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hedgehogsofasgard · 5 years

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Why you shouldn’t always trust your vet’s advice blindly

and why people on the internet are sometimes right.

Lately I’ve been seeing a few posts going around in hedgehog Facebook groups accusing people of “hating vets” and how vets should always be trusted 100%, and be trusted over advice from the community.

I think it’s important to address these concerns. First, pointing out wrong and possibly dangerous vet advice has nothing to do with hating vets. I respect and appreciate vets and their hard work and I’m positive most others in the community feel the same way. But that doesn’t mean I trust every vet blindly, and neither should you. The same goes for advice given on the internet. So who should you trust?

When it comes to common pets such as cats and dogs there are plenty of experienced vets and there is plenty of scientific research on a wide variety of subjects. When it comes to exotics however, there is very little information, most of it is outdated and vets don’t get to work with these animals very often. They learn little to nothing about these animals in vet school. This post isn’t about cats and dogs and other common pets. This post is about the rare exotics and the difficulties of finding the right balance between vet care and input from the community.

Let me take my own pets as an example: I own animals most vets have never seen before in their lives. I own animals most vets have never even heard of.

This means I can confidently say that I, as an owner, rescuer and breeder, have more experience and knowledge about my animals than the vast majority of vets. The same goes for many other people in the community who have experience with certain exotics. Experience which spans years or sometimes even decades. Compare the experience of someone like that to the lack of experience of most vets. Someone who has owned a certain species for years versus someone who just read half a page about them in a veterinary handbook or Googled some symptoms. I’ve been in situations where the vet actually told me they felt bad about having to charge me because they learnt more from me than the other way around.

I have several years of experience in caring for these animals, I read every scientific paper I can get my hands on and I am an active member of the (online) communities. My vets and I work closely together and we’ve read the same handbooks and manuals. Many of these contain outdated information. Sometimes there’s new research on a subject that hasn’t been included in veterinary handbooks yet and sometimes it’s through trial and error by the community that new things get discovered. It is very important for a vet not to dismiss this as “keyboard nonsense”. There are certain things I leave up to my vet and there are things I leave up to myself; the research I’ve done and the input of the community. I might be experienced in some fields but there are others I know nothing about. For me, vets are there for everything I can’t do myself: this includes veterinary treatment such as surgeries. This is often not species specific and this is something vets have studied for and know more about than I do, so that’s where I’ll have to trust them. Same goes for choosing the right medication and dosage, although some treatments are up for discussion (such as the use of Ivermectin).

For everything else I trust my own experience, research and the community more than my vet. Simply because the latter doesn’t have the experience and knowledge on subjects such as general care, behaviour, nutrition... during vet school they have learnt little to nothing about these species (and what they learnt is often outdated) and at work most of them don’t get much real hands-on experience with these species either. Take nutrition for example. The community knows most hedgehog food is unsuitable for hedgehogs due to its ingredients, yet many vets still recommend it simply because that’s what they learnt from their textbooks or in school. This is often information from decades ago.

As an example of something which could be easily prevented if the vet did more research/the owner would’ve listened to the community instead of blindly following the (inexperienced) vet, let’s take a look at Wobbly Hedgehog Syndrome (WHS).

Probably one of the most common medical mistakes regarding pygmy hedgehogs is vets diagnosing them with WHS, a very rare degenerative disease a bit similar to multiple sclerosis in humans. This disease is extremely rare and presents itself (usually) with a gradual onset of a wobbling, unsteady gait and paralysis starting at the back end, which worsens over the course of several months. WHS can only be diagnosed through necropsy. There is no way to diagnose the disease when the hedgehog is alive. The cause is unknown, although there are a few theories, and there is no cure.

Over the years I’ve seen a disturbing amount of hedgehogs diagnosed with WHS, while they were alive (impossible), and very obviously suffering from something completely different. Some of them have died while they could have been cured if they’d gotten the proper treatment instead of a misdiagnosis. In hedgehogs, one of the first major signs of illness (often after people have failed to notice the minor ones, since hedgehogs are incredibly good at hiding their illnesses) is wobbling and an unsteady gait. In fact it can be caused by something as simple as a hibernation attempt which is easily reversed by warming up the animal. Some illnesses which can show similar symptoms to WHS are: hibernation attempts, inner ear infections, a stroke, other neurological damage, spinal damage, malnutrition, a severe mite infestation, organ failure, and more.

Some of these issues are incredibly common and easy to treat as opposed to the non-curable and rare WHS.

I’ve seen people with shaky or (partially) paralysed hedgehogs go to a vet, only to be given a WHS diagnosis which essentially means a death sentence for the animal. Recently someone I talked to had this happen to them and when people suggested a second opinion with a different vet, they went and x-rays were taken. The animal turned out to have a slipped disk which was treatable. I’ve rescued a hedgehog several years ago which was found outside and brought to an inexperienced vet who told them the animal was paralysed. It turned out she was just severely emaciated and she made a full recovery. And there are more stories like this. These are just two examples of misdiagnosis.

The community isn’t always right either

Just like not every vet knows all about hedgehogs and tenrecs (or other exotics), not everyone online does either. And even if people are very knowledgeable that doesn’t mean they are always right, or that there’s only one way to do things. All of this can be very confusing especially to new owners. It is understandable that many of them will - at first - trust their vet blindly, after all aren’t they “the authority” on animal husbandry and veterinary medicine since they actually went to school for it? We’ve already established such a degree means little to nothing when it comes to certain subjects of exotic animal care, but that doesn’t mean everyone on the internet is suddenly right. Someone can own animals for decades and still have questionable care practices.

When posting a story or a video which shows a shaking, wobbly hedgehog just as many owners will reply with concerns about WHS - even if the likelihood of the disease is extremely small.

When it comes to exotics like hedgehogs and tenrecs, neither should be trusted blindly: not the vets and not the community. Ideally, the two should work together. And none should want to replace the other.

Internet advice should never replace a vet visit

Do: asking for advice online while heading to a vet.

Don’t: asking for advice online and not going to a vet.

In the first situation, you and your vet can examine the animal and compare the advice given with the vet’s knowledge on the subject. Especially when the vet isn’t too experienced, advice from more experienced owners and breeders (or other vets) can help in certain situations.

As for the second situation - people on the internet are not a replacement for a vet. I can’t stress this enough. When in doubt, ALWAYS go to a vet. Even vets themselves aren’t supposed to diagnose your animal from a picture on the internet. Vets exist for a reason.

