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iiinejghafa · 4 years

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Thoughts on secret forest s2! this is quite long lol fair warning

Overall, I enjoyed this season and don’t come away disappointed by it at all because it’s clear it serves as a “part one”/lead-in to season 3 in many ways. I think it suffered from being pulled in too many directions with respect to both plot and the chronology of the show; it felt like the writer was trying to balance keeping season 1 events relevant, setting up for season 3 (which at this point is undoubtedly about Hanjo and/or the resolution of investigative rights), and creating a self-contained story, whereas season 1, while admittedly not saddled with the burden of a prior story/season or certainty of a follow-up, was conclusive and wrapped up all the major ends. I think if more of the Hanjo stuff had been saved for season 3, or their role in the Woo-Choi case was wrapped up conclusively, it would have led to a tighter, more satisfying season along with more time for character development.

THE GOOD

I LOVED Si-mok this season. It was clear how much he grew from season 1 and he continued to grow into his emotions (acknowledging Eun-soo and Chang-jun, his stress over Dong-jae’s disappearance, how he erupted at Hu-jeong, his choice to seek out Choi to save Yeo-jin, etc.) and while he didn’t undergo as much development and changes this season, his capacity to emote and care about other people as well as his unwavering aim for justice and truth was reaffirmed. His relationship with Yeo-jin was also really well done; he’s never sad or angry with her for being cold towards him, but instead understands that she’s unhappy and frustrated with her job and gives her space to navigate that while expressing that he’s noticed and cares about her. Confronting Choi the way he did and the dinner scene (which I could go on about for days) really highlighted that he consciously knows how much Yeo-jin means to him, how well he understands her, and that he’s not going to let their relationship waver. He doesn’t believe for a second that Yeo-jin is okay, and I think going into season 3 in addition to their continued friendship he’s going to make an effort to keep an eye on her and support her.

While I was frustrated at times with Yeo-jin’s development, I’m happy with how it concluded. Like Si-mok, she unwaveringly follows her morals and ethics, but this season was the first time she felt pressured to bend on the rules due to politics and connections (ex. the assemblyman’s son) and everything that happened with Choi only confirmed that she can’t - and won’t - drift on things like this again. She also takes the high road in dealing with her career; even though she’s miserable working with colleagues who hate and distrust her, and as much as she misses her old team, she knows that staying in the Intelligence Branch is the only place she can make positive changes. It was crushing to see how unhappy she was, but given that her happiness/career conflicts were a theme this season (and was noted often by Si-mok) and somewhat unresolved, I’m sure we’ll see it carry through to season 3.

Despite their development not being as consistent and satisfying as season 1, I really loved how close Si-mok and Yeo-jin were this season. As frustrating as their relationship was during episodes 4-10(ish?), barely speaking and Yeo-jin being somewhat cold towards him, I understand why it had to happen. It reinforced Yeo-jin’s inner struggle and made her choice to forgo appearances with him later on all the more meaningful, and highlighted that at the end of the day, she will always trust him and considers him her closest friend.

I appreciated that Yeo-jin having feelings for Si-mok - a recurring but subtle theme in season 1 - wasn’t dropped. It wasn’t a core element of this season, but in my opinion, the fact that it was readdressed multiple times suggests that this is something that will continue to be developed in future seasons. Choi calls her out on it twice - and Yeo-jin never denies it, just deflects - and even Woo and Kim are suspicious that something is going on. While Si-mok doesn’t have/is unaware of any feelings towards Yeo-jin - or that other people think something is up with them - I think this season showed he knows she is incredibly important to him. Not just through his scene with Choi, which came about out of certainty that Woo would ruin Yeo-jin’s life and trusting Yeo-jin’s judgment that she and Choi had a bond, but through the way he observed her and the comments he made. “You don’t draw these days?” “Didn’t you want to work in police administration?” “You weren’t the kind of person to postpone things” “Is there a chance you won’t be okay?”; all this demonstrates he is well aware that she is unhappy and struggling, and this was his way of communicating his concern to her which is something he wouldn’t have been able to do in season 1. Another reason I’m excited for season 3 is because the natural progression from this is that he learns how to actively support and comfort her (e.g., he looks distressed and as if he wants to comfort Yeo-jin when they learn about Choi Bit but doesn’t know how).

In season 1, he notices when she’s upset or negatively impacted by something but doesn’t know how to address it and in season 2, he doesn’t know how to truly comfort or speak to her about her unhappiness but is able to convey, through his comments and remarks to her, that he sees her and understands that she’s struggling.

I’m really glad Kang didn’t succumb to Hanjo’s bullshit and resigned and even went to Yeon-jae to ask that she leave Si-mok and Dong-jae alone. I’ve seen other people theorize that Kim will step in as his new mentor, which would be cool to see, but I hope he returns in some capacity.

