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akajustmerry · 2 years

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Hey! Curious if you think there are instances where things walk the line between queerbait & subtext and/or use subtext as part of queerbaiting? There are some specific instances I'm thinking of and u can probably guess what they are but I'm interested to hear more of your thoughts in general :)

Hi!

You can't use subtext as part of queerbaiting. Subtext and queerbaiting can't really coexist like that. The definition of queerbaiting is advertising queer content that isn't there, period. Subtext, by definition, is an intentional implicit part of the story that the creator has intentionally put there. If there are intentional queer subtexts in a text then any advertising of queerness isn't queerbaiting.

I think what you're referring to when you say can queer subtext be part of queerbaiting is actually just when showrunners show they're aware of a popular queer reading. A queer reading is when someone interprets a piece of media through a queer lens, thus viewing it as queer despite the creator of that media having no intention of making it that way. There are loads of shows where a queer reading of the show is the dominant one. For example, most people who watched BBC Merlin/Sherlock interpreted those shows as queer despite ZERO and I do mean ZERO actual queerness subtext or otherwise in those shows.

I'm not an authority on the series itself but there is a whole section of acedemia dedicated to the queerbaiting campaign that occurred with Teen Wolf. I no longer have access to my uni library to share the article but basically the showrunners of teen wolf asked their stars (I think Dylan and Tyler) to be in all these promos where they were acting all flirty as if their characters were going to be that way. The showrunners themselves later said these promos were designed to appeal to the large queer audience the show gained, BUT they had no intention of actually delivering queer narratives in the show. That's what queerbaiting is. It's when queerness is advertised to draw in queer audiences, but there is no intention of delivering. when the showrunners of a show use the fandoms popular queer reading of characters as part of advertising, that's creating queerbaiting from a queer reading.

Of course when it comes to film and TV, things aren't always clear cut. Sometimes a piece of media won't be written with queerness, subtext or otherwise, but an actor may decide to play a character in a queer way. A recent example of this is z*e kravitz in interviews claiming she played catwoman as bi in the Batman. Some people think this counts as subtext. Me? I have a rule with this shit and it's very simple: if my oblivious homophobic uncle could watch it and plausibly argue it's not gay then it isn't. Media that prioritises placating homophobic audiences isn't actually making queer content.

Queer content is queer if there is an intentionally executed queer subtext/themes/plot. A piece of media having a large queer audience that interprets the show as gay, or uses queerness in advertising, still isn't gay unless the media is actually is queer. If the show isn't queer in any meaningful textual way, but you still feel it is then that's you accepting/creating a queer reading, which is valid, but it still doesn't make the media itself gay.

lmk if you have any questions ❤️ hope that answers what you asked. x

#anon #media representation #lgbt

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annatorv · 4 years

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Hi! I saw an older reply to a post where you said Olivia was a lesbian coded character since the beginning and I’m curious what makes you feel that way and if it was the writers’ intention. I would think it was by accident if they intended for Olivia and Peter to be together (although I also heard that it wasn’t originally planned that way?But what about the thing with John Scott? I’m in no way arguing-just genuinely curious. And do you think that Anna portrayed Olivia as a lesbian on purpose?

sjdfks this is the third time i receieve an ask about that statement and i just never got around to replying sjdfks oopsies!

i mean i don’t think it was the writers intention to make the olivias come off as lesbians (altliv though... like what were they trying to do exactly... that’s a full on Dyke sdfjks), but there’s something about the way they carry themselves that makes me genuinely believe that if this show had premiered in 2020 at least one of them would have been written as a lesbian or bi character. the show premiered during a time when gay characters were slowly making their way into television but were still far from being a “normal” part of any tv show – and 2008 definitely wasn’t a time where you’d see a lesbian (or bi or gay or trans) lead of any tv show. like that shit is still rare today !! so there’s just no way that the writers would intentionally write a gay lead for fringe. but what they did do, unintentionally i assume, was to give her and her alternate a bunch of stereotypically lesbian traits. the olivia dunhams are women who don’t spend any time on their appearance (altliv dyes her hair but that’s just to give the daftest of viewers a way to tell them apart sdfjsk), wear traditionally masculine clothes, have no patience with men, have an extreme kind of chemistry with literally any female character they come in contact with.... even each other...... i always refer to this post about how olivia differs so strongly from other female characters on tv so i might as well link it again ! but of course, if you don’t want to see these things in this light you don’t have to.