Do: voicing concerns and advising people to seek out proper treatment.

Don’t: diagnosing illnesses from a story online (whether you’re a vet or not).

When I see someone with a sick hedgehog or tenrec and I’m suspecting a certain illness or a misdiagnosis, I don’t just point it out. I recommend seeking out vet care or a second opinion. Not a “your hedgehog has x” or “your vet is wrong, your pet doesn’t have x it has y”. Instead: “I suspect it might be x, please seek out veterinary treatment, we cannot give a diagnosis or recommend specific treatment online” or “I suspect it might be y instead of x. It is a common misdiagnosis and your description/picture/video points towards something else than the current diagnosis. I recommend going to a different vet for a second opinion”. Why? Because I am not a vet, and even if I were, I wouldn’t give out veterinary advice online.

Example: I received pictures of a very sick hedgehog from someone who just came back from a holiday and found their hedgehog unresponsive and very weak. Everything pointed towards a severe mite infestation. I told the owner, who already had a vet appointment scheduled. The hedgehog was put under to be examined and the owner mentioned the possibility of mites multiple times but this was dismissed by the vet. They didn’t find anything else but the vet suspected kidney damage and send them home with a glucose injection and some Hills a/d to syringe feed. Once back home, the owner sent me a close-up video of what the vet said was “sand” or “dust”, except it was crawling all over the hedgehog. Not only did the vet dismiss the concerns of me and the owner, they somehow managed to miss a severe mite infestation while examining the animal under anaesthesia. The animal received proper treatment after a second visit to a different vet but unfortunately didn’t make it.

Tips on finding a good vet

A good vet is worth their weight in gold. They do an incredibly difficult job for which they often don’t get the recognition they deserve. A job that can be very emotionally draining. And they have to deal with people who “know better” all the time. People who’ve read something online, follow the latest fad, read fake studies and voice concerns with no scientific backup whatsoever. I can fully understand a vet wanting to eye-roll at a client who read something online and is convinced their pet now has that incredibly rare disease and didn’t just catch a simple URI. With the internet it almost seems like everyone can become an expert in just a few clicks. When it comes to treating exotics however, there is indeed a wealth of knowledge amongst the community that can’t be found in textbooks and isn’t taught in school. Vets need to realize this. The only way to work with exotics is more often than not by trial and error. By listening to experienced owners and discussing treatments with other vets.

Especially when you own exotics like hedgehogs and tenrecs finding a good vet is important. Here are some tips:

Find a good vet before you get your pet. Another thing I can’t stress enough. Nothing as heartbreaking as having a very sick animal and not being able to find a vet who can treat them. And, this is probably not something people want to hear: don’t get the animal if you cannot find any good vets within travelling distance. If there is no one in your area to treat them, it doesn’t matter how badly you want the species: don’t buy them. It is incredibly unfair to the animal and it’s entirely on you if you cannot provide veterinary treatment when the animal needs it.

Keep in mind that most exotic vets are more expensive than regular vets.

Find an experienced vet and ask them about their experience. Ask them how often they have treated said species. Some people think treating a hedgehog twice and following one class on them years ago means being “experienced”. It isn’t.

Respect the decision of some vets not wanting to treat your animal because they don’t feel qualified to do so.

If you really cannot find an experienced vet - and this is almost always the case with rarer exotic species like tenrecs - find a vet who is willing to learn.

In fact this is one of the most, if not the important thing I look for in a vet. They need to be willing to learn and be open to input from others. This means discussing treatments with other vets in the country (or from other countries), as well as with me. They need to be willing to listen and adjust their information if it turns out to be incorrect. It isn’t about who’s right or wrong, it is about the animal receiving the proper treatment.

Find a vet who’s honest about their inexperience. Do not expect them to know everything, and do not blame them for it. Very little is known about hedgehogs and tenrecs and some things aren’t researched well enough or simply not at all. A vet doesn’t necessarily need to be very experienced with the species, being eager to learn and keep their knowledge up to date is more important.

A vet should be transparent about the treatment and discuss it with the owner. Concerns regarding treatment shouldn’t be dismissed.

A vet should be willing to look up things online/read up on online advice together with you and not dismiss any information that isn’t from a veterinary textbook. Do not pick a vet who will only listen to people in their own field or their textbooks.

I’ve been to and heard of experienced exotic vets which refused to listen to the owner, misdiagnosed animals or simply turned out to be not so experienced after all. On the other hand there’s vets with zero experience but who’ve done an excellent job treating animals simply because they wanted to learn, were open to input from the owner and others (from the medical/scientific field as well as the community). I’d take the latter over the former any day.

So, long story short: when it comes to exotic animals such as hedgehogs and tenrecs vets aren’t always the most trustworthy authority especially not in any field other than medical. If multiple experienced people in the community question certain veterinary advice, chances are high it is indeed incorrect and possibly harmful. The same goes for advice that can be found online - it doesn’t always have to be correct. Do not trust every source blindly, vet or otherwise, and do as much research as possible so you can make an informed decision on what would be best for your pet.

#animals #pets #petblr #hedgehog #african pygmy hedgehog #tenrec #exotic animals #exotics #vetblr #vet #vet care #veterinary medicine

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saiilorstars · 4 years

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The Beginning of Everything

Ch. 18: The Medicine Man

Fandom: Doctor Who

Pairing: Female OC x 10th Doctor

(OC Renata’s Face claim: Marjorie de Sousa) (Gabby’s face claim: Victoria Moroles)

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DISCLAIMER: This chapter’s plotline is from Doctor Who’s comic stories. Most of the dialogue is directly written from the comic. The plot is NOT mine.

Chapter Summary: The Doctor and Renata have brought their companions to the very early days of Earth. While the Doctor tries to get back in Renata's good graces -- after pulling a very small bit with her -- he suffers and injury that renders him unconscious, leaving Renata fully in charge.

When Renata woke up, she was almost immediately swept away from her room by Donna. It was breakfast time but Renata kept pointing out that she hadn't yet made breakfast for anyone. Donna didn't seem to mind as she brought the Time Lady down the hallway until they reached the kitchen...where breakfast had already been served.