I loved that Choi wasn’t corrupt after all, just blindsided and dragged into bullshit, and her character served as a reminder to Yeo-jin to not compromise her values even when she’s in a rough spot or under pressure. I was suspicious of her and while I guessed right that she orchestrated the cover-up, not Woo, I genuinely thought she had more malicious intent and far-spanning connections that she would use to save herself. It was really touching that she gave Woo and herself up to save Yeo-jin, all because Si-mok approached her as someone else who cares about Yeo-jin and trusted her judgment. I don’t think Choi is a “good person” necessarily, just morally gray as many of this show’s characters are, but I did have more sympathy than I expected in the end.

Dong-jae’s disappearance and case were some of the most interesting parts of the season, and I liked how the show managed to turn a character I - at best - found occasionally amusing into someone I felt a hint of pity and empathy for. I’m sure he’s still the same weasel even after nearly escaping death - I have no doubt that he covered for Yeon-jae - but I’m curious as to how his relationship with his wife and family changes after this season. I know he’s popular but I genuinely don’t find him to be a good person at all, especially for nearly killing Eun-soo in season 1, but I’d like to believe he makes genuine changes going forward even under the guise of working for Hanjo (which seems inevitable as Yeon-jae will want to keep him in check and it will allow him to stay securely in one place, allowing him to both be near and protect his family).

I’m glad the Yongsan crew returned this season and played a part throughout. I was suspicious of Jang for a while and I’m glad he had nothing to do with any of the cases (though I’m confused as hell by that random gash and his behavior in episode 14) and his friendship with Yeo-jin was really sweet to see again this season.

THE BAD

Yeo-jin’s development was frustrating to watch at times, especially her coldness towards Si-mok and how her sunny bright personality was tamped down this season, even though I understand why. With her haircut in episode 16 (as noted by Si-mok, just like when they first met in season 1) I’m guessing that she will return more to her s1-self in the next season, now that she’s more self-assured and clear on how to proceed in her career. I think the theme of her becoming more and more close-off and shouldering her burdens silently will continue, in contrast to Si-mok becoming more warm and open, but hopefully this will get worked through in the next season.

Now that we know Yeon-jae’s subplot was basically season 3 fodder, I’m frustrated by how big of a part Hanjo group played in the story without any real definitive conclusions. There are too many loose ends - what exactly does she have to do with the meeting at the vacation house? Why does she have a relationship with Woo? What is up with Mr. Park? What relationship did she have with Park Gwang-su that led to her selecting him for the Hanjo work? What is going to happen with Hanjo Group and her relationship with her father and brother? Will she act against Dong-jae if he crosses her, or Si-mok, whom she mostly neglected and ignored this season?

I really, really disliked that the council meetings ended up being pointless. I understand that this was intentional - it forced conflict between Si-mok and Yeo-jin that would have had to happen at some point, brought Choi and Woo together, and showed that there’s no clear answer to the question of investigation rights - but it was built up to be this big thing and we only got two meetings over the span of 10 episodes.

I’m glad that the Segok case was passed on to Dong-jae’s junior, but I’m also a bit annoyed by the lack of conclusion to this case. My take was that Si-mok was thanking her for her insight and trusting that she would be able to take care of it, so I doubt we’ll hear more about it.

Si-mok’s loneliness and isolation felt like a bigger theme in the earlier episodes (lying about staying in a hotel because he can’t go to his mother’s, staying in a hotel and then the dorms, etc.) but wasn’t resolved before he was reassigned. We got those messages from his mother later in the season, but it was something that was never followed through with and didn’t ultimately contribute to anything aside from perhaps emphasizing Si-mok’s dislike for uncomfortable/unnecessary social interactions. Given the way season 2 ended with him and Yeo-jin parting ways again, and his inevitable season 3 return, I’d like to believe this will get more attention in the future.

OTHER OBSERVATIONS

I saw it pointed out somewhere that Si-mok and Yeo-jin are going in opposite directions in their personal arcs; Si-mok is becoming more open and emotional, whereas Yeo-jin is starting to hide her emotions and silently shoulder burdens. This is a point I’m really excited to see explored in season 3 and what it means for their relationship. Does Si-mok, always evolving and becoming more emotionally mature, directly confront Yeo-jin at any point and express his observations and concern for her? Does he ever tell her that he spoke to Choi, or does Yeo-jin find out through her and how does she react? Does Si-mok’s elevated emotional intelligence come with the eventual realization that he may have feelings for her, in contrast to Yeo-jin hiding and deflecting her feelings for Si-mok this season perhaps out of resignation that he won’t ever feel that way about her? What conclusions do they draw from continuing to find each other again through the years, and how does that play into what they want for their own futures?

