#Also. Another thing to understand novel!jc is to remember that he grows up with novel!wwx who doesn't like when people - in particular men- | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

crossdressingdeath · 3 years

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to continue off of the anon talking about jc stans downplaying jc’s canon homophobia, i wonder if it’s partly because they view the homophobia present in the plot and in character behavior as a flaw of the novel rather than an integral part of the romantic conflict and character motivation

like, i’ve seen plenty of takes in this fandom around the idea that cql is ‘better’ because its world exists without homophobia (which they never acknowledge is because of censorship 😬). i’ve even seen people pass around edited versions of the translation “without the homophobia” as if removing those scenes doesn’t actually affect anything at all in the story and in our understanding of the characters.

i don’t think all jc stans or only jc stans have this take but law of large numbers there is definitely some overlap and i really think these attitudes contribute to each other. a person already predisposed to ignore the flaws of jc also gets it into their head that his homophobia isn’t even his flaw but the author’s. just another instance of horrible mxtx showing her biases :///. then they absorb this weird idea that jc’s flaws are actually a result of bias from the author and that jc himself (as if he is anything more than a literal construct made by the person they are determined to dislike) is a victim of her just truly awful thoughts :////////

Yes! It’s a big problem, where people fail to realise that a work containing something is not the same as that work supporting something. Personally I suspect that with MDZS in particular the issue is that the people making this argument have come to the conclusion that JC is the “hero” and so always right and correct; if JC is always Right And Just in the narrative and JC is homophobic, clearly we’re supposed to conclude that homophobia is Right And Just! This is, of course, incredibly stupid, but here we are. And as you say alternately they’ve decided that JC’s homophobia isn’t his flaw, it’s the author’s, because there’s no way an author could give a character a belief they don’t share or anything. There are of course other explanations for why people would hate the canon gay couple and stan the only openly, violently homophobic character who doesn’t learn better by the end of the novel while calling him their “homophobic gay king” and insisting he’s the only good gay rep, but... well, let’s not get into that.

With CQL in particular it’s... almost funny, because the subtext makes it very clear that unlike in the novel (where LWJ is punished for, y’know, treason) CQL’s LWJ is beaten for... having feelings for WWX. Meaning homophobia is in fact real and present in CQL’s universe. In fact it’s more present, even with the removal of all textual gay content meaning that all textual homophobia is also cut; remember that the Lan sect canonically isn’t homophobic, or at least is not-homophobic enough to take zero issue with their heir marrying a man beyond “Wangji why that one”. Meanwhile in CQL they’re straight-up beating him for it! And yet CQL has no homophobia in its setting? What, because it changes it so that JGY just accused MXY of harassing QS instead of going for the triple whammy of harassing his married half-brother? Because JC doesn’t outright call WWX disgusting for hugging a man? That is not how it works. Cutting the gay from everything except subtext is not the same as the setting not being homophobic!

People really do fail to realise that... the antagonists being homophobic or using homophobia to achieve their ends isn’t the same as saying that that’s a good thing? Yes, the MDZS universe contains homophobia, and it’s fine to not really enjoy a work that contains homophobia at all. But it never appears as a lasting trait in characters we’re supposed to root for, and when it appears at all in those characters it going away is an important part of their development. See JL; him going from being disgusted by WWX’s flirting with LWJ to demanding that if WWX is going to be Like That he should at least stay loyal to LWJ to just grumbling a bit over seeing his uncle being lovey-dovey is basically giving us a clear metric for his growth as a character! Honestly I’d take a work where homophobia exists in the setting but it’s clearly set up as a negative trait that only shows up in the heroes as something they need to grow out of over a work where homophobia supposedly doesn’t exist but people still seem weirded out or disgusted by gay relationships any day.

#mdzs #cql negativity #anon #asks

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agendratum · 3 years

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hey @tootiredtoosadtooangry i tried to answer your 6 weeks old ask, but as i saved it as a draft to check the formatting and all that, it just fucking disappeared, cause tumblr is a website. it may magically come back later, but idk if it will happen. good thing is that i saved the text of that ask separately, cause i’m a genius and i wasn’t gonna lose this essay *wink wink* to this fucking website

ok, so it's been 6 weeks

it's basically 5-7 business days, right?

so 6 weeks ago i made a gif, and under that gif i said that i might write an essay about some things (wei wuxian), but then some other things happened (word of honor) and i kinda got distracted. but now i have my glass of whatever this alcohol that i'm drinking is, and i think i'm ready to talk a bit about our depressed necromancer who in that gif just came back to life. mostly about:

1. the specific flashback he's having in that moment, the one about seeing lan wangji for the first time