"What...is going on?" Renata's eyes were wide as she took in the table set up with different breakfast plates. She saw a few pancakes stacked in the middle of the table, a neat file of toast on another plate, fresh strawberries, apples and berries in a bowl. There were even a few crepes in the corner that, while oddly shaped, did look pretty good. The Doctor and Gabby stood beside the table seeming far too innocent for Renata's liking. "What did you do?"

"Breakfast!" the two chorused together with the same grin on their faces.

"What?" Renata glanced at Donna for some additional information, but the ginger shrugged.

"Don't look at me. They already had this done when I came in."

Renata shifted from one foot to the other. "I don't understand..."

The Doctor smiled at her and walked up to her. "What's to understand? Gabby and I thought you always make breakfast for us-"

"And delicious dinners!" Gabby added with a raised finger in the air.

"-and we just thought it was time we made something for you," the Doctor took Renata's hand and led her to the table. He watched her study the plates with such a shock on her face. It was almost as if nobody had ever done something like that for her. "Renée?"

"Hmm?" she raised her head, meeting his gaze to show sparkling eyes. "Oh, um...thank you." She brought her other hand to cover his hand holding hers. "Really, thank you."

The Doctor wouldn't admit to himself the strange rush he felt when Renata touched his hand, much less when she smiled at him. He would also not admit to the feeling he got when Renata pulled her hands away from him, even when she'd only done it to thank Gabby next. He was being too weird, even for himself.

"You two are wonderful," Renata gave Gabby a hug. "I didn't think the Doctor was capable of cooking-"

"Hey!" went the man in question, frowning while the others giggled.

"But I should've known you, Gabriella, would have inherited your family's cooking abilities. Well done."

"Well, Mom taught me a few things here and there but it's just breakfast," Gabby shrugged. "Mom knows how to do the best stuff though."

"Still, I'm really thankful for this sweet gesture," Renata looked between the two responsible for the meal, though it lasted very short because of the blush that'd run through her face. It's just breakfast don't twist things, she berated herself.

"Sit," Gabby ushered Renata to take the open seat in front of her.

"Don't mind if I do," Donna gladly said and grabbed a seat for herself.

As Renata looked over the plates, she admitted that most of it - if not all of it - smelled pretty good. Her eyes perked up even more at the sight of her favorite ingredients for the best breakfast ever. She grabbed a piece of toast then spread butter over it to finally top it off with sugar.

"I guess now I know where you got that from, huh?" the Doctor quietly asked her.

Renata froze just as she was about to take a bite out of the toast. Zuriah had loved this precise breakfast and so now it was only logical for the Doctor to believe that 'Zuriah' taught Renata about it.

"Y-yeah," Renata ultimately nodded.

"My Mom eats toast like that," Gabby pointed happily when she noticed Renata's plate. "I love it too." Renata nodded, grateful that Gabby was unknowingly moving the subject along.

"Alright, so where are we going today?" Donna then asked in-between bites of her pancakes.

"I dunno, where do you want to go?" the Doctor returned the question and watched the ginger consider her many, many options. She ultimately chose the past.

"But none of that New York or ancient Greece thing! I want something different!"

The Doctor thought about the possible places he could bring them. He crossed gazes with Renata who, like Donna and Gabby, was patiently waiting for him to make a decision. "How's about we turn it into a real life lesson?"

Gabby perked up knowing he meant her. If this trip would be a chance for her to learn something, it gave ample chance for Renata to tell the Doctor about her fate's prediction. Gabby really hoped Renata would reconsider the idea of keeping it all a secret because, frankly, it wasn't working for Gabby. In fact, it was driving her crazy.

And the worst part was that the Doctor and Donna were beginning to suspect there was something going on with Gabby. Twice she had come very close to spilling the secret. She understood Renata wanted to keep it away in case it meant nothing but...there was also the chance that this meant something and that something would lead to Renata's death. The Doctor already discovered that Renata had been contaminated with alien energy. That was something alright, and still Renata hadn't told the Doctor what the Ood predicted for her. Maybe, just maybe, if Renata spent some time with the Doctor, she would be more inclined to tell him what was going on.

Gabby could only hope.

~0~

Things had started off nicely. A calm - yet very cold and snowy - Earth landscape was the exterior of the group's latest adventure. It wasn't as cold as the Ood planet, but Gabby and Donna did have to bundle up a bit more than usual. When Gabby wondered why neither Renata nor the Doctor seemed that bothered by the cold - since the former had only a thin pink coat while the latter had his usual brown trench coat - Renata explained they were less susceptible to cold and heat.

One new thing Gabby learned.

They spent the entire day wandering through the forest, gazing upon odd ancient creatures roaming around.

"It's so weird seeing a woolly mammoth in person," Gabby chuckled, though it was strained on account of her having to peer over a small rocky hill. "The only ones I know of are from that movie the Ice Age."

Donna scoffed beside her. "That kiddie movie?"

"...I'm 19 Donna." Gabby's cold cheeks flamed with embarrassment but Donna didn't make of the remarks her family usually would. She still liked watching kids' movies and there honestly shouldn't be anything wrong with it! They were quite funny!

"They're pretty huge though," Donna remarked. "Although I thought they would be bigger than your usual elephant."

"That's a misconception," called Renata from below. She and the Doctor were standing right in front of the cliff Gabby and Donna were on. She had her arm wrapped around the Doctor's and it'd been like that ever since they stepped out of the TARDIS. Each time she thought about how long they'd just been casually linking their arms but she felt quite comfortable, very...at home.

"What?" called Donna.

"I, uh, said that was a misconception. Woolly Mammoths are no bigger than your typical African Elephants," Renata clarified and was immediately subjected to bemused looks from the trio. "What? I read. Plus, ancient creatures on Earth are fascinating."

"Oh, so now you think this planet's fascinating?" the Doctor couldn't help the smirk that played on his lips.

"Don't get started," Renata held her free hand at him, motioning that he better stop right there. "I think some things are fascinating. I pick and choose. Woolly Mammoths are one."

Gabby snorted from her spot, choosing to ignore Renata's scolding huff as she gazed back to the snowy field. "They're really beautiful."

"Yeah," Donna agreed with a content sigh. Sometimes it was nice to stop all the running about in space and the future. It gave them a chance to admire the beautiful sceneries they had the privilege to see. The Doctor and Renata brought her and Gabby to a real past trip - the Neanderthal era or the 'Pleistocene Epoch' as the Doctor said (but she couldn't pronounce it).