Yeo-jin comments that she and Si-mok are “always doing this”; working together, getting separated, and inadvertently coming back to each other again. Season 3 means that they will have to cross paths again in Seoul (I wonder what brings Si-mok back if not Hanjo?) and it’ll be interesting to see what they make of this pattern and if they ever consider what they want for their lives and future. We don’t know what Si-mok wants - if anything he’s perfectly content with remaining a prosecutor and being shuffled around to different assignments - but I can almost guarantee that he will start to feel pulled to stay in Seoul because of Yeo-jin. As for Yeo-jin, we know she misses her old team and being a detective - she wants to work with a team and do field work - but she’s also torn by her relationship with Si-mok and her desire to make structural changes from within even at the cost of her own happiness. Does this change at all with Si-mok’s eventual return and whatever developments occur in her career?

This is more general, but given how much was left unresolved and unaddressed I really feel like the writer knew she was getting at least season three. That and Netflix’s involvement (who generally move quickly production-wise) lead me to hope that we will get season three as early as fall 2021 or early 2022 barring any scheduling conflicts with the leads. I highly doubt Netflix will allow the production to stall another three years after the big numbers they pulled with TVN and undoubtedly on their own service as well.

UNADDRESSED THREADS:

Dong-jae, specifically how he handles Hanjo and what he chooses to do moving forward in his career and family

Hanjo’s full involvement with Park Gwang-su. Why was Woo brought along in the first place? What was the meeting about at the vacation house? What is so nefarious about Hanjo’s involvement, other than it was to discuss the lawsuits (I think)?

Yeon-jae’s battle with her father and brother

Yeo-jin’s backstory. We still know almost nothing about her life prior to this series other than the existence of a grandmother and her comment back in season 1 at the high school (watching the happy teen girls at the high school and saying “You should have been like that, too”). I would like to believe season 3 will finally deliver this lol but who knows

Si-mok’s messages with his mother.

How the investigative rights will be handled

This isn’t quite as open-ended, but Yeo-jin and her career. She got promoted but is universally disliked by her colleagues - though accepted by her new boss via her connection with Choi - and she’s at a desk job again after being shown repeatedly, since the first episode, that she misses her old job and coworkers and wants to go back into fieldwork/being a detective. Si-mok and the Yongsan crew are also attuned to her unhappiness and desire for her old life back, but again this wasn’t given a specific conclusion.

Yeo-jin’s feelings for Si-mok. This was addressed quite a few times this season without a resolution - season 3 fodder/carry over from season 1? - other than reaffirming the deep trust they have in each other and that she is a weak point for Si-mok (which Woo tries to exploit; given his connection to Yeon-jae, perhaps this will come back again).

Mr. Yoon’s appearances. This felt like the most obvious set-up in hindsight; there was no real plot or character-motivated reason for Yeo-jin to see or talk with him, but I’m not sure I understand the sudden sympathy towards his character or what this means for the future unless it somehow ties to Hanjo.

Si-mok’s headaches. He had two intense ones over the course of Dong-jae’s disappearance, but unlike season 1, there wasn’t an overarching conclusion or character development associated with that other than that he’s dealing with them better. This makes me feel that it will be addressed again in season 3, along with:

The theme of Si-mok being worried/stressed. This is brought up a lot in this season, and Si-mok repeatedly denies that he’s stressed about the Dong-jae case only to have two headaches over it. He clearly doesn’t understand what being worried/stressed means to him, and I think the only real resolution we got for this was that he was worried enough about Yeo-jin’s life being destroyed by Woo to confront Choi.

Woo is going to be indicted for what happened at the vacation house along with Choi, but one of the last things we hear from him is “This isn’t over. Not while I’m alive.” If he plays a role in season 3, I’m curious if he uses his connection to Yeon-jae to get out of things, or if Choi’s active role in covering up his death will spare him. Will he and Yeon-jae take revenge on Dong-jae and/or Si-mok & Yeo-jin?

I am VERY upset that there were no Yeo-jin drawings to Si-mok this season!!! Even after it was addressed back in episode 6!!! Season 3 better deliver!!!!

ANYWAY apologies for this word vomit and I’m sure some of my opinions will change over time but for now season 3 2021/2022???

#secret forest #secret forest 2 #stranger tvn #stranger 2

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iiinejghafa · 4 years

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bc we’re on the last two episodes of secret forest, here’s a long ass dump all my predictions/thoughts that nobody asked for!

SPOILERS FOR EPISODES 1-14

disclaimer: this is all very likely wrong lol my confidence has plummeted after i was so off the mark about dong-jae’s kidnapper LOL

also, i apologize if any of this is repetitive or if i missed/forgot/misinterpreted something as i 1) have only seen each episode once as they’ve aired and 2) have not ventured into any tags on social media beyond checking a few blogs for gifs, so i have no idea about any of the theories/ideas/commentary/etc that have been floating around.

