allows for sympathy and understanding, which the Octavian haters can’t or won’t consider. It allows for blame and agency, which many Octavian fans prefer to avoid. All in all? It’s likely that the Triumvirate (which is honestly just shorthand for Extreme Romanness) played a role in Octavian’s worldview and therefore his motives. It’s also likely, if you take the text at face value, that Gaea pushed Octavian over the edge to divide the camps. If all of that is true, he’s a complex person who got dealt a bad hand but still played dirty with it.

Now, before I shut up, I want to make clear that I’m not actually trying to start shit. All interpretations of Octavian are wonderful and valid! He’s a very badly-developed character on Riordan’s part and that means you can hc almost anything. (That’s why there are so many readings of him in the first place, and there’s nothing we can do about it.) Also, I know that a lot of Octavian fans project / see him as a comfort / coping character, and I did not mean to demean that or otherwise upset y’all with this post. <3 I just wanted to share an observation as to why Octavian, as b-plot villain as he is, is such a divisive character in the fandom.