"C'mon down," Renata instructed to the two after a few more minutes of watching the mammoth herd. "And be careful please."

The women climbed back down and offered the Time Lords to take their chance but Renata flatly refused.

"With my luck, I'd fall," she shook her head and told them they should keep walking. "Evening is going to come by soon so whatever we're going to see, we better do it now so we can start heading back for the TARDIS."

So, they walked again.

"I keep thinking a dinosaur's going to pop in on us," Donna shivered after a particular cold breeze hit them.

"Don't be silly Donna. Dinosaurs are extinct by this point in time," the Doctor said, stopping by a fallen, thick branch. "Oh look at that!" Gabby and Donna hurried around him and Renata but the latter let out a shriek that made a spiky little creature run to the other side of the branch.

"Don't be alarmed, Renée," the Doctor straightened up and patted her hand curled around his arm. "It's an ancestor of hedgehogs. A tenrec!"

Gabby and Donna were quick to snicker behind the Time Lady. Hearing them, Renata snapped her head at them. "Shut it!"

"It's harmless," the Doctor assured her.

"Yeah? Then you go pick it up," Renata said without thinking, because if she had been thinking about it she wouldn't have said such a foolish thing. The Doctor would take it as a challenge.

"I will," he, predictably, said.

"No, wait, Doctor!" Renata said as he was already pulling his arm out of her hold. "Doctor, I didn't mean it - get back here!"

The Doctor smirked at her and hopped over the branch. He followed the branch to the edge and squatted down in front of the tenrec which, in all honesty, couldn't have been bigger than his palm.

"Doctor, maybe Ren's right," Gabby crinkled her nose at the spiky creature. "You might get poked. We should leave it alone."

"Let him touch it, see what happens," Donna smirked similarly to the Doctor.

Renata almost smacked her forehead - those two were definitely a good match when it came to being reckless. At least her companion seemed to have caught onto sensibility. Gabby was right at her side while Donna drifted towards the Doctor.

"There we are, hi there!" the Doctor had the tenrec on his palm. He straightened up and moved around the branch to show the women the harmless creature. "You wouldn't hurt anyone, would you?"

"He's kind of cute," Donna admitted when the Doctor had come beside her. "Though you can't make me hold it!"

"Gabby, Renata, come see," the Doctor carefully let the tenrec crawl to his other palm.

"I am not getting close to it," Renata crossed her arms, almost sounding like she was huffing.

"No reason to be afraid of it-"

"I am not afraid of it!"

"Then come look at it."

"I don't want to."

The Doctor couldn't help the small smirk tugging at his lips. "Renata, it's not bigger than my palm. You're a grown woman, I promise you that it will not hurt you. Don't be afraid."

Renata's eyes blazed with anger at his disbelief. "I am not afraid!"

Donna shared a knowing smile with Gabby. She was too afraid.

"I'm not standing for this!" Renata exclaimed and, with an actual huff now, she started walking in the direction they'd come in.

"Oh, Renata!" the Doctor chuckled and carefully set the tenrec back on the branch. "Take care dear," he said to it then rushed off behind Renata. "Renée, come back."

"I'm going back to the TARDIS!"

But as much as she would've liked to stomp quickly, the snow-covered ground had another thing to say. It eventually led to the Doctor being able to grab her arm and stop her.

"Very mature for a 700 year old Time Lady," his mouth twitched as if he was restraining himself...and he was. He wanted to smirk at her for her behavior but doing that would just make her want to keep walking away. "How's about we get some snacks?"

Renata pulled her arm from his grip and huffed. "There's no snacks around here you idiot."

"Yeah there are, look!" the Doctor pointed up above them. Renata raised her head to see dangling apples from the trees. "I bet I can get some down for us."

"Please don't," Renata returned her gaze to him, now clear of anger but with concern quickly filling her features.

"I can do it, no problem!"

"Do what?" Donna asked once she and Gabby caught up with them.

"The Doctor wants to get some apples down for us," Renata wearily eyed the man heading for the closest tree.

"Oh! I could do with an apple!" Gabby's eyes gleamed at the idea of a fresh apple after so much walking.

"Doctor, these are some very tall trees," Renata warned but the Doctor was already climbing his way up a tree.

"I have climbed trees, you know," he calmly called from above. She rolled her eyes. "Get ready to catch some apples." He reached for a branch on his left side and started shaking it as much as he could.

"They're not falling!" Donna frowned, unimpressed with his hunting skills. "We'd starve if food was up to you."

The Doctor paused to glower down at her. "Thanks." He sucked in a deep breath and attempted to entirely move to the branch.

"Doctor, please be careful," he heard Renata's pleas. She honestly worried too much over them, but that was just her.

He successfully got on the branch but he could feel it wobbling with his weight. He needed to be quick about it so he started pushing the apples off its roots so they could fall. He smiled when he started hearing Gabby's gleeful cries after catching an apple.

"Doctor, get down now!" came Renata's cry.

"Yeah, alright!" He managed to stand up and, for a minute, paused to admire the snowy land. "You know, the sight is pretty beautiful from up here."

"DOCTOR!"

He winced. He better get down or Renata might self-combust one of these days. It was fairly amusing how quickly her rosy face would redden whenever he would irritate her, but sometimes he wondered if she would actually burst from all their episodes.

"I'm coming, I'm coming," he stepped towards the stump he'd have to climb down on but the branch wobbled and sent his right foot to the side. "Ah!" he cried and scrambled to grab onto another. His hands flailed for the stump but in his attempts to grab it, his forehead hit the bark instead and down he went.

"Doctor!" Renata cried when she saw the Doctor's body falling down. Their companions screamed when he crashed onto the ground, splashing snow bits all over them. "No, no, no, no!" Renata hurried to his side, letting her knees fall to the ground next to his head. Straightaway she could see an ugly gash across his forehead. Renata's hands trembled as they checked him for any other injuries.

"Is he going to be alright?" Donna worriedly watched Renata pull her hand from under the Doctor's head. She, and Gabby, gasped when they saw blood dripping from Renata's fingers.

"Oh my God!" Gabby's hands flung to her mouth. "What do we do!? What do we do!?"

"Shush," Renata hissed. She was about to push some of her hair out of her face when she remembered the blood on her fingers. With a sigh, she flapped her hand to get rid of it. "He's out could and the TARDIS is too far away to carry him to.