ANYWAY

I think Choi is the mastermind behind everything, from the Park Gwang-su cover up to the false witness and note. While Woo is undoubtedly also shady and involved in Park’s murder to some degree, he’s unsubtle and emotional whereas Choi is more composed and perceptive, and she has the resources and intellect to pull off the fake note business without being caught.

I think she orchestrated the “prosecution is framing the police” scheme because the more I think about it, the less it makes sense that Kim or Woo would do something like this. It went against their own interests as prosecutors (delaying finding Dong-jae, who we now know was assaulted for reasons completely unrelated to Park Gwang-su) other than some sympathy points and, more importantly, it implies a level of certainty that Dong-jae wouldn’t be found. In other words, the culprit, who likely didn’t (confidently) know who the real kidnapper was or the likelihood of them being caught, knew that everything could get exposed as a scam, and I don’t believe Woo or Kim are dumb enough to risk sabotaging themselves so badly, especially when it was one of their own who was kidnapped. Was Choi planning on throwing one of them - maybe Kim, since she and Woo are in cahoots - under the bus by framing them in the event the culprit was caught?

In episode 14, Yeo-jin expresses to Choi that she is frustrated that she didn’t make the connection between the drowning victim’s shoes and his father’s comments about getting a job to pay for them, which may have led them to the culprit sooner. Choi says nothing but recalls a similar conversation when she spoke with him. What if she did make the connection back then?

I sadly think Detective Jang is involved with Choi/the culprit, specifically the fake note if not more than that. While I noticed his slightly off behavior throughout the season, it didn’t click for me that he could be involved until episode 14 when he has a gash on his cheek out of nowhere and his behavior with Hu-jeong (standing ominously outside his cell, looking frustrated with his replication of the note) and with the false witness (appearing disinterested but looking constantly between the chief and witness as if nervous/expectant, the camera putting him in frame often despite not speaking at all, and lingering on shots of him staring at the witness as Si-mok comes in and as he leaves the room). I think he got roped into Choi’s scheme either through her directly or via the tall aggressive ex-chief (the segok cop’s uncle idr his name lol), initially on the basis of sharing views on investigative rights and so on but then getting pulled in too deep.

While I hope this is red herring or that Jang pushed back against whoever was trying to use him/blackmail him - a sort of redemption for season 1 - the more I’ve thought about the less likely I think this is, though I believe either way he has no malicious intent.

Jang has come off as run-down, disillusioned, and even bitter (especially with respect to Yeo-jin’s new status and power) towards the system this season, which didn’t seem relevant until this most recent episode with his off-putting appearance in front of Hu-jeong’s cell and then his odd behavior in the interrogation room with his chief and the false witness.

I think he may have been blackmailed into writing the note, or at least was convinced it wasn’t a horrible thing to do/was ultimately harmless (a la season 1, with handing over the hotel footage to Kim by breaking into Yeo-jin’s laptop). In my opinion he’s a simple, straightforward guy: he’s not unintelligent by any means, but I don’t think he deeply considers the implications of what he does at times and/or is easily swayed by others if it seems to serve his best interest.

His family has been mentioned a few times this season, which is a lot for Secret Forest, so my guess is that this was abused by Choi if she dug up something compelling like an illness or complication with his new child. Also, early in the investigation he proposed the idea that Dong-jae was being dramatic/would reappear, downplaying his disappearance.

It just occurred to me that this could provide context for the note: “I washed the dishes too late.“ Did Jang identify with Dong-jae’s career-familial conflict and pull from his own experience?

Choi was looking for someone for the council that almost precisely fit Jang’s description, knowing Yeo-jin still had ties to her old department and worked with Jang. I don’t know the reasons or motive for this other than possibly his connection to Yeo-jin/Si-mok and his loyalty to the police.

I don’t think she’s careless enough to directly work with Jang, so I can see her using the tall burly ex-chief (probably also with blackmail about his nephew) and working through him. My reasoning for the ex-chief being involved is that the show made a point to establish that he and Choi know each other, not just verbally but through a flashback (which have been comparatively rare this season compared to the first), and in my opinion implies they have some sort of relationship.

I think Jang sent Mr. Yoon the package. My first thought had been Si-mok but knew it was unlikely (and I couldn’t think of a realistic, in-character reason for it), and now in hindsight Jang is really the only option that makes sense since out of the investigative team only Jang, Si-mok, and Yeo-jin returned this season.