when it comes to john scott he is a catalyst for the story to get started; olivia needed a reason to go get peter. the plot holes of the john/olivia relationship are proof of that (the fact that he had got her an engagement ring before they had even said i love you to each other... but i mean that might just be proof that john scott was a lesbian actually but that’s a whole other story sdfjsk), including the fact that the writers made peter and olivia vibe while her almost-fiancé was a dying jellyfish on the lab table..... all proof of johns role in the story. but n e ways.... i believe that the reason why so many people in the lgbt community have claimed the dunhams is because these characters appeal to us exactly because they are easy to identify with from a gay standpoint, for the reasons stated above. that being said – the olivias are amazing role models for women in general! it’s just sad and fucked up that olivia ends up in a relationship with a man who puts her down exactly for the traits that make her break the female stereotype in television; the writers praising fauxlivia for being more feminine for peter, and putting olivia down for not being like that, for being a woman in a “negative” way. a similar "negative” way of being a woman that makes lesbians feel alienated from their own gender

so yeah whether anna portrayed the olivias this way on purpose is of course hard to say, but she has said in one interview that she hoped that olivia would take on a maternal role for peter and walter, “the two lost boys”, which i interpret as that she didn’t see peter and olivia as a romantic match (i dont have the interview on hand now so maybe someone who does can link it in a reply!).

thank u for letting me ramble sdjfksj love some solid olivia dunham essaying on a monday afternoon

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ask-shakespearehigh · 5 years

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Q&A post with the Mods!!!!

This is going to be a long one oh boy

How strict is the delineation of creative control vis-a-vis characters/plays between the mods? (@pedanticlecturer)

We generally have the plays split up along lines of “what we know”— we have a list at the very beginning of the blog. Sometimes we’ll draw the others’ characters (mostly me drawing some of Star’s…) but even then the final say on characterization is up to the “main” mod for that play — mod aster

what aster said -- mod star

What is your favorite play? What is your favorite character in terms of how they were written in the source material? (@pedanticlecturer)

I think my favorite play overall is Macbeth, just because I like the vibes (and the fact that I too could kill Macbeth), the fact that you don’t say it’s name in theatres, and the fact that it’s a play I did a full read through and analysis of in class. Favorite character? Puck from Midsummer. — mod aster

uhhhh,, hmm. ive always had a soft spot for midsummer since i saw it with aster esp bc of how fun the costumes were. of the comedies it has the largest potential to be the most visually pleasing bc of the concept of fairies,,,and im gay and dramatic so i love that. id die if i got to costume design for midsummer,,,or be in it,,,yeah. fav character. hmm. probably mercutio?? i recently saw a version of romeo and juliet where mercutio was played by a woman and oh my god it was amazing!!! not to mention mercutio’s portrayal in baz luhrmann's INCREDIBLE version of r n j!!! (I based my mercutio design on him) he just spends the entire time making dick jokes. love that. -- mod star

How do you answer asks so fast? I mean it's great but I'm impressed 😂 (Anon)

Personally, it’s a mix of: notifications on, quick drawing speed, and using the blog to avoid my class work — mod aster

aster is fast and (as you can see from all of my answers) im lazey -- mod star

Are there any elements/characters of the plays you're covering that you would have liked to work into this blog's plot, but couldn't due to the constraints of the setting or the synthetic nature of the blog? (@pedanticlecturer)

I wanted to make everyone gay but unfortunately due to plot constraints we have to have some hets but that wont stop me from making it lgbt as possible. -- mod star

I did want to make The Tempest more of a central play, but it just didn’t translate well. Similarly, other supernatural elements like the witches in Macbeth. This isn’t so much a constraint mentioned, but my own time/energy means that I want to show the Macbeth backstory, in a specific format, but I can’t right now— mod aster

Is there a hierarchy of import when it comes to each play's individualized impact on shakespeare high's general arc? If so, what plays are crucial to the foundation of the story? Which ones did you do mostly for shits and giggles? (@pedanticlecturer)