"Okay, so what do we?" asked Donna. Her eyes were scanning their immediate area with fear. "We we can't exactly stay here can we? It's the olden ages - there could be dinosaurs!"

Renata rolled her eyes. "For the last time, we are not in the dinosaur age, Donn! There are no dinosaurs!"

"Renata, what do we do?" Gabby bent down beside the Time Lady. She could Renata was afraid as well, perhaps not on the same level as Donna, but she was still afraid. They needed to help her, not add more to her problems.

"We need some extra muscle," Renata decided after a few minutes of pondering. "Go find anyone - literally anyone - and get them here. If we're lucky we might be near some type of civilization we can camp out at before the cold really strikes."

"Okay," Gabby straightened on her feet and moved towards Donna.

"What are you going to do?" Donna inquired from the Time Lady.

"What I need to do: stay with him," Renata looked down at the Doctor and smiled softly. "I can't leave him alone." Not again.

~0~

It was nearing sunset when Gabby and Donna returned with help. It was one lone man but he was strong enough and, apparently, a doctor as well.

"Is that a wolf?" Renata panicked the moment she saw the gray creature roaming around them.

"He's good, Ren," Donna made a nod at the man with them. "Comes with him."

"I know of none like you," the man remarked as he studied the group one by one. "But I have seen many strange things over the past few moon tides."

"I'll file that under 'explain later'. Right now, would you please help us?" Renata rose from the ground. "He really is-" she gestured to the Doctor, "-a smart man but he just does...incredibly stupid stuff." And said stupid stuff could be stemmed back to her because he'd gone off climbing trees to get apples down for her in an attempt to get back on her good side.

The man bore no expression that would indicate whether or not he would definitely help. He bent down beside the Doctor, checking on the two injuries he sustained but he never made a comment. It made Renata nervous. What she was supposed to do if he refused in the end?

"I have fresh water and healing herbs," the man suddenly said. "We'll bathe your friend's wounds."

Donna loudly sighed in relief. "Oh thank God. For a second I thought you said 'bathe him'! I did not sign up for that!"

Renata shook her head, wanting to be upset for Donna's imprudence but she found it hard not to laugh instead.

"Your friends said he is a medicine man," the man looked directly at Renata. "You did not leave him. I assume you are you his wife?"

Renata's eyes widened, comically if Gabby had to describe it. "I am not not."

"You sure act like a married couple," Donna mumbled behind her.

"Stop talking," Renata hissed and addressed the man instead. "I am not his wife, but I am a very close friend. You will help us, then?"

The man nodded. "Of course. Your friend needs rest. My home is far but I know a place we can shelter."

"Please lead the way," Renata urgently said.

The man easily picked up the Doctor's body and led the way through the woods. At least it seemed like he knew the area because in two minutes he had led them out of the maze of trees and onto a clear plain.

"I too am a healer, a Shaman," the man began to share with them. Perhaps it was a way to warm up to the three women who continued looking nervous. "Though some would say I am not a wise man."

"Then you would definitely get along with the Doctor," Renata was the first to respond.

"What's your name?" Gabby peered in front of Renata to see the man.

"I'm Munmeth, of the Wolf Tree Clan."

"Nice to meet you," Gabby grinned and even waved. "I'm Gabby. That's Donna and this is Renata."

"What were you doing so far into the woods?" Munmeth asked.

"Gabby thought it would be a fun idea to explore the woods," Donna tugged her coat closet to her. "It was not."

"What - we did see some cool stuff!" Gabby exclaimed. "Remember that bee hive? Those could not be just bees!"

"They weren't," Renata confirmed. "Ancestors of bees."

"Bees?" mused Munmeth. "Ah, like the makers of honey? That's why you are scented so. Longclaw - my wolfhound - she likes your smell."

Renata's eyes widened when she noticed the wolf right behind them. "Oh... that's nice." She wasn't really one for animals in this incarnation.

"She's kinda cute," Gabby admitted but Renata immediately scolded her.

"Don't touch her!"

Munmeth brought them into a deep cave and carefully settled the Doctor on the ground. He started using some herbs for the cuts on his forehead and under his head. Renata was right behind him, watching every movement of his as if to make sure he wasn't further hurting the Doctor.

"He should be fine," Munmenth declared after what seemed like an eternity for Renata.

"Really?" Renata didn't waste a moment and quickly bent down beside the Doctor.

"He will probably sleep for the night but he will wake up," Munmeth assured her and the others. "I will bring something to eat for you all. Do not leave the cave."

"No problem," promised Donna as she scuttled into a deeper crook of the cave to get some warmth.

Before he left, Munmeth created a fire so they could keep warm. Donna and Gabby settled around it while Renata remained by the Doctor's side.

"So, what exactly is our plan now?" Donna asked Renata a few minutes after they were left alone.

The Time Lady did not answer as she was tending to the Doctor on the ground. Her fingers gingerly grazed the deep cut across his forehead but even that still left her fingertips with some blood. Munmeth had helped the injuries dry up but still seeing the cuts made Renata feel like there was still something wrong with the Doctor. She couldn't stand it.

"Sorry Doctor, she whispered when she had made her choice. She wasn't sure how the Doctor would react to it but why debate when it was the only sensible, reasonable thing to do?

She readied her right hand and let it hover over the Doctor's forehead. As soon as it started glowing orange, Gabby and Donna went wide eyed.

"What's happening!?" Gabby was concerned and, first and foremost, scared now Renata was getting hurt too.

"I'm just helping the healing process go quicker," Renata said quietly. She could feel her regeneration energy oozing from her fingertips and she was mighty relieved to see the cut on the Doctor's forehead closing up. She then slid her hand under his head and let her fingers search for the second cut. In another moment, she would've blushed like mad raking her fingers through his hair. But right now, she just wanted him to be okay. In a matter of seconds, he was completely healed.

"Is he going to wake up now?" Donna asked afterwards.

"No, it was still a pretty harsh fall but at least this way I know for sure he'll be okay," Renata smiled at the unconscious man. "He's had plenty worse without me and he's survived."

Donna watched the woman as she took off her pink coat and rolled it up into a pseudo-pillow to put under the Doctor's head. It was done in such a tender way that Donna just had to ask, "How long have you truly known the Doctor?"

The question was startling until Renata remembered that there was no way Donna could know anything about her first incarnation. "What do you mean, Donna? I've known him for about a year."