Sticking with Choi being the culprit, I think out of desperation to avoid exposure she will use Si-mok and Yeo-jin’s relationship against them, whether it’s by threatening their careers or well-being or by framing them. She has called out Yeo-jin’s feelings for Si-mok a few times already, and others have noticed their closeness by now (even Woo and Kim, who probably had no concept of their friendship until episode 12) and know they are persistent and will pursue the Park Gwang-su case until the end.

I’m leaning towards Yeo-jin being targeted. Si-mok has been repeatedly pointed out as a problem by Woo, Choi, and Yeon-jae, and I think they will quickly realize that he won’t drop the Gwang-su case even when ordered to. It’s well-known that he has no regard for his career or well-being - e.g., he doesn’t care about getting yelled at by his superiors, isn’t career motivated, etc. - so I can see Yeo-jin being identified as a potential weak spot for him because of their relationship. It could just be her career that’s threatened, as that’s something that matters a lot to Yeo-jin and in turn would upset Si-mok, but given the precedent of Park Gwang-su’s murder/cover-up and the fake note/witness, I’m betting it will escalate to a direct threat against Yeo-jin whether it’s framing her for a crime or harming her.

This also lends itself to my Choi theory as between her, Yeon-jae, Woo, and Kim, she’s the only one who has not only perceived and called out Yeo-jin’s feelings but has repeatedly identified her relationship with Si-mok as a problem (other than Woo acknowledging it during their coffee date, but he was later confused by Yeo-jin running after Si-mok during the council meeting) and would potentially gamble on Yeo-jin being a weakness.

As an aside, the episode 15 preview shows Si-mok interrogating women who Park Gwang-su allegedly sent money to before his death, which might be a step too close to the truth for the culprit’s comfort and compel them to act.

Also, it’s worth noting that a theme with Si-mok this season is the concept of him being “stressed”/“worried” and not understanding what that emotion is to him. After his conversation with Kim where he denied being stressed he had a massive headache, had a headache at the meeting and didn’t agree with Yeo-jin that it was because he was worried about Dong-jae, and asked how someone looked when they were worried so he could look for signs in Woo. He didn’t have a big reaction on-screen to Dong-jae being found despite how stressed he was by the case and if anything the Park Gwang-su case is far more dangerous to investigate, so I think we’re in for at least one more headache and him being in a stressful/worrying situation, likely because of something happening to Yeo-jin.

Si-mok may have unintentionally foreshadowed this in episode 14 during his act with the witness when he asked if any harm would come to him if he indicted him.

I think the third man in the vacation house was someone involved with Hanjo, most likely Mr. Lee or the brother. I forget which one of them is taking the PTSD medication, but it would make sense that they are on it after being traumatized by whatever happened at the vacation house. All I can gauge from the events of the night is that Woo or one of the Lees (likely the brother as we’ve seen his face this season) poisoned Park Gwang-su in Woo’s presence and Choi covered it up to make it look like a heart attack.

Choi does directly ask Yeon-jae if someone from Hanjo was on the property, but with the confirmation of a third man I think this may have been to feel her out on how much she actually knows about that night.

I genuinely don’t know Choi’s motives other than protecting Woo (though I feel like she’ll throw him under the bus when given the chance) so I feel like there’s another reason she’s so invested.

There are other little things I hope get addressed (Dong-jae’s junior’s panicked reaction to being asked about his relationships, Choi’s daughter, Si-mok and his mother) and a lot of other scrambled thoughts leading into this finale but these are my more concrete, evidence-based conclusions lol. Regardless I’m really looking forward to seeing what happens!

#secret forest #secret forest 2 #stranger 2 #spoilers #yes this is long-winded yes this is pointless #but i wanted to articulate all this in writing and see how close i get LOL

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iiinejghafa · 4 years

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it's been a while but ive been rewatching odaat in preparation for s4 and im just still so......confused.....by the showrunners' comments that schneider/penelope wont happen

im going to accept these statements at face value just bc im too tired and bitter from being burned before to believe otherwise lol but I really question the writing decisions in the show wrt their relationship and especially in s3 where the subtext and parallels were so loud and overt, the most iconic and hard to ignore example being the speech victor's fiance gave that lined up perfectly with schneider and penelope's relationship AND occurred in the same episode that penelope broke up with mateo and schneider relapsed. WHY DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS JUST TO INSIST THEY WILL ALWAYS BE PLATONIC

At the end of the day I'll accept whatever route the showrunners take and I will always love their friendship, but I'm still baffled by these statements because if I hadn't ever read them, I would have gone into s4 predicting at least a 75% chance that they'd become canon (in some way). WRITE YOUR RELATIONSHIPS IN A PLATONICALLY IF YOU MEAN FOR THEM TO BE PLATONIC. We didn't misinterpret the writing or just mindlessly shipped them, you leaned into romantic tropes and wrote That episode with That speech and are acting like we wouldnt read between the lines 🤷‍♀️

#one day at a time #odaat #I'll write more concise thoughts later lol #alvareider #schneider x penelope

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iiinejghafa · 5 years

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PLEASE WATCH THIS SHOW PLEASE!!!!