2. the general concept of being back to life 16 years later and getting using to that new world around him

so, first of all, what i find really interesting, is that upon seeing sizhui's clothing pattern, wei wuxian remembers, of course, lan wangji. but the thing is, being just back to life, his last memory from being alive is him falling down the cliff with lan wangji's face fading while the distance grows. that is not what he remembers. his memory goes back to the very first moment they met, the moment before literally anything happened, including all the things that went wrong.

because think about it. even tho i'm going here by the live-action canon, if we go back just a little bit to the novel canon, wei wuxian doesn't actually remember lan wangji fighting by his side in that final battle. when he comes back to life, he believes that he's remembered as the terrible yiling laozu by everybody. and that includes lan wangji. by the end of wei wuxian life he became everything that lan wangji warned him about, and everything he said he wouldn't become. so he believes that if lan wangji would find out that he's back to life, it wouldn't make him happy (oh how wrong he is)

when wei wuxian sees lan sect juniors for the first time, there seems to be a bit of hope - "is *he* also here?" but later we find out, that he doesn't actually want lwj to be here, cause he thinks that their meeting will not look like a friendly reunion (it will look like a very romantic reunion, but that happens later). and i think that when he has that small flashback to their very first meetings, the sadness that overcomes him is caused by the realization of that enormous gap between them when they just met and them after all the terrible things that happened. wei wuxian wants to see his old friend, a person who once at least tried to believe in him, who is also still alive, which can't be said about a lot of people he knew, but there is this huge barrier that he believes cannot be crossed. and he crossed that point of no return himself in his previous life, and he is now undeserving of lan wangji's trust and friendship.

and that's of course isn't true. but there is a difference between what we know, what lan wangji thinks and what wei wuxian believes and remembers.

there is no smooth transition i can think of to get to the second point, so here we are. 16 years. 16 years is a lot. it's a whole fucking life. a human can be almost fully formed in that time period (which is perfectly represented by both fully grown up sizhui and jin ling, who, when wwx died, was a one month old baby) in 16 years a lot can happen to a person. a person can grow to change their whole world view, their believe system, some of their principles, become comfortable with their identity and finally figure out what they want from life. a person can grow from a child to an adult, who's carefully and patiently initiating a plan they've been cultivating for years, while playing a role and hiding their true face from everybody. a person can take their enormous grief, their rage, their pain and direct it all towards achieving their goals, actually fulfilling the impossible, while managing to raise a child and not completely ruin them from the inside, but actually letting the child know that he's loved and safe.

and then wei wuxian who died 16 years ago before any of that happened, comes back to this world full of people he used to once know. but he doesn't anymore. and we can see it in everything, from little details to big very important conversations. the most obvious is him trying to play and flirt with lan wangji the ways he used to when they were teens, and being so confused by lwj's reaction. because lwj grew past that so long ago, while wwx just didn't have a chance to get this out of his system. that part is him getting to know lwj again, from the beginning, because he meets a new man. but at least with lwj, wwx is willing to get to know him and lwj is willing to let him do that.

then there is jiang cheng. there was always a certain level of misunderstanding between yunmeng bros, but at the same time, wei wuxian used to know jiang cheng pretty well. when jiang cheng was upset or something was going wrong home, with his parents, wwx mostly knew what to do or what to say or how to distract him and make light of the situation. he used to be able to look jiang cheng in the eyes and lie, and jiang cheng would believe that. and when wei wuxian comes back, he thinks it's the same jiang cheng. but the thing is, it's not. jiang cheng grew in not the most healthy ways, but he still grew up. there are so many moments, where instead of making the light of the situation, wei wuxian's actions escalate it. it's both jc just being a new person and wwx not knowing anymore how to act around him. the most important scenes showcasing that are lotus pier fight and the conversation in the temple.

there is also nhs, who's fooling everybody around him easily because he always did. even if it was just about school work. but isn't it fucking sad, that he's fooling even he's best friend. wwx isn't really surprised in the end, of course, when we find out that nhs has been behind all these deeds, but still he doesn't really suspect him. like at all, if i recall correctly? and they used to be on the same page of fooling everybody to think that these two boys are just some lazy fools. they're clearly not on the same page anymore.

wwx comes back to the world full of people who look like people he used to know or remind him of people he used to know, but they aren't them. meanwhile he didn't have the time to grow or change or just have some peace. wherever he's been while being dead, he was just out of it. his path of growing and figuring himself out stars with him coming back. but he's years behind. and with someone like lan wangji, we know that he's willing wait and he gives him space and he gives him love and home and warmth. but then, for example, jiang cheng's frustration is visible in the air, because he had years to overthink everything went wrong again and again, and wei wuxian comes back and it seems like he just want to ignore and leave "the past in the past" and it's infuriating for someone who couldn't let go of it all for 16 years. but it's understandable for someone who just came back and now the weight of everything they did multiplied by 16 years is suddenly being thrown at them.

