So the theme is: Andy Samberg looking beautiful at weddings...

how do you see an AU where Joanna survives and her relationships with her children?

been thinking about this ask whilst eating spaghetti

I think it's a mess with all three. first of all, supposing Joanna survives Tyrion's birth, she also survives to seal the deal with the Princess of Dorne in sending one of the twins off to Sunspear to be betrothed.

and whilst I kind of like 'jam growing up in Dorne' aus, I do think it would most likely be Cersei who gets shipped off. that's namely because in taking Cersei, the PoD reserves Elia for marriage to Rhaegar (I'm sure she was biding her time for that), and in the same fell swoop removes Cersei as her competition (Cers would probably have ranked quite highly before Tywin and Aerys' falling out).

obvs Joanna would be conscious of that calculation on the PoD's part, but 1) she may not necessarily have had the same ambitions for Cersei as Tywin did, and 2) at this particular point Joanna probably needs the betrothal of one of her children to a Martell more than PoD does; she wants the twins separated, but they're still very young at this stage so she would want them in safe hands - and she was once close to the PoD, possibly saw her as an elder sister/mentor figure of her own. so a Martell betrothal is the safest way she can do this, and Cersei would be the one the PoD would offer to take I reckon

so Cersei is forced out of her home at a young age, and I think that could be pretty interesting in terms of Tywin and Joanna's marriage for one thing. like, I assume Tywin would resent two women going behind his back to betrothe his daughter when he expressly had plans to give her to Rhaegar. is he able to put a stop to it?? I think Joanna would insist on it, but that would cause a bit of a rift because Joanna isn't explaining WHY and maybe it's the first time he feels she's crossed a line in her role as his wife.

I ALSO think that if Joanna were to survive Tyrion's birth, some part of Tywin would blame his son's disability on Joanna. in killing Jo, Tyrion martyrs her, but if she survived then it's like she's somehow responsible in Tywin's fucked up mind. bc I don't think he could fathom having had anything to do with his son's conception himself if the son wasn't what he'd wanted. so generally yes I see their relationship being worse and probably more distant with fewer visits from KL.

ANYWAY I digress but thinking about where this situ leaves Joanna and her relationship w her kids!!

JAIME starting with Jaime cos I think this would, relatively speaking, be the most straightforward. I think of the Lannister siblings, all the key Lannisters generally find Jaime the easiest to love and I don't think Joanna would be an exception. I think she's absolutely the kind of mother who would love her sons better, because as a woman she doesn't take such a complicated and visceral view of them as she does her daughter.

HOWEVER she would of course recall what happened between Jaime and Cersei. and I think she would low-key blame Cersei. I think Cersei, whilst charming in her own way, was no doubt a kid who could be angry and sour and difficult to handle, whilst Jaime sounds comparably quite affable and easygoing. so the first fucked up thing Cersei and Joanna's relationship is that Jo decides Cersei is the one who came up with the 'game' so that she can mentally forgive Jaime, because it's easier than reckoning with her son being less than perfect.

and I think the result with Jaime is that he resents Joanna deeply for sending Cersei away, and he dislikes that she keeps trying to acquit him of what they were both doing, and consequently distances himself from her. I imagine them as close before that, so this hits Joanna hard and she turns that resentment on Cers, again making their relationship worse.

possibly the relationship between them heals a little as Jaime grows matures and maybe realises how upset Joanna must have been at the time, but I think he is always angry for what she did to Cersei and doesn't forgive her that.

CERSEI I imagine Cersei stays in Dorne till she's maybe 12-13, and then maybe is made lady in waiting to Elia in King's Landing. and I think she spends the whole time hating Joanna. like I kind of doubt that Oberyn and Cersei would like each other much, and Cersei would always remember she was supposed to be Rhaegar's Queen, and Dorne sucks etc and where's Jaime, and also just like imagine how traumatic to be seven and sent away to some strange place for doing something you didn't even really understand was wrong. of course she'd hate Joanna

I think she only comes home to the Rock intermittently from Dorne, and Joanna is subtly antagonistic to her every time in case Cersei 'corrupts' her son again + Cersei is probably antagonistic in return because Joanna is the one who ruined everything, so it's all fucked. Joanna probably still tries to temper her daughter into the lady she thinks she should be, and Cersei is just not having it. it's awful

TYRION I feel like there's two Schools of Thought (lmao) on how Joanna and Tyrion's relationship would be: one where Joanna dislikes her son but is just more tactful about it than Tywin, and one where they're actually close and Joanna fancies him a bit of a mini-me.

I think it could be BOTH. I think Joanna, who no doubt cares a great deal about her public image and is still v much a Lannister who somehow had it in her to love a man like Tywin (to whatever degree she did), would be disturbed at having birthed a disabled child and would never quite shake that. it would haunt her forever.

BUT Tyrion is smart and funny and desperately wants to love her and be loved by her, and I think she would respond to that with a love of her own. I think she'd try to raise him up beyond what everyone else thought of him, and there'd be a lot of whispering in one another's ears. but she can't raise him up beyond what she, deep down, thinks of him, and that's a bitter truth in their relationship all Tyrion's life. I think she punishes him more harshly than she would Jaime, and is less willing to tolerate any shortcoming in Tyrion - he has to be better in every sense he can be. so there are darker periods in their relationship with Joanna is crueler to Tyrion, and it utterly fucks with his head because he knows how warm she can be when she chooses to be and he doesn't know how to win her love back, it's just like one day she warms again and things are nice once more but he always fears her turning cold again

and I think a big part of this is Tywin blaming Joanna for Tyrion - I think she'd find that hideously unfair, but perhaps also believe it a little.