#one day at a time #PLEASE WATCH THIS SHOW IT'S SO GOOD

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iiinejghafa · 5 years

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@opalandsunflowers I haven't seen santa clarita diet! all i know is that it's on Netflix lol do you recommend it?

#text post #replies

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iiinejghafa · 5 years

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i still love alvareider and all but it's so hard for me to just ship it in fanon bc of this and like! maybe they are lying or misdirecting on purpose which happens all the time but i just don't have the energy to care or hold out hope

if they're dead serious then im very confused why they wrote them and specifically s3 Like That and then pull the "friendship is important!!" card like uh you know good relationships are based in good friendships right and the desire for m/f friendships in media is the result of all the instalove/incompatibility/shitty relationships we see in m/f romances right???

#one day at a time #alvareider #anyway.....i need to find ships that end up canon lol my luck is rotten lately

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iiinejghafa · 5 years

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after some thought i’m more frustrated than sad by the showrunners definitively saying that penelope/schneider isn’t happening

so one of the main showrunners stated that alvareider is never happening here, i was too bummed to watch it myself but i guess she says that she wants them to stay friends and that their friendship is important. i’m not holding out hope that this is misdirection or a lie (which i know happens, like mully/sculder in x-files or jane/lisbon in the mentalist) so let’s assume this is the 100% concrete truth that won’t change over time.

and tbh? i know a lot of people will say “SEE they really are platonic yall just don’t know how to see men and women as friends!!!” but i see this more as a reflection on the writers than on the audience. it’s not always that viewers can’t view m/f relationships platonically, it’s that writers don’t know how to write m/f relationships platonically.

why draw so many parallels between schneider and penelope’s love interests? why have other characters mistake them for a couple when it does nothing to contribute to the plot or affect their dynamic? why make penelope’s Main Goal to find her great love (and self-improvement etc) and schneider’s Main Goal to find love and be loved (mainly through the Alvarezes)? why present a Penelope 2.0 who gives a speech on her fiance that is so specific and pointed and happens to line up with schneider’s relationship to penelope, have penelope break up with her boyfriend because she doesn’t care enough about them, and then have her learn about schneider’s relapse ALL IN THE SAME EPISODE? why have penelope’s therapist comment on penelope not relying on her romantic partners in emotional distress and penelope immediately admitting that she relies on schneider and then have the other support group members (even the lesbian!) joke about sleeping with him? why have schneider call penelope his “older sister” as a joke ONLY behind her back and penelope not only not returning this sentiment but actively resisting a familial label?

if they wanted any of this to seem indicative of something purely platonic, THEN SAY IT. this show is not subtle about character developments and relationships - they clearly call out and define what these relationships are - but they don’t do this with penelope and schneider. if they never intended them to be romantic, then they are sure as hell leaning on the appeal of it to the viewers and know it.

if you want to write a platonic m/f relationship, don’t give it romantic coding or subtext (even if you think it’s just fun fanservice or “inevitable” w/ m/f friendships), and especially don’t strengthen it as the show goes on instead of discrediting it. from a writing standpoint, they knew what the speech and the subsequent events of 3x11 was saying, and it’s frustrating that we’re expected to care about and be invested in an underdeveloped relationship with an underdeveloped character just because it’s romance and the actors are married IRL. the most frustrating thing is that this kind of thing is extremely common and happens all the time, where tptb overwrite their platonic relationships and phone in romantic ones, but i guess i trusted odaat a little too much and thought i could believe what i saw.

to be clear, i actually really like their friendship and had season 3 not added so much fuel to the fire i would have been fully okay with (and expecting!) that despite the parallels it would end up platonic. s3 was just too direct and pointed about certain things for this to sit well with me and it’s disappointing.

#one day at a time #alvareider #penelope x schneider #why is this LITERALLY the opposite of what happened with king of scars...2019 is a bad year for me and ships jasld;fjas #anyway yes i know that tptb lie ALL THE TIME about things like this to avoid spoilers but i'm too old and been thru this too many times to h #*to hold out hope for this tbh #i'm just particularly upset by this one bc odaat is so well written and thought out and does slow burn developments so well #so i thought i was idk actually seeing something?? w/e fml #anyway this is a bit of a rant so i might delete/edit this later to reflect my Calm Mood lmfao

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iiinejghafa · 5 years

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it's been like 3 weeks and i still have 0 motivation to read king of scars lmao but I bought the damn ebook so i guess ill have to suck it up at some point. :/

#like the more i hear about it the less i wanna read it

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iiinejghafa · 5 years

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some post clearly tagged as alvareider or penelope x schneider: there's a lot of interesting parallels and subtext, including some really clear ones in season 3, that might indicate penelope and schneider will get together in a future season and here's a detailed analysis with specific examples!

some rando who didnt read the post: STOP SHIPPING THEM TOGETHER he jokingly called her his sister so that means they CANT POSSIBLY GET TOGETHER yall just cant handle platonic m/f relationships I guess!!!!