and he has to get to know all these people from the beggining, if they will be willing to get to know each other at all. and the growth, that getting to know himself, it's a journey he has to take on his own. that's why i'm such a big fan of that trip he takes in the end by the way. but still it's a trip he takes alone, and there are still huge chunks of life he missed. and he will never get them back. he missed all those years when sizhui and jin ling were growing up. and it will always be there. they will be sharing their childhood stories with him, and the lack of wwx in their lives will be so obvious. he will continue to learn new things about lwj, about his old friends, about the world, because it's been so long, and it will be noticeable that he was not there.

i would say that all the characters of their generation (that survived) are lonely in their own way. but for wei wuxian it's the loneliness of being dead and just completely not present on the lives of his loved ones.

i don't know where i'm going with it now, so i think i will just stop here and maybe come back to you 6 weeks later with another terribly messy emotional take influenced by me drinking alcohol.

#cql #wwx #is it meta for me to mumble?#meta

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sleepymarmot · 4 years

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Re-liveblog: eps. 4 & 10

Here's something I've been planning to do for a while -- rereading the liveblog of The Untamed I wrote a couple of months ago and looking at my own initial reactions to Jin Guangyao's storyline with new eyes. Returning to old liveblogs is always fun, but particularly when the perspective on something changes so much by the end of the story!

Of course, this turned into a monstrosity with word count in thousands that sat in my drafts for about a month, and involved rewatching most of the scenes the liveblog mentioned, and some that it didn't. Please be warned: this series of posts is not meant to be a comprehensive analysis, and will jump from one point to another or highlight only the things I have changed my mind about, or haven’t talked on this blog before. It is going to include some very personal interpretations and opinions, sometimes possibly (or definitely, in the case of this very post) unpopular or negative. I am here to reflect on my own experience of watching the show almost as much as to write meta about the show itself.

[All re-liveblog posts]

[ep 4]

is this shy illegitimate son the same person who summoned WWX in the first episode, or are they two entirely unrelated bastards? I don’t think the ages match up…

Oh, so that's what I was thinking during Meng Yao's introduction scene: trying to figure out whether he was the same person as Mo Xuanyu or not. That's funny.

[negativity ahead!]

Of course, I was also admiring Xichen's elegant way of Using His Privilege For Good, but I thought that was self-explanatory enough not to put in the liveblog. It didn’t occur to me this scene could be interpreted as a sect leader openly hitting on a disadvantaged youth, or that such an interpretation would be popular, especially in a literal and positive way as opposed to a dark or subversive headcanon. So even if this is ever confirmed to be an intended message of the scene, I’d just say “I recognize the council has made a decision...” and continue to disregard it. Kind of incredible how it manages to squick me in at least five ways -- and xiayo is one of my main ships in this fandom! And not only squick -- in my eyes, sexualizing LXC’s intentions in this scene not only adds something that I don’t like, but actively detracts from the textual, surface meaning and narrative function of LXC’s actions (establishing LXC as a Model Authority Figure who masterfully manipulates the social power dynamics not for self-interest, but for justice, kindness, and peaceful conflict resolution; see also the following scene with the Wens). And from the other side, I think Meng Yao is shocked and impressed specifically because someone like LXC would do this for someone like him without an ulterior motive; I suspect that if he saw this as LXC making an excuse to touch someone attractive, he would only be turned off: a sect leader who can’t keep his hands to himself is nothing new and nothing good from the point of view of JGS’s illegitimate child.

But if this brief brushing of hands holds any in-universe significance in addition to a possible foreshadowing of this relationship’s future importance -- I think I just finally realized what it must be! This interaction is an adaptation of the following scene from the book (which, to be fair, happens when MY and LXC already know each other, not during a first meeting):

Meng Yao had been a famous joke for a certain period of time, which was why a few recognized him. Likely thinking that the son of a prostitute perhaps also carried some unclean things with him, the cultivators didn’t drink from the cups that he had presented with both hands. Instead, they put the cups to the side and even took out white handkerchiefs. As though it felt too uncomfortable, they repeatedly wiped the fingers that they’d touched the teacup with, either intentionally or not. Nie MingJue wasn’t someone mindful to such things. Wei WuXian, though, caught sight of this through the corners of his eyes. Meng Yao acted as if he didn’t see anything, his smile unfaltering as he continued to pass around tea.

As Lan XiChen accepted his cup, he looked up at him and smiled, “Thank you.”

He drank a sip of the tea immediately afterward. Only then did he continue to converse with Nie MingJue. A few cultivators began to feel uneasy as they saw the scene.

(Chapter 48)

So CQL!Meng Yao’s eyebrows twitch in pleased surprise because the sect leader not only personally approached to verbally support him, but took something directly from his hands, not even trying to avoid him or flinching at skin contact. As if it didn’t even occur to the majestic Zewu-jun to think of Meng Yao as dirty or disgusting.