"Nu-uh," Donna wasn't afraid to scoff and correct her. "The way you treat him - especially right now - tells me that you have known him far longer than just a year."

"Well if you want to be technical then I guess it'd be 2 years what with the whole year-that-never-happened," shrugged Renata but once again Donna scoffed.

"Do you take me for an idiot?"

Renata blinked at the sudden snap and glanced to see the ginger giving her a rather sharp look. "I didn't mean to…"

Donna dramatically sighed and wrapped her coat closet to her body. "C'mon Ren, just asking a question. I bet Gabby's thinking about it too."

At the mention of her name, Gabby awkwardly smiled at the two. She didn't want to get in-between. Plus, she already had a lot in mind concerning Renata and the Doctor.

"Donna, it's really not that big of a deal. I, uh, happened to know a friend that was really close to the Doctor back on Gallifrey," Renata did her best to sound and even appear casual.

"What friend?" Donna narrowed her eyes on the blonde. She didn't know a lot about the Doctor's life on Gallifrey but she knew enough to know that he couldn't have many friends on that planet since he traveled a lot.

"Just...a friend. We worked together at a charity foundation," Renata looked away so that her widened eyes wouldn't be seen. She was really building lie after lie and it was becoming easier too. That scared her.

But suddenly Donna's own eyes widened. "You knew Zuriah!?"

"What!?" Renata nearly fell back from shock. "How do you know about her!?"

"Doctor told me a couple of days ago."

He was becoming very loose lipped on that subject. It was as if once she opened up about 'knowing Zuriah', the Doctor felt more comfortable bringing her out of the shadows.

"Who's that?" Gabby's question broke the silence in the cave. Her eyes were flickering between Renata and Donna.

Before Renata could come up with a practical explanation, Donna made it short and thorough.

"The Doctor's old flame."

"Donna!" went Renata soon after. She hid her face from them when she felt the damn heat return. Old flame? The words brought a wave of butterflies in her stomach whether she wanted them or not.

"What?"

Renata heavily sighed. She brought a hand to her forehead and rubbed circles over her skin before a headache formed. She couldn't believe she was really having this conversation with them. "She was...someone the Doctor really cared for and she's also someone I happened to know. Therefore, I didn't know the Doctor back then but I knew of him."

Donna tilted her head at the woman, almost looking like she was trying to decide whether or not to believe her. It concerned Renata, honestly, because why wouldn't Donna want to believe her? Had she done something to make Donna doubt her words?

"I guess that makes sense but it's just the way you act Ren," Donna's voice softened. Her eyes flickered from Renata to the Doctor and vice versa. "You are the complete opposite of the Doctor, yet sometimes you're so...soft with him."

Renata tried her best not to appear so nervous but her warm face was sure to give her up sooner or later. "I'm just a friend, Donna."

"Is that all you want to be?"

Renata practically froze. Gabby was sure that Renata's eyes would definitely pop from her head because of how wide they were. Renata turned her head away from the two companions, the unconscious Doctor, and took in a deep breath. "No, Donna," she surprisingly answered in one go and without sounding upset. "I am a friend, nothing more. Now I firmly believe it is time for us to rest."

"But we haven't had dinner yet," Donna said in confusion.

"I don't think you'll want to eat raw animal meat." Renata may not have expressed an angry tone but her hard face said it all. She made herself a spot near the Doctor's body and laid her head over her arms. If she was lucky, she would get a few hours of sleep and thus evade Donna's torturous questions.

"I don't think you should've asked Renata all those questions," Gabby spoke to Donna when Renata finally dozed off.

"Why not? Made her think, dinnit?" Donna replied with a proud smirk on her face.

"That was your point?"

"Not specifically but it was a bonus. Look," Donna shifted on her spot to better face Gabby, "I know it's not just me who sees these odd behaviors. You see it too but you don't want to say anything."

"I-I mean... it's not really my place," Gabby said. If it was then she would've told the Doctor herself about Renata's fate prediction.

"Sometimes we have to give a little push in order to get results, no matter how many ugly looks you get from the Time Lady," Donna nodded to Renata. "I've come to figure out Renata's type. She's proper, too proper to do anything. And the Doctor is the opposite. He'll do everything and sometimes that's scary for people like Renata."

"Okay...but what exactly are you trying to get another to do?"

"Whatever she needs to do but hasn't. I suspect Renata is hiding something but I don't know what."

Gabby wondered if Donna was talking about the prediction because, if not...what else did Renata have to hide? She glanced at Renata's sleeping form. Renata was pretty old (technically) so perhaps there were plenty of things to hide.

~ 0 ~

When the Doctor woke up, the first thing he remembered were apples. He'd been climbing a tree to get apples but now he was in a...cave? It looked like a cave. After a few minutes of him just blinking at the cave's ceiling, he started to remember what happened to him during his attempt to get apples.

'Renata is definitely going to kill me this,' he thought and as soon as he realized his thought his mind flashed to the Time Lady. "Ren!" He sat upright only to find Renata fast asleep a few inches from him. He spotted Donna and Gabby sleeping on the other side of fire that was no longer burning, but his eyes flickered back to Renata. She was so close to him - he wondered if she'd been like this all night and he didn't even notice!

Why would you have want to notice? A little voice in his head asked. There would be nothing to it.

The Doctor then noticed Renata's pink coat neatly folded on the ground. It'd been his pillow. Oh Renata. She was always caring for him and everyone else around her, even when the Doctor knew they drove her mad. It was such a kind quality that he didn't see in anyone else. He felt his hearts swell thinking about how she came to decide giving up her coat for him.

So, he made his own decisions. He took her coat and gently slid it under her head. She only shifted a bit and continued to sleep. Then, the Doctor took his own coat off and laid it over her body. As soon as she had felt the extra layer over her, Renata pulled it closer to her. The Doctor smiled at her and decided to figure out where they were...as quietly as possible.

A few hours later, Renata started stirring awake. She could feel the warmth of the sun on her face but she actually felt pretty comfortable where she was. Along with the warmth on her face, she felt an extra layer of heat over her body. Maybe she could stay right where she was for a bit more...

"...that lasts thousands of years and thousands of moon tides under the right conditions…"

Renata groaned. That was definitely an alarm. She snapped her eyes open and sat upright.

"Ah, Renée!" the Doctor was up and talking to Munmeth. "You're up!"

"Yeah and…" Renata yawned, "...so are you. Your head-"

"-all fine, see?" the Doctor pointed to the injured spot on his forehead that no longer bore any cut. "Thanks to our friend here, Munmeth!" He made a gesture at the man sitting near the campfire.

Renata needed a few more minutes to gather her bearings. She slept more than she'd planned to and her body wasn't really used to such a thing. "What is this…?" she lifted the familiar brown trench coat off her body and held it to the Doctor.

"You looked kind of cold earlier," he walked over to take it back then held a hand for her. She grabbed it and got up from the ground. "Thanks for the help yesterday. Donna and Gabby told me you stayed with me. They also told me that you used your regeneration energy on me."

Renata awkwardly nodded and looked around for the two blabbers. She spotted the two huddled near the fireplace and glared at them. They quickly dove their gazes to the fire. "Right, well, you would've done the same."

"Of course," the Doctor instantly said, momentarily startling Renata with his quickness to agree. There he went again making such statements. But it wasn't like he had to think about it, especially when he learned she'd willingly used her regeneration energy on him. That was limited, even more so now that it was just them and she'd chosen to use it on two petty injuries of his. "Thank you," he smiled softly at her.

Renata nodded her head and matched the Doctor's smile with her own. She silently screamed at her hearts to slow down though because at the rate they were going, they might burst from her chest.

Donna nudged Gabby and nodded towards the pair. "That's what I mean," she whispered to Gabby since neither alien had looked away from each other. They seemed stuck in their endless smiling. Gabby could agree in that moment, but she probably wouldn't be so outspoken like Donna.

"Well, thank you Munmeth," Renata turned to Munmeth with a warm smile. "I truly am grateful for your help." Munmeth gave an acknowledging nod. Renata looked around and noticed the cave drawings on a wall that most certainly wasn't there the previous night.

"I'm a signmaker," Munmeth said since he noticed where her looks were.

"Drawing...one of the first and oldest forms of technologies," Renata mused over the odd pictures. A lot of it seemed like a bunch of squiggles and circles but she was sure it meant a lot more to Munmeth.

"I make signs, or fire dances, to try to trap the things I see in memory," Munmeth explained.

"Symbolic thinking," hummed the Doctor.

"I see many things for which I have no words. Yet the way you both speak is as clear as running water. I begin to see your meanings, inside my head."

Renata had to chuckle as she said, "You're understanding the Doctor?" she pointed at the man. "That's a true talent."

The Doctor only briefly glared at her while both Donna and Gabby snickered behind. He shook his head at them and redirected his attention to Munmeth. "Munmeth, my friend, you are so ahead of your time!"

"You're an artist," Gabby said with a grin. "And I identify with that. I want to be an artist too."

Munmeth nodded but he seemed preoccupied with his drawings, as if something perturbed him.

"You alright?" asked Donna.

"These curved things...almost as a full moon…" he traced his fingers over the circles on the wall, "...but flat like a river pebble, each one riding upon the wind itself. They're hunters from the sky. They took some of the river people as they speared fish."

"Speared fish?" repeated Renata. She glanced at the Doctor to see if he'd caught on as well. "The fishing village we saw before the mammoths."

"Mhm," he agreed. It had looked like a pleasant, normal village.

"So, what are these?" Gabby had gotten up from the ground to go point at the red circles on the wall.

"Others," answered Munmeth. "Not the sky hunters. I have seen these only once."

"But we haven't," Donna muttered and looked up at the pair of aliens. "Right?"

"They're fighting…?" the Doctor presumed.

"When they came, they follow the sky hunters and I heard noises like A storm. Little fires burst across the air. The spearfishers called me as they were taken. I know them - Kria, Meerok, Nekma. They called out for help...and I ran." There was a deep sorrow laced with guilt etched across Munmeth's face. It was clear he regretted his actions but even then it probably wouldn't have matter if he'd stayed or not. What he saw was not of this world.

"There is no shame in that, Munmeth," the Doctor said as a means of comfort. It was understandable.

"I ran," Munmeth repeated himself with more harshness. "I am Munmeth of of the Wolf Tree Clan. I've faced lions, hyenas, long tusks! I do not run away! The River people's clan Elder asked me for help, to find others to aid them against the sky hunters. But, none will help or they have been taken. I want to protect my own clan from the sky hunters too."

"Well, lucky we ran into you then!" the Doctor declared happily. "We'll help you, Munmeth!"

Munmeth stared at him like he was crazy. "You will?"

The Doctor didn't falter. "Of course! Right?" he checked for Renata's opinion then Donna's and Gabby's. They all seemed on board, including Renata.

"Of course," Renata smiled kindly at the stunned Munmeth. "You helped us when we needed it. It's only fair we return the favor."

~0~

Munmeth led the group into the River Clan's village only to find it desolate. Despite searching through the tents and even in the immediate area, they found no one.

"We must hurry! I want to make sure my own clan are safe!" Munmeth took charge again and hurried out of the village.

"What do you think happened to them?" Donna whispered to the Doctor and Renata.

"Maybe it's just extinction," Gabby's uncharacteristically sour answer gathered the attention of the group quite fast. She did a double take when she noticed their reactions. "What? I just…" she sighed, "I don't like using the word neanderthal to describe Munmeth but that's what he is. And we all know what happens to them...they die. We, Sapiens, drive them to extinction, right?"

"Gabby," Renata smiled sadly at the girl full of unnecessary guilt. "I don't really think it's because of 'Sapiens'. I think it's just evolution that does it all." She checked her facts with the Doctor, while also silently begging for his help. The last thing she wanted was for Gabby to blame herself of something she had no control over.

"Honestly, no one really knows," the Doctor said. "It didn't happen suddenly. It occurred slowly, over thousands of years. In the end, I think they just got out-competed by your lot. You can overtake evolution by rapidly modifying yourselves and the way you think."

"But we're not better," Gabby shook her head. "I mean...Sapiens... we're... we're aggressive, violent...my lot and a whole bunch of other species out there in the cosmos, right?"

"I mean...she does make a point," Donna quietly inputted her opinion on the matter. She wasn't as animated as Gabby but she did agree on most of what she was saying. "We developed but...are we any better? The way Munmeth thinks... he's a lot better than most of the blokes I've met."

"I think we're getting a little bit agitated over the wrong things," Renata sighed.

"When you-" Gabby pointed a gloved finger at the Doctor, "-go on about how great humanity's potential is, what you really mean is how great Homo Sapiens' potential is."

"Now that is not true," Renata said before the Doctor even opened his mouth. Her eyebrows had furrowed together in irritation. "You have no bloody idea how much this idiot loves this planet and all of its people. And I do mean all."

The Doctor smiled at Renata in wide grin. "Well thanks for that, Renée." The blonde Time Lady rolled her eyes playfully. The Doctor then turned his attention to Gabby who was still distraught. "Time travelers, it gets to you sometimes. Nothing you feel is bad, just...perhaps out of proportion."

Gabby could agree there. These were thoughts she that she would've never had of she hadn't met the Doctor and Renata. But even then she didn't regret anything. She'd rather be here than stuck at home in the laundromat and the restaurant. She would just have to learn to take things in a better way.

"Noomin!" Munmeth's sudden cry pulled the group's attention ahead. Munmeth had found an elderly woman climbing down from a higher ground. "Noomin! What are you doing here!?"

"Oh Munmeth, you've returned!" the woman cried and hurried to Munmeth.

"Noomin, where is Muthmunna?"

"I'm sorry-"

"-sorry? Where is she?" Munmeth asked again, though more urgently. "I told you to go with her to the Shaman's caves!"

"The whole clan did as you said!" Noomin promised. She seemed far too distraught for someone wandering alone in the woods. "Then the Sky Hunters came. They flew over us as we walked. Like great birds, and everyone ran and…" she trailed off when she saw the travelers catching up.

"Is everyone alright!?" Renata quickly asked and looked around for any obvious danger zones.

"Newcomers," Noomin blinked. "So strange…"

"They are friends," Munmeth clarified. "Now where is Muthmunna?"

Noomin got lost in anger. She pushed Munmeth away from her and exclaimed, "I'm sorry Munmeth! No one can help against death! Muthmunna was taken by the Sky Hunters! They were all taken! They didn't take me or old Rigro. He fell and smashed his head and I ran for my life."

"That sounds...gruesome," Donna whispered to Gabby who quickly nodded in shared fear.

"I thought they'd be safe at the Shaman's caves," Munmeth said in confusion. He seemed lost, hope dwindling as the reality set.

Noomin shook her head. "You should all run too!" And she took off into the woods.

"Who is Muthmunna?" asked Gabby, but Munmeth didn't answer.

The Doctor took in a deep breath and exhaled with a "Right!" coming out of his mouth. He pulled out his sonic and started examining the area. "Now this might look very strange to you Munmeth, but this is just a special kind of fire to protect us."

"Doctor, what are you doing?" asked Donna.

"I'm giving us a fake biometric signature. Those Antigrav discs that are kidnapping people are very picky about who they are choosing, so I'm making sure they'll be taking us next time they appear."

Donna stared at him for a few seconds, only blinking as a reaction, then turned to Renata. "What's he doing?"

"The Sky Hunters are aliens," Renata shrugged. "He's making us look very appealing."

"Well I think it's working cos look over there!" Gabby cried out with a finger pointed up at the sky.

The group turned their heads up to the sky to see spaceships zooming by.

"This is going to be a rough ride, everyone," the Doctor warned them as he put away his sonic. "And don't run."

"Are you kidding me!?" Donna exclaimed.

One of the spaceships released two yellow string-looking pieces.

"Energy nets!" the Doctor recognized them first. "Hang on-" Said yellow strings wrapped him up in two seconds.

"Doctor!" Renata called after him as he was yanked up into the sky.

"Renata, we're seriously not supposed to run!?" Gabby cowered behind the Time Lady. She didn't want those string things to take her too.

Munmeth was next on the list and went up to the sky. Renata breathed heavily but she knew this was the Doctor's plan. If they wanted to know what was happening, they needed to be taken away.

"Yes, don't run," Renata hated the answer, but no one more than Gabby.

"Ren, you better be right about this - AAAH!" Donna screamed when the nets wrapped her body like a present.

Renata closed her eyes and allowed herself to be taken as well. Gabby was the last one, but she did try to run for a few seconds before she pulled into the sky.

"Gabby, don't fight it!" the Doctor called from his next prison. Each spaceship now had butterfly nets underneath it, carrying each prisoner like a butterfly.

Gabby squirmed as the strings moved her around to trap her in a net like the others. But one wrong (or perhaps right) move ripped one of the next around her waist.

"GABBY!" Renata screamed when she saw the young girl fall from the net's hold. She shook her own net urgently as if ripping hers would somehow help Gabby.

A different type of spaceship - resembling - a rocketship - zipped by in time to catch Gabby in a blue field. As soon as it had Gabby captured, the spaceship fired against the Sky Hunter ships.

"Doctor, we have to get to Gabby!" Renata cried but their concern was short-lived because each of their nets released two more 'strings' that attached to their temples.

Gabby was horrified (and terrified) to see all of her friends scream in pain until they were out cold. The war between the Sky Hunter ships and the rocketship went on for a bit more until one Sky Hunter ship went down.

"You disgusting impostor," Gabby suddenly heard a voice insult her. Gabby hadn't realized when she was brought into the spaceship, but there was an eerie blue surrounding her.

"I-I thought I was getting rescued here," she said, trying to find courage she did not own in that moment.

"Rescued?" the same voice scoffed. "What a filthy trick "

"Let's just atomize her and be done with it," went a second voice.

Gabby almost squeaked in terror. "There is no trick, possibly a misunderstanding but definitely no trick!" She wanted to stand but the field was still around her and she couldn't very well see outside of it. "My name's Gabby."

"You are not a native to this place. Explain," the first voice commanded.

"Kind of wrong there," Gabby nervously smiled. "I am a native here. Trust me."

"No!" roared the second voice, making the girl flinch. "We already exposed your fraudulent biometric cloak."

"Oh, that was just a disguise to confuse the, we, Sky Hunters. You know, the big frisbees, the Antigrav Discs."

"I knew it!" a third voice exclaimed. "She's in league with them!"

Gabby shivered when the field began to drop around her. Her chest heaved hard once she saw the group that'd been talking to her. A team of...aliens?

"We have to kill her right now!"

#doctor who #10th doctor #ocappreciation #ocapp #dw imagines #10th doctor imagines #doctor who imagines #dw imagine #doctor who fics #10th doctor fics #donna noble #tardis #gabby gonzalez #oc: Renata Cartwright #fic: the beginning of everything #noblecrescentedit

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