#one day at a time #alvareider #penelope x schneider #it really costs $0 to talk about it on your own blog instead of purposefully going into the tags and commenting #like do you really think youre going to change peoples minds?#especially w how hostile the comments are?#also really telling that this is a Theme among mixed race ships where theres super adament backlash #not that its the main factor but i don't think it helps #anyway we wont know until the show tells us so calm down and let people enjoy it thanks!

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iiinejghafa · 5 years

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This is a wonderful analysis and really spot on.

I'm more in the Option 1 camp for reasons I talk about here and here; imo the reason they haven't had more overt subtext like they did in s3 is because Penelope and Schneider needed to go through specific developments to ever reach a point where mutual feelings could happen.

Penelope needed to truly get over Victor, learn she needs someone who shares her values and goals while also sharing a "spark"/passion

Schneider needed to learn not to tolerate loveless shitty relationships (both romantic and familial), needed to know what a real loving relationship is like, address his history with his father and addiction

Their relationship had to deepen to the point where they know they can fully trust and rely on each other. In s2 and 3 this is really emphasized by Penelope choosing to turn to Schneider about her depression and subsequently she identifies him as her main emotional support when she’s experiencing anxiety attacks, and Schneider is able to open up about his father, addiction and recovery with Penelope fully supporting him

Obviously there are still hurdles, especially with Schneider’s relationship with Avery, which should theoretically be addressed in season 4, but all the progress they make as characters and in their relationship only benefit an eventual relationship, not negate it if that makes sense?

I think Option 3 is definitely possible but for some reason I can’t see the showrunners/writers, who are clearly very meticulous about the direction of the show and imo likely have most of it planned through the end (or at least know how they want it to end), just kind of winging that element when Penelope finding a partner and romance is such a huge part of the show. I agree that the subtext is dialed down in s1 compared to later seasons, but I can’t decide if that is a result of s1 laying the groundwork and focusing on Penelope’s relationship with Victor or if they were trying to gauge if audiences would pick up on or support that dynamic. It’s really tricky, because you’re absolutely right that they aren’t particularly subtle about a lot of things and this seems to be the one thing they bury in subtext and parallels but also don’t disprove in any way.

What really sets it in stone for me that SOMETHING will happen is the iconic speech from Nicole in s3. Not even what she says and how every point matches up to Schneider’s relationship with Penelope, but the way it’s done and the timing. Nicole is extremely similar to Penelope, is played by a showrunner, and gives this speech about her flawed fiance who’s a recovering addict. Just a few episodes before we get explicit confirmation that Schneider is Penelope’s emotional support, but in the SAME EPISODE at this speech she breaks up with Mateo because she doesn’t care enough about him (specifically, doesn’t care when she imagines something bad happening to him) AND learns about Schneider’s relapse, which leads to her first lines in the next episode being “I couldn’t sleep last night [because I was worried about Schneider]”.

This is all just so...direct and pointed, but it’s never brought out of this strongly hinted subtext. Like you said the subtext is so LOUD this season that I was just waiting for something to be made explicit, like some confession or realization from one of them. It’s SO CLOSE but not there yet. I have to wonder, is it because Penelope (the POV/focal point of the show) doesn’t know she has feelings for Schneider yet? Will we not see explicit, surface-level stuff until Penelope makes the realization for herself after putting together all the same clues we’ve been getting the last 3 seasons??

This got long lmao but basically, this is a great analysis and it’s really hard to say what the show is trying to do. I think season 4 is the make-it-or-break-it season; I actually have no doubts that it’ll be canon (in the sense that it’s at the least one-sided) in s4 but I’m a lot less sure as to how the show will unveil it or how they will explain the first 3 seasons of their relationship and development.

ODAAT meta: Penelope x Schneider + what on earth are the writers thinking?

Okay SO I have not been able to stop thinking about Penelope and Schneider’s relationship in ODAAT season 3. The alvareider subtext was so fucking LOUD that I’m now beyond thinking that I’m reaching or that it’s all an accident, and I had to work out my thoughts.

IMO, The writers can only be doing one of three things at this point:

1.) Beginning to hint at a future of penelope x schneider by slowly dialing up the intimacy between them and emphasizing their importance to and reliance on one another in their lives so that a future romantic relationship seems not only plausible to the casual viewer, but inevitable and right.