This is phrased like an ACT question and i might not answer it right so sorry in advance but: mod aster and i only selected a few plays for each of us to do given we dont know all of shakespeare’s works, but we tend to put more emphasis on the the more well known. But it also comes down to 1. How much we have plotted out for each play and 2. What the followers ask about most. Our two most popular are hamlet and macbeth bc people are familiar w those but around march caesar always becomes relevant again. I didnt even have designs for some of the characters until someone asked about them. -- mod star

I would say the same as star— it generally comes down to what people ask about. I will say that the overall plot is sort of separated into “has happened” and “is happening”. Like, the human potion of Midsummer, Julius Caesar, and Macbeth are all in the “aftermath” portion, while Twelfth Night, Hamlet, and Romeo and Juliet, among others, are happening. We’re trying to incorporate as much as we can, and I don’t think any of them were really put in without some thought.— mod aster

What personal significance does shakespeare hold in ur guys' lives? (@pedanticlecturer)

I go to a theater school rn and so ive dealt w shakespeare (although not all of them) it also helps that i was in loves labours lost last year as moth and that i read hamlet and r n j. Theres also a theater in my state that always does One Big Shakespeare per season and they always do them super well!!! My love for shakespeare probably started w seeing midsummer at that theater w mod aster!!! So. Theater kid rights!! -- mod star

To be honest, I got back into Shakespeare Because of the blog. I’ve been friends with some people that got really Pretentious about Shakespeare, and it kinda put me off of it. I did have a book of abridged plays (the plays’ plots written out in prose, basically) that I read as a kid, which is what got me into not only the plots of a lot of the plays, but also the idea of having them illustrated. And, same as star, the theater in state does the One Big Shakespeare— and they tend to do some really cool things with the costumes, setting them in diff time periods. I haven’t been able to see any lately since I’ve moved, but they still slap. — mod aster

🥰😘💙🥰🥰💜💟🥰I 😍💗💚😍😍LOVE🖤🖤 YALL ♥️♥️🧡💛💚💝❣️💕💘💖💗💓💞💝❤️💛💜 okay now i have a question i swear— how long have the two of you been doing art??? and what were your first shakespeare plays??? (@hellaghosts)

Uhh i started drawing when i was like idk 12 and i have the giant boxes of sketchbooks to prove it!!! I moved to digital art at abt 14-15 but mostly stayed traditional until this yr when i got a Neat New Tablet so some of my sketchbooks are sitting abandoned rip. My first shakespeare was either romeo and juliet or midsummer nights dream and i love both of them v much!!! I have a very old piece of art that i did for r n j for my freshman class assignment on it and it hasnt aged well alsdjfjafd circa 2016 i think??? -- mod star

Oh man. I started drawing when I was about 10, but it was Bad. I don’t think I got much into drawing again until I was about 14? Sometime around the end of middle school/beginning of high school. I would say I started getting into drawing as more than doodling/coloring edits sometime around 2015-16? I would draw on my iPad with my finger, then I got a tablet for my computer, and now I pretty much stick to my iPad with an Apple Pencil. My first Shakespeare play was….. uh…… probably Midsummer???? I have No idea. We would go to plays when I was little, so I honestly don’t remember if I saw others before. It may have been Romeo and Juliet— I had that book where it was the original and the “modernized” with the little dog that explained things— which, if you know it makes sense, but if you don’t is probably a bonkers answer. — mod aster

Do you think this blog has like? An overarching thesis (be it b/c intentionally or simply b/c ur own take on the world has bled thru to the point where u believe it’s central to the piece at this point)? (@pedanticlecturer)

Not gonna lie, I had to read that like three times AND dm you to figure out what you were asking from us and all I have is “be gay, respect women, write your own happy endings”. — mod aster

This blog started with an ides of march shitpost and you think we have enough brain energy to write a whole thesis? I projected feelings of found family onto my half of the blog but idk if that counts. Be gay do crime 420 69 -- mod star

What’s the nature/rough dynamic of ur relationship? How do y’all know each other? (@pedanticlecturer)