ANYWAY long post and this is a huge amount of conjecture but long story short I think Joanna is fucked too

when cersei says, "she had a warrior heart, but the gods in their blind malice had given her the feeble body of a woman"

i actually felt it. no not the way she does ofc since she is essentially an antagonistic character but more like, the comparisons she makes the way she hates her own sex and wants power how she assumes herself as tywins daughter and how jaime thinks she call herself tywin lannister with teats, all point to her major disgusting internal conflict. ofc when we later see walk of shame it was worse the comments thrown on her body. in first books when we never had her pov i thought she too would admire herself her beauty, however cersei, in all her honestly hates her female traits and doesn't flaunt her beauty like i always thought or got idea from in first books. she is very mean and dehumanising to women and sees them inferiorly, not to say she herself was treated with a lot of hatred and sexism and then sold to marry a man she doesn't desire who himself was brutal on her, however i think she would have never been personally happy with anyone. cersei sees the entire point of being woman to please men with what she tells sansa, and then to be used as woman too . she doesn't like or meets appreciates strong women she hasn't seen or met dany obv neither would she ever have pleasant thoughts about brienne and arya even, she comments sometimes how woman is pretty but she herself always reduces her worth and others to just a girl to be sold and mounted. ofc her internal conflict i find is v interesting and confusing at times. she hates women but also wants other to accept her everything her every cruel practices even perhaps as woman. she doesn't like being woman to please people at all, yet its so sad and helpless to see her try to tempt jaime or osney even later just so they could listen to her. she hates the rampant sexism and misogyny in westeros even exhibited by her brothers and father but she doesn't realise she is using the same notion and definitions of sexism people have about women to demean and hate woman around her. its like she hates men definitely but she hates doing effort herself too to be a same female figure or woman we see other asoiaf women exhibit or do.

i was wondering if her behaviour towards women themselves, how she sees them inferior even when the men around her aren't seeing them like this, but she sees women with sexist approach too she mentions about rape or septa being or longing for rape, she ridicules and discusses margaerys virginity so much, she talks about uncensored stuff to sansa lol, when she is young girl literally, points to the fact how blunt and hateful cersei is of herself but also of female definition. i think this has a lot to do with her maybe not having to experience a mothers love??? i never liked how she was always surrounded ironically by men around her. we never see major strong female lannister representation i just realised. we only see or hear about tywin who had brutal approach to westeros the, holier-than-thou approach. we see jaime who is prob not worse like tywin at all but he also constantly tries to berate and pass quite nauseating remarks for women and ill hold this opinion about him until i see him say sorry to brienne lol (not to mention he does not hate women as whole even as being a man), we see tyrion also not really ideal partner and excessively morally grey character although i have never or maybe remember sexist or extremely insensitive remarks about women by tyrion until we see him in adwd only blurting out pretty worse sentences and maybe acting same like his father, and then we just know kevan who always well * saw cersei as not so perfect person and is kind of weird to her or idk maybe i never liked that lad because he also kind of sexualised her in childhood as cersei says maybe that men never looked at her like they do at others and she was seen with different eyes, all this time i wonder kind of where was tywin though he could have given or taught her good wholehearted valuable values anyway my anti tywin agenda not here today*, and then we see lancel, well for all we know he slept with her too but its just weird again that she slept with him to get rid of her obnoxious husband and well, lancel doesn't really hurt her though or ever saw her like her brothers do, considering his religious changes. but all this time im wondering cersei kind of missed having any wholesome woman in her life as, friend or companion which contributes to her internalised misogyny even more (its like she is opposite of catelyn hundred percent but cat also has internalised misogyny and i realised she never had loving sister cousin friend or companion) maybe im not thinking right but doesn't it click to u all that they both esp cersei of course see women in diff colours and not like how arya dany sansa brienne see women, because they lacked any stronger female character to look upto too. cats treatment of jon which is separate thing was quite questionable and so how she feels weird too when she sees mya stone! but cat or cersei never both, confronted their husbands or told them anything or even discussed any issues with them (this is for cat esp when she should have been angry over ned for jon :/ but she changed her energy to jon) . and it makes me wonder its also because they both were raised in a v male dominated society with diff kinds of fathers, uncles and brothers, that cersei especially has diff notion to what a random woman outside castle would even look like or act like and that all of them aren't really linked to their virginity or marriages and babies. i dont think ofc she would have been different if she had wholesome female friend but she did or should have had someone as girl who had her back when she was growing up???

(btw this isn't pro cersei thing at all - i was kind of horrified by her analysis of women we get to see in affc and then the melara thing at her young age was well fked up also pinching tyrion when he was baby "until he cried" or calling him "little monster" or whatever shows infact how she is quite disdainful of men like tyrion too and not just women. i was wondering maybe her losing joanna maybe played significant role only that being said, she is biggest antiparallel to dany and catelyn! )