2.) Purposely giving alvareider shippers little tiny things to hold onto because they have no intention of actually Going There with them but don’t want to alienate those viewers entirely because they need all the support can get.

3.) They haven’t decided either way about where they want to take them so they’re toeing the line between friendship and potential romance so they can keep their options open.

Below the cut I’ll discuss why I’ve come to this conclusion and make my best guess as to which option is the most likely (which of course only matters if we get another season, but I can’t think dark thoughts right now).

Keep reading

#one day at a time #alvareider #penelope x schneider #i think 1 and 3 are both possible tbh #in the sense that they planned it from the start but are less certain as the seasons go on if they want to carry it out #bc i feel like it's mixed among fans whether they want it to happen or not #some people are adamantly for their friendship and some want them to get together #(altho tbh people always pull this card w/ mixed race relationships where they always think they're 'just friends!')#so who knows

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iiinejghafa · 5 years

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you know, i bet if penelope was a white woman, schneider and penelope would be the ultimate otp of the show - be it canon or not

i can’t keep seeing this trend where the female lead is woc and she has a ~close friend that she has great chemistry with, but people just see them as siblings

“we value male/female platonic relationship”

interesting that y’all only support it when the other half is a woc

#adding on to my other posts - i think this is also a factor in why people are so adament w it being platonic #not for everyone obviously but this is a long-standing trend in fandom wrt mixed race ships soooo #one day at a time

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iiinejghafa · 5 years

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i get people not liking alvareider etc but i think it's getting silly how often I've seen people be like "but they're like siblings stop shipping people together just bc it's a man and woman”; the preference to have them remain platonic is of course valid and they have a lovely friendship, but it’s not the sole canon interpretation of their relationship. odaat has not gone out of its way to present their relationship as purely familial or platonic and in fact has given us a lot of hints that there could be more to it than that in the future.

there's nothing wrong with not liking them together and i think the main reasons people cite - that it would be heteronormative and that there aren't enough platonic m/f friendships - are valid, and i’m definitely not telling people they HAVE to support them getting together. but to claim there's no basis for it in-canon, or that their relationship can only be interpreted to be 100% familial/platonic, is just not in line with what the show presents us

if penelope and schneider's relationship is meant to seem purely platonic, or only support the interpretation that they will never get together, the writers would not:

- repeatedly pull the "mistaken girlfriend" trope (with victor, with schneider's dad, with the therapy group) across three seasons for no logical reason (ie, there's no purpose to these exchanges as they don't affect the plot or their dynamic, esp the two instances in s3)

- slip in acknowledgement of attraction ("i'm attracted to you/weirdly sexy schneider", "beautiful veteran lady", schneider offering to have sex with penelope)

- directly connect penelope not seeking emotional support from her romantic partners and finding emotional support in schneider in the same scene of the same episode (which is, not coincidentally, when one instance of being mistaken for schneider's love interest occurs)

- create parallels between schneider and penelope's love interests (victor and max have especially notable parallels, esp wrt addiction and children)

- present a penelope look-alike who gives a speech on why she loves her imperfect fiance (also a recovering addict) for reasons that apply to schneider's role in penelope's life, leading to penelope to break up with her boyfriend because she doesn't care enough about him, and ending with her discovering schneider has relapsed ALL IN THE SAME EPISODE

- following that, having the penelope look-alike say she would get so upset if something happened to her fiance, penelope explaining to mateo that when she imagines something bad happening to him she doesnt get upset or care, and then after hearing about schneider's relapse having her say she couldn't sleep that night because she was worried about him (before she even knows for sure he relapsed)

this is all subtext and a lot of it has been present in the show since s1. just because it's not as obvious or direct as most sitcom or slow burn romances though I think the speech is pretty direct doesn't mean it’s not there - again, it's subtext - and if it does happen then the show will have sneakily laid out the groundwork that will be more obvious in hindsight. odaat is very good at slow burn development and reveals, and imho i think these hints aren't more obvious because penelope, the focal character of the show, hasn’t made the realizations that will bring the subtext to text. not to mention both penelope and schneider have gone through (and need to continue going through) important personal development before they can get to that place, but that's a different post.

#one day at a time #alvareider #penelope x schneider #odaat #it's like every other alvareider post there's a STOP SHIPPING THEM comment like damn relax #even if it really was 100% platonic and only presented as such it's fine if people like them together lmao like w/e #i don't want to get into the sister comments but all i'll say is #1) iirc schneider has only made comments like that when pen isn't around #2) pen has never reciprocated this mentality and even gets annoyed when he acts like a 'son' to lydia etc so

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