I don’t know if this is an intended interpretation either, because I don’t remember anyone specifically avoiding physical contact with MY in the show, and on the contrary, there were examples of both friendly (from Huaisang) and unfriendly (from the commander) touch. But I certainly prefer it to the other interpretation, and ignoring the interaction altogether seems a bit intellectually dishonest.

[/negativity]

On another note, much is said about JGY’s performativity, but check out LXC’s! Someone’s being bullied in his classroom? Not on his watch! Time to descend from his pedestal like truth coming out of her well, Very Pointedly and at length explain how this person Has His Official And Personal Approval And Is Very Welcome Here, then take the gift from him personally instead of letting a disciple do that. Note how in the following scene, he also personally accepts the gift from Wen Qing as a peacemaking gesture. I love how LXC’s character establishing event is about defusing not one but two uncomfortable situations in a row. Of the two brothers, all social skills went to him...

I have no comment on the goodbye scene. Just sadness.

Oh wait, after rewatching the entire show and coming back to the post, I do have something to say. This episode is the only time I can say with all certainty that all of Meng Yao’s words and reactions are fully sincere. After this point in the timeline, it will never happen again. :(

It’s a shame that the gifs I’ve seen of this scene end with the iconic stopped bow, because the final shots are also great! As soon as MY turns away, his face becomes clouded again, and seconds after the Sect Leader himself held his arms and assured they were peers, he felt the need to bow and lower his eyes as some unnamed disciples walked by. And the bitter look he sends after them tells the viewer how much he is aware of falling from the dreamland where a nobleman would compliment him like three times within three minutes, back to the regular life where it is better not to be noticed at all. Meanwhile, Xichen looks him in the back like “I want it to grow strong and healthy, I want to tell my friends and neighbors about it”.

[ep 10]

Alright, when 10 minutes ago I thought “Meng Yao, sweetie, kill that clown”, this is not what I had in mind

SOMEBODY GIVE MENG YAO A HUG (after some emergency medical care) HE HAS DONE NOTHING WRONG IN HIS LIFE. Can Xichen adopt him now?

Ah, the joys of the first viewing.

At this point, I was thinking of both Lan Xichen and Nie Mingjue exclusively as of father figures for Meng Yao. For LXC I think I slowly started to notice the romantic tension later but made a complete flip to the romantic interpretation only during the "late light talks... no sign of curse on his body" conversation. For NMJ it was during the head flashback. And as much as I like these pairings, it does feel like a loss that their existence displaces the very different pseudo-family dynamic. I think a story in which NMJ, LXC, WRH and JGS are all openly presented as competing father figures would be interesting; has anyone written that?

On rewatch, I was outraged by all of the blatant manipulation that I bought completely on the first viewing. MY is very good at playing a wounded bird -- especially when he's literally wounded. I had wondered why he just limped away without treating it, but now it's obvious he is using Stoic Suffering to invoke pity and admiration. Just like, a few minutes earlier, he showed NMJ that he was ready to be struck down, and it saved his life. He tells NHS with a sad but brave face “I won't be able to take care of you anymore” and on first viewing it worked on me just as he intended -- I thought “Poor boy, so trained to serve, he puts his duty to others above his own feelings even in this situation”. Ha...

And NMJ is only helping his case. He had the chance to explain everything and share the truth of MY's actions. And in the novel, he does take this chance, retelling the incident to Xichen (who chooses to turn a blind eye). Instead, NMJ basically confirms MY’s narrative: by hiding the reason for the exile, he makes it seem like there was no respectable reason at all. NMJ, all by himself, makes himself look like an irrational tyrant, and MY like a victim of an arbitrariness. And he does it in front of Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian, no less -- an heir to a major clan and his brother! By trying not to discuss internal problems with outsiders, he achieves an opposite effect. Luckily for him, JC and WWX don't give a shit... But imagine how different the plot would be if they had this information from the start?

What I still don't understand is -- what was Meng Yao’s plan in this episode? Who was he working for? Who was his accomplice, whose feet we saw in the later flasback -- surely not Xue Yang himself, he’s supposed to be under arrest! Was he working with the Jin secretly already? (I don’t think so: in a later scene, JGS asks him about this incident, seemingly ignorant.) Or with the Wen (I don't remember -- did Xue Yang go back to the Wen afterwards)? Or just with Xue Yang directly, setting him completely free just on the promise of future cooperation? This seems most plausible -- but to risk and lose everything over such an uncertain gamble doesn’t make MY look very smart.

I have some other things to say about the events of this episode, but they’ll be in the post about the flashbacks in episode 41.

#the untamed #jin guangyao #lan xichen #nie mingjue #blah blah blah #jgyreliveblog #starting with a risky one likely to alienate most of potential readers

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