Met mod aster when i was like 4 and even tho we didnt live close we became like, best friends although the Best part didnt start until we were like 13-ish and eventually we talked like non stop (about anime and homestuck. Yknow. 13 year old kid things) and we didnt see each other a lot bc of Distance and now its even worse bc aster is in colleg.,e but we consider each other siblings regardless of family bc we’re adopted into our own respective families so that bled over into our friendship and it would feel weird calling him anything other than my brother now. We’ve seen each other at our best and worst and if you really want a good insight on what we’re like as siblings watch griffin and justin mcelroy’s overview video of catlateral damage wherein i am griffin and he is the long suffering justin. -- mod star

Star is basically my long distance sibling and functionally the only cousin I recognize bc like their parents are basically an aunt and uncle and like our dads look enough alike that we’ve both accidentally gotten the wrong dad for a hug or similar so like. Anyways yeah Star is the Griffin to my Justin, complete with our absent middle brother who we love dearly— mod aster

Dubiously relevant q but what kind of music do y’all listen to when u do art (if that is indeed a habit either of u partake in) (@pedanticlecturer)

It can depend on the piece? I was working on some (unrelated) oc prints that were song-focused, and for those I just listened to said song on loop. Sometimes I have playlists. Sometimes I’ll just be in a Mood and throw a song on loop. But a lot of time for the blog, I’ll listen to The Adventure Zone for the billionth time, because I have Too Much Attention. I’ve also, on request from Star, linked the most recent “loop song”.— mod aster

I tend to obsess over the same like 3 songs every few weeks so those get listened to on repeat but it also depends on the tone of what im drawing or who im drawing i might genre switch bc of that. If im drawing ophelia i stick to lana del rey and if im drawing hamlet its the neighborhood, horatio is sufjan stevens etc. i have categorized,. Most of the characters i draw into different songs/genres/energies of music but not like i ever follow that. Sometimes i just pull up a really long nonsense video and forget to draw. Essentially: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -- mod star

How’d y’all come up with ur pseudonyms? (@pedanticlecturer)

I love space so much and my main blog is starryeydsailor space gay rights!! Im also tiny and full of energy and bright so basically i;m star -- mod star

Uhhhh i was like “hey i want to do uhhhhhh flower?” And then I google searched flower names until I found one I liked —- mod aster

How did you end up deciding the rough timeline of events in canon? (@pedanticlecturer)

It’s mostly determined by like. How we choose per story? If that makes sense. Like, we just take story by story, and decide “is it happening, has it happened, and when?” And then we fit them together in relation to each other just by dint of. All existing at once. Like, I knew I wanted Macbeth to be in aftermath, because like, even though there’s no murder, the way I’ve translated it to the AU is still kinda heavy, and it’s something that I don’t know that I could do properly if it were happening right now. Also, it’s more interesting IMO to have them at different times. Tl;dr we wing it per story and slot them together— mod aster (mod star agrees I just can word better, in theory)

If you could tell the story of shakespeare high in a different format than an ask blog, would you? Obviously y'all are making very good use of the format, but would you want to write this as a animated series or like? a comic book? or is the form inseparable from the story? (@pedanticlecturer)

I kinda wanted to do a webcomic or maybe to plot develop through like, animatics but the element of surprise comes from the asks we get and really makes us think so the blog is a good start. We didnt think we’d get this far -- mod star

Pretty much what Star said— there are certain elements where it’d be neat to do as a comic or as an animatic. Like, the fantasy dream is like, an anthology webcomic of each story, where you can like, see other characters in the background and stuff. But to be honest, we develop a lot by what we’re asked— there was a post about developing worldbuilding by being asked questions and then pretending you’ve thought about the answer, and it’s not far off. Personally, it’s hard to just lay out a story, because I have a whole WORLD and what’s relevant? What are people interested in? It’s by getting questions that I can then focus in on an area to develop. And yeah, we Super didn’t think we’d get this far lmao — mod aster

Any headcanons about your characters that you don't think will ever come up on the blog through asks or plot posts? (@pedanticlecturer)

I could make a whole separate post for this!!!!! Mostly its voice headcanons (and by mostly i mean like 1 or 2) or relationship hcs!!!! -- mod star

Honestly same. I don’t think I have voice headcanons for mine, though I bet I could find some. I’ve got a bunch of miscellaneous headcanons that just kinda float around, but like they’re scattered, too numerous for this post, and also not always things I’m sure are canon yet.— mod aster

#mod post #mod aster #mod star #q and a #birthday #we cant seem to read more AND tag so like brb gonna go